Body quality and prep required [Archive]

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merim123

08-28-2018, 08:22 AM

As I continue my research, I'm curious if the latest MK4 body has improved in terms of prep required? I hold up Ultima GTR and Superlite cars as what I would love as a standard. You can basically buff the gelcoat on those and go with it.

Based on my research over the years, there is at least 5-10k of body work at a professional shop or hundreds of hours at home and all the dust. Is that still accurate?

Not looking to bash, just for me I'd say it's the number #1 thing that keeps me from ordering a car every year :(

GFX2043mtu

08-28-2018, 08:40 AM

The body’s are not a buff and done thing on the FFR cobra if you want a show finish. But then the cobra body is one piece front to back so it can’t be molded as one piece, unlike some other cars that have several separate panels. What this means is that the cobra has seams in the gell coat that need to be addressed. The body itself has some flaws to work out. If you do it your self the hours put in are determined by your skill and how far you want to take it when it comes to the smallest details. I went kinda overboard on mine and spent a lot of hours with professionals helping. I can’t speak to what a place like Whitbys would charge for the body work and paint but I would estimate in the $12k-$13k depending on the paint you want and stripes or no stripes. To me you can’t compare a ultima kit to a FFR as they are different cars on different price levels with there own unique challenges. In the end both can look equally good with a nod to the cobra as it’s a timeless design and I’m a sucker for the classics.

Jeff Kleiner

08-28-2018, 09:56 AM

Merim123,
I replied to your PM last week although it wasn't specifically relating to body & paint (send me another if you'd like my pricing and further info on that subject). Lets just say that while there have been improvements over the years they still require a lot of work to straighten them out and fit all of the panels.

Jeff

edwardb

08-28-2018, 11:20 AM

...But then the cobra body is one piece front to back so it can’t be molded as one piece, unlike some other cars that have several separate panels. What this means is that the cobra has seams in the gel coat that need to be addressed...

Unless I'm misunderstanding, a little confused by this statement. The Factory Five Roadster bodies are molded as a single layup. In a multi-piece mold. Not including of course the doors, hood and trunk lid. The lines in the gel coat are parting lines where the various mold pieces separate after layup.

To the OP's question -- I've had a Mk3 and two Mk4's. Have only seen pictures of earlier Mk's. No question the newer ones are better. My Mk4's are much better than the Mk3 I had. Plus they have some things molded in that used to be common mods, like hidden body mounts, rolled edge around the cockpit and wheel lips, etc. But as Jeff said they still require a lot of work. Somewhere in the 125 - 150 - 175 hour range. Depends on experience with these, the quality level you're going for, color and stripe options, etc. My body guy said one of the reasons for the amount of time is the shape. Even though it's small, almost all the work has to be done by hand. No amount of improved mold or glass work is going to change that. Agree it's not fair to compare with the price level of RCR, etc. Whole other end of the spectrum.

merim123

08-28-2018, 11:44 AM

Thanks for feedback and thanks Jeff, I will call you. I would like to find someone local to me that is building one to see how the physical fit of me is in it. IF anyone in NW Chicago burbs is reading and they have a project or finished car, I would love to see it and see if it is a fit. I'm going to Sept 8th British car show (NW Burbs CHicago) where I see a few Cobra's every year (just haven't been to that show in about 5 years)

GoDadGo

08-28-2018, 12:52 PM

David Hodgkins

08-28-2018, 01:12 PM

Just think, all those years you passed because of body seams, you could be DRIVING by now instead!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1027&d=1300396211

I drove mine in this configuration for years! ALMOST didn't want to paint it; I loved it being so raw. Still got TONS of thumbs-ups!

Of course, they do clean up VERY nicely once you decide to go to paint:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10786&d=1342915656

You mentioned fit - I'm 6'6", 320lbs, size sixteen shoe:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=66239&d=1491862880

No matter how any individual car fits you, you can tailor YOUR car to be very comfortable up to my size and beyond! I once had a 6'11" guy get in and he could shut the door and work the pedals!

