ol' 5369 has been down since HB :( - On the road again!

[David Hodgkins]

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=85163&d=1525105086

Yep, she died on the way home from HB and has been down ever since.

She died previously on several occasions, getting less intermittant each time. After losing power previously, the fuel pump would still have power but there would be no spark. After a period of time (5-10 minutes) it would start again like nothing happened. This last time she never recovered.

I thought maybe it was the ECU so I sent it out to a forum friend who gave it a once over. Nothing too unusual was found but he did replace a few wear-items on the board. He didn't want to test it on his own car b/c Mass-Flo uses a plug-in sub-board (presumably a flash memory tune deelio) so I called Mass-Flo to see if I could ship the ECU to them and found out that THEY DON'T SUPPORT THEIR SYSTEM ANYMORE :mad: They said I could upgrade to their current pro-m EFI for $2400 that uses am old v10 ECU from Ford. NO THANKS!! :mad: :mad:

Digging deeper into the issue I noticed I don't hear the fuel pump kick on anymore. I've since discovered that the whole engine harness is no longer getting power. I first checked the 5-amp cross-over from the master kill switch (keep-alive power for the ECU) but that is fine so now I believe the power lead that comes from the remote solenoid is the culprit.

So, what is the lifespan for a remote solenoid, and do you think this should be my next task to replace it? Should I still be able to crank the starter if the solenoid is bad?

:)

[GoDadGo]

Sorry For Your Trouble Super Dave!

Electrical Gremlins Stink!

[David Hodgkins]

Sorry For Your Trouble Super Dave!

Electrical Gremlins Stink!

Thank you sir, and yes. Yes they do.

:)

[2yrproject]

I had a similar issue with my Mass Flo. My fuel pump stopped cycling with the ignition on. Spoke with Mass Flo and he walked me through some additional diagnostics. Had me take the chip out, turn the key on, check all the connections. The fuel pump cycled with the key turned on and chip out of the computer. Mass Flo believed that the chip was the problem (no guarantee but a good bet). Basically three probable failures:

1. Computer failure- not likely, but possible
2. Computer losing communication with the chip- most likely
3. Bad circuit board on the fuse box.

To test and correct the problem, he said to disconnect the battery, and remove the computer. On the back side of the computer, a chip is mounted underneath some vinyl tape. Remove the tape and pull the chip off. Use a brillo pad to scuff the connections on the chip. Then clean with denatured alcohol. Reconnect the chip and see if it the fuel pump behaves normally.

I took a gamble on replacing the chip. Paid $350 to have a new one tuned, which fixed the problem.

[Ray]

Go carb’ed and ditch the EFI?

Ray

[cv2065]

Go carb’ed and ditch the EFI?

Ray

Plus One!

[Itchief]

Good luck if I had to replace the mass-flo I would consider one of the throttle body efi kits with a billet distributor

Rick

[TexasAviator]

I ditched the mass flo when I built my car. I had thousands of dollars of mods to make 300 hp on the stock 5.0 block. With my first engine build, I sold all those parts to foxbody mustang guys and had enough money to buy a fitech, a vic jr intake manifold, and a new distributor. I can now tune it with my own skills and made 475 hp compared to the 430hp from mass flow on my 347 build.

[CraigS]

I would be thinking about ditching the MassFlo system since it is no longer supported. Call Levy or Forte and ask them advise. I think there are aftermarket systems that would run your injectors so you wouldn't need to buy a new manifold etc. This seems to offer some good info;
http://www.efisupply.com/efibuyersguide.pdf

[Just puttering]

people....... What about the electrical problem?

Is the remote solenoid the power relay from a factory wireing harness? Do you have a wireing schematic? Can you jump the wire and take the solenoid out of the picture as a test?

[David Hodgkins]

people....... What about the electrical problem?

Is the remote solenoid the power relay from a factory wireing harness? Do you have a wireing schematic? Can you jump the wire and take the solenoid out of the picture as a test?

Thank you. I purchased a new solinoid and will see if that’s the issue today.

:)

[weendoggy]

Have you tried isolating the issue? Don't need the key on to test the circuit.

