Miller Time MK4

[miller7448]

Guess I found a name for the build thread. (I can change that later right?!).

First 2 questions already:

1) Did not receive a spacing tool and it's not on the inventory list. Is this a real thing? Guess I'll just make one.

2) Engine bay F panels don't line up with the frame. Not sweating the small stuff just wondering if I should assume where they are screwed is the best location or should I move the DS back to match the frame more.

Thanks

[GoDadGo]

Guess I found a name for the build thread. (I can change that later right?!).

First 2 questions already:

1) Did not receive a spacing tool and it's not on the inventory list. Is this a real thing? Guess I'll just make one.

2) Engine bay F panels don't line up with the frame. Not sweating the small stuff just wondering if I should assume where they are screwed is the best location or should I move the DS back to match the frame more.

Thanks

Mr. Miller,

No, don't assume that the screws place the panels in the perfect, 100% spot on location.
Remove one panel and attempt to lay them up against the frame to see exactly where it fits best.
You can see how they should fit in my walk around update video that I did a long, long time ago.

https://youtu.be/_wnHDNgnNqs

Just slow down or stop the video and you can get a good look at each panel and how they come together.

Good Luck & Have A Great Build!

Steve

PS: Just ignore the driveline!

[GFX2043mtu]

You should have the spacing tool in one of the boxes. If not call FFR for one they make rivet placement much easier and faster.

[miller7448]

Just ordered this:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005VR2D7K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Aircraft Tool Supply Rivet Fan Spacer (Mini)

I think the adjustable spacing might work better.

[edwardb]

1. Agree the location of the aluminum panels for shipping may/may not be perfect and should be checked as you go. But if they are off, typically not much. Those guys have done just a few of these. :p But for those F panel pieces, I'd be more concerned about where they fit around the front suspension mounting points than that specific location by the radiator cross tube. That piece is known to be sometimes mounted at an angle. Hard to see in your pics, but looks like the gaps down by the suspension look pretty similar. But look there, not at what's in your pictures.

2. The rivet spacer tool looks like a ruler. 17 inches long x 1-1/2 inches wide with a row of 2-inch spaced holes along one edge and 3-inch spaced holes along the other edge. It should be in the same box as all the other loose aluminum pieces. It would be easy to miss. Handy to have if you didn't receive it.

[miller7448]

1. Agree the location of the aluminum panels for shipping may/may not be perfect and should be checked as you go. But if they are off, typically not much. Those guys have done just a few of these. :p But for those F panel pieces, I'd be more concerned about where they fit around the front suspension mounting points than that specific location by the radiator cross tube. That piece is known to be sometimes mounted at an angle. Hard to see in your pics, but looks like the gaps down by the suspension look pretty similar. But look there, not at what's in your pictures.

Thanks Ed, just wondering what I should optimize. Makes perfect sense, suspension mounting points it is.

2. The rivet spacer tool looks like a ruler. 17 inches long x 1-1/2 inches wide with a row of 2-inch spaced holes along one edge and 3-inch spaced holes along the other edge. It should be in the same box as all the other loose aluminum pieces. It would be easy to miss. Handy to have if you didn't receive it.

Will check that box again.

[miller7448]

The good - Got the body off and onto the buck

9057190573

The bad - One of the two lower control arms has a bad fitting hole. Don't see anyway it could have been damaged in shipment. I think it was bad from the manufactuer

90574

[Fixit]

Looks like a grease zerk got snapped off in transit... but they're usually not pre-installed... wierd.

[miller7448]

Looks like a grease zerk got snapped off in transit... but they're usually not pre-installed... wierd.

zerk was not installed. Was loose in packaging as instructions indicate. Part looks like it was either dropped really hard or mis-formed in factory.

[Higgybulin]

I'm sure FF will make it right, just have to contact them.
Higgy

[miller7448]

Quick question about the upper control arms. Assembled the first one exactly per both the photo and diagram shown in the manual. Attempting the other side and I don't understand how I can reverse the parts to put the solid side of the balljoint plate in the front. Is there a left and right balljoint mount. Mine are identical hence no way to reverse. IE the ball joint would point in when the control arm is horizontal not out as shown in the photos.


Thanks

[edwardb]

Quick question about the upper control arms. Assembled the first one exactly per both the photo and diagram shown in the manual. Attempting the other side and I don't understand how I can reverse the parts to put the solid side of the balljoint plate in the front. Is there a left and right balljoint mount. Mine are identical hence no way to reverse. IE the ball joint would point in when the control arm is horizontal not out as shown in the photos.

