Jazzman's 1967 Ford Mustang Build: FlipTop gets a Sister! [Archive]

Jazzman

07-17-2018, 09:54 PM

Building my Factory Five Roadster was one of the best decisions I have ever made! Excluding the decision to marry my bride of 30 years and having two fantastic kids, the experience of building my MKIV brought more joy and personal growth than almost any other I have done. I began that journey to learn, to experience, to challenge myself. Regardless of the actually end product, I personally got more out of the build experience than I could have imagined. (I think the car came out OK, too!!) It challenged my creativity, my innovation, my tenacity, my patience. So when the build was done, I was . . . well, bored.

I craved the challenge, the distraction, the learning, the release. I knew early on I would want to do a second car, I just wasn’t sure what it would be. I have entertained possibilities of another FFR model, another Roadster for my wife, a Corvette, a Porsche 911, a 1956 Ford F150, a 1951 Mercury Lead Sled, a late ‘60’s Ford Bronco, etc, etc. All have their allure, all have their challenges. I spent a lot of time reading various forums, looking at available project cars, considering options. Nothing I found had the right combination of quality un-restored condition, price, locale, and that indefinable something that captures my imagination. I must admit that one of the hardest parts of this decision was deciding whether or not to do another FFR model. They are all wonderful, each with their own personality. I still eagerly await the next FFR offering. I treasure all the new friends I have made on this forum. I thank each of you for welcoming and encouraging me through my journey. The Factory Five Forum is a safe, supportive, and nurturing place. I am already aware that not all forums have these values!

When I was in High School, my best buddy’s older brother had a 1967 Ford Mustang Coupe. I thought this was the coolest car around! I loved just looking at it. I never even got to ride in it! But I never forgot that aggressive stance and the cool turn signals in the hood. I think that was the singular car that fueled my passion for cars. I am now aware that the Fastbacks are the most collectible, then the convertibles, and in a very distant third position is the humble Coupe. I seriously considered tring to find a decent fastback, but if it wasn’t already completely restored, it was a very overpriced rust bucket!! My mind kept wandering back to that White Coupe in Todd’s driveway.

About three months when I was in Hawaii on vacation, I came across a craigslist ad for a 1967 Ford Mustang Coupe “Project”. By the time I came home from vacation, the ad was gone. Sadly, I assumed it had been sold and I had missed that opportunity. That was ok, because I was still having the internal debate of “Fastback or Coupe.” Coupe was the first love, Fastback the new obsession. Fast forward to about two weeks ago. The same ad pops up again on Craigslist. It turns out to be only a couple of miles from my home. After a lengthy series of text messages with the owner, I was able to schedule a time to look at the car. Long story short . . . FlipTop has a baby sister!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89058&d=1531881505

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89057&d=1531881487

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89054&d=1531880672

She is in pretty good condition considering she is 51 years old and has been a project for over a decade, and not stored indoors. (He did keep a tarp over her, and she is an Arizona car. Rust is not quite the same issue that it is in snow country.) She has a 289 engine that has been “gone through” (whatever that means!!)

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89053&d=1531880634

Based upon the dried-up bottles of engine lube and other liquids that I found in the trunk, I suspect the former owner did the “rebuild” himself. (Clearly this means that his engine work cannot be trusted! At a minimum, it means having a professional go over the entire engine to see if I runs.) She has an automatic transmission, but I have no idea if It has ever been serviced. The interior is completely shot. The exterior is all “Primer” grey, but the primer looks like parts of it were put on with a brush! There is minimal body filler, but what is there was very poorly applied. The former owner cut out all the brake lines, all the fuel lines, power steering lines, and the vast majority of the wiring. He was kind enough to leave all this newly created trash in the trunk for me! I can’t quite figure out why. It’s garbage at this point.

Bottom line: This is a complete restoration. First task: completely strip her of everything and have the entire car media blasted to get down to raw metal and see what I am working with.
Unlike the Roadster where I had spent two years planning and envisioning the car, this one does not have a fully formed build plan yet. Here is the basics that I know at this time:

Overall concept: Build a streetable RestoMod Pro-Touring car that I can drive year around. A car I will be comfortable and able to take Grand kids out it on a Saturday afternoon. (Specific Grandchildren to be added later!!) It will not be a classic “concours” type restoration with everything just as it was on the showroom floor in 1967. It will NOT be the original color (an awful light green!). Themes will be drawn from the original but will in most ways be a modern car hiding inside a classic shell. It will not be another “Eleanor” clone but may have some more modern treatments at the front and rear. It will, however, be up to my already established standards!!

Engine: Either a rebuilt and improved original engine that came with the car (unlikely), or a Current Coyote engine (most likely), or possibly a modified 3.5L Ford EcoBoost V-6 with twin turbos, (If I decide upon an homage to the GT-40, not very likely, but not out of the realm of possibility.)

Tranny: Must be automatic to satisfy the wife. Perhaps the stock C-4, perhaps the current tranny that comes in a 2016-17 Ford Mustang, perhaps even one of the 8-10 speed autos with paddle shifters.

Rear end: Either the stock 9” rear that came with the car (rebuilt obviously), or a new Independent rear suspension.

Front suspension: Independent Front suspension to improve ride and handling, to lower stance, to eliminate the shock towers and add room for the giant Coyote, and to clean up the overall engine bay look. Still working on which brand of IFS I will use. (Suggestions appreciated.)

Wheels: Definitely Foose Wheels, probably Impala’s.

Color: still very much up in the air. I only know it won’t be a candy job this time!!

It will have a modern interior with all the amenities. AC is an absolute must. It came with the factory “add on” type AC unit that mounts below the dash and above the tranny tunnel. It looks a bit too dated and clunky for the modern interior I want, so likely it will not be used. Seats will likely be higher back seats, not stock ones, but not racing seats either. I talked to my interior designer and told him that I wanted to start with a completely blank page on this one. No pre-conceived notions of what is every other Mustang interior. I may even try my hand at installing a backup camera. (My bride would like that!)

Last night I cleaned out the trunk. What a lot of junk.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89059&d=1531881522

Why do I have six hubcaps, only two of which are from a mustang, and none of which I will be reusing?! All the nuts and bolts are in paper and plastic containers that are seeming to lose their molecular integrity. Nothing is sorted or marked. This is going to be fun!! Found a couple of dents on the floor of the trunk and on the PS rear wheel tub, but nothing major. Best news of all: No significant visible rust, no soft spots. (I am not delusional enough to think I won’t find some rust to repair, but thus far it looks pretty minimal.)

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89062&d=1531881590

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89061&d=1531881574

Since this is the Factory Five forum, I am not sure how much people may care about my doing a full build thread on my progress on a 1967 Ford Mustang. Having said this, I found that I got immense joy doing the full build thread on the Roadster. I have enjoyed going back over my own build thread to relive the joys and sorrows. It is very much a diary of my personal journey, a reminder of all the friends I have made along the way. I will probably keep at least some basics here for my own enjoyment in the future. (If at any time the moderators would like me to stop posting in this thread, just ask. I more than happy to oblige.) If you would like to go along with me through this next build, please let me know. The more people that are interested, the more detailed I will be in the build thread.

Jazzman

07-17-2018, 09:55 PM

Build Thread Table of Contents:

1932

07-17-2018, 10:48 PM

Keep it coming !

RoadRacer

07-18-2018, 07:33 AM

Yes please! I'd have picked coupe too :p

TDSapp

07-18-2018, 10:11 AM

Yes Yes... Please keep it coming. I am not a Mustang fan.... Well let me rephrase that. I am not a modern Mustang fan but love the looks of the 60s and early 70s Mustangs. I will be one to follow your build thread.

Only one thing I disagree with on your build plans. While the EcoBoost V-6 with Twin Turbos would provide a ton of power, I don't think that any 60s Mustang deserves anything except a V-8. Seems like that would just be a sin and get you ex-communicated from the church of Mustang.

Jazzman

07-18-2018, 03:39 PM

Only one thing I disagree with on your build plans. While the EcoBoost V-6 with Twin Turbos would provide a ton of power, I don't think that any 60s Mustang deserves anything except a V-8. Seems like that would just be a sin and get you ex-communicated from the church of Mustang.

Thanks for your support! Yes, I tend to agree with you on a mustang deserving a V-8. I just like to put my own unique stamp on my creations, and I am letting my mind wander until a fully formed build plan emerges. Since I am primarily building this for my wife to drive when necessary, I think a V-6 with twin turbos might be a bit much for her to go visit her friends! It is a third tier idea that is just sort of ruminating for now. Probably not very likely. But it is good enough for the current GT-40!!

As for getting excommunicated from the Church of Mustang, I thrive on that! I risked getting excommunicated from the Church of Cobra when I potentially offended the high priests of all that is "Cobra" by cutting the body in half! That turned out OK! I suspect that there are still some high priests of Cobra that hate my creation, but thus far they have been too polite to say so publicly. Live and let live.

This forum continues to be a supportive and positive place. I posted this same information on "another forum" (not THAT other forum!). Thus far 75 people have read the thread. Not one response of any kind!! Thank you to all of you for wanting to walk with me through my journey. It's going to be fun! More to follow soon.

RoadRacer

07-18-2018, 06:39 PM

But it is good enough for the current GT-40!!

*cough* now, now, GT40 is reserved for a much different car of which I am a huge fan ;) All this V6 silliness is a *Ford GT* lol

Jazzman

07-19-2018, 12:41 AM

*cough* now, now, GT40 is reserved for a much different car of which I am a huge fan ;) All this V6 silliness is a *Ford GT* lol

My humblest apologies, you are absolutely correct. Of course WHY they changed the name eludes me. Oh well. :rolleyes:

Jazzman

07-19-2018, 12:57 AM

Last night I took out the major interior pieces. The front seats were only held on by two nuts anyway, so they were no problem. The back seat was not even screwed on. It came right out. I took off the rear side panels, no surprises there. Generally the interior metal looks amazingly good. No obvious rust or even notable damage. It seems too good to be true, so I am getting nervous. I fully expect to find some rust problems somewhere, but thus far, nothing serious. I am not quite sure about the DS front floor. It is perfectly flat, not corrugated like the rest of the floor. I suspect it might have a secondary panel laid over the original panel. If it was done this way, they did a pretty good job of it. I can't quite tell yet, so I will wait to worry about that part until I have the car sand blasted.

Jazzman

07-19-2018, 01:35 AM

Tonight I started removing the windows. I vaguely remember this process from my old 67 Mercury Cougar. It is not a happy or simple memory!! I remember fighting it every step of the way out, then again on the way in. I decided to refresh my memory by looking for a YouTube video on how to remove a window. I came across this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9uBLsG8p00) which got me about half the way, but also offered some good suggestions for necessary maintenance "while you are in there anyway". It's sort of ironic that it happens to be a "how to" video about a '67 Cougar. Thirty years ago when I was trying to keep my Cougar running and semi-restore it, It was extremely difficult to find any help on anything. My how the internet has changed the process of learning! But I digress.

I took 30 photographs of the procedure so I could work backwards when it was time to reinstall the windows. (I won't bore you with all of them!!) All the rubber and plastic stuff is completely shot. The windows are in surprisingly good condition. The window controller works rather well. (I wonder if I should replace it "while I am in there anyway"?) The metal inside the door looks pretty good. No rust visible. So far so good.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89086&d=1531981296

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89085&d=1531981270

And then . . . I find it. The first really major patch of rust. Right on a multiple compound curve of the front of the door.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89087&d=1531981319

That's going to take some work to fix. Ok, I knew it was highly likely there would be some rust somewhere. I knew I would have to fix it. I didn't, however, expect it in that specific place. I wonder what else is hidden . . .

PS window out, door completely stripped of everything except the latch system. One down, one to go. Then the rear windows. This is going to keep me out of trouble!!

TDSapp

07-19-2018, 09:51 AM

Wow, look at how much room you have inside that door! It looks like you could climb in and work on it.

wareaglescott

07-19-2018, 10:07 AM

Jazzman

07-19-2018, 01:14 PM

Look forward to following along! My first car was a '67 Mustang convertible!

A few thoughts:
Try to keep this thread under 1000 posts. hahaha
If anything but a coyote with the paddle shifter auto goes in this you are gutless! hahaha
Glad to see you have started a build index!

In all seriousness with the availability of reproduction parts would it be easier/cheaper to just buy a new door than repair the rust on that one?

Try to keep this thread under 1000 posts? NO PROMISES!! This should be pretty easy. No one will see this thread unless they go looking for it.
If anything but a coyote with the paddle shifter auto goes in this you are gutless! hahaha THE GAUNTLET HAS BEEN THROWN DOWN!! This is currently the leading contender.

Yes, I am seriously considering just replacing that door. $350? Good money spent. Perhaps the other door too. We shall see.

Mark Eaton

07-22-2018, 08:23 AM

Kevin,

You have found an awesome project here and I intend to follow you progress with interest!

AZPete

07-23-2018, 11:01 AM

mburger

07-23-2018, 01:37 PM

Subscribed. Looking forward to following along.

Jazzman

07-24-2018, 02:59 PM

Jazzman

07-24-2018, 03:02 PM

Kevin, I wholeheartedly agree with your statement: "I began that [Mk4] journey to learn, to experience, to challenge myself. Regardless of the actually end product, I personally got more out of the build experience than I could have imagined."

Building a Mk3, then an 818, have added a lot to my enjoyment, skills, and friend list. Now, I'm also facing the "what's next" question, but in the meantime I look forward to following your journey. Onward.
Pete

Thanks for your support, Pete! Please hold on to that Eastwood Flaring and Bending tool. I am going to have to replace every inch of brake and fuel lines, and I plan to use Stainless Steel this time. I hope I can borrow it again!! How is your engine coming? As always, call if you need help.

Jazzman

07-24-2018, 07:47 PM

Some progress has been made over the past few days. I have taken a boatload of photos so I can work backwards through them when it is time to reassemble the car. I will only post a few of them here. Rust has proven to be a much smaller issue than I feared might be the case. More on that in a minute.

The windows are all removed, including all interior mechanisms. Wow! just removing them was a chore. Getting them back in is going to be a real bear. As you can imagine, all the rubber seals are shot and will get replaced. The chrome generally looks OK. We shall see if I get really anal retentive and have them re-chromed. Probably depends upon how much other chrome has to be redone.

Both doors are removed.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89399&d=1532479254

This is where I found the only major rust problems thus far. Both doors are rusted through at the lower inside front corner of each door. It appears that the seals on the wind wings must have been gone for a long time. Water seems to have dropped down the inside of the door into that lower inside front corner and rotted it out.

Drivers side door:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89397&d=1532476339

Passenger side Door:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89087&d=1531981319

Both can probably be fixed, but I am considering just replacing the entire door. The cost isn't that much, and I don't want to worry about it. I don't like the fact that the area under the lower hinge attachment point is clearly compromised. Thoughts on this subject? Should I try to fix the metal damage, or should i just get new doors and be done with it? Thankfully that is the only major rust found thus far.

I was given a referral to a local media blaster. Well, when I say local, I mean local to my painter. It's actually a long way from my office! Oh well, he seems trustworthy. I am going to have him media blast every inch of every piece of metal I plan to reuse. After he has cleaned off the rust and paint from the doors, I will decided if it is better just to replace them. One service the media blaster provides which sounds very interesting to me is that he will "Powder Coat Prime" the entire car (for a fee of course!). The thing that makes this process sound very enticing is that they will powder coat and seal the inside of the doors, the trunk, the engine bay, even the insides of the frame rails, and after it is baked on, the coating is extremely durable. Apparently this powder sticks exceptionally well after it is baked, and because it is electrically drawn to hidden areas, it will seal areas that you can't even see. After the powder is baked, it supposedly seals the metal so it can't rust. The owner of the media blasting company has a VW microbus that had been left out in the heat, rain, and constant sunshine. He had left it in the sun to prove how durable the product was. The primer was sun faded, but there was no rust to be found anywhere. This sounds like a very appealing option. Have any of you used this type of service? Appearantly you do your pre-paint priming, sanding, and surface prep just like you would over any other primer, but this one seals the metal. I am considering buying brand new doors, then having them blasted and powder coat primed like all the other metal in order to have them seal the interior of the doors. Thoughts?

I have all the interior torn out. The Dash is opened up, only to discover another myriad of items to remove. I am planning on retrofitting the car with AC, so removing all the heater stuff is going to be required anyway.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89398&d=1532476340

I am making notes of the wiring harness patterns. It is a good thing that I plan to completely replace the wiring harness. The wires are old, brittle, frayed in some areas. There are a lot of opportunities for shorts. All the wiring is coming out. It is 113 degrees today, and even my garage air conditioner can't keep up with that temp. I probably won't be working on it tonight!

Updated list of my current thinking on the build plan:

Coyote Motor - gotta do it!!
upgraded rear suspension with Coil over Shocks - currently considering the Total Control Products Coil-over Rear Suspension (https://www.cjponyparts.com/total-control-products-coilover-rear-suspension-g-link-1967-1970/p/5804M20/).
upgraded front suspension with Coil over shocks - Also considering the Total Control Products Subframe Clip (https://www.cjponyparts.com/total-control-products-subframe-clip-full-length-for-splined-sway-bar-with-5-0l-coyote-engine-mounts-1967-1970/p/TCPKCSA22/). I have to get the stock shock towers out of the engine bay to fit the coyote in there, so this package will improve the handling as well as the stance.
Disc brakes, both Front and rear, Baer or Wilwood.
Automatic Transmission - Would like to get a complete engine/harness/tranny/gauges/AC package out of a wrecked 2018 Mustang. If so, this might be a very nice 8 speed (I think) tranny. The Coyote with a manual is more common in Mustang GT's but the Automatic can be found. It will be an automatic transmission, just not sure which one yet.