Use 12v direct from the battery source to the pump side wire (87). If it runs, pump circuit good. Next check the relay battery wire (30), good? If so, you have power to the relay. Hard to test the ignition side (86) of the relay on a Ford (Mass Flos) system because it gets the signal through the ECU. But, it should work for about 5sec when key on. If you have a test light to check the ignition side of relay and key on and you get light, that's good? Then check the ground side (85).

If the ignition key on won't fire the pump but you've done all the tests, put a 12v wire direct to the 86 terminal (key on) and see if the pump runs. If so, the relay is good and problem is between ECU and relay. All you need to do is touch the terminal to see if pump will activate.

Next, ditch the MF and get a Holley EFI. ;)

One more thing: the Ford pump circuit runs THROUGH the inertia switch so if that's not working, by-pass it and try.

[David Hodgkins]

thanks for the suggestions. I'll try my best to perform the rite tests, but remember, this is a mass-flo system in conjunction with a I-Squared wiring harness.

I think long term both need to go. But I'm still going to try and get this setup working again...

I tried changing out the remote solenoid this weekend to no effect. I did trace the power leads and there is power to this module, produced by dunne-rite performance:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89303&d=1532359471

The problem is non of the components on this board light up so it's next on the list to be replaced. They make a next-gen of the unit but the pin setup is different. Hopefully they still have a gen-1 or wiring translation table so I can change out the plug I have to match the newer configuration...

I'll post updates again ASAP.

:)

[Mark Reynolds]

just for grins, unplug the throttle position sensor and try starting it.

[Mark Reynolds]

just for grins, unplug the throttle position sensor and try starting it.

Also try replacing distributor with a known working unit. TFI modules are notorious for heat induced failure. Solution is remote TFI module. http://www.mccullyracingmotors.com/

Also PIP inside distributor are more rare but have failed.

[David Hodgkins]

just for grins, unplug the throttle position sensor and try starting it.

Also try replacing distributor with a known working unit. TFI modules are notorious for heat induced failure. Solution is remote TFI module. http://www.mccullyracingmotors.com/

Also PIP inside distributor are more rare but have failed.

Hi Mark,

The engine harness is dead. And I've replaced the TFI:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?28165-Weird-problem-Car-shuts-off-while-driving-starts-5-minutes-later-Plus-gauge-issue

:)

[weendoggy]

What exactly are you trying to do? Find spark or find fuel or find something else? You need to start with basics. Power to "control unit" whatever that may be and go from there. All the additional circuits can be tested independently. How does that board you're going to replace get it's power? That's a place to start.

[David Hodgkins]

What exactly are you trying to do? Find spark or find fuel or find something else? You need to start with basics. Power to "control unit" whatever that may be and go from there. All the additional circuits can be tested independently. How does that board you're going to replace get it's power? That's a place to start.

I'm trying to determine why I'm not getting power from the control unit. That little board powers the EEC and fuel pump. The power lead coming in to this board is hot but the associated items aren't receiving power.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89303&d=1532359471

I've been searching online and google-mapped Dunne-Rite Performance to a tiny business outside Detroit. Looks like they may be out of business. No response from my website inquiry and the phone voicemail box is full.

I'm getting a very bad feeling that I have to change out my EFI...

fudge.

[Duke]

The solution is simple and being overlooked by most everyone. Very surprised no one figured this out yet...





















































Replace engine with new 427. Never give up an opportunity to add more horse power :cool:

[weendoggy]

Duke, that was mean...but funny :)

DH,
If that board just powers the EEC and pump, why can't you by-pass it (just to test) to see if you can get the EEC to work. Does the EEC still have it's dedicated relay? If so, jump it with power and do the same with the pump if needed. I'm guessing the CB controls fan, eec, a/c and pump from what the board says. Does power come in or out of the big terminal? Why is this control panel in the harness anyway? Part of I-Squared? This is getting fun!

