Subaru POWER Q&A

[Inthenameofweez]

I'd like to start a thread offering my experience and intelligence on how/why/what to do with your WRX engine/transmission before throwing it in this 818.

Obviously the car isn't on the streets yet. So we can't plan too heavily, but I know that the WRX powertrain is confirmed. Drivetrain will more than likely include a 6MT simply because people will make it work.
My goal is to answer any questions on what is a good idea and what isn't with these engines. I've had a lot of experience (sometimes with no choice) with rebuilding the transmissions AND engines of my 2004 WRX. I feel that I am qualified to make a few recommendations and answer any questions. That being said, please understand that most of my posts and answers to any questions in this thread will more than likely pertain to a PERFORMANCE intent.

Just to start off: the 2.0L WRX block is a fantastic engine and is very capable by itself. Especially in such a light car. However, it should be noted that the 2.5L STi SHORTBLOCK bolts up to the 2.0L heads with no modifications needed other than tuning and the 2.5L headgaskets. Other parts are recommended for better durability (oiling system, turbo, intercooler) but are not needed. The 2.5L offers more torque, especially when applying bolt-ons and the STi turbo. IMHO, they should always be paired together for the entire package. Some could argue that the AVCS (Variable cam sprockets) is also needed to complete the package, but those require more wiring and oiling system modifications in order to function as intended.

Also, note that the ECU used in Subaru's turbocharged engines uses a MAF based fuel system calibration. Meaning, a change in the air intake system is going to affect the fuel injector scaling and will modify AFR. To avoid this, use only OEM parts POST MAF with an OEM tune. Cobb's Stage 2 tunes come with options for intake systems. These should be utilized with the corresponding intake tube. However, a custom calibration is always preferred, as the OTS (Off the Shelf) calibrations will always leave something on the table for safety and general applicability. Post turbo leaks are also very tricky because they will not be caught by the ECU. Rich conditions and underboosting are always an indication of a boost leak.

As with any turbocharged car, these engines LOVE E85. I have personally chose to power my vehicle with corn. I don't care about your political stance on this fuel, so feed it to the toilet. As far as horsepower/torque gains per cent, there is NOTHING that can compete and I will support it until my death. There are some that will argue that Ethanol will clog fuel injectors and burn through rubber hoses. This is simply not true. As with brake fluid, ethanol will absorb water like a sponge. Unfortunately, high water content results in a slightly high corrosive property. This is not an issue for sealed gas tanks. There are 1,000+ vehicles using E85 and I have rarely heard of issue. I call it the hitch hiker phenomenon. Back in 1970, hitch hikers didn't murder people. Neither did mothers. Simply put, the media allows for the slight number of actual incidents to be "amplified"; rather, these instances are more easily accessed and spread from person to person. The idea of E85 causing issues with fuel systems started with the semi-solids and terrible parts of petroleum that were left behind and then cleaned up with the better fuel. This resulted in a very concentrated number of fuel leaks and clogged injectors. As with any change in fuel type, a teardown both before and after should be initiated to look for any failures. Thinking that changing the E85 after burning 100+ k miles of petroleum through your tank without any hiccups is a bit of a naive thought process anyway...

Obviously, the aftermarket world for these engines is huge. So I doubt anyone will question the ability of the cars with such a fantastic choice for running gear. Education with this Japanese beauty is key.
Anyone new to these engine but still have interest in the car: Get in and hang on. From here on out, it's gonna be one hell of a ride.

PLEASE ASK ANY QUESTIONS YOU MAY HAVE. I will update this thread with realizations, my modifications to get 350WHP and 400+WTQ out of my WRX, along with general thoughts on performance oriented Subaru engines/transmissions/brakes.

[NicksPapaw]

First, welcome to the forum! I, for one knows absolutely nothing about Subaru engines. Here is my question. Is there a book out there that you suggest that can bring me up to speed on these cars? Seems like every automobile has THAT book which is the bible for covering most aspects of a particular model. As Dave gets closer to the 818 becoming reality, I promise you that I will have a bunch more questions. :)

[305mouse]

I'll say that downloading a copy of the Factory Service Manual for whatever year donor you decide to use would be a great idea. It will help with your disassembly and better understanding of the car. If you're stripping out anything it'll make that process easier of knowing what wires can be cut. Some of them travel to some interesting places.

I wil also say that while a hybrid (2.5 block with 2.0 heads) is very easily done, I have found in the long run people don't like them. You have to compromise CR, you'll probably want more power later on (though with the weight maybe not on this project) and I think hybrids have more of a reputation for not holding up like an oem engine. Now most of that later part may be contributed to the fact that anyone can put together a hybrid, and maybe there was some other issue in the first place that was never addressed. But just my .02

[thebeerbaron]

I wil also say that while a hybrid (2.5 block with 2.0 heads) is very easily done, I have found in the long run people don't like them. You have to compromise CR, you'll probably want more power later on (though with the weight maybe not on this project) and I think hybrids have more of a reputation for not holding up like an oem engine. Now most of that later part may be contributed to the fact that anyone can put together a hybrid, and maybe there was some other issue in the first place that was never addressed. But just my .02

If you look for my engine re-do (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2472-SubuGurus-engine-assembly-options) thread, a supposedly big-name tuner as well as my local Subaru tuning shop weighed in against the hybrid, if you do not reshape the 2.0 combustion chambers. Interesting food for thought. I had the opportunity to do a hybrid without doing the machining, I declined. We'll see how I feel about that down the road.

[BrandonDrums]

If you look for my engine re-do (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2472-SubuGurus-engine-assembly-options) thread, a supposedly big-name tuner as well as my local Subaru tuning shop weighed in against the hybrid, if you do not reshape the 2.0 combustion chambers. Interesting food for thought. I had the opportunity to do a hybrid without doing the machining, I declined. We'll see how I feel about that down the road.

YUP, Hybrid blocks are a PITA and you need a LOT more headwork than just 2.5 headgaskets. Further, the additional compression ratio makes them quite hard to tune unless you have a 32 bit ECU which has better resolution for tweaking fueling and timing to protect against detonation.

The 6MT is also not really such a great idea for the 818. Shorter gear ratios will not be as handy in a car this light. They are more expensive largely due to the advanced electronic center diff which you'll not need for the 818 and they are far heavier with different mounting points than the 5mt. Just get a 5MT and put a Limited Slip front diff in there and call it a day. If you're really looking to lay down some heavy power like 350 whp + perhaps a PPG gearset would be a good idea.

Most of this stuff has been discussed at length in some of the older threads.

[Inthenameofweez]

My 2.0L heads were not machined and there were zero problems with tuning. Again, I'm using E85 as fuel and the burn characteristics are nothing like pertrol. I have heard a few people weigh in about the combustion chamber, but I again think that the actual number of failed engines are going to be very concentrated when compared to the number of engines that were actually assembled by an educated Subaru engine builder. I personally think that the whole "ZOMG THE DIFFERENT CR CAUSED BY A 2.0L HEAD COMBUSTION CHAMBER WILL MAKE GOES BOOM" was an over exaggeration to an otherwise measly change in burn characteristics which was easily understood by anyone who has tuned a 2.5L/2.0L hybrid engine.

Here is a thread showing the explanation of CNC'd heads to match the 2.5L combustion chamber along with added discussion: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1942615

Papaw, I agree with what mouse has said about an electronic copy of the Service Manual.

http://ken-gilbert.com/wrx/STi_Manual/index.htm (Remember that this is for a 2.5L engine. However, the suspension is the exact same as the WRX for this year STi.)

