Power steering or not. Pros and cons

[BadAsp427]

I am completing my order and purchasing my kit. I’m really trying to decide whether I want to spend the extra money on the power steering upgrade as well as the upgrade on the engine for the power steering. I would love to hear some pros and cons for any of you who have driven both. Thanks

[Boydster]

I had never driven a replica Cobra, or Roadster Kit, or whatever you'd like to call it before I started building mine. I did not like the idea of wide, low profile tires being pulled around during slow situations without power steering. Big engines, big brakes, big wheels and tires, manual steering?

But some folks may like their car more simple and straight-forward. No issues, to each his own. Just MHO. :)

[KDubU]

Power steering a big plus IMHO. It's not to say that manual is an issue but PS just makes it a lot more comfortable to drive especially if you live in suburbia/city. Again it may be personal preference but it's an easy mod with the exception of getting the fittings nice and tight so no leaks.

[GoDadGo]

I had the opportunity to drive both before ordering my kit and I went with the manual set up; however, I'm NOT going to be road racing nor Auto-Crossing, but will make few 1/4 mile passes.

It really depends on what you want.

Build Your Dream!

[johnnybgoode]

Power steering also helps to take some of the shock out of the steering system e.g. when going over railroad tracks ect. Scott

[rich grsc]

Had both, would never go back to non-power steering. EVER!

[BB767]

I only have a little over 300 miles on the car so far so take my comment lightly. My steering preference was so on the fence that I have parts for both. I went with the power set up with the thought that it would be easier to take something off than add it later if I changed my mind. So far I am a little disappointed that I went with the power. The road feel is much lighter than I expected and would prefer. It does drive great and is very easy to maneuver with power, but when going through the twisties I would like more feedback from the wheel that is just not there. As everyone will tell you, it is personal preference depending on what kind of driving you will be doing most. Someday in the future when it is cold and rainy outside I may just swap out the power rack for the manual one setting on the shelf. I am not sure how hard it would be to change out with the body and radiator on, can anyone comment on that?

[slpro1207]

My first impression when I drove a roadster without was, “how could such a small light car be so hard to steer at slow speed.” To each his own but power steering make my driving experience so much nicer.

[2bking]

This has been discussed in many threads and there are a lot of opinions. One of the biggest arguments for power steering is the increased caster that can be used. The increased caster provides better stability at freeway speeds by reducing lane wonder. Power steering also makes parking and slow speed turns much easier. If either of these reasons are less important than road feel, then manual steering may suit you best.

[Jeff Kleiner]

It's no secret that edwardb and I are probably the top two proponents of power steering you'll find here. EVERY car I've built has it and EVERY one who asks me is advised to do it. People seem to think that it's all about steering effort, especially some of the "manly men" who like to do some chest thumping but the reality is that is far from the primary reason. Power steering allows you to run much more positive caster which promotes straight line stability and return to center as well as increasing camber gain while cornering. Plain and simple the car just drives down the road better. For autocross and track use it is pretty much mandatory if you really want to be able to get the most out of the car (some of those same manly men find out that there is no way they can truly hustle a manual rack car ;)). As far as "road feel" this can be tuned to the driver's preference either by the use of a Heidt's variable boost valve or by changes to the pressure relief spring.

In the end...Just do it!

Jeff

[CraigS]

I agree 100% w/ Jeff. I have bought two FFRs that were already on the road. The mkI had an un-powered power rack and it was terrible. Powered it up soon. Then my MkII had a proper manual rack as FFR supplied. I thought it would be interesting to see how a proper manual rack worked. Replaced it and added a pump about a month later.
BB767, you can reduce the amount of assist in yours by cutting off a little of the spring in the pressure relief valve in the pump. Search the other forum since it goes back further in time for a spec. If you happen to cut a little too much you can shim it back w/ a few small washers.

[edwardb]

Not much to add. I've too have had both. Won't ever not have PS. For the effort (which can be dialed in to be what you want) and the added caster. As Jeff said I'm one of the big supporters. :cool:

[DaleG]

Had both, would never go back to non-power steering. EVER!

Same here!