[David Hodgkins]

Duke, that was mean...but funny :)

DH,
If that board just powers the EEC and pump, why can't you by-pass it (just to test) to see if you can get the EEC to work. Does the EEC still have it's dedicated relay? If so, jump it with power and do the same with the pump if needed. I'm guessing the CB controls fan, eec, a/c and pump from what the board says. Does power come in or out of the big terminal? Why is this control panel in the harness anyway? Part of I-Squared? This is getting fun!

The module is part of the mass-flo harness. 12v power is supplied via the terminal in the upper right corner marked BATT.

I'm seriously considering a Holley sniper at this point.

:)

[Itchief]

David

Have you checked the 5 amp fuse closest to the plug it looks like it provides power to the board

Are the relays removable or are they soldered to the board it looks like a burnt spot beside of the eec relay

Rick

[Just puttering]

Good eye Rick, I was thinking the same.

This is what i would do...
Check for 12v on the plug. In the pic on the top left, is says batt, this goes to one side of all the fuses. You should have 12v there when plugged in and power is on.

Pull the board out of its cover, After checking the batt side of the fuses, check the other side.Then follow the traces to see where the 12v goes, check for 12v there. Follow the traces from the fuses and check for 12v at the relays or resistors, pulgs or where ever they go. The four relays probably are wired the same so you should find a signal wire from the plug to turn them on. Look for 12v at the same locations on all the relays. Then check for the fused 12v going through the relays. All 4 will probably be the same. I think you may have a bad relay (the eec one) and may have a burnt trace on the board. If so, try running a new wire to replace the burnt one. If the ac relay is not being used, you could use it by moving a couple of wires at the plug and swapping the fuse or could replace the relay and probably will be good to go. The relay going out may have given you the intermitent problems you were having untill it finally pucked!!! Good luck

[weendoggy]

The module is part of the mass-flo harness. 12v power is supplied via the terminal in the upper right corner marked BATT.

I'm seriously considering a Holley sniper at this point.

:)

12v power in or out? If in, my suggestion is to by-pass the control panel and go directly to the EEC relay (provided they left that in like Ford had). If not, you have to do some further diagnostics.

If the control panel "supplies" power to the EEC, my suggestion is to power the EEC direct from battery and eliminate that panel to see if it functions. It doesn't have to run, you're just testing to see if it works, and you can do the same thing to the pump circuit as I described above. Not seeing a wiring diagram or being there makes this type of problem a challenge, but not difficult.

I checked the Dumb-Rite site and can't get any info other than pictures and descriptions, but from what I see, if I'm on the right track, is they use the stock EEC from Ford and wire their own control panel in (which would need wiring from the Ford EEC).

[TDSapp]

It does look like the relay has a bad contact in it and has burned up. Good thing is it looks like they are using off the shelf relays on it.

Pull the board from the case and take a picture of the back. It does look like the relay is soldered to the board and not in a socket. Get a close up photo of the relay so we can see the numbers and we may be able to find a replacement. Then swap out the relay and give it another try.

[canuck1]

Hi David,

I still have Mass-Flo EFI on my car and powered by an I-Squared electronics (relay based) system to boot! I wouldn't let anyone get too worked up about how it ties into the EFI harness, they are largely independent, other than the control you employ by turning the key. My Mass-Flo EFI harness has a similar grouping of the same four relays but they are not mounted on a circuit board, just sockets that are directly wired into the EFI harness. Not sure if yours is older or newer than mine but I bought it from Chris at Mass-Flo EFI back in 2006 and its never caused me grief. Have you checked the small ring terminal under the rear intake manifold bolt (EFI ground)? If it has broken loose it might be why your board isn't lighting up!

Sean

[snakedoc]

David,

My setup was exactly like Sean's, purchased in 2006 and powered by I-Squared. Never had an issue with the setup but last year I ended up going to stack injection with an AEM ECU. If you need the Mass-Flo ECU
or distributor to try, let me know. Your more than welcome to it.

Danny

[David Hodgkins]

Hi David,

I still have Mass-Flo EFI on my car and powered by an I-Squared electronics (relay based) system to boot! I wouldn't let anyone get too worked up about how it ties into the EFI harness, they are largely independent, other than the control you employ by turning the key. My Mass-Flo EFI harness has a similar grouping of the same four relays but they are not mounted on a circuit board, just sockets that are directly wired into the EFI harness. Not sure if yours is older or newer than mine but I bought it from Chris at Mass-Flo EFI back in 2006 and its never caused me grief. Have you checked the small ring terminal under the rear intake manifold bolt (EFI ground)? If it has broken loose it might be why your board isn't lighting up!

