Upper control arms & Rough Alignment Mk4

[NA5KAR]

I just posted this on the "Ask an FFR Tech' section, but wanted to ask here as well.

Thanks in advance for your help. I have a complete kit and just started my build. My upper control arms arrived with the pivot bars upside down. I reversed them so that the grease fittings are facing up. Question number 1 ... can someone look at my attached pics and verify that I got the upper control arms installed correctly? Question 2 ... in the complete kit manual, there is a page for Rough Alignment. The drawing shows the passenger side arm. It mentions the drivers side arm but does not say how the alignment should be set up on that one. The challenge for me is that if I take the drivers side arm and just rotate it 180 degrees from the passenger side (where the clevis bolt on the ball joint plate is toward the front of the car), the clevis bolt on the (drivers side) ball joint plate is toward the back of the car. For the Drivers side, this does not allow me to measure the 6.875" distance from the pivot bolt to the clevis bolt on the front side. Sorry if this is confusing. I did a photoshop drawing of what I am talking about. It is attached. My guess is that for the drivers side, I can only measure the distances from the pivot bolts to the grease fitting. Thanks again. Dan

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[Boydster]

Since you're only doing a rough alignment, make a dot where the bolt would be on the welded clevis, then measure to that. Its all just a guess at this point, as you need to have weight and set ride height before doing any real aligning. All you're looking for is something close so it can be pushed around the shop when it gets tires. And so it doesnt look goofy when you show it to people. ;) I didnt even bother with rough alignment until it was on the ground.

Far as I can see, all your control arm, steering arm and ball joints look good.

[edwardb]

The upper control arms are standard commercially available parts, and come from the supplier "upside down" for our application. Factory Five shows them properly installed in the manual, and notes the proper ball joint angle (pointing out) but unfortunately doesn't specifically say they need to be disassembled and flipped over to be configured this way. At least that I recall. So many miss that step and end up having to re-do them. Yours appears to be correct. The zerks are point up, meaning the pivot is toward the top as it's supposed to be. And your ball joints are angled correctly. So good job on that.

Regarding the rough alignment. Don't overthink at this stage and don't get hung up on one side of the ball joint plate being fixed and the other side being bolted. Yes the fixed portion is on the front on one side and on the back on the other. But it works OK. At this stage of the build, adjust them the same on both sides and call it done until it's all together, at ride height, and a proper alignment can be done. I adjust them so there's 1/2-inch or so of threads showing on both ends of the adjusters on the front, and 1/8-inch or so of threads showing on both ends of the rear adjusters. Again, regardless of which side is fixed versus bolted. This will get you in the ballpark. Don't worry if it still doesn't look exactly right. Hard to tell too much with the suspension at full droop.

[NA5KAR]

Thanks guys for the reassurance. I can get hung up on details and now I can move forward.

[boat737]

In your photo-shop diagram, looks like the driver-side dimensions need to be swapped front to back. Make the DS rear UCA the shorter of the two (like you have on the pass-side). As already noted though, it's not that critical at this stage.

[NA5KAR]

Thanks boat737. edwardb and Boydster gave me great reassurance that I don't need to be perfect with the alignment at this point. I really appreciate your perspective about how to properly set up the drivers side (rough align) for now. It looked really off the way I did it. Yes, I actually set it up like the photoshop pic. Back to the garage.

[CraigS]

I would skip the measurement to the outer bolt altogether. Just use the measurements from the inner bolt to the ball joint grease fitting. As boat said, you want the 8.23 dimension on the front of both UCAs. One other thing to check is the rear sleeve. You may need to get it as short as possible to get enough caster. So be sure that the threads on both ends bottom out at the same time (as close as possible).

[boat737]

I would skip the measurement to the outer bolt altogether. Just use the measurements from the inner bolt to the ball joint grease fitting. As boat said, you want the 8.23 dimension on the front of both UCAs. One other thing to check is the rear sleeve. You may need to get it as short as possible to get enough caster. So be sure that the threads on both ends bottom out at the same time (as close as possible).

I should have mentioned, that I did shorten the rear UCA sleeves and rods. If I remember right, it was about 3/16" on each sleeve end and rod end. Not everyone has had to do that, others on the forum have. I used a band saw for the pieces I could get off of the car, and a saws-all/cutoff saw for the PS welded rod on the upper ball joint mount while on the car.