KDubU

07-25-2018, 05:45 AM

Very cool! Congrats on the new project, looks like it will be fun.

Jeff Kleiner

07-25-2018, 06:06 AM

Kevin!
What a coincidence. Just yesterday while working in the shop I was thinking of you, realized that I hadn't seen anything on the forum from you recently and intended to send a quick message just to say "Hey!". This morning I saw your announcement in the main forums and came here! Looks like a good basis to start from---I'll enjoy watching your progress :)

All the best,
Jeff

wareaglescott

07-25-2018, 09:06 AM

TDSapp

07-25-2018, 09:13 AM

Welcome to the party! It is great to have some friends following along.

I will post more updates later, as some progress has been made. Today's question: Can I order a replacement VIN plate with the correct original information?

My '67 Mustang Coupe project is at the very least going to get media blasted, at most I will be replacing the doors. Either way, the VIN plate needed to be removed. The problem is that the previous owner appearantly used some sort of solvent on it, and removed virtually all the painted portions. The embossed numbers and letters are clearly visible, but the plate looks lousy.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89381&d=1532461476

Is it possible to order a replacement VIN plate using exactly the original information. I certainly don't want to change anything, I just want to have a clearly readable plate should anyone care to look at it. Someone mentioned a "Marti Report", but I am not sure what that is. Any thoughts? Thanks!!

My only worry about this is I hear that in some states that if you "tamper" with the VIN plate in any way, to include drilling out the rivets like you did, flags the car as stolen. They will then do a full title check and require more paperwork on all the parts. So I hope your state is not like that.

I also think there might be issues with finding a company that will create a new VIN tag due to thieves wanting to re-VIN cars and that would make it easy for them. Maybe there is someone and they require you to send in the original one and will only use the existing numbers. I just don't know.

carlewms

07-25-2018, 09:18 AM

Kevin,

Looking forward to this build thread ... Thanks for sharing your next adventure with us.

Carl

TDSapp

07-25-2018, 09:25 AM

Someone mentioned a "Marti Report", but I am not sure what that is. Any thoughts? Thanks!!

I got curious and did a quick search. Depending on how much info you want, and how much you want to spend you can get build data on Ford cars from 1967 to current. You send them the VIN and they will send you a PDF with the cars build details, a little more money and they will send the "simulated" door data plate and a list of the significant dates and data. Like the build order, the build date, and the day it was first sold.

For even more money, like $220, they also send you a matted 16"X20" board in a black frame with a reproduction window sticker, door plate sticker, and how unique your car was coming off the line.

Might be cool if you were going for a completely numbers matching restoration trying to get back to exact stock. But since you are making a modern version of a 67 I don't know how much of a benefit I see out of it.

jceckard

07-25-2018, 03:31 PM

Automatic Transmission - Would like to get a complete engine/harness/tranny/gauges/AC package out of a wrecked 2018 Mustang. If so, this might be a very nice 8 speed (I think) tranny. The Coyote with a manual is more common in Mustang GT's but the Automatic can be found. It will be an automatic transmission, just not sure which one yet.

I've seen where Ford offers a coyote + 6R80 + control package https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-9000-PMCA

AZPete

07-25-2018, 03:36 PM

Thanks for your support, Pete! Please hold on to that Eastwood Flaring and Bending tool. I am going to have to replace every inch of brake and fuel lines, and I plan to use Stainless Steel this time. I hope I can borrow it again!! How is your engine coming? As always, call if you need help.

Sure, Kevin, let me know when you are ready for the Eastwood tool. Now, the tool is in Maricopa where Tony, "Turbomacncheese" is building an 818 but he's just about done with the brake lines. Plus, he says he'd love to see FlipTop someday. Geez, I feel like a matchmaker.:eek:

Jazzman

07-25-2018, 04:43 PM

Sure, Kevin, let me know when you are ready for the Eastwood tool. Now, the tool is in Marana where Tony, "Turbomacncheese" is building an 818 but he's just about done with the brake lines. Plus, he says he'd love to see FlipTop someday. Geez, I feel like a matchmaker.:eek:

We need to do an FFR "Family Reunion" here in the greater Phx area . . . preferably when it is not going to be 115 degrees outside!! I didn't realize that TurboMac lived here locally. I would love to see his 818 project too. Fliptop is having beauty shots taken next Friday/Saturday, then she is off again for one more minor makeover. I am told that by September she will be completely done (we shall see!!) Don't rush Tony, it will likely be some time before I get to that point.

Jazzman

07-25-2018, 05:12 PM

Good update Kevin
You should definitely get a Marti report. I think they are about $50. My buddy just got one for a 74 Bronco he just got and it has great info on it. All the build options and even where it was delivered to. That is an interesting question about the reproduction VIN plate. I guess since your car is already titled you won't really be getting any scrutiny on the VIN # but I would have some concerns about putting a non original one on there and the potential can of worms that could open up. Maybe no big deal though. Just something to think about.

I have seen some 911 builders doing the frame powder coat thing. Looks like a great option. I have learned about all sorts of different ideas from following other builders on instagram. Maybe you could find some useful accounts there. Wonder if the extra thickness although minimal causes any issues on reassembly? I know I had to chase some of it out of the holes on the Cobra frame.
I don't really see the benefit to keeping the old doors unless it is drastically cheaper. The car will be nowhere near an original example when finished so repo doors are no issue and would save you the trouble.

Is your exterior vision for this car still a work in progress? You mention the chrome trim possibly needing some work. Does blacking out the trim appeal to you? I am thinking the same thing on my project car and will look into the process and cost for blacked out trim. Seems like a little more modern look but chrome looks great also.

Are you considering IRS out of the wrecked Mustang as well?
This is gonna be fun. We can spend all sorts of your money on this one!

Later last night I found the Marti Report site. I went ahead and ordered a new "Data Plate" (thats what they call it) and a basic report. I decided the fancy report wasn't necessary because my Mustang will not end up even close to original or numbers matching. It turns out that (at least in Arizona) the "data plate" is more jewelry than legal document. The actual VIN is the one that is stamped in the Frame. The data plate just makes it easier to read. I ordered the new plate with the "original style" installation rivits (a $3 upgrade!!) so that by the time it is installed, no one will be the wiser that it is not the actual original plate.

I agree with you on the doors. I will likely order new ones. I'm still thinking I will have the new ones blasted and sealed like the rest of the body/frame.

Exterior vision is definitely still evolving. I already like the whole look. I want to "add", never "detract". I have been thinking about painted bumpers or other "non-standard" bumper and lower valence treatments. Here is my challenge. I like the idea of updating the look. I like a more modern bumper style, but the "Eleanor" style bumper is already entirely dated! Painted, color matched bumpers, are the current "in thing". I am trying to figure out what will be the NEXT big thing, the Next style. We shall see.

I am considering IRS, but the cost and complexity of modifying the mounting system on the '67 Mustang to match the 2016-17 IRS is quite significant. Kind of depends upon what I find at my local auto recycling yard. I am currently investigating a 4 link system that will use the existing axel, but upgrade the suspension to a fully adjustable coil over shock system. I'll let you know when I do! I am pretty sure the original leaf spring system is not going to go back into the car.

Jazzman

08-02-2018, 02:40 PM

I had pretty well decided to spend the bucks to replace the engine and Tranny with a Coyote Motor and a current automatic transmission. However, a friend who is a certified mechanic just called me with an interesting, and inexpensive, alternative. His neighbor recently died, leaving a garage and side yard full of cars. My friend got a fantastic deal on a Corvette (needs some work, but still it's a Vette!!). The neighbor also has a 1972 Thunderbird parts car with a complete driveline: 460 engine, C6 Tranny, 9" (we think) rear end, all original. They want the car out of the back yard. For $200, I can pick up the entire car! He suggests I strip out the running gear and then send the remains to the recycler. Best of all, he committed to help me completely disassemble the various parts and teach me how to rebuild them correctly! I was looking for an educational experience. I would have to redo the front suspension and remove the shock towers on the Mustang in order to shoehorn the 460 in there, but I was going to have to do that anyway to get the Coyote in there.

OK my team of advisors: Am I crazy to consider this very old-school idea? What are my risks, what are my upsides? Thanks!!

wareaglescott

08-02-2018, 03:45 PM

David Hodgkins

08-02-2018, 05:08 PM

Jazzman

08-02-2018, 05:47 PM

That is interesting. Wonder what the overhaul cost on the drivetrain would end up being? Sounds like a good way to learn and if you sell the remains to the recycler you are essentially getting the drivetrain for free. Hard to beat that deal as long as the rebuild costs don't kill you.

Have you considered option C?
Build a bigger garage, buy the 72 T-birrd and restore that to original and also do the Mustang as the planned restomod. Clearly that is the correct answer! lol

Option C? HAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! I can always depend upon my friends to help spend my money! I'm not sure which is more funny: The idea of building a bigger garage or the look on my wife's face when she is slapping me senseless for even uttering such an idea!!

Jazzman

08-02-2018, 06:04 PM

Wow, does the hood come with it's own ZIP CODE?!?

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=90637&d=1533247375

You'd have to spec out the rear track and tranny to see if they would fit, and you will be up to your eyeballs in old rusty parts...

PERFECT!

Only semi-joking here. You stated your goal is to learn and the 460 rebuild would be a great project for that! The coyote will be worth more in the end IMO (maybe not, who knows?) but if you want to be "the MAN" whenever anyone has an issue with an old car you will gain a ton of experience and insight by taking on the rebuild. Seriously worth considering...

:)

No, but if you backed that thing all the way into my garage, it would still have at least two feet sticking out through the garage door! No thank you!!

Considering that FlipTop went "just a little" over budget, going under budget on this project would certainly be a step in the right direction. The learning intrigues me. The learning an engine that may be considered a dinosaur in less than a decade is somewhat concerning. (I just came from a conference at which two unrelated speakers both made statements that electric and driverless cars will dominate the marketplace in the next 10-20 years.) Even if I had to spend $5000 additional to rebuild the various parts, My "all in" cost for the entire drivetrain is still less than 1/4 the cost of buying brand new modern components. And if I want to live in the ultra paranoid, post apocalyptic future, if all the computers are wiped out by some sort of an EMP (ElectroMagnetic Pulse) weapon, this old school car should start. (How I would pump gas into it without electricity is never explained in the movies!!) It does intrigue me. I am concerned about value, and about gas mileage. This sucker will be powerful, but it will guzzle fuel to create that power. The Coyote gets big power but does so sipping fuel. But I guess I have already done one of those. No reason not to have both!

Best of all I can sell the existing 289 engine and C4 tranny. I can probably double my cost to buy the T-Bird. Thus the 460 could cost me nothing. HMMMM!

Just puttering

08-02-2018, 06:48 PM

Jazzman, An old wise man once said - if you go under budget, you are not trying hard enough. :)

What are the weight and size differences in the two engines? How much room do you have to use?

Thats the first question that comes to mind, what will they look like after being installed?

Al_C

08-02-2018, 07:53 PM

A comment from the peanut gallery: a 460 is a rather large chunk of iron. I can't even imagine how much that weighs. A coyote, on the other hand, weighs a mere 440 lbs. (or so). One of the criticisms of big block Mustangs over the years was they had 99% of their weight on the front end. If you're looking for a drag racer, maybe this is an outstanding idea. But, if you want something closer to an even front/rear distribution, you might want to go with the original coyote idea. Just sayin'.

That said, rebuilding a big block could be quite entertaining. OK, I'll be quiet now.

Big Blocker

08-02-2018, 08:22 PM

Jazzman

08-02-2018, 11:13 PM

Jazzman

08-03-2018, 12:28 AM

Jazzman,

We met at Dave's house, I helped you figure out your front tire wobble issue with Jeff

Not wanting to rain on your '67 parade but you might want to check engine dimensions for your Coyote or 460 build thoughts . . . biggest engine you could get in a '67 frame was a standard 390/427/428 - and they were shoe-horned in at best. If you have some one to reference back to that has already done a 460 or Coyote transplant in a '67, then go for it, otherwise my thoughts are they are too big (read: too long or too wide). Even the Boss 429's had to have the spring towers modified and the underbelly tweaked to fit the Boss 9. It was not a factory build, but rather an aftermarket modification by a third party.

That being said, there are front end spring tower delete packages available that allow just about anything in the engine bay and convert to rack-n-pinion for steering. Coil over shocks or McStruts (McPherson)

That would drift you away from any "originality" you might want to maintain.

I'd research all your [potential] engine swaps and then go from there . . . 351's bored-n-stroked to beyond 427 are do-able. FE motors are really pushing it.

When did my '67 Coupe (16 years ago), I stayed with the 5.0 EFI engine and an AOD - easy drop-in project. Everythings already set to take that combo.

Just my 2¢ having been-there-done-that . . .

FWIW, the VIN plate can be silk-screened back to original if you have all the info.

Doc

Thanks, Doc! Yes I remember . . . all too well! How embarrassing. I sure did appreciate all the help.

I know that a Coyote Transplant has been done, actually several times, because I have read the threads on other Mustang oriented forums. Haven't yet read about a 460, but if my information is correct, that is the same block as a 429, which I did read about. You are absolutely correct, the shock/spring towers have to go in either case. The good news is that there are front coil-over suspension kits for these cars that 1) improve the suspension dramatically, 2) lower the car 0.75"-2.0" depending upon the kit you select, 3) delete the shock towers, and 4) have built in motor mounts to specifically match the Coyote. The bad news is that it appears all the IFS systems that eliminate the shock towers can be purchased with motor mounts to fit many different engines, but none list the 429/460 big block. This may be the killer right here.

The consensus seems to be that the 460 will turn out big power for straight lines, but if you have to steer it, it's much greater weight makes it steer like a pig! The other comments are:
302 - Cheapest to build, easy to maintain, decent power, but certainly less than the others.
351 - Perhaps best combination of cost, parts availability, potential for modification, original-ish look, and weight and manuverabilty.
Coyote - Certainly the most expensive, Lots of current use into Classic Mustangs, several choices of IFS upgrades available, must remove the shock towers to fit. Due to low weight, this would be the most maneuverable. Also has best mileage.
460 - By far the heaviest, but lots of power potential. Really hurts driveablity, and gets lousy mileage (one site said 8-10mpg!) It won't fit without removing shock towers, and none of the available IFS systems will support the weight and engine mount locations of the 460 big block.

FWIW, A Ford 429/460 engine weighs 640lbs. A stock Coyote weighs 444 lbs. The coyote is listed "without accessories", and the 460 makes no comment at all about accessories or none. Clearly the 460 is a big, heavy engine.

This option appears to be a dead end. Hmmm. Too bad.

Thanks for all the feedback!!

Jeff Kleiner

08-03-2018, 06:12 AM

Well....just to play Devil's advocate. That 460 weight could come down significantly with aluminum heads and intake which would be natural upgrades for a performance build anyway. Probably lose about 100 pounds when all said and done. They don't have to have poor driveability---when you are dealing with this much displacement they don't have to be built to or tuned to a ragged edge to make lots of power. Mileage, yeah, they're big. Takes more to feed 'em. That could be mitigated to some extent by slowing it down at highway speed via a high rear axle ratio or better yet with an overdrive high gear which the C6 doesn't have (Ford AODs can be built to take the power). I've long said that the Ford 385 Series (429/460) is some of the cheapest horsepower per dollar in the blue oval family. Torque? You don't know torque with your Coyote but a 429/460 will teach you all about TORQUE:D Oh heck, why stop there; if you're gonna' build a 385 series anyway you might as well just go ahead with a stroker crank and make it a 514!

New tech Coyote or old tech powerhouse? Neither one is a wrong answer, they're just different answers! You're going to have fun either way and we're going to enjoy watching!

Cheers,
Jeff

Jazzman

08-06-2018, 04:17 PM

Well I guess things work themselves out for some reason. The 460 didn't work out. The current owner (widow) can't find the title for the car. The IFS replacement providers don't even offer engine mounting for the 460, so it really would be a total custom job. At least for now, the 460 isn't going to happen. Time will tell. Thanks to all for your input. It is really appreciated!

And Jeff, since the 460 was going to be a total rebuild anyway, yeah, it would likely have ended up a 514 monster!! Oh well. Who knows what may transpire!

Big Blocker

08-06-2018, 09:02 PM

Kevin,

While the 460 would be a formidable engine swap for this project, it's overall weight would just add to the fact that the early Mustangs were very light in the rear end (read: easy to spin out).
The weight savings of aluminum heads and manifold would help with that aspect a bit and any of the now-popular electronic EFI systems would help with the MPG issue. AOD's can be built to withstand a lot of power but sometimes require you to shift yourself - cool with paddle shifters.

FWIW, if I was going to rebuild a 460, I'd be searching for some Boss 429 heads to slap on her . . . but that's just me.

As for places to look for rust; the front of the windshield houses the front air intakes for cabin air circulation and the water drain holes are on the outer points right at the windows edge - early Mustangs were known for this being a poor design and a common place for rust to start building.

The bottom of the doors have "weep holes" that get plugged and then the door retains water = another rusty spot to check (one of your door pics, shows what happens).

In the trunk, just in front of the rear wheel wells is another spot that gets poor drainage of the water that seeps thru the wheel well while driving - unfortunately gets in but doesn't get out very easily.

I'm subscribed and will be watching very closely - brings back fond memories of when I did my '67 Coupe.

Doc

Jazzman

08-12-2018, 01:23 AM

Had a great saturday of destruction today! It's over 100 again here today, and the humidity is high (for us!!), but the temp inside the shop is a comfortable 80 degrees. I had pretty much the entire day to work on the mustang, a rarity recently. I started by removing the entire bumper/grill/radiator/lower valence area.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=91129&d=1534051077

The bumper is bent, and may or may not go back on. Depends upon what i can find. The rest of the parts are in decent condition with almost no rust to be found. The only part that proved to be a problem was the heavy bumper support bracket on the PS. There is a lot of rust in the area. One bolt came out with some encouragement, but the other one, the front one, would not come out. It is held on with a nut that is inside the main frame rail. The problem is that there is no way to get a wrench inside the small access hole that is large enough to go around the 5/8" nut inside the frame rail. I will likely just cut the bolt and replace it. I'm thinking on it overnight before I make any rash decisions.