Thanks

UCA's will have the solid connection in the front on one side and the back on the other side. No problem and totally normal. In both cases, the ball joint must be pointed out at the bottom. Like this:

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Front%20Suspension/IMG_3382_zpsbqzdcset.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/edwardb123/media/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Front%20Suspension/IMG_3382_zpsbqzdcset.jpg.html)

[miller7448]

Thanks Ed, just seems like this will make alignment difficult since the geometry is so different. Will proceed.

[edwardb]

Thanks Ed, just seems like this will make alignment difficult since the geometry is so different. Will proceed.

Maybe seems that way, but it's not. Works out just fine. Whole bunch of 'em built this way and the alignment adjusts dead on. You're not the first to question it though.

[miller7448]

I'm looking at going with an EFI 427 with a TKO-600 6 speed. I understand this might require cutting a cross member. Could not find anything searching here. Anyone familiar with this combination and required modification or other thoughts on this choice. Thanks.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I'm looking at going with an EFI 427 with a TKO-600 6 speed. I understand this might require cutting a cross member. Could not find anything searching here. Anyone familiar with this combination and required modification or other thoughts on this choice. Thanks.

TKO 600 is a 5 speed. T56 is 6 speed. Which is it? What rear end are you using? Be aware that the T56 is not recommended with a live axle due to driveshaft length.

Jeff

[edwardb]

I'm looking at going with an EFI 427 with a TKO-600 6 speed. I understand this might require cutting a cross member. Could not find anything searching here. Anyone familiar with this combination and required modification or other thoughts on this choice. Thanks.

TKO's only come in 5-speed. I suspect you're asking about the 6-speed T-56? It's bigger, longer, and heavier than the TKO's. Yes, it will fit in the Roadster and a number have been done. But with several caveats: Generally the recommendation is only with IRS. The longer T-56 makes an already short driveshaft even shorter, and the solid axle is going to move too much. The fixed diff in an IRS setup can handle the shorter driveshaft. Having said that, guys have put a T-56 in a solid axle with a mod motor or a Coyote, because they put the bell housing/trans an inch or more forward compared to a SBF, so that's a more workable setup. I know that doesn't apply in your situation, but just giving a complete answer. Of course anything's possible if you're going to start cutting and welding, e.g. moving the motor mounts forward. But that gets into other issues, like headers, side pipe location, etc.

You don't say what rear suspension you have, and couldn't find it in your other posts. I'd recommend adding a sig line to your profile with your kit specifications. Lots of examples with other forum members.

Also, yes a change is required to the transmission A-frame. This thread describes and has some pics: https://www.ffcars.com/forums/45-ford-modular-engine-roadster-builds/471794-t56-magnum-fit-mk4.html

[miller7448]

Yes T56 MAG 2.66/63. Yes running IRS. I would love to add sign line and photo but don't know if I have reached enough posts but can't for the life of me find a place to edit it. And thanks for the link to the other forum!

It's always in the last place you look - under settings, found it.

[miller7448]

Couple questions.

1) I'm trying to avoid asking questions already answered here. When I query I just get a long list of threads, including build threads with no clue where the actual post containing relevant information exists within each thread. Is there a better way?

2) The hub studs to replace the originals do not have the same flat area to avoid interfering with the rubber piece between the two sections of the hub. Do people normally grind a flat for clearance?

3) Can't find a through hole lug nut listed on the inventory. Did I miss it, is one provided or do I just buy one?

Thanks

[miller7448]

Back at it after two week bike trip through Canada leading up to Harley 115th celebrations in Milwaukee. Anyone else have this happen while setting the studs? Threads ripped out of the lug nut. Used lubrication, but nut failed on the fourth one. Guess it is better than stripping the bolt.

92547

[edwardb]

Back at it after two week bike trip through Canada leading up to Harley 115th celebrations in Milwaukee. Anyone else have this happen while setting the studs? Threads ripped out of the lug nut. Used lubrication, but nut failed on the fourth one. Guess it is better than stripping the bolt.

92547

I've set the kit provided 1/2 - 20 studs used with the 2015+ IRS setup a couple times. I use an impact driver that I know puts out well over 100 ft-lbs and it's just able to pull them in. Since lug nuts are typically torqued at around 85 ft-lbs, likely you were well over that amount. I always use a hardened nut and washer instead of the lug nut. Keeps them from getting banged up plus the chance of overstressing which you clearly did.