:)

merim123

08-28-2018, 01:46 PM

Just think, all those years you passed because of body seams, you could be DRIVING by now instead!

You mentioned fit - I'm 6'6", 320lbs, size sixteen shoe:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=66239&d=1491862880

:)

HA! Good point. I still have my Camaro I'm trying to finish up some small ends on but you are right, a body in gelcoat could be a way to enjoy too. Now as to how you made the mods for you to fit, please share! That is exactly the info I'm looking for :)

merim123

08-28-2018, 01:57 PM

For what it is worth, not all MK-4 bodies are created equal!

Mine is a 8 out of 10 (Not Marine Grade But Good Enough) but my buddy had a body that wasn't nearly as nice.
I don't know why they vary in quality; however, I do feel fortunate that mine was likely better than most.

https://youtu.be/IGYtX-3p7xk

That does look pretty good vs some of the others I've seen. your seams are very thin, i've seen some with far more buildup. Also - what steering wheel is that? I like it. My setup will be LSx...as that is all I know... and have plenty of parts laying around.

GoDadGo

08-28-2018, 02:30 PM

That does look pretty good vs some of the others I've seen. your seams are very thin, i've seen some with far more buildup. Also - what steering wheel is that? I like it. My setup will be LSx...as that is all I know... and have plenty of parts laying around.

Here is my steering wheel set up:

Quick Release From Jegs:
https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/60722/10002/-1

Steering Wheel From Grant:
https://www.jegs.com/i/Grant/470/692/10002/-1

Center Emblem From Ecklers Corvette Parts:
https://www.ecklerscorvette.com/corvette-valve-cover-emblem-aluminum-lt1-l82-1969-1982.html

The Emblem fit perfectly in the center with no gap what so ever so I figured what the heck.

GoDadGo

08-28-2018, 02:33 PM

NOTE:

Since you likely haven't set your engine, then you may want to scoot it around a bit so that the exhaust port center-line is inline with the exit point of the side pipes. This location may allow you to use Shoenfeld IMCA Adjustable Headers. The part number is 161-33 LS1 while allowing you the most engine room possible.

http://www.schoenfeldheaders.com/imcaump-modified4.html

I used their "Shorty" version of the IMCA adjustable headers for my original test runs so if you haven't set the engine yet, you may want to consider moving it forward a bit. You can see where I placed my standard SBC in the video shown below. I now have their 161-33 SBC and I just had to cut the tubes down to make them work for my application.

https://youtu.be/_wnHDNgnNqs

Also my front to rear and left to right weight ratio's are insanely good. The Go-Kart weighed in at 2,505 pounds (Iron Heads, Block,ZF 6-Speed & Moser Dana 44 Rear) and the car was within 5-10 pounds on each wheel after we scaled the sucker and adjusted the coil-overs and sway bar. 620-630 lbs per wheel shocked the heck out of me to say the least.

Good Luck!

Steve

Jeff Kleiner

08-28-2018, 03:35 PM

That does look pretty good vs some of the others I've seen. your seams are very thin, i've seen some with far more buildup....

Everyone gets caught up on the "seams" which aren't seams at all but actually are the mold parting lines as edwardb noted. I guess that must be because they are so visible but the reality is that they are a minor part of the whole process. See this...

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=92129&d=1532310142

...about 40 minutes with the DA and those lines with all of the boogers are gone. The time is in matching the shape of doors, hood and trunk to the main body, finishing the wheelwell openings and front valance contour, filling holes and taking out the cellulite looking ripples. Some of the worst looking parting lines are on some of the cleanest and straightest bodies and vice-versa.

Jeff

92129

GoDadGo

08-28-2018, 03:37 PM

Jeff,

Your "Pic" gives us all a great reference point regarding the initial "Mold Parting Line" cut down process.
Thanks for sharing your expertise with us.

Steve

R. Button

08-28-2018, 05:41 PM

I don't often do this as I usually stay on the sidelines when the comments come in about the bodies and other issues with the FFR cars.
Back in 1997 I drove to the old FFR offices to pickup my car. Or what I hoped would be my car. I had no idea IF I could built it nor if once built it would run! And when I arrived home with the chassis on the Uhaul trailer and unloaded all the boxes of parts.