And also: http://wrxinfo.com/service_manuals/

One more that isn't organized quite as well, but still useful: http://ken-gilbert.com/impreza-manuals

Here is a good engine disassembly guide: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1435733
An important step for tearing an engine down that is often missed (including the above mentioned) is reusing the OEM timing belt tensioner. This is a lot easier to do when you compress and pin before removal of ANY elements of the timing belt/pullies.

Not like this: http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/lethaldose_2002/Scooby%20Mod%20-%20DIY%20Loads/DSCN3796.jpg My reasoning for suggesting this is because Fuji Heavy Industries (Manufacturers of Subaru) recommends taking 3 MINUTES to compress the tensioner from the fully open to closed position. This is to prevent seal/piston/shaft damage during compression. With such a long stroke, with it on the car it is much easier to do in say..... 60 seconds.

This is a fun read for folks wanting to mess with different block/head combos to get a different displacement: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2141800

Here is a HUGE list of turbo options for the EJ series engine: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1141476

[Inthenameofweez]

Most of this stuff has been discussed at length in some of the older threads.

I know I'm kinda late to the party. Lol. I hope I'm not being redundant. :/

[riptide motorsport]

Not really, all newer stuff basically.

[Inthenameofweez]

Here is a link to a bunch of dyno videos just for reference:http://www.youtube.com/user/cobbtuning#p/u
Look for a video that has numbers relative to what you think is needed to make this chassis a rocket, and write down the modifications that car has!

They also have a dyno database:http://accessecu.com/dyno/

[scartaan]

Weez- Which donor car do you recommend? Would the '06 WRX with the 2.5L engine with the drive-by-wire throttle control, and the aluminum suspension be the best choice? Thanks

[Inthenameofweez]

I would honestly recommend any EJ series engine. Obviously the WRX brake calipers would be considered a better choice over the earlier Imprezas. But with anything in an 1800lb chassis, anything is going to be great.

My personal preference would be an 06+ WRX because of the added torque of the 2.5L engines. The DBW is pretty cool stuff. No throttle wires. This will make the installation easier, as there are no additions needed for cruise control. It's in the ECU. Also, as you stated the aluminum front Lower Control Arms are traditionally preferred in the Subaru community. Also, the quicker steering rack will be nice in a smaller car.

All of those things are nice and all, but a 2.0L will do this car just fine. :D Along with the 2.2 N/A or even a 1.8L N/A for that matter........

[2KWIK4U]

I am a diesel mechanic by trade and was wondering when going with the later model subies (o5 and newer)is the variable valve system more of a problem? Is there a way to bypass it for a less complex setup?

Danny

[bromikl]

Slightly off topic, but may I ask a question? It's two-fold:
1)How much power do the different engines make in stock condition?
2)How much power can one expect from each engine with simple mods - i.e. the most popular upgrades without spending outrageous $$$$$$.

[prematureapex]

Slightly off topic, but may I ask a question? It's two-fold:
1)How much power do the different engines make in stock condition?
2)How much power can one expect from each engine with simple mods - i.e. the most popular upgrades without spending outrageous $$$$$$.

Tough to use WHP comparisions, because this car will be 2wd vs. awd...

The EJ20 off a 02-05 WRX makes around 230 (227) HP, that's about 160-175 whp depending on the dyno, so figure 175-195 ish whp without AWD?

While the 06-07 WRX EJ25 is rated at a similar peak output, they tend to make about 250 ish at the crank, at best guess. I.E. a stock 06-07 WRX is putting down around 20 more whp (180-200) to the ground than a stock 02-05 WRX, despite the claimed same/similar peak output.

With some exhaust work and a mild off-the-shelf tune, you're looking at around 280 ish crank HP from the EJ20 (very reliable), and actually a similar peak number for the EJ25, as the turbo is the limiting factor on the top end of both engines. So both motors make about the same peak power at "stage 2" levels (exhaust + reflash). However the EJ25 will be MUCH stronger through the middle. Upgrading the turbo really opens up the potential of the EJ25 though.

Of note, a "stage 2 EJ20" (e.g. exhaust + reflash) makes similar power in the mid-range to a stock EJ25, but takes over on the top end:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y5/johnjanick/wrxstg2-vs-06wrx.gif


Some more EJ20 data, this is WHP stock vs. stage 2:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y5/johnjanick/ae-stage2-dyno.jpg

[bromikl]

What about the N/A engines? I have a 2.2L that needs a rebuild, and 2.5L N/A's are PLENTIFUL at some fantastic prices. For a used WRX, you're looking at $8K or more unless it was rolled or has a blown head gasket.

[prematureapex]

Well, I'm waiting to see how much you need in terms of donor parts, sans the engine.

You can certainly get a running wrx for about 5k-6k, with some needed body work, or high miles. I was offered a running 03 wagon for $4500, only needed bodywork.

I bought a '03 wagon with a bad engine for $3k, dropped in a motor for $1900 and off I went. $4900 for a WRX wagon, in good shape, with a 50k mile engine.

Deals can be had out there. Honestly though, parts are cheap. SO it might be worth it to spend, say, $2500-3000 on an engine/trans package, and buy the rest of the list used on forums. Especially if you don't want to bother with selling off the remaining donor car/parts thereof.

Not sure what info you're looking for regarding the N/A motors. Generally, they are very reliable, but don't have much, if any upgrade potential on the power making side.

What you see is what you get. Headers, tune, etc. might net you 10 or so, but that's about it.


Regarding a rolled WRX, that's exactly what you'd want in a donor. I mean, maybe replace a $50 used control arm or two.

[Inthenameofweez]

I am a diesel mechanic by trade and was wondering when going with the later model subies (o5 and newer)is the variable valve system more of a problem? Is there a way to bypass it for a less complex setup?

Danny

The AVCS is not known for causing issues to be honest. Many people love and praise it. I will be upgrading my wagon to include the AVCS on both intake and exhaust camshafts (from the 08+ STi).

It can be disabled (mechanically locked in 1 position of choice) or you can simply swap can pulleys with a non AVCS car.
Here is a good article about AVCS: http://www.drivingsports.com/site/2008/11/modifying-the-subaru-sti-avcs/
The 2.5L WRX AVCS system operates the same at the STi. The camshaft lift and duration is obviously different...

[Inthenameofweez]

What about the N/A engines? I have a 2.2L that needs a rebuild, and 2.5L N/A's are PLENTIFUL at some fantastic prices. For a used WRX, you're looking at $8K or more unless it was rolled or has a blown head gasket.

The 2.5L engines were known for headgasket issues. They blow like a High School gi...... Nvm.

My suggestion is a 2.2L for this car. I will most likely be purchasing both street and track versions. Doing a 2.2 N/A in the street, then waiting to build a sweet 2.0L twin scroll VF42 for the track version. Wouldn't that be nice...

[PhyrraM]

Seeing as how the donor harness will likely be re-purposed for the 818, AVCS will not be an issue to impement if your donor came with it. Just a few extra wires to deal with, that's it. Now, in the unlikely event that the 818 ships with a FFR made/sourced harness - then all bets are off.

Also, I'm sure the orginal poster knows this, but it wasn't specifically mentioned....When disabling the variable valve timing (AVCS) function by using non-AVCS cam sprockets, you must either drill-tap-and-plug a oil passage in the cam or swap to non-AVCS cams. Not doing one of those two options will cause a fairly major oil leak and loss of oil pressure.