I removed the front fenders, the door hinges, and the fender splash shields.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=91130&d=1534051077

The door hinges are fine, they just need to be media blasted and painted. The splash shields just need to be replaced. The PO riveted on some sort of rubber material in an attempt to prevent water from getting past the broken original material. The shields are just in terrible shape. They will be replace.

The tough decision revolves around the fenders. The majority of the panels are in pretty good condition. However in the lower corners of each fender there is clear evidence of a bad rust repair job. Worst of all, the fixed areas were not done correctly and are already rusting again! I think it will be better to just replace both the front fenders rather than try to fix an already bad job.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=91131&d=1534052771

Now that I have better access to the inside fender panel in the engine compartment, it now is clear there is yet more evidence of incompetent panel repair jobs. The biggest one is the battery tray area at the front of the PS engine compartment panel. Her is the view of the "repair" from the outside of the engine compartment area:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=91132&d=1534052772

Creative? Perhaps. Correct? not even close. Effective long term fix? NO. This panel will have to be replaced. It was likely going to get cut out anyway, so I am not exactly heartbroken.

The rust issues are definitely there, not as bad as they could be but certainly more than anyone wants. Now i have to decide if I will replace the hood cowl box. This is not just an "unbolt and replace" type of a fix. This is a major "cut the spot welds and replace a major piece" type project. The problem is that there is no way to know exactly how much rust is inside that cowl without cutting it open. (At which point you have to replace it anyway!!) Since both the front floors of the interior show evidence of current or previous rust damage, it appears likely that there is some amount of water leak from this cowl area. I think I will probably go ahead and replace the cowl "just in case". I am going to have to do at least part of the front floor area anyway.

Jazzman

08-27-2018, 01:15 AM

Surrounding yourself with the right support network is critical. Factory Five is the beginning of that network. This forum grows out of the Customer focused attitudes of FFR. Clearly you, the members of this forum have become very important to me. You welcomed me when I began, you answered my silly questions, you cheered my successes and laughed with me in my failures! Why do I do a build thread on a Mustang that relatively few may see on a Factory Five Forum? Simple: Because this forum is a safe, helpful, friendly place. I have discovered that other forums are not nearly as welcoming. I want to thank you all for that! You are truly a special group of people.

After debating (yes again!!) which engine I should choose, and the waterfall of other suspension and framing issues that each choice required, I found another "critical support" source. I had a couple of lengthy phone calls with Rich Smith, owner of MustangsToFear.com. He has a customer centered focus quite similar to FFR. He takes call himself and provides real, useful, information. Also similar to FFR, he has products to address many of the unexpected issues we might run into in the process of a project. Long story short: I will be using a Coyote Motor, and the IFS and IRS systems from Mustangs to Fear. His products appear to have high quality and they are priced more reasonably than many of his competitors.

With that decision made, I returned to work on the Mustang. I continue to tear it all apart. It continues to be in surprisingly good condition. I have thus far not found any other rust issues other than what I have already written about. I have completely torn apart the trunk area:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=92039&d=1535346036

The gas tank looks to be in pretty good shape. A dent or two hear and there, but nothing major. If I keep this gas tank, I will have the exterior powdercoated black to protect it. Should I consider replacing the gas tank? At 50 years old, is it likely to be rusted on the inside and cause me headaches in the future?

Most everything is out of the cab. All the windows are gone, the heater box is gone, all the air ducting is gone, most of the wiring is removed. I still have to remove the steering system and a couple other minor things under the dash. They are the things that are hard to reach! I am putting off those items until i have to climb in and get the steering system torn out.

Today was a big day, as I pulled the engine and transmission out. Yesterday I broke my "tool rule" and bought an engine hoist from Harbor Freight. I figured that there was not much that could go wrong on an engine hoist. So yesterday I got the hoist purchased and built. Today I put it to work:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=92038&d=1535346036

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=92037&d=1535346035

Now that the engine is out, I can get a good look at it. A little part of me hoped is was some sort of special engine that no one had ever noticed before. Nope, it is pretty much as advertised. It is likely the original engine. It is a 1965 289 block slated as a General Large Ford engine. I am also glad that i took the whole thing out. So many things were done wrong! The engine mount on the DS literally tore as I was getting the engine ready to pull out. The transmission had no bolts holding it to the supporting bracket. I just dropped the transmission support bracket, and the rear end of the transmission fell free. The tranny is only held on to the engine block by two bolts. The transmission has the following written on it in large letters: "Bad Tranny"! Well that's great news!! I am glad I decided to replace all this stuff!

The last major items are the front and rear suspension. I am leaving them in place as long as I can so I can move the shell around. I have not yet decided how I am going to roll it around and support the body and frame as I put it on my trailer and take it over to the media blaster. If you have any suggestion, preferably with photos, please let me know.

Jazzman

08-28-2018, 11:20 PM

It is interesting that nobody seems interested in a 50 year old 289 engine with unknown updating. Who'd have thunk?!! I have called several auto parts recyclers. They don't stock anything that old! I think I will put it on Craigslist to see if anyone might be interested in it. Other than that, I am not sure what I am going to do with it. Short of turning it into an herb garden, do you have any suggestions what I can do with this thing? (Keep it clean smart-alec's!!) It's a bit big and heavy to keep in perpetuity, and it will make a lousy chandelier!

wareaglescott

08-29-2018, 06:56 AM

You could start a natural reef in your swimming pool. Just jump the engine in there and see what happens.

That is funny about bad tranny written on it! Glad you are scraping that.

TDSapp

08-29-2018, 10:10 AM

Pull it apart, take it to a shop and have them vat it and ball peen it, then put it back together and paint it. Make some braces that go from the motor mounts to the floor (for balance) then put it on the living room floor with glass over it. Presto, a coffee table that all the car guys will be jealous of!

Tim

Jazzman

08-29-2018, 07:38 PM

You guys are too funny!! My wife actually joked that I should make a coffee table out of it, then quickly clarified that there was no way that was going in "Her House"!! :cool: Apparently recyclers don't want them, but someone does. I just got a phone call on the Craigslist ad. Some guy wants to buy it and will be here tomorrow with cash. Certainly a good sign, but I am not spending that money just yet!!

Jazzman

09-02-2018, 01:13 AM

Busy week and weekend. The young man that wanted my engine and tranny did indeed come buy to pick it up . . . in a mini van! Yes, we loaded engine and transmission, attached, into the side door of his minivan! I wish I had taken pictures. A nice young man with three kids, trying to restore an old 67 Mustang his mom gave him. Appearantly it is in much worse shape than mine. I made him a good deal to help him out. He wanted to know all about my project, and when he learned that I would be installing a Coyote, he wanted to know if I was going to have to replace the rear end. I confirmed I was. He asked if I would be interested in selling the one I have. We arrived at another sweetheart deal, but at least I don't have to do much to get rid of the old rear end. So last night and today, I tore out the old rear end. I love my air wrench!!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=92465&d=1535867914

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=92466&d=1535867914

I borrowed a spring compressor and got most of the front suspension pulled off. It wasn't particularly difficult, but it certainly was nerve wracking.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=92467&d=1535867915

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=92468&d=1535867915

Tomorrow we are going to visit our friends new ranch up in the cool part of the state, so no more car work this weekend. The kids come over monday for a Labor day party. Much more important than working on the old car!!

Have a safe and blessed Labor Day!

AZPete

09-21-2018, 10:43 AM

Hey, Kevin, get back to work! It's been 20 days and there's nothing new here to watch and learn. You know, don't you, that some of us depend upon this project for entertainment?

doddmoore

09-21-2018, 03:24 PM

HOW am I just now seeing this thread? My Father-in-law, the man I credit with my love of Cobras and the reason I am building a kit, restored a 67 fastback and a 66 mustang as well as a 56 T-bird. AFTER I get the cobra built and learn all about fabricating and glass work ;-) I'm going to restore a bronco with my brother for his son. My FIL also worked for Ford for 30 years, let me ask about that VIN plate and see what he knows. Have fun dude.

doddmoore

09-21-2018, 03:40 PM

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=93957&d=1537562062 https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=93958&d=1537562063

Here's my Father-in-law's fastback. His work is out of this world.

Jazzman

09-23-2018, 11:55 PM

Wow! Your Fathter in Law sets a High standard! I only hope mine will turn out that beautiful!

Jazzman

09-24-2018, 12:16 AM

Hey, Kevin, get back to work! It's been 20 days and there's nothing new here to watch and learn. You know, don't you, that some of us depend upon this project for entertainment?

Ok, Ok, Pete, I'm still among the living. Sorry I have deprived you of entertainment. However, as i remember, I haven't seen updates on your engine either!! So, I'll bring you up to date if you will bring me up to date! :cool:

So the reason that I have been sort of invisible is that i have spent much of the last three weeks helping my son prepare for the SEC Series 7 test. I am proud to say he will be joining me in my business in the near future. He has two more weeks before he takes the test. It was not until this weekend that I had any time at all to work on the Mustang. We did work on his studies diligently this weekend, but we did it in my shop! He studied, I worked on the Mustang and kibutzed. I think I had a much better time than he did!

The first and most important thing completed this weekend is that the area behind the dash is finally completely cleared out. Compared to FlipTop, the area behind the dash is cavernous! Furthermore it is absolutely loaded with stuff, most of it cracking, rusting, or just filthy. I am so glad to have all that stuff removed.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94072&d=1537765489

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94071&d=1537765468

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94060&d=1537763950

I got both the broken front windshield and the perfect rear window removed. It is helpful when the rubber is so old that it cracks. I just had to crack the rubber seal all around the window and push the glass out. The bonding material was also dried and hard. It wasn't even sticky.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94061&d=1537763967

All the wiring harnesses are now pulled out. They will not be reused, but it is nice to have them for reference.
All the brake and fuel lines are removed.
The brake power booster is gone.
The cross member underneath the engine has been removed.
The upper window seals and their aluminum mounting rails are gone.
The headliner bows are out. Not sure if they will be reused.

I think the car is now ready for media blasting. I guess I had better go get my trailer. While it is gone, I am going to have to make some strategic decisions . . .

Jazzman

09-24-2018, 12:33 AM

Now that I can get to see a bit better, It is clear that I have my work cut out for me. I certainly have seen worse rust issues. This car was butchered up by the previous owner, and I am going to have to fix his mess. Lets start with the most obvious problem area: The DS floor. The previous owner cut out the floor, badly, then sort of pieced in a new piece of sheet metal. He did not, however, use the correct piece of floor material, nor did he weld it in! He riveted it in, again, badly,

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94062&d=1537764011

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94074&d=1537766525

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94075&d=1537766612

Here is what is currently holding the front frame clip to the floorboard: Yep, no welds, just one single aluminum rivet!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94066&d=1537764236

Clearly the DS floor must be replaced. The transmission tunnel will have to be removed and reshaped to allow for the larger automatic transmission that is mated to the 2017 Coyote Engine. Since I am going to be redoing the DS and tranny tunnel at the front, and because there is just a bit of rust at the front seam of the PS floor, I figure I had better just replace the entire floor forward of the seat mountings to the firewall.

The top of the dash area shows some rust. I hope that after media blasting I can add some strength here and not have to replace the entire dash.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94073&d=1537766032

Jazzman

09-24-2018, 12:51 AM

Now lets review the firewall and engine bay area. I will be installing a new front frame clip from Mustangs To Fear (More on that later). The entire front frame will be removed like this:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94063&d=1537764026

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94067&d=1537764702

The entire frame forward of the firewall and all the engine bay side panels forward of the rearmost 12" or so of the side panels of the engine bay will be cut off and replaced. The torque boxes will be replaced on both sides. Once you remove the front frame clip, you are only left with the firewall and the floor. Since the front half of the floor is being replaced, this leaves only the firewall. I will have to wait until after media blasting to be sure, but here is what I see on the firewall right now:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94070&d=1537764757

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94069&d=1537764737

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94064&d=1537764050

Doesn't look too bad up to this point. However, This is the firewall to the outside of the engine bay panels and frame.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94068&d=1537764716

This hole is about the size of a quarter now, and I fear it will only get bigger after media blasting.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94065&d=1537764065

I am not sure If I can patch that hole, or if I will find there are enough other issues with the firewall that I will need to replace the entire firewall. I am really hoping I don't have to go that far.

Here is my current thinking of the next few steps in this process: (If you have suggestions, I am wide open!!)
1. Media Blast the entire car. Do not prime it or have it powder coated with primer. I will do that later after I have done all the metal work and panel repair.
2. Remove the floor that must be replaced to see what I am working with.
3. Cut and remove the entire front frame clip.
4. Remove and replace the firewall if I have to.
5. Install the new MTF Front Subframe.
6. Install the new front floor pan.

Does that seem like the logical order to do the metal work? Did I miss anything?

Fixit

09-25-2018, 07:33 PM

About a dozen years ago I/we toured an outfit that "dipped" entire car bodies (or whatever) for electrolytic rust removal. They'd media blast the shell, then hoist & dip the car in a positive/negative tank about the size of a shipping container.

Part of their contract was (paraphrased) is "What you think is solid, may not be...".

They aren't called "Rustangs" for a joke.

You're looking to do a MAJOR modification to a structural part of a unibody car, that has a known history of problems in the shock tower and torque box areas. Have it blasted or dipped and see what's left.

94180 94181 94182

AZPete

09-25-2018, 07:41 PM

Kevin, thanks for giving this Vicarious Viewer a fix. Your pics and words are the best!

" However, as i remember, I haven't seen updates on your engine either!! "
Arrgh, you're correct that I've been negligent. I've taken over 4 months to complete a 3-day job. My excuses are only trips to cooler climes and a few beers, whereas your excuse of helping your son is much more respectful and rewarding. My 818C is all done and running well so all I have to do now is re-mount the rear hatch and get the A/C re-charged. I wonder how many days it will take for that half-day job. :confused:

Jazzman

09-26-2018, 12:48 AM

" However, as i remember, I haven't seen updates on your engine either!! "
Arrgh, you're correct that I've been negligent. I've taken over 4 months to complete a 3-day job. My excuses are only trips to cooler climes and a few beers, whereas your excuse of helping your son is much more respectful and rewarding. My 818C is all done and running well so all I have to do now is re-mount the rear hatch and get the A/C re-charged. I wonder how many days it will take for that half-day job. :confused:

Hey, Congratulations Pete!! Glad to hear the 818 is back among the living!! By the end of the week, you won't have to recharge the AC for a few months, so get that lid on and get out there!! Hope you are well my friend!!

Jazzman

09-26-2018, 12:59 AM

I scheduled the Mustang to go in for media blasting on October 8th. They say it will be done in only four days. At this point I am not planning on having them apply their powder coating/primer. Since there appears to be a decent amount of panel work to be done, and because the entire front clip is going to be removed, it seems counter intuitive to coat everything with primer just to have to sand it off to do the welding. My plan is to have it blasted, take it home, do all the frame and metal work, take it back, have it touched up again with a bit more blasting, and then have it powdercoated with the primer. It will cost a bit more to have it blasted a second time, but at least I will be able to see all the metal that has to be repaired. Does anyone disagree with this course of action?

Clearly I will be taking the big stuff in for media blasting: The entire body, the front fenders, the doors, the hood, the trunk lid, the front and rear lower valances. However, I have an entire pile of miscelaneous parts that I think I should take in for blasting. Things like the headlight cowels, a bunch of metal stuff from under the dash, the trunk and hood hinges, transmission support, window glass tracks, etc. Should I take in all the "little stuff" to be blasted?

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94189&d=1537943005

I have ordered a Blair Spot weld drilling kit. It appears that I am going to be punching out a lot of spot welds in the near future!

Jazzman

09-26-2018, 01:06 AM

Thanks, Mr. Fixit, for your counsel. It is truly appreciated. I have heard of the dipping process. I looked around for such a service a while back, but did not find a provider in the Phoenix area. It may be here, but I couldn't find it. What I did find out by talking to 1)my painter, 2) the local media blaster, and 3) my friend that has restored over a dozen cars, is that the unanimous consensus is that dipping is a really harsh process that may do as much harm as good. Two of the three of these people have seen my mustang, and though it has issues, they did not feel that it was so far gone that dipping might be worth the risk. After tearing the car apart, thus far the damage seems manageable. I will be interested to see what I learn after media blasting.

Thanks for reading along, and thanks for the continued input!!

AZPete

09-27-2018, 10:57 PM

Speaking of dipping, Mark Donohue explained in his book "The Unfair Advantage" that in the 1960s he used to dip his racing car chassis in acid to reduce weight! Eventually, he and other racers discovered that strength/reliability/laps also were reduced.

Jazzman

09-28-2018, 12:18 AM

"All things work together for Good for those that Love God". In the grand scheme of things, on the scale of challenges experienced by our brother GoDadGo, the events of the past couple of days are on the minor end of the scale. But it has not been a great couple of days! Yesterday we were told that our beloved dog, Abby, needs bilateral knee surgeries. You might remember seeing photos of Abby as a very young pup sleeping in the footwell of my MKIV. That was only 18 months ago. Now as a very young dog, she has two torn ACL's. She has her first Knee surgery next Wednesday. Needless to say, this expense was not expected, and is quite significant. Therefore the media blasting is off for now. The work, however is not. I will just do what I can do at little to no expense.

