Meindl Mk IV Build - Graduation

[PeteMeindl]

Looking good! I actually had the shorty headers installed outside the car - made it a little tighter but still installed with not real issues. Sure looks nice with the mill in place, right?

Yeah! It does look good with the engine in there - really feels like a big step forward! :)

[Fixit]

Great Progress... Isn't it cool to go through that "It ain't gonna fit... no way... too big... Holy Crap! It's in there!"

[PeteMeindl]

Great Progress... Isn't it cool to go through that "It ain't gonna fit... no way... too big... Holy Crap! It's in there!"

Ha! Yeah, you're exactly right! :) Thanks, John.

[PeteMeindl]

Hi guys. This weekend, we are trying to connect the rigid fuel lines to the fuel regulator using the flexible fuel lines supplied with the kit. These flexible lines seem to fit well going into the regulator, but they don't seem to fit the rigid fuel lines at all - on the fuel intake line, the flexible line is too large and on the one for the fuel return, the flex line is too small. Has anyone else run into this issue? Did you go buy different fittings for the rigid lines? Here's a look at what we're doing. Here are the fittings on the rigid lines:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106730&d=1557008715

Here are the fittings on the flex lines we're trying to fit to the rigid lines.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106731&d=1557008728
We are unscrewing and taking off the ends of the fittings on the flex lines as well as that little plastic ring.

Any help on what to do to connect those flexible lines to the rigid lines would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, guys!

[GTBradley]

Hey Pete, great to see you got it in there! It’ll be running in no time. It’s nice to have a fellow Coyote builder at nearly the same stage. I started mine last weekend and let me tell ya, car nutz come out of the woodwork when they hear it! It’s the best part. Neighbors rarely talk around here, but if the weather is good and there’s a project like this?...Well, it’s just a lot of fun. I’m even contemplating starting a car gathering at the pool for our neighborhood.

[PeteMeindl]

We tried installing our driveshaft but the transmission was too far down for the driveshaft to spin unimpeded. This seems to be a common problem and we found an easy fix via a set of spacers from summit racing. We installed them to lift the transmission up a bit. The arrow below points to the spacer.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=107783&d=1558575467

Then we were able to install the driveshaft:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=107784&d=1558575477

[initiator]

Hi Pete - I think most folks use 1.5" of lift at the TKO600 supports. I used 1/4" thick Aluminum from Home Depot and made a stack of 6. Haven't had the chance to see how well that aligns with the differential yet, but that's the lift I've seen others use for Coyote/TKO600/3-link.

How much lift did your Summit spacers give?

[PeteMeindl]

Hi Pete - I think most folks use 1.5" of lift at the TKO600 supports. I used 1/4" thick Aluminum from Home Depot and made a stack of 6. Haven't had the chance to see how well that aligns with the differential yet, but that's the lift I've seen others use for Coyote/TKO600/3-link.

How much lift did your Summit spacers give?

Hi Initiator,
Happy memorial day weekend! The summit spacers don't give as much lift as your 6 aluminum spacers - they give the transmission about 3/4 of an inch of lift. It seems to be enough clearance for us as far as i can tell so far. You're solution sounds like a good one as well. Here's a link to the summit ones in case anyone is interested:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ivp-tcb-tko/overview/

[edwardb]

Hi Initiator,
Happy memorial day weekend! The summit spacers don't give as much lift as your 6 aluminum spacers - they give the transmission about 3/4 of an inch of lift. It seems to be enough clearance for us as far as i can tell so far. You're solution sounds like a good one as well. Here's a link to the summit ones in case anyone is interested:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ivp-tcb-tko/overview/

That should be about right. I've found 3/4-inch is the right amount for the TKO. Both solid axle and IRS.

[initiator]

That should be about right. I've found 3/4-inch is the right amount for the TKO. Both solid axle and IRS.

Gack! Teach me to rely on memory at this age. Sorry, Pete - sure didn't mean to mislead you. I'll have to go back and check my sources, but the proof is in the driveline alignment (and u-joint angles).

EDIT - My mistake was that I used 1/8" Aluminum instead of 1/4". Six of these makes 0.75" height, which matches the experience of others. Sorry about that.

[PeteMeindl]

Gack! Teach me to rely on memory at this age. Sorry, Pete - sure didn't mean to mislead you. I'll have to go back and check my sources, but the proof is in the driveline alignment (and u-joint angles).

Ha! :) You weren't misleading at all! I always appreciate your thoughts and advice!

[PeteMeindl]

This weekend we made some progress on the radiator, both attaching the top part of the radiator to the chassis, as well as hooking up some of the hoses between the engine and the radiator. Man, it took all of my strength to get those steel tubes into the rubber hoses! Whew! I wasn't sure if we were going to get them to fit... but i think it worked out in the end.

Here's the hose going to the upper opening on the radiator:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=107994&d=1559095743

And 2 shots of the lower hose. The lower hose is just touching the steering shaft which concerns me. You can see in the picture, we put some cardboard in between the hose and the shaft and we're hoping that this pressure bends the hose a little bit over time. I could try to force it to curve more sharply too, if this doesn't work.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=107995&d=1559095750

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=107996&d=1559095757

[PeteMeindl]

We've been working a lot on all the plumbing of the engine - hoses and wiring things up. I think it's going pretty well. Here's a view of the engine with some of the new hoses we've added.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108220&d=1559440749

Here's the alternator with a couple wires attached:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108222&d=1559440767

And here's the computer after we installed it:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108221&d=1559440758

Please let me know if you see any issues - thanks, guys!

[PeteMeindl]

One thing we noticed recently was that the clutch cable mount on the front of the drivers footbox has come a little loose. In fact, the pressure of the bending cable actually cracked the head off of the screw we used to attached the clutch cable to the footbox. Here's a picture where you can see the mount being pulled a little bit away from the footbox wall:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108219&d=1559440732

I think what we'll do is get a stronger bolt and use that instead of the screw we had in there before. Unfortunately, the mount itself isn't too big so we won't be able to get something that much bigger and stronger. We could try a stronger material for the hardware too.

Does this seem like a good solution? Feel free to suggest any better ideas - thanks!

[GTBradley]

Hey Pete, good progress. I don’t know if this will help, but I wonder what your clutch cable route is? I ran mine under the engine mount and it seems to be free of undo pressure. I also put that mount screw at the top on the foot box.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108258&d=1559527758

If you can see in this picture, the first arrow is the route of the cable and the second arrow is where I tapped a bolt and mounted a cable guide to the frame. The cable then continues under the engine mount and has a straight line to the bell housing.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108259&d=1559527774

[GTBradley]

This weekend we made some progress on the radiator, both attaching the top part of the radiator to the chassis, as well as hooking up some of the hoses between the engine and the radiator. Man, it took all of my strength to get those steel tubes into the rubber hoses! Whew! I wasn't sure if we were going to get them to fit... but i think it worked out in the end.

Here's the hose going to the upper opening on the radiator:


And 2 shots of the lower hose. The lower hose is just touching the steering shaft which concerns me. You can see in the picture, we put some cardboard in between the hose and the shaft and we're hoping that this pressure bends the hose a little bit over time. I could try to force it to curve more sharply too, if this doesn't work.




Bend it away from the steering shaft, I did. I also tapped a bolt into the cross member and added a snug-fit vibration dampening loop clamp from McMaster, part number 3177T59. It holds the radiator hose where I want it and keeps from moving around.

[GTBradley]

Pete, a word of caution. I’ve read that these stainless radiator hoses can come lose and blow off. Some go so far as to modify things to make sure it doesn’t happen. I have about two miles on the odometer now and a bunch of warm ups at idle. I checked the hose clamps after a bit of running it up to temp and sure enough, the clamps were needing to be retightened.

[D02G]

Pete, a word of caution. I’ve read that these stainless radiator hoses can come lose and blow off. Some go so far as to modify things to make sure it doesn’t happen. I have about two miles on the odometer now and a bunch of warm ups at idle. I checked the hose clamps after a bit of running it up to temp and sure enough, the clamps were needing to be retightened.

What hoses did you use. Do you have part numbers?

[initiator]

I've seen folks install rivets around the radius of the metal hose to give the rubber hose and clamp something to grab onto.

[GTBradley]

What hoses did you use. Do you have part numbers?
My full-kit parts list only says "3/8" coolant hose cut 5ft" part number 16575. I'm sure that's the stainless hose I used, but it doesn't say it in the part name.

[PeteMeindl]

Hey Pete, good progress. I don’t know if this will help, but I wonder what your clutch cable route is? I ran mine under the engine mount and it seems to be free of undo pressure. I also put that mount screw at the top on the foot box.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108258&d=1559527758

If you can see in this picture, the first arrow is the route of the cable and the second arrow is where I tapped a bolt and mounted a cable guide to the frame. The cable then continues under the engine mount and has a straight line to the bell housing.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108259&d=1559527774

Thanks a lot, GT! I think we have a similar routing but i didn't mount any sort of cable guide. And like you said, maybe mounting the screw on the top helps. The clutch cable had a natural bend to it and it seemed to have less pressure with the screw on the bottom for me but i'll check it out and see if making the change solves the problem.

Thank you for the good advice!

[PeteMeindl]

Pete, a word of caution. I’ve read that these stainless radiator hoses can come lose and blow off. Some go so far as to modify things to make sure it doesn’t happen. I have about two miles on the odometer now and a bunch of warm ups at idle. I checked the hose clamps after a bit of running it up to temp and sure enough, the clamps were needing to be retightened.

I'll remember to check those hose clamps after we get the engine running for a bit. I'll write it down too as i'm sure in the excitement of the first start (whenever that may be...;)), we are likely to forget things like checking the clamps!

[GTBradley]

I'll remember to check those hose clamps after we get the engine running for a bit. I'll write it down too as i'm sure in the excitement of the first start (whenever that may be...;)), we are likely to forget things like checking the clamps!
That’s the truth. I was so excited on first start I didn’t even realize that the oil pressure I thought was coming up was actually reading on the water temp gauge. I had my connections reversed on water/oil sensors at the engine.

[PeteMeindl]

Lately we've been continuing to work on the wiring. Here's a picture of some of the fan wiring we did today.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108885&d=1560561029

We do have a question on the tach wiring.
Question: In the coyote fitment manual p82, it talks about taking the purple tach line out of the sending unit harness (which runs along the top of the engine) to attach to the 4th cylinder. However, I don't have a purple tach line in the sending unit harness like they show in the manual. Instead, I have a purple tach line in the coil crank bundle pointed out by the red arrow below. It seems like this purple line should be going in the sending unit harness (shown in green). Should i just take this purple wire by itself and run it out onto the engine to connect with the cylinder?

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108886&d=1560561047

Thank you so much, guys!

[edwardb]

We do have a question on the tach wiring.
Question: In the coyote fitment manual p82, it talks about taking the purple tach line out of the sending unit harness (which runs along the top of the engine) to attach to the 4th cylinder. However, I don't have a purple tach line in the sending unit harness like they show in the manual. Instead, I have a purple tach line in the coil crank bundle pointed out by the red arrow below. It seems like this purple line should be going in the sending unit harness (shown in green). Should i just take this purple wire by itself and run it out onto the engine to connect with the cylinder?

What you're seeing there is a difference between versions of the Ron Francis harness. Earlier versions did have the purple tach wire in the sending unit harness. The current version has the tach wire in a bundle along with the orange EFI, speed sensor, etc. Unfortunately looks like the Coyote installation instructions don't reflect the change. But not a big deal. Route the purple tach wire however it makes sense.

One other observation though. Based on your earlier pics and descriptions, you have Autometer gauges. Right? Although I personally haven't used Autometer gauges, I'm nearly certain you can't connect the Autometer tach directly to the coil over plug (COP) signal wire like many of us have done with the Speedhut gauges and the Coyote. The Speedhut tach can calibrate to the COP signal directly.

Autometer I believe requires a tach adapter like this. https://www.autometer.com/tach-adapter.html. Don't take my word for it. Do some further research and confirm. But pretty sure that's what you need to do.

[PeteMeindl]

What you're seeing there is a difference between versions of the Ron Francis harness. Earlier versions did have the purple tach wire in the sending unit harness. The current version has the tach wire in a bundle along with the orange EFI, speed sensor, etc. Unfortunately looks like the Coyote installation instructions don't reflect the change. But not a big deal. Route the purple tach wire however it makes sense.

One other observation though. Based on your earlier pics and descriptions, you have Autometer gauges. Right? Although I personally haven't used Autometer gauges, I'm nearly certain you can't connect the Autometer tach directly to the coil over plug (COP) signal wire like many of us have done with the Speedhut gauges and the Coyote. The Speedhut tach can calibrate to the COP signal directly.

Autometer I believe requires a tach adapter like this. https://www.autometer.com/tach-adapter.html. Don't take my word for it. Do some further research and confirm. But pretty sure that's what you need to do.

Thanks a lot, Paul! Sounds good on just rerouting the tach wire. Also, thank you very much for pointing out the potential need for the tach adapter. Yup, I'm using the basic autometer gauges - I didn't know about the need for an adapter at all and I'm sure I wouldn't have figured that out on my own! Thanks for the link, too!

[PeteMeindl]

Hi guys, As most of you know, we're installing a coyote engine in our mk iv. We've got a question about how to connect the green fuel pump wire from the wiring harness to the fuse box right by the pedal box. In the coyote fitment manual (9/5/18) on p 75, it says to cut a wire on the fuse box and connect the green fuel pump wire to one of the cut wires. Here's a picture of the instructions.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108905&d=1560620986

Question: Which part of the now cut tan wire do i connect the green fuel pump wire to? I think it's the one that's more towards the top of the picture but i am not sure so i wanted to check with you guys. Thanks a lot for your help! Hope you're all enjoying the weekend.

[edwardb]

Question: Which part of the now cut tan wire do i connect the green fuel pump wire to? I think it's the one that's more towards the top of the picture but i am not sure so i wanted to check with you guys. Thanks a lot for your help! Hope you're all enjoying the weekend.

Using those instructions, you would cut the wire exactly where the red arrow is pointing. Then connect that loose end to the Coyote green fuel pump wire. As the instructions say, that will cause the Coyote PCM, via the green fuel pump wire, to energize the relay and run the fuel pump. But the actual power from the RF panel is what will be supplying the +12V to the fuel pump. That's via the larger wire coming from the RF fuse location. That means that both the Coyote PDB and the RF harness are providing power for your fuel pump setup, and both fuses are in play. I've scratched me head trying to figure out the advantage of wiring it this way, and to be honest can't come up with anything. Earlier versions of the instructions looked like the linked pic below. (I saved it because this question comes up frequently)

Here you can see they're saying to cut the main power wire from the fuse location and attach the Coyote fuel pump wire to the end going to the relay. This takes the RF fuel pump circuit completely out of play. In fact the RF fuel pump fuse can be removed. The relay and the fuel pump are now powered by the Coyote PDB, which has the necessary fuse, etc. I've wired both of my Coyote builds this way. In the end, either will work. I just prefer to have one place to look for a blown fuse and source of power.

https://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Coyote%20Engine/Fuel_Pump_RF_Coyote_zpsuatldxet.png (https://s867.photobucket.com/user/edwardb123/media/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Coyote%20Engine/Fuel_Pump_RF_Coyote_zpsuatldxet.png.html)

[PeteMeindl]

Using those instructions, you would cut the wire exactly where the red arrow is pointing. Then connect that loose end to the Coyote green fuel pump wire. As the instructions say, that will cause the Coyote PCM, via the green fuel pump wire, to energize the relay and run the fuel pump. But the actual power from the RF panel is what will be supplying the +12V to the fuel pump. That's via the larger wire coming from the RF fuse location. That means that both the Coyote PDB and the RF harness are providing power for your fuel pump setup, and both fuses are in play. I've scratched me head trying to figure out the advantage of wiring it this way, and to be honest can't come up with anything. Earlier versions of the instructions looked like the linked pic below. (I saved it because this question comes up frequently)

Here you can see they're saying to cut the main power wire from the fuse location and attach the Coyote fuel pump wire to the end going to the relay. This takes the RF fuel pump circuit completely out of play. In fact the RF fuel pump fuse can be removed. The relay and the fuel pump are now powered by the Coyote PDB, which has the necessary fuse, etc. I've wired both of my Coyote builds this way. In the end, either will work. I just prefer to have one place to look for a blown fuse and source of power.

https://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Coyote%20Engine/Fuel_Pump_RF_Coyote_zpsuatldxet.png (https://s867.photobucket.com/user/edwardb123/media/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Coyote%20Engine/Fuel_Pump_RF_Coyote_zpsuatldxet.png.html)

Thanks, Paul! That is really helpful. I owe you a lot! Thank you very much.

[PeteMeindl]

We put together the parking brake today. Things went pretty smoothly, in general. We had to dremel out the hole in the silver handle to get the button to fit inside of it but that was pretty easy to fix and things went together well after that. The parking brake handle does slightly rub the aluminum panel, unfortunately, but we've been reading about some your solutions to this as it sounds like this is often a problem. We're now working on connecting the cables to the rear brakes.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108926&d=1560647519

[PeteMeindl]

Sorry for all of these questions this weekend... thank you for all the help! So, we're working on hooking up the battery to the wiring harness fuse panel that the fitment manual says to install on the top of the passenger footbox. Our understanding is that we connect the battery to the large inline fuse and then run a cable (which I think doesn't come with the kit) from the other side of the inline fuse to the fuse panel. This makes sense. The question we have is what do we do with that cable is already running from the wiring harness to the fuse panel (it came this way as shown in the picture below and is highlighted by the red arrow)

Do we remove this cable? Or keep it connected? It kind of looks like a ground - do we ground it?

Thank you very much, guys!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108887&d=1560561061

[PeteMeindl]

This weekend we hooked up the horn to the car. Things seemed to go pretty smoothly - here are a couple pics:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=109830&d=1561929577

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=109831&d=1561929584

We still aren't sure what to do about the issue mentioned in the battery hook up post above. We have a couple other issues we ran into that I'll post about shortly. Thank you for all of your help!

[PeteMeindl]

Hi guys,
We're thinking that we may be getting somewhat close to the end of the electrical work but we still have some roadblocks. One is we have a few wires we're not sure what to do with. Below is a picture of 2 (pointed out by the green and red arrows) wires that come from the harness but we're not sure where they go. Are they grounds? When we received our harness, the one with the green arrow was connected to the box where the battery input comes in. But I'm not sure if it should stay there as it sort of seems like it's a ground. Any thoughts on these two wires? Thank you very much!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=109832&d=1561930720

[edwardb]

Ford Performance has made some running changes to the Gen 2 Coyote control pack harness, and those are different from the early version I had. Two suggestions: (1) Have you called the Ford Performance help desk? The guys there are usually helpful, at least with straightforward questions like these. There's one especially that's good with electrical questions. While you're at it, suggest they update the instructions to keep up with their changes. :p (2) While not definitive, have you tried a continuity test? Reasonably good chance IMO the wire that was on the front terminal of the PDB is supposed to be there, e.g. it's a +12 volt power lead. It should have continuity to main power lead, as opposed to ground. Same for the other wire. Good chance it's a ground wire, and should have continuity to the Coyote harness ground.

[PeteMeindl]

We are hooking up our water temp and oil temp & pressure sensors and aren't quite sure what to do. Below is a picture from the ffr manual showing how things should hook up.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=109834&d=1561930733

And here is a picture of our sensors in our engine.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=109833&d=1561930726

A couple questions:
- we only have one output on our oil sensor it looks like while in the manual there are two. And i think this sensor is meant to deliver both oil pressure and temp (and there's a wire for each of these on the harness). Should there be another terminal on the oil sensor? Or, more likely, I imagine i am misunderstanding how to hook this up....
- My harness just ends in wires without that cap that attaches to the water temp sensor in the picture above from the manual. Do i need to get some sort of cap? Or can i just connect the wire directly to the sensor? Sort of like they do in the manual picture of the oil sensor.

Thank you, guys! Hope everyone's enjoying the summer.

[edwardb]

You have Autometer gauges. Seen in an earlier post. Those pictures are Speedhut gauges, which have 2-wire sending units. Hook up per your Autometer instructions, not the pictures in the FFR manual.

[PeteMeindl]

Ford Performance has made some running changes to the Gen 2 Coyote control pack harness, and those are different from the early version I had. Two suggestions: (1) Have you called the Ford Performance help desk? The guys there are usually helpful, at least with straightforward questions like these. There's one especially that's good with electrical questions. While you're at it, suggest they update the instructions to keep up with their changes. :p (2) While not definitive, have you tried a continuity test? Reasonably good chance IMO the wire that was on the front terminal of the PDB is supposed to be there, e.g. it's a +12 volt power lead. It should have continuity to main power lead, as opposed to ground. Same for the other wire. Good chance it's a ground wire, and should have continuity to the Coyote harness ground.

Thanks, Paul! Good idea - we'll give Ford Perf a call.

[PeteMeindl]

You have Autometer gauges. Seen in an earlier post. Those pictures are Speedhut gauges, which have 2-wire sending units. Hook up per your Autometer instructions, not the pictures in the FFR manual.

Ahhh, got it. I didn't realize the sensors were different as well. Thank you very much!

[PeteMeindl]

Hi guys, this weekend we got out and installed the dash. It all went pretty smoothly i think - I had worried that the screws going into the dash and then the frame along with the dash supports might not be enough to have the dash feel sturdy but it feels pretty solid which we're happy about. Now we've got to figure out a few of the remaining wires that we still haven't connected (i'm sure i'll have questions on these as i identify them...). After that, not too much more until we try (with the operative word being 'try') to fire up the engine for the first time! It's still a few weeks away, I'd say, but we're excited that it's close! Here are a couple pictures of the dash:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111013&d=1563745339

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111014&d=1563745348

Hope the everyone is hanging in there with all this heat much of the country is having!

[PeteMeindl]

Hi guys, we're finishing up a lot of loose ends these days. One thing we're trying to figure out is the oil temp sensor and where that goes. One note - we are using the autometer gauges and we have a coyote engine. Sorry this is a stupid question, but in terms of the oil temp sensor (this is it pictured below, right?) where do we install it? Do we replace the oil pan plug with this? Thank you for your help!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111344&d=1564276599

[edwardb]

If you have the Moroso low profile pan on your Coyote, it has a bung on the side for sensors like that. Visible in this picture directly above the motor mount. No, you don't use the drain plug.

https://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Coyote%20Engine/IMG_3559_zpsmrahsblc.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/edwardb123/media/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Coyote%20Engine/IMG_3559_zpsmrahsblc.jpg.html)

[PeteMeindl]

Great - thanks a lot, Paul! Yes, we do have the moroso low profile oil pan you showed. I see the bung on the side of our pan, same as in your picture. The bung is on the opposite side from where i'm running my wires to the oil pressure and water temp sensors. There's also a plug on the left side of the engine (the left side when it's upright) that is different from the bung above - would this be ok to use instead? Or should i only use the plug that's dark and located on the right side of the upright engine. Again, sorry for such an amateur question... Thank you so much!