EJ25 and EJ20 based turbos have the same basic power capability when built equally. The EJ25 has both a longer stoke and larger bore. This means heavier pistons and pins. All the bore/stroke relationship, rod/stroke ratio, piston velocity, etc stuff you learned for American iron V8s still applies as it relates to power band, torque delivery, and 'revability'.

[Inthenameofweez]

I'm so happy we have such a large group of experienced Subaru peeps already on this forum. Phyrra is dead right on all accounts. I'm beginning to think we may see more educated than non-educated (If any) members of the FFR. I guess you'll find that when working with a bunch of cars that a required to be built and assembled before enjoying. (Compared to used Civics and Imprezas.)

This is getting exciting... :)

[BrandonDrums]

I'm so happy we have such a large group of experienced Subaru peeps already on this forum. Phyrra is dead right on all accounts. I'm beginning to think we may see more educated than non-educated (If any) members of the FFR. I guess you'll find that when working with a bunch of cars that a required to be built and assembled before enjoying. (Compared to used Civics and Imprezas.)

This is getting exciting... :)

Between Phyrram and InTheNameofWeez we have essentially a panel of Subaru guru's to throw questions at. You guys rock.

Earlier, I pointed out some of the shortcoming of doing a Hybrid 2.0 head/2.5 shortblock engine and I stand corrected. I was mainly referencing many of the issues that I've seen locally and with the use of pump gas. Perhaps the heavy swings in temperature, local gas quality or the apparent suckiness of our local Subaru engine/tuner shop has resulted in a bad rap for the hybrid block (I wanted to do one but decided not to and just went for a 2.5 with forged internals). Most of the ones done locally have detonated or have had gasket issues or both. Our local shop actually has stopped working on any hybrid blocks as a result of so many failures penned on them. Probably due to bad tuning, they actually don't have a dyno themselves and most folks go to random shops to get tuned. Perhaps there needs to me more control with that.

In any case, these guys are way more experienced than me so listen to them before listing to this guy lol.

Thanks dudes!

[thebeerbaron]

OK wise guys - there was a recent thread in the GRM forum that wandered into the subject of track day oiling issues. To sum: it was suggested that long fast sweepers denied oil the chance to drain from the heads back into the pan, causing oil starvation and the associated engine death. What verifiable information is there about this and what are proven solutions, if any. Please show your work and cite your sources. There are extra blue books on the desk in the front of the classroom, should you need more space. :)

[Inthenameofweez]

I'm just heading out the door!!! But I'll BRB with some cool stuff. Here's something to chew on while I run to buy some laundry detergent and razor blades:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y190/leonbmx/66940_135117546540458_100001266395572_204349_95598 4_n.jpg

[Twinspool]

There are a handful of E85 stations nearby but tuning for ONLY E85 is not an option for me. The Flex Fuel sensors out of another OEM can be used with some of the newer megasquirt revs, is that the only chance for dual-fuel compatibility?

I don't care about off boost response and "low end" I will have a turbo, I needs me some whoosh.

[PhyrraM]

The "Hybrid issue" is because the combustion chamber in the 2.0 heads is physically smaller than the bore of the 2.5. This means that the semi-sharp edge at the transition from the chamber to the head mating surface is now IN the bore instead of at THE EDGE of the smaller 2.0 bore.

This can cause an inconsistant hot-spot because the edge of the transition can be very thin at it's "peak". This can be very problematic for any tune that pushes the edge in timing or fuel ratio. It poses far less of an issue if your tune is conservative. This is one reason many say a hybrid is not problem and others swear it's suicide.

My personal opinion? With the total cost of a Subaru build, having 2.0 chambers machined to 2.5 specs is cheap insurance.

[305mouse]

OK wise guys - there was a recent thread in the GRM forum that wandered into the subject of track day oiling issues. To sum: it was suggested that long fast sweepers denied oil the chance to drain from the heads back into the pan, causing oil starvation and the associated engine death. What verifiable information is there about this and what are proven solutions, if any. Please show your work and cite your sources. There are extra blue books on the desk in the front of the classroom, should you need more space. :)

There's a company called Killer B motorpsorts. They have engineered some parts, mostly around oil and cooling, for the EJ 2.X motors. Their oil pan has baffles or you can get it with baffels, I forget if it comes standard. It wil fit both the 2.0 and 2.5 blocks. They also make an oil pick-up tube, since the oem one has been known to fail at the weld in some instances. I plan on using their pick-up tube and maybe the oil pan, depending on how much I think this will be at a track. One thing I have learned with the EJ engines. Before any autox/track event, check your oil. Just make sure it isn't low at all. I have witnessed oil starvation on my friends Subaru at an autox event. Not pretty.

[thebeerbaron]

There's a company called Killer B motorpsorts. They have engineered some parts, mostly around oil and cooling, for the EJ 2.X motors. Their oil pan has baffles or you can get it with baffels, I forget if it comes standard. It wil fit both the 2.0 and 2.5 blocks. They also make an oil pick-up tube, since the oem one has been known to fail at the weld in some instances. I plan on using their pick-up tube and maybe the oil pan, depending on how much I think this will be at a track. One thing I have learned with the EJ engines. Before any autox/track event, check your oil. Just make sure it isn't low at all. I have witnessed oil starvation on my friends Subaru at an autox event. Not pretty.

Yes, but the question was about oil retention in the heads due to the horizontal layout of the engine. All the baffling and pickups in the world won't help if all of your oil is stuck in the right-side head as you power around a long left-hander. The Accusump is one answer, if an expensive one.

[Arrowhead]

OK, stupid question alert!! What the point of a hybrid? Why not just use the whole 2.5 engine? Is it to get the larger displacement without having the variable valve timing and drive by wire?

As a side note, my son is picking up an '02 WRX tonight so I will inevitably be sucked into working on it and helping him sift through the sea of upgrades. What he doesn't know is I'm secretly preparing to use it as doner for the 818!

[riptide motorsport]

Ah yes Arrowhead////gotta have a plan!!!!!!!!!:)

[Inthenameofweez]

I apologize for the lack of a response last night. Got caught up on way too many errands and house keeping items.

The Accusump is by far the most effective way to ensure proper oiling to the bearings in any occasion. But as you stated, it's a bit expensive. Turn in Concepts is talking about their solution by simply adding more oil to the crankcase. Element Tuning is also experiencing these same issues.
I've got a baller catch can also it holds 2 gallons.....Element Tuning Dry Sump. LOL!

Even with 5 quarts of oil still in the pan we were still skimming bearings. I think at VIR its the long right hander (Hog Pen) as it's a long, high g turn and the oil just hangs out in the head. Even a huge drain back can isn't going to solve this particular situation because when you are on the throttle pulling through the turn there is no way to get the oil back to the pan until you lift again due to the crankcase pressure forcing up the drain back line also.

These situations a limited to a high horsepower, larger and heavier car when compared to the 818 and these cars are also in massively long turns. Fast ones at that. I hope that this situation will never arise with this car, but the baffles and a large capacity oil pan are the only things I will be using. An accusump will only show up if I experience failure. No need to get crazy without reason to worry. The idea behind the larger capacity pan is obviously to allow more oil available for the pick up while the head fills up in the turn. Prevent a dry pick up and it doesn't really matter where the oil is (shoved in the head).


OK, stupid question alert!! What the point of a hybrid? Why not just use the whole 2.5 engine? Is it to get the larger displacement without having the variable valve timing and drive by wire?

As a side note, my son is picking up an '02 WRX tonight so I will inevitably be sucked into working on it and helping him sift through the sea of upgrades. What he doesn't know is I'm secretly preparing to use it as doner for the 818!