I plan to replace the entire front frame with the Mustangs to Fear Full Front Subframe (http://shop.mustangstofear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_17_297&products_id=171). I had planned to have the car media blasted,then begin cutting off the front of the car. Now I am going to reverse the process. I will cut off the front of the car, do all the metal work, then have the entire car and new frame media blasted. Tonight I began taking measurements of the front clip.

I am adding the photos and measurements here for future documentation purposes. When I first inspected the car, it did not appear that the car had ever experienced any frame damage. I am pleased to report that this first inspection proved correct. The frame and engine bay are both straight, square, and true. All measurements are taken from the very corner of the engine cowl:

The DS upper rail of the engine bay: 44.5"

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94293&d=1538109905

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94294&d=1538109906

The PS upper rail of the engine bay: 44.5"

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94297&d=1538109907

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94298&d=1538109908

Jazzman

09-28-2018, 12:26 AM

To check Square:

from DS Cowl to PS tip of engine bay: 65"

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94295&d=1538109906

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94296&d=1538109907

from PS Cowl to DS tip of Engine Bay: 65"

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94299&d=1538109908

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94300&d=1538109909

I am trying to figure out what other measurements I should take before I cross another "point of no return". (That particular point in the build process feels all to familiar. I seem to remember the last time I did something like that!!!)

2bking

09-28-2018, 10:25 AM

Sorry to hear about Abby. Hopefully she will come through without problems and have better joints than before the tears. As for other measurements, you'll need some height ones taken from a point of reference that can be duplicated when the new clip is being installed.

Jazzman

09-29-2018, 03:41 PM

you'll need some height ones taken from a point of reference that can be duplicated when the new clip is being installed.

Yep, your counsel is sage as always. I got a similar comment from the MTF people. I started putting the car back onto jack stands this morning so I can take some solid measurements. I am leveling the car as much as possible. I will take measurements as soon as I can get back out to the shop. Today is a big study day with my son, so probably won't be till later.

Jazzman

09-29-2018, 11:36 PM

After 8 hours of studying, it was definitely time to get out into the shop. The AC had all day to get the temperature inside to a nice comfortable 78 degrees. This morning I got the Mustang back on Jack stands, and this evening I started by making sure it was a level as i could get.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94400&d=1538279784

DS Door frame level: just slightly nose high, but at close as I could get.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94402&d=1538279786

Inside DS frame rail inside the engine bay: just slightly tail high!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94405&d=1538279787

Inside PS frame rail inside the engine bay: almost perfectly dead flat!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94407&d=1538279788

Across the front frame rail that would hold the radiator: PS 1/2" higher than DS:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94416&d=1538281425

Jazzman

09-29-2018, 11:44 PM

Next I took the vertical heights of the TOP of the front frame rail.

DS front rail corner: 25.5"

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94417&d=1538281426

PS Front rail corner: 26"

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94418&d=1538281426

Inside engine bay DS TOP of Frame Rail, 2" behind corner: 25.5"

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94420&d=1538281427

Inside engine bay PS TOP of Frame Rail, 1" behind corner: 25 15/16"

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94419&d=1538281427

2bking

09-30-2018, 08:21 AM

Jazzman

09-30-2018, 11:09 AM

Now imagine moving stuff around including the car, cutting the front off, and trying to figure out what's wrong when nothing seems to line up right while positioning the new clip. The floor of the garage isn't completely flat and all you have is two height measurements and some level pictures. Maybe that'll be enough but some more measurements would build confidence that you've got the new clip positioned properly. Maybe one way of doing this would be to mark the garage floor as to where exactly all the measurements were taken from and what was where.

Another would be to stretch four string lines level making a rectangle and take several vertical measurements from it to points of interest on the body and front frame. This method would allow you to recreate the relation between the body and front frame without having to level the car. When time comes to measure the new clip, you would position the string lines so the body measurements were correct and then measure from the string to the front clip.

Interesting idea King. I will have to think on that. I came across this video of how to measure and install the MTF Subframe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgurc-85a1U). This really helped me understand what to measure. (I am off to take more measurements when I get done writing this!!)

My plan seems to change daily. Before yesterday evening here was the plan: (All this to be done before the car is moved again)
1. Cut out the floor and possibly the lower portion of the firewall, replace it and get it welded back into place.
2. Cut and remove the entire stock front subframe.
3. Install and weld in the new front subframe.
4. Do an other clearly visible rust repair
5. Get the entire car media blasted and powder coat primered.

Last night I did my first metal removal. The DS front floor in front of the seat thrones. (I don't know what to call them, but the seats sit on a raised and raked area, sort of like a throne.) You may remember that the previous owner had done a terrible job of fixing the rusted front floor. He did not buy the correct replacement pan and weld it in. He took a piece of sheet metal and bent it to fit, then riveted it into place. He then slathered some type of black goo all around it. It mostly kept the water out of the inside of the car, but it created a place for water to gather on the underside of the car. Short version: it has to go!

I started with a wire wheel and started buffing down through the black goo to find the rivets. it took a while to find them all, but I drilled them all out. Then I used a breaker bar and a hammer to separate the junk panel from the remainder of the car. That took some doing too, but thankfully whatever black goo he used had mostly become hard and brittle. Once I found an edge I could get under, it pulled up relatively easily . . . Until I hit that one spot! You know the spot . . . the one where everything else is loose, the panel is ready to come out, but there is one thing holding on tight. I tried to drill it out thinking it was a rivet that I had missed. No joy. I then tried to grind it down to release the panel. Nope. Finally I cut the panel around it and the panel came free. I still don't know exactly what that item was, but I will have to cut off the remainder and grind it down if I plan to keep that area of the floor. (It is in an area that is likely to be trimmed to fit in the new front floor.

(Lesson #next: cutting sheet metal with a grinding wheel is painfully slow! I may have to look into buying or renting a plasma cutter. Do I know how to use a plasma cutter? Noooooooo! But when has that ever stopped me before!!)

Now that I can see remainder of the floor area, it is a mixture of good and bad:

The front subframe rail is, surprisingly, not rusted. Of course it is coming out anyway, but it is good to know that the rust does not seem to have spread here.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94409&d=1538279789

The "floor" (tissue paper!!) between the frame rail and where the transmission tunnel rises is garbage! I can only imagine that the rest of the DS floor must have been similar before the previous owner did his bad fix.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94410&d=1538279790

I put my hammer right through that part of the floor with no effort at all!!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94413&d=1538279793

The outboard side of the interior floor is a real problem. Rust doesn't seem to be an issue, but the previous owner cut the original floor right against the vertical side. He left no flange to attach the new floor to. Not insurmountable perhaps, but yet one more challenge.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94412&d=1538279792

The front of the floor where it turns and rises into the firewall looks sketchy at best. I think the replacement floor pans rise some in this area. I am hoping to not have to remove the entire firewall, but that is still an open possibility.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94411&d=1538279792

I drilled out my first four spot welds. I decided to do it where the front subframe meets the lower firewall for several reasons. 1) it is likely that this lower firewall area will be cut out and replaced anyway. 2) it will be relatively unseen if I screw it up, 3) I believed (wrongly) that I would be drilling through relatively thin floor metal (true) into relatively thicker frame rail metal (barely true if at all, possilbly false!) I had not noticed that the flange on the subframe turns outward away from frame rail. I had incorrectly assumed it would turn inward like a "C" channel. I learned on the MTF forum that it is better to weld thinner material to thicker material. Since the stock subframe is coming out anyway, I figured that any holes left in the firewall pan would be correctly welded to the thicker new subframe material. Now that I have drilled out the sheet metal from the inside, I see that the holes may end up being outside of the size of the new subframe rail. I know that the MTF subframe uses larger, fully boxed framing material, but I am not sure it will be that much bigger. Time will tell.

Lesson #next: cleaning all the layers of rust, paint, black goo, etc off this car where I am going to have to do metal work is going to be very slow and tedious. It is imperative to do so that I can see the spot welds that have to be drilled to separate the panels and frame. I now see the very real advantages of media blasting!! Media blasting has now become a much higher priority on the list. As has a plasma cutter!!

I know that the transmission tunnel has to be modified to accept the larger 6 speed automatic transmission that is mated to the 2017 Coyote motors. I have got to find some one who has done this and see photos of how and how far back they had to modify the tunnel. Deciding now what I will do with the tunnel plays into my decision about what floor repair I do. If I am going to cut out most of the tunnel anyway, perhaps I will replace the entire front floor ahead of the seat thrones on both PS and DS of the car. (I still have to take a look at the floor on the PS.) If I can simply modify the existing tranny tunnel, then perhaps I will just install individual floor pans and leave the main tunnel in tact.

Jazzman

10-07-2018, 12:43 PM

It is 3:15am and raining cats, dogs, an little fish! In some areas of the country this may be a non event, but here in Arizona rain, any rain, is an event. And boy do we do it up right!! The lightning storm that comes along with it is breathtaking! Of course, I would prefer if it occurred at a more reasonable time of night, but beggars can't be choosers. Since I am up anyway, I figured I would share my very early morning with you.

This past week has been completely taken up by training classes for my son. He takes his major exam tomorrow. (Prayers for his wisdom, patience, peace, would be appreciated!!) I only got back into the shop briefly last night for the first time in over a week. I returned to the task of slowly preparing to remove the entire front subframe from the car. In order to see the weld locations, I am having to remove the paint, undercoat, grime, dirt, and God knows what else along the weld points. This required me to once again don one of my least favorite things:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94766&d=1538931267

I have eight major areas of welds that have to be removed. I am going to place them in the order I think I need to remove them to safely remove the front subframe:

1. Welds at the top of the shock towers where the towers meet the top of the rear engine bay side panel.
2. Welds along the vertical point where the shock towers meet the rear engine bay side panel.
3. Removal of the support brace that goes between the sub-frame rails at the top underside of the tranny tunnel.
4. Welds on the interior floor that weld the floor panel to the sub-frame
5. Welds on the interior floor to firewall angled panel that joint this panel to the sub-frame
6. Welds where the sub-frame meets the firewall to floor angled panel.
7. Removal of the DS torque box.
8. Welds along the bottom of the rear engine bay side panel where it meets the sub-frame. (Removing this last because it supports the entire subframe in the horizontal direction)

First question: Do I have this order of removal correct?

I started with the top of each engine bay becasue it was easy to see and to practice my spot weld cutting technique. Knowing how deep to go is still challenging. I think I am tending to go too deep, but the parts are coming apart, so that's a win! I started on the DS:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94765&d=1538931266

It looks pretty good and came off cleanly. Then I moved to the PS:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94764&d=1538931266

Definately not so good. I am wondering how long the MTF top rails are that come with the engine bay side panels? I will use these replacement sides because they fully replace where the shock tower has been deleted. If the top piece will cover that rust, I will not worry about it. If they will not, I may have to remove this side piece as well. (I may have to remove it anyway if I have to replace the firewall.)

I then moved down the inside of the shock towers. These both came loose pretty easily. I am finding that the cutter heads for the spot weld cutter don't last as long as I had hoped they might. I am already into my second cutter head. I don't know if anyplace could sharpen these things. May have to buy quite a few more, but at $9 a piece, you don't want to have to buy too many of them!!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94767&d=1538931267

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94771&d=1538931268

Its not a great picture, but you can see that the side panels are now completely separated from the shock tower:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94770&d=1538931268

Each step has it's issues, and I am debating how to proceed in each area. As an example:

I plan to remove the spot welds at the bottom of the rear side engine bay panel last. my thoughts are that these are supporting the rest of the sub-frame until the very last moment. However, these welds are on the INSIDE of the engine bay. In order for me to drill them out, I have to be either 1)underneath the car, not a good place to be when the entire sub-frame is finally loosed, or 2) i have to be standing in the middle of the engine bay, also not a great place to be when the sub-frame is finally free. Any ideas on how to get the welds drilled out by not kill myself in the process?

The DS floor and the floor to firewall panel are in worse shape than I had originally believed. It appears that it will take a floor panel that goes well up the floor to firewall panel to get all the rust out. I am fearing that a full firewall replacement may be in my future, but I am still trying to avoid it. Since the floor to firewall panel is rusted out where the welds would have been, I can't see where there are/were. As bad as the rust is, I am not sure i even need to drill the welds out. They might just pull apart. But I don't want to take any chances. I am thinking of cutting the floor to firewall panel up to the top of the sub-frame so it will be completely loose. The risk is that it may force me to replace more or all of the firewall and floor to firewall panel which I would like to avoid. The benefit is that I will be able to see where the rusted material ends and the good material begins. What do you think?

The support brace that goes between the sub-frame rails at the top of the opening for the tranny seems to only be attached by welds at the ends on the subframe. Is is generally welded to the floor pan? I assume this has to be removed in order to get to the sub-frame, right?

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94763&d=1538931265

Jazzman

10-07-2018, 05:17 PM

It is becoming much more clear that I am not sure I can cut all the metal that needs to be cut with just a grinder, or even a body saw. I think I may need to buy or borrow a plasma cutter. I can't figure how to cut the main subframe or the torque boxes without a plasma cutter. I am really not eager to buy a plasma cutter. They are NOT cheap! I can't think of anyone I know that has a plasma cutter. I am debating the relative merits of hiring a mobile welding/cutting company to come here and cut off what I want gone. While it will cost some $$$, it probably won't cost as much as buying, then having to store, a plasma cutter. I found a Miller Spectrum 375 Plasma cutter, 3 years old, on craigslist for $800. A buddy will split the cost with me. I may pick it up. I am also considering buying a new Eastwood plasma cutter. Only about $470, and new. I am not a pro shop (clearly!!) and wonder if this lesser tool would be adequate for my needs. I like to always buy the good tools, not the trash throw away tools. Wonder which one this is? What is your opinion?

Here is the DS Torque Box. (the PS doesn't have one. Is this a problem?)

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94772&d=1538931271

It appears that there are two layers of about 1/8" thick material here. WHy are there two layers, and do they both get removed?

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94773&d=1538931273

wareaglescott

10-11-2018, 05:07 AM

Interesting stuff Kevin. Reading this a couple days late so I hope your sons test went well.

I have found all sorts of additional uses for my engine hoist. For your issue of being under the car when you free the front clip could you rig up the hoist with some lifting straps and have it supporting the weight so that when it comes free it is supported and no problem to be under it? Maybe also use some jack stands for added safety?

turbomacncheese

10-11-2018, 09:08 PM

It is becoming much more clear that I am not sure I can cut all the metal that needs to be cut with just a grinder, or even a body saw. I think I may need to buy or borrow a plasma cutter. I can't figure how to cut the main subframe or the torque boxes without a plasma cutter. I am really not eager to buy a plasma cutter. They are NOT cheap! I can't think of anyone I know that has a plasma cutter. I am debating the relative merits of hiring a mobile welding/cutting company to come here and cut off what I want gone. While it will cost some $$$, it probably won't cost as much as buying, then having to store, a plasma cutter. I found a Miller Spectrum 375 Plasma cutter, 3 years old, on craigslist for $800. A buddy will split the cost with me. I may pick it up. I am also considering buying a new Eastwood plasma cutter. Only about $470, and new. I am not a pro shop (clearly!!) and wonder if this lesser tool would be adequate for my needs.

I'm trying to work up the courage to buy a plasma cutter, myself. I say courage, because it's a few hundred bucks for something I'm not sure HOW often I'll use. Same boat as you, sounds like. I've watched some guys using the cheap boxes on youtube, and it seems like as long as you get one of the 220V units (even the dual voltage, as long as you RUN it on 220) are pretty good for the price, especially for hobbyists. It's pretty neat that you have a friend who would split it with you. Might also be able to get away with selling it when you're done, if you don't mind the hassle.

1932

10-11-2018, 11:19 PM

We have a plasma cutter can't live without it now!

Jazzman

10-12-2018, 06:42 PM

I have found all sorts of additional uses for my engine hoist. For your issue of being under the car when you free the front clip could you rig up the hoist with some lifting straps and have it supporting the weight so that when it comes free it is supported and no problem to be under it? Maybe also use some jack stands for added safety?

You are right, but i realized I was making a project out of it. I was trying to neatly remove the entire front end as one piece. For what?!! I am not reusing it, it is too rusted for anyone else to want it. I can practice my plasma cutting skills and cut it off in manageable chunks! That way I will never have to be underneath it. Now if I can just get this guy from Craigslist to call me, I'll buy me a plasma cutter!

Jazzman

10-12-2018, 06:44 PM

I'm trying to work up the courage to buy a plasma cutter, myself. I say courage, because it's a few hundred bucks for something I'm not sure HOW often I'll use. Same boat as you, sounds like. I've watched some guys using the cheap boxes on youtube, and it seems like as long as you get one of the 220V units (even the dual voltage, as long as you RUN it on 220) are pretty good for the price, especially for hobbyists. It's pretty neat that you have a friend who would split it with you. Might also be able to get away with selling it when you're done, if you don't mind the hassle.

Well perhaps I might loan it to you when you need it! :cool: Lets face it, it is one of those tools you need rarely, but when you need it, there is just nothing else! Here's hoping I can get it!!

Jazzman

10-14-2018, 01:43 AM

Today we had one of the longest rainstorms in recent memory. In Arizona, if I rains for six hours solid, you can be pretty sure someone is building an Ark someplace!! So what is a man to do but drive 50 miles one way in the torrential rain to buy a used Plasma cutter!! Picked this up this morning:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=95578&d=1539498066

Once I got home (after witnessing not less than three cars that had spun out on the wet freeway and smashed into the nearest wall!!) I set up the cutter and practiced a bit. Since the entire front subframe is going to be replaced, I had lots of places to practice. I decided to start small and remove a piece of sheet metal from the radiator support area. I was quickly reminded of how very nice it is to use the right tool for the job! The concept of a hot knife through butter takes on an entirely new level with this thing!! I am not ready to quit my day job yet, but I was really please with my first attempt.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=95579&d=1539498066

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=95580&d=1539498067

Maybe I am just getting cocky, but it is time to attack the frame. (That's why I bought it right?!!) I slice down the inside of the main frame rail just below where I had already broken the spot welds. I cut across the top of the frame rail on both sides of the sheetmetal, then down the outside of the frame rail. Just as I had planned, it became clearly obvious when I had really cut completely across the frame:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=95581&d=1539498067

Just a bit more pressure, and the entire front end slowly bent to the floor.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=95582&d=1539498068

One more quick slice on either side, and presto! The entire front frame falls free.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=95583&d=1539498068

Clearly I have crossed the next point of no return . . .