[miller7448]

On to the next challenge. The back set of sleeves for the center section are too small. Fairly certain I read something about a different set of sleeves. Can't find anything in the manual or searching the forum. I do find a bag marked 15345 that I can't find anywhere on the inventory pages. It contains what appear to be the right sized sleeves and bolts but also contains nuts and cotter pins.

[miller7448]

Only using a 16" breaker bar and I'm a software guy so unlikely over 100ft-lbs :). Bought some "normal" looking lug nuts and set the rest of the studs without problems.

[miller7448]

Is there any type of listing or searchable directory of "mods". Shame on me for not collecting them as I read the many valuable posts in the build threads but now that it's time to actually implement some of them my memory fails me.

[Yama-Bro]

There was a post not to long ago of common/must do mods. Here's a link...

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?27932-Must-Have-Kit-Mods&highlight=mods

Don't click it unless you want to spend money. :D

[miller7448]

Thanks Yama-Bro for the links to the mods. Could not find what I was looking for the eBrake cables so did something on my own. I got past the initial dislike of running the cables under the 4" cross member, but very unhappy with the inability to make up for the inherent misalignment caused by the cable bracket being vertically positioned which causes the cable paths to be different lengths. The Clevis picture is the minimum misalignment possible in my case.

94783

I live in the Kettle Moraine, parking on a hill is common. Having only one side engage is not acceptable.
Created a bracket that places the cable ends in alignment and also puts the cables in the correct geometry to avoid the normal bends before going under the 4” tube. I will need to make a linkage since the cables are now too short but this is simple.

94784
94785


Two questions: 1) Is this bracket likely to be in the way as the build progresses. 2) If it's OK where it is, thoughts on bolting vrs welding.
Thanks

[miller7448]

Anyone know how to change the name of a build thread? I think mine is offending people :)

[BadAsp427]

On the list of build threads, where it is showing all of our threads, just double click just to the right of the word "Beater" and it will then allow you to change it. See below, where I did it for mine...
94887

[miller7448]

Perfect Thanks!

[miller7448]

Thanks Yama-Bro for the links to the mods. Could not find what I was looking for the eBrake cables so did something on my own. I got past the initial dislike of running the cables under the 4" cross member, but very unhappy with the inability to make up for the inherent misalignment caused by the cable bracket being vertically positioned which causes the cable paths to be different lengths. The Clevis picture is the minimum misalignment possible in my case.

94783

I live in the Kettle Moraine, parking on a hill is common. Having only one side engage is not acceptable.
Created a bracket that places the cable ends in alignment and also puts the cables in the correct geometry to avoid the normal bends before going under the 4” tube. I will need to make a linkage since the cables are now too short but this is simple.

94784
94785


Two questions: 1) Is this bracket likely to be in the way as the build progresses. 2) If it's OK where it is, thoughts on bolting vrs welding.
Thanks

Before I make the final bracket with gussets and have it powder coated could anyone tell me if the location will cause build problems later on? Guess I can just leave it clamped until later.

Thanks

[miller7448]

Anyone else waiting for Koni shocks? I ordered my kit on 5/24 almost 5 months ago and still waiting for 15' IRS KONI DOUBLE ADJUSTABLE SHOCK SET. Is it time to look at the Breeze replacements?

[miller7448]

Standard build here. Decided to do a simple brushed swirl on the visible aluminum panels. Coated with Sharkhide thanks to the info from the forum. Obtained front and rear QA1 double adjustables from Breeze. As many have said before Mark is great to work with.

979809798197982

I wonder what the average number of times to remove the pedal box is. Think I'm at four.

[Straversi]

I wonder what the average number of times to remove the pedal box is. Think I'm at four.
Ha, you’re about half way there.
-Steve

[miller7448]

Kind of exciting. Forte supplied 427 has completed dyno run. 501 Peak hp 514 ft/lbs

98716

DD is a Jeep SRT 475hp 470 Ft/lbs 5,104 curb weight all wheel drive. Trying to picture 500hp in 2000 lbs with rear wheel drive. Should be fun! Will need order rear tires by the dozen.

[GoDadGo]

Three Words:

Buy Drag Radials!

[Derald Rice]

Keep the thread title. AND, then do some research for a Miller High Life poster that featured a Cobra (and a babe). I have looked, but can't find it, seems as though it was huge banner that would be cool on your garage wall. Probably from the mid 80's to the early 90's.

Derald

[miller7448]

Something like this?

98720

[Derald Rice]

That's one of them, but I also remember a banner similar to the BF Goodrich banner. It might have been for a giveaway car.

