Declaring success: New SBF w/ FiTech EFI hesitation/sputtering problem solved! [Archive]

Cobradavid

07-07-2018, 12:39 PM

Working on the new engine/transmission for my daughter's 1966 Ranchero:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?27889-Engine-porn-1966-Ranchero-getting-a-new-drivetrain

I cannot get this $*@&$(%&# engine to start/run.

Specs:
Remanufactured 302/5.0L long block for 94-96 Bronco/F-series/E-series, with stock roller cam, stock heads, stock crank, Windsor firing order
Stock style exhaust manifolds
Weiand dual plane intake manifold (#8124)
FiTech Go Street EFI system (#31003)
PerTronix Flame-Thrower distributor (#D7134600) with Ignitor III module (has steel gear)
PerTronix Flame-Thrower III Ignition Coil (#44011)
New 7 mm plug wires
New spark plugs, gapped to 0.035"
New High torque starter
New G3 Alternator
Alternator conversion kit from CJ Pony Parts
New Starter solenoid
New Starter and Battery Cables
Fully charged battery
1/2 tank of gas

I have quadruple-checked (and had a mechanic friend double-check also) the plug wires are in correct Windsor order and distributor is indexed correctly for #1 cylinder at TDC on compression stroke.
The FiTech electric fuel pump runs when key is first turned to "RUN" to pressurize the system and then turns off. The pump also will run when the key is in "START" as the pressure drops during cranking.
The FiTech does squirt fuel in the throttle body when the key is turned to "RUN" to prime the engine
Coil has power in both "RUN" and in "START"
FiTech is wired to coil (+) terminal, so it also has power in both "RUN" and "START"
Engine turns during cranking. It sputters a little but never catches.
After attempting to start a few times, exhaust smells like exhaust gas (not raw fuel)
Timing light hooked up to #1 plug wire blinks while the engine is cranking.
The FiTech hand-held monitor shows 180-200 RPM during cranking, so the FiTech ECU seems to know the engine is turning.

What am I doing wrong? What do I need to check?
Please help! This is driving me batty!:mad:

David

R. Button

07-07-2018, 02:10 PM

I'd look at the basic's as in Top Dead Center on the crank pulley - are the valves on number one closed? Then looking at the cap where is the rotor pointed? At number 1? It kind of sounds like something is off with the timing.

Cobradavid

07-07-2018, 03:04 PM

Thanks for the reply, Ralph.

#1 cylinder (passenger side bank, front cylinder) has compression when the crank pulley shows TDC. I verified this by watching the rocker arms (valves closed) prior to putting the valve covers on and also by feeling for compression at the spark plug hole. When crank pulley shows TDC, the distributor rotor is pointing to #1 wire on the cap.

I've been working on the assumption that the long block was built correctly. I haven't verified that it is really set up for the Windsor firing order as it's supposed to be. I also haven't checked compression.
Should I check those things?

I'm really stumped.
David

scottiec

07-07-2018, 03:41 PM

It does sound timing related. Have you tried slowly rotating the dizzy while you crank the motor? Your timing may be too far retarded or advanced.

Railroad

07-07-2018, 04:08 PM

If you are not flooding, add timing. Sounds like low base timing. If that does not correct it, pull a plug after cranking and see if the engine is flooded.
If all that checks out, check the spark. Any method you are familiar with, will do. Should be a popping blue spark. If you have a noid light, you can hold it over, each plug to verify your ign module is giving consistent out put.
Sound like something small unless a module is bad.
Pertronix might have a punch list for methods of checking their product.
Check voltage to the coil, should be 12 volts minimum while cranking. Pertonix recommends no resistor on their coils, I think.

Ducky2009

07-07-2018, 05:12 PM

If after checking the items that Railroad Joe suggested, I'd try using starting fluid. If you need to keep spraying to keep it running, your fuel system needs checked out.

NAZ

07-07-2018, 05:22 PM

If you haven't checked the actual TDC and verified it matches your pointer you can't be sure of your timing. If you haven't verified that the cam is in sync with what you think the firing order is you can't be sure.

Cobradavid

07-07-2018, 06:44 PM

Thanks, guys. Good list of things to check out tomorrow. I've been working on this mostly by myself, so I haven't been able to tweak the distributor while cranking. I've already warned my wife that she's spending time in the garage with me tomorrow.

Stupid question: I really hope it's not the case, but if the long block remanufacturer used the wrong cam (one with the "old" SBF firing order), would I have valves crashing into pistons?

David

R. Button

07-07-2018, 11:35 PM

To help confirm if the timing order is as you expected I'd follow what you did for cylinder 1. Both valves closed rotor pointed to cylinder 1 then keep going through the expected firing order. See if each cylinder the valves are closed and roter pointed to the correct cylinder in the firing order. I suspect that it's something like what you are wondering about and this might help you find it. Is the cam set for the firing order you expected? I would hope the builder using whatever cam is in the engine has the cam set for the engine he is building. So would not expect valve/piston issues.