[edwardb]

Great - thanks a lot, Paul! Yes, we do have the moroso low profile oil pan you showed. I see the bung on the side of our pan, same as in your picture. The bung is on the opposite side from where i'm running my wires to the oil pressure and water temp sensors. There's also a plug on the left side of the engine (the left side when it's upright) that is different from the bung above - would this be ok to use instead? Or should i only use the plug that's dark and located on the right side of the upright engine. Again, sorry for such an amateur question... Thank you so much!

The plug on the other side from what I pictured is for an oil level sensor. My early Gen 2 crate had it, but I believe Ford eliminated it from the engine sometime later and I've heard from several it wasn't active in the crate program. Anyway, yes you can use either side. Just has to be where the sensor is immersed in oil in the pan. Only issue is the left side (opposite from what I pictured, as you said) is as I recall a larger thread size so not sure how would work with your sensor. Some kind of adapter likely required.

[PeteMeindl]

The plug on the other side from what I pictured is for an oil level sensor. My early Gen 2 crate had it, but I believe Ford eliminated it from the engine sometime later and I've heard from several it wasn't active in the crate program. Anyway, yes you can use either side. Just has to be where the sensor is immersed in oil in the pan. Only issue is the left side (opposite from what I pictured, as you said) is as I recall a larger thread size so not sure how would work with your sensor. Some kind of adapter likely required.

Perfect - thank you, Paul! That's really helpful. Hopefully we'll get this installed today.

Then we'll be off to our next steps - we've got a handful of wires we need to sort out where they go and then i think we're close to finishing the wiring we need before thinking about our first attempted start! :)

[Ed Mc]

Steve

Did you get a response from Ford Performance on the wires?

[PeteMeindl]

Steve

Did you get a response from Ford Performance on the wires?

I'm batching up a bunch of questions for them but i think the wire i was wondering about is actually a ground, according to page 5 of the Ford controls pack instructions. Still need to confirm that though... Let me know if you find anything out - thanks!
Pete

[PeteMeindl]

Thank you again to Paul for all of his help with all my questions on sensors. I think today we got them all installed and I think things seem to be in good shape.

We then turned to some very fun steps - we put on the steering wheel. It's great to turn the steering wheel and so those front wheels turn! :)
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111472&d=1564362153

and then the roll bar:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111473&d=1564362160

[initiator]

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111472&d=1564362153


I see you re-drilled the factory shifter to have something to grip until you buy a new short shifter. I laughed out loud because it looks exactly like mine! My son's friends keep asking if it's a truck transmission because the shifter is so long. Haven't had time to source a short one yet.

Joe

[BadAsp427]

I see you re-drilled the factory shifter to have something to grip until you buy a new short shifter. I laughed out loud because it looks exactly like mine! My son's friends keep asking if it's a truck transmission because the shifter is so long. Haven't had time to source a short one yet.

Joe

I'm actually curious why you have the shifter installed like that. Perhaps I missed the reason in your thread? When it is installed down/facing forward as designed, it is actually very comfortable and natural shifting it. IMO.

[GTBradley]

The FFR build manual actually suggests doing it like that. I almost did it myself. If I remember right they say something like, they prefer the feel of the upright shifter. The nice thing is it can be used in either configuration now because it’s just an extra mount hole.

[PeteMeindl]

I see you re-drilled the factory shifter to have something to grip until you buy a new short shifter. I laughed out loud because it looks exactly like mine! My son's friends keep asking if it's a truck transmission because the shifter is so long. Haven't had time to source a short one yet.

Joe

Ha! :) Thanks, Joe. Yeah, it sure does look a little funny. Let me know if find a short shifter you like.

[PeteMeindl]

I'm actually curious why you have the shifter installed like that. Perhaps I missed the reason in your thread? When it is installed down/facing forward as designed, it is actually very comfortable and natural shifting it. IMO.

Thanks, Carl. You know, you bring up a good point - once i get things go-karting, i'll try the forward leaning position and see how it feels. I was really just following the manual and didn't try out the other way. But glad to hear it feels natural shifting the way you've got it as i'm not sure it will with the way i have mine. Thanks!

[PeteMeindl]

I see you re-drilled the factory shifter to have something to grip until you buy a new short shifter. I laughed out loud because it looks exactly like mine! My son's friends keep asking if it's a truck transmission because the shifter is so long. Haven't had time to source a short one yet.

Joe

By the way, drilling through that shifter was something else, wasn't it? That thing is tough.

[initiator]

By the way, drilling through that shifter was something else, wasn't it? That thing is tough.

I don't remember having too much trouble with it, but my memory isn't great. If it's stainless, maybe it got too hot and work-hardened - that can be a real bear. I do stainless with new/sharp drill bits, reduced RPM, and relatively high force.

I expect a lot more difficulty drilling the roll bars.

I'm using a mid-shift conversion, so the forward-angled shifter was too far forward. I installed this shifter upright just so I could move through the gears.

[PeteMeindl]

Hi guys,
We're solving some of the last few items here before we attempt our first start. Enthusiasm is high! :) This weekend we filled the engine with oil and coolant, put the power steering fluid in, tried to align the tires with some string, figured out a couple of the still outstanding loose wires, and actually put the car on the ground for the first time. Here it is:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=112217&d=1565561284

I know this isn't an original thought but wow does it feel low after working on it for about a year up on jack stands! Feels great to sit in.

I think we have 3 more questions before we try to start, all to do with wiring.
1) On page 36 of the chassis harness manual, it talks about snipping a red wire for the fan relay control and connecting it to the computer fan power wire. Sorry if this is stupid but I'm not sure where the computer fan power wire is. Also, i'm not sure if we need to do this or if refers to a different setup. Here's a picture of the manual:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=112218&d=1565561296

2) We're using the autometer gauges and we have hooked them up. There are 2 wires that didn't seem to have a home labeled speed sensor. One gray and one green in this picture. I think we don't need those but i just wanted to check to see if this is the case.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=112219&d=1565561308

3) We have a red HAAT B wire that i think is for use if we have something like a clock that needs power all the time. If we don't, I think I can just cap this, right? Or do i need it somewhere? Here's a picture of it:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=112220&d=1565561315

Hope everyone is doing well. Thank you for all of your help, guys!

[edwardb]

1. I've tried (really I have...) to understand the logic behind how those fan instructions are telling people to hook up the Coyote cooling fan. Your Coyote control pack has everything you need to power and control the fan. You don't need to do anything with the Ron Francis harness or panel. Check your Ford Performance instructions. On the main harness pages, item "O - Blunt Cut Cooling Fan Lead" should be routed directly to your cooling fan positive connection. Ground the other side and you're done. The Coyote PCM will determine when the fan needs to run (it runs alot BTW) and will power it on and off accordingly. Your Coyote control pack PDB has the cooling fan relay, fuse, etc. Not to confuse the issue (and don't read any further if this seems confusing :p) if you were to take the Coyote fan wire and hook it to the RF wire as instructed, the Coyote PDB would be doing nothing more than switching a relay and the RF harness would power the fan. So now you would have two relays and two fuses in your fan circuit. Not necessary.

2. Haven't done Autometer gauges so can't offer much there. Do you have a GPS speedo, and don't need the speed sensor signal? That's what those wires are for. They are coming from the speed sensor on your transmission, assuming you have it plugged in.

3. That HAAT wire from your Coyote pigtail can be used for a clock or whatever (HAAT = Hot At All Times, which I assume you know) but if you're not going to use it, pull the fuse in the Coyote PDB and it will be a dead wire.

[PeteMeindl]

1. I've tried (really I have...) to understand the logic behind how those fan instructions are telling people to hook up the Coyote cooling fan. Your Coyote control pack has everything you need to power and control the fan. You don't need to do anything with the Ron Francis harness or panel. Check your Ford Performance instructions. On the main harness pages, item "O - Blunt Cut Cooling Fan Lead" should be routed directly to your cooling fan positive connection. Ground the other side and you're done. The Coyote PCM will determine when the fan needs to run (it runs alot BTW) and will power it on and off accordingly. Your Coyote control pack PDB has the cooling fan relay, fuse, etc. Not to confuse the issue (and don't read any further if this seems confusing :p) if you were to take the Coyote fan wire and hook it to the RF wire as instructed, the Coyote PDB would be doing nothing more than switching a relay and the RF harness would power the fan. So now you would have two relays and two fuses in your fan circuit. Not necessary.

2. Haven't done Autometer gauges so can't offer much there. Do you have a GPS speedo, and don't need the speed sensor signal? That's what those wires are for. They are coming from the speed sensor on your transmission, assuming you have it plugged in.

3. That HAAT wire from your Coyote pigtail can be used for a clock or whatever (HAAT = Hot At All Times, which I assume you know) but if you're not going to use it, pull the fuse in the Coyote PDB and it will be a dead wire.

Thanks a lot, Paul! Very clear and helpful, as always. :) Happy to hear all is ok with those fan wires as that one was my biggest concern. I'll check on the autometer gauges and see what i need to do with those wires since i don't have gps.

Thank you, again, for your help!

[edwardb]

3. That HAAT wire from your Coyote pigtail can be used for a clock or whatever (HAAT = Hot At All Times, which I assume you know) but if you're not going to use it, pull the fuse in the Coyote PDB and it will be a dead wire.

OK, hot off the press. That might be really bad advice. Literally since I typed that suggestion and now I've been troubleshooting why the MIL in my Coupe build wasn't working. After tracing wires, found the MIL is powered off one of the HAAT circuits, and as luck would have it, that HAAT fuse was blown. Not sure why and will continue to monitor. But bottom line, if you're not going to use the HAAT wire, cap it and tie it out of the way. I wouldn't recommend pulling the fuse. Might have some other unintended consequence. Granted, what I'm working on is a Gen 3 Coyote, and your Gen 2 might be different. But why chance it? Do it the easy way.

[PeteMeindl]

OK, hot off the press. That might be really bad advice. Literally since I typed that suggestion and now I've been troubleshooting why the MIL in my Coupe build wasn't working. After tracing wires, found the MIL is powered off one of the HAAT circuits, and as luck would have it, that HAAT fuse was blown. Not sure why and will continue to monitor. But bottom line, if you're not going to use the HAAT wire, cap it and tie it out of the way. I wouldn't recommend pulling the fuse. Might have some other unintended consequence. Granted, what I'm working on is a Gen 3 Coyote, and your Gen 2 might be different. But why chance it? Do it the easy way.

:) Thanks for the follow up, Paul! I'll definitely keep the HAAT wire and just cap it off.

Tonight we put the transmission fluid in as well as put in the battery. Also filled the tires with air... getting close. :)

[PeteMeindl]

Really stupid question here so I apologize about my ignorance... but I thought that the way you hook up a car battery is first connect the positive terminal and second connect the ground. But in the factory five manual, they seem to go ground first and then positive terminal. Here's a picture:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=112255&d=1565662032

Hmmmm... Am I wrong about this? Which terminal do you guys connect first? Thank you! And, again, sorry for these absolute beginner questions...

[BadAsp427]

You are correct that you should usually connect the POS first. That way, while you are connecting the ground, if you were to accidentally hit your wrench to a ground while tightening it up, you will not short out the battery causing a large spark and burning something. If you have the ground all ready connected and are tightening up the positive and hit something that is ground, you have said spark and possible burning. Good catch... I guess FF is just trying to keep everyone on their toes....

[Papa]

I expect a lot more difficulty drilling the roll bars.


The roll bars weren't that hard to drill. I used a couple of progressively larger bits until I got to the needed diameter. I also recommend a lubricant. I use Tap Magic whenever drilling through thicker material.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?24916-Papa-s-MKIV-Roadster-Build-9115-(The-car-is-now-in-Kleiner-s-capable-hands!)&p=308153&viewfull=1#post308153

Good luck!

[PeteMeindl]

You are correct that you should usually connect the POS first. That way, while you are connecting the ground, if you were to accidentally hit your wrench to a ground while tightening it up, you will not short out the battery causing a large spark and burning something. If you have the ground all ready connected and are tightening up the positive and hit something that is ground, you have said spark and possible burning. Good catch... I guess FF is just trying to keep everyone on their toes....

Got it - thanks a lot, BadAsp! That's reassuring to hear. Hope you're doing well.

[randrall]

Hi guys, we're finishing up a lot of loose ends these days. One thing we're trying to figure out is the oil temp sensor and where that goes. One note - we are using the autometer gauges and we have a coyote engine. Sorry this is a stupid question, but in terms of the oil temp sensor (this is it pictured below, right?) where do we install it? Do we replace the oil pan plug with this? Thank you for your help!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111344&d=1564276599

Hi
I have the same problem, I thought this zigo sensor is for cooling where the fan is but the hole is too small and doesn’t fit. I have no idea what use for cooling sensor and where use this one. Previously I’ve read that level sensor in oli pan is needn’t with coyote.

[PeteMeindl]

Hi
I have the same problem, I thought this zigo sensor is for cooling where the fan is but the hole is too small and doesn’t fit. I have no idea what use for cooling sensor and where use this one. Previously I’ve read that level sensor in oli pan is needn’t with coyote.

Hi Randrall,
Turns out that wasn't the oil temp sensor to use for the coyote, or at least it wasn't the oil temp sensor that i ended up using... So i still have that zirgo sensor and it doesn't have a home yet. Maybe it's an extra that could be for other engine types beyond the coyote? I don't really know at this point.

[PeteMeindl]

Well, we had our first attempted start here. We rolled the car out of the garage, got the cameras ready on the off chance we've done everything right, got the fire extinguisher ready on the perhaps more likely chance that we did everything wrong, and then we turned the key... and nothing happened. :( No sound of the fuel pump, no lights on the dash, really no sign that we could tell of anything going on... So this now becomes a good opportunity for us to learn how to use a voltmeter!

So here's what we've tested so far:
1) We started with the battery - voltmeter says it has 12V so that's good.
2) Then we worked our way up the positive cable from the battery to the top of passenger footbox where there's a large fuse. We have 12V on both sides of that.
3) then we went from the big fuse to the fuse box on top of the passenger footbox. 12V there, so that's good.
4) Then things got a little harder to follow as we enter into the harness world where everything is sort of wrapped up. So we tested a couple things. One is the OBD computer. We were getting power, which was good, but i don't think enough is going on for the computer to tell us anything. It powers on but the fails as it goes into trying to diagnose anything.
5) Another thing we testing is the HAAT wire coming out of the pigtail. That had 12V which was good.
6) Then we began, with our minimal understanding of electricity, to try to think about what the ignition switch needs to do. I think that, in order for us turning the key to have any effect, there needs to be some haat power going into the ignition - is that correct? So we pulled the ignition out of the dash and unwrapped the tape and tested the 7 wires going into the ignition. None had anything. So i think, maybe this is a problem for us. Is that right? Should at least one of those have some power going to the ignition?

Next step we're going to get a voltmeter with one of those piercing needles as that will probably help us as we do further testing given we just have one that works on bare metal now.

We'd love advice you guys have on:
1) if we're correct in thinking we need some haat power at the ignition and that this is a problem for us
2) Any thoughts on where we messed up and how to fix it. I know it's hard to say given all the things that could be wrong...
3) other areas we should test that could help isolate the problem

Thanks a lot! Wish we had more exciting news to report but I guess it's all part of the adventure!

[Railroad]

I think the HAAT wire goes to the battery un interrupted. I have a Gen 1 which is diff, but has the same HAAT wire. It is something like 10 gauge. I was uncomfortable having a wire that large running without a fuse through the chassis. I put a disconnect in line.
I think the HAAT keeps the memory alive in the ECU. I would not want the power to the ECU on the switch, coming on and off with the key switch.
Maybe I answered your question. I got lost in your interpretation of the wiring.

[Railroad]

What you hear when you turn the key to the on position might help you find the problem.
I have forgotten a lot, but I hear a short duration hum when I turn the key on. I also hear the fuel pump start running. ,,,seems like I read, to press the throttle pedal to the floor slowly and release for calibration. The pedal procedure is just for the first time, unless you kill the HAAT wire each shut down, IMO.

[Railroad]

If you are getting 12 v on the HAAT wire and it is not hooked up to the battery +, you must be getting back feed from 12 v leads that would normally use the HAAT wire.
If you do not have any success by tomorrow, I would call Ford Perf.
Good luck, let us know how it goes.

[edwardb]

All of your descriptions are for the Coyote harness. As long as you have power to the front of the PDB, and all the connections completed, I doubt that's where your problem is. You said no power at the ignition switch, no gauges, etc. That all comes from the Ron Francis harness. How do you have the RF harness connected to power? Specifically the large wires in the harness that are routed to battery power, ignition switch, accessory, alternator, etc.?

[PeteMeindl]

All of your descriptions are for the Coyote harness. As long as you have power to the front of the PDB, and all the connections completed, I doubt that's where your problem is. You said no power at the ignition switch, no gauges, etc. That all comes from the Ron Francis harness. How do you have the RF harness connected to power? Specifically the large wires in the harness that are routed to battery power, ignition switch, accessory, alternator, etc.?

Thanks, Paul and Railroad! This is helping us out. So from your messages, i'm thinking that the next thing to check is how I'm getting power (or more likely not getting power) to the ron francis chassis harness. From what i can understand, the place where the RF harness gets its power from the battery is via cables hooked up to the starter - so a line should be coming with 12V to a post on the starter, and then a couple wires from the RF harness are also on that post and thats how the harness gets its power. Here's a picture of the RF harness schematic that i think shows this. The red arrow i drew to show where i think the power is coming in to the rf harness.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=112917&d=1566768692

If we test for power there on that post of the starter, we don't have power! So if the above is correct, we're not getting any power to the rf harness, which would cause all the lack of activity when we turn the key. So here are a few photos as we try to diagnose this. The first show the top of the passenger footbox and the red arrow shows where we do have power and then the green where i'd like us to have power but somewhere along the way we don't. I have 3 pictures following the green arrow down to the starter where we test and find no power. Here they are:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=112918&d=1566768706

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=112919&d=1566768717

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=112920&d=1566768734

A couple questions:
1) is it correct that this connection on the starter is where the rf harness gets its power?
2) where along that green path do you think we are losing power?
3) any thought on how we get power down to that starter, and thus to the rf harness?

Thank you so much, guys! We don't know what we'd do without you!

[edwardb]

Best I can tell from your descriptions and pictures is that you're still confusing power for the Coyote system via the terminal on the front of the PDB to the power required for the rest of the chassis wiring e.g. the Ron Francis harness. Another way to say it would be wire the RF harness like you would if using something other than Coyote power. Then add the Coyote system, which is just a couple of interconnects.

Here is what I recommend. There are variations, but this is the basic idea:

1. Large battery cable from the + terminal on your battery to a binding post (or alternatively a master disconnect) on the firewall. The kit provides a #4 gauge cable. Will work although some upgrade to #2 or even larger.

2. Large battery cable from the binding post to the large terminal on the starter solenoid. Now you have full +12V battery power to the starter.

3. Three large wires from the RF harness also on the binding post. (1) RED-BATTERY FEED, (2) RED ALTERNATOR FEED, (3) RED IGN SW -> SOL. Now you have full +12V battery power to the RH harness. Remove and discard the blue starter solenoid and clutch safety switch wire. Not used with a Coyote setup that has its own clutch safety switch. Note: The RF schematic does show these wires attached to a "starter solenoid." This IMO is referencing a firewall mounted solenoid that used to be commonplace. Yes, you can physically drag the wires down to the actual starter, and some do. But it's not necessary and the wires may not reach.

4. Finally, one remaining large wire from the binding post to the front terminal on the Coyote PDB. Now you have full +12V battery power to the Coyote system.

With the above in place, your starter, RF harness, and Coyote system will all be powered. The ignition switch should be wired exactly like shown in the RF harness schematic. Assuming you have the other Coyote connections installed properly (ignition sense, start sense, fuel pump, starter wire, cooling fan wire) the Coyote should start and run like it's supposed to.

Hope that maybe helps.

[PeteMeindl]

Best I can tell from your descriptions and pictures is that you're still confusing power for the Coyote system via the terminal on the front of the PDB to the power required for the rest of the chassis wiring e.g. the Ron Francis harness. Another way to say it would be wire the RF harness like you would if using something other than Coyote power. Then add the Coyote system, which is just a couple of interconnects.

Here is what I recommend. There are variations, but this is the basic idea:

1. Large battery cable from the + terminal on your battery to a binding post (or alternatively a master disconnect) on the firewall. The kit provides a #4 gauge cable. Will work although some upgrade to #2 or even larger.

2. Large battery cable from the binding post to the large terminal on the starter solenoid. Now you have full +12V battery power to the starter.

3. Three large wires from the RF harness also on the binding post. (1) RED-BATTERY FEED, (2) RED ALTERNATOR FEED, (3) RED IGN SW -> SOL. Now you have full +12V battery power to the RH harness. Remove and discard the blue starter solenoid and clutch safety switch wire. Not used with a Coyote setup that has its own clutch safety switch. Note: The RF schematic does show these wires attached to a "starter solenoid." This IMO is referencing a firewall mounted solenoid that used to be commonplace. Yes, you can physically drag the wires down to the actual starter, and some do. But it's not necessary and the wires may not reach.

4. Finally, one remaining large wire from the binding post to the front terminal on the Coyote PDB. Now you have full +12V battery power to the Coyote system.

With the above in place, your starter, RF harness, and Coyote system will all be powered. The ignition switch should be wired exactly like shown in the RF harness schematic. Assuming you have the other Coyote connections installed properly (ignition sense, start sense, fuel pump, starter wire, cooling fan wire) the Coyote should start and run like it's supposed to.

Hope that maybe helps.

Paul - thank you so much! This is great - I think I understand what we need to do and it makes sense. We'll need to get some parts and tackle this over labor day weekend - I'm excited to try it out. We'll certainly let you know how it goes and thank you very much for saving the day for us, yet again!

[Railroad]

Do you have main disconnect switch? ,,,verify you have hot on both post of the disconnect.
I hope

[PeteMeindl]

Do you have main disconnect switch? ,,,verify you have hot on both post of the disconnect.
I hope

We don't have a main disconnect switch yet, but per Paul's recommendation, we'll be installing one this weekend. I'll check it for power on both posts - thanks, Railroad!

