business model?

[Sinistral]

I'm wondering about the viability of trying to build/flip FFR vehicles for those not wishing to build their own. Surely there are people out there doing just that — would love to hear feedback (admittedly I'm in early stages of even thinking about this idea). I'm just about finished building a hot rod truck of my own from the ground up (not a kit), and the idea of using a complete kit from FFR is certainly appealing.

Guess I'm also wondering what the market value is for these cars, and whether there would be a reasonable ROI for a one-man operation to try to compete?

Again, just thinking out loud at this point, and will start some Google-research of my own but would appreciate any insight from those of you building these cars (for yourself or others).

I think I first requested the DVD maybe 15 years ago, and each year the itch gets stronger. :)

Thanks in advance.

[wareaglescott]

Mike Everson seems to build a lot of customer cars.

My general feeling when I was building mine vs looking at the offerings for sale was I could of bought a nice one for probably 75% of what it cost me to build one and that was with zero cost for labor(other than the body/paint I hired out) I did do a higher cost build with the options, drive train and paint job I choose. For me though it was about building my own. I have had numerous requests on my Cobra instagram account to build for others but there is no way I could build one and pay myself anywhere close to what my time is worth in the real world and have the total cost be anywhere close to market value. Somebody would have to be a sucker to buy one at what I think it would be worth in my time to build one. With that being said the more you build I am sure the more you could refine your process and put out a product with increasing quality in a faster timeframe. Maybe that would close the cost/value gap down. Mike obviously makes money doing it but it must be a tight market.

[Sinistral]

that's kinda what i was thinking... seems over the years when i've looked the (used) roadsters are often in the $40K range, and of course depending on motor/tranny, you could probably expect to hit that number pretty easily before much (if any) labor was taken into account after you've plopped down $20K for the complete kit.

i'll look for posts by mike (is that his screen name, too?) — i'd be curious what a "typical" build time is for someone once they've done a previous car.

i'd definitely jump on the build school, should i decide to try this venture someday.


Mike Everson seems to build a lot of customer cars.

My general feeling when I was building mine vs looking at the offerings for sale was I could of bought a nice one for probably 75% of what it cost me to build one and that was with zero cost for labor(other than the body/paint I hired out) I did do a higher cost build with the options, drive train and paint job I choose. For me though it was about building my own. I have had numerous requests on my Cobra instagram account to build for others but there is no way I could build one and pay myself anywhere close to what my time is worth in the real world and have the total cost be anywhere close to market value. Somebody would have to be a sucker to buy one at what I think it would be worth in my time to build one. With that being said the more you build I am sure the more you could refine your process and put out a product with increasing quality in a faster timeframe. Maybe that would close the cost/value gap down. Mike obviously makes money doing it but it must be a tight market.

[Just puttering]

Are you retired, would this be your primary job. Also what do you need in wages to survive.

It would seem to be a cool buisness, but probably hard to do when you run the numbers. If you already had an operating buisness in the auto trade, maybe it would be easier?

The hard part is with any brand of vehicle like this, you need name recognition. If you really want to do this, try it. Just dont loose your house funding it!!!

[wareaglescott]

User name is michael everson

I would also have liability concerns about building a car for someone they might kill themselves in and if a mechanical failure of some sort could come back to you. Not sure if that is a legit concern but that has crossed my mind as well. Wonder how custom builders handle that.

[michael everson]

I have built over 100 FFR cars. Its rare that I build them to resell. There just isn't any money in it. Of those 100 builds probably 6 were for resale. The rest already had owners. The only way I can do it and make money is to buy the kit or partially completed kit at a really good price. I don't even get interested in buying them until they are half the price of the original cost. Also too many variables when buying an unfinished kit. Missing parts, poor build quality, shipping etc. If you look at all the big numbers when buying a new kit and drivetrain, its easy to see why it cannot be done with all new stuff. Also, if you paint it blue, everyone will want red. If you put a big block in it everyone will want a Coyote. You just cant win.
Mike

[Jeff Kleiner]

I never build on speculation, only to order. I've considered doing so a couple of times when deals popped up but the timing either didn't work or Mike beat me to it! :) As he said he rarely builds on speculation and even then it's only if he can start with a deal. I know another pro who has built on spec a couple of times and come out OK but he's usually had some special circumstances in play, is super efficient and knows where his break even is before beginning. Building to order is no risk as long as you know going in what your expenditure of time is going to be then it becomes kit+parts+your labor=total build cost.