[mburger]

Bought my Mk1 with manual steering. Added power steering. Would never go back for all the reasons already posted. I also added the Heidts valve to dial the assist where it is most comfortable for me.

[FlyingCobra]

So here's another question I have on this. For those who've disliked the non power steering, what engines have you had in it? Part of why I'm going for the 302 (and aluminum heads) is to keep the weight down over the front end. My plan is no power steering because I want simple and I also want as few belt-driven accessories as possible. I'm thinking about an electric water pump even to achieve this goal.

While the weight differences aren't huge engine wise, they mostly impact the front wheels. Has anyone noticed a difference there?

[alv69]

I have the manual rack on mine electric power steering, works great and can be tailored to your liking

[FlyingCobra]

I have the manual rack on mine electric power steering, works great and can be tailored to your liking

Which electric power steering setup did you use? I've been thinking that's what I'd like to do if I go power...

[GoDadGo]

Someday in the future when it is cold and rainy outside I may just swap out the power rack for the manual one setting on the shelf. I am not sure how hard it would be to change out with the body and radiator on, can anyone comment on that?


NOTE: Remember that the caster angles are different for the manual vs power racks so a little allignment shop treatment will be needed.

[skidd]

Power. :)
Like has been said, added caster can really make a car feel nicer to drive around town and Highways. You'll want power once start adding good amounts of caster.
My power steering initially felt way too light also, until I did the cut-spring mod on the power steering pump. Now.. it's almost perfect. I think I'll take just a bit more off this fall though.
IMO.. PS vs noPS came down a balance of two main items... How you'll use the car, and simplicity of the install.
No Power is clean, simple, somewhat cheaper (unless you have donor parts already), and totally driveable. So, if you only drive your car off and on, here and there... I doubt no-power would be a big deal at all.
I however drive my car a heck of a lot. I commute to and from work in it. I don't track it, and I autoX a few times a year. PS was kinda a no brainer for me.
my 02c.

P.s. If you DON'T want your wife to drive the car, go noPS. "Sorry dear, it's just too hard to drive!" ;)

[alv69]

Which electric power steering setup did you use? I've been thinking that's what I'd like to do if I go power...

the kit the person in this thread sells.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?21719-New-Electric-Power-steering-kit-for-the-roadster-New-Bracket-design-Photos-are-back!&highlight=electric+power+steering

[JRD56]

I just finished my build (have about 1000 miles on the car) and went with Power Steering. Love it. I run a lot of caster and love the way it feels. I can take my hands off the wheel and the cars stays perfectly straight. I also run Hydra-boost braking which requires the power steering pump. The braking is excellent. I went with a donor set-up from a 2000 GT and the biggest cost was having new high pressure lines made. A lot us drive these cars around town a lot so power steering and power brakes make it more enjoyable. I have also done an autocross event and I got to think the power steering is a benefit to that. I would never consider manual steering. For what its worth.

[mike223]

Which electric power steering setup did you use? I've been thinking that's what I'd like to do if I go power...


Here's more food for that thought:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?28241-Mk-4-Pull-A-Part-EPAS

[RonJon24]

Just put my order in. Doing a donor so no reason not to bring it over from the PS from the mustang!

[FlyingCobra]

the kit the person in this thread sells.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?21719-New-Electric-Power-steering-kit-for-the-roadster-New-Bracket-design-Photos-are-back!&highlight=electric+power+steering


Here's more food for that thought:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?28241-Mk-4-Pull-A-Part-EPAS

Thanks! Very good info.

My main reason against power steering was wanting things under the hood to be as simple as possible. This would solve that, so I'm adding it to my projects for the build.

Similarly I am going to add heat and AC, but was thinking about a Masterflux compressor instead of the engine-driven. Really I want to have the alternator be the only accessory driven by the engine, I'm even planning an electric water pump.

[TexasAviator]

I have had both, get the power steering. The rack, pump, lines, and polished hardware can be done for 400 dollars. Details in my build thread.

[TexasAviator]

Thanks! Very good info.

My main reason against power steering was wanting things under the hood to be as simple as possible. This would solve that, so I'm adding it to my projects for the build.