92139

I had loaded the chassis on a Uhaul trailer with 2 pieces of 5/8" plywood bolted to the trailer to give me a flat surface to put the chassis on.
That's what an in the raw Mark I looked like back in the day.

Then there was the figure out the parts and what they were for...(this was well before the days of camera phones and at best a basic digital cameras with low resolution images)
92140 92141

There were moments when I was not nearly as sure could I build a car! BUT Henry Ford did it so...

Months of work during the cold winters in Maine. Out in the old carriage house behind the house. Construction heater running most of the time that you had to get use to the roar of the heater!

During the winter I learned about back ordered parts. FFR was working on improving their parts on hand but due to the growing popularity of these cars they had a very difficult time with back orders. But to me it was the best part of the build... almost every other day I would come home to find a box on the porch with the FFR label on them. Each day was like Christmas, "what part(s) were in the box!" The UPS guy finally asked what was in the boxes so I showed him the "raw" car and explained he was carrying up hill, to the house, every part he saw on the car. He was delivering a car to us part by part! He really wasn't but it was fun telling him that. After that he was always guessing what part might be in the box(es)!

By the early spring I had a running car and now came the body work!

Did I mention I'm NOT a body work person! AND I not really fond of body work!

But I stuck with it took a lot more breaks but kept coming back to sand and sand and sand some more. As noted the early bodies needed a bit more work than the current ones.

Finally it was ok I give up just paint it and move on so I read all I could on painting a car - was on first name basis with the local NAPA parts person that was also a body shop supplier. So I got all the supplies and paint from him. Got a compressor and a gun, a simple mask, and hung plastic from the ceiling to the floor, to create a paint booth! Then two huge window fans and I was ready.... I can see The Batman now falling on the floor laughing his … off with you painted it how? In what barn??? This was 1998 and no one cared about paint blowing all over the snow outside!

It was done and the body was put on the car. Fired up the car and pulled it out of the carriage house/barn. I forgot that the rear fender flares stuck out a bit and I caught the passenger side rear flare on the edge of the old barn door as I backed out! It snapped the fiberglass into the tire and it bounced back out as soon as it cleared the door. It all happened really quickly. But to me time stopped as I got out to look at the what I expected to be a shattered body! Nope not shattered but the clear coat was well cracked all around the gas filler! So I sat in the wet snow for a few minutes then realized it's a car - you have your first mark on it now drive it!

So drive it I did and am still driving it! The people I have met all along the way I would never have met otherwise. To those that have one of these cars know what it's like to just stop for gas, only to have people that normally would never "see you" now want to talk about "the car". This does not happen to a Vette, (my brother-in-law has a new Vette and gives me a hard time about people wanting to talk to me and not him when we're out driving or a Porsche or most any other car.

Some of these cars have been built that are awesome looking with incredible body work and interior details! Some build their car and drive it in gel coat for months. Thus the ones into the details are going to take longer and require more body work to get the gaps just right. I REALLY admire those built cars as their attention to detail is way beyond what I'm capable of! Those are the cars you look over really carefully to find ideas that you can incorporate into your build.

Me I just love to drive it. With great care - also trying to avoid the 4 legged wild life too!

92142 From traveling through Texas and finding the old gas stations to 92143 taking a rest at the Charlotte Motor Sport track in-between on track sessions! I'm out driving my Mark I while my grandchildren wait to see who get's grandpa's car when he's done with it! :) they have a long while to wait and many more miles down the road!
92144

wltrmtty

08-28-2018, 08:08 PM

Ralph, this is so cool. Just minutes ago I watched the YouTube video of you driving to the Shelby meet in Las Vegas. That was very inspiring!

chuckster

08-28-2018, 08:11 PM

I wasn’t going to let this summer go by with this car in the body shop,(that’s what New England winters are for). We’re driving it in gelcoat and having a blast.