AZPete

10-14-2018, 01:42 PM

"Clearly I have crossed the next point of no return . . "
LOL. :D

TDSapp

10-15-2018, 10:25 AM

Clearly I have crossed the next point of no return . . .

I think you did that when you wrote the check for the car...

Jazzman

12-16-2018, 02:06 AM

Progress has been non-existent on the Mustang for many weeks. Life, business, family, health, each seem to conspire to prevent me from working in the shop. Over the last week or so I finally got out there and worked to cut out the worst of the rust rot. I decided that since I was this far into it already, there was no reason to cut corners. The DS floor was already rusted through, the firewall had noticeable rust, and the PS floor shows a little rust at the front. Might as well go big or go home! (Wait - I am home! I guess it is GO BIG!) It took multiple plasma cutting sessions to get it all cut out, but the entire front frame and the DS Floor is now completely gone. It is going to take quite a while to finish prepping the various surfaces to receive the new sheet metal.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=99077&d=1544943013

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=99078&d=1544943016

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=99082&d=1544943017

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=99079&d=1544943016

I ordered new panels from . . . a well known vendor. The firewall looks great. The floor panels concern me a bit. They are not the same quality. I'll let you know how they turn out to fit. I hope I can get in an prepare all the surfaces a bit more in the next couple of weeks.

Just in case I don't get back to post here again in the next couple of weeks, Merry Christmas to you all!

Jazzman

07-08-2019, 12:41 AM

Bet you thought I gave up! No such luck. Life has conspired to get in the way of progress, but this holiday weekend I finally had the time to get back to working on the Mustang. (It has been an exciting six months, with lots of great things in the process.) In order to really do this build correctly, I had to get the shell on a rotisserie. I have been watching for one for months, not that I had time to buy it, get it, or set it up, I had found several over the months, but they were in poor condition, didn't have all the parts, or wanted a ridiculous amount of money for them. I finally found one yesterday. It is new, complete, and will support 4000 lbs. More than enough for my purposes. i jumped on it, and set it up this morning. (By the way, that is little Abby on the floor. She is now two years old and 70 lbs! Still loves to keep dad company in the garage though!)

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110360&d=1562559420

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110359&d=1562559405

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110361&d=1562559438

I can't actually rotate it yet. Right now it is simply four forks holding up the body. without a front frame, I can't actually attach the body to the rotisserie. For now it is just hanging there, but it is there!
For the first time in six months, I finally applied tools to metal and continued removing the remains of the front firewall. It took two hours and 50 holes drilled to break welds, but I finally got the top piece out.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110362&d=1562559460

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110363&d=1562559484

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110364&d=1562559506

I have now discovered that I put the two ends of teh rotisserie too close to the body. I am going to have to put the body back on the jackstands, adjust the rotisserie slightly, and then put it back on the rotisserie. Thats Ok. Thats how I learn!!!

Now we enter the dangerous audience participation part of our program. If you are a restoration purist, now is the time to check out. The following is not intended in any way to be a faithful recreation of the original! When I began building my Cobra, I had a pretty clear vision of what I wanted to create. (It took me two years of research to create it, but as anyone that has read that thread knows, it morphed a bit, but the end result was almost exactly what I had envisioned.) I was not sure I had the skills to do it, but I knew approximately what I wanted it to look like. With this car, I am have a broad concept, but not a truly clear vision of the how I will make this car my own. Lets face it, there are a million mustangs out there, all of them variations on a basic theme. Since this is a coupe, not the much more popular fastback, from a resale standpoint it is almost valueless. Since i know I am going to put much more money into it than it is worth, I figure I had better get exactly what i want. Problem is, I don't know exactly what that is. I am channeling my best Chip Foose, but failing miserably. The "Elenor" look, though wonderful, may be somewhat played out and not really for the coupe anyway. I have seen a couple coupes try to use some of the pieces, with varying degrees of success. So I am still forming my "vision" for this car. I am starting with an almost clean slate:

-- Pro-Touring look - modern, lowered stance, lower profile tires than original, wider rear tires
-- A modern reinterpretation, not a faithful recreation
-- Modern drivetrain: Coyote Motor, Automatic transmission
-- Air conditioning and heating for year around driving

From there, I am still considering how to make my Mustang special, unique, one of a kind. In short, a worthy stable mate to FlipTop! Have you ever thought, "you know what I have never seen on a Mustang . . . "? I have already considered and nixed several ideas for any number of reasons:

-- NO Gull wing doors. Cool on a Mercedes 300SL, bit not so much on a Mustang.
-- No Lambo doors. Too 1980's and mullets!!
-- No full-blower-up-through-the-hood monstrosity! I plan to drive this car daily!
-- No hydraulics. I am way too old to bounce a car, and it looks silly trying to do it while blaring Spyro Gyra, Coltrane, or even Tower of Power!

I have considered some several ideas:

-- Repurpose the full interior from the 2017 Mustang and use as much of it as possible in the '67. Modern front bucket seats, reuse the gauge cluster, etc. My hesitation is that this is a bit too . . . predictable. It lacks real creativity.
-- A sun roof. I don't think I have ever seen one on a Mustang, which probably means it is a bad idea and/or nobody makes one to fit. Not sure how it would look either. It would have to be shaped like the roof so as not to look like a flat spot, and would have to be fitted into the metalwork very smoothly. Not sure on this one. Cute idea, perhaps, but perhaps just too cute.
-- Full digital dash. Not sure if this could be made to look "right" in a '67 Coupe. I'm not thinking of going full Tesla on it, but not just replacing old gauges with digital replacements either.
-- I would like to replace the wind wing/side window setup with single window that eliminates the windwing. I have heard of this but never seen it.
-- There is a guy here in the Phoenix area that did a mustang coupe and replaced the rear lights with thick, polished, pieces of plexiglass and ran LEDs into them. It was truly interesting to look at. But it's been done. I don't want to steal his idea. I wish I knew who he was, I would like to compliment him on his creativity and execution.

So now it is your turn. Brainstorm with me. What ideas, concepts, visions, etc, would you consider if you were doing this car. What have you thought "Wouldn't that look good on those old mustangs?" Don't worry, no idea is too far afield. The worst I can say is "no way"!!

David Williamson

07-09-2019, 06:31 AM

If it was me building it I would do a full modern drive train as you are but keep the body and trim near stock. For the inside modern seats and dash with a classic look. I would jazz up the outside a little with a flashy paint job and maybe some brushed finish instead of chrome, classic but just a bit different. Keep people looking to see why it is not stock.
David W

Derald Rice

07-09-2019, 10:04 AM

Jazzman

07-09-2019, 07:48 PM

Jazzman

07-09-2019, 07:49 PM

The coupes were very popular as a race car in SCCA in the B sedan class. So with that in mind, a modern day Trans-Am look is what I would do in a heart beat. Everything done with a purpose in mind, yet with a modern twist.

That's an interesting idea. I am going to have to do som research to find some old photos of examples. Cool idea! Thanks.

UnhipPopano

07-10-2019, 11:08 AM

Several years ago, someone blended several cars body into one. Possible concept for being able to add what you like, as you will be the one driving it everyday and looking at it. For power I would go electric.

Jazzman

07-10-2019, 07:25 PM

For power I would go electric.

Funny you should say that. I actually had considered that possibility. Since I am starting with a bare skeleton and adding pieces, it is at least a viable idea. There are enormous fabrication and technology hurdles to clear, but . . . who knows. One major think I would have to give up would be that wonderful V-8 rumble. I just love that. Hmmm. decisions, decisions. Thanks!!

TDSapp

07-11-2019, 11:01 AM

Funny you should say that. I actually had considered that possibility. Since I am starting with a bare skeleton and adding pieces, it is at least a viable idea. There are enormous fabrication and technology hurdles to clear, but . . . who knows. One major think I would have to give up would be that wonderful V-8 rumble. I just love that. Hmmm. decisions, decisions. Thanks!!

As I said earlier in this thread... NO NO NO! The older Mustangs deserve a big V8 engine and that rumble they provide.

Ok, here is my idea... Now work with me on this one, it's really out there... You already have FlipTop so it shows you have the ability to make it work. Why not make it a hard top convertible. Something like the Mercedes SLK where the trunk opens up, the top lifts and splits in half and then drops down into the trunk. That would be something to make the nipples hard at any car show, especially if there were other Mustangs there. Maybe even have the switch to fold the top back to kick off the intro music for 2001 Space Odyssey over the radio.

You could call it FlipTop //.

I did a google search on "67 Mustang Coupe Hardtop Convertible" and found two pictures. Apparently there was a Ford employee, Ben Smith, who pitched it to Ford and once they thought about it they dropped the idea. He retired and then went and produced and sold 14 Hardtop Convertibles. Smith says that only a small handful of the cars with his design still exist today. (He said that in 2014). The car in the picture has been really pimped out thought... A little to much for me. The hardtop convertible and lambo doors with a "questionable" paint scheme. (That is my opinion...)

Maybe the pictures on this will give you some ideas.

https://www.carscoops.com/2014/05/1967-ford-mustang-hardtop-convertible/

Jazzman

07-11-2019, 07:26 PM

As I said earlier in this thread... NO NO NO! The older Mustangs deserve a big V8 engine and that rumble they provide.

Ok, here is my idea... Now work with me on this one, it's really out there... You already have FlipTop so it shows you have the ability to make it work. Why not make it a hard top convertible. Something like the Mercedes SLK where the trunk opens up, the top lifts and splits in half and then drops down into the trunk. That would be something to make the nipples hard at any car show, especially if there were other Mustangs there. Maybe even have the switch to fold the top back to kick off the intro music for 2001 Space Odyssey over the radio.

You could call it FlipTop //.

I did a google search on "67 Mustang Coupe Hardtop Convertible" and found two pictures. Apparently there was a Ford employee, Ben Smith, who pitched it to Ford and once they thought about it they dropped the idea. He retired and then went and produced and sold 14 Hardtop Convertibles. Smith says that only a small handful of the cars with his design still exist today. (He said that in 2014). The car in the picture has been really pimped out thought... A little to much for me. The hardtop convertible and lambo doors with a "questionable" paint scheme. (That is my opinion...)

Maybe the pictures on this will give you some ideas.

https://www.carscoops.com/2014/05/1967-ford-mustang-hardtop-convertible/

Oh my, we may have a winner here!! I certainly agree with you that the Lambo doors and clearly custom paint scheme are definitely one (or several!!) steps too far. But the concept is really cool. I also grudgingly have to agree with you about the need for the V8 rumble. It would just sound wrong as a "wannabe prius"! Thank you for the link and for the real inspiration. This one is going to take some real thought and consideration!!

TDSapp

07-12-2019, 01:25 PM

It would just sound wrong as a "wannabe prius"!

If you went with the electric then you might be the next guy in this commercial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhF7mVnbiXo

AZPete

07-15-2019, 09:44 AM

It's good to see you back at it! I agree with the FlipTop II plan.

TDSapp

07-16-2019, 09:47 AM

How about we take it one step further. Before I decided to build the FFR Hot Rod I was about to start a frame off rebuild on a 1976 Corvette. I even had the motor for it (Still do) and was really going to go all out on it.

I had plans on it to seal up the hood that opens in the middle of the front end, then to cut the sides and hinge it at the front so the entire front end would flip up to show the motor. I was going to have it running on electric motors to lift the front end for me. The motor is a 454 and was going to be chromed out and just bad ***. I envisioned waiting for someone to throw some revs at me at a light asking me what I have under the hood and just hitting the button to have the front end lifted up showing them. Then put the front end back down and hit the button to open the dumps and go open exhaust to send the revs back at them.

Ok, so that was a dream of mine... But I know you can do it. Then it would live up to the name of FlipTop // by having two flip tops on it. (The front end and hard top convertible.) Do it right and it looks like a normal Mustang Coupe, at least until you flip the switches.

Bump: Ok, so I also have an 89 Corvette that I stripped the motor and transmission from for the Hot Rod. I still have it because I am pulling the rear end from it for a Model-T that I am building after the Hot Rod. So I say all of that to tell you that the 89 Vette has a hood that splits on the sides and lifts to the front as I am suggesting.

http://mobile.corvettestory.com/1984-corvette-2.php#myPopup1984-corvette-16_a

I have the hood hinges still on the car. If you want to go this way then pay for the shipping and they are yours. I am sure there would need to be some modifications but it might be a good starting point for you. Do a google search on the hood hinges and see if they might be something you can work with.

Tim

Tim

Jazzman

07-16-2019, 10:21 PM

PM sent. Thanks!!

Jazzman

07-20-2019, 05:12 PM

Finally, some real progress! Now that the mustang is out of the way, and the Cobra is safely stored in the third bay of the garage (Covered with both a car cover and plastic sheeting to keep out dust) i could finally take the time to reset the mustang on the rotisserie correctly . . . or as correctly as you can given there is no front frame! I cut out the front of tranny tunnel just forward of where the firewall meets the floor pan. I removed the remaining metal left over from cutting out the existing (and rusted!) firewall. I removed all the torque box pieces except the 45 degree angle pieces of the torque box (and the same support plate on the PS) where the angled portion of the firewall will rest. This way, I know I have the firewall exactly where it was to begin with.

Finally I could remove all the paint, goop, and dried up black snot (sorry about all the technical jargon!!) from the lower inside corners of the front area. I got a five foot stick of 2" square steel with 1/8" walls and welded in a cross bar at the front of the car. This provides a very solid point to which the front of the rotisserie can be attached. With just a bit of fear and trepidation, my faithful assistance (my wife) once again stood by worrying as I spun it for the first time!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110935&d=1563658421

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110936&d=1563658433

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110938&d=1563658468

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110939&d=1563658486

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110940&d=1563658505

It works! I know that this is not a monumental accomplishment, but for me, this is a real step forward in being able to more easily access where I need to work. It is truly cool to be able to see every angle of the car without laying on my back and worrying about being under the car! My bride is happy!! (That's always a WIN!!)

Jazzman

07-20-2019, 05:57 PM

Now that I can more easily see everything, I am having to make some decisions about what to do and not do, as well as decisions about timing. Here is what I am thinking (Please give me your ideas if you think I am wrong!!)

Floor Pan: The DS front floor pan completely rusted, and was cut out long ago. I have can now see that with the exception of maybe the first inch or two, the PS front floorpan is in pretty good shape. I am debating if I should it out to match the DS pan, or leave it there. I have both a DS and PS front floor pan, so I am good to go regardless. I also have to decide if I should cut out the front of the Tranny tunnel. I plan to use the Coyote motor and either the eight or ten speed automatic transmission from current Mustangs. I have been warned that the tranny tunnel might have to be modified to accept this larger automatic transmission. here a a few photos of what I am working with:

DS floor already cut out just forward of the seat mount pan:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110952&d=1563658866

PS which I may/may not cut out at same point just forward of the seat mount pan:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110951&d=1563658853

Underside of the PS front floor pan: I know that the remains of the frame have to be removed if I am going to leave what is left of the PS floor pan. However, If I am going to cut out the entire front floor pan, this frame rail will be removed with the floor pan. I am considering cutting the floor pan at approximately the blue tape line.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110948&d=1563658790
So, should i cut out the front floor pan and take out the frame rail with it, or just remove the frame rail from the floor pan?

This transmission support bracket will also likely have to be modified or removed entirely. Should I just cut the entire front floor pan out and remove the tranny bracket with it?
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110949&d=1563658806

Another challenge is this about 1.5" rub/dent area just aft of the gear shift lever hole. I don't know exactly what caused this, but it is a significantly ground away. It did not go entire through the interior floor of the tranny tunnel, but there is clearly a bulge in the top of the tunnel.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110950&d=1563658821
Is this enough reason to just cut out the tunnel entirely?

In the trunk area, on the PS rear wheel well is this indentation:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110943&d=1563658629

It is visible on the underside as well:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110942&d=1563658570

This indentation doesn't look like it is "supposed to be there". It looks like I should fix this considering that I have easy access to it. However, if I am going to mini-tub the rear wheel wells, should I bother with it? I haven't decided if I will go to the effort of "mini-tubbing" the car. What size tires am I limited to if I do not tub the rear wheel wells? Should I go to the effort of tubbing for the pro-touring look?

Jazzman

07-20-2019, 06:06 PM

I am considering when to reinstall the firewall and one or both floor pans. I plan to have the entire car and all the various parts sand blasted. Once the car is back at bare metal, the blaster offers a service of "powder coating" the entire car, inside and out, to prevent rusting. Here is Arizona, rust is not the problem that it is in other areas, but I certainly wouldn't mind the additional layer of protection. with the firewall removed, the blaster/powder coater would have unhindered access to the underside of the dash and the front of the passenger compartment. On of the areas with the greatest amount of surface rust is under the dash. It appears because that area was already assembled, there never was any type of coating, paint, or protection on the underside of the dash. Thus it collected surface rust over the years. Should I leave the firewall and floor pans out until after the car is blasted and powdercoated? Or should i put the firewall and floor pans in so that they can be fully sealed with the powdercoating? It seems both methods have merit. The worst area of rust on the entire car was the point where the floor pan meets the lower firewall. I would n't mind getting that area fully powder coated to protect from future rust.