You nailed it. When someone with a 2.0L engine that blows the bottom end, a 2.5L swap is easy. Free torque. However, the wiring and oiling situation with the 2.5L heads is more complicated than just minor assembly changes. The 2.0L heads do not start being a restriction until ~500whp with a very large lb/min turbo. At that point, camshafts are able to fix a lot of it. There are no downfalls to the hybrid setup other than the previously noted tuning issues due to the unmachined 2.0L head just hanging out in the combustion chamber.

Congrats on joining the subaru Crew!!! Haha.

[PhyrraM]

.....What the point of a hybrid? Why not just use the whole 2.5 engine? Is it to get the larger displacement without having the variable valve timing and drive by wire?.

Yes, the '02-'05 WRXs (2.0 and arguably the most common) do not have the AVCS (valve timing) or the fly by wire throttle. If you have a 2.0 WRX with a borked bottom end (usually rod bearing), a cheap upgrade is to swap to the 2.5 shortblock. And by cheap, I mean 2.0s and 2.5 are virtually the same cost to build/rebuild. Stock-for-stock or modded the price is comparable. Adding the AVCS or throttle to the early WRXs involves alot of wiring and dash removal to accomodate it, so the 'simple' hybrid is very attractive.

The V8 comparision would be replacing a worn 305 shortblock with a 350 shortblock. Everything else will bolt up perfect and run. It might not be ideal, but will likely be torquier and more fun than the 305 was.

[shinn497]

Out of curiosity where exactly would one get a 06+ STI engine without paying an arm or a leg? I did a search and these engines are 10k+ but the short blocks are considerably less expensive. Forgive my noobishness.

[305mouse]

You could source a used one or a blown one and rebuild it. That's really only going to be your cheaper option. If you could find used heads on ebay or nasioc or iwsti, then just buy a new shortblock, that would save on costs. The short block is only about $1700 or so new from the dealer, but the heads if I remember correctly are close to $5k. If there is a builder/tuner close by to where you live, that could be a good option.

[shinn497]

Due the heads tend to wear more?

[spaceywilly]

Out of curiosity where exactly would one get a 06+ STI engine without paying an arm or a leg? I did a search and these engines are 10k+ but the short blocks are considerably less expensive. Forgive my noobishness.

10k? I was looking at getting an EJ207 and it was 8k for the engine and transmission, or 3k for just the engine. 10k is way too much unless you're getting a fully built crawford engine. There are places that pull engines out of wrecked STIs and resell them. That's probably the cheapest way to go.

Also, I'm no expert but I have heard nothing but bad things about the hybrid engines. I would avoid them like the plague personally. You won't need 2.5L in an 1800# car.

[Cooluser23]

A couple odd questions:

Since you follow the Subie world. What is their reception of the 818 so far? Is there much coverage on the Subaru side of things?
How well do "junk yard engines age" when they're Subaru's? Do they generally require a complete teardown and rebuild, or are they generally in good shape?
Follow up on above: Why to Subaru WRX and/or STi generally end up at junyards? What's their cause of death?
Are fwd limited slip diff's common? Which type? Torsen/Quaife, clutch disc, other?
Are dry sumps needed/good idea with these engines? (at what level of (ab)use?)
Are shallow sumps / lowering the engine common mods?
Are accusumps common? (when are they needed?)

[Cooluser23]

Please post some pictures of cool Subaru powertrains. (preferably modified, and not yet mounted in engine bays)

[Horhay]

Here's a nice expensive option:
http://www.cosworthusa.com/store/pc/catalog/cosworth-ej25-long-blockg1_1105_general.jpg

http://www.cosworthusa.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=14&idproduct=22

$12k+

This is just a rotated turbo kit:
http://pandlmotorsports.com/images/products/30r-08-20-07/_MG_5858.jpg

And the ultimate (IMO):
http://subaruwrcspares.com/resources/_wsb_423x277_S11+ENG+1.jpg
S11 WRC spec engine from this car:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vDssy1NBk4w/TcVFBqWq0tI/AAAAAAAAPmI/U5iEN2w-SXE/s1600/6+ot_a_5_sarrazin_2.jpg

[Horhay]

A couple odd questions:

Since you follow the Subie world. What is their reception of the 818 so far? Is there much coverage on the Subaru side of things?
I would honestly say lukewarm, simply because many haven't heard of it and those that have, have had heard about cars like this before. Most of all of those never panned out.


Follow up on above: Why to Subaru WRX and/or STi generally end up at junyards? What's their cause of death?
Accidents. Young kids buy these and find out very quickly that their driving skills are insufficient to extract 100% of the car's capabilities.

I don't know much about the other questions you had so I'll leave those to others.

[PhyrraM]

A couple odd questions:

What is their reception of the 818 so far? Is there much coverage on the Subaru side of things?

Of those that understand the purpose, the reception seems positive. The AWD fanbois couldn't care less.


How well do "junk yard engines age" when they're Subaru's? Do they generally require a complete teardown and rebuild, or are they generally in good shape?


Yes. Generally a swap of timing belt is all that is needed. Worst case is head gaskets, timing belt and idlers, and water pump.


Follow up on above: Why to Subaru WRX and/or STi generally end up at junyards? What's their cause of death?

Generally speaking, accidents. The gotcha with a front end accident is that many times the timing cover is crushed, and the possibility of valves hitting the pistons as the engine dies is great.


Are fwd limited slip diff's common? Which type? Torsen/Quaife, clutch disc, other?

On the 6 speeds, yes. On the 5 speeds, not common at all (in North America).


Are dry sumps needed/good idea with these engines? (at what level of (ab)use?)

Because of the flat nature of the motor, only in sustained high G situations. The 2.5 motors have been known to have pickup tube problems, but there are fixes available without going to a full dry sump.


Are shallow sumps / lowering the engine common mods?

Only in Sandrails. Even then your limited by the flywheel diameter.


Are accusumps common? (when are they needed?)

Lot's of talk, but very few actual installations.

[Ironhydroxide]

Weez is my good friend, and he does know his stuff.

NOW that said, I would like to continue talk of Powertrain and Engine options.

I have had many Subarus, mostly older (pre 2000) and have dealt with many newer. All In all my Favorite Subaru engine is, and always will be the EG33. For those of you who do not know Subaru Engine codes, this is a Horizontally opposed 6 Cylinder, 4 valve per cylinder, NON INTERFERENCE , DOHC, 32XX CC, NA engine. originally delivering 230 BHP and having a good wide powerband. I currently have one of these engines running stock ECU in my '89 Subaru XT6 (stripped weighing a guesstimated 2200lbs). it is one of the funnest cars i have driven. Many people have luck with Standalone Engine management on this engine, sometimes producing an extra 100 BHP over "stock", and there are very good results from adding a turbo to the mix (some bad results of SC, but that's a different story)

That said, this engine is a fair bit longer than the "usual" subaru engine, as it has an extra 2 cylinders over the EJ22 engine (with which it shares, pistons, rods, crank, and main bearings).


also, in regards to Transmissions. there were some years of the 6mt that did NOT have the DCCD (driver Controlled Center Differential) but rather a Viscious Center Diff. and there are some (albeit JDM) 5mt's that had DCCD (22B S201, among others).