Similarly I am going to add heat and AC, but was thinking about a Masterflux compressor instead of the engine-driven. Really I want to have the alternator be the only accessory driven by the engine, I'm even planning an electric water pump.

Engine Masters on Motortrend on Demand just did an episode with what accessories use for horsepower on a typical 350 Cheby. The water pump was 3-5 horsepower. The Alternator under load was 10 horsepower. The verdict was keep the pump and accessories for reliability and street use. You are only losing 15 horsepower that you will never feel on the street and only the best racers in the world would see a .1 difference on the strip.

[Dave Howard]

PS? Not a chance. Lite little car doesn't need it. The only speed I might find it useful is at a standstill. The car tracks great down the highway. Besides, 5 degrees of steering wheel turn is enough to put you in the rhubarb. A little girl can easily turn corners while driving on city streets. I can't comment on the autocross stuff. Never had the pleasure. Another reason for NOT having PS is I intended to keep the engine bay free of "stuff" cluttering it up. The build was huge success.

[FlyingCobra]

Engine Masters on Motortrend on Demand just did an episode with what accessories use for horsepower on a typical 350 Cheby. The water pump was 3-5 horsepower. The Alternator under load was 10 horsepower. The verdict was keep the pump and accessories for reliability and street use. You are only losing 15 horsepower that you will never feel on the street and only the best racers in the world would see a .1 difference on the strip.

My motivation isn’t horsepower, it’s responsiveness. I like a really snappy engine. Plus I’m just doing it for the fun of doing it this way, different than what I’ve done with any car previously.

[Murd]

I built using the FFR manual rack. Supposed to be 18:1 I believe. It’s just over 3.5 turns lock to lock.
I wanted manual to keep it as simple as possible as well as have a very raw, pure driving experience.
I have definitely found pros and cons to the manual rack and can see the appeal of power, here are my thoughts.
Manual is nice and light at speed, several people have commented on it while driving it too, they all thought it would be really heavy. In a very hard, loaded up corner the weight does build significantly, but this is only when really pushing hard in tight corners.
Very stable for me at Hwy speeds, 60-85 mph. No twitching or bad behaviour some say they have experienced, could be my setup or personal preference. I have 15” wheels/tires so may be less twitchy than the lower profile setups.
It does not self Centre very well coming off a corner, once the wheel is turned, you need to turn it back to centre. I imagine this is a function of not much caster, I set it up with 3 deg, I’m going to try a bit more when I have some time to mess with it.
The steering ratio is a bit slow for my taste. I would think the biggest advantage of power would be running a quicker ratio rack. Only noticed in tight corners and if counter steering to catch a slide. Say making a right turn at an intersection, have to turn the wheel well past 90 deg, which feels excessive compared to other small, light cars.
I can see why guys say you need power for autocross, for the quicker ratio and quick self centering off a corner, as well as catching a slide.
Somewhere down the road I may try a power rack, but for now, 99% of the time I never even think about it not having power, and never really wishing I had power.
If I ever have free time to go to auto cross or track then maybe I might want it.
Depends how you will use it I guess.

[edwardb]

...Very stable for me at Hwy speeds, 60-85 mph. No twitching or bad behaviour some say they have experienced, could be my setup or personal preference...

Works for you and that's great. My only comment is related to this statement. Those of us that promote PS because of the increased caster and improved high speed stability and centering are not saying the normal 3 degree positive caster manual setup is twitchy or bad. Properly setup is works fine. It's just that the PS is better. If you haven't tried it, then hard to explain. My Mk3 had manual steering with the usual FF 3.5 turn manual rack. I thought it drove fine and did lots of highway cruising. When I decided to try PS in the first Mk4, with the Breeze 3-turn rack, I was struck by how much better it was. Even with the quicker ratio, which is slower than what most of the autocross guys run. It's just more relaxed at higher speeds and at least for me is more fun to drive. Try it some day if you can. But keep enjoying what you have. :o

[Jeff Kleiner]