My current thought is to leave all the panels out for the initial blasting and powdercoating. When it returns, install the firewall and floor pans. After the engine is fitted and the size of the transmission is understood, take the car back and have the remaining panels powdercoated to protect them. What do you think?

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110945&d=1563658657

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110946&d=1563658723

Last item for consideration today. The dash seems to be in good shape, except for this top piece that supports the iconic dash shape. I am thinking of just drilling out the welds and replacing this piece.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110954&d=1563658893

I am thinking I would install this piece before I have the car blasted and powder coated. What do you think?

TDSapp

07-22-2019, 11:21 AM

My current thought is to leave all the panels out for the initial blasting and powdercoating. When it returns, install the firewall and floor pans. After the engine is fitted and the size of the transmission is understood, take the car back and have the remaining panels powdercoated to protect them. What do you think?

How long would it take you to install the firewall and floor pans? Is there a chance that the sandblaster guy will let you take it once it's sandblasted, install the panels and then return to have the entire thing powder coated at once? Would make less work for you, especially since you would have to grind away the PC everywhere the panels are going to be welded and sealed.

Tim

Jazzman

07-22-2019, 09:19 PM

Thats exactly what I want to ask him. We are going into the most humid months in phoenix, so I am not sure how much damage might be done with flash rust. I will have to ask him.

Jazzman

07-26-2019, 12:45 AM

Surprise, Surprise, look what I found: a completely rusted out hole!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111243&d=1564119494

It was completely covered by the front quarter panel, covered with silver metal tape, then painted black. One more place to try to open up, clean, and replace.

Perhaps the last of the really big cuts is done. cut out the front floor forward of the front seat throne, and removed the tranny tunnel forward of that same point.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111233&d=1564118519

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111234&d=1564118520

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111235&d=1564118520

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111236&d=1564118521

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111237&d=1564118522

I am going to cut away the floor, possibly using small parts of it to patch the hole previously discovered. I am going to keep the tranny tunnel, as I might use it again once I see how the 10 speed automatic transmission fits.

Jazzman

07-26-2019, 01:00 AM

Had a great conversation with the local media blaster / powder coater. He was very helpful. Here in Arizona, for most of the year the humidity is so low that there is very little flash rust that would accumulate if I had the car blasted, brought it home, welded in all the new parts, then took it back to be powder coat primed. However, the next six weeks is monsoon season around here. Humidity will be a lot higher than normal. (Not New Orleans / Florida humid, but quite unpleasant by our standards!!) He suggested that I weld all the pieces in place, then have the whole thing blasted and coated. He can do it in two stages, but he would have to blast it again lightly before powder coating. This would add about $500 to the total cost.

Since I don't really know what the metal looks like under all that paint, primer, and bondo, I wonder if it might be money well spent to have it blasted, then look at the bare metal to see what I am really looking at. Even with that, I am sort of leaning toward just welding everything in place, then having it blasted. Bottom line, I am not sure there really is a good answer.

I am considering whether to "mini-tub" the rear wheel wells. If I don't tub it, what is the widest tire I can safely stuff under there into stock wheel wells? If I do replace the tubs, what is the widest tire i can choose? Is the extra width worth the effort? I am sort of waiting to see what everything else looks like after blasting to make this decision.

Jazzman

07-26-2019, 10:36 PM

It's going to be 110 here this weekend. Perfect time to crank up the AC in the garage and spend the weekend working on the Mustang! I began by welding a couple of patch panels on the firewall. One small one covers the holes that would have been used for the clutch. Not necessary on my build. The second one is a filler plate for the Vintage air AC/Heating system. I cut out the old holes and welded this in. My welding is still not great, but it is getting better. I ground it down, and will fill the edges with body filler to make it all smooth.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111295&d=1564197190

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111297&d=1564197191

No the real fun begins. I get to weld the firewall back in! I put it in and dry fitted it a couple of times, trimmed here and there, and now it seems to fit as well as it can.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111298&d=1564197191

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111299&d=1564197192

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111302&d=1564197193

There are some gaps on the angled portion at the outside edges, but I will fill them with small angle iron for strong support.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111306&d=1564197195

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111305&d=1564197195

I got it all placed and have been double and triple checking that I haven't missed anything. I will weld it in either later tonight or tomorrow morning. Then it is on to the floor panels.

Mick40

07-28-2019, 06:17 AM

Hi Jazzman,

Nice build!!! I sent you a PM look forward to speaking with you.

Mick

Jazzman

07-31-2019, 02:33 AM

In the absence of feedback or counsel, I decide to just jump into the deep end and spot weld in the firewall. To be honest, my first spot welds were a bit rough, but I got pretty good. After doing a few of them, I was able to get the full drilled out spotweld area filled with one quick stroke. It felt pretty good!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111591&d=1564557073

spot weld penetration looked good (to me anyway!!) If I am wrong, please let me know.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111592&d=1564557073

The firewall is really solidly in there now. I haven't ground down the spot welds yet, but I will. I next moved on to the PS floor. I first had to decide where to cut it and where to weld it. I decided to over lap the new floor onto the old floor under the front seat to just beyond the first access holes for the seat bolts.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111598&d=1564557076

I then drilled a bundle of holes for the spot welds. I drilled one set along the flange that goes along the outboard edge, two rows at the rear of the floor panel where it goes under the seat pan, and two rows at the front of the floor panel, one one the "bottom" and one on the angled front piece that goes up the firewall. I cut off this front piece so that it only went up the firewall by about 2". I then buffed off all the black primer from the areas that would be welded. It took quite a while to prepare this panel, but I really worked well.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111599&d=1564557076

I clamped it into place. I began by pounding and welding the flange along the outboard side. I then worked my way toward the middle of the car along the two rows of spot weld holes under the seat pan. This took a bit of encouragement with a hammer, but it really fit in nicely. I had to keep stopping to move the few clamps I have to their most optimum location for each weld. It is REALLY solidly attached! I did not yet stitch weld the back edge of the floor panel. I also did not yet weld the floor panel to the firewall panel. I don't have a clamp long/deep enough to reach where I need to in order to make the welds tight. I have an extra long clamp on order now, but it will be 7-10 days to get it. I have other things to work on!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111602&d=1564557077

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111605&d=1564557078

Hopefully this next weekend I can get the other floor panel prepared and welded in.

Jazzman

07-31-2019, 02:50 AM

I really don't know if this is a problem or not. (This note actually should have come before the previous one, but I forgot to post it!) Before I welded in the firewall, I wanted to make sure that the sides of the bod were still square. I began measuring across the bottom of the car from the bottom flange on one side to the bottom flange on the other. I took measurements about a foot apart. Here were the back two measurements: both are 55.5".

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111594&d=1564557074

The next two measurements moved slightly closer together to 55 5/16" and 55 1/8".

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111595&d=1564557075

The next two moving forward got even more narrow: 55 1/16" and 54 15/16".

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111596&d=1564557075

The final two at the front of the body were even more narrrow! 54 7/8" and 54 9/16".

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111597&d=1564557075

Therefore, front the front to the rear of the cockpit area of the car, the front is more narrow than the back by almost a full inch. The firewall fits perfectly, so I am choosing to believe that this narrowing is a part of the basic design of the car. Am I right?

Derald Rice

08-11-2019, 06:27 PM

Watching one of the time wasting TV car shows called FanthomWorks. They are putting a coyote into a 68 mustang coupe. Evidently the hood will not clear the throttle body, so they are creating a lot of drama.

If you can find it onllne, it might offer some insight into a part of your project that you will have to deal with later. It is episode 63 on Motor Trend TV.

Jazzman

09-01-2019, 02:27 PM

For the few of you that are joining me on this journey, thank you for hanging in there. Life has changed somewhat dramatically for our family in the past month. My sister was diagnosed with stage 1 pancreatic cancer. We are thankful that it is only stage 1, but it still a major gut punch! Needless to say my free time has been almost entirely taken up by more pressing issues than car restoration. I finally was able to get back to it this weekend.

I recently purchased my own Lincoln Welder. I had previously been borrowing a friends, but he needed it back and I felt bad about needing it for months on end. I finally was able to get it hooked up yesterday. It welds. . . lousy!! I couldn't figure it out. It's a 220 volt machine, it should be fantastic. I rechecked all my settings, changed them a lot because what I was using was clearly wrong. I finally went in and searched the internet to see if someone else had similar problems on a new welding rig. After 90 minutes of videos, I finally discovered the problem. The setup directions were for when you plan to use flux coated wire. I am using regular welding wire and 75/25% shielding gas. Turns out that the instruction that I read, the first page, said to set it up as negative to the welding gun, positive to the work clamp. Turns out that on the second page of instructions, it tells you the polarization must be switched to to welding gun positive, work clamp negative! Switched the polarity late last night and I haven't had time to try it out again. I have a feeling that it is going work great now!

So the question of the day is: When is it time to give up fixing sheet metal parts? Both of the front fenders have damage on the lower sides of each fender. They both were "fixed" previously by a welder who (if possible) is an even worse welder than I am! He used the wrong gauge sheet metal, left all the rusted material behind it, did nothing to paint, prime, or protect the new work, and instead of carefully fitting each patch, he slid a piece of thinner sheet metal in behind the rusted out area, welded it (sort of) through the rusted out holes, and covered it with a very thick slab of bondo. I can get the bondo out, I can cut out the front sheet damage. I can weld in correctly a new front sheet metal patch made with the correct material. What I can't do very easily is repair the vertical piece on the back of the front panel that attaches to the car. Take a look at these photos:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=113522&d=1567364337

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=113524&d=1567364337

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=113523&d=1567364337

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=113518&d=1567364335

The structure backing up the front skin of the car is rotted, put back together badly, and now needs further rust repair because it was not done correctly the first time. I have read many times that remanufactured body panels, even the good ones that are expensive, are a poor replacement to the originals. I looked around, and I can buy the entire fender for about $140 each. I can't buy the inner support structure only, so a complete fender appears to be the the only option. So what is your opinion? Should I even attempt doing such major surgery on both front fenders, and both the front and the rear area of both right and left fenders? Or is it time to admit defeat and buy replacements? If I buy replacements, what brand should I look for and who would you trust to provide them?

David Williamson

09-02-2019, 07:40 AM

I saw the "flip top" at Huntinton beach, I know the standard you build to. I think you know what has to be done..... new fenders are the answer
David W

Jazzman

09-03-2019, 09:59 AM

I saw the "flip top" at Huntinton beach, I know the standard you build to. I think you know what has to be done..... new fenders are the answer
David W

Yep. That is the decision. I was afraid I was just being a wimp not fixing the originals. Many have agreed that these need to sleep with the fishes. And so they will! I am packing the rest of the car up now to send it all to media blasting before I make any further decisions. I have to know all the facts before I can proceed.

Jazzman

09-03-2019, 04:20 PM

Took the Mustang to the media blaster today. Uneventful. They say it will be a couple of weeks until it is done. Time to clean the garage, perhaps even pull out FlipTop. (Still 109 here today, so that may be a bit premature. We shall see!)

Jazzman

10-23-2019, 01:46 AM

It took three times the 2 weeks that I was originally quoted to get my Mustang media blasted. The good news is they did a good job. The bad news is they did a good job!! Here's the body after blasting: Looks great, right?

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=116541&d=1571812312

Closer inspection revealed a surprising number of rusted out "swiss cheese" issues. Start with the doors. I knew I had minor issues. Wrong! I have major issues! Both doors have to be replaced. (If you are counting, that is both front fenders and now both doors.)

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=116542&d=1571812312

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=116549&d=1571812315

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=116544&d=1571812313

now lets look at the rear quarters. the PS isn't too bad, but has clearly had some sort of damage and is pretty rough. It was pounded out, but not well. Both sides have really bad patch jobs on the lower quarters behind the rear wheels. Not a total surprise, but certainly worse than expected. now I find that the bottom of quarters are also rotted out. More swiss cheese!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=116554&d=1571812316

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=116548&d=1571812314

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=116551&d=1571812315

So both quarter panels need to be replaced, one outside wheel well panel is dented and doesn't fit correctly, the other is marginal. So out go the outside wheel wells. If I am already going to be that far into the wheel wells, I am going to go ahead and replace both inside wheel wells to allow for wider rear tires. There go both inside wheel wells. One good note is that the rear panel where the tail lights sit appears to be in excellent condition!

Jazzman

10-23-2019, 01:54 AM

To my surprise and amazment, even the hood had significant rust damage! The underside of the very front of the hood had a lot of "swiss cheese".

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=116552&d=1571812316

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=116553&d=1571812316

I am not sure if I can (or want) to fix the hood. The lights in the hood are one of my favorite features, but that's a lot of rust in a place I really did not expect. Why the underside of the hood and not the top? If you have been playing along and keeping score, you now realize that every exterior panel except the top and the trunk lid is going to have to be replaced! Thus far I haven't found any damage at all on the trunk lid. Great! that's one piece! :(

So now I am at a crossroads: do I dump this project and get out before it eats any more of my money, or do I continue and go down the rabbit hole in an even bigger way . . . more on that possibility in my next post!

Jazzman

10-23-2019, 10:06 AM

Comment from another forum: "This is a perfect example of why we went to new bodies. Every time we get them back from being media blasted, this is what they look like. The cost of the new body is cheaper than replacing all the body panels."

Yep. I am discovering that. So what say you: Dump the project, or jump down the rabbit hole? At the end of the project, it is crystal clear that I will have a car in perfect condition and exactly as I want it, but it will also have less than half the value of what I put into it in new parts. This is a reality of this hobby and I accept that. I can go out and buy a brand new "whatever" and still spend less than I will spend to rebuild this pile of parts. I can likely go buy a completed car at Barrett Jackson for less than I will pay to rebuild this thing. If I really want a 67 mustang, would I still be better off at this point to dump the whole thing and buy a brand new fully assembled dynacorn body? A new body is almost certainly cheaper if I were to pay someone like MTF to rebuild all the panels on this car. If I am doing the work myself, I will put enormous amounts of "sweat equity" into the car, but cost will be somewhat cheaper. Is the work the real prize? Is the build process the real reward? I know that at the end of the day only I can make these decisions, but I would welcome your input. What do you think?

2bking

10-23-2019, 11:02 AM

I feel your pain. I'm not sure what cost you are looking at for replacing the rusty parts and what the budget limit might be but I'm sure your thinking there are a lot of more unknown problems instore. From the outside looking in without anything invested but some reading time, it looks to be a project that may exceed only by throwing buckets of money at it. If it were me, I would get the new body just to put a limit on the body work cost, problems, and time. Everything else will be mostly new anyway.

Alan_C

10-23-2019, 01:20 PM

I am restomoding a 1970 Mach 1, so I am interested. As a former FF Cobra builder and owner, I agree restoring a vintage Mustang is challenge. I am fortunate I do not have the level of rust you do, yet I find trying to piece together components from a number of manufacturers challenge enough. Good luck on the build, I will follow along.

Just puttering

11-10-2019, 04:04 PM

If you decide to move forward - maybe a tribute to the Green Hornet !!!

Jetfuel

11-10-2019, 09:33 PM

Is the work the real prize? Is the build process the real reward?

I think you answered your question but I see it differently.
Your work will be the real reward.

Jet

Jazzman

12-04-2019, 11:52 PM

Some time ago I came across some videos on YouTube by a guy name Bruce at JoDaddy's Garage (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbPSwCx5tdhEyOmOSn4dpzg). He has quite an amazing group of build progress videos on many different cars. The one that caught my attention was "Brooklyn Pony" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ealQFHxp4HE). I found his videos both intriguing and astounding. I encourage you to watch them, but if you don't have time, heres the short version. He keeps the A pillar, windshield, and all the unique pieces that are only in a convertible, and dumps everything else! I do mean "EVERYTHING". He then starts rebuilding from a brand new Dynacorn frame with all new parts. It will take you a couple of days of solid watching to see it all, but it is truly fascinating. I had to wonder why anyone would waste any time on such a rusted out pile of junk. However, watching his videos really inspired me regarding my own project. I really saw how each part went together, and more importantly learned some of the things that might go wrong as you build up from virtually nothing using new parts.

I have spent a lot of time evaluating my current car. At the end of the day, virtually every exterior panel except the roof, and a good number of interior panels, are rusted to the point that they must be replaced. I had to seriously examine if saving this pile of steel made any sense. Short answer: it doesn’t. Financially, it is going to cost a fortune to put her back together. But this decision is not made based upon “return on investment”. It is based upon the love of learning. The desire to create, the joy of the challenge. I have decided that despite all the reasons dump it, I am going to proceed with the project.

Now when I say “proceed”, I don’t me just rebuild her. To paraphrase a very dated TV Show, “we can rebuild her, make her better than she was. Better, Stronger, Faster” (cue “The Six Million Dollar Man” theme music). Everyone else wants an “Eleanor” Fastback. I don’t. I want a CONVERTIBLE! Yep, I am going to cut everything away and rebuild this coupe as a Convertible. No, it doesn’t make any sense. No you can’t even buy some of the parts. No, it won’t be titled as a convertible. No it won’t be original, or numbers matching, or any of the things that collectors want. But it will have what I want! At the end of the day, this Is being built purely for the joy of building.

So here we go . . .

Jazzman

12-05-2019, 12:34 AM

A few weeks ago I made my first ever journey to a "salvage" yard. It was quite an experience. It turns out that this particular salvage yard in north Phoenix was featured on one of the many reality television programs. The show didn't make it, but the yard has survived for many, many years. They have dozens of acres of parts for hundreds of different makes and models of cars. This yard has cars from 1960 to 1985, they have another yard that features cars before 1960. (Haven't been there yet, but plan to just for the experience.) I found another car to buy . . . or at least part of one!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=118517&d=1575522568

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=118519&d=1575522570

I purchased the "rear clip" from a very rusted 1967 Mustang convertible. Why? because there are a couple of parts for a convertible that simply are not made anymore. I looked everywhere I knew, and asked a lot of people that know far more than I, and none of the leads paid off. So I bought the rear clip to pull out the parts I could not buy anywhere else. As it turned out, I was able to get quite a few other parts which are available, but when you add up all their costs, I effectively got the unavailable parts for free. It took a lot of time to cut away all the stuff I would not be using and to carefully extract the parts I wanted. I took them in to the media blaster. Most of the parts came back in surprisingly good shape. The one part that was not available in any other way was in the roughest shape. It is going to take some time to graft on some additional support pieces and remake some of the water transport features. More on that later.

