Bonding fastener recommendations for Whitby louvers? [Archive]

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Paparazzi

07-07-2018, 04:55 PM

Just ordered the Whitby side louvers - thinking that I'll use something like these to mount them.

http://www.npfasteners.com/composites/master-plate-stud-pr.htm

Everywhere I've seen have been packs of 50 or more. Figure I'll epoxy them to the body - any recommendation on size or supplier?

J.

BEAR-AvHistory

07-07-2018, 07:15 PM

Have the PR style. Got 8 from McMaster IIRC

Papa

07-07-2018, 07:37 PM

Got mine from McMaster-Carr: https://www.mcmaster.com/#97590A569

edwardb

07-07-2018, 09:42 PM

X3 McMaster for those. Work great. BTW, epoxy isn't your best choice for the vinylester body. 3M HSRF (High Strength Repair Filler) is a compatible vinylester product and is bulletproof for this and other adhesive/repair tasks on your body. Not cheap unfortunately. I get it at Amazon.

Fixit

07-08-2018, 06:24 AM

ditto on the 3M HSRF

#46014 Gallon
#46013 Quart
#46012 Pint

And as Paul said, it's not cheap.

DavidW

07-09-2018, 09:31 AM

Yup, McMaster-Carr and 3M HSRF works great.

Gumball

07-09-2018, 11:13 AM

I know that others have used HSRF and other fillers as a bonding agent, but they are just what the name says... fillers. If you're looking for a strong bond, then use a body adhesive.

For my ********** louver brackets, I used a two-part adhesive from Norton called "SpeedGrip." You put the dual tube in a purpose made gun and it does the mixing for you.

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab15/CCRsAC/IMG_20130712_0753581_zps293900bd.jpg (http://s845.photobucket.com/user/CCRsAC/media/IMG_20130712_0753581_zps293900bd.jpg.html)

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab15/CCRsAC/SpeedGrip%20Adhesive_zpsfbozjogv.jpg (http://s845.photobucket.com/user/CCRsAC/media/SpeedGrip%20Adhesive_zpsfbozjogv.jpg.html)

edwardb

07-09-2018, 12:48 PM

I know that others have used HSRF and other fillers as a bonding agent, but they are just what the name says... fillers. If you're looking for a strong bond, then use a body adhesive.

For my ********** louver brackets, I used a two-part adhesive from Norton called "SpeedGrip." You put the dual tube in a purpose made gun and it does the mixing for you.

I haven't used the Norton product, so can't offer any comparison. I have no doubt it's an excellent product. Maybe it is better and stronger. But for the record, I've used HSRF repeatedly. It's extremely strong. Yes, it's called a filler. But that makes it sound like Rage or whatever. It's vinylester resin and chopped glass. Properly applied (e.g. surface of the body roughed up) I'm confident the stud would break off the perforated base before it would separate from the body. I know of others who have successfully used it for much heavier duty applications like hidden body mounts.

Mark Reynolds

07-09-2018, 04:16 PM

4 squares of industrial velcro has worked fine for me.

j.miller

07-09-2018, 08:11 PM

SOOOOOOO, I'll be the turd in the punch bowl. 20 years and I have mounted all the ones I do with 30 cents worth of silicone. Never had any fall off, have done repairs on wrecked car with the louvers still hanging on. I get the whole thing of maxing out each step of the build but I don't know anyone who takes their louvers out to clean them....it' sounds good but it just don't happen....Velcro, works the first time but after that the louvers pull ALL the Velcro off the body. SO, you can go $20 brackets and HSRF or 30 cents of the same SILLYCONE YOU BEEN USING.....jus sayin. BUT WHAT DO I KNOW.....I'M FREEKIN NUTS !!!!...da Bat

mikeinatlanta

07-09-2018, 08:17 PM

Anybody want me to get all scientific and chemical or just let the debate go on without substantiation to all the claims? :)

edwardb

07-10-2018, 06:09 AM

Anybody want me to get all scientific and chemical or just let the debate go on without substantiation to all the claims? :)

Not hanging tiles on the space shuttle here. This is pretty light duty stuff. Sharing experience with builds that have been completed and driven and what has worked over time. Observation (empirical evidence) counts.