I built using the FFR manual rack. Supposed to be 18:1 I believe. It’s just over 3.5 turns lock to lock.
I wanted manual to keep it as simple as possible as well as have a very raw, pure driving experience.
I have definitely found pros and cons to the manual rack and can see the appeal of power, here are my thoughts.
Manual is nice and light at speed, several people have commented on it while driving it too, they all thought it would be really heavy. In a very hard, loaded up corner the weight does build significantly, but this is only when really pushing hard in tight corners.
Very stable for me at Hwy speeds, 60-85 mph. No twitching or bad behaviour some say they have experienced, could be my setup or personal preference. I have 15” wheels/tires so may be less twitchy than the lower profile setups.
It does not self Centre very well coming off a corner, once the wheel is turned, you need to turn it back to centre. I imagine this is a function of not much caster, I set it up with 3 deg, I’m going to try a bit more when I have some time to mess with it.
The steering ratio is a bit slow for my taste. I would think the biggest advantage of power would be running a quicker ratio rack. Only noticed in tight corners and if counter steering to catch a slide. Say making a right turn at an intersection, have to turn the wheel well past 90 deg, which feels excessive compared to other small, light cars.
I can see why guys say you need power for autocross, for the quicker ratio and quick self centering off a corner, as well as catching a slide.
Somewhere down the road I may try a power rack, but for now, 99% of the time I never even think about it not having power, and never really wishing I had power.
If I ever have free time to go to auto cross or track then maybe I might want it.
Depends how you will use it I guess.

And there you go...you yourself have hit on some of the main characteristics that power steering can help to make better.

Jeff

[Jazzman]

Power. I did it on mine and couldn't be happier with it. But don't believe me. I've only built one. But if EdwardB and Jeff Kleiner both agree that Power steering has significantly more advantages, in my mind, the decision is done. Very few of us on this forum know as much as these two guys and a few other very experienced builders. Go Power Steering, add a Heidts variable valve in the system, and you can have the best of both worlds. When you want less power assist, simply dial down the Heidts valve. When you need/want more help, dial it up. Easy Peasy!

[Avalanche325]

Power steering is a definite YES in my book. I do autocross and use a very quick rack. I also do some bigger cruises and drive my car a lot, so the car sees plenty of highway along with smaller roads. Just the extra caster is worth it.

Edit - I wrote camber, what an idiot. I meant extra caster. Obviously don't listen to me.

[Clover]

One thing you may want to consider is what size and type of tire you want to run. Most of us are accustomed to manual steering with old skinny tires that did not have a ton of grip when compared to a 11 inch sticky modern high performance tires. Those old cars also had big giant steering wheels to help turn. While our kits are light weight, a lot of us like to run wide sticky rubber which have a considerable amount of grip. The added grip makes things more difficult when you are moving slow then what some of us remember from cars with manual steering when we were young.

While this answer will depend on what type of experience you are looking for, I am in the power steering camp. I will autocross and track my build and want the added caster, so it makes perfect sense for me. I will add a valve that allows me to adjust the amount of assist in order to dial in exactly what I like. Steering is such a big part of the experience for me that being able to dial that in to my style is a big plus in my book.

[David Hodgkins]

You guys are all wimps and don't know what a REAL cobra experience is all about. :p

But seriously, I went manual for simplicity. I mostly agree with murd that it's perfectly driveable and it does load up during tight turns. Running more caster definitely eliminates lack of "finding center". To wit, my brother's near identical motor setup with power steering doesn't self center as fast as my manual at low speed.

So which one would I rather have?

I'm perfectly happy with my power NOTHING, 15" pin drive pushrod mid-sixties raw road car with better suspension, balance and brakes.

But that's me, and that's the experience I wanted with that car.

I wouldn't, and didn't, build my brother's WITHOUT power steering. Basically any car not like my first build I'd throw it on.

Can you guess which one has power steering?

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46320&d=1444020982

It will DEFINITELY be part of my future FFR GTM2020 - or whatever they call it ;) - build.