[miller7448]

9962699627

Mike Forte arranged for a good Christmas. Picked up 3 days before.

[David Hodgkins]

That's a puuuuuurty motor! Specs?

:)

EDIT: Oops just saw your post from earlier. She's a beast!! Easy on the throttle!

[Mark Eaton]

Wow, beautiful engine! But I'm not sure you have enough HP , LOL!

[RR20AC]

I guess we have a couple of things in common. SRT does really haul. And forte’s 427 is a very good motor. Have fun with the build. It goes by fast if you stay with it.

[miller7448]

100074

Don't know the HP equivalent, but quite a ride last week.

[miller7448]

Just received the hydraulic master and hose for my Forte supplied clutch. No instructions but it looks like I will need to optimize the hose run between the master and slave. Anyone have pictures of how they did it. Thanks.

[Mark Eaton]

Miller7448,

I don't know how much mechanical knowledge you have but if you are a newbie like me this thread I started might help.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?28645-Clutch-fork-pivot-stud-advice-please

[miller7448]

Decided to move the batteries to the rear for better weight distribution. Started with cardboard proof of concept. Still need to add second end cap but pictures are easier without it. Based on desired placement it would interfere with removal of differential in the future so clearance holes were added to allow the bolts to be removed if needed. Will likely cover the holes from the inside with small removable cover plates. Will need to incorporate lifting straps to allow pulling batteries out but they are easy to insert. Made the box about 1/2 inch wider than the batteries to allow them to be tilted slightly as they are dropped into place. Will insert some type of spacers to snug the batteries and some form of tie downs. 0.063 5052 material.




101660101661101662101663101664

[miller7448]

Finally at engine install stage. Have a few challenges based on my selections. Unless I have something wrong with the engine as mounted:

1) Will need a driveshaft that is only 6" long TOTAL. The supplied drive shaft is about 8.5 inches long and the shaft is only about 2 inches of that length. (T-56 MAG 6 speed is the cause)

2) Will need to shorten one of the copper pipes coming out of the heater/defroster. I guess the firewall forward was not the best idea but I really like the extra room for wiring, ductwork, and glovebox.


Does anyone have the dimension from outer edge of the passenger footbox and the center line of the headers? Do the headers appear to be in the correct location front to back?

Thanks.

104543104544104545104546104547

[miller7448]

May not be the shortest driveshaft, but it's the shortest I could find someone to make. Will still need to move the engine forward 1.25" but existing mounts should work. Will just need to add new set of holes/slots. Other than needing custom exhaust headers anything I should be concerned about?

107009

[q4stix]

An alternative to doing that is replacing the CV style pinion flange on the rear differential with one from the F150 like I'm having to do.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=80023&d=1517253946

[miller7448]

OMG, that looks perfect! 1) Is there a specific year F150 I should look for. 2) Never swapped/replaced one before. I'm sure it might be obvious once I remove the FFR adapter plate, but how are they attached? 3) Does the hole pattern fit the standard FFR supplied driveshaft?

Thanks, this is a great help.

[q4stix]

1) The part number should be FL3Z-4851-A.
2) It's not the easiest of swaps because you have to break loose the pinned pinion nut and then re-torque a new one based on rotational force of the pinion prior to the swap, not the torque of the nut itself. The value is in the low inch-pounds. A drivetrain shop could easily do it though.
3) The bolt pattern is 4.25" if I remember correctly so you'd need to verify with the driveshaft included. I'm going a different route than the supplied one so I haven't checked that pattern.

As a disclaimer,
I haven't run my car yet to verify everything but I checked the dimensions and that's the pinion flange Ford uses on its new trucks with the Super 8.8 rear like the Mustangs.

[miller7448]

112026

Finally got all the right parts to allow the T56 to fit. Shortest possible driveshaft, different pinon flange, larger flange yoke, and replacement pinon nut.

[q4stix]

I think you have the record now! I don't count my setup as an actual driveshaft since it's more of a flex coupler without u-joints.
Are you having to use the shortest driveshaft still? Are you officially installing the new pinion flange too?

[miller7448]

I think you have the record now! I don't count my setup as an actual driveshaft since it's more of a flex coupler without u-joints.
Are you having to use the shortest driveshaft still? Are you officially installing the new pinion flange too?

So far what has been required to use the T56 from my experience:

Replace Pinon Flange
Replace center section of driveshaft with shorter length (now that everything is in place, the driveshaft only needs to be 3\4" shorter than original)
Replace yoke flange with correct hole locations (4.5" diameter pattern) for New Pinon flange.
Remove parking brake brackets, I plan to weld new supports off the main side tube.
Remove material from angle brace on side of tunnel near parking brake mounts, add (weld) replacement bracing to support remaining portion of tube brace.
Remove section of transmission support A-frame since T56 is lower just forward of the mounting holes.