[NA5KAR]

I would skip the measurement to the outer bolt altogether. Just use the measurements from the inner bolt to the ball joint grease fitting. As boat said, you want the 8.23 dimension on the front of both UCAs. One other thing to check is the rear sleeve. You may need to get it as short as possible to get enough caster. So be sure that the threads on both ends bottom out at the same time (as close as possible).

Thanks Craig. That is exactly what I did.

[NA5KAR]

I should have mentioned, that I did shorten the rear UCA sleeves and rods. If I remember right, it was about 3/16" on each sleeve end and rod end. Not everyone has had to do that, others on the forum have. I used a band saw for the pieces I could get off of the car, and a saws-all/cutoff saw for the PS welded rod on the upper ball joint mount while on the car.

That's a great option. I was able to get the numbers right on point with the adjustments. I know it is only a rough adjustment, but its better than not doing it.

[CraigS]

My experience w/ 4 friends MkIV alignments is that you can get 6.5 deg caster and 1/4 to 1/2 deg camber w/o shortening the rear sleeve. And usually you will have one sleeve bottomed out and then match the other to it.. One we could only get 1/4 deg camber but it is going to be a street car only so we left it at that. If you are going to use power steering, I'd shorten the rear sleeves a little now so you are not locked into a caster number.

[Clover]

I want to thank everyone for there help on this too. I am just about to do this on my build and have found the info in this thread to be very helpful and will probably save me time. This community really is a terrify resource.

[toadster]

bump! I wish I would have seen this before last night :)

seems this is a requirement for flexibility in alignment, otherwise you'll only get 6.5 deg caster and 1/4 to 1/2 deg camber w/o shortening the rear sleeve

[tbl100]

The upper control arms are standard commercially available parts, and come from the supplier "upside down" for our application. Factory Five shows them properly installed in the manual, and notes the proper ball joint angle (pointing out) but unfortunately doesn't specifically say they need to be disassembled and flipped over to be configured this way. At least that I recall. So many miss that step and end up having to re-do them. Yours appears to be correct. The zerks are point up, meaning the pivot is toward the top as it's supposed to be. And your ball joints are angled correctly. So good job on that.

Regarding the rough alignment. Don't overthink at this stage and don't get hung up on one side of the ball joint plate being fixed and the other side being bolted. Yes the fixed portion is on the front on one side and on the back on the other. But it works OK. At this stage of the build, adjust them the same on both sides and call it done until it's all together, at ride height, and a proper alignment can be done. I adjust them so there's 1/2-inch or so of threads showing on both ends of the adjusters on the front, and 1/8-inch or so of threads showing on both ends of the rear adjusters. Again, regardless of which side is fixed versus bolted. This will get you in the ballpark. Don't worry if it still doesn't look exactly right. Hard to tell too much with the suspension at full droop.

Ok, now I'm spooked a bit. When I installed my upper control arms I didn't flip anything. Here are photos of my passenger side. Does it look ok?

123678123679

Thanks

[Jeff Kleiner]

Those are correct.

Jeff

[CraigS]

bump! I wish I would have seen this before last night :)

seems this is a requirement for flexibility in alignment, otherwise you'll only get 6.5 deg caster and 1/4 to 1/2 deg camber w/o shortening the rear sleeve
For anyone who needs the sleeves shortened, I will be glad to do it on my lathe. Send them to me and put a $10 bill in with them. That will cover me shipping them back. One of the USPS flat rate boxes is the easiest. PM me.

[toadster]

For anyone who needs the sleeves shortened, I will be glad to do it on my lathe. Send them to me and put a $10 bill in with them. That will cover me shipping them back. One of the USPS flat rate boxes is the easiest. PM me.

oh lord I may take you up on this...

LOL my skillz are bad with the sawzall...

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wait for it...

123788

:rolleyes:

sanded a bit, but dang,hopefully it's closer to square now...
123820

[ptstew]

For anyone who needs the sleeves shortened, I will be glad to do it on my lathe. Send them to me and put a $10 bill in with them. That will cover me shipping them back. One of the USPS flat rate boxes is the easiest. PM me.