:)

[DadofThree]

I read this thread during lunch, and thought about it while driving with my PS to the autoparts store after work. I did the Power steering spring mod on mine. (And I'm glad I did)

I realized that it has to do with how you're going to use the car. I use mine as often as I can, and for any little run that think of to drive it. So I'm glad to have it. If you're going to use it occasionally to get the "complete" Cobra experience, the you may want to go with MS.

If you drive it as often as I am planning to do, you'll want the Power Steering. :) HTH, Dave

[mike223]

Those old cars also had big giant steering wheels to help turn.



All your points were good, but this point made me think of more food for thought (had to look back through the thread twice - "somebody said something about big steering wheels", - lol).

I specifically ordered a blank dash for the purpose of doing a competition dash layout.

I ended up using a heavier piece of aluminum, but made the mistake of laying out the competition dash (the first time, lol) looking through the (kinda big) FFR repro walnut steering wheel.

When I decided that steering wheel was a bit large for what I wanted to do with the car (close to door edges, for autocross, etc) - I found that I needed to move the gauges around the steering wheel closer together - couldn't see what I wanted to be able to glance down and see with a smaller "Momo" type wheel.


Just something else to think about for current builders (or people who can't seem to quit chasing "perfect", lol)...

[Avalanche325]

When I decided that steering wheel was a bit large for what I wanted to do with the car (close to door edges, for autocross, etc) - I found that I needed to move the gauges around the steering wheel closer together - couldn't see what I wanted to be able to glance down and see with a smaller "Momo" type wheel..

During autocross you will hardly ever have a chance to look at your gauges. The only time I ever get a chance is when on a road course layout. Never on a "regular" autocross course. I have an oil pressure idiot light installed just because of that. It is easy to add the extra sensor on an SBF.

If you have a quick rack and power steering, you won't have to preposition your hands very often. For those of you that like the wooden steering wheel....batting gloves are perfect. Grippy, light weight, and no loss of feel.

[OnlyAndy]

Interesting subject. I have a 33' on order ( comp date is Aug 18,,, less than a week ) and I just wanted a pretty basic old hot rod, no power steer etc. BUT then,,, when I ordered kit they have this Wonderful sale going on. Was not hard for me to get over $8k for the 50% off so I went a bit nuts. Ordered Power steer,,, and several other items that I MAY or may Not not use but how could I pass up at 50% off? And just for the record, at Huntington Beach event I was advised by many to GET the power steering. Let the good times roll.

[mike223]

During autocross you will hardly ever have a chance to look at your gauges.

I have an oil pressure idiot light installed just because of that.



Similar here (agreed) - I chose a Speedhut tach with shift lights (works great) - https://www.speedhut.com/gauge/GR4-TACH-02/1/Tachometer-8K-RPM-Shift-light


"(works great)" - until you (completely) block your (peripheral vision) view of the shift lights in the tach with your smaller steering wheel / real world hand position(s)....

lol


Just trying to help.

[BadAsp427]

Wow, everyone, thanks for the great information. I can tell from all theses posts that I'm going to have a blast building my MK4 and I have a ton of help at my finger tips to do it. Based on everything I've found here, this is what I'm planning to do for my build. I'm purchasing the kit with the FF Manual steering. I'm leaning heavily toward adding the Saturn Vue Elec steering to give me the variable options that gives at the twist of a knob. I really like the very clean install inside the dash and will attempt that plan assuming it will fit inside my dash. We are going to find out soon as I'm picking up my kit this weekend. I should be able to start my actual build thread in the very near future. And there is going to be an exciting (at least to me) surprise reveal when I do...

[DavidW]

I read the forum about power steering and decided to go without during my build. My first drive backing out of the driveway then turning out of my neighborhood going very slow and the steering wheel took a little more effort than I anticipated. I realized I wanted power steering immediately after that. I also have the electric power steering from the Saturn View/Chevy Equinox and it works great. There are a couple things about it that takes some getting used to but it does work.

[Murd]

And there you go...you yourself have hit on some of the main characteristics that power steering can help to make better.