After all the work to put in the new front floor panels, it now is clear that I am going to have to replace the entire floor. In order to add all the structural bracing for a convertible, the floor has to go. So I discovered several pieces of good news. My skills with my plasma cutter are getting better. The floor came right out with very little work. Even better, I discovered that my spot welds are excellent! It took a lot of hard drilling to break loose all the spot welds that I had done around the perimeter of the front floor pans. While it was a lot of work, it was very good to know that the welds I am doing are really holding tightly.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=118520&d=1575522571

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=118521&d=1575522571

I placed an very large order at CJ Pony parts to get all the necessary parts to do the rear end of the car. I took advantage of their Cyber Monday sales and saved quite a bit of money. Now I am waiting for all the parts to arrive. The first pieces arrived today. It was especially nice that the first box received was the next pieces that must be installed before anything else can be done: the Inner Rockers. I likely won't get time to play with them until the weekend, but it is good to have them on hand. Perhaps even better was the second box: among other things it included the Weld/Sealant Assembly manual from Jim Osborn Reproductions. Since I don't have an actual build manual for this kind of a crazy project, having this assembly manual is great. I really can see what I am seeing on the car. There are still a couple of parts that I just can't figure out where they go, but I hope I will come across them as I proceed. I don't know when all the other parts will be here. Some are having to come "truck freight", which ain't cheap or quick. That's OK, I have more than enough to keep me busy with the inner rockers.

AZPete

12-05-2019, 11:45 AM

Thanks, Kevin, for the update. I enjoy seeing your project because I don't have the skills, nor determination, to create the dream like you are doing. Keep posting your progress!

Just puttering

12-13-2019, 08:37 PM

I finally got some of the SEMA pictures sorted and found the Green Hornet ones I took.

Maybe it will give you some ideas!

118903

Just puttering

12-13-2019, 08:39 PM

118904
118905
118906

Jazzman

12-15-2019, 01:06 AM

118904
118905
118906

Thanks!! That is indeed getting into the neighborhood!

Kevin

Jazzman

12-15-2019, 01:35 AM

In order to turn the coupe into a convertible, I have to install all the reinforcements into the coupe frame to turn it into a convertible frame. This begins (I hope!!) with the installation of the inner rockers. These major girders run all the way from the front of the frame to the back of the back of the cabin area in the original convertibles. After they are installed, the rear torque boxes are attached to the inside rockers. However, in a coupe that already has rear torque boxes installed, it is a bit more complicated. I considered just removing the existing torque boxes and installing new ones after the rockers were in place. However, the coupe frame is already factory welded in exactly where it should be. I really didn't want to mess with it. Because I will be using the MTF front frame that actually attaches to these rear torque box locations, I really did not want to take a chance on getting them in even a slightly different place. So I decided to leave the rear torque boxes where they are and make the inner rocker fit around them. This required cutting and fitting the inner rockers around the rear torque boxes. This was not easy feat!! I started with the easy part: the small section aft of the torque box.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=118946&d=1576390475

I cut off the rear section of the inner rocker after measuring three times and sleeping on it overnight! (I didn't want to screw this up!!) The basic cut was just a 90 degree cut off, but that's where the simplicity ended. I had to grind the top and bottoms to slightly different lengths, and then had to cut a slot for one piece of the rear torque box.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=118950&d=1576390477

It took quite a bit of fitting and grinding to get it to fit just right, but I got it.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=118951&d=1576390477

After drilling eight holes for spot welds, I welded this piece into place. The photo doesn't show it, but I went back and welded the inner rocker rear piece to the torque box whereever I could reach. The inner rocker is a fully attached member of the torque box.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=118955&d=1576390479

Lesson next: this one is about "weld through" primer. I had picked up a couple of cans from Napa to touch up those areas that I had to cut and grind. The inner rocker itself is already coated with "weld thru" primer material. So apparently weld thru primer has zinc or copper to conduct the weld arc. Long story short, you can weld thru this stuff, but it makes and awful sound and splatters all over the place. I don't know if napa's paint is low quality for this purpose, but I gave up on it and ended up wire brushing off all the "weld thru" primer on and around all the welds after the first dozen or so. What a mess!!

Jazzman

12-15-2019, 01:58 AM

Next I moved on to the front section of the inner rockers. This was considerably more complex. I had to cut a sweeping compound curve around the rear end of the inner rocker to fit tightly to the front and top of the rear torque boxes.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=118961&d=1576390480

Then I had to cut a rectangular hole through the firewall to allow the inner rocker to pass through the firewall on it's way to the front of the car. To make this process a bit more fun, I had to leave some flanges to weld to the cabin side of the inner rockers to firmly attach the firewall to the inner rocker.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=118957&d=1576390479

In addition, since I do not currently have a front frame on the car, I had welded a 2" square tube in place to allow me to attach the front of the car to the rotisserie. You guessed it: the square tube was exactly where the inner rocker had to be! So in order to get the rocker through, I had to cut the square tube and reattach it to the inside of the inner rocker. Lots of moving parts all at once!!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=118958&d=1576390480

After cutting, grinding, and fitting more times than I can count, I finally got it all to fit correctly. I put a boatload of spotweld holes all along the attaching flange. This inner rocker is not going anywhere!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=118960&d=1576390480

After spot welding the entire inner rocker in place, I went back and welded the rear of the rocker into the torque box. My spot welding is getting pretty good, but my line welding still leaves something to be desired. Forgive me, I'm learning!!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=118963&d=1576390481

On the drivers side front I also had to remove and replace the outside rocker, but just the front section. Thankfully, this must be a common problem, as you can buy just the front section that needs to be replaced. I had to cut away the old one, which took a bit of doing. The old piece fits under the outer rocker, but the new replacement piece fits on top of the outer rocker. I suspect that is because you would have to tear most of the A pillar area apart to get the replacement piece under the outer rocker. I got the old rotted piece cut out and back to good metal, and with a bit of encouragement got the new piece to fit into place. I did not install it yet because I had to get the inner rocker in place before i do the outer.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=118965&d=1576390482

I plan to try to install that outer rocker front piece tomorrow. It feels good to have those inner rockers in place. Now I will move on trying to fit the new MTF Rear Tubs until the floor pan arrives. I am avoiding cutting off too much structural material at this point until I know I have the entire frame back together and squared up. The rear tubs should not be a problem, as I will only be cutting out the inner wheel wells, leaving the outer half and all the quarter panels in place for now.

Jazzman

12-18-2019, 01:20 AM

While I wait for the full floor pan to arrive, I am trying to stay busy by taking small steps. I am tempted to begin cutting away everything that will be replaced. I decided not to do that until i get the new floor pan welded in. I want to make sure to keep the frame unit square. If I get it off square a bit, it could be a real pain to get it all straightened out. I am not sure how likely it is that this would happen, but since I don't know for sure, I am erring on the side of caution.

I received a box from Mustangs to Fear late last week containing a pair of their "Mini-Tubs". These tubs provide as much room for larger rear tires as you can get without completely changing the interior structure. They seem very well made. The metal seem a bit thicker than the stock sheet metal and the welds are all sharp. I watched their video on YouTube (https://youtu.be/84o8NgyrL8s) on how they suggest that these tubs get installed. The first task is to cut out the old inner wheel well and square up the opening. Once again, I learned to love my plasma cutter!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119123&d=1576647990

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119125&d=1576648025

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119124&d=1576648008

I cut around the perimeter of the old inner tub, leaving all of the outer tub for now. It will come out later, but I want to make sure I have the inner tubs in a solid location before I cut out the outer tub. (And the outter tubs have not arrived yet.) I discovered a bit of a change that I should have anticipated, but did not. As i cut the inner tub out, the weight of the upper half of the car compressed the opening that I had just cut. The tub came out, but I am absolutely sure that there is maybe 1/16"-1/8" of compression. I am not worried about it because everything that sagged will be coming off anyway.

Per MTF's instructions I then ground the edge back to create a straight line from front to back. I also measured the new tub to be sure it would fit and have enough overlap to attach it to the outer tub. Also per their instuctions, I left plenty of metal to be able to grind it back to fit correctly.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119126&d=1576648037

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119127&d=1576648054

Turns out I still needed to cut about 5/8" further back to make it fit. I wasn't going to grind that much off, so I hit it again with the plasma cutter, then ground it back again. Now the rear corner is flush with the frame rail side, and the front edge is 2.5" away from the frame rail, just like MTF suggested. (What a surprise!!) This did, however make a couple of other removals obvious. The rubber bumper attached to the frame rail had to go, and the plate that is welded to the floor to attach the outboard end of the rear seatbelts also had to go.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119122&d=1576647964

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119120&d=1576647943

By this point, I was tired, didn't want to screw it up by trying to go too far in one day, and my son had arrived to watch Star Wars movies in preparation for the new moving coming out Thursday. The first mini-tub is not quite ready for installation, but it's close enough for Jazz. I called it a good day.

Jazzman

12-31-2019, 01:07 AM

The time has come to remove everything that will not be used in the newly rebuilt convertible. This means removal of the top, the rear quarters, the rear panel, and the outer wheel houses. I began with the roof. I cut along the edge of the windshield frame. (this frame will be replaced later, but I wanted to leave enough metal to work with.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119355&d=1577065758

A few more cuts, and the roof came off completely.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119354&d=1577065737

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119349&d=1577065638

Both my wife and I agree, it looks much better already! I cut out the window rear panel, and the right quarter and outer wheelhouse.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119356&d=1577065822

In short order it was all gone:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119348&d=1577065591

I continue to find more good reasons to replace everything. Here is a hole the size of a nickel that is simply because the original installer did not fit the panels correctly.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119343&d=1577065482

Jetfuel

12-31-2019, 10:00 AM

Jazzman....Henry Ford will be proud

Jet

Jazzman

01-02-2020, 12:56 AM

Jazzman....Henry Ford will be proud

Jet

Judging by the dubious quality of the original construction, Henry Ford should be appalled! What I am doing will certainly be better than new by a wide margin!! Thanks for going along on the journey with me!

Jazzman

01-02-2020, 01:31 AM

Happy New Year! Last weekend I got the replacement floor pan installed. That thing took forever! It doesn't hurt that I am putting welds every two inches, and ever one of them has to be drilled and then buffed on both sides to clean away the excess metal shavings and the "weld thru" paint that you really can't weld through! I have long since lost count as to how many welds I have done, but I know that I have used 3/4 of my bottle of welding gas, so it's quite a few! I had to do a few adjustments to make it fit properly. I had to reshape two of the flanges at the back corners because they were too narrow to fill the space. Other than that, It went in pretty much as expected. Slow and tedious, but not particularly difficult.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119839&d=1577945129

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119840&d=1577945139

I put in the seat throne pan. This is a very heavy piece! IT forms are very strong "H" to join and reinforce the frame. This also took dozens of weld, all drilled, marked, buffed, and only then welded. I had to put a couple of bolts through the rear holes right at the top of the transmission tunnel to pull the floor pan and the seat throne pan together tightly. It worked great! That floor is very strong! after welding the plug holes, I polished down the weld flush with the pan. I had to do this because at a much later date there will be another reinforcement pan on the under side of the floor pan, directly opposite the seat throne pan. The two panels sandwich the floor pan for even more rigidity.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119841&d=1577945151

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119842&d=1577945164

While I had the car upside down and the front of the outside rocker was easily accessible, I went ahead and welded the replacement outside rocker front into place. I did all the hard work on this one a few weeks ago, so tonight was pretty simple. I just slid the piece in, clamped it, and welded it on.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119845&d=1577945203

I started trying to bold the rear light panel into place to see if the rear quarter panels were going to fit correctly. I discovered why the original panel didn't quite fit right: It was forced to fit. The new panel, when installed on the existing trunk bumper supports, actually sits about 3/8" away from the flange to which it is supposed to be joined! The existing trunk bumper supports will have to be removed and repositioned to allow the rear light panel to be installed correctly. I haven't decided if I will just buy new trunk bumper supports, or try to reuse the ones I've got.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119844&d=1577945193

wareaglescott

01-02-2020, 09:15 PM

Haven't read this in a while Kevin. Nice work. This is quite the project! Any original metal left? haha

Jazzman

01-03-2020, 07:23 PM

Haven't read this in a while Kevin. Nice work. This is quite the project! Any original metal left? haha

Not much! the rear frame from the firewall back, but not the floorpan, the A and B pillars and the dashboard, the trunk lid, and both the front and rear valances. That's it! All the rest is gone for one or more reasons. Yep, it's a bit crazy, but it is going to be so much better than new when it is done.

Jazzman

01-08-2020, 10:23 PM

I am finally getting a some time to make some progress. (And having a lot of fun too!) After doing a bit of shaving and fitting, i finally got both the outer wheel well (Dynacorn) and the inner wheel well (Mustangs to Fear) mated together and welded in place.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120331&d=1578539418

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120329&d=1578539396

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120330&d=1578539410

These MTF inner tubs are quite nice. Very well made, and really open up the space for wider tires. My one minor suggestion is that they should extend the front panel where the tub meets the inner rocker end. It definately fits, but is not long enough to cover the full rocker. I will go back later and add an additional piece of sheet metal to fully cover the inner rocker end.

I am still formulating what to do about the gap at the top of the MTF inner well where it does not match up with the outer well. I don't want to just "beat it into place" because it will look lousy. I am either going to section it to fit, or completely cut out that area of the outer well and lay in new panel to match the flat top area of the MTF well. That is another days task.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120314&d=1578539203

In order to place and fit the left wheel well pieces, I had to fit both the quarter panels and the rear tail light panel into place to make sure they all line up an fit perfectly. I am using practically every clamp I own, but was able to get all the panels in place to begin fitting and marking.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120328&d=1578539359

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120327&d=1578539350

It is pretty exciting to see the shape coming into view!!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120326&d=1578539337

Jazzman

01-08-2020, 10:53 PM

This is where the fitment issues began. On the right side, everything seemed to pretty much slide in to place. Just a few minor adjustments, and viola! But when I went to fit the left side, i had to fight the fitment where the front bottom of the quarter panel meets the top of the outer rocker panel.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120322&d=1578539282

On the right hand side where the rear end of the quarter panel meets the trunk fall off panel, the bottom of the trunk side lined up perfectly with the seam on the inside of the lower rear quarter panel.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120324&d=1578539307

However, in order to get the front lower seam on the quarter panel to be straight and tight, the lower rear of the quarter panel ends up about 3/8" too high.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120323&d=1578539294

To make matters even more confusing, the rear light panel had to be adjusted 3/8"+ too LOW in order to make the previous items line up well. (to recap, the rear panel is 3/8" too LOW and the rear of the Left quarter panel appear to be 3/8" too HIGH. How can they both be true? You see my problem!!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120319&d=1578539250

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120316&d=1578539221

The right side of the rear light panel also had to be moved down just a about 3/8" to make the left side fit. The right quarter still seems to fit fine, perhaps a bit better. The curves of the very tip of the quarter fit even more nicely into the edge of the rear light panel. The center point of the rear light panel matches up perfectly.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120318&d=1578539240

So now I need your help. It appears that I can weld the rear light panel to the frame at the 3/8" low point that it seems to be at. Somehow this doesn't seem right. Literally as I write this, I have a thought as to why the rear panel doesn't line up. The entire car is still on the rotisserie, attached only at the very front of the firewall area directly to the inner rocker panel (which isn't going to bend!) and at only six inches forward of the very back of the frame. Is is possible that the frame is flexing 3/8" from the rear torque boxes to the back of the frame? Do I need to take the frame off the rotisserie and support it with jack stands only at either end of the inner/outer rockers, allowing the rear frame aft of the rear torque boxes to return to it's standard (lower) position? Is there another issue that I might be missing?

Jazzman

01-08-2020, 11:18 PM

Final question. The outer wheel well that I received for the right side is definitely a Dynacorn item, said so right on the sticker. It was clearly a well made piece, well formed, sharp edges and smooth curves, a nice coat of "can't really weld-thru" primer on it. For whatever reason, the outer wheel well that I received for the left side is clearly a lesser quality piece. It is primered black instead of weld-thru silver, the corners were not as sharp, the edges were more ragged, and one flange wasn't even in the right place. In order to fit correctly, the flange had to be re-bent to line up correctly. All this is manageable i guess, but i noticed that while the Dynacorn piece is a nice round shape, the black piece has a flat spot in the curve near the rear end.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120314&d=1578539203

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120315&d=1578539212

Does it make any difference? Should I get a Dynacorn part for the left to match the right? Once I get it all welded to the inner tub, will it even show up or matter?

wareaglescott

01-11-2020, 06:00 PM

Kevin
As I was reading this I was thinking to myself every time I watch one of these car shows like *****in rides or whatever when they chop a top or work on a convertible they always weld in all these cross braces to keep the frame from flexing. Then I got down to your post about things not lining up quite right. I cant really visualize what the issue is but do you think you need some interior cross bracing of some sort while you progress to help keep everything lined up properly? Doesn't the heat from welding also cause things to move and warp a bit?

Fascinating project. Every time I think I have lost my mind for the scope of my 911 project I like to come check in here to remind myself you are 1000% more off the slippery slope! hahaha

Jazzman

01-19-2020, 10:36 AM

OK, at the moment, I am seeing photos in this thread. Would you please "like" this particular post to let me know that you can see photos in my previous posts? If you can't see the photos, please reply directly to this thread.
Thanks for the help.