At this point I expect some naysayers to come out with the "Phase 1 is NOT compatible with Phase 2, engine or transmission" well suck a stick because I have a Phase 1 Engine bolted to my Phase 2 Transmission (EJ22G bolted to '00RS Trans), and I know others have done the opposite. the funny part in that is the gearset inside the transmissions have the same bearing dimensions, Also known from experience of having a Phase 2 Gearset in my Phase 1 Transmission (with a EA/ER series Center diff tacked on)

just some food for thought.

I will be following this vehicle very closely, and WHEN i get one, it WILL be getting an EG33 WITH an 05'+ LGT Gearset INSIDE a JDM 4.44 Transmission.

[PhyrraM]

Weez is my good friend, and he does know his stuff.

NOW that said, I would like to continue talk of Powertrain and Engine options.

I have had many Subarus, mostly older (pre 2000) and have dealt with many newer. All In all my Favorite Subaru engine is, and always will be the EG33. For those of you who do not know Subaru Engine codes, this is a Horizontally opposed 6 Cylinder, 4 valve per cylinder, NON INTERFERENCE , DOHC, 32XX CC, NA engine. originally delivering 230 BHP and having a good wide powerband. I currently have one of these engines running stock ECU in my '89 Subaru XT6 (stripped weighing a guesstimated 2200lbs). it is one of the funnest cars i have driven. Many people have luck with Standalone Engine management on this engine, sometimes producing an extra 100 BHP over "stock", and there are very good results from adding a turbo to the mix (some bad results of SC, but that's a different story)

That said, this engine is a fair bit longer than the "usual" subaru engine, as it has an extra 2 cylinders over the EJ22 engine (with which it shares, pistons, rods, crank, and main bearings).


also, in regards to Transmissions. there were some years of the 6mt that did NOT have the DCCD (driver Controlled Center Differential) but rather a Viscious Center Diff. and there are some (albeit JDM) 5mt's that had DCCD (22B S201, among others).

At this point I expect some naysayers to come out with the "Phase 1 is NOT compatible with Phase 2, engine or transmission" well suck a stick because I have a Phase 1 Engine bolted to my Phase 2 Transmission (EJ22G bolted to '00RS Trans), and I know others have done the opposite. the funny part in that is the gearset inside the transmissions have the same bearing dimensions, Also known from experience of having a Phase 2 Gearset in my Phase 1 Transmission (with a EA/ER series Center diff tacked on)

just some food for thought.

I will be following this vehicle very closely, and WHEN i get one, it WILL be getting an EG33 WITH an 05'+ LGT Gearset INSIDE a JDM 4.44 Transmission.

Good info, but much of it won't apply to the FFR 818.

The EG33 is almost certainly not going to fit. The current debate is whether the newer, shorter EZ 6s will fit. If you look at the pictures of the prototype chassis that have been posted, room in front of the EJ255 currently mounted is very tight. It might happen, but I wouldn't get all worked up at this point.

The type of center diff (viscous or DCCD) is a total non-issue because it will be removed/bypassed. They type of FRONT diff is a subject of much debate as this will be the new, and only, driving axle differential.

AS far as gears and gearsets...all good info and as the release gets closer (and folks get over the 5speed vs. 6 speed debate) the most appropriate ratios will be a hot topic. However, most folks will just use the trans that can in the donor.

Glad to have you on-board.

[305mouse]

Why would you go with the EG33? I know you just said you love it. It's heavy and most likely too long by close to 4" if tolerances are tight. Now, the EZ30R is a 6 cyl but less than an inch longer than the EJ2xx series that was in mind with this build. It was brought up in another thread about how somebody wanted to use a 6 cyl due to the powerband and curve. If it'll fit, go for it, I just think the EZ will give anyone less trouble. I like things that are different, but I'll probably go with a 2.5 or a built 2.2 block.

edit, beat me by a couple seconds

[Ironhydroxide]

haha people told me the EG33 wouldn't fit in my car either.... but I made it fit :evil:

the problem I have with the EZ is the Bearing widths on the Crank and Rods are about 60% that of the EG, and when Trying to make good power... they fail...almost without fail.

where are said pics of prototype chassis???

the type of center is quite relevant. in that some centers require a longer front diff input shaft (and therefore a different bypass), example: Locking Center diff from EA/ER series has ~6" longer front diff input shaft than the EJ/EG/EZ series transmissions Viscous center.

and almost certainly Front differentials will have a huge affect on performance, as VLSD fronts are not very common and the Clutched even less.

and yes, sadly most will use a donor car and be happy.... but i'm never one to take whats given and not question what can be made better (read: funner)

[BrandonDrums]

I wonder if one could modify the 818 chassis to make it a little longer behind the firewall to fit in a flat 6 if there isn't room already.

Over in the project Q&A thred, discussion over the number and size of body panels is going on. If the bodywork consists of many smaller panels, it might even be possible for FFR to offer a longbody kit with slightly longer body panels over a lengthened chassis behind the firewall to allow for bigger engines.

Not dissimilar from the Hennesy Venom which does exactly what I'm describing with the Lotus Exige. Hennesy just stretched the chassis and re-made the body panels longer behind the front doors essentially.

With smaller more traditional body panels, the front end, including doors and roof could stay the same and the panels behind the doors could be slightly longer. It would be easier for FFR to do than trying to modify a unibody design.

Not something I'd expect with this projects but just food for conversation. The GTM has the big engine kit well covered so I'm cool with just FHI flat 4 options.

[Ironhydroxide]

this reminds me of the long forgotten Maxton Rollerskate.

they also made a long and short wheelbase model. long was just a bit more seat room/interior,

[thebeerbaron]

where are said pics of prototype chassis???

Here you go (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2236-Open-house-and-design-winners&p=22768&viewfull=1#post22768)
And more (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2236-Open-house-and-design-winners&p=23037&viewfull=1#post23037)

Here are the relevant ones. IIRC, my eyeball of the chassis was less than an inch between the front pulley and the closest chassis tube. You can make a 6 cylinder fit, sure. You're just going to have to cut and weld and maybe do some fiberglas work.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2280&d=1307828820
http://hphotos-ash4.fbcdn.net/257484_977141488479_1815197_47159231_4803036_o.jpg

[StatGSR]

Why would you go with the EG33? I know you just said you love it. It's heavy and most likely too long by close to 4" if tolerances are tight. Now, the EZ30R is a 6 cyl but less than an inch longer than the EJ2xx series that was in mind with this build. It was brought up in another thread about how somebody wanted to use a 6 cyl due to the powerband and curve. If it'll fit, go for it, I just think the EZ will give anyone less trouble. I like things that are different, but I'll probably go with a 2.5 or a built 2.2 block.

edit, beat me by a couple seconds

um cause its cheap, has more HP and Torque than an EZ30D, and is easy to run on the OEM ecu during a swap (EZ30Ds and EZ30Rs typically need to be run on standalones to work properly during swaps)

that said, im already completely aware that it can't be used for the 818 without substantial customization... heck it looks like the EZ's are going to be tight if they even fit at all...

[Twinspool]

I'm having a very difficult time envisioning the cost:benefit of the labor alone for this H-6 fabrication job when the EJ207 will deliver and then some.

[Ironhydroxide]

I do my own labor... the work is what makes things worth it. and there is NO replacement for the thrill of INSTANT power when you hit the throttle.. none of this waiting for spool.

[shinn497]

NOOB QUESTION

So I researced remanufactured engines and came upon this website (http://www.ccrengines.com/id18.html) and some others similiar to it. What is interesting is that they point out that their engines are remanufactured rather than rebuilt, what is the main difference and how reliable would you consider this to be? Since you can get an EJ25 (without a turbo) for 4K. I'm thinking its totally possible to source a donor that is much slower, (something like a 90's legacy). for 4-2k and then spend 2-3k on mods. The goal would be a 400HP beast for around 20k (given that that is the cost of my GTI). Does this seem reasonable? I realize there will be other costs in terms of setting things up and misc. additions along the way.