But I'm guessing you will edumacate us.

mikeinatlanta

07-10-2018, 06:51 AM

Not hanging tiles on the space shuttle here. This is pretty light duty stuff. Sharing experience with builds that have been completed and driven, and what has worked over time. Observation (empirical evidence) counts.

But I'm guessing you will edumacate us.
Agree, and only if you want me to.

flynntuna

07-10-2018, 10:45 AM

I'm interested so long as I don't need a doctorate to understand it.:rolleyes:
Keep it a basic 101 course so us knuckle draggers can understand it;)

Derald Rice

07-10-2018, 01:14 PM

since I have used both sillycone and the studs...............

As the Freaking Nutty Professor guy from Kalifonia said......" Sillycone is cheap and holds very well". I used it for 15 years,and never had a failure, but every time I had to remove the vents, it was a hassle to re-align them to the same posiition.

Then just last winter while the engine was out, I used EdwardB's method. I can now remove and replace the vents and they will always index back in same position. Here is the write-up that I followed, (see page 4, post #112) http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/299597-mk4-7750-build-progress-update-4.html

Either method will work.

I will always trust real world experience over theory any day of the week.

rich grsc

07-10-2018, 02:56 PM

My theory is that "real world experience" doesn't apply to Internet forums full of opinions.

Derald Rice

07-10-2018, 04:32 PM

My theory is that "real world experience" doesn't apply to Internet forums full of opinions.

Yes. there is an absolute need for a BS filter, but there are some opinions here that I totally trust. And most of my trusted opinions are from members who I have met in person.

EDIT: I just realized what I have stated above sounds just like the fake news when the story credit goes to "A trusted un-named source." I apologize.

j.miller

07-10-2018, 04:51 PM

HEY ! If they put a "BS" filter on...….I'll never get an edge in word wise !

Derald Rice

07-10-2018, 05:07 PM

HEY ! If they put a "BS" filter on...….I'll never get an edge in word wise !

Dont worry, those with "CHALLENGES" will get a free pass

Jeff Kleiner

07-10-2018, 05:09 PM

Miller, Rice, Rich... pipe down you guys...this was about to become one of those "smartest guy in the room" threads. I just love those :)

Jeff

Derald Rice

07-10-2018, 07:16 PM

Just when a BONDING moment starts to develop the hall monitor steps in. I think I hear Lacy calling your name.

rich grsc

07-10-2018, 09:36 PM

Damn I just love these hard right turn threads.

Avalanche325

07-11-2018, 06:10 PM

Look! A squirrel!

I have a L shaped piece of aluminum on top and bottom.

I started with industrial Velcro. The two sides of it stick together and stay that way. The adhesive to the body did not hold up for me. I do have bedliner on the inside. I still have velcro for bracket to louver.
I glassed the bracket on. Held very well. Once when removing a louver for access, the fiberglass cracked and one bracket became a little loose. It was obviously too thin.
Drilled some holes in the bracket and put it on with HSRF, which I had laying around. The world will end before if comes off.

Avalanche325

07-11-2018, 06:12 PM

j.miller

07-11-2018, 09:31 PM

rich grsc

07-11-2018, 10:05 PM

Squirrel, what about moose?

BEAR-AvHistory

07-12-2018, 11:51 AM

WOULDN'T CHA KNOW IT ! Someone says "Look! A squirrel!" I go get my 1200FPS Pellet gun. come back to bag some good eats and we're talkin about louvers again...…..you guys need to stay focused.....AND WHO DIED AND MADE KLEINER BOSS !!! I'M TELLIN MY MOM !!!!