Jeff

[FFinisher]

I never build on speculation, only to order. I've considered doing so a couple of times when deals popped up but the timing either didn't work or Mike beat me to it! :) As he said he rarely builds on speculation and even then it's only if he can start with a deal. I know another pro who has built on spec a couple of times and come out OK but he's usually had some special circumstances in play, is super efficient and knows where his break even is before beginning. Building to order is no risk as long as you know going in what your expenditure of time is going to be then it becomes kit+parts+your labor=total build cost.

Jeff

Yeah, what he said.

Think of it like a House. Build a spec house. You get whatever the market drives.

Build a custom house. Electrical outlets are $250 a piece, if you want them you pay for them. If you don't pay for them, you don't get them.


FWIW- This feels like going to a diner and asking them for the their best recipe.

[TexasAviator]

I feel like it would be more feasible if time were not a factor. Can you build a custom wire harness for less than a premade one? Where can you cut costs. I did a very thorough cost benefit analysis and built a car on a tight budget with power brakes and steering. Had an 8 speaker sound system and complete car minus paint for about 23k. This is a great start but took me two years to get there. I'm not sure it would be worth the time vs benefit. If it's for fun that is different but it's not a sustainable business model.

[Presto51]

Food for thought to go along with all of the good answers that have been given:

Talk\interview someone that is in the business, couple that come to mind on the forum is Mark Dougherty, aka The Traveling Builder, also Jeff Miller aka Da Bat and see if they would talk to you about this type of business. Then do the same for some of the named hot rod builders that have made it. Looks like your in Golden CO, check out Pinky's Hot Rods etc.

Figure out what your end game would look like, if you looking to become the next millionaire, I don't think this would workout for you.

Be prepared to promote the daylights out of your business, going to a lot of shows with a good example of your work, meet and greet the folks in the crowd. Keep in mind most of the big name hot rod builders took about average 15 years to become an over night success.

This game is not easy, but it helps if you have a lot of passion and a good plan.

Ron

[Sinistral]

Thanks, all, for the insight…

I think the smart plan is to finish my current ground-up (non-FFR) build, and then actually build a FFR kit for myself and see firsthand what is involved (and also how much profit it might be flipped for afterward). My gut told me that this idea probably wasn't very feasible (certainly possible, but likely not ideal at least for my circumstances).

I just found Michael's thread about his new(?) space — wow! Glad to see he is making it work, but I suspect I would have a much harder time.

(As an aside, I'm inferring from Michael's post that there must be people who buy a kit but then bail on the project and sell at a loss?? I'm a bit surprised to hear that (other than the occasional "life circumstances" event), but sounds like it must happen more than I imagine if that's how folks are funding these customer builds.)

Anyway, maybe you'll see a build thread from me in late 2019 or early 2020.

:cool:

Cheers!

[TDSapp]

I bet that you will find that there are many projects that are bought, started and then later sold. Probably more than we hear about here on the forum. Most are probably sold on local forums or a Craigslist type sale.

Even then, Mike said that out of the 100 he has build that only around 6 of them were bought and built this way. Most of his jobs are where someone has bought the kit and shipped it to him to be built. You would have to become known as a builder or be willing to take over a project for an owner to deliver a finished car. You have to be the guy that is better than the local hot rod shop to get them to be willing to send the car cross country for you to build it. Then you have to be just as good or better than the other guys who do the same thing. Mike Everson, Jeff Klinger, Raptor Speedworks to name a few. It's some big hurdles to overcome.