I have a Mk 1.5 car on which I recently installed power steering. My 2001 vintage FFR UCAs are attached to a horizontal slotted plate on both sides. The slots through which the bolts go vertically to attack the arms are ~1.5” wide. My arms are centered in those slots now and my car is set with ~3° positive caster. I want to go to +8° as everyone suggests. Based on my rough calculations I need to move the top of the spindle back about 1” from where it is now to do that. Just moving the mount points in the slots should give me a good bit of that. Any reason to think I won’t be able to get to +8° without triming the rear sleeves?
123844

[rich grsc]

Lets get the saw out and cut up stuff, who needs to check first.. Cut now, measure later.

[Railroad]

I have cut that thing twice and it is still too short!

[toadster]

I have cut that thing twice and it is still too short!

don't you mean too long?

[Jeff Kleiner]

don't you mean too long?

This explains a lot!

Jeff

[rich grsc]

I have cut that thing twice and it is still too short!
Try it in the middle. :rolleyes:

[Railroad]

Tuff crowd, it's a joke. I don't guess anyone built a house with a beginner saw man.

[ptstew]

I have a Mk 1.5 car on which I recently installed power steering. My 2001 vintage FFR UCAs are attached to a horizontal slotted plate on both sides. The slots through which the bolts go vertically to attack the arms are ~1.5” wide. My arms are centered in those slots now and my car is set with ~3° positive caster. I want to go to +8° as everyone suggests. Based on my rough calculations I need to move the top of the spindle back about 1” from where it is now to do that. Just moving the mount points in the slots should give me a good bit of that. Any reason to think I won’t be able to get to +8° without triming the rear sleeves?
123844
I think this got lost in all the saw humor. Anyone got an opinion on it? All my sleeves are now close to centered.

[rich grsc]

I think this got lost in all the saw humor. Anyone got an opinion on it? All my sleeves are now close to centered.

It's easy to just give it a try, and see how much caster you can get. It's not a given that 8* is what you must have, 7*, even 6.5* is a good number to use.

[toadster]

91617

just the two 7.35" distance sleeves need modified - correct? not all 4?

[Jeff Kleiner]

Correct, just the rear sleeves.

And by the way that diagram is incorrect...if you set it like that you'll have positive caster on the passenger side and negative caster on the driver's side. You need both sides to be the same dimensions. For power steering targeting about 8 degrees positive caster and around 1/2 degree negative camber you want the rear legs to measure approximately 7 3/4" from the center of clevis bolt to center of ball joint grease fitting and the front legs to measure approximately 9" from the center of clevis bolt to center of ball joint grease fitting. That'll get you in the ballpark.

Jeff

[ptstew]

It's easy to just give it a try, and see how much caster you can get. It's not a given that 8* is what you must have, 7*, even 6.5* is a good number to use.

Thanks. I’ll see how it goes.
Phil

[toadster]

Correct, just the rear sleeves.

And by the way that diagram is incorrect...if you set it like that you'll have positive caster on the passenger side and negative caster on the driver's side. You need both sides to be the same dimensions. For power steering targeting about 8 degrees positive caster and around 1/2 degree negative camber you want the rear legs to measure approximately 7 3/4" from the center of clevis bolt to center of ball joint grease fitting and the front legs to measure approximately 9" from the center of clevis bolt to center of ball joint grease fitting. That'll get you in the ballpark.

Jeff

oh interesting! the manual just shows one UCA and by the directions it shows that both fronts should be as shown in the picture

I did a quick flip/match - I think this is close to what it should look like - right?

123912

[boat737]

oh interesting! the manual just shows one UCA and by the directions it shows that both fronts should be as shown in the picture

I did a quick flip/match - I think this is close to what it should look like - right?

123912

Sort of. On the left/drivers side, the welded lug on the upper bearing mount will be forward (and the welded lug on the passenger side will be rearward as shown in your diagram). The dimensions are roughly correct.

[magicmarto]

Go to 40 Watt Garage build. John does a great job showing this and why it must get done.
M

[kbmyers]

I know this is an old thread, but it just saved my butt. I was staring at the manual and my upper control arm for way too long before doing a search. I wish the manual had a note that you might need to shorten two of the arms

[CraigS]

I know this is an old thread, but it just saved my butt. I was staring at the manual and my upper control arm for way too long before doing a search. I wish the manual had a note that you might need to shorten two of the arms
I will be glad to shorten those sleeves on my lathe for you. PM me for details. The job is no charge, I just ask that you include a $10 bill w/ the sleeves to cover return shipping.