One thing I find interesting is just how economical usiing the WRX as a running gear is. It seems very much in the realm of possibility to have an 818 with the same power to weight as an LS7 GTM for the cost of a GTM kit alone. Given that they are both mid engine sports cars with (presumablY) minimal cargo space, do you think the 818 has the potential to make the GTM obsolete? I mean 400HP is the same power to weight ratio as an enzo. Perhaps the only advantage I would see the GTM having is extra mass, which would make traction a lot easier for drag racing.

[305mouse]

Isn't the EG33 only out of a SVX? I like something different, trust me, and a 207 is way too damn expensive. Why do you think a EZ30 would need a stand alone ECU? Since it's OBDII, if you're using it's ECU, couldn't you just use a rom raider type program and change any parameters you needed to?

[riptide motorsport]

I so confused!!!:eek:

[Ironhydroxide]

yes the EG33 only came in the SVX, was only Automatic, and WAS OBDII for 2 years (96-97) though the OBDI is much easier to swap in.

an EZ30D you wouldn't need a Standalone. an EZ30R you would need a standalone because of all the security/antitheft stuff.

[305mouse]

forgot about the security stuff, gotcha. Now lets confuse some more people. Just kidding. There's a lot to take in with many options available. Hell, just oil pumps. 10, 11, or 12 mm pumps and do you shim it or not, if you plan on not keeping the block stock. How about water pumps? I'll pick up an 02-03 pump. Let's make a 2.5 block into a 2.35 and rev the living daylights out of it. Twinscroll turbo? How about we keep the EG33 idea and supercharge it. A friend of mine has a SVX supercharged with a 6mt swap. I think there will be some interesting combinations put into these kits and I can't wait to see them.

[Ironhydroxide]

that or a 2.7 closed deck with murderous power... Seriously I am thinking to keep things simple, and for the FFR 818 i think we need to keep them down to "donor cars" or stock transmissions and stock Engines (as most of the manuals are interchangeable)

But i'll be doing my own "fun" when I get this.

[StatGSR]

I'm having a very difficult time envisioning the cost:benefit of the labor alone for this H-6 fabrication job when the EJ207 will deliver and then some.

labor and fabrication? as mentioned hopefully the ez30 requires no changes to the chassis or anything else, and as far as the eg33 goes, it really should be considered a lost cause as far as putting it into the 818 imo, it is just too long...

in either case the an EJ20/EJ25 will never sound as good as an H6..... ;)

[StatGSR]

NOOB QUESTION

So I researced remanufactured engines and came upon this website (http://www.ccrengines.com/id18.html) and some others similiar to it. What is interesting is that they point out that their engines are remanufactured rather than rebuilt, what is the main difference and how reliable would you consider this to be? Since you can get an EJ25 (without a turbo) for 4K. I'm thinking its totally possible to source a donor that is much slower, (something like a 90's legacy). for 4-2k and then spend 2-3k on mods. The goal would be a 400HP beast for around 20k (given that that is the cost of my GTI). Does this seem reasonable? I realize there will be other costs in terms of setting things up and misc. additions along the way.


There is a lot wrong with that thought process but i don't have the time to go over it now, so i'll edit this later unless somebody else wants to take a stab at it...

[slopoke]

I know I've said this before, but if the EZ36D is only 7/10ths of an inch longer than the 4 cylinder ... would you split the difference from the motor mounts (assuming they're centered front to back)? Thats about 1/3rd of an inch. I'd be real surprised not to be able to find enough room to shoehorn it in. It would also enable a lower profile without an intercooler sitting on top of it ...

[PhyrraM]

If you use the donor wiring harness as a base for the 818's wiring, I don't see any reason that you could not just keep all the OBDII, anti-theft, and CANbus stuff intact. That will allow relatively painless adoption of the EZ motors.....at least at stock power levels.

Anybody planning on using a '05+ 2.5 liter turbo motor will have to deal with most of the same issues and nobody seems to think that will be a problem. (Yes, I know the "standard" answer to that is to use the non-anti-theft '04 STI ECU, but those won't be readily available forever.)

*disclaimer* I do not know if the factory EZ ecus will work without an automatic transmission behind them.

[shinn497]

There is a lot wrong with that thought process but i don't have the time to go over it now, so i'll edit this later unless somebody else wants to take a stab at it...

This makes me want to know more.

[305mouse]

to try and keep it simple, you can't slap a turbo on a NA block. The block is missing the oil return. Also the ecu and wiring harness from a NA donor are missing key pieces. Really, you could find a good donor with a blown motor and get a new shortblock from a dealer for $1700 as long as the heads are still fine. Or you could bore the engine and build it propery for around $3000 or so. That's just for starters. Do not buy a NA 2.5 donor with the idea of converting it to a turbo build unless you want to spend a ton more.

[Inthenameofweez]

/\ This hasn't been stopping Honda guys since 1989. :P

[305mouse]

No it hasn't but he was thinking it would be a cheaper alternative to try and turbo a NA block. It won't be.

[Gollum]

Slightly off topic, but may I ask a question? It's two-fold:
1)How much power do the different engines make in stock condition?
2)How much power can one expect from each engine with simple mods - i.e. the most popular upgrades without spending outrageous $$$$$$.

Tough to use WHP comparisions, because this car will be 2wd vs. awd...

The EJ20 off a 02-05 WRX makes around 230 (227) HP, that's about 160-175 whp depending on the dyno, so figure 175-195 ish whp without AWD?

While the 06-07 WRX EJ25 is rated at a similar peak output, they tend to make about 250 ish at the crank, at best guess. I.E. a stock 06-07 WRX is putting down around 20 more whp (180-200) to the ground than a stock 02-05 WRX, despite the claimed same/similar peak output.

With some exhaust work and a mild off-the-shelf tune, you're looking at around 280 ish crank HP from the EJ20 (very reliable), and actually a similar peak number for the EJ25, as the turbo is the limiting factor on the top end of both engines. So both motors make about the same peak power at "stage 2" levels (exhaust + reflash). However the EJ25 will be MUCH stronger through the middle. Upgrading the turbo really opens up the potential of the EJ25 though.


I know we were referencing WRX longblocks in these two posts, but I'd just like to add in some data regarding STI longblocks.

Many people say the stock intercooler is a restriction and change it out because it's a cheap upgrade. ~ Unneeded.

Many people say the stock turbo is too small to make much power over stock. ~ Overblown

Stock STI longblocks with nothing but some simple upgrades like huge injectors, E85 tune, etc are capable of putting 350+ TO THE WHEELS. Doing standard AWD drivetrain losses that's nearly 450 crank HP! And that stock turbo will offer almost instant full boost in 5th cruising over 45mph. I've ridden in stock curb weighted STI's with that kind of power and setup and I can say it's quite monstrous.

Granted, many of us will be building these with WRX donors, so I know it's not exactly relevant. Especially when we consider how little power will really be needed to be INSANELY fast in the 818 chassis. My point is that people make assumptions about what's capable with a STI motor on a tight budget, but really it comes down to the tuner. And though I completely agree with the responses to this topic thus far, the WRX motor is no different. If you're a skilled tuner you can get a LOT of power with some creative solutions to simple problems. And it doesn't cost the world to do.