[doddmoore]

Exciting times Pete!

[edwardb]

We don't have a main disconnect switch yet, but per Paul's recommendation, we'll be installing one this weekend. I'll check it for power on both posts - thanks, Railroad!

OK, if you're going to install a master disconnect, you should have the battery power + Coyote PDB on one post, and the starter and RF wires on the other. That way with it off, the Coyote is still getting power as recommended by Ford Performance. With it on, both sides should be powered and everything alive.

[PeteMeindl]

OK, if you're going to install a master disconnect, you should have the battery power + Coyote PDB on one post, and the starter and RF wires on the other. That way with it off, the Coyote is still getting power as recommended by Ford Performance. With it on, both sides should be powered and everything alive.

Great - thank you, Paul! We will do it that way. Excited to try it out this weekend! :)

[PeteMeindl]

Hi guys,
Huge day over here - thank you VERY much to Paul for his detailed instructions about the issues we were having with our first start. Following his instructions to the letter gave us our first successful start!!! Yahooooooooooo!! :) we are all so excited!! Here's a link to watch, filmed by sarah:

https://youtu.be/AoyesI8ggpo

We couldn't be happier - thank you so much!! :)

A couple funny things happened that we need to investigate:
- we do seem to get some smoke from the right side of the engine - we will investigate where that's coming from. Smells like plastic burning, perhaps. Don't seem to see any wires up on the headers or anywhere super hot. We'll dig into it more.
- one thing that's odd is that the fuel pump and the gauges turn on when we connect the battery to the rest of the car through the battery cut off switch, before even turning the key to its first stage. When we turn the key to the first stage nothing additional happens. And then turning the key one more stage turns the engine on, as we'd expect.

Had a small fuel leak which we tightened up at the fuel pressure gauge. Most everything else looks good!

Thank you to everyone on the forum for all of your help. We'd never have made it to this stage without you and we are very thankful to you all!

[chmhasy]

Congrads Nice sounding motor. You may want to remember to take off the cardboard cover so the radiator can breath

[SSNK4US]

CONGRATULATIONS Pete!!!!!! First start in just under a year!! I’m soooo jealous.... our body is still on the chassis :(
Speaking of bodies, is yours still in the house? Lol
I also think it’s SO cool that one of the boys got to fire it up! Did they have to battle it out to get to do the honors?
Congrats again! You guys have done a great job!

Kurt

[PeteMeindl]

Congrads Nice sounding motor. You may want to remember to take off the cardboard cover so the radiator can breath

Ha! yeah, great point. We thought we were just going to test the electrical system but then everything was working (at least sort of...) and so we thought, hey, let's try starting it up! We'll remove the cardboard going forward - thanks! :)

[PeteMeindl]

CONGRATULATIONS Pete!!!!!! First start in just under a year!! I’m soooo jealous.... our body is still on the chassis :(
Speaking of bodies, is yours still in the house? Lol
I also think it’s SO cool that one of the boys got to fire it up! Did they have to battle it out to get to do the honors?
Congrats again! You guys have done a great job!

Kurt

Thanks, Kurt! Hope you're feeling well these days!

Pete

[edwardb]

Thanks, and congratulations on getting it running! Huge milestone. You should not have any power to the gauges (via the RH harness) or the Coyote system (via the ignition sense wire) with the key off. I'd suggest you check the ignition switch wiring. It needs to be exactly like the RF schematic. The markings on the switch can be a little difficult to read. I'm guessing something is incorrect and there's battery power to RF ACC and/or IGN circuits with the key off.

[Straversi]

Congratulations. The camera operators gets extra points for enthusiasm! Love that the first start was a family affair.
-Steve

[Boydster]

Hi guys,
https://youtu.be/AoyesI8ggpo

Fantastic. I love the family enthusiasm, especially from the camera operator! :)

[GTBradley]

.
- one thing that's odd is that the fuel pump and the gauges turn on when we connect the battery to the rest of the car through the battery cut off switch, before even turning the key to its first stage. When we turn the key to the first stage nothing additional happens. And then turning the key one more stage turns the engine on, as we'd expect.

Fantastic! Glad to see it running. Probably not the reason for the power issue but make sure the HAAT wire isn’t connected to battery power. It will reverse feed everything. I had smoke too, I assume it was the Factory Five side pipes and headers burning off surface oil. Mine smelled excessively smokey for a while.

[PeteMeindl]

Fantastic! Glad to see it running. Probably not the reason for the power issue but make sure the HAAT wire isn’t connected to battery power. It will reverse feed everything. I had smoke too, I assume it was the Factory Five side pipes and headers burning off surface oil. Mine smelled excessively smokey for a while.

Thanks, GT! Yeah, i think we must have had the same smoke issue as you - now that we've started the car a couple times, the smoke and smell has gone away. Always nice when problems go away that easily! :)

[Ed Mc]

Congratulations. I am just behind you with my build and your thread has been a big help as I have many of the same questions. Looking to have my first start before the end of the month

[PeteMeindl]

Now that we've had our first start, we're working on troubleshooting a couple issues before we make our first go carting attempt.
1) fuel leak. We have a pretty decent fuel leak at the connection between the braided fuel return line and the fuel pickup. The green arrow below shows where we think the fuel is leaking, although it's possible it's an inch or so earlier in the braided line, but it's definitely in the braided line connection:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=113653&d=1567454122

We've tried taking the line off and making sure the white ring insert is correctly positioned and we've even tried a spare white ring and cap that we had from another line, but we still get a decent leak here. The black cap that you screw in is quite tight and there are no visible threads so it seems like that cap is about as tight as it can go. But we still get a leak that starts up a couple seconds after you start the engine. Do you think this end of the braided line could be faulty? Or is there something else you guys would recommend we do?

2) Ignition: we've double checked our wires and we think they are all in the right place yet the car still is 'on' when the battery is connected but before you turn the key to the right. We are now doing some connectivity tests and found a great thread on this issue here:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?28454-Ignition-switch-question
So i'm hoping we'll be able to sort the problem out with this info. I'll let you know!

Thanks, guys!

[edwardb]

Ignition: we've double checked our wires and we think they are all in the right place yet the car still is 'on' when the battery is connected but before you turn the key to the right. We are now doing some connectivity tests and found a great thread on this issue here:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?28454-Ignition-switch-question
So i'm hoping we'll be able to sort the problem out with this info. I'll let you know!

Maybe post a picture of the back of your ignition switch including the wiring. There's just no way you should be getting power with the key off. Or remove the Ron Francis RED-IGN SW->SOL wire from master disconnect. If that wire isn't getting battery power, you shouldn't have gauges (along with a bunch of other stuff) and the Coyote system shouldn't initiate the fuel pump, start, etc. If those things are still active with the wire disconnected, you're getting power through another path, which isn't correct.

[PeteMeindl]

Maybe post a picture of the back of your ignition switch including the wiring. There's just no way you should be getting power with the key off. Or remove the Ron Francis RED-IGN SW->SOL wire from master disconnect. If that wire isn't getting battery power, you shouldn't have gauges (along with a bunch of other stuff) and the Coyote system shouldn't initiate the fuel pump, start, etc. If those things are still active with the wire disconnected, you're getting power through another path, which isn't correct.

Thanks, Paul. I'll get a picture and post it as well test your idea around removing the red ign sw-> sol wire from the disconnect. Thank you for your help!

I think we may have a lead on our fuel leak - we heard from ffr that there should be an o-ring in the braided flexible line (not just the white c-ring) and we're missing that, hence the leak...

[Papa]

Pete,

Hope you get the bugs sorted out so you can enjoy the go-cart. Now a question for you. Is the electrical tape on the fuel pump plug there because the clip is broken? I know they tend to snap off and I went through three before I was done. Don't rely on that tape to keep the plug seated! The last thing you want is to be driving months from now and have the car die on you because the plug vibrated loose.

Dave

[Vspeeds]

Congratulations on the first start. Thats awesome

[initiator]

Awesome progress, Pete! Looks like you're over the hump!

[PeteMeindl]

Pete,

Hope you get the bugs sorted out so you can enjoy the go-cart. Now a question for you. Is the electrical tape on the fuel pump plug there because the clip is broken? I know they tend to snap off and I went through three before I was done. Don't rely on that tape to keep the plug seated! The last thing you want is to be driving months from now and have the car die on you because the plug vibrated loose.

Dave

Great catch, Dave! Yeah, that's exactly what happened to us - the clip broke off. And i've been worried about it ever since! So thank you for bringing it up and forcing us to do something about it. :) Were you able to buy a new plug with an unbroken clip, cut off the old plug, and then just connect the new plug to the old wires? If so, where did you buy the plug? Thanks a lot!

[PeteMeindl]

I still need to run some connectivity tests and remove some of these wires to see what happens, per Paul's good suggestion, but here are a couple shots of sarah holding our ignition. I'm hoping to spend some time doing a better job diagnosing this over the coming weekend. Sorry if you really can't tell much from these pictures... Hope everyone's doing well!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=113775&d=1567648556

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=113776&d=1567648564

[Papa]

Great catch, Dave! Yeah, that's exactly what happened to us - the clip broke off. And i've been worried about it ever since! So thank you for bringing it up and forcing us to do something about it. :) Were you able to buy a new plug with an unbroken clip, cut off the old plug, and then just connect the new plug to the old wires? If so, where did you buy the plug? Thanks a lot!

You can get replacement plugs through Summit or RockAuto or just about any auto parts store. Here is an example from Autozone.

https://m.autozone.com/electrical-and-lighting/fuel-pump-harness-connector

They come with a pig tail, so you'll need to cut the broken one off and connect the replacement.

Dave

[Papa]

I still need to run some connectivity tests and remove some of these wires to see what happens, per Paul's good suggestion, but here are a couple shots of sarah holding our ignition. I'm hoping to spend some time doing a better job diagnosing this over the coming weekend. Sorry if you really can't tell much from these pictures... Hope everyone's doing well!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=113775&d=1567648556

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=113776&d=1567648564

What alternator setup are you using? If it's a one-wire setup, you should only have one of those brown wires hooked up to the ignition. You could be feeding power through the alternator back into your fuse panel through the ignition switch.

Dave

[edwardb]

What alternator setup are you using? If it's a one-wire setup, you should only have one of those brown wires hooked up to the ignition. You could be feeding power through the alternator back into your fuse panel through the ignition switch.

Dave

The Coyote alternator is not a one-wire alternator (it's actually a 6-G FWIW) but I agree it does not use the RF harness BRN-ALTERNATOR-IGN wires. If you have the other end attached to the large post on the alternator, I agree with Dave that could feed +12V battery to the switched circuits even when the key is off. Good catch. The only wire that should be attached to the ACC terminal on the ignition switch is the BRN-ACC FEED->IGN SW. Remove the BRN-ALTERNATOR-IGN wire from the ignition switch and the alternator main post. You could remove the wire completely from the harness if you want. Or just cap both ends firmly.

Also I see you have two blue wires on the start terminal on the ignition switch. Only the LT BLU-EFI CRANK POWER wire should be connected to the ignition switch. The other end should be connected to the Coyote SMR (Starter Motor Request) wire. Apparently is since you're getting a start function. The LT BLU-IGN SW-NS SW wire is not normally used in a Coyote installation. Including through the RF clutch safety switch and to the starter solenoid as shown in the RF wiring harness schematic. I normally remove those wires completely. But again can be capped at both ends if not removed The small terminal on the starter solenoid should only have the Coyote harness starter lead.

The other two connections on the ignition switch look OK.

Hopefully that changes things for the better.

[PeteMeindl]

You can get replacement plugs through Summit or RockAuto or just about any auto parts store. Here is an example from Autozone.

https://m.autozone.com/electrical-and-lighting/fuel-pump-harness-connector

They come with a pig tail, so you'll need to cut the broken one off and connect the replacement.

Dave

That's great news - thanks, Dave! I was worried I'd have to buy a much bigger chunk. We'll get that fixed up - thank you!

[PeteMeindl]

The Coyote alternator is not a one-wire alternator (it's actually a 6-G FWIW) but I agree it does not use the RF harness BRN-ALTERNATOR-IGN wires. If you have the other end attached to the large post on the alternator, I agree with Dave that could feed +12V battery to the switched circuits even when the key is off. Good catch. The only wire that should be attached to the ACC terminal on the ignition switch is the BRN-ACC FEED->IGN SW. Remove the BRN-ALTERNATOR-IGN wire from the ignition switch and the alternator main post. You could remove the wire completely from the harness if you want. Or just cap both ends firmly.

Also I see you have two blue wires on the start terminal on the ignition switch. Only the only LT BLU-EFI CRANK POWER wire should be connected to the ignition switch. The other end should be connected to the Coyote SMR (Starter Motor Request) wire. Apparently is since you're getting a start function. The LT BLU-IGN SW-NS SW wire is not normally used in a Coyote installation. Including through the RF clutch safety switch and to the starter solenoid as shown in the RF wiring harness schematic. I normally remove those wires completely. But again can be capped at both ends if not removed The small terminal on the starter solenoid should only have the Coyote harness starter lead.

The other two connections on the ignition switch look OK.

Hopefully that changes things for the better.

Thanks a lot, Paul! That is really helpful - we'll get that done this weekend. I don't know how you know all this stuff.... :)

[PeteMeindl]

This weekend we worked on the fuel leak on the fuel return right at the gas tank and started on the ignition issues we've been having. The good news is we found a spare end to a flexible fuel line and we went ahead and installed that in place of the one where the leak was and tested it out - no leak! So that's great news. I think the engine runs now without any leaks. :) We also started to try to debug the ignition following Paul's advice - didn't quite get that finished though as it was a busy weekend. Next weekend we may be able to give go carting a try - hopefully! :)

[PeteMeindl]

Hi guys! Sorry it's been a while since we've posted - it's been a busy month and we haven't had nearly as much time to devote to the car as we'd like. But we have made a big step - our first couple go-cart drives! :)

Here’s a link (this is our second go-cart drive and first one onto the street):
https://youtu.be/SG-MDPCFSTo

We’ve just cautiously driven it up and down our little dead-end road but things seemed to work ok, which was really exciting for us. We’ve just been in 1st and reverse so far but the car felt pretty good!

A couple minor notes:
- We had some whining from the power steering but after adding some more fluid and following the ps bleeding instructions, this went away. The power steering works, which is a good sign.
- The fan went on after a while which I was happy to see as well.
- Oil and coolant levels seem to be ok. We also don’t seem to have any leaks at present.

There are a few things we’re still working on figuring out:
- The biggest issue we’ve been having is with the ignition switch. As some of you know, this has stumped us for a while. With our factory five ignition switch, even without the key in the ignition, when we turn on the battery cut off switch, the fuel pump kicks on and the dash gauges light up. We’ve tried testing this a number of different ways and also have bought a new generic ignition switch.
- With the new generic ignition switch, we solve one of the problems as the fuel pump waits to kick in until we turn the key – so that’s good news! But the dash still lights up even when the key is not in the ignition. So we must have a wire incorrectly connecting the gauges. We will need to figure this out… Any tips on this one?
- Our speedometer doesn’t seem to be working yet. Whenever the dash is powered up, regardless of whether we are moving or not, it registers somewhere in the 80-100 mph range. Maybe that's the speed the car is saying it wants to go, rather than the 5-10 mph I've driven it so far? ;)

Let me know if you guys have any suggestions! But overall, we’re excited and happy to be at this point. In some ways, I feel like this is the biggest step! ☺

[chmhasy]

Congrats on go-carting

[GoDadGo]

Congratulations From The Dark Dart Side!

[MSumners]

Congrats!

[edwardb]

There are a few things we’re still working on figuring out:
- The biggest issue we’ve been having is with the ignition switch. As some of you know, this has stumped us for a while. With our factory five ignition switch, even without the key in the ignition, when we turn on the battery cut off switch, the fuel pump kicks on and the dash gauges light up. We’ve tried testing this a number of different ways and also have bought a new generic ignition switch.
- With the new generic ignition switch, we solve one of the problems as the fuel pump waits to kick in until we turn the key – so that’s good news! But the dash still lights up even when the key is not in the ignition. So we must have a wire incorrectly connecting the gauges. We will need to figure this out… Any tips on this one?
- Our speedometer doesn’t seem to be working yet. Whenever the dash is powered up, regardless of whether we are moving or not, it registers somewhere in the 80-100 mph range... Maybe that's the speed the car is saying it wants to go, rather than the 5-10 mph I've driven it so far? ;)

Congrats on your go-kart run! Coyote sounds good (normal...) and glad to see you're taking it easy. Some go-karts drives I see make me nervous. For your questions:

- Ignition switch: Sounds like progress since the non-FFR switch is more normal. While I've heard of failures of the FFR switch, I wouldn't say it's reported a lot. Positive they're wired exactly the same? It's real easy to use a VOM or continuity tester to test the switch. With one lead attached to the battery terminal: OFF position: No continuity to any of the other terminals. ACC position: Continuity only to the ACC terminal. RUN position: Continuity only to the ACC and IGN terminals. START position: Continuity only to the start (blue wire) and IGN terminals. Since your FFR switch is loose you could check and see if this is how it's working. If so, no reason why it shouldn't work installed in the car.

- Dash lights: Positive that's the only thing that's powered when your battery switch is on and the key is off? Only things that should work are the headlight circuit, radio memory (if you're using it), courtesy lights (part of the headlight circuit), brake lights, and horn. Nothing else should be working. If that's the case, then sounds like maybe your dash lights are wired incorrectly. They're all daisy chained together and should go the white dash light wire from the RF dash harness. This is really basic, but are you positive your headlight switch is off? The dash lights would come on in the first and second position. Along with other exterior lights, but don't see that you have them installed yet. Also check the position of the knob, rotated all the way counter-clockwise, you would be in full dim plus the courtesy circuit would be on. Rotate it to the right and see if the lights dim or go off. Not positive since I haven't done Autometer gauges. But I'm thinking they dim with the headlight knob as opposed to the Speedhut gauges that have required an inverter.

- Speedo: I'm assuming you have it wired to the two speed sensor wires per the Autometer instructions. Did you calibrate the speedo? Your Autometer instructions spell out how to do that (takes a 2 mile measured course) and I'm betting that step hasn't been completed.

[PeteMeindl]

Congrats on your go-kart run! Coyote sounds good (normal...) and glad to see you're taking it easy. Some go-karts drives I see make me nervous. For your questions:

- Ignition switch: Sounds like progress since the non-FFR switch is more normal. While I've heard of failures of the FFR switch, I wouldn't say it's reported a lot. Positive they're wired exactly the same? It's real easy to use an VOM or continuity tester to test the switch. With one lead attached to the battery terminal: OFF position: No continuity to any of the other terminals. ACC position: Continuity only to the ACC terminal. RUN position: Continuity only to the ACC and IGN terminals. START position: Continuity only to the start (blue wire) and IGN terminals. Since your FFR switch is loose you could check and see if this is how it's working. If so, no reason why it shouldn't work installed in the car.

- Dash lights: Positive that's the only thing that's powered when your battery switch is on and the key is off? Only things that should work are the headlight circuit, radio memory (if you're using it), courtesy lights (part of the headlight circuit), brake lights, and horn. Nothing else should be working. If that's the case, then sounds like maybe your dash lights are wired incorrectly. They're all daisy chained together and should go the white dash light wire from the RF dash harness. This is really basic, but are you positive your headlight switch is off? The dash lights would come on in the first and second position. Along with other exterior lights, but don't see that you have them installed yet. Also check the position of the knob, rotated all the way counter-clockwise, you would be in full dim plus the courtesy circuit would be on. Rotate it to the right and see if the lights dim or go off. Not positive since I haven't done Autometer gauges. But I'm thinking they dim with the headlight knob as opposed to the Speedhut gauges that have required an inverter.

- Speedo: I'm assuming you have it wired to the two speed sensor wires per the Autometer instructions. Did you calibrate the speedo? Your Autometer instructions spell out how to do that (takes a 2 mile measured course) and I'm betting that step hasn't been completed.

Thank you, Paul! As always, your comments are very helpful. We'll try those continuity tests on the ignition switch next weekend. Your instructions will really help us narrow this down.
Secondly, wow - great comment on the dash lights. I didn't realize this could all be linked to the headlights! So i hadn't even thought about that and i don't know if they are on or off. And if the dash goes on when the headlights go on, that could be the cause of this whole issue. I'll look forward to checking this out - this is great! And i haven't calibrated the speedometer - so that's my problem there!

Thank you for answering all my questions. Have a great week!

[edwardb]

...on the dash lights. I didn't realize this could all be linked to the headlights! So i hadn't even thought about that and i don't know if they are on or off. And if the dash goes on when the headlights go on, that could be the cause of this whole issue...

Right. The dash (instrument) lights are powered through the headlight switch. Same as all DD's. If the parking lights or all lights including headlights are on, the dash lights will also be on.

[edwardb]

...on the dash lights. I didn't realize this could all be linked to the headlights! So i hadn't even thought about that and i don't know if they are on or off. And if the dash goes on when the headlights go on, that could be the cause of this whole issue...

Right. The dash (instrument) lights are powered through the headlight switch. Same as all DD's. If the parking lights or all lights including headlights are on, the dash lights will also be on.

[GTBradley]

Congrats on getting on the road Pete!

[tt400]

Good job getting your car done. Now enjoy

[PeteMeindl]

This weekend we spent some time working on trying to solve some of our electrical issues. The main problem had been that even with the ignition in the off position, we still had power going to the dash.
The good news: Thank you to Paul as his suggestion about the headlight switch on the dash was a big help! We didn't realized that our headlight switch was in the on position and thus we were getting backlit gauges even with the ignition in the off position. When we turn the headlights off, all the backlit gauges go out - so that's great news! Thank you, Paul!
The stuff we are still working on:
- Although all the backlit gauges go out when we turn off the headlights, the odometer within the speedometer is still lit up. The backlight of the speedometer goes out but the odometer stays on.
- The voltage gauge, while not backlit, still seems to show a reading other than the needle pointing to the far left, even with the headlights off. This is also the one gauge that doesn't get backlit when we turn on the headlights.
- We're trying to diagnose the ignition switch per Paul's advice. I'll get back to you guys once we've narrowed this down. I wish we had had more time this weekend.
- The headlight switch shaft doesn't seem to be gripping correctly. I think i'm not supposed to be able to pull the shaft out without pushing the release button on the headlight control housing. But it just comes right out if you pull it. I cant seem to get it to lock in there.
Hope everyone's doing well!