Sean

I don't remember this little detail!! Wouldn't it be AWESOME if that's the culprit?!? I'll check it when I get home.

:)

[David Hodgkins]

David,

My setup was exactly like Sean's, purchased in 2006 and powered by I-Squared. Never had an issue with the setup but last year I ended up going to stack injection with an AEM ECU. If you need the Mass-Flo ECU
or distributor to try, let me know. Your more than welcome to it.

Danny

Danny, thanks for the offer! If the ground isn't the issue I'm definitely interested. Do you have the module pictured above?

:)

[David Hodgkins]

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89412&d=1532484794

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89410&d=1532484781

Houston, we have a problem. Looks like the EEC relay is blown. Looks like they are soldered on?

Where can I get a replacement, and could the board be bad? How do I clean that carbon(?) off the board?

[Itchief]

David

I would talk to Danny and see if you can work out a deal to purchase his entire mass-flow to replace yours we don’t know what caused the board to fail and replacing the board without locating the fault may cause the replacement to fail also

Better to replace the entire system if possible

I tried to find a replacement relay using the numbers on the top of the relay the closest part number match is the CM1-D-P-12V but I cannot find a vendor

Just my 2 cents worth

Rick

[snakedoc]

Hate to say it but I'm still using the complete Mass-Flo harness with that relay block. Just modified it to work with the new AEM ECU. I wonder if Chris from Mass-Flo can at least tell you where to get one
or if he has anything similar that will work.

Danny

[Itchief]

If you cannot find a replacement relay and you are not using the AC connection you could move the AC relay to the ECC location on the board

[Jeff Kleiner]

David,
Get in touch with "Videodude" Allan. He loves doing this kind of circuit board stuff (is he the friend who checked out your ECU?)

Good luck,
Jeff

[Just puttering]

Dont worry, for an electronics person, that should be an easy fix.

The best part is it is no longer a ghost haunting you

Rub the black stuff off you wont hurt it!

I assume the relay was going bad, gets hot the heat went there, you get a burnt spot.

[TDSapp]

This is a CM1-D-P-12V made by Panasonic Industrial and it looks like it was discontinued in 2014. You can find a spec sheet for it here.

https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/315/ds_61204_en_cm_pd2014-1075658.pdf


I am looking to see if there is a replacement relay from Panasonic.

[TDSapp]

Might try this guy, he has a 100% ebay rating.


https://www.ebay.com/i/142407957227?chn=ps

[David Hodgkins]

Might try this guy, he has a 100% ebay rating.


https://www.ebay.com/i/142407957227?chn=ps

$6 is a lot cheaper than changing out the whole thing...

I spoke to Allen (videodude) and it seems to be an easy fix but as a few have mentioned, I wonder if there is an underlying cause? Allen seems to think possibly a ground short?

In his words: "I know you changed your TFI, but what about the PIP sensor in the distributor? Do you have another distributor that you could swap? Whatever took out that relay was a dead short to ground."

??

[i.e.427]

It appears that the module you have there does the same things as the Ford CCRM. They are readily available and I believe it could be wired it into your harness. Just another option.

https://lmr.com/item/LRS-12577A/mustang-ccrm-relay-pcm-fuel-pump-fan-9400?utm_source=google-shopping&utm_medium=comparison-shopping&utm_campaign=google-shopping-v2&year=1995&adpos=1o1&scid=scplpLRS-12577A%231995&sc_intid=LRS-12577A%231995&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI5bDdwqe93AIVRG5-Ch3jeQJ9EAYYASABEgJ_G_D_BwE

And sometimes parts just fail.

[G_Hodgkins]

$6 is a lot cheaper than changing out the whole thing...

I spoke to Allen (videodude) and it seems to be an easy fix but as a few have mentioned, I wonder if there is an underlying cause? Allen seems to think possibly a ground short?