Jazzman

01-23-2020, 02:18 AM

A very trusted adviser on the MTF forum was concerned that I not get everything welded into place before I confirm that the doors were going to fit. Since I had not moved either the A or B pillars, I hoped that the doors would fit, but I had not ordered them yet. I didn't want to store them. But based upon his concern, I decided to order the doors. First impression, wow, I really got them quickly! I ordered them Monday, received them today! Second impression: I was impressed with the nice black protective coating on the outside, and quite disappointed that there was almost no coating at all on the inside of the door. The very reason I had to replace the doors was because the originals had no rust protection on the inside of the door! I had hoped that we had evolved a bit in the past 50 years. Apparently not in this particular area. I have been vacillating about whether to spend the money to have the entire car powder coated inside and out. I am pretty sure the poor protection for the doors pushes me back toward powder coating.

This evening I searched around and found the hinges and the bolts for the doors. It is still going to take some adjustment of the bolts to get the door to gap correctly, but I am pleased to say that my plan of leaving the A & B pillars in placed worked like a charm! The doors fit perfectly right out of the box.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=121189&d=1579762731

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=121188&d=1579762713

Inside the car between the two rear wheel houses is the rear seat mount panel. It is set in place and held with a couple of clamps, but not welded in. Now that the doors appear to fit, and the since the rear quarters already fit, i believe that I will go ahead and weld in this large piece. (It will be great to get it out of the way!!) Over the weekend I had to change the flanges that previously were attached to the sides of the wheel wells. Since my rear inner tubs are wider than stock, there was no room for the traditional piece that went between the rear seat panel and the wheel well. I bent the flanges flat, then trimmed them to fit snugly between the wheel wells. I then used some 3/4" angle irons to add new points to weld to the wheel wells. I thought I had taken photos of this process, but apparently I didn't. Sorry I didn't document this step. I plan to take the seat mount panel out once more to check everything, and I will try to take some shots of the adjustments at that point.

Jazzman

03-21-2020, 08:05 PM

While a large number of people panic from this media driven virus scare, I decided to use the time wisely: work on the Mustang, and catch up on my posts on the forums. A lot of my time for the past couple of months has been taken up with business and family responsibilities. My sister is through chemo infusion #10 of 12. All is going exceptionally well thus far. Praise God!! I have traveled a bit for business, but am glad to be home. Progress has been slow on the Mustang, but rewarding. When I last updated this thread, I was working on installing the seat back unit that separates the cockpit from the trunk. I had to do some creative adaptation to make the unit fit correctly. There was not room between the deeper inner wheel housings and the seat back assembly for the typical pieces. There was a flange built into the assembly that was supposed to be welded to an inner piece, and that inner piece was to be welded to the original wheel well. I re-bent this flange to be flat, and then cut it to fit tightly between the wheel wells. I then welded some 3/4" L material to the end of the newly fitted cuts to create a new flange. I finally could weld the entire seat back unit into place.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124486&d=1584831596

The seat back unit fit perfectly against the original upper floor pan between the new floor and the trunk. I clamped it into place and welded it in.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124487&d=1584831612

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=121188&d=1579762713

at the top of both the outer wheel housings, you can see that there is a large opening where the flat area of the inner wheel house does not match the arch of the outer wheel house. I could just pound it flat like ford did originally, but no, that is not me. I wanted it to be nice and neat. I started by cutting this extra area out approximately where the top of the inner wheel house would meet. I left it a bit tall, then ground it down until I could get the straight edge to match up flat on the inner wheel house and on the outer edge of the outer wheel house.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124488&d=1584831639

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124489&d=1584831666

I then made a cardboard form and cut out a piece of metal to fit the hole. It took a bit of shaping and adjustment, but I got the new cover cut and fitted. I welded it into place.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124490&d=1584831688

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124493&d=1584831754

I don't have a photo of it, but I turned the car upside down and fully welded all the seams where the inner and outer wheel wells meet from the underside. I want to make sure that all these seams are completely sealed. Now that it is fully welded, I will grind it flat, then seal the entire inner wheel house with under-body coat. I haven't done that yet.

Jazzman

03-21-2020, 09:24 PM

This one piece, the drip rail, is the reason I had to buy a rusted entire back half of a 67 Mustang just so I could tear it apart, throw 80% of it away, and keep this piece and a few others.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124496&d=1584831854

Today I started painting it with POR 15. But there is a lot of story that goes before this photo. Unfortunately most of the photos of this phase seem to have gotten lost. I can't find a whole series of photos. Oh well, you will have to use your imagination. This piece entered my life looking like this:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124504&d=1584840060

That drip rail between the red lines is the only piece (thus far) for which no one makes a replacement part. After taking the rusty hulk hulk apart. I had this drip rail sand blasted. It was in rough shape. One of the channels that carries rainwater away from the interior of the car was completly rusted through. Several sections had significant "swiss cheese" rust through. In order to maintain the overall integrity of the piece, I cut away only as much metal as I had to in order to get back to solid metal. It was thin, but it was solid. I then custom made splints that fully encase the lower half of the side rails. (the rear cross member area was in a bit better condition.) You can see the weld lines where I welded the splint to the underside of the drip rail. (keep in mind that the drip rail is upside down on my work bench.)

Fixing all the rust and damage on the drip rail took a lot of time. Now that it is done, I want to protect this piece as best I can. This piece is perhaps the most exposed yet under appreciated piece on the entire car. No one notices it, but when it rains, it carries off all the water that gets under the convertible top and channels it down the sides of the car inside the area where the rear quarter windows live. This piece, and where the water is drained, are both areas that tend to rust out. I want to do all I can to protect them both. I have been going back and forth considering powder coating the entire car, using some sort of epoxy primer on everything, or . . . who knows what! The problem with all these coatings is that they simply cannot get to the areas that need protection most after the car is all welded together. The only way to protect them is to coat them BEFORE the outer skin is welded into place. This requires "paint as you go". When I built the Cobra, I was truly amazed by the quality and adhesion of POR 15. This paint is simply amazing at protecting against further rust. I decided I would use POR 15 on all the hidden areas of the car where no one would ever see anyway! The downside is that POR 15 sticks to everything, and you can't get it off your skin. (I can't stand wearing latex gloves.) I researched POR 15 on their website, and determined that the Silver paint had the most filler built in, and would leave a better overall look than the gloss black (the most common color used.) I ordered up the metal prep and 1 quart of the paint. POR 15 cures due to contact to water, not air. Even though we have had more rain than usual this winter, our humidity is still much lower than most parts of the country. It would cure slower because of this fact.

I tried the metal prep on the drip rail. Since everything had been sand blasted, and the new metal was already cleaned by me, I wasn't sure that the metal prep was really necessary. After using it, I am still not sure. Metal prep is a euphemism for a Phosphoric Acid solution! Keeping it off my skin was very difficult. Keeping it off my clothing was impossible. I did my best to stay clean, but it got on the front of my shirt. It discolored the shirt and began to burn my skin. Needless to say, that shirt is gone and I took a shower! Bottom line, on perfectly clean metal, I didn't see that it made a lot of difference in terms of adhesion. Clearly on rusted metal it works very well. There were a couple small surface rust areas, and they cleaned up right away. THe stuff works, but be careful using it.

I put a first coat on the drip rail, the insides of the rear quarters at the bottom, and all the metal that would be covered and inaccessible after the rear quarter is installed.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124499&d=1584831904

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124500&d=1584831918

This is the area that the drip rail will drain water if it gets in. This is the area that I fully coated with to deal with both primary water drainage as well as splashing.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124498&d=1584831885

It has now been 5 hours, and I am going to try to do a second coat. The directions say to wait 2-6 hours. It has been drying so slowly, I had time to come in an write these posts. Good use of time, I thought!!

About 90 minutes later . . .

Finished the second coat. Used 1/2 Pint less than the full quart today. Coated all the important parts so I can now finally weld up the drip rail and permanently install the rear quarter panels. Don't think I will get that done tomorrow. I want to let the POR 15 fully cure before I start messing with it. Some thoughts on Silver POR 15 vs Black POR 15. The black leaves a very consistent, powder coat like finish. The silver leaves a very nice finish, but it shows every run, sag, or imperfection in the underlying metal. Since none of this will ever be seen again, it really doesn't matter for my purposes, but just in case you decide to use it, beware. The metal flake that makes it "silver" also makes it prone to showing imperfections, brush lines (though not many), drips, or sags. I am very pleased with the finish, though I wouldn't want to stake my reputation on the perfection of the paint job. This is about protection against rust. I am absolutely sure that this is far more protection than the original car ever had in all these areas.

I did coat the interior of the rear quarters in those areas that are prone to water damage.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124524&d=1584849933

wareaglescott

03-22-2020, 05:07 PM

good update Kevin. I think you are more crazy every time I read this thread! hahaha

Jazzman

07-24-2020, 12:10 AM

I can't believe it has been four months since my last update. 2020 is turning out to be the longest decade of my life! You would think I had plenty of time to work on this beast. You would be wrong! I can't remember working harder in my life. Ok, maybe not really, but my memory is going, and I sure can't remember the last time I worked this hard. I can't even remember all the steps that have been done in the last four months. First, a short list of what has gone been done:

The rear quarter panels are in place. They look pretty good. All the welds still need to be smoothed out.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132323&d=1595565686

The rear deck lid has been set into place. It is not actually attached, but the fitment lines are as close to perfect as I can ever hope for.

I ended up fully removing the front cowl, both upper and lower sections. I decided that I had come this far, and I didn't want to leave this one last piece of known rusted garbage on the otherwise rust free new car. I am glad I did. It was more rusted than I thought. The new one is in place, and almost fully welded in place. I ran out of welding gas, so I stopped before I finished.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132324&d=1595566335

I received the full front and rear frames from Mustangs to Fear. Great pieces of kit! very well made, fit perfectly. The front and rear frame pieces join together at the point where the rear suspension attaches, and create a fully end to end frame. Of course, all the parts that would be impossible to paint or powder coat after attachment were painted with POR 15 to prevent rust where I could not see it.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132326&d=1595566505
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132325&d=1595566420

When I ordered the full frame from Mustangs to Fear, I also ordered the front radiator support and the full engine bay panels. The next piece to be installed is the Radiator support so that I can fit the engine panels. The problem is I think I missed a part. The radiator support panel is 1/2" too narrow to be fitted between the frame rails. In the MTF photos that I have been able to find, It looks like there is a large front rail that fits between the front frames and across the triangular jack pad in the middle front of the frame. . However, I didn't get this piece (if there is one) and I am not sure how to fit the radiator support. Suggestions?
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132327&d=1595566988
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132328&d=1595566997

Jazzman

08-02-2020, 11:09 PM

I was informed that i was, indeed, missing the front crossmember. I ordered it, and Rich Smith of Mustangs to Fear sent me some photos of what it was supposed to look like. (Thank you Rich!!) So I installed it according to the photos and here is where I am:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132902&d=1596425795

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132889&d=1596425458

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132890&d=1596425470

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132895&d=1596425691

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132901&d=1596425783

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132899&d=1596425745

Now here is the problem: I started clamping the radiator support and the engine panels into place to check fitment. Instead of the measured length of the 44.5" from the corner of the cowling to the front of the radiator support I have a whopping . . .

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132898&d=1596425729

43 3/16"! Why am i over 1.25" too short?!! What am I missing?

Jazzman

08-02-2020, 11:17 PM

Here's a few more photos of the mock up:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132894&d=1596425514

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132892&d=1596425491

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132897&d=1596425719

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132896&d=1596425703

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132893&d=1596425502

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132891&d=1596425481

Does this help?

Mark Eaton

08-03-2020, 07:45 AM

Looking good Kevin! Keep it up!

Mark

Gumball

08-03-2020, 05:47 PM

Kevin,

Absolutely epic build - your metal working skills are really shining!

I'm sure there are times when it seems you're pretty far down that creek, but you have truly shown what's possible when we put our mind (and hands) into a project.

I'm going to continue following along, but I've sworn-off rusty cars for the time being, so hopefully won't soon be joining you in panel replacement.

Keep the updates coming!!!!

Jazzman

08-03-2020, 07:40 PM

Jazzman

08-08-2020, 04:49 PM

Here is what I am am trying to figure: What is the base length of the frame rail from the point where the frame rail meets the firewall to end of the square channel? Like this:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=133242&d=1596922122

(yes, I know my yard stick isn't long enough. It is for illustration purposes only.) So here is what I found. PS:

Here:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=133238&d=1596922073

To Here:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=133239&d=1596922083

The answer, already known by the observant, is 46".

What about the DS?

Here:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=133240&d=1596922094

To Here:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=133241&d=1596922105

You guessed it: 44 5/8".

Now the difference in lengths doesn't concern me much. The firewall very well may be 1 3/8" further forward on the drivers side than on the passengers. It doesn't look like that much, but the firewall fits snuggly on the frame, so I am not particularly worrried about it. What I can't yet determine is "are these the correct lengths for the frame rails for either side? The front cross member is 1.75" over the frame rail at the point where it attaches to the frame rails. I could move it forward 0.75", maybe even 1.0", but it would be well forward of where it appears that it should be based upon the MTF photos. Furthermore, I can only move it forward 3/8" before the tab on the crossmember meets the end of the frame side extension on the front. If I were to move the cross member even 0.75" forward, the tab would be well forward of the end of the frame side extension, but conceivably could Still be welded on. If I tried to move the cross member a full inch forward, the tab will be entirely forward of the end of the side extension, and could not be welded to anything. So to get back to the original, key question: What length are the frame rails suppose to be from the firewall to the end of the 3" Square tubing?

One other thought: Which direction are the top and bottom flanges supposed to face on the radiator support? I have them both facing the back of the car. Should they be pointing forward instead? This would pick up a full inch on the original measurement, but would not change the location of the radiator support panel, and thus it would not change the location of the side engine panels relative to the front suspension components.

Jazzman

01-24-2021, 09:06 AM

To everything there is a season. The past five months have been some of the hardest of my life. My father died on September 19th. He did NOT die of Covid, he died of medical indifference. He was in excellent and improving health four days before he went into the hospital. Because of Covid, he was ignored for four days and none of his family was allowed into the hospital to speak for him. After they finally did an exploratory surgery, the doctors discovered his appendix had ruptured. He had a raging septic infection. He never came out of the coma.

I never built either of my cars FOR my father, but he was proud of my tenacity and of the work that I had done on these projects. Now that he has Graduated, I have lost the desire to continue building the mustang. I don’t doubt I can do it, I simply am not getting enough joy out of this project. I have decided that if someone else wants to finish this project, it is time for me to pass the torch.

If you have found this post, you already know that this car began life as a 1967 Mustang Coupe. After media blasting, it became apparent that almost every exterior exposed sheet metal surface had sufficient rust damage to warrant complete replacement.

The following parts (and others) were completely removed:
• Both Front fenders
• Both doors
• Both rear Quarter panels
• The entire floor pan
• The rear taillight panel
• Entire front Frame
• All Engine bay panels
• Firewall
• Upper and lower cowling
• Torque box

The following items have been replaced or added to the car at this stage of construction: Some parts were required to turn the coupe into a convertible.
• New rear quarter panels (2)
• New doors (2)
• New inner rocker panels (2)
• New Dynacorn full Floor panel
• New outer rear wheel houses (2)
• New Mustangs to Fear (MTF) inner rear wheel tubs (2)
• New Dynacorn Front Seat Platform
• New Outside Front rocker panel
• “B” pillar to Inner rocker reinforcement supports (2)
• Rear Seat mount panel: This piece was taken out of a salvaged Mustang rear clip, media blasted, interior areas primed for protection.
• Convertible Drip rail: This piece cannot be purchased as new, so it had to be taken out of the Mustang rear clip. It was also media blasted and primed on all sides for protection. It is far better than it was when it was new!!
• New Dynacorn Rear Fender Aprons (2) (trunk drop off panels, near the rear quarter panels)
• New Mustangs to Fear (MTF) full front frame with Coyote Engine Mounts: This amazing piece ties the front and rear frame sections creating a full end to end frame!
• New MTF Rear frame rails to accommodate watts link rear suspension.

Items which I have already purchased but have not yet installed:
• MTF full engine panels
• MTF upper engine panel rails with stamped VIN number
• MTF front Radiator support panel
• New front Fender panels
• MTF Watts Link Rear Suspension, Shocks, Coilovers, and Hardware
• New Left and Right Torque Boxes
• Exterior seat reinforcement support pans (two pairs, it’s a long story!!)

Original parts that I have but are not yet installed: almost all metal parts are media blasted (I later found a couple small ones that I missed.)
• Front seats – need recovering
• Rear seats – need recovering
• Assorted trim
• Headlight buckets
• Glove box lid
• Front lower valance
• Rear lower valance
• Steering column
• Drive Shaft, Gas tank
• Trunk lid – the one exterior piece with no rust!!
• Window mechanisms for all windows.
• At least five large tubs of assorted smaller parts. Some of the parts were bagged and tagged as I removed them from the car. Other were already off the car when I purchased it.
• There are more parts, but I can’t see them right now! If they are for this car, you get everything I have!

I also have a FoMoCo Welding and Sealant manual with drawings and welding instruction for every welded part on the entire car!

The car is currently mounted on a rotisserie. The rotisserie can be purchased for an additional price with the car, or will be sold separately once the car is sold.

The sheer volume of entirely new parts will ultimately turn this 67 rust bucket into a brand new car, far better than the original in many ways. If you are interest in this project, lets talk. I know what I spent on the car, I know what I would like to get out of it, but I also want it to go to the right person. Contact me directly at FlipTop@CamelbackWealth.com.

Kevin