[Papa]

Pete,

If you just turn the key from the on/run position to the off position, the gauge needles will stay where they were. If you go to the ACC position, the gauges will zero for a short time and then go to their reading positions. I always go to the ACC position until the gauges zero and then switch to the Off position.

Dave

[PeteMeindl]

Pete,

If you just turn the key from the on/run position to the off position, the gauge needles will stay where they were. If you go to the ACC position, the gauges will zero for a short time and then go to their reading positions. I always go to the ACC position until the gauges zero and then switch to the Off position.

Dave

Thanks, Dave! I'll try that out. All these pointers are a big help to us - thanks!

[edwardb]

- Although all the backlit gauges go out when we turn off the headlights, the odometer within the speedometer is still lit up. The backlight of the speedometer goes out but the odometer stays on. The voltage gauge, while not backlit, still seems to show a reading other than the needle pointing to the far left, even with the headlights off. This is also the one gauge that doesn't get backlit when we turn on the headlights.

With Speedhut gauges, the needles seem to wander around randomly when powered off. Then when powered on, typically sweep to zero and then to the appropriate setting, e.g. voltage, temp, pressure, etc. I've not noticed any kind of special sequence is necessary for power up or down. Having not installed Autometer gauges like yours, can't verify whether they do the same thing or not. But one of the big differences is that the Speedhut gauges come with daisy chains with connectors for the gauge lighting and power. So it's pretty simple to clip them all together and then have a single connection to the RF harness for power, lighting, and ground. Once complete, they either all work or none work. For your Autometer gauges, however, you have to do all the individual gauge hook-ups. If your ignition switch is wired wrong or defective, all are going to act the same way. Along with anything else on a defective ACC or IGN circuit. The fact that you have individual issues (speedo trip odometer stays on, voltage gauge stays on, single gauge lighting doesn't work) I'm guessing you have some mis-connections in your dash wiring. That's where I'd be looking once you've eliminated the ignition switch. I'm assuming you followed the RF Chassis Wiring Instructions for the Autometer gauges. There it shows making your own daisy chains and hooking up the individual gauges. Somewhere in there you may have some errors.


- The headlight switch shaft doesn't seem to be gripping correctly. I think i'm not supposed to be able to pull the shaft out without pushing the release button on the headlight control housing. But it just comes right out if you pull it. I cant seem to get it to lock in there.

Typically that triangular shaft clicks into place when you push it in. Maybe twist it to make sure it's oriented properly. The fact that you didn't know it was on is a little strange though. It should have been sticking out and obvious that it wasn't off. I've actually found that shaft is typically a little too long, and even when pushed all the way in it still sticks out a bit. Which I normally adjust by removing the knob and shortening it a bit. So if you're pushing it all the way in without any resistance or locking, it's possible you have a defective switch. But obviously no way to confirm that. You're right though. The button is normally only used to remove it. You pull the knob out to the second (headlight) position where it should stop. Then hold the button down. It should pull all the way out.

[PeteMeindl]

With Speedhut gauges, the needles seem to wander around randomly when powered off. Then when powered on, typically sweep to zero and then to the appropriate setting, e.g. voltage, temp, pressure, etc. I've not noticed any kind of special sequence is necessary for power up or down. Having not installed Autometer gauges like yours, can't verify whether they do the same thing or not. But one of the big differences is that the Speedhut gauges come with daisy chains with connectors for the gauge lighting and power. So it's pretty simple to clip them all together and then have a single connection to the RF harness for power, lighting, and ground. Once complete, they either all work or none work. For your Autometer gauges, however, you have to do all the individual gauge hook-ups. If your ignition switch is wired wrong or defective, all are going to act the same way. Along with anything else on a defective ACC or IGN circuit. The fact that you have individual issues (speedo trip odometer stays on, voltage gauge stays on, single gauge lighting doesn't work) I'm guessing you have some mis-connections in your dash wiring. That's where I'd be looking once you've eliminated the ignition switch. I'm assuming you followed the RF Chassis Wiring Instructions for the Autometer gauges. There it shows making your own daisy chains and hooking up the individual gauges. Somewhere in there you may have some errors.



Typically that triangular shaft clicks into place when you push it in. Maybe twist it to make sure it's oriented properly. The fact that you didn't know it was on is a little strange though. It should have been sticking out and obvious that it wasn't off. I've actually found that shaft is typically a little too long, and even when pushed all the way in it still sticks out a bit. Which I normally adjust by removing the knob and shortening it a bit. So if you're pushing it all the way in without any resistance or locking, it's possible you have a defective switch. But obviously no way to confirm that. You're right though. The button is normally only used to remove it. You pull the knob out to the second (headlight) position where it should stop. Then hold the button down. It should pull all the way out.

Thanks, Paul! Yeah, your point about something being wrong in our series of dash wiring makes a lot of sense. We will go over each part of gauge wiring and see where we made a mistake once we nail down the ignition switch issue. Interesting about the headlight switch. I'll play around with it some more - ours does seem to have the shaft go all the way in and yet you can still easily pull it right out without pushing the button on the housing. I've read elsewhere some people have had to just jiggle the shaft a little bit to get it to lock in so maybe that will work.

Thank you for your help! We really appreciate it! Hopefully we will figure this out soon. :)

[PeteMeindl]

Hi guys, We spent some time today trying to figure out our wiring problems. It's a little like the blind trying to lead the blind unfortunately... but i think we might have made a little progress. A little... Just to refresh people on one of our problems: when using our factory five ignition, our fuel pump turns on whenever we turn on the battery cut off switch even when the ignition switch is in the off position. One possibility we explored was that the ignition switch was somehow providing a connection between the red battery wire and the orange ignition wire even in the off position. However, after a bunch of multimeter testing (thank you, Paul, for the good guidance on this!), i think the problem isn't the switch, it's that we have connectivity between the red battery wire and the brown acc wire somewhere in our wiring system outside of the switch. And then I think what happens with our switch is that we have connectivity from the brown to the orange within the ignition switch (even when it is off) and this turns on the fuel pump even when the ignition is in the off position.

We have tried a generic ignition switch before and the fuel pump did not turn on in the off position. Why? With the other ignition switch we bought, there isn't connectivity between ACC and Ignition in the off position and so that's why we didn't get this issue when we tried the generic, non ff, switch.

At least I think that's what's going on. But again, this is the blind leading the blind so we could have misdiagnosed this.

So, I think that means we need to figure out where the connectivity is somewhere in our wires between the red battery wire and the brown acc wire. And that this connectivity is probably a mistake. Does that make sense to you guys? If anyone's run into this before or has spotted an area where a typical amateur idiot would make this sort of mistake, your thoughts would be very very welcome as we're not really sure where to begin in terms of tracking this down.

Thanks, guys! Hope everyone is doing well and enjoying the weekend.

[edwardb]

Hoped that someone else would see something and jump in. But not so far. It’s interesting, I guess, that the FF ignition switch has continuity between the IGN and ACC terminals when in the off position. I have a spare one here and was able to confirm that it does. Didn’t know that but shouldn’t matter. In the off position, there is no continuity between the BAT position (the only one with +12V power in) and any of the other terminals. The fact that your generic switch doesn’t have continuity between the IGN and ACC terminals when in the off position is perhaps a clue, but I’m not seeing it yet. I do feel confident saying that I don’t think the problem is the ignition switch. It’s somewhere else. I have a couple ideas but need to understand these specific points. Some of this may even have been discussed before. But, to be honest, a little bit losing track. Please respond to each, maybe even referencing the numbers.

1. When you say the “pump runs” when the master disconnect is switched on, even when the ignition switch is off, does it run continuously? Or just run briefly and then shut off? This is a very important point and need to understand exactly what the pump is doing.

2. There was a discussion early on about the brown alternator wire. Did you remove that wire at the alternator and the ignition switch? In other words, that wire is completely gone or both ends are not connected to anything and isolated.

3. There’s no other connection to the alternator other than the large red battery wire and the Coyote harness connection?

4. When the master disconnect is on and the ignition key is off, what other circuits are active? This also is a very important point. Looking at the RF harness schematic, the only circuits that should be active when the ignition key is off are those listed in the BATT FED section. Headlight SW, brake, horn, and cooling fan. Nothing else from the ACC FED and IGN FED sections should be alive. Please confirm exactly what’s on and off in detail with the key in the off position.

[PeteMeindl]

Thank you, Paul! I’ve copied your questions here and put our answers in following each question. Hopefully this is helpful! We don't have all the answers yet to each of the power questions but it looks like there is a lot more power going to things than we should have, unfortunately...

Paul Question 1. When you say the “pump runs” when the master disconnect is switched on, even when the ignition switch is off, does it run continuously? Or just run briefly and then shut off? This is a very important point and need to understand exactly what the pump is doing.

Answer 1: The pump runs (makes some noise) for 1-2 seconds and then is quiet.

Paul Question 2. There was a discussion early on about the brown alternator wire. Did you remove that wire at the alternator and the ignition switch? In other words, that wire is completely gone or both ends are not connected to anything and isolated.

Answer 2: Yes, I think we did this correctly on both ends. Here's a picture of our ignition switch with an arrow pointing to the brown alt wire we disconnected:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=117108&d=1572822363

And here's the brown wire at the alternator:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=117110&d=1572822376


Paul Question 3. There’s no other connection to the alternator other than the large red battery wire and the Coyote harness connection?

Answer 3: Yes, that's correct from what i can see. Here's a picture showing the 2 connections to the alternator:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=117109&d=1572822370


Paul Question 4. When the master disconnect is on and the ignition key is off, what other circuits are active? This also is a very important point. Looking at the RF harness schematic, the only circuits that should be active when the ignition key is off are those listed in the BATT FED section. Headlight SW, brake, horn, and cooling fan. Nothing else from the ACC FED and IGN FED sections should be alive. Please confirm exactly what’s on and off in detail with the key in the off position.

Answer 4:

BATT FED:
Headlights: power on. If I pull out the shaft 2 clicks, I get 12v at low beam wire. It also turns the gauge lights on if you pull out shaft to the 1st or 2nd click. Incidentally, I can't seem to get the headlight shaft to lock in the headlight switch. I may try to buy a new one. Paul, I think you've replaced yours before, right?
Brake: power on. I tested right at the switch by the brake pedal and got power
Horn: power on. The horn is loud in the garage with the door's closed!
Cooling Fan: Hmmm... I don't have power in the wire down by the fan but I think i shouldn't unless the fan is being told to turn on. So do i test this on the little loop on the fuse box? Picture below. Or is there a better place to test this?
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=117111&d=1572822381


Here's where things start to go awry... Lots of power all over the place when it shouldn't be there...

ACC FED:
Gauges: odometer lights up on speedometer. Other gauges not lit if headlights off. Gauges light up when you turn on the headlights (except for volt gauge... geez, i can't even have my problems be consistent...).
Wiper: power on.
Heater: power on.

IGN FED:
Fuel pump: power on for 1-2 seconds when i connect the battery and then quiet
EFI: where do i test this one? Sorry i'm not sure...
Choke: power on.
Turn Signal: power on when you turn the turn signal on

Sorry I couldn't answer all these questions yet. But it definitely sounds like we've somehow hooked things up such that we have power to almost everything even when the key is in the OFF position...

Thank you very much for your help and suggestions! Have a great week, everyone.

[edwardb]

Ok. Good thorough responses and pictures are always helpful. So here are my conclusions based on what you checked:

- Fuel pump appears to be wired correctly and is being controlled by the Coyote PCM. That's the reason it's running only briefly when power is first applied, shuts off, and then of course has to be running once you start the engine. Which you've accomplished. Also tells me the Coyote Ignition Relay Trigger (Coyote pigtail light green) and Starter Motor Request (Coyote pigtail light blue) are properly getting their +12V from the RF harness, or none of that would be working. So nothing else to do there IMO.

- Alternator appears to be wired correctly, and that brown alternator wire isn't causing any issues. Personally, I'd remove it. Or at least do something different than electrical tape, which I am not a fan of.

- Based on all your testing, it appears that all the ACC FED and IGN FED circuits are active, even with the ignition key off. Not just individual circuits which might mean a crossed wire somewhere perhaps. In theory, the only way for that to happen, unless something is wrong with your wiring harness or panel (which I doubt for something this major) is for one or both of the BRN ACC FEED -> IGN SW and ORG-IGN FEED -> IGN SW to be getting unswitched battery +12V. There's simply no other way, again assuming the harness isn't defective in some way, for the voltage to be getting to those parts of the panel except through those wires. If you study the wiring diagram closely, you can see those are the only wires bringing +12V into the panel.

- A defective ignition switch is a possibility, which you linked to in another thread in an earlier post. But you've tried a generic ignition switch. Assuming it has the same electrical characteristics, and you hooked the wires to it properly, it did not confirm a defective switch. Other than the continuity between ACC and IGN in the off position which the FF switch has and your generic switch does not. That would perhaps explain how +12V is getting to both ACC and IGN with the key off. But doesn't explain how one or the other has it in the first place. Wouldn't seem necessary, but getting another FF ignition switch might be an option. FF is showing them in stock. I have a spare one I'd sell, but you could probably get it quicker from Factory Five since they're close.

- I'm assuming, based on everything you've described, that when you did your first starts, the only way you were able to stop the running engine was to switch off the master disconnect. That would be consistent with everything you've said. If it stops when the key is turned off, my head will explode. :confused:

So, to be honest, I'm running out of ideas. At this point, I have only two suggestions:

1. In an earlier post (#321, https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?28989-Meindl-Mk-IV-Build&p=379058&viewfull=1#post379058) you described and illustrated some wonky wiring that a bunch of follow-up posts described how to do differently. Has all that been removed? Because you said you installed a master disconnect, you should only have the following:
- One side of master disconnect: (1) Main power cable from battery and (2) cable to the front post of the PDB through the supplied 250 amp megafuse. Nothing more.
- Other side of master disconnect: (1) Power cable to the large post on the starter solenoid and (2) three wires from the RF harness: RED-BATTERY FEED, RED-ALTERNATOR FD, RED-IGN SW -> SOL. Nothing more.
- Starter solenoid: (1) Power cable on the large post from the master disconnect mentioned previously and (2) starter wire from the Coyote harness on the small post. Nothing more.
Hopefully I didn't miss anything. Any other wires other than those listed, especially anything you may have added yourself, could potentially cause +12V to be fed unintentionally and must be removed.

2. I think I mentioned this before, but don't recall a specific answer. To troubleshoot further, I would selectively remove wires from the ignition switch one at a time and confirm it does what's expected. In all cases, test with the master disconnect switch on and the ignition switch off. These tests are assuming the ignition switch itself is not defective.
- With the two red BAT wires disconnected (RED HDLT SW 1 FEED and RED-IGN SW -> SOL) everything RF related should be dead. No BATT FED, ACC FED, or IGN FED circuits should be active. Check them all. If any have voltage with those two wires disconnected, then voltage is coming from another source which is a problem.
- With the ACC wire disconnected (BRN-ACC FEED -> IGN SW), and the red BAT wires back on, there should be no power to any ACC FED or IGN FED circuits.
- With the IGN wire disconnected (ORG-IGN FEED -> IGN SW), and all the other wires back on, there also should be no power to any ACC FED or IGN FED circuits.

That's all I can think of at the moment. It seems voltage is coming from somewhere not expected, and these two points are to help chase it down. Oh and for the easy one, yes I have replaced headlight switches before. I use a genuine branded ACDelco D1588 switch. It's the exact connector and form factor as the kit supplied generic switch, and IMO better quality. Less than $20 on Amazon. Doesn't come with the nut or knob and shaft. But you can use the ones you have. Just make sure to get the actual ACDelco branded one.

[PeteMeindl]

Thank you, Paul! We really appreciate your advice. There are lots of good things you mentioned for us to work on this weekend but this evening we couldn't resist so we put off some other non-car things that needed doing and headed out to the garage to check out a couple things and here's a quick report:

- Good news in that your head does not need to explode :) the engine continues to run even when you turn the ignition switch to off. Interestingly, you can shut off the engine by turning the key to ACC, and that's what we've been doing. Then we turn the key to off and pull out the key.

- We did some quick tests tonight with the 2 red BAT wires disconnected from the ignition and the battery hooked up - where everything RF related should be dead. However, even with the 2 red BAT wires disconnected, we get power to the BAT FED (parking lights, brake sensor, horn all had power), ACC FED (wiper, radio, heater all had power), and IGN FED (Choke and turn signal had power). So we are getting power to everything even with power not going to the ignition swift via the 2 red BAT wires. Hmmmm...

We will perform the rest of your tests this weekend and get back to you with our results. I'm going to walk through all the wiring and note anyplace where i think we could be getting power in there. I think we're narrowing in on it - thank you very much for all of your help!!! We owe you quite a few rides in the car once we are done! :)

[Papa]

Cooling Fan: Hmmm... I don't have power in the wire down by the fan but I think i shouldn't unless the fan is being told to turn on. So do i test this on the little loop on the fuse box? Picture below. Or is there a better place to test this?

There should be +12v at the fan power wire when the relay is triggered. The fan relay is triggered by the fan control (green thermo control wire), which is the ground that completes the circuit to engage the relay. There are two locations in the harness where you'll find the green thermo control wire; one in the bundle of sensor wires at the top of the engine and one at the fan wiring plug under the radiator. Make sure your fan is wired with the blue (+12v) and black (ground) wires. If these are connected correctly, touching either of the green wires to a chassis ground will turn on the fan. I'll let those familiar with the Coyote wiring chime in if there are other ways to let the Coyote PCM control the fan, but on my Holley EFI, I connected the EFI fan control wire (-) to the green thermo control wire.

[Papa]

Thank you, Paul! We really appreciate your advice. There are lots of good things you mentioned for us to work on this weekend but this evening we couldn't resist so we put off some other non-car things that needed doing and headed out to the garage to check out a couple things and here's a quick report:

- Good news in that your head does not need to explode :) the engine continues to run even when you turn the ignition switch to off. Interestingly, you can shut off the engine by turning the key to ACC, and that's what we've been doing. Then we turn the key to off and pull out the key.

- We did some quick tests tonight with the 2 red BAT wires disconnected from the ignition and the battery hooked up - where everything RF related should be dead. However, even with the 2 red BAT wires disconnected, we get power to the BAT FED (parking lights, brake sensor, horn all had power), ACC FED (wiper, radio, heater all had power), and IGN FED (Choke and turn signal had power). So we are getting power to everything even with power not going to the ignition swift via the 2 red BAT wires. Hmmmm...

We will perform the rest of your tests this weekend and get back to you with our results. I'm going to walk through all the wiring and note anyplace where i think we could be getting power in there. I think we're narrowing in on it - thank you very much for all of your help!!! We owe you quite a few rides in the car once we are done! :)

Now you're going to make my head explode! :) Start at the battery and trace anything that touches the battery + wire. Are you tying multiple things together where the battery wire terminates? Is that on your cutoff switch, at the starter, some other post or block? Check for any other wires close to the battery connections to make sure nothing is making contact that shouldn't be.

[edwardb]

Thank you, Paul! We really appreciate your advice. There are lots of good things you mentioned for us to work on this weekend but this evening we couldn't resist so we put off some other non-car things that needed doing and headed out to the garage to check out a couple things and here's a quick report:

- Good news in that your head does not need to explode :) the engine continues to run even when you turn the ignition switch to off. Interestingly, you can shut off the engine by turning the key to ACC, and that's what we've been doing. Then we turn the key to off and pull out the key.

- We did some quick tests tonight with the 2 red BAT wires disconnected from the ignition and the battery hooked up - where everything RF related should be dead. However, even with the 2 red BAT wires disconnected, we get power to the BAT FED (parking lights, brake sensor, horn all had power), ACC FED (wiper, radio, heater all had power), and IGN FED (Choke and turn signal had power). So we are getting power to everything even with power not going to the ignition swift via the 2 red BAT wires.

With the two red BAT wires disconnected from the ignition switch, you would still have power to the BATT FED section of the panel since it gets a direct feed from elsewhere. But definitely not for the other two. Your descriptions appear to confirm there is unwanted +12V from somewhere else. Maybe on the ACC side somewhere. Back to that brown ACC/Alternator wire. But based on your review and pics seems to be out of the circuit. Will stay tuned for the rest of your tests.


There should be +12v at the fan power wire when the relay is triggered. The fan relay is triggered by the fan control (green thermo control wire), which is the ground that completes the circuit to engage the relay. There are two locations in the harness where you'll find the green thermo control wire; one in the bundle of sensor wires at the top of the engine and one at the fan wiring plug under the radiator. Make sure your fan is wired with the blue (+12v) and black (ground) wires. If these are connected correctly, touching either of the green wires to a chassis ground will turn on the fan. I'll let those familiar with the Coyote wiring chime in if there are other ways to let the Coyote PCM control the fan, but on my Holley EFI, I connected the EFI fan control wire (-) to the green thermo control wire.

For a "pure" Coyote installation like this one, the RF fan wiring, relay, green thermo control wire, etc. aren't used. The Coyote control pack has the +12V wire for the fan. Ground the other side and the Coyote PCM takes it from there. The only way to test it is to observe it's powered on when the engine reaches the appropriate temp. In this case, whatever is going on is in the RF side, and since the engine runs the Coyote system is getting power and it's safe to assume the fan will run when called for.

[PeteMeindl]

Now you're going to make my head explode! :) Start at the battery and trace anything that touches the battery + wire. Are you tying multiple things together where the battery wire terminates? Is that on your cutoff switch, at the starter, some other post or block? Check for any other wires close to the battery connections to make sure nothing is making contact that shouldn't be.

Thanks, Dave! Some good news - i think the fan is working the way Paul mentioned it should. On our little go-cart excursion and other times where we've run the engine for a while, the fan has kicked on after a few minutes. Thanks for your suggestion on following the battery + wire and seeing where this is making a connection... we will do that. With you guys' help, we will track it down! :)

Thanks!

[PeteMeindl]

With the two red BAT wires disconnected from the ignition switch, you would still have power to the BATT FED section of the panel since it gets a direct feed from elsewhere. But definitely not for the other two. Your descriptions appear to confirm there is unwanted +12V from somewhere else. Maybe on the ACC side somewhere. Back to that brown ACC/Alternator wire. But based on your review and pics seems to be out of the circuit. Will stay tuned for the rest of your tests.

Thanks, Paul! Got it. I was thinking that nothing RF related should have power if the 2 red BAT wires were disconnected from the ignition switch, but thank you for clarifying that the BAT FED items should have power. So at least that part is ok! :) We'll get back with the full set of results this weekend.