Use a high velocity pellet gun to whack squirrels off the bird feeders but never considered eating the Tree Rats. 3 years on & the Velcro is still holding the grills & the McMaster mounts are still in the "to-do" draw with a few other things. Getting lazy in my old age but will kick myself it they fall off - body colored.

Dave Howard

07-12-2018, 03:11 PM

I hope Paparazzi got he answer he was looking for. Need to be careful with these forums and the information within. Opinions can't be quantified and the information verified. I was kinda looking forward to the science discussion from mikeinaltlanta, but it appears it got shut down. Pity. This thread should have been a 2 entry post.
More opinions....The FFR manual isn't going to steer you down a squirrel hole (had to get that in). So I used $0.25 of silicone and the side vents are SECURE. I just didn't see the need or advantage of deviating from the manual instructions and going to the effort of bolting them on. Not any more secure. Not any more functional. Not any more attractive.

HAHA, and Jeff, good point about the "smartest guy in the room" contest. But then we already know who's the winner of that rooster fight.

Paparazzi

07-12-2018, 10:28 PM

Plenty of answers to my original question - I'll probably go with HSRF, although $20 for a one-shot SpeedGrip doesn't seem too bad if it's really that good.

I've been relaxing with my popcorn reading the thread and waiting for mikeintatlanta to give us the nerd answer. And I've been here long enough to know that we don't take ourselves too seriously.

mikeinatlanta

07-13-2018, 12:21 AM

Folks sure get wound up about a little nerdieness (is that a word?). Nobody ever claimed that a louver or wiring stud is life and death critical, but some guys do enjoy the whys of the many products out there. I have to admit that while I do understand the chemicals, I don't understand anybody taking offense at people discussing them, so please forgive if my nerdy posting is offensive to some.

Story truncated to the point of losing some technical accuracy, so please forgive:
VERY GENERALLY SPEAKING

Epoxy will bond fairly well with vinylester, however, epoxies don't generally play well with esters and can cause issues with subsequent application of esters properly curing. Epoxy resin and hardener require exact ratios for all of part A to crosslink with part B. Any excess of either leaves uncured material in the cured resin that will do the harm to and inhibit cure of the ester. Hand mixed epoxy is worse due to inaccurate ratio (jb weld squeezed out of tubes), but modern mix guns like 3M automix are much less an issue due to more exact ratios leaving far less material not crosslinked. Most epoxy adhesives are pretty hard and can have peel strength issues when bonding something rigid to something flexible. All that said, the modern automotive epoxy adhesives are amazing products.

Vinylester is a pretty amazing resin and we should be grateful FFR uses it. Most don't realize just how much of an upgrade it is over polyester used on pretty much every other kit car. Regardless, there are no vinylester based adhesives on the market that I am aware of. HSRF is the only vinylester based repair/filler that I'm aware of. It is perfect for areas getting subsequent rework. Bond strength to the body is as strong as the body if properly prepped. Unless you mix your own, it is the only structural filler out there 100% compatible with an FFR body. Downside of this material is that it lacks the ultimate bond strength to metals such as stud bases or hinge bases. Lightly loaded it is great, but the heavier the load the greater the disadvantage of HSRF. It's a good option for the vast majority of bonding done on an FFR body, but far from the strongest.

Least used are urethane based adhesives. Used in OE automotive and aerospace applications where solid brackets and such are bonded to flexible fiber reinforced plastics (fancy fiberglass). While it lacks the ultimate strength of Epoxy, it has remarkable peel strength and flexibility. It is the best bonding agent when bonding something rigid to something flexible. If you plan on lifting your car by your louver studs this is your stuff. Downside of urethane is it doesn't take paint or other finishing materials very well at all. So while you bond will be super strong and withstand all the vibration you can throw at it, the paint over it will look like ***. If you bond something with urethane and require subsequent rework, you will need to remove all of the urethane.

Last would be the entire range of sealers used as bonding agents. Cool, whatever works for you.

What did I do you ask? As usual, something completely different, totally unnecessary, over the top, and using filler I made myself.
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