In his words: "I know you changed your TFI, but what about the PIP sensor in the distributor? Do you have another distributor that you could swap? Whatever took out that relay was a dead short to ground."

??

Swap the distributor out with my mustang, just return it by wednesday :)

[Itchief]

Who knows you may get lucky and the relay is the only part that failed

[David Hodgkins]

Who knows you may get lucky and the relay is the only part that failed

Well we'll see. I ordered the relay.

Frank's idea looks promising, I just have to figure out how I would wire it...

:)

[videodude]

OK, I'll throw in my 2 cents here: Dave's A9L showed NO signs of a short anywhere. No burned traces, no damage. I changed the 3 caps anyway, just as Preventative Maintenance. The burnt trace on the relay board, under the EEC relay is on the common ground pin, which seems an odd place UNLESS the solder around the relay pin and the pad on the board was cracked. In any case, It looks like there was a LOT of heat (and read that CURRENT) that got pulled through that relay which caused the damage. There are multiple "things" that receive power on that same line, the EEC being just one of them. I'm thinking that one of them has given up the ghost and may be shorted.

Video

[snakedoc]

I have my Mallory distributor that I used with my Mass-Flo. If you need it, let me know.

Danny

[videodude]

Dave,

I just noticed that the relay board has an AC relay on it that you don't need or use; it's the same relay. Carefully desolder the AC relay and use it in place of the EEC relay. Just use a piece of bare wire between the ground pin and a clean spot on the ground trace on the board. Use good solder. I only use silver solder, you should be able to get that at any "real" (not Frys) electronics store.

Allan

[videodude]

I think I made a mistake. I've tried to draw a schematic of the control board from the pictures, but it's hard without having the board in front of me. I was looking at the board all wrong. The burnt trace is on the HOT side of the relay, not the ground. Dave, was the EEC fuse blown? Regardless, the traces on the output of the relay show NO signs of overheating; this looks more like an internally shorted relay OR a bad solder joint that failed. I think that just replacing the relay should fix the problem. IF there had been an EEC short, that fuse should have blown FIRST, the relay contacts are 40A; the fuse is 10A.

Hard to read from the photos, but it sure looks like the A/C relay is the same part; I'd just move it to the EEC position.

Allan

[David Hodgkins]

You guys are awesome.

I'm going to try and move the A/C relay to the EEC position. Allan, a big THANK YOU for your help so far, and your offer to move the relay in your PM. I know a good electronics store near me so I'll visit them this evening and give it a go. I don't have the proper accoutrements to restrain the board so I'll pick up those as well.

Wish me luck!

:)

EDIT: PS yes, one or more fuses looked blown to me. I'll update you which ones when I get home from work.

[Just puttering]

89533

looks like you lost the trace next to the relay also.
when you pull the relay, check under it closely for more burnt traces
Also, get some solder wick to pull the solder off the board if you don't have a better option.

[TexasAviator]

As Just puttering said, watch that trace and if its bad just resolder in the part that needs replaced and run a jumper from there to the next through hole on the circuit. You guys really pulled together to help. Great work that everyone added. I think there is hope to salvage the mass-flo. Good luck David.

[David Hodgkins]

I performed the operation:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89565&d=1532823470

Turned the key and I got lights on the board!

Tried to start it and....


Low battery! (friggin active I-Squared harness...)

I'm charging over night and we'll see in the morning if we have success!

4/28 - 7/28. 3 months on the nose since HB. TOO LONG to be off the road!

Fingers crossed!

:)

[David Hodgkins]

Looks like I could use some more solder on the board. I'll fix that up tomorrow after I test it.

:)

[Itchief]

Good luck I hope it works and fixes all your issues

Rick

[David Hodgkins]

It WORKED!!!


She fired right up!! It sounds like the computer needs to re-learn but I'm dropping her on all fours and taking her for a spin!

THANKS GUYS!!!

:)

[Jeff Kleiner]

Woo-hoo! :)

Jeff

[David Hodgkins]

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89587&d=1532886995

looks like you lost the trace next to the relay also.
when you pull the relay, check under it closely for more burnt traces
Also, get some solder wick to pull the solder off the board if you don't have a better option.