DadofThree

08-29-2018, 01:13 PM

I wasn’t going to let this summer go by with this car in the body shop,(that’s what New England winters are for). We’re driving it in gelcoat and having a blast.

Yep. I agree. I'm in Epoxy sealer with badly fitted doors/hood and trunk. Having a BLAST with lots of thumbs up, conversations, new experiences and a FUN car!! Just build it.

(All Pics from within the Last Week)

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1875/44306823601_46f292ba1d_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2avf42K)Franklin, NC Deep South Cobra Club (https://flic.kr/p/2avf42K) by D. R. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/annabellerose/), on Flickr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1895/44306839141_dc743648de_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2avf8DF)Franklin, NC Deep South Cobra Club (https://flic.kr/p/2avf8DF) by D. R. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/annabellerose/), on Flickr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1866/30332468948_6c5560f2cd_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/NdnQfy)2018-08-22_11-58-06 (https://flic.kr/p/NdnQfy) by D. R. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/annabellerose/), on Flickr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1859/44259074982_dc2f708987_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ar2k2G)Franklin, NC Deep South Cobra Club (https://flic.kr/p/2ar2k2G) by D. R. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/annabellerose/), on Flickr

ThickCobra

08-29-2018, 05:08 PM

Everyone gets caught up on the "seams" which aren't seams at all but actually are the mold parting lines as edwardb noted. I guess that must be because they are so visible but the reality is that they are a minor part of the whole process. See this...

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=92129&d=1532310142

...about 40 minutes with the DA and those lines with all of the boogers are gone. The time is in matching the shape of doors, hood and trunk to the main body, finishing the wheelwell openings and front valance contour, filling holes and taking out the cellulite looking ripples. Some of the worst looking parting lines are on some of the cleanest and straightest bodies and vice-versa.

Jeff

92129

Even all mudded up, the car looks gorgeous.

Jeff Kleiner

08-29-2018, 07:01 PM

Even all mudded up, the car looks gorgeous.

That's not all mudded up...this is all mudded up:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=92217&d=1535586859

:)

Jeff

92217

wltrmtty

08-29-2018, 08:22 PM

I'm going to have my car professionally painted, but I'd like to do some of the clean up - the mud work, if you will. How do I go about learning how to do that?

GFX2043mtu

08-29-2018, 09:38 PM

I was referring to the cobra body being continuous front to rear. Unlike most modern and vintage cars that have separate fenders, rockers, etc that could be poped out of a mold as one piece, bolted on and look ok for a unfinished part. This simply can’t happen with a cobra and seams are a necessity with a mold. My reference was more focused on what a finished body looks like. Also most if not all shops won’t do paint work or at least warranty it if they don’t do the body work. The exception is if they know you and they know you know exactly what you are doing. A lot of the time they spend more time fixing previous work then if they started from scratch.

edwardb

08-29-2018, 09:45 PM

Just puttering

08-30-2018, 04:59 PM

[QUOTE=Jeff Kleiner;338142]That's not all mudded up...this is all mudded up:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=92217&d=1535586859

:)

Sorry for the side note, but that big mirror on the wall and the reflection of what the car is going to be is really cool!!!

ThickCobra

08-30-2018, 05:49 PM

That's rather funny.

merim123

08-31-2018, 08:06 AM

this is a link i've saved for the taller guys. I'm curious if anyone here has made these specific mods https://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/1161-tall-driver-seats-detailed-pictures.html

wltrmtty

08-31-2018, 09:22 PM

SSNK4US

09-23-2018, 06:16 PM

Also another thing to consider is definitely talk to whoever is painting/body working on your car. You can read endless things that people do on here to “prep” your body. I talked to DaBat at a couple of Newport Beach shows and he said “leave it alone”.
I’ve worked professionally with body shops for 20+ years, the last thing they want to do is try and fix your “prep”
I’m sure Jeff and DaBat would agree? Door, hood and trunk figment and filler is really important. People like them know the car and what needs to be done... worth the money to do it right. Just my two cents...

Kurt

(If you guys want my paypal account for paying me to advertise for you just let me know) LOL!!!