To avoid costly turbo upgrades, and to keep spool fast, you can also experiment with doing water injection into the turbo, which will dramatically reduce charge temp and thus improve compressor efficiency as well, essentially raising the MAX CFM flow of the compressor. Having a tight wallet is usually the real mother of invention.



There are a handful of E85 stations nearby but tuning for ONLY E85 is not an option for me. The Flex Fuel sensors out of another OEM can be used with some of the newer megasquirt revs, is that the only chance for dual-fuel compatibility?

I don't care about off boost response and "low end" I will have a turbo, I needs me some whoosh.

You can just keep a laptop handy and flash via tactrix cable. I'm not exactly sure (but can find out for you if needed) but I think you might be able to modify the stock ECU with a variable table adjustment driven by the GM sensor. I personally don't feel that's a reliable way to do it though, because you need to adjust timing as well as fuel, and it's a dynamic change, not just level across the board.





10k? I was looking at getting an EJ207 and it was 8k for the engine and transmission, or 3k for just the engine. 10k is way too much unless you're getting a fully built crawford engine. There are places that pull engines out of wrecked STIs and resell them. That's probably the cheapest way to go.

Also, I'm no expert but I have heard nothing but bad things about the hybrid engines. I would avoid them like the plague personally. You won't need 2.5L in an 1800# car.

Word. My buddy just built a new shortblock that's basically a 2010 STI shortblock WITH extra work + some of the best aftermarket pistons readily available. He had his heads ported by one of the most respected porters in the subie world on the west coast here, and though not a radical head job, it's not exactly basic. I think he's got less than $3,000 into his longblock and it'll probably be able to make 700+ AWHP. He's not going to shoot for that, but it's basically ready to.

Granted he got some killer deals along the way, and some favors from friends, but all in all it's amazing how cheap an amazing motor can be built for. I couldn't touch these prices with many of the other motors I've played around with.

[PhyrraM]

IMHO, You set you power goals first, then build your motor to it.

All the critical dimension, such as ring end gap, piston to wall clearance and bearing oil gaps, change as you increase power (and heat load). An engine "built to take 700HP" will be horribly loose if you only put 400HP through it. This looseness manifests itself as noise, oil consumption and reduced service life.

If you choose your clearances for 400HP, they will all close up and cause excessive wear if you later try to push for 700HP.

Personally, I can't imagine any sane person wanting more than 300ish HP for the street in an 1800 pound, low polar moment, 818. Maybe I'm just old, with kids, etc.....

[Gollum]

IMHO, You set you power goals first, then build your motor to it.

All the critical dimension, such as ring end gap, piston to wall clearance and bearing oil gaps, change as you increase power (and heat load). An engine "built to take 700HP" will be horribly loose if you only put 400HP through it. This looseness manifests itself as noise, oil consumption and reduced service life.

If you choose your clearances for 400HP, they will all close up and cause excessive wear if you later try to push for 700HP.

Personally, I can't imagine any sane person wanting more than 300ish HP for the street in an 1800 pound, low polar moment, 818. Maybe I'm just old, with kids, etc.....

All good points! And as such I should mention that the engine I referred to in my last post was built to withstand 700hp, but due to clearances wouldn't be a motor to "live" at 700awhp. He's currently got things gapped and set to be able to "live" at around 450-500awhp which he "thinks" is plenty for him. I keep telling him he's just going to end up pulling it apart to rebuild it for more power, but we'll see.

[Inthenameofweez]

Please don't knock the hybrid engine. It's a perfectly reliable engine when done properly. Just as any engine modifications.

I do agree that >300wtq will be too much for this car though.

[Gollum]

I do agree that >300wtq will be too much for this car though.

Ironic considering your signature. :-P

[Inthenameofweez]

Semantics... :)

[Subaru_Guy]

A hybrid is NOT a completely reliable engine, unless you machine the 2.0 heads to match the 2.5 block. Sure, thicker headgaskets can bring overall compression ratio down, but it is by no means ideal. The resulting combustion chamber shape remains inefficient since you're leaving the 2.0l chamber in the heads untouched. You are in essence reducing the effectiveness of the quench area and introducing several sharp edges to the combustion chamber that can build up heat and cause knock. This makes the engine less efficient than a full EJ257 with EJ257 heads. There are several machine shops around with cad systems set up to machine 2.0 heads to match the sti heads. They all charge about $400. This is cheaper and maybe easier than fooling with the avcs and drive by wire, however, you will get increased low end torque and better reliability out of a sti long block with avcs. Without machining the 2.0 heads, you will get knock, and subaru rod bearings do not like knock (trust me). Clark Turner, one of the most well known subaru tuners, told me a while back that he has stopped tuning hybrids with stock 2.0 heads because so many of them come back with spun bearings or cracked ringlands.

If you want to learn more about subaru engines and transmissions, there are plenty of subaru dedicated forums (www.nasioc.com being one of the largest) with more info than you could read in a lifetime. As with any forum though, there are a lot of people on them claiming to be experts that actually have no idea of what they are talking about... so be careful. If you are looking for complete running engines and transmissions check out the car part out threads in classified section. I think you will be surprised at how easy they are to find and how affordable they are. I bought a complete 04 sti from an auction with a parts only title. I kept the engine, transmission, rear diff, and engine wiring harness for my 02 wrx and sold the rest. I still ended up with almost 3k in profit.

[Oppenheimer]

S_G, you mention the Subie forums For Sale classifieds being a good resource for drivetrain components, but you also then mention your success with buying a complete car from an auction. What auction, where? I'm guessing some kind of insurance auction, I'd like to know more about how to find such auctions.

Thx

[Subaru_Guy]

I got one from copart. You have to have a dealer license to buy from most insurance autions, which is why I mentioned the classifieds on the forums

[305mouse]

The more I think about this 818, the more I believe I am overthinking it. This will be almost half the weight of a WRX. As stated before, the load on the transmission will be less due to weight and using the front diff only. I had planned to build an engine and look for the perfect tranny. I may just stick with an oem 2.0 block, do some mild headwork for better flow, use a twinscroll turbo and just a few other minor things and call it a day. If I'm putting down 400+ HP on a 1800 pound rwd car it's not going to be that steetable. A 300 hp engine will be great on the road and all sorts of fun on the track. Finding the perfect tranny with the right gearing for me is going to be a process though I think.

[Subaru_Guy]

300 hp and 300 lb/ft at the wheels is not very difficult at all to get out of a stock internals 2.0, and they are still usually quite reliable. Upgrade the turbo, exhaust, injectors, intercooler, fuel pump, and intake and you're there. I ran 300 hp 305 lb/ft at the wheels on my wrx with my stock 5sp for 130k miles with no issues, and then sold the stock trans after my complete sti swap (the guy I sold it to has put an additional 20k miles on it). If you reduce the vehicle weight substantially and convert it to two wheel drive, you should have no problems with the transmission whatsoever. Even with a 3k+ lb wrx you have to abuse and shock load the tranny to break it.

[Gollum]

300 hp and 300 lb/ft at the wheels is not very difficult at all to get out of a stock internals 2.0, and they are still usually quite reliable. Upgrade the turbo, exhaust, injectors, intercooler, fuel pump, and intake and you're there. I ran 300 hp 305 lb/ft at the wheels on my wrx with my stock 5sp for 130k miles with no issues, and then sold the stock trans after my complete sti swap (the guy I sold it to has put an additional 20k miles on it). If you reduce the vehicle weight substantially and convert it to two wheel drive, you should have no problems with the transmission whatsoever. Even with a 3k+ lb wrx you have to abuse and shock load the tranny to break it.