Unrelated, I did need to remove a section of a down brace in the engine compartment where it interfered with correct location of the 427.

Will do complete write up with part numbers and pics if anyone is interested.

[miller7448]

First start!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qCprEBdZHHMS3QlbHyZg5CE8cbaSux9y/view?usp=sharing

[miller7448]

Now that the side pipes are on it's a real pain to put the car on the 2 post. To avoid the lifting bars hitting the side pipes I need to use extensions on the lifting pads. This makes it impossible to slide them under the rails. Just ordered an extra low profile floor jack that starts at under 3". Will need to position the car then lift with floor jack and rotate lifting arms under the car. Since the lifting arms are at their lowest position and the lift is rated for 10,000 lbs I'm thinking I'm ok lowering the car unto the lifting arms one side at a time. Alternative is to lift with floor jack and place something under the wheels to hold the first side in lifted position then lift the second side. Just wondering how others handle this. Thanks

[Straversi]

Congratulations on the first start! Always love seeing that. I can’t speak for working on a lift but if you can take the side pipes off, it makes working on the car much easier at this point. Car is looking great.
-Steve

[miller7448]

Yeah 8 bolts and disconnect the O2 sensor, or deal with floor jack - Horse a piece I guess.

[miller7448]

First Body fitting118395118396

Based on other posts it appears I have the same areas needing attention. Most significant - trimming the back of the trunk and sides to allow the body to move forward. Trimming the body at the dashboard. Still not happy with the fit but close enough to allow test fit of doors, hood, and trunk. Most significant problem is center line of the engine/air cleaner. Although the engine mounts are bottomed out on both sides the air cleaner cover is 3/4 inch off center. Going to need to do some brainstorming.

[Railroad]

I will bet you can jack the front, then the rear or opposite ends. Probably easier than side to side.
I would do the front with the parking brake on, then the rear.
Congrats on first start.

[miller7448]

126261

Endless sanding has kept me sane during the social distancing. Thinking about making a temporary spray booth in the garage. How hard can it be to spray some paint :)

[miller7448]

Temporary Spray Booth

126534126535

[BadAsp427]

what about all the over spray that goes up and over the top? Or do you have a top planned?

[Maui coupe]

I sprayed all my feather fill and epoxy primer with no booth in the garage, just a wet tarp on the floor, very little overspray since they're both fairly thick. Go for it!

[miller7448]

Was planning to ask that question here. Just to be safe I will take a lighter weight plastic and tape to to the ceiling to reduce overspray. SAS hood, gloves, and feather fill arrive next week!

[miller7448]

Well I guess I'm graduated. Got insurance through Grundy $344 per year, was quoted over $800 from Hagerty. Only thing remaining is a full alignment but local shops are all swamped so will have to wait a couple weeks. Steering seems a bit "twitchy". Might just be the alignment but I ordered a Heidts valve just to give me the adjustment option.

Embarrassing question - went into this with little or no research but with the Forte 427 and 6 speed I'm seeing almost exactly 10mph per gear at 2K RPM. This drives well, just curious if it seems correct? Thanks

135177 (Picture before vents, side mirrors, visors, etc installed)

135178

[Jay-rod427]

Getting a good quality 4 wheel alignment will improve the steering greatly. I'm guessing toe is out quite a bit and gives the twitchy sensation since all 4 tires are fighting against each other.

[ydousurf]

Congrats on graduation milestone! Nicely done and I love the clean look, not to forget that 427 heartbeat. And I'm a fan of green too! Enjoy those smiles and honks. And may safe roads always find you...

Dj

[Straversi]

Congratulations. Hope you are able to get in some miles before the weather turns on you.
-Steve

[miller7448]

Got the alignment done and she drives smooth now. Went for 120 mile ride and nothing fell off! Purrs like a kitten at 2100rpm. (anything else and well, I guess some form of ear protection might be in order)

[TMartinLVNV]

Got the alignment done and she drives smooth now. Went for 120 mile ride and nothing fell off! Purrs like a kitten at 2100rpm. (anything else and well, I guess some form of ear protection might be in order)

It feels great to be driving down the road in a creation you built with your hands. Enjoy your beautiful car.

Yes, ear protection is a must. I'll drive around city streets with no ear pro, but I put plugs in before I get on the highway.