Just thinking out loud here, but I wonder why the engine does not shut off when the ignition is in OFF but the engine does shut off when the ignition is moved to ACC...

[edwardb]

Just thinking out loud here, but I wonder why the engine does not shut off when the ignition is in OFF but the engine does shut off when the ignition is moved to ACC...

Once your Coyote is running, it's completely self-contained based on the battery power to the PDB plus the +12V signal to the Coyote pigtail ignition sense wire telling the PCM to "stay running." I'm assuming you have that pigtail connected to the RF EFI wire, which is what the FF instructions say to use and is and pretty typical. That's an IGN FED circuit. You mentioned before about the continuity between the IGN and ACC terminals on the FF ignition switch when it's off. Which I confirmed. So if the ACC circuit is somehow getting voltage from somewhere besides the ignition switch, turning the key to off would still give the IGN terminal power and the engine keep running. At the ACC position, the only continuity is between the BAT and ACC terminals. IGN terminal gets nothing from the BAT terminal, and apparently isn't from anywhere else either. So the engine shuts off. That's my logic for suspecting the ACC circuit is the prime suspect. Confusing enough??

[PeteMeindl]

Once your Coyote is running, it's completely self-contained based on the battery power to the PDB plus the +12V signal to the Coyote pigtail ignition sense wire telling the PCM to "stay running." I'm assuming you have that pigtail connected to the RF EFI wire, which is what the FF instructions say to use and is and pretty typical. That's an IGN FED circuit. You mentioned before about the continuity between the IGN and ACC terminals on the FF ignition switch when it's off. Which I confirmed. So if the ACC circuit is somehow getting voltage from somewhere besides the ignition switch, turning the key to off would still give the IGN terminal power and the engine keep running. At the ACC position, the only continuity is between the BAT and ACC terminals. IGN terminal gets nothing from the BAT terminal, and apparently isn't from anywhere else either. So the engine shuts off. That's my logic for suspecting the ACC circuit is the prime suspect. Confusing enough??

Ha! Yes, this whole thing is confusing enough... :) although, believe it or not, some of what you're saying makes some sense to me! And I think it's helpful in narrowing in on this problem. Thank you, Paul!

[PeteMeindl]

Just a quick update: Today we started running through the list of tests Paul laid out for us to try to isolate our issue regarding where we are getting power when we shouldn't be. During out testing, I think we must've touched our probe from our multimeter onto something while it was touching another wire and we blew a fuse... We looked for a spare but we didn't have any so we'll have to run to autozone this week and pick up some. Unfortunately, this delayed our planned tests. We will have the full set of test results hopefully next weekend. Thanks, guys! Hope you all have a good week!

[PeteMeindl]

Hi guys,
So we got some new fuses and installed them as well as a new headlight switch and now we're back in business trying to test things out to figure out where we are getting power when we shouldn't be. Thank you to Paul for his detailed questions about how to isolate this issue. Here's what we've found so far. I think we've made some progress but still have a ways to go.

Here's Paul's advice #1:
1. In an earlier post (#321, https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...l=1#post379058) you described and illustrated some wonky wiring that a bunch of follow-up posts described how to do differently. Has all that been removed? Because you said you installed a master disconnect, you should only have the following:
- One side of master disconnect: (1) Main power cable from battery and (2) cable to the front post of the PDB through the supplied 250 amp megafuse. Nothing more.
- Other side of master disconnect: (1) Power cable to the large post on the starter solenoid and (2) three wires from the RF harness: RED-BATTERY FEED, RED-ALTERNATOR FD, RED-IGN SW -> SOL. Nothing more.
- Starter solenoid: (1) Power cable on the large post from the master disconnect mentioned previously and (2) starter wire from the Coyote harness on the small post. Nothing more.
Hopefully I didn't miss anything. Any other wires other than those listed, especially anything you may have added yourself, could potentially cause +12V to be fed unintentionally and must be removed.

Our answers
Master disconnect: I think this is correct but let me describe what we've done as we certainly could have it wrong. Here's a picture of our master disconnect with the wires labelled:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=117644&d=1573939455
From what I can tell, this is the way it should be.

Starter solenoid: Hmmm... I thought this was correct but it's possible this could be the source of the problem. I discuss this more below but this seems like a place where we could definitely be getting power into the harness earlier than we want. I'm confident we have the power cable on the solenoid but is the starter wire from the coyote harness the incorrect wire? It seems like the only substantial wire around from the harness but maybe this is wrong. Here's a couple pictures trying to show the situation:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=117645&d=1573939465

This one shows where the wire is coming out of the harness:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=117647&d=1573939483

On to Paul's Advice #2:
2. I think I mentioned this before, but don't recall a specific answer. To troubleshoot further, I would selectively remove wires from the ignition switch one at a time and confirm it does what's expected. In all cases, test with the master disconnect switch on and the ignition switch off. These tests are assuming the ignition switch itself is not defective.
- With the two red BAT wires disconnected (RED HDLT SW 1 FEED and RED-IGN SW -> SOL) everything RF related should be dead. No BATT FED, ACC FED, or IGN FED circuits should be active. Check them all. If any have voltage with those two wires disconnected, then voltage is coming from another source which is a problem.
- With the ACC wire disconnected (BRN-ACC FEED -> IGN SW), and the red BAT wires back on, there should be no power to any ACC FED or IGN FED circuits.
- With the IGN wire disconnected (ORG-IGN FEED -> IGN SW), and all the other wires back on, there also should be no power to any ACC FED or IGN FED circuits.

Our answers
This was a great idea to try to debug things by stepping through disconnecting these wires - I think we found something here. We added a few tests too and this led us to conclude something before we finished all the tests.

-----
Test 1: No wires connected to ignition and battery cutoff switch off.
Expectation: that we have no power to anything
Test results:
BATT FED:
Parking lights: no power
Brake: no power
Horn: no power

ACC FED:
Gauges: do not light up
Radio: no power
Wiper: no power
Heater: no power

IGN FED:
Fuel pump: no sound
Choke: no power
Turn Signal: no power
-----
Ok - this is good news as we don't have any power and this is as we want. I had thought it was possible we might be getting some power even with the battery cutoff switch set to off due to the following connection at the fuse box on the passenger footbox.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=117646&d=1573939474
But fortunately, this wasn't a problem. So all good so far.

-----
Test 2: No wires connected to ignition and battery cutoff switch on.
Expectation: power to the BATT FED items
Test results:
BATT FED:
Parking lights: 12v
Brake: 12v
Horn: works

ACC FED:
Gauges: light up
Radio: has power
Wiper: has power
Heater: has power

IGN FED:
Fuel pump: no sound
Choke: no power
Turn Signal: no power
-----
Ok - trouble here. I think we should have BATT FED power but not the ACC FED. And this is without anything even connected to the ignition switch. So the ACC power isn't coming through the ignition switch.

-----
Test 3: 2 red disconnected from BAT on ignition, but brown to ACC, 2 blue to ST, and orange to IGN still connected at ignition and battery cutoff switch on.
Expectation: power to the BATT FED items
Test results:
BATT FED:
Parking lights: 12v
Brake (brake switch feed): 12v
Horn: works

ACC FED:
Gauges: lit up
Radio: has power
Wiper: has power
Heater: has power

IGN FED:
Fuel pump: on for 1-2 seconds and then quiet
Choke: has power
Turn Signal: 12V
-----
Ah - ok, so it seems that IGN is getting power thru the ignition switch via the connection to ACC.

So, I think, as Paul suspected, the ACC network is the source of our trouble. If we can figure out and eliminate the extra source of power to ACC, then IGN will lose the power it's getting from ACC thru the ignition switch.

We haven't done the final 2 tests from Paul yet but it seems that ACC is really the problem. We tried to trace through where it could be getting power and that let us to post the solenoid pictures above - could that be it? I checked the alternator again and i think that seems ok and I think it's not the source of the power.

Any ideas guys? Thank you! Hope you're all having a good weekend.

[PeteMeindl]

When we were testing for power to try to solve our electrical issues, we blew a fuse that i mentioned before. We replaced the fuse and the car seems to be working as usual except for one thing. Previously, when we had done certain power tests at the headlight wires at the front of the chassis, we were getting power. However, now we don't get power to these headlight wires when doing the same tests and the headlight switch is on. We do get power to the parking lights, though. After doing some research, it sounds like the headlights don't use a fuse but rather a self resetting circuit breaker. But maybe it's not resetting? I'm not quite sure. Do you guys know what might be going on? Thank you!

[edwardb]

Observations/comments from your posts:

- Master disconnect wiring looks OK.

- Starter wiring looks OK. That starter wire you're questioning has to be the Coyote start wire. Otherwise you wouldn't be getting the starter motor function when you turn the key to start. Which you are.

- Extra Coyote wires being questions: Can't identify everything. Yellow 12V Key On wire = don't need. White and white/blue twisted pair CAN Bus wires = don't need. Advise if there are others.

- Based on your testing to date, agreed it seems ACC could be the issue. 12V should be going out onto the BRN-ACC-FEED wire sourced from the red battery wires when the ignition key is on and when the key is in the appropriate position. Measure voltage on the BRN-ACC-FEED wire with it disconnected from the ignition switch. Master disconnect on. Ignition switch position shouldn't matter. It shouldn't have voltage in any case when disconnected. If it does, that's maybe the source. At that point, the problem is either some type of defect in the harness itself. Or perhaps one of the ACC wires is connected to a battery source and backfeeding from the panel. In that case, I'd be checking the heater wire, wiper wire, gauge feed, and radio wires to make sure they're either not connected to anything or are connected properly. Maybe account for each one and report back if you have +12V on the BRN-ACC-FEED wire.

- Yes, I believe the headlight switch has an internal circuit breaker. And I believe it should automatically reset if you tripped it. There's a diagram of the terminals on the headlight switch in the RF wiring manual. Refer to that and check if you have voltage going out to the headlights from there.

Good luck.

[PeteMeindl]

Observations/comments from your posts:

- Master disconnect wiring looks OK.

- Starter wiring looks OK. That starter wire you're questioning has to be the Coyote start wire. Otherwise you wouldn't be getting the starter motor function when you turn the key to start. Which you are.

- Extra Coyote wires being questions: Can't identify everything. Yellow 12V Key On wire = don't need. White and white/blue twisted pair CAN Bus wires = don't need. Advise if there are others.

- Based on your testing to date, agreed it seems ACC could be the issue. 12V should be going out onto the BRN-ACC-FEED wire sourced from the red battery wires when the ignition key is on and when the key is in the appropriate position. Measure voltage on the BRN-ACC-FEED wire with it disconnected from the ignition switch. Master disconnect on. Ignition switch position shouldn't matter. It shouldn't have voltage in any case when disconnected. If it does, that's maybe the source. At that point, the problem is either some type of defect in the harness itself. Or perhaps one of the ACC wires is connected to a battery source and backfeeding from the panel. In that case, I'd be checking the heater wire, wiper wire, gauge feed, and radio wires to make sure they're either not connected to anything or are connected properly. Maybe account for each one and report back if you have +12V on the BRN-ACC-FEED wire.

- Yes, I believe the headlight switch has an internal circuit breaker. And I believe it should automatically reset if you tripped it. There's a diagram of the terminals on the headlight switch in the RF wiring manual. Refer to that and check if you have voltage going out to the headlights from there.

Good luck.

Thanks, Paul! We'll get back to you tomorrow with the latest results!

[PeteMeindl]

Today we dug a little further on our electrical issues. Here are our answers to Paul's questions. Thank you VERY much, Paul! We could never do this without your help! And several others on the forum - thank you!

Paul Question: Extra Coyote wires being questions: Can't identify everything. Yellow 12V Key On wire = don't need. White and white/blue twisted pair CAN Bus wires = don't need. Advise if there are others.

Our Answer:
There are 3 wires in there:
White & blue CAN HS +
White CAN HS –
Yellow 12V Key On
Just what you said. So it looks like we don’t need any of those so that’s ok.

Paul Question: Based on your testing to date, agreed it seems ACC could be the issue. 12V should be going out onto the BRN-ACC-FEED wire sourced from the red battery wires when the ignition key is on and when the key is in the appropriate position. Measure voltage on the BRN-ACC-FEED wire with it disconnected from the ignition switch. Master disconnect on. Ignition switch position shouldn't matter. It shouldn't have voltage in any case when disconnected. If it does, that's maybe the source. At that point, the problem is either some type of defect in the harness itself. Or perhaps one of the ACC wires is connected to a battery source and backfeeding from the panel. In that case, I'd be checking the heater wire, wiper wire, gauge feed, and radio wires to make sure they're either not connected to anything or are connected properly. Maybe account for each one and report back if you have +12V on the BRN-ACC-FEED wire.

Our Answer:
Test for power: BRN-ACC-FEED when it is disconnected from ignition switch, no wires are connected to the ignition switch, and master disconnect is on
Should: Not have power
Result: BRN-ACC-FEED does have power, as we feared. So this is really the heart of our problem. Somehow the ACC is getting power when it should not be….

So one possibility is that ACC is getting power through one of the heater, wiper, radio, or gauge feed. We checked each of those wires first to see if they have power in the above scenario. They all do:
Heater: power on at the end of the heater wire
Wiper: power on at the end of the wiper wire
Radio: power on at the end of the radio wire
Gauge Feed: power on at the fuse box

So we then looked – are any of these wires connected to something that could be supplying the power? For the heater, wiper, and radio, we aren’t using any of those and they are just coiled up and sitting behind the dash. Here’s a picture of those (I apologize for the messy electrical tape... :)
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=117678&d=1574028673

For the gauge feed, I’m not exactly sure where to look. We tested the gauge feed for power at the fuse box in the passenger footbox. Where should I look for the gauge feed wire?

So that’s our situation… Somehow we have power getting to the ACC in some way beyond going through the ignition… We just can’t figure it out…


Paul Question: Yes, I believe the headlight switch has an internal circuit breaker. And I believe it should automatically reset if you tripped it. There's a diagram of the terminals on the headlight switch in the RF wiring manual. Refer to that and check if you have voltage going out to the headlights from there.

Our Answer:
With the headlight switch powered and turned on such that the headlights should be on, we have no power out of high/low beam switch (#6 in the diagram). Not sure what we did here. Maybe we broke the circuit breaker somehow? Maybe we should get a new one...

Overall Thoughts:
It’s good we’re making progress in figuring out that the ACC system is the problem. But just can’t seem to figure out how it is getting power… On another note and in an effort to get something done that we knew we could accomplish, we installed the seat belts today. Those we could do and it felt good! ☺

Have a great week, guys.

[edwardb]

Well, based on those results, agree you're onto something. That ACC wire on the ignition switch most definitely should not measure any voltage when disconnected from the ignition switch. I'm down to two suggestions.

1. Since you have the heater, wiper, and radio wires not connected to anything and insulated, seems they're not the culprits. Only wire left is the gauge feed. Not going to try to guess what it might be, but perhaps something crossed in how you wired behind the dash, gauges, etc. I'd recommend this test: Unplug the three dash harness connectors. That should remove all power from the dash and leave the gauge feed wire ending in one of the connectors. Now check the BRN-ACC-FEED when it is disconnected from the ignition switch and master disconnect on. If it doesn't have power, that would suggest it's your dash wiring. If it still has power, see next point.

2. Have no idea how, but if the BRN-ACC-FEED has +12V with no other ACC wires connected, then something is happening with the fuse panel or the harness. Some type of internal short, assembly error, or whatever. Time to call Ron Francis wiring and get their help.

[PeteMeindl]

Well, based on those results, agree you're onto something. That ACC wire on the ignition switch most definitely should not measure any voltage when disconnected from the ignition switch. I'm down to two suggestions.

1. Since you have the heater, wiper, and radio wires not connected to anything and insulated, seems they're not the culprits. Only wire left is the gauge feed. Not going to try to guess what it might be, but perhaps something crossed in how you wired behind the dash, gauges, etc. I'd recommend this test: Unplug the three dash harness connectors. That should remove all power from the dash and leave the gauge feed wire ending in one of the connectors. Now check the BRN-ACC-FEED when it is disconnected from the ignition switch and master disconnect on. If it doesn't have power, that would suggest it's your dash wiring. If it still has power, see next point.

2. Have no idea how, but if the BRN-ACC-FEED has +12V with no other ACC wires connected, then something is happening with the fuse panel or the harness. Some type of internal short, assembly error, or whatever. Time to call Ron Francis wiring and get their help.

Thank you, Paul! We will try this test out. Glad there's still hope! :) Thank you, again.

[PeteMeindl]

Well, based on those results, agree you're onto something. That ACC wire on the ignition switch most definitely should not measure any voltage when disconnected from the ignition switch. I'm down to two suggestions.

1. Since you have the heater, wiper, and radio wires not connected to anything and insulated, seems they're not the culprits. Only wire left is the gauge feed. Not going to try to guess what it might be, but perhaps something crossed in how you wired behind the dash, gauges, etc. I'd recommend this test: Unplug the three dash harness connectors. That should remove all power from the dash and leave the gauge feed wire ending in one of the connectors. Now check the BRN-ACC-FEED when it is disconnected from the ignition switch and master disconnect on. If it doesn't have power, that would suggest it's your dash wiring. If it still has power, see next point.

Thanks for the suggestions, Paul! More progress here - So we unplugged the three dash harness connectors. When we now check the BRN-ACC-FEED for power when it's disconnected from the ignition switch and the master disconnect on, we get... no power! So this means we made a mistake in the dash wiring, right? And i guess the best thing to do would be to walk through each step in the instructions and see if we did things correctly, right? Thanks a lot!

[edwardb]

Thanks for the suggestions, Paul! More progress here - So we unplugged the three dash harness connectors. When we now check the BRN-ACC-FEED for power when it's disconnected from the ignition switch and the master disconnect on, we get... no power! So this means we made a mistake in the dash wiring, right? And i guess the best thing to do would be to walk through each step in the instructions and see if we did things correctly, right? Thanks a lot!

So that seems to confirm the unwanted +12V showing up on your BRN-ACC-FEED is coming from the brown gauge feed wire originating somewhere in your dash wiring. Yes, you need to look there. But you can narrow the search a little. At least to start. Since the +12V exists with the ignition key off and the headlight switch off, that would suggest only needing to check certain dash circuits that are battery feed circuits, e.g. always on. Looking at the RF wiring diagram, there are only a few on your dash: (1) Red radio memory wire, (2) Dk green horn wire, (3) Pink hazard flasher wire. Start with those. If not connected to anything, make sure the end is properly insulated and not touching anything. If connected to something, disconnect one at a time at test. With your three dash harnesses plugged back together, and the master disconnect on, check the not connected BRN-ACC-FEED for power. If disconnecting one of those wires stops the +12V on the BRN-ACC-FEED wire, that's the likely offender. Can dig deeper if it's one of those. If not one of those, then will need to start going through all the dash wiring. There's also the possibility, although maybe slim, that one of those dash connectors is wired incorrectly. In other words, a pin (or pins) in the wrong location, and the combination just happens to provide this error situation. That's obviously an RF issue, and has happened before although not on the dash harness as I recall.

BTW, the brown gauge feed being hot with the key off, and in turn backfeeding +12V into the BRN-ACC-FEED wire, likely explains why your gauges are always powered on including the display window in the speedo. Also is consistent with my theory on how the ignition key off didn't shut off your engine. The puzzle pieces are starting to fit together. But still more digging to find the source.

[PeteMeindl]

So that seems to confirm the unwanted +12V showing up on your BRN-ACC-FEED is coming from the brown gauge feed wire originating somewhere in your dash wiring. Yes, you need to look there. But you can narrow the search a little. At least to start. Since the +12V exists with the ignition key off and the headlight switch off, that would suggest only needing to check certain dash circuits that are battery feed circuits, e.g. always on. Looking at the RF wiring diagram, there are only a few on your dash: (1) Red radio memory wire, (2) Dk green horn wire, (3) Pink hazard flasher wire. Start with those. If not connected to anything, make sure the end is properly insulated and not touching anything. If connected to something, disconnect one at a time at test. With your three dash harnesses plugged back together, and the master disconnect on, check the not connected BRN-ACC-FEED for power. If disconnecting one of those wires stops the +12V on the BRN-ACC-FEED wire, that's the likely offender. Can dig deeper if it's one of those. If not one of those, then will need to start going through all the dash wiring. There's also the possibility, although maybe slim, that one of those dash connectors is wired incorrectly. In other words, a pin (or pins) in the wrong location, and the combination just happens to provide this error situation. That's obviously an RF issue, and has happened before although not on the dash harness as I recall.

BTW, the brown gauge feed being hot with the key off, and in turn backfeeding +12V into the BRN-ACC-FEED wire, likely explains why your gauges are always powered on including the display window in the speedo. Also is consistent with my theory on how the ignition key off didn't shut off your engine. The puzzle pieces are starting to fit together. But still more digging to find the source.

Thank you, Paul - this is great news. Thank you very much for the continued pointers on where to look and how to narrow in on this. Can't wait for the weekend to dig further!

[PeteMeindl]

First of all, thank you again, Paul, for all of your patient help and guidance! I think we made a bit of a breakthrough over here given your advice! Ok, here’s were we are. First thing we did was plug back in the 3 connections from the dash harness such that the dash harness is now re-connected to the main chassis harness. Then we just double checked that we could replicate our problem which was that our BRN-ACC-FEED wire gets power even when disconnected from the ignition switch. We were able to replicate this problem.

Then, per Paul’s suggestion, we looked at checking what happens if we, one by one, disconnect each of the wires that are BATT fed and also go into the dash. So the question is whether we still get power to the BRN-ACC-FEED wire that is disconnected from the ignition switch when each of these batt fed wires is disconnected.

1) Pink hazard flasher wire: when disconnected from the hazard switch on the dash, we still have power at the BRN-ACC-FEED. So it doesn’t seem that the power is coming through the pink hazard flasher wire.

2) Red radio memory/speedo wire: Whoa! This looks like it could be it! We saw that a red wire was connected to a brown gauge feed wire. What red wire was this? It should have been a red wire from the daisy chain across the gauges but instead it was the red radio mem/speedo wire. Mistake #856 on our part… We are idiots...☺

So, when we disconnected the red and brown wire, the BRN-ACC-FEED at the ignition switch no longer has 12V! Yahoo! Other good news - when we disconnect this one, our odometer light does not go on.

So now we reconnected all the wires that go to our ignition switch and checked the following scenarios for power:

Ignition switch in Off
BATT FED: Has power at ignition switch
ACC FED: No power at ignition switch
IGN FED: No power at ignition switch
So that’s good!