I didn't run a new trace wire.

Should I add it? Might as well as long as I'm pulling the board again to add some solder.

I haven't driven her yet. I'm jamming through a bunch of hunny-do's and will get back to it later this afternoon.

Thanks again to everyone!

:)

[videodude]

Dave,

Adding an additional wire on that other trace wouldn't hurt, but probably isn't necessary. I'd re-flow the solder on the relay pins, as that board is double sided and you don't want a repeat performance. The adaptive portion of the A9L will need to re-learn everything, as it would have defaulted to "factory" values, which although not perfect are good enough to drive the car.

I'm glad the relay swap "fixed" the problem for you. Good Job!

Allan

[Just puttering]

Oh its a happy day when you finally kill a grimlin that has been plaguing you!!!
Congrats

Also, i would use phone wire or lan wire (that size) for the small trace

[jmccabe]

Great to here ! You deserve a good drive in her .

Jeff

[David Hodgkins]

Dave,

Adding an additional wire on that other trace wouldn't hurt, but probably isn't necessary. I'd re-flow the solder on the relay pins, as that board is double sided and you don't want a repeat performance. The adaptive portion of the A9L will need to re-learn everything, as it would have defaulted to "factory" values, which although not perfect are good enough to drive the car.

I'm glad the relay swap "fixed" the problem for you. Good Job!

Allan

Allan Thank you for teaching me so much about the electronics that go into this EFI system. And for volunteering to maintain my 9L. I know a TON more about my car overall with this deep dive.

I hate to say it but it was kinda fun.

:)

[Big Blocker]

Dave, Ol Buddy, Good to hear you are back up-n-running . . . Allen, thank you for taking care of my old friend "Wookie". I figured if anyone could steer David in the right direction, it would be Allen. He's the best and I owe him and his wife a drink or two for helping you out on this issue. Allen, if you're listening, stop by C & C Saturday and the "Einstein's" is on me.

Doc

[Itchief]

Glad to hear that you are back on the road again

Since mass-flo no longer supports your setup you may want to check with Danny, ebay and craig’s list to build yourself a stock of low cost repair parts

Rick

[David Hodgkins]

I took the time to add more solder to the board. Here's a close-up of the final repair:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89603&d=1532931117

I cleaned up the board a bit and you can see from the pic that the trace looks to be intact. I special shout out to just puttering for calling that out. :)

And here's a final pic of the board with the relay moved:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89604&d=1532931126

I was so busy around the house today I didn't get a chance to button up the dash so I guess first drive will have to wait again until tomorrow.

I'm so stoked I made it through this without a major investment. You guys are the best.

:)

[i.e.427]

I guess first drive will have to wait again until tomorrow.

I'm so stoked I made it through this without a major investment. You guys are the best.

:)

Does this mean you will be joining us for breakfast in August? ;)

[David Hodgkins]

Does this mean you will be joining us for breakfast in August? ;)

What's the date? I plan to be there! I have some driving to do first, so the computer learns again and I feel confident about venturing further away from home.

:)

[videodude]

Dave,

Take the car for a drive around the immediate area for an hour or two. That should update the A9L.

Video

[CVOBill]

That's great news David!

[David Hodgkins]

Can you believe it? All of this anticipation and I was too lazy after work to go to the shop to pick up the rivets, silicone and rivet gun so I reassemble the glove box.

I'm such an idiot! gosh!
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89659&d=1533054068

[Straversi]

Is there going to be a first restart video?

[David Hodgkins]

Is there going to be a first restart video?

Nope, no restart video but she fired right up!

I have a small grounding issue with a few gauges but this little sidetrack is complete.

THANK YOU to everyone who helped me get through this little hiccup! I drove here around this weekend and got to enjoy her for the first time in a LONG time, and even made a new trans cover (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?19913-MKIII-5369-quot-Refresh-quot-Thread-Lic-Plate-and-Louvers-Mounted&p=336937&viewfull=1#post336937) for her this weekend.

Woop woop!

:)