Also don't forget that your 300 awhp setup will put a good bit more to the wheels in FWD mode. All wheel drive train losses are the pits.

[Inthenameofweez]

Ugh. I will stop posting in my own thread now. Enjoy your 818 powered by Subaru!!

[Gollum]

Ugh. I will stop posting in my own thread now. Enjoy your 818 powered by Subaru!!

You upset because people want to knock hybrid setups? Let them. People are allowed to have their own opinion, and you've shared yours with your experience. It's up to everyone else to decide what's BS and what's not. And not that I've thought anything you had to say wasn't worth saying, but just because it's someones thread doesn't mean they get to control what people say. As long as it's all good healthy discussion I'm always all for it.

I do look forward to what else you have to share with the community here.

[Subaru_Guy]

It's nothing personal weez. Sure it can work, but is it ideal... Nope. My first hybrid cracked a ringland at 20k miles. My second hybrid spun a rod bearing right after serious knock during dyno tuning. The first one was a stock block with 1.5mm head gaskets, the second one was with stock sti head gaskets and 8.0:1 je pistons. I've learned from experience.

[Inthenameofweez]

Ringlands break. 2.5L combustion chamber or not. It's the weakest link in any 2.5L Subaru engine. Even with factory boost levels in some situations. Many things can cause a spun bearing as well.

My point is: neither of your experiences can be specifically caused by the lack of machining of cylinder heads. I don't agree with discouraging a budget build by using OEM 2.0L heads with a 2.5L block simply because of those 2 instances. Especially in a community that knows very little about Subaru engines. Snake Oil is not a good product to be selling. Proven facts are all that need to be brought up. My engine with many others that have been cleaned, measured, assembled, and tuned by professionals (and E85) have all lasted 20+ and many times 50+ without issue.

There is no sense in arguing the matter. There are many threads in NASIOC about the issue. I don't think it deserves any more attention. We've both presented our opinions.

[Flamshackle]

The more I think about this 818, the more I believe I am overthinking it.

You can never overthink an addiction :D



This will be almost half the weight of a WRX. As stated before, the load on the transmission will be less due to weight and using the front diff only. I had planned to build an engine and look for the perfect tranny...
Finding the perfect tranny with the right gearing for me is going to be a process though I think.

Not sure what you are trying to say here??? the std 5speed trans with a mechanical front LSD will be absolutely fine to handle the 300HP your talking about. if your worried about it then give it a set of MRT unbreakable gears found here... http://www.mrtrally.com.au/performance/gearsets.htm

seriously thought the standard trans should be good for around 250-300 without to many probs. also for the unbreakable gear set you could buy 6 or 7 second hand boxes... just food for thought.

[PhyrraM]

Barring minor intricacies of turbo motors, the torque applied to the gearset will be the same regardless of vehicle weight. 300ft/lbs at the input shaft will always create the same torque inside and out of the gearbox, because the torque multiplication of any particular gear does not change.

There are two variables that will change: A> The TIME that the torque is applied and B> the torque level at which the car loses traction. Both of which are reduced in the 818 because of the drastic reduction in weight.

The 818 will simply spend much less time in each gear. All other things being equal, the torque from the engine and through the gearbox is exactly the same as if it was a WRX, however the lower mass of the vehicle means faster acceleration and less time in each gear.

The real question, and one that I have never seen a clear concensus on, is What breaks the WRX tranny? If it's torque, and nothing more, the 818 is no safer on the 5 speed. However, if it's shock, repeated overload over time, maintenance, etc....The 818 should fare much better than a WRX.

Losing traction can be seen as simply a fuse to protect the gearbox. The 818 may be light enough to prevent a certain level of peak torque from running through the gears, but it may also not be.

In either case, simply stating the 818 will see less torque through the gearbox - simply because it's lighter and has less drive wheels - is false. It will see the same amount of torque, but for less time.


Disclaimer---because of the nature of turbos, weight will play a small role in torque delivery. But very likely to such a minor degree as to be insignificant to the gearbox conversation.

[Inthenameofweez]

In the cases I've witnessed and been victim of, the quickest way to kill a WRX transmission is immediate delivery of a high shock load of torque. Fast transfer of power with a single disc 6 puck metallic clutch killed my second gear (tore every tooth from driven gear and 3/4 of drive gear). Many drag racers are using twin disc clutches to slow the power transfer. Same with road racers. For DDability and reliability also.

I think the fun part of this car will be returning my power/drive train to stock with the exception of forged pistons (2.0L with factory turbo) and going through the same process of modifying the car as I went through with AWD and a heavy *** wagon. Everything known will change in some way shape or form. With my high torque, the shorter gear ratios of a JDM transmission were horribly boring. I couldn't enjoy the power. This transmission in a lower torque/HP engine will be a lot of fun with a smaller car. I'm also lucky enough to have an OEM front LSD from Japan as well. I'm still hoping for capability to put 9-10 inch wheels for a 255-275 rear tire just to ensure that if the chassis is able to contain more power, I can introduce large amount of traction for uber track racing fun.

The 818-R is currently drifting through my mind. Literally. Ungh. So sexy.

[Oppenheimer]

"Finding the perfect tranny with the right gearing for me is going to be a process though I think."

Not sure what you are trying to say here???

I believe 305 was refering to finding the optimal gear ratios for the 818. Figuring out which stock Subie tranny would offer the best compromise of gearing for the 818. Something he could pick up from a scrap yard or someone parting out a car, that he would not have to buy a new gearset.

I think that is a very worthwhile effort. But we'll probably have to wait to see what works and what doesn't once the car is available.

[Gollum]

In the cases I've witnessed and been victim of, the quickest way to kill a WRX transmission is immediate delivery of a high shock load of torque.

I've seen them blow from shock loads as well. It's certainly a problem that the lower weight of the 818 should help.

Unfortunately I've seen them blow from torque as well. As soon as you get over around 380 lbs of torque it can be a ticking time bomb. I've seen guys just accelerating from a roll in 2nd (read, no shock load) just shred 2nd once boost kicked in.

My theory is case flex. For many (maybe even most) transmissions case flex is the #1 reason for failure. The torque applied on the input forces and load on the output forces the shafts to separate, and if the case isn't strong enough to withstand the torque input then the flexes so much that you're bound to break gears. Case flex is the reason the T5 tranny can't withstand much power. You can load it with $3k worth of gears and then go explode it with around 500lbs of torque. The real solution is aftermarket cases, like what Gforce sells.

So you might ask "so why does aftermarket gears help for most people if case flex is the issue?". Well my answer would be that the thicker teeth are less likely to fail because they have to travel further before reaching sheering threshold. As you can see in the picture bellow, aftermarket gears usually have CONSIDERABLY more meat on them, thus as the gears mesh there's much more contact surface. This means with an equal input, the gears would have to get further apart before breaking.

3782

We've talked about the transmission issue over and over, and in the end we'll just have to wait and see and find out who breaks their transmission and under what circumstance.

[305mouse]

I believe 305 was refering to finding the optimal gear ratios for the 818. Figuring out which stock Subie tranny would offer the best compromise of gearing for the 818. Something he could pick up from a scrap yard or someone parting out a car, that he would not have to buy a new gearset.

I think that is a very worthwhile effort. But we'll probably have to wait to see what works and what doesn't once the car is available.

Bingo, there are many different transmissions out there with different gearings and all should bolt up no problem. It's just reasearching more to find out what I want and how I expect to drive this car.