Ignition switch in Acc
BATT FED: Has power at ignition switch
ACC FED: Has power at ignition switch
IGN FED: No power at ignition switch
This looks good too!

Ignition switch in On:
BATT FED: Has power at ignition switch
ACC FED: Has power at ignition switch
IGN FED: Has power at ignition switch
Good news! Thank you, Paul – you really guided us to find that problem. I think it is finally solved thanks to your help! ☺

One other piece of good news with this: Now our headlight wires at the front of the chassis are getting power when they should which had been a problem before.

Given this progress, we now remounted the headlight switch and the ignition switch in the dash as well as cleaned up some odds and ends (like the blinker switch going to the wrong side). We also adjusted the clutch cable a bit – the cable had a little play and you had to depress the clutch pedal quite a bit to get any disengagement of the clutch.

So this is great and morale is high amongst the team. We had thought we might not figure this one out!

Next steps for us: There are a few things we still need to do before we move on to the body.
- Volt gauge: the light on this gauge doesn’t come on when the others do. I’m hoping it’s just burnt out so we’ll get a new bulb and pop it in.
- Install a tach adapter to help the tach be more accurate. I’ll have to read up on how to do this one…
- Learn a little more about gauge calibration. Not just the speedometer, but the odometer too as it just keeps going up, even when the car is just standing still.
- Brake test: I’d like to test the brakes a little bit when we’re going more than the 5-10 mph we’ve done so far.

Then I think we button down the aluminum panels outside the driver footbox and move onto working the body! Thank you, Paul and the forum family!

[Papa]

Congratulations on finding the issue. Sometimes we are just too close to the problem and getting another perspective is what it takes to solve the issue. I had a related issue with mine and found I'd connected the wrong brown wire to the ignition switch. I was certain I'd done it all correctly, and didn't discover my error until I unwrapped the tape I'd put on the ignition switch to replace it.

[edwardb]

Great news! So glad you found it. That voltage had to be coming from somewhere. ;)

[PeteMeindl]

Great news! So glad you found it. That voltage had to be coming from somewhere. ;)

We never would have figured it out without your help - thank you very much, Paul!

[TheBish]

Car in the living room, I love that, my wife would absolutely kill me.

[GTBradley]

Good work Pete and Paul! I made a similar mistake. I think I worked too late one evening and connected battery power to the HATB wire. Weird things happen when you do that and it took a while to figure it out. Everything was powered in ACC position and master switch turned off. It even attempted to start like this when I turned the key to start, which thankfully blew a fuse. Perseverance! You’re getting there.

[PeteMeindl]

This weekend we got out and did a little go carting with the 2 pronged goal of 1) checking to see if our gauges were working and 2) seeing how the brakes seemed. We can really only go up and down our little street which is maybe a tenth of a mile long and has speed bumps so it's not the best go carting situation... but we could still get a feel for these items.

1. Gauges: So I think the gauges are working pretty well. We are using the autometer gauges, by the way. Of the 7 gauges, it looks like all the following had reasonable read outs after running and driving the car for about 15 minutes.
- oil pressure
- oil temp
- fuel level
- water temp
- volt meter
The 2 remaining ones that aren't working yet are the speedometer (which i need to calibrate over a 2 mile drive so we don't expect this to be working yet) and the tach. We've purchased an autometer tach adapter 9117 which we need to hook up and that will fix the tach, I think. I have to research a little about how to install this though. There are 4 wires:
- a red wire which i think i attach to a haat wire
- a black wire which I ground
- a gray wire which I think I attach to the tach gauge
- a red/green which says to attach to the coil positive wire. I'm not exactly sure where that is... Is it the purple wire from the harness that goes into each cylinder?
I'll dig a little more and post some pictures of what i'm talking about as what i've said here is a little vague - sorry!

2. Testing brakes. The brakes work which is good :). And when we're driving along at 15 or so mph, if i hit them hard, we lock up the wheels which is good. I'm not sure if it's just because the tires are a little slick since they are brand new and they slide a ways on the road after I lock them but it definitely feels like the car doesn't stop as quickly as a regular car. Will do some more testing.

I'm leaking a little oil from a couple spots but after tightening things up, all that is gone except for 1 leak by the oil temp sensor. I'll try cranking that one down a little more and hopefully that'll stop the leak.

Oh, also talked to Jeff Kleiner on the phone - excited to have him paint the car down the road!

Hope you all are enjoying the holidays!

[D02G]

Hi Pete,

Are you going to put the body on and go through the CT inspection process before sending to Jeff for paint? I thinking of going that route.

Brian

[chmhasy]

Hi Pete,

Are you going to put the body on and go through the CT inspection process before sending to Jeff for paint? I thinking of going that route.

Brian

I did that and a few people have done that in CT. I went through the inspection process last September with gel-coat. In about 2 years I will send my car out for paint. I wanted the ability to run the car for a few years and shake it out without worrying about the paint. 2 weeks after the inspection I had to pull the motor for a rear main seal leak. I am also going to replace the rear lid with FFrs new rear lid so I don't have to do the Licence plate mod. not a big problem since I don't have paint yet.

Hope this helps



Gary

Oh picture of my car https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?34003-November-2019-POM-WINNER!

[PeteMeindl]

Hi Pete,

Are you going to put the body on and go through the CT inspection process before sending to Jeff for paint? I thinking of going that route.

Brian

Yeah, that is my plan - try to get everything running and in good shape and registered before I send it off for painting. Hopefully we will get there!

[bobm488]

Did your top hose from the engine come with your kit? I didn't get one, do you know the part number?

[PeteMeindl]

Did your top hose from the engine come with your kit? I didn't get one, do you know the part number?

Yeah, the engine came basically as a completed unit with what you see in my pictures - we really didn't have to add anything beyond the power steering pump. But since it came that way, I don't have any part numbers for individual parts on the engine.

[PeteMeindl]

Hi guys, just a quick update on today's progress. We installed the autometer tach adapter 9117 by cutting the purple coil wire in the harness near the computer and inserting the tach adapter in-between. We weren't quite sure if we had the right wire since the tach adapter instructions are for a 99-04 mustang, not a more recent coyote like what we have, but we found a youtube video (actually in German!) where a guy installs the 9117 on a modern coyote and that helped us narrow it down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REfuItUB6EQ
Danke schon, S550 Guru!

Lo-and-Behold, when we started up the car, it started fine and the tach now works - so that's great news!

At this stage, all our gauges work except for the speedometer/odometer and that still needs to be calibrated while driving, which i may not be able to do until we put on the body given I don't think i can go cart the 2 mile calibration distance without a body in our neighborhood without attracting possible police attention...

So just a couple more steps until the body goes on!
1) try to fix the oil leak on the oil temp sensor
2) rebleed the brakes to see if we can get a less spongy pedal feel. We aren't experienced in this so I'm sure we didn't do a world class job in our first go around...
3) go through and tie up any loose wires in the engine bay and anywhere else

[Papa]

Pete,

You're make great progress!

Dave

[PeteMeindl]

Today we started some initial work on the body - just basically building the hood hinges and then attaching some brackets to the underside of the hood.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=118987&d=1576447946

It's exciting to be stepping into this next phase as we start with the body! Although we still have a couple things to tie up and I wanted to get your thoughts on two things, both of them are super naive beginner type questions so I apologize!
1) We still getting some oil leaking out of the oil temp sensor shown here:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=118986&d=1576447757

It's quite tight and I can barely turn it any more. I could crank it just a little bit more but i'm hesitant to put too much force on it. Should I just crank it as hard as I can? One other idea i had was to pull it out and put some white thread seal tape on to make the seal tighter. Would that be a better idea? The downside of that is that the oil will come rushing out... but i think i could just catch that and pour it back in the engine once the oil temp sensor is back in.

2) The brakes feel a little spongy when we go cart. I can lock them up, which is good but i'm wondering if I should re-bleed them. If I do, does that mean I should flush out all the existing brake fluid and start over? Or can I just re-bleed with the fluid in there, making sure that my brake fluid reservoirs always have fluid? Also, I've read you shouldn't use brake fluid that's been opened due to the possibility of moisture absorption. I guess I should follow that? We opened our brake fluid container about half a year ago or so. We used a bike pump and a pressure bleeder valve to do the job last time but I just feel like maybe we didn't do the best job. Maybe I'm just being overly paranoid about the brakes but I guess better safe than sorry...

Thanks a lot for your advice! And again, sorry for all the beginner questions.

[Papa]

Pete,

My recommendation on the leak is to get rid of the Teflon tape on those fittings and go with a PTFE thread sealant like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-80632-Thread-Sealant-PTFE/dp/B000HBNTGY/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2SG8681BOBA2L&keywords=thread+sealer+automotive&qid=1576464072&sprefix=thread+seal%2Caps%2C179&sr=8-3

Dave

[GTBradley]

Hey Pete, I bled my brakes the old fashion way, my son pushing on the pedal and me at the brake with a wrench, tubing and a bottle. We did it and re-did it until they were rock hard and still are to this day, but they are not power brakes. Personally, I wouldn't be too concerned about brake fluid that has been in the bottle with the lid on it. I mean a partially filled gallon can of paint never dries out, so not much going on inside a closed can. And, your bake fluid is sitting in the reservoir with less protection than the can on the shelf.

[PeteMeindl]

Hey Pete, I bled my brakes the old fashion way, my son pushing on the pedal and me at the brake with a wrench, tubing and a bottle. We did it and re-did it until they were rock hard and still are to this day, but they are not power brakes. Personally, I wouldn't be too concerned about brake fluid that has been in the bottle with the lid on it. I mean a partially filled gallon can of paint never dries out, so not much going on inside a closed can. And, your bake fluid is sitting in the reservoir with less protection than the can on the shelf.

Thanks, GT! That makes sense.

[PeteMeindl]

Pete,

My recommendation on the leak is to get rid of the Teflon tape on those fittings and go with a PTFE thread sealant like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-80632-Thread-Sealant-PTFE/dp/B000HBNTGY/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2SG8681BOBA2L&keywords=thread+sealer+automotive&qid=1576464072&sprefix=thread+seal%2Caps%2C179&sr=8-3

Dave

Thanks, Dave! We ordered some up.

[PeteMeindl]

Dave, thanks a lot for your suggestion for the thread sealant for our oil temp sensor to stop it from leaking. We drained the oil and reinstalled the sensor with the thread sealant and that has stopped the leak - good news! Thank you.

We also spent some time working on bleeding the brakes. We're using the pressure bleeder cap from cnc. And we're using a bike pump to pump a few pounds of pressure in the reservior to push the brake fluid through the system. I'd say we did this about 6-8 times for each brake. We got a few bubbles here and there and ended up pushing about 20 oz of brake fluid out of all the brakes (so about 5 oz for each brake) for the entire job. I was really hopeful that the brakes would feel a lot more responsive after this but we took the car out today and they feel pretty much the same. I'm not quite sure if it's the fact that it's been a long time since i've felt manual brakes or, perhaps more likely, if I've done something wrong and the brakes just aren't working exactly right yet... The car certainly stops but it just feels more gradual than a regular car and i can't seem to cause the sort of jarring kind of stop when I slam on the brakes. Part of it just might be that the brand new tires are slippery as sometimes i do lock the wheels which is really all we can ask of the brakes, I guess... Do you guys have any thoughts? Sorry this is a pretty qualitative question...

The good news though was we drove the car in second gear for the first time today on our little 1/10 of a mile street and my wife Sarah drove a lap on the street for the first time too. She had fun! :)

[chmhasy]

Is there an adjustment on the pedal into the master cylinder, you might have to tighten that up

[GTBradley]

I’m no expert on this braking system, so I’ll stay out of the technical, but as far as feel goes, mine are very hard. So much so, that I’ve thought about posting this same kind of question. The difference for me is, when I get on them hard the back brakes lock and then the front and it stops straight ahead. So judging from your description I think something is not right yet.

Are you following this thread?
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?34163-Need-Brake-Help

He appears to have figured it out and it turned out to be the pads, but loads of good input throughout.

[PeteMeindl]

I’m no expert on this braking system, so I’ll stay out of the technical, but as far as feel goes, mine are very hard. So much so, that I’ve thought about posting this same kind of question. The difference for me is, when I get on them hard the back brakes lock and then the front and it stops straight ahead. So judging from your description I think something is not right yet.

Are you following this thread?
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?34163-Need-Brake-Help

He appears to have figured it out and it turned out to be the pads, but loads of good input throughout.

Thanks, Bradley! That thread looks like it's full of good ideas for us. I'll check them out - thank you very much!

[PeteMeindl]

Happy holidays, guys! I hope everyone had a good time with their families. We're trying to figure out why our brakes feel a little soft. We've been trying some of the ideas mentioned in the thread referenced by GTBradley - thanks GT! One funny thing has been going on that I think shows our incompetence and I wanted to run it by the group to see what we might be doing wrong.

So previously, one thing we've done is pressure bleed the brakes, which got a few bubbles out of the lines but even after this, the brakes still felt a little soft. We were wondering where there could be some air stuck in the master cylinders and since pressure bleeding doesn't involve depressing the master cylinders, we thought we'd try bleeding by depressing the brake pedal and seeing how that went.

Well, when we first started to bleed them with the brake pedal, we got a lot of bubbles out - which sounded like great news. We were excited that maybe we were finding the issue. But after a couple depressions of the brake pedal with the bleeder value open during brake pedal depression and the valve closed while releasing the pedal, the brake pedal would basically depress all the way it could without pushing out any more brake fluid. It was as if somehow a whole bunch of air got sucked in from somewhere and the air just compressed and didn't move out any fluid. The reservoirs always seemed to have enough fluid in them and I don't think any air was being sucked back in at the bleeder valve, at least as far as I could tell. So i wasn't sure what was going on. I'm sure I'm making some stupid, amateur mistake...

So this was obviously not good. We switched back to using the pressure bleeder and rebled the brakes. This pushed out some bubbles, no where near what the pedal bleeding did but now, with the pressure bleeding, we were able to get some decent firmness in the brake pedal rather than having it be able to be fully depressed. So that's much better.

We haven't driven the car yet post bleeding as it was raining today so I'm not sure if the brakes are any better. Maybe another round of pressure bleeding will help out. But if anyone has any thoughts on what we might be doing wrong with the brake pedal bleeding, please let us know. Thanks, guys!

[GTBradley]

Pete, I'm sorry if this doesn't help, but I can tell you for certain that bleeding brakes by pressing the pedal does work. Just make sure the person at the brake has the tube submersed in brake fluid in a bottle and the brake reservoir never runs dry. The pedal can't be allowed to come up until the brake bleed screw is closed and pressure should be applied to the pedal before it is opened. It does sound like the system is pulling air in somewhere. Have you checked the master cylinders in the foot box? You should also start at the brake farthest from the master cylinder and work sequentially to the one that is closest.

[PeteMeindl]

Pete, I'm sorry if this doesn't help, but I can tell you for certain that bleeding brakes by pressing the pedal does work. Just make sure the person at the brake has the tube submersed in brake fluid in a bottle and the brake reservoir never runs dry. The pedal can't be allowed to come up until the brake bleed screw is closed and pressure should be applied to the pedal before it is opened. I does sound like the system is pulling air in somewhere. Have you checked the master cylinders in the foot box? You should also start at the brake farthest from the master cylinder and work sequentially to the one that is closest.

Thanks a lot, Bradley! Every comment helps us as we often make the simplest of mistakes so thank you! We've monitored the brake reservoir to make sure it doesn't get too low and we've also tried to make sure no air can get back into the system via the plastic tube by always holding it vertically up to a bottle. But, you know, the tube wasn't always submerged in brake fluid within the bottle. I figured it would be ok as long as the tube always had fluid in it. We will try submerging it as you said - thank you! We've also been moving from the farthest brake to the closest. You mention checking the master cylinder in the footbox - what would I check for there? They don't seem to be leaking or anything but I'm not sure what else I should check. Thanks a lot for your help! I really appreciate it!

[GoDadGo]

Keep Swinging Those Wrench & Remember To Watch Your Pinkies!

[GTBradley]

Thanks a lot, Bradley! Every comment helps us as we often make the simplest of mistakes so thank you! We've monitored the brake reservoir to make sure it doesn't get too low and we've also tried to make sure no air can get back into the system via the plastic tube by always holding it vertically up to a bottle. But, you know, the tube wasn't always submerged in brake fluid within the bottle. I figured it would be ok as long as the tube always had fluid in it. We will try submerging it as you said - thank you! We've also been moving from the farthest brake to the closest. You mention checking the master cylinder in the foot box - what would I check for there? They don't seem to be leaking or anything but I'm not sure what else I should check. Thanks a lot for your help! I really appreciate it!

It sounds to me like your doing it right. I would spend a little time checking the hose routing in the foot box. Make sure your lines from the reservoir to the master cylinders are all secure and tight. Make sure the break lines are connected securely and that nothing has brake fluid on it indicating a leak. It depends on what type of master cylinders you have, but I have read of people having a problem with air getting into a master cylinder because of leak in them. I can't recall what it was, but search that issue. I saw on the FFR you tube series that they have a banjo fitting on the master cylinders now, but you can check how you did yours against it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4QwcS8uT2s

[JimC]

Hey Pete, I'm a newbie about halfway through my build and my first attempt at a post. No previous automotive experience so take what I say with a small grain of salt. I tried bleeding my brakes several times and had trouble. (operator error no doubt) I came across a youtube video that involved placing a small clear plastic tube onto the open bleeder valve and running it to the brake fluid reservoir placing it into the open top, then just pumping the brake to circulate the fluid until all the air is out. Worked great for brakes as well as on my hydraulic clutch

[PeteMeindl]

It sounds to me like your doing it right. I would spend a little time checking the hose routing in the foot box. Make sure your lines from the reservoir to the master cylinders are all secure and tight. Make sure the break lines are connected securely and that nothing has brake fluid on it indicating a leak. It depends on what type of master cylinders you have, but I have read of people having a problem with air getting into a master cylinder because of leak in them. I can't recall what it was, but search that issue. I saw on the FFR you tube series that they have a banjo fitting on the master cylinders now, but you can check how you did yours against it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4QwcS8uT2s

Great - thank you, Bradley! We will check that out. Very helpful, as always!! I feel like we're narrowing in the issue. As usual with us, it takes a while! :)

[PeteMeindl]

Hey Pete, I'm a newbie about halfway through my build and my first attempt at a post. No previous automotive experience so take what I say with a small grain of salt. I tried bleeding my brakes several times and had trouble. (operator error no doubt) I came across a youtube video that involved placing a small clear plastic tube onto the open bleeder valve and running it to the brake fluid reservoir placing it into the open top, then just pumping the brake to circulate the fluid until all the air is out. Worked great for brakes as well as on my hydraulic clutch

Thanks, Jim! I appreciate being the first post! :) What you said makes sense. We will give that one a try. Thank you very much!

[PeteMeindl]

I read on Bradley's thread the other day about how his clutch cable broke:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?30668-GTBradley-s-Build-Complete-Broken-clutch-cable/page11

I went out and looked at our car and we had basically installed ours the same way as Bradley and thus were likely headed for a broken clutch cable had we not read his thread.

Thanks for posting the issue and the fix, Bradley! You saved us from needing a tow down the road! :)

[GTBradley]

Thanks for calling out my big stupid mistake Pete! Just kidding. So happy someone else could benefit from that mistake I made. I’ll put more up when I finally get my new cable from Forte’s.

On the brakes issue, I was looking at your photo album for master cylinder pictures and saw that your balance bar has a healthy bit of bias to it. I’m not saying it’s too much, but maybe try evening the bar up just for bleeding the system again and when you have the problem solved set the bias again. Also, and sorry if I missed this in your posts, did you do the bench bleed for the masters? It can be done on the car. If all this fails I would call FFR and the brake manufacturer as it may be a bad master.

[PeteMeindl]

Thanks for calling out my big stupid mistake Pete! Just kidding. So happy someone else could benefit from that mistake I made. I’ll put more up when I finally get my new cable from Forte’s.

On the brakes issue, I was looking at your photo album for master cylinder pictures and saw that your balance bar has a healthy bit of bias to it. I’m not saying it’s too much, but maybe try evening the bar up just for bleeding the system again and when you have the problem solved set the bias again. Also, and sorry if I missed this in your posts, did you do the bench bleed for the masters? It can be done on the car. If all this fails I would call FFR and the brake manufacturer as it may be a bad master.

Thanks, Bradley! Yeah, great point on our balance bar. We noticed it looked extreme too and we've shifted it to be more normalized in our latest round of bleeding. What we haven't done, however, is bench bleed the master cylinders - so we need to do that! Thank you! So in reading a little about that, is this what we do: connect the output of the master cylinders to a tube and feed that back to the brake fluid reservoir and then pump the brakes? Sorry for the stupid question, but to do this, do we get some sort of fitting to screw into the output of the MC and that connects to a plastic tube? This could be the answer - Thanks a lot!

[Papa]

Thanks, Bradley! Yeah, great point on our balance bar. We noticed it looked extreme too and we've shifted it to be more normalized in our latest round of bleeding. What we haven't done, however, is bench bleed the master cylinders - so we need to do that! Thank you! So in reading a little about that, is this what we do: connect the output of the master cylinders to a tube and feed that back to the brake fluid reservoir and then pump the brakes? Sorry for the stupid question, but to do this, do we get some sort of fitting to screw into the output of the MC and that connects to a plastic tube? This could be the answer - Thanks a lot!

Pete,

You have the procedure right. I made a couple of pieces of tubing from piece of unused brake line (I made mine from a roll of Nickel Copper) and flared one end and added a fifing to thread onto the MC.

Dave

[edwardb]

Thanks, Bradley! Yeah, great point on our balance bar. We noticed it looked extreme too and we've shifted it to be more normalized in our latest round of bleeding. What we haven't done, however, is bench bleed the master cylinders - so we need to do that! Thank you! So in reading a little about that, is this what we do: connect the output of the master cylinders to a tube and feed that back to the brake fluid reservoir and then pump the brakes? Sorry for the stupid question, but to do this, do we get some sort of fitting to screw into the output of the MC and that connects to a plastic tube? This could be the answer - Thanks a lot!