Jeff

Jeff,
Wasn’t supposed to be a vote for manual, just a summary of my experience with a manual, and how I can definitely see the pros of power. I can see where it’s better, but I’m not desperate to switch to it yet, and on a twisty back road I’m not sure the manual might not have a better feel. I haven’t driven power so can’t comment, but there seem to be a lot of “gotta have power!” Posts from some that haven’t driven manual either. I’m sure you have driven both. For sure some oems use manual for a better feel, and many complain about lack of feel from power, especially electric power, which makes me really surprised at all the posts about using EPS.

I’m also really happy with my 15” cooper cobra tires, but many posts would lead you to believe that I’m taking my life in my hands driving without R compound 18s.

Just sharing my experience and feedback.

[ptstew]

Bought my Mk1 with manual steering. Added power steering. Would never go back for all the reasons already posted. I also added the Heidts valve to dial the assist where it is most comfortable for me.

Mark, adding P/S is probably my next project. I now have steering shaft that came with kit and a Flaming River 15:1 rack. Did you go with a stock Mustang P/S rack and pump? I assume the pump mounts on driver side where the FFR alternate drive pulley is located. Any hidden issues I need to be aware of?
Phil

[mburger]

I made my life easy and sent Mark at Breeze an email telling him I had a Mk1 and wanted PS. He did the rest! I used a remanufactured 3 turn LTL rack from Breeze (shipped direct from the factory). Mark supplied all the hoses, fittings, adapters and everything I needed except the pump, which I bought at NAPA. Stock Ford pump. Bought the pump mounting bracket on-line as well. I used the Heidts valve for adjustablility or if you feel there is too much assist without the valve, you can do the cut spring mod. I preferred the adjustability. Others may chime in with pro electric PS opinions, and they apparently work, but I didn't go that route because I'm too unfamiliar with the technology to be comfortable with it. You'll have less hoses in the engine bay without the Heidts valve. Also, I gathered all the parts needed and dropped the car off at a local recommended shop to have the work done then off for alignment. (You will notice immediately the car drives much better with the added castor) After the PS, my alignment was set to 8 degrees castor, 1/16" total toe in and -0.5 camber. ~22lbs-24lbs in all four tires and it drives great.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108014&d=1559146390

[ptstew]

Thanks, Mark. Sounds like a good plan although I want to do the install myself. Thanks for the picture. Looks great!

[Blue Viking]

I made my life easy and sent Mark at Breeze an email telling him I had a Mk1 and wanted PS. He did the rest! I used a remanufactured 3 turn LTL rack from Breeze (shipped direct from the factory). Mark supplied all the hoses, fittings, adapters and everything I needed except the pump, which I bought at NAPA. Stock Ford pump. Bought the pump mounting bracket on-line as well. I used the Heidts valve for adjustablility or if you feel there is too much assist without the valve, you can do the cut spring mod. I preferred the adjustability. Others may chime in with pro electric PS opinions, and they apparently work, but I didn't go that route because I'm too unfamiliar with the technology to be comfortable with it. You'll have less hoses in the engine bay without the Heidts valve. Also, I gathered all the parts needed and dropped the car off at a local recommended shop to have the work done then off for alignment. (You will notice immediately the car drives much better with the added castor) After the PS, my alignment was set to 8 degrees castor, 1/16" total toe in and -0.5 camber. ~22lbs-24lbs in all four tires and it drives great.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108014&d=1559146390


Thanks for the tip about the valve, didn't know that existed. So one more thingI need to buy.....

[CraigS]

Save your money on the valve. it's not just the valve that costs $, it's all the extra fittings you will need. The valve goes into the middle of two lines so there are 4 pipe thread to dash6 adapters, and 4 dash6 hose ends you need to buy. The cut spring is easy to do even if a little messy. If you happen to cut too much, just get several small washers to shim the spring.

[Blue Viking]

Save your money on the valve. it's not just the valve that costs $, it's all the extra fittings you will need. The valve goes into the middle of two lines so there are 4 pipe thread to dash6 adapters, and 4 dash6 hose ends you need to buy. The cut spring is easy to do even if a little messy. If you happen to cut too much, just get several small washers to shim the spring.


I hear you, but I am also going to install hydroboost PS, so I'd rather not mess with the whole system pressure..don't know how that would affect the brakes.