As Dave (Papa) said, that's the right process for bench bleeding. I assume you realize if you do this then you're back at the beginning for the whole bleeding process. So bench bleed, then bleed each wheel starting with the farthest first. If you have normal brake line routing, the order would be RH rear, LH rear, RH front, LH front. I've had great luck with pressure bleeding. Some have suggested bench bleeding isn't necessary with pressure bleeding. But I still do it anyway, just to be sure. Hard pedal very time. I'd personally avoid the traditional push pedal down while opening and closing the bleeder process for the double master cylinder Wilwood setup. Many have had issues doing it that way. Factory Five (and others) recommend doing the front and rear at the same time when using that method. I haven't tried it.

[PeteMeindl]

Pete,

You have the procedure right. I made a couple of pieces of tubing from piece of unused brake line (I made mine from a roll of Nickel Copper) and flared one end and added a fifing to thread onto the MC.

Dave

Ah - great idea, Dave! That will work well - thanks a lot! We'll try it out this weekend - I'm feeling optimistic!

[PeteMeindl]

As Dave (Papa) said, that's the right process for bench bleeding. I assume you realize if you do this then you're back at the beginning for the whole bleeding process. So bench bleed, then bleed each wheel starting with the farthest first. If you have normal brake line routing, the order would be RH rear, LH rear, RH front, LH front. I've had great luck with pressure bleeding. Some have suggested bench bleeding isn't necessary with pressure bleeding. But I still do it anyway, just to be sure. Hard pedal very time. I'd personally avoid the traditional push pedal down while opening and closing the bleeder process for the double master cylinder Wilwood setup. Many have had issues doing it that way. Factory Five (and others) recommend doing the front and rear at the same time when using that method. I haven't tried it.

Thanks, Paul. Got it. We'll do the master cylinders first and then redo all the brakes. With you you, Dave, and Bradley helping us, I'm feeling good about our prospects! :)

[GTBradley]

What they said, Pete. Personally, I got it done the same way I’ve always done brakes and only did the the old-fashioned bleed at each wheel. I guess I got lucky. I don’t think your balance bar is extreme, in fact, it looks like mine does, but it might help to even it for bleeding. I hope this works for you and don’t actually have a bad master, but if you end up replacing it shouldn’t be too bad.

[initiator]

If you have spare tubing, fittings (do both master cylinders at the same time), and a flaring tool, then hard line is a great way to do it. Not having these things, I went to the auto parts store and bought two of their one-person bleed kits for not much. Came with a variety of flexible plastic lines, a bleed catch bottle with magnet, and fittings to mate with master cylinders and bleed valves. 'Bench bleeding' (not really, you don't remove them from the car) the masters followed by pressure bleeding the rest of the system made a huge difference in brake pedal stiffness for me. Just don't move the brake pedal while you're doing the pressure bleed.

[PeteMeindl]

If you have spare tubing, fittings (do both master cylinders at the same time), and a flaring tool, then hard line is a great way to do it. Not having these things, I went to the auto parts store and bought two of their one-person bleed kits for not much. Came with a variety of flexible plastic lines, a bleed catch bottle with magnet, and fittings to mate with master cylinders and bleed valves. 'Bench bleeding' (not really, you don't remove them from the car) the masters followed by pressure bleeding the rest of the system made a huge difference in brake pedal stiffness for me. Just don't move the brake pedal while you're doing the pressure bleed.

Thanks, Initiator! Yeah, this is all coming together and finally making sense to me - hoping to get this done this weekend. Thanks!

[Pat427]

I did the same thing and it seemed to work well for me.


Hey Pete, I'm a newbie about halfway through my build and my first attempt at a post. No previous automotive experience so take what I say with a small grain of salt. I tried bleeding my brakes several times and had trouble. (operator error no doubt) I came across a youtube video that involved placing a small clear plastic tube onto the open bleeder valve and running it to the brake fluid reservoir placing it into the open top, then just pumping the brake to circulate the fluid until all the air is out. Worked great for brakes as well as on my hydraulic clutch

[PeteMeindl]

Hi guys - Thanks again for everyone's help and advice on our issues with our brakes. This weekend we bench bled the master cylinders while they are still on the car, something we've never done before. Wow - it wasn't easy trying to reach into the area above the driver footbox and swap out the brakes lines that attach to the master cylinders! But eventually we got it and were able to use the brake pedal to cycle fluid through, pushing the pedal maybe 100 times, until there were no more bubbles in the tube going from the output of the master cylinder back into the brake fluid reservoir. That was good news! We then rebled the brakes themselves with a pressure bleeder, at each of the four brakes and went out and drove the car. We were excited and hoping for good results! Unfortunately, it felt about the same... still feels spongy and doesn't stop all that well.

My guess is we're doing some boneheaded rookie thing and just somehow not getting the air out. Today Sarah asked the mechanic about it at our local gas station and he mentioned it's often helpful to jack up the rear of the car when you're doing the rear of the car and then switch it up and jack up the front when doing the front. Getting gravity to help up out! So we'll try that, hopefully this weekend. He also mentioned he sometimes goes through several large bottles of brake fluid when bleeding - so maybe we aren't pumping enough fluid through to get all the air out. I'd say, in total, when we bled all four brakes we had about 1/2 a liter of fluid come out. So maybe that's part of the problem, too.

Thanks again for all the good tips, guys! We'll keep on plugging away! :)

[initiator]

After you're done bleeding, push on the brake pedal about 50% and then yank the parking brake several times. That is supposed to set the brake piston distance from the disc, so they don't have to travel too far before applying pressure to the disc.

[PeteMeindl]

After you're done bleeding, push on the brake pedal about 50% and then yank the parking brake several times. That is supposed to set the brake piston distance from the disc, so they don't have to travel too far before applying pressure to the disc.

Thanks, Initiator - I'll do that. I read about that in the thread Bradley recommended, too, I believe. Not something I would've figured out on my own, that's for sure. Thanks!

[PeteMeindl]

This weekend we attempted to bleed our brakes again in order to get rid of the spongy feeling we have when pushing our pedal. A local mechanic mentioned that it's sometimes helpful to jack up the axle with the brakes you're currently bleeding to let gravity help force the air up so we started with the rear of the car and jacked that up while keeping the front wheels on the ground. For this bleeding session, we tried using the old fashioned push-the-brake-pedal method.

Unfortunately, we ran into some trouble and i think maybe we're getting air into the brake lines somewhere. Here's what happened. Sarah was at the brake pedal and I was at the brake caliper with a hose going from the bleeder screw on the right rear caliper up into a bottle with brake fluid. Sarah put a little pressure on the brake, I opened up the bleeder screw and fluid started coming out into the tube with a few small bubbles. The brake pedal started to go down more until it was fully depressed, then I shut off the bleeder screw and Sarah would release the brake pedal. All good so far, I think.

We did this a few times and things seemed ok, although less and less brake fluid was coming out each time we did this until finally no new brake fluid would come out during and entire cycle. In fact, even with bleeder screw was closed, you could now completely depress the brake pedal all the way down… We checked the fluid reservoir and we still had plenty of fluid in there.

So I’m not completely sure, but I think somehow we are pulling air in the system from somewhere as we were trying to bleed the system and somehow we’re not pulling brake fluid in from the reservoir, as we would like to. Does that make sense to you guys? We went along all the connections to check how tight they are and things seemed ok, I think. Hmmmm….

[D02G]

This weekend we attempted to bleed our brakes again in order to get rid of the spongy feeling we have when pushing our pedal. A local mechanic mentioned that it's sometimes helpful to jack up the axle with the brakes you're currently bleeding to let gravity help force the air up so we started with the rear of the car and jacked that up while keeping the front wheels on the ground. For this bleeding session, we tried using the old fashioned push-the-brake-pedal method.

Unfortunately, we ran into some trouble and i think maybe we're getting air into the brake lines somewhere. Here's what happened. Sarah was at the brake pedal and I was at the brake caliper with a hose going from the bleeder screw on the right rear caliper up into a bottle with brake fluid. Sarah put a little pressure on the brake, I opened up the bleeder screw and fluid started coming out into the tube with a few small bubbles. The brake pedal started to go down more until it was fully depressed, then I shut off the bleeder screw and Sarah would release the brake pedal. All good so far, I think.

We did this a few times and things seemed ok, although less and less brake fluid was coming out each time we did this until finally no new brake fluid would come out during and entire cycle. In fact, even with bleeder screw was closed, you could now completely depress the brake pedal all the way down… We checked the fluid reservoir and we still had plenty of fluid in there.

So I’m not completely sure, but I think somehow we are pulling air in the system from somewhere as we were trying to bleed the system and somehow we’re not pulling brake fluid in from the reservoir, as we would like to. Does that make sense to you guys? We went along all the connections to check how tight they are and things seemed ok, I think. Hmmmm….

Pete, Obviously something isn't right. Are you sure you were checking the correct reservoir for fluid?

[initiator]

Hard to picture a scenario where the brake system would stop pumping fluid while there's still a supply in the reservoir. Only thing I can imagine is a blockage or failure in the master cylinder.

Maybe try bleeding the master cylinder again to see if fluid comes out from there? If that works and you still can't get fluid out of the caliper bleed port, maybe there is a blockage between the two.

[Railroad]

Is it possible the cap is not vented and displacement of fluid created a vacuum in the reservoir?

[PeteMeindl]

Thanks, DO2G! Yeah, we're checking the right reservoir. Just for good measure, both have a good amount of fluid, too. Thanks for the idea, though.

[PeteMeindl]

Hard to picture a scenario where the brake system would stop pumping fluid while there's still a supply in the reservoir. Only thing I can imagine is a blockage or failure in the master cylinder.

Maybe try bleeding the master cylinder again to see if fluid comes out from there? If that works and you still can't get fluid out of the caliper bleed port, maybe there is a blockage between the two.

I don't think there's a blockage as when we pressure bleed, we can get plenty of fluid through the system. Hmmm.... you also mentioned a failure in the master cylinder. Maybe that's it but i just bet it's more a failure on our part! :) Thanks, Initiator for the suggestion!

[PeteMeindl]

Is it possible the cap is not vented and displacement of fluid created a vacuum in the reservoir?

Railroad - good thinking. Yeah, we have the CVC reservoirs and I don't recall a vent on them. Maybe I should try this with the cap off so there's no vacuum there. Thanks for the good idea!

[edwardb]

This saga is unfortunately all too similar to the wiring issue. You're dealing with known parts and known processes. So something is wrong somewhere. Leaving the cap off won't make a difference. You'll be running with the cap on (obviously) so needs to flow properly then anyway. Lowering, or raising, or whatever the rear end shouldn't make a difference unless you're doing straight gravity bleeding. I can't say what the problem might be. But my main observation is pick a bleeding process and stay with it. You're kind of jumping around and creating so many variables it's hard to identify what might be happening. At least in my opinion and how I try to systematically approach problem solving. Bench bleeding the masters and then pressure bleeding through the CNC cap absolutely works. I've done it on every one of my builds and it has never missed for me. I know you've tried it repeatedly. But if you follow the process correctly, you aren't getting any air bubbles, and the pedal is still soft, then something is wrong. I mean mechanically or installed wrong. I don't think it's air in the system at that point and repeated bleeding with every different method isn't going to change anything. Just my two cents worth.

[PeteMeindl]

This saga is unfortunately all too similar to the wiring issue. You're dealing with known parts and known processes. So something is wrong somewhere. Leaving the cap off won't make a difference. You'll be running with the cap on (obviously) so needs to flow properly then anyway. Lowering, or raising, or whatever the rear end shouldn't make a difference unless you're doing straight gravity bleeding. I can't say what the problem might be. But my main observation is pick a bleeding process and stay with it. You're kind of jumping around and creating so many variables it's hard to identify what might be happening. At least in my opinion and how I try to systematically approach problem solving. Bench bleeding the masters and then pressure bleeding through the CNC cap absolutely works. I've done it on every one of my builds and it has never missed for me. I know you've tried it repeatedly. But if you follow the process correctly, you aren't getting any air bubbles, and the pedal is still soft, then something is wrong. I mean mechanically or installed wrong. I don't think it's air in the system at that point and repeated bleeding with every different method isn't going to change anything. Just my two cents worth.

Thanks for the good advice, Paul! Yes, this does feel a little like a saga... :) As always, we really appreciate your guidance. Your systematic approach makes a ton of sense - Thank you!

[PeteMeindl]

Hi guys. This week we rebled our brakes again using the pressure bleed method, which is what we’ve mainly done in the past. We then took the car for a drive. The brakes worked about the same as before - fine and functional but it still feels like the car takes longer to stop than I might’ve thought. Not sure how much it matters, but one thing to note is that we didn’t spring for the upgraded brakes in the kit.

So we went and hired a couple guys at a local shop that have done what they said are thousands of brake jobs to come over and take a look at our brakes, bleed them, and see what they thought. They bled them, didn’t find much in the way of air bubbles, and they thought the pedal felt firm. In their opinion the brakes seemed ok from what they could see. We drove it again later and it feels the same – ok. So, I suppose that is good news. At least for now, I think we will move forward with the next steps in our build. Thanks, guys.

[GTBradley]

That’s great Pete! So, do you think it might just be a perception thing? If the brakes are working properly you should have the ability to lock them up. Have you tried max breaking from 25 or 30 mph?

[PeteMeindl]

That’s great Pete! So, do you think it might just be a perception thing? If the brakes are working properly you should have the ability to lock them up. Have you tried max breaking from 25 or 30 mph?

Thanks, Bradley! That's nice of you. Yeah, maybe it is a perception thing, and I'm confident that my perception of this sort of thing is bad enough that i shouldn't rely on it too much! I've tried max braking at maybe 15-20 mph and I can lock the brakes, which is great! Although I think the wheels don't immediately lock when I hit the brakes as the car slows down for a bit first (at least I think, it's a little hard to tell given the time is quick...). But yeah, having them lock makes me feel good. Thanks!

[initiator]

Pete - I forget, have you bedded the brakes yet? They can feel a little 'greasy' until enough pad material is transferred to the rotors in the bedding process. Also, lots of folks upgrade the Factory Five brake pads to get better stopping power.

[PeteMeindl]

Pete - I forget, have you bedded the brakes yet? They can feel a little 'greasy' until enough pad material is transferred to the rotors in the bedding process. Also, lots of folks upgrade the Factory Five brake pads to get better stopping power.

Good question - yeah, I have not bedded the brakes yet. The area I can go cart in is really only about a tenth of a mile long with speed bumps and it doesn't really allow me to get much above 20 mph - I think i need to go faster than that to really bed them. But that's a very good point - thanks for bringing it up! Like you said, they do feel 'greasy'. Good point also on the upgrade of the brake pads. Thanks a lot for the help!

[Railroad]

Speaking of greasy, I noticed the steering rack, tie rod end, lets grease exit close to the rotor on my Wilwood brakes. I had a clump of grease on the caliper, next to the rotor.
It did not look like the rotor had picked up any grease and contaminated the pads, but I pulled it all down to confirm and washed everything down with brake cleaner.
I will really have to watch the grease, while lubing the chassis. I hope this saves someone an issue.

[PeteMeindl]

A fun day working on the car today. We lengthened a bit the bars that extend from the master cylinders into the clevises on the brakes and took the car for a drive. Brakes seem a little better and we continue to be able to lock them up. One of my sons drove the car for the first time today which was pretty exciting! :)

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=121848&d=1580614562

Then we started to close up the driver's side footbox in preparation for putting the body on sometime in the near future. Looking forward to it! :)

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=121849&d=1580614576

[PeteMeindl]

Big day today for us! Given everything is working well, we first sealed up the driver's footbox and got to the part in the manual that says 'Your rolling chassis is now complete.' :)

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=121880&d=1580681617

Then, we went into our living room and pulled the body out from its resting spot of 1.5 years and put it on the car - it's great to see it back where it belongs! I have to admit, i sort of miss the look of the go cart... but this is a good step in the right direction for us. We still have a lot to do in terms of getting the all the quick jacks installed and moving the body to fit where is should. Here's how it looks:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=121881&d=1580681624

Thanks, guys!

[Papa]

Looks great, Pete!

[chrisarella]

Pete, been a while since I've jumped in to follow build threads. Reading through yours now.


Hi Higgy,
I used the dolly plans from Chris Arella (thank you, Chris!) with the link below:
http://cobra.chrisarella.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Factory-Five-Roadster-MkIV-Chassis-Dolly-ChrisArella.pdf
The dimensions are 60 by 44 inches.
Pete

You're very welcome Pete. Happy to see the plans have been helpful to so many.


Be mindful with this dolly design. I have the exact same thing and when the wheels turn a certain way outside with the weight on them, it wants to collapse on the rear (at least mine did), as that is where the weight is. Either its a common design flaw or I absolutely sucked at wood shop. Probably is the latter, but easy remedy is to take a 2x4 and attach from front to back on the side. Only do one side as it keeps you from getting under the dolly.


Thanks, CV2065! I hadn't heard about this so thanks a lot for bringing it up. Just so i understand it correctly, I think you're saying to connect a 2x4 from the end of one 4x4 to the other 4x4 along the side of the dolly - is that right? Could you send a picture of your dolly? Anyone else have any improvements or suggestions on the dolly? Thanks a lot, guys - certainly want to get the infrastructure right so there aren't any safety issues. Thanks!


Yep, that is correct! Keeps the whole alignment straight.

I'm sorry to hear cv2065 had a bad experience. Brilliant idea. I link that. Perhaps there could be a way devised to make that extra 2x4 come on and off easily.

One thing to note, the purpose of the triangle plywood is to prevent torquing. I used a good quality 1/2" plywood. I've seen some people try and use pressboard or thinner plywood. I do not recommend those. I've also seen people not go wide enough on the triangle. The triangles are supposed to be 24" wide (going across the 4x4) x 18" long (going down the 2x6). I called this out in the post I made on the site here:

http://cobra.chrisarella.com/chassis-dolly/

I know one of the drawings didn't accurately reflect that proportion and I've updated the PDF/images to look more reflective of the actual dimensions.

Unless you intend on dismantling the dolly down the road and recycling the wood, I also recommend using wood glue in the joints. FWIW I've had my roadster on my dolly for 8 years. In that time it has survived three relocations from my old house, to a workshop, and then to my new house. It has been pushed around my garage countless times without the slightest issue. I only share that as my experience.

Anyway, I'm just getting back to my build again, and looking forward to catching up with your build thread.

[SSNK4US]

Looking good Pete!!! You still had the BEST body storage EVER!!!!
All of our inventory is still in our spare bedroom. :( But it’s happy being climate controlled lol

Kurt

[PeteMeindl]

Looking good Pete!!! You still had the BEST body storage EVER!!!!
All of our inventory is still in our spare bedroom. :( But it’s happy being climate controlled lol

Kurt

Ha! Thanks, Kurt. That's perhaps the one thing that we could ever be a contender for being the best at! :)

[Straversi]

Congratulations. That’s a memorable milestone. Suddenly, it’s a car! And for you, wow, it’s a living room again!
Looks great.
-Steve

[PeteMeindl]

After getting the body on the car last weekend, this weekend we worked on trying to secure the body to the car with the 8 bolts for the quick jacks. We also started to work on installing the bumpers, since they will go on our car instead of the quick jacks as I believe these are required to register the car in Connecticut. Earlier in the build we had used Jeff Kleiner's great idea of using couplers and threaded rods for the rear quick jack bolts in order to avoid having to drop the gas tank whenever we might need to remove the body in the future. This is a great idea, Jeff! This weekend we realized that this works for quick jacks but unfortunately I don't think it works for the ffr rear bumper that we have. So we dropped the gas tank and installed the long bolts and then the rear bumper.

We had to use our dremel to widen one of the holes in the main bumper plate since it didn't exactly align with our bolts but it wasn't too far off and I think in the end things came together well. Here's a pic.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=122264&d=1581299819

We also stared on the front bumper. It looks like we may need to drill and tap new holes in the vertical bumper pieces for the front in order to get the large bumper ring to fit between the two vertical pieces that affix to the quick jack bolts. If we use the threaded holes that are already there in the vertical pieces, it might be just a little too tight to fit the large bumper ring in between.

We also ordered some cats from ffr that sit between our shorty headers from the coyote and the side pipes. We were excited to find that ffr sold these now as I don't think they did when we bought our kit in summer of 2018 and we need cats to register in connecticut. So good new there!

[edwardb]

Earlier in the build we had used Jeff Kleiner's great idea of using couplers and threaded rods for the rear quick jack bolts in order to avoid having to drop the gas tank whenever we might need to remove the body in the future. This is a great idea, Jeff! This weekend we realized that this works for quick jacks but unfortunately I don't think it works for the ffr rear bumper that we have. So we dropped the gas tank and installed the long bolts and then the rear bumper.

Actually that mod works fine with either quick jacks or overriders & bumpers. Maybe what you missed is that it's necessary to drill out the overriders so they aren't threaded on. Then push everything together and put the nut on the end. It's a bit of a pain reaching inside the overrider to get started and tighten. But it's possible and still way easier than dropping the tank.

[PeteMeindl]

Actually that mod works fine with either quick jacks or overriders & bumpers. Maybe what you missed is that it's necessary to drill out the overriders so they aren't threaded on. Then push everything together and put the nut on the end. It's a bit of a pain reaching inside the overrider to get started and tighten. But it's possible and still way easier than dropping the tank.

Ah, I see! Ok, that makes sense. Yes, I did miss that. Thanks, Paul - we'll switch over to that next time we have to drop the tank as it certainly sounds like a better way to go. I appreciate the tip! Thanks again to Jeff for the great idea, too.

[PeteMeindl]

This weekend our main progress was getting the hood on. We built the hood hinges, mounted them on the car's frame, and also set the hood latch brackets into the lip of the hood opening. We also mounted the hood latches in the hood. One thing we had trouble with was trying to use screws to mount the hood latch brackets on the body so we instead used some very small bolts that could sit within the rubber bumpers and I think that turned out ok.

We then connected the hood to the hood hinges and did some adjustments to the placement of the hinges to help align the hood - somewhat roughy :) - with the body. All the adjustments you could do on the hood hinges made this easier than we thought it would be, which was great. We didn't align this perfectly by any means but I think it's ok for now as all the body work will be done down the road and things will be realigned then.

We also threw the engine cover on for the first time since getting the engine. Here's how things look:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=122625&d=1581880626

One thing we're wrestling with now is the front bumper. The instructions have us redrill and tap new threaded holes in the 2 vertical overriders so that they can sit a little further out to the side of the car, thereby given the oval piece that goes between the overriders a little more room. This makes sense as it is tight without offsetting the overriders. The metal plate in the overriders is about 1/4 inch thick and we need to get a 3/8 inch hole in there to tap the new screw hole. Do you guys have a good recommendation for drill bits that can handle this? We've tried with our general purpose dewalt and ryobi black oxide drill bits along with some cutting fluid and we're having trouble getting through that steel. Thanks, guys! Hope you're all having a good long weekend.

[chmhasy]

Looking Great

[Jeff Kleiner]

Pete,
I'm kind of late to the party but here is how I do the rear bumper and overriders:

https://www.ffcars.com/threads/rear-bumper-with-coupler-mod.484642/#post-4531186

Cheers,
Jeff

[PeteMeindl]

Pete,
I'm kind of late to the party but here is how I do the rear bumper and overriders:

https://www.ffcars.com/threads/rear-bumper-with-coupler-mod.484642/#post-4531186

Cheers,
Jeff

Thanks a lot, Jeff! That's a great idea to fix the problem. You're always coming up with good ideas to help us out!

[PeteMeindl]

We started work on the windshield this weekend. We first screwed the metal sidebars into the windshield and then slotted them into the car to see how much of the sidebars we'd need to cut off. It was a little tight but the sidebars fit into the car and we ended up needing to take up to about 2 inches off of each sidebar. So we took the windshield out, unscrewed the side bars, and then cut them down with a hacksaw. Then we rescrewed them into the windshield and slotted it into the car again to see how things looked. Here's a picture:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123182&d=1582596479

Things looked pretty good and we are about to mark the place to drill the holes in the sidebars. However, we noticed one sidebar wasn't quite aligned with the windshield - at the top of the sidebar it was at an angle away from the windshield - and when we tried to align it and screw it in again, we managed to strip one of the screws... despite the warnings in the manual that this could happen... So I think we'll buy some new windshield inserts which will hopefully help us out.

https://www.whitbymotorcars.com/product/ss-windshield-inserts/

If anyone else has run into this, please let me know!

We then moved on to the trunk and installed the trunk handle. Seemed to go pretty well. Here it is:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123183&d=1582596486

[Papa]

Pete,

Make sure the slots you cut for the windshield are large enough that the body doesn't touch the bars at all. The slots get covered up with trim later, so get those opened up some, just don't go crazy. You may also want to consider tapping and threading the holes so you don't need to try to access both sides with a nut and bolt.

Dave

[PeteMeindl]

Pete,

Make sure the slots you cut for the windshield are large enough that the body doesn't touch the bars at all. The slots get covered up with trim later, so get those opened up some, just don't go crazy. You may also want to consider tapping and threading the holes so you don't need to try to access both sides with a nut and bolt.

Dave

Ah - Thanks, Dave! Will do - currently the body does touch the bars so we will widen out those holes. Good idea on threading the holes in the sidebars... I've been wondering how we were going to get on both sides of that to secure with a nut & bolt - there's not a lot of room in there!

Thanks!

[PeteMeindl]

This weekend we worked on the front bumper. In the past, we had some trouble trying to drill out a new set of holes on the back side of the front bumper overriders such that they can sit a little wider to accommodate the front bumper hoop. We bought some new cobalt drill bits and using a drill press and some cutting fluid, we were able to get the 3/8 inch holes into that thick metal plate on the back of the overriders. Definitely had some decent smoke coming off them at times during that process, although we tried to keep them lubed up... Then we used the supplied tap to thread the holes. We have never tapped new threads before and I wasn't really sure how this would work out for us - but it worked well! The threads came out great. Still kind of amazes me that this little tool can do that...

Here's a picture:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123431&d=1583103330

Then we mounted the overriders on the front of the car. The bolts went it well and things seem nice and tight. Next step will be to get that bumper hoop on there.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123430&d=1583102679

[PeteMeindl]

This weekend we mounted the hoop on the front bumper. It doesn't quite fit flush against the vertical bumper overriders but it's reasonably close so hopefully ok. We started out drilling holes through the overriders after estimating where we'd like to mount the bumper hoop. Then we mounted the hoop. Unfortunately, we couldn't get an allen wrench to fit in the space on the outside of the overriders where the lower bolt goes so we had to flip those around and the nut side of the bolt is now visible. But since it's the lower bolt, it's not so bad. Here's how things look:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123739&d=1583616673

We also worked on the windshield. We took out the brass strips on the side of the windshield and replaced them with stainless ones from whitby. We then remounted the side brackets on the windshield. We had to file a little bit of the metal frame around the stainless strips to get some of the new screws to have enough space to get into the new stainless strips. We're still working on one but 7 out of 8 are now in. But hopefully that will come together. Then our next step will be to drill in the windshield brackets to finally mount it.

I've got to say, when the windshield is on the car (as in a previous picture we posted) it feels sort of like the car isn't that far from being done. I can't believe it!

[PeteMeindl]

Hi guys, we've been spending a lot of hours on the car lately and have made some good progress. Things seem to be really coming together. :)

First thing we did was install the trunk latch. We had to drop our fuel tank to drill through the frame from inside the car, but we've done that so many times now, it's getting to be second nature. The latch lined up well and now the trunk closes and locks. Here's the latch:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124086&d=1584303867

Next we tackled a pretty big project - the windshield. A BIG thanks to Papa for his suggestion to tap threads into the windshield mounting bracket so we could attach them to the chassis more easily. This really helped us out as there was one bolt that we really would've struggled to get access to it on both sides if we needed to tighten up a nut on it. Here's the bracket with the threads:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124087&d=1584303877

And here's the windshield, secured into the car:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124088&d=1584303888

Next we mounted the doors. The mounting was pretty easy. It's great that the mounts allow you to adjust the doors in so many dimensions. They aren't perfect right now but since they'll be coming off for paint in a few months, we wanted to get them functional and reasonable which I think we have now.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124089&d=1584303899

The door latches were a little trickier for us. We ended up putting too many shims on one of the doors which caused the door to basically be locked shut... the extra shims ended up placing the striker a little too much towards the front of the car and wouldn't allow enough clearance for the lock to actually fully exit the striker - thus the door seemed locked. And given the latch was right up against the seat, we really couldn't see what was happening. But we removed the seat and figured it out. We removed a couple shims and the door latch worked great. :)
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124091&d=1584303920

[PeteMeindl]

Next we installed the taillights. A little drilling and some butt connectors and they were finished fairly easily:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124092&d=1584303929

Plus, they even worked! :)
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124093&d=1584303939

Then we moved on to the front blinker and headlights. The blinkers installed easily, just like the tail lights.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124094&d=1584303960

The headlights were a little more involved. We were surprised that you install them basically with screws through the fiberglass but they seem to be in there pretty securely. I also like the mechanism where a couple of the screws went through the rubber inserts, expanding them within the holes in the fiberglass, thus really helping to hold things securely. Ideas I'm sure people use all the time but I hadn't thought of it and I think it seems to work well. These guys all lit up well, too. Blinkers, high and low beams all worked as we hoped they would.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124095&d=1584303971

Finally, we installed the fuel filler cap and attached it to the pipe coming out of the fuel tank. We ground this to the frame as well. It was a little tight putting that all together under the car, but this worked out well too.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124096&d=1584303979

So, lot's of good things going on! Hope everyone is doing ok in these crazy times.

[PeteMeindl]

One thing we need to do next is figure out how to get some cats on here. We had thought we could get j-pipes with cats in them from ffr, but it turns out they aren't for the gen 2 coyote that we have. They have a header-cat combo that'll work but since we already have headers, we'd rather find a cheaper way than rebuying our headers. We're going to try to find a shop that can cut our existing j pipes up and insert cats in the middle of them and then re-attach the fittings on each end. Does that make sense as a good way to go? Here's what our j pipes look like:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124090&d=1584303911

[chmhasy]

has the cobra started to laugh at the electric car yet?

[PeteMeindl]

has the cobra started to laugh at the electric car yet?

haha! Yeah, despite their differences, they seem to get along quite well when in the garage! :)

[PeteMeindl]

We're working on installing the radiator aluminum this weekend and i'll post on that later on however while we were doing this we were discussing a concern that I wanted to bounce off of you guys. When you run the emergency brake cables, the ffr manual recommends you run them under the 4 inch chassis tube, as shown in the picture below.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124479&d=1584822830

We did this a long while back. But we're a little concerned that these cables will get scraped up or ripped if we rub a speed bump with the chassis. Have you guys altered where you run those cables or do you run them under the 4 inch chassis tube as recommended in the instructions? Thanks!

[edwardb]

There are a whole bunch of builds out there with the cables under the 4-inch tubes and it works. If you're scraping them on a speed bump or whatever, chances are you're hitting somewhere else too because that's way too close. So I don't know if that's reason alone to change it. I've heard of some locations where they didn't pass technical inspection for whatever reason. But don't think that's real common. Others, like me just don't like them routed that way on general principle. For my #8674 build, came up with a way to route the cables through pulleys and it works great. Kind of a compilation of ideas from other builds combined with a few of my own. A number of builds have done it that way since. Described here: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?18591-EdwardBs-Mk4-8674-20th-Anniversary-Build&p=225428&viewfull=1#post225428. Later updates show going to two pulleys, so scroll further into the build thread for that. I've seen where some have had trouble sourcing that specific Lokar clevis. Apparently it can still be sourced directly from Lokar. FWIW.

[MSumners]

I initially ran them as Edwardb devised with the pulleys but then realized I couldn’t reach the handle from the drivers seat with the harness on. I use parking brakes all the time and wanted easy access. I just relocated mine to the transmission tunnel top and love how it turned out. Not difficult at all. Of course if you want the original look them may want to keep the original position. A lot of people have done this before and I wish I had started with it as it feels more solid with a fluid pull on the lever. Downsides are cost ( extra lokar lever, parts etc probably about $170) and likely more difficulty accessing the mechanism after the build.

[Railroad]

Looking at the picture you posted, if your engine, trans and rear axle are in the final position and the axle on the floor, I think your driveshaft front yoke is too far out of the trans.

Just realized the pic is probably out of the manual. Sorry

[edwardb]

I initially ran them as Edwardb devised with the pulleys but then realized I couldn’t reach the handle from the drivers seat with the harness on. I use parking brakes all the time and wanted easy access. I just relocated mine to the transmission tunnel top and love how it turned out. Not difficult at all. Of course if you want the original look them may want to keep the original position. A lot of people have done this before and I wish I had started with it as it feels more solid with a fluid pull on the lever. Downsides are cost ( extra lokar lever, parts etc probably about $170) and likely more difficulty accessing the mechanism after the build.

Yeah, this is talked about a lot and is obviously a personal decision. I'm very average size (5-10) and have standard Roaster seats. I don't have any trouble reaching the e-brake on the side of the tunnel. One of the questions probably is how tight you wear the harness. If you're sucking yourself against the seat, maybe that's the difference. I wear mine plenty tight, but loose enough so it's not chafing and also gives me enough wiggle room to reach the e-brake. Having said that, my new Coupe build has it on the tunnel top as designed by Factory Five, and I agree it's handy. Just something to consider for those moving it there in the Roadster: In the Coupe, they still use the same e-brake handle assembly. Just without the right angle mounting brackets and bolt it to the tunnel tubing. If I were doing one in a Roadster today, I'd maybe look at that option versus buying the Lokar handle. Just another possibility. You can see it here in this picture during my Coupe build.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ab234/edwardb123/3/IMG_0168_cropped.jpg (https://app.photobucket.com/u/edwardb123/p/9201d084-1efb-42c7-809d-9a253bc9db5a)

[PeteMeindl]

Thanks, guys! I like that idea of the ebrake a little closer - that's a nice mod! Although since it sounds like a lot of people do loop the cable under the 4 inch tube without a problem, I think we'll stick with what we have built so far. Thanks for the valuable input!

[PeteMeindl]

We installed the radiator aluminum this weekend. Finally time to get rid of those zip ties that hold up the bottom of the radiator! We put the bottom sheet of aluminum in after trimming a slight amount off of the side and then riveted it in.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124600&d=1584914608

Then we started to put the side panel aluminum in. The wires from the horns got in our way a little bit - they were preventing us from getting the panel flush up against the diagonal part of the frame. You can sort of see how they might get in the way here:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124601&d=1584914619

So we moved the horns and remounted them on a lower part of the frame (second time we've moved our horns!) and things went together well.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124602&d=1584914631

We also added a couple washers to our front bumper to just give it a bit more space between the bumper and the body.

Finally, we installed the rear view mirror.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124603&d=1584914639

Additionally, we bought some cats and talked to a muffler shop about cutting our j pipes and inserting the cats in the j pipes. Sounds like that will work which is good news!

[chmhasy]

Looking good

[PeteMeindl]

This weekend we reached a pretty big milestone here as we drove the car for the first time with the body on. It felt good! Although I do miss the go cart drive feeling. The first thing we did this weekend was add the leather straps to the doors, which was straight forward.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=125262&d=1585533808

Then we added the side view mirror. It was a little tight trying to get to the mirror mounting bolts on the inside of the body but I think it worked out ok. Reminded me of installing the windshield a bit.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=125263&d=1585533821

And then the aluminum underneath the doors.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=125264&d=1585533834

But the main event of the weekend was the arrival of the gas-n pipes. We really like the way they look and I think we were able to get them aligned pretty well after a little adjusting. They sound great, too.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=125265&d=1585533847

Here are the side pipe supports.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=125267&d=1585533871

Then we finally got the car out on the road for a quick drive. Here we are. Next step is to calibrate the speedometer & odometer, hopefully this week sometime if the weather permits.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=125273&d=1585535928

Hope everyone is doing ok during these crazy times.

[PeteMeindl]

One issue that has developed recently is a relatively loud click from the clutch cable near the front of the footbox when we release the clutch. I've poked around a little on the forum and it sounds like the clutch cable can fray and then catch on something causing this sort of click. We've only driven a few miles in go cart phase but this sounds like it could be our issue. And I guess it sounds like the fraying cable could eventually snap. I've seen people recommend replacing the clutch cable with the one from Mike Forte. Unless you guys think there's a better solution, I think i'll order a cable from him. What do you guys think?
Thank you, as always!

[initiator]

One issue that has developed recently is a relatively loud click from the clutch cable near the front of the footbox when we release the clutch. I've poked around a little on the forum and it sounds like the clutch cable can fray and then catch on something causing this sort of click. We've only driven a few miles in go cart phase but this sounds like it could be our issue. And I guess it sounds like the fraying cable could eventually snap. I've seen people recommend replacing the clutch cable with the one from Mike Forte. Unless you guys think there's a better solution, I think i'll order a cable from him. What do you guys think?
Thank you, as always!

If you do call Forte, he has a set of 2 cables for like $50, which is barely more than one cable costs elsewhere. Then you'll have a spare.

[edwardb]

If this is the one Forte is selling, that's what you want: Ford Performance M-7553-C302. If not, well... Highly recommended by a bunch of us. Rock solid cable and really smooth.

[PeteMeindl]

If this is the one Forte is selling, that's what you want: Ford Performance M-7553-C302. If not, well... Highly recommended by a bunch of us. Rock solid cable and really smooth.

Thanks for the part #, Paul - I appreciate it!

[D02G]

Thanks for the part #, Paul - I appreciate it!

Hi Pete,

Amazon has the best price on that cable. I bought it too.

[GTBradley]

Pete, did you file the edges on the clutch pedal top where the cable travels through it?

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=109109&d=1560904399

[PeteMeindl]

Pete, did you file the edges on the clutch pedal top where the cable travels through it?

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=109109&d=1560904399

Hi Bradley - Thanks a lot! I didn't think of that. And I could see how that could cause this problem. I'll try that out - thank you very much! Hope you're doing well.

[chrisarella]

Amazon has the best price on that cable. I bought it too.
Forget Bezos — that guys is wealthy enough.
Please support Mike Forte.
For all Mike has done to support our builds throughout the years, he deserves our help during this downturn.

[GTBradley]

Hi Bradley - Thanks a lot! I didn't think of that. And I could see how that could cause this problem. I'll try that out - thank you very much! Hope you're doing well.
Doing great Pete, I hope you and family are staying safe. Isn’t it great having this project when you're stuck at home anyway?

Hey don’t forget to drip some oil inside the cable sheath before installation. And tell Mike you need a firewall tensioner too.

[chrisarella]

Did I post in your thread? You can buy from whoever you want....
I could be interpreting this the wrong way, but you're comment appears like you took offense to what I said. :confused:
FWIW it wasn't directed at you.
If what I said somehow offended you, know it wasn't personal.
Obviously you don't need my permission to buy from Amazon and are free to purchase from whoever you like.
I spoke to Mike Forte this week and can tell you guys he needs our support.
I receive no benefit from his sales.
I'm asking we support the vendors who have been helping us build our dreams.

Now lets get back on topic. ;)


Hey don’t forget to drip some oil inside the cable sheath before installation. And tell Mike you need a firewall tensioner too.

Not sure what y'all are using for cable lube but I've been using Cable Life cable lube happily for decades on my bikes. I was a bike mechanic years ago. AFAIK it is still a go-to in the motorcycle community. It comes with a tube to press into a traditional cable lube tool but you don't need to go that route. Another option is to spray a little lube into a lint-free rag, pull the cable out from the jacket and draw the cable through the lubed rag. This helps to reduce some of the mess that inevitably comes from using the cable lube tool. HTH

[PeteMeindl]

Hi guys! Thanks to everyone for all of their good suggestions - we really appreciate it. So we have some big news over here. :) We've taken the car out and driven it beyond just our little 1/10 of a mile street for the first time. It felt good! We were able to get up into third gear and drive around for a couple miles, just on little local streets. Really fun. And it feels like we've really made it close to the finish line in terms of building the car! Huge thanks to Paul, Dave, Bradley, Jeff, and so many others that have made this possible. No way we could've gotten here without you. Thank you!

We're not done, of course. Still lots to do. But driving it around the neighborhood with the body on it just felt like what i thought it would feel like when we first dreamed of this idea. :) On the things-to-do, one thing we've tried to do is calibrate our speedo/odo. We have the autometer ultra lite gauges (the ones that come with the basic ff package). To calibrate, we depress the speedo button, hold it down while we start the car, wait til the needle goes full scale, then let out the button. We drive to the beginning of our two mile stretch and hit the button again. The needle goes to straight up (middle of the gauge) as it should and the odo starts racking up some big numbers. Then we have fun and drive our two miles and hit the button again. The needle drops to 0 as it should and i think everything is good and we are calibrated. But then the needle jumps up to between 20-30 mph and stays there, even when we are stopped. We've tried to calibrate 3 times and this happens each time. Also, interestingly the odometer read something in the 6000s when we started and after 3 calibration tries of 2 miles apiece, the odometer has added 7 miles, which seems about right but not sure why we're in the 6000's. Anyone have any issues like this before? I've poked around on the internet and haven't been able to figure it out yet. I'll try contacting autometer as well to see if they have any advice. Thanks for any suggestions!

I haven't looked into this issue at all but it seems the car is using more gas than I expected. We did a 4 mile drive and it seemed to use about a gallon of fuel. Maybe the small size of this run and my imprecise measurements are causing me to overstate this so I'm not sure. But just wondering if I'm burning too much fuel.

Thanks, guys! Hope everyone is healthy.

[GTBradley]

I haven't looked into this issue at all but it seems the car is using more gas than I expected. We did a 4 mile drive and it seemed to use about a gallon of fuel. Maybe the small size of this run and my imprecise measurements are causing me to overstate this so I'm not sure. But just wondering if I'm burning too much fuel.

Thanks, guys! Hope everyone is healthy.

Pete, I’d be very surprised if the Coyote is actually using fuel like that, especially if it’s running well (no black smoke/soot from the side pipes, etc). I’m tracking my fuel consumption closely and can report that 17 mpg with not much highway and running it hard here and there is what I’m getting on average. I got 20 mpg on one trip with mostly highway. This is all before I got it professionally tuned, so it may get better yet.

is it possible the tank burped? How are you measuring the fuel usage?

Bradley.

[PeteMeindl]

Pete, I’d be very surprised if the Coyote is actually using fuel like that, especially if it’s running well (no black smoke/soot from the side pipes, etc). I’m tracking my fuel consumption closely and can report that 17 mpg with not much highway and running it hard here and there is what I’m getting on average. I got 20 mpg on one trip with mostly highway. This is all before I got it professionally tuned, so it may get better yet.

is it possible the tank burped? How are you measuring the fuel usage?

Bradley.

Thanks, Bradley - that's good to hear. Yeah, I imagine it could be something like a burp. I don't notice any smoke from the pipes or anything like that. Thanks!

[edwardb]

Thanks, Bradley - that's good to hear. Yeah, I imagine it could be something like a burp. I don't notice any smoke from the pipes or anything like that. Thanks!

I doubt very much you had any kind of burp in the tank. It's vented and won't trap air between the fuel and the sender. Also doubt you're getting 4 MPG with your Coyote. It would likely smoke, as stated, or smell extremely rich. Also if running really rich beyond what the PCM could adjust for, would throw DTC's. Ask me how I know about that. My Gen 2 Coyote gets 17-20 MPG as well. Very dependent on my right foot. You'll need to get used to your fuel gauge. Very likely it's not 100% linear as the tank is emptied.

[PeteMeindl]

I doubt very much you had any kind of burp in the tank. It's vented and won't trap air between the fuel and the sender. Also doubt you're getting 4 MPG with your Coyote. It would likely smoke, as stated, or smell extremely rich. Also if running really rich beyond what the PCM could adjust for, would throw DTC's. Ask me how I know about that. My Gen 2 Coyote gets 17-20 MPG as well. Very dependent on my right foot. You'll need to get used to your fuel gauge. Very likely it's not 100% linear as the tank is emptied.

Thanks, Paul! I'm sure you guys are right that the gas mileage is much better. Our method of measurement was pretty approximate, too. Our gas gauge was right on E and we had about a gallon of gas in a gas can which we added. Then we drove the car about 4-5 miles or so and when we got back to our garage, the needle was about where it was when we started before putting in the gas. So not precise in any way and a small sample, for sure. Certainly a better way would be to use a full tank and see what mileage we get. So I won't worry about that for now, especially since the engine seems to be running fine and we don't have any unusual exhaust. Thanks, guys!

On the autometer ultralite speedo/odo calibration issue, has anyone had a similar problem? I'll post if I hear from autometer about what might be going on.

Thanks, guys! Hope everyone's doing ok.

[GTBradley]

BY installing a Coyote you’ve done yourself a real favor in mileage. Beyond value, weight, dependability, power, support, etc. you also have range. I’ve been reading that the sbf crowd get single digits for gas mileage. Twice the range is a very good thing in my book, of course I’ll be diving longer distances, for just putzing around town I guess it wouldn’t matter. Good luck with the gauges, sorry I can’t help there.