Fixit

07-08-2018, 06:07 AM

Get back to basics... Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow. If your have fuel, compression, and ignition at the correct time there is nothing that'll stop it from running.

(Lets clarify something for those that may not know this - there is no designated "#1" terminal on the distributor. You can make any terminal #1, as long as you index that terminal (while installing the distributor) to the compression stroke TDC on #1 Cylinder - and follow the correct firing order afterward.
This may be needed to gain timing "swing" on the distributor if the vacuum advance can or something is hitting something)

From your description, it sounds like it wants to run - and you may have a combination problem - fuel and timing/ignition.

I see you're running a Weiand dual plane. Do you have access to a known, working 4bbl carburetor, with the mixture & idle already set/known?
Pull the EFI throttle body off, bolt the carb on, and rig it up with an "IV gravity" feed fuel bottle.

Get the engine fired and running with this setup.
Eliminate the "what if's" of the EFI system. Once running you can set your initial timing, and eliminate every other question listed above. When you can get the engine to start, shut off, and run at your command, you now have a new baseline to work from.

Now throw the variables of the EFI system at it.

chuckster

07-08-2018, 09:58 AM

On my 302, I initially went with the 302 HO firing order. It started but ran very rough on 4 cylinders. I double checked and found that my new cam needed the older 289/302 firing order. Worth checking th literature that came with your cam (cam card). Good luck

TexasAviator

07-08-2018, 06:24 PM

I have the key to + on the coil at voltage. The negative - terminal is going to the coil wire on the fitech. You seem to describe what you have there is backwards. Also did you set your timing 10 degrees retarded. The initial setup sheet says to bring your timing 10 degrees back from TDC. This is required because there is a slight delay in timing with fitech. I have my fitech controlling fuel and spark. Works dangerously well. Also are you using VR COIL or or Tach in your initial setup? Are you using the black or the blue wire in the installation, you only use one or the other. LMK, i can help.

Cobradavid

07-08-2018, 08:00 PM

Thank you all for the excellent advice! The correct answer is "timing." :D

It turns out the harmonic balancer I have is marked for a timing pointer on the the passenger side. My timing cover has the pointer on the driver side. Sooooo, my timing was REALLY off - like over 70 degrees retarded. I checked #1 TDC by putting a drinking straw (a non-biodegradable straw :rolleyes:) in the spark plug hole and pulled the engine around by hand. Lo and behold the piston was well past TDC and heading down when the balancer said it should be at TCD. By rotating the engine by hand a few times, I established exactly where the piston TDC really was and then marked the balancer. I removed and reinstalled the distributor so the rotor would line up with #1 plug wire with the "new" (and correct) TDC marking. I put in about 10 degrees of advance and the engine fired right up the first time! Once I get an exhaust system on it, I'll refine the timing and idle speed.

Chuckster: the long block came with the cam installed and no cam card (it's supposed to be stock grind). Apparently, this engine is running the HO/Windsor firing order since it runs with the plug wires installed in that order.

TXAviator: I'm using the Pertronix module to trigger the coil, not the FiTech ECU. The coil (+) terminal is hot in run and start so I ran the FiTech white wire to that terminal also. The FiTech blue wire is on the coil (-) terminal for tach signal. I'm not using the black or yellow wires (I'm cycling the electric fan via a separate thermostat switch and relay).

Thanks again everyone for the advice and suggestions!

David

TexasAviator

07-08-2018, 08:54 PM

Good to hear and congrats

NAZ

07-08-2018, 09:26 PM

Great!

The most accurate way to locate TDC without removing the heads is to use a TDC locator. I make mine from old spark plugs but you can purchase these from performance parts retailers. They are a device that screws into a spark plug hole and is long enough to contact the piston and stop it just before TDC. You simply remove the #1 plug and rotate the crank until #1 is on the compression stroke. Install the locating device and continue turning the crank until the piston hits the device and stops the rotation. Place a mark on the balancer aligned with your TDC pointer. Rotate the crank in the opposite direction and when the piston contacts the stop place another mark aligned with the pointer. Carefully measure between the marks and the halfway point is TDC. You may choose to purchase a self adhesive degree tape to place on your balancer and this would be a good time to do that. Remember, they are made for specific diameter balancers so get the correct size or the degrees marked will be inaccurate.

I always locate the exact TDC on performance builds as you'd be amazed how many engines (even straight from the factory) are not aligned perfectly. Timing is critical when running near the limit on your advance.

Big Blocker

07-08-2018, 11:19 PM

David,

I'm a little confused here (old guy, dusty single brain cell) you mention in the first line that the block is stock with all stock parts, including the roller cam but mention "Windsor firing order". I'm thinking Windsor = 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8 . . . why would you run this order unless you changed cams with an early block firing order? Roller blocks are 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 (5.0 HO order). If you have it twisted, you'll only get it to fire on 1, 2, 6 & 8 as those are the only ones that remained from the old firing order. This would cause a rich condition as 4 cylinders are NOT firing when they need to. and would cause "sputtering".

FWIW, the best way to verify a cam firing order (without removing the valve covers) is the compression test used for finding #1 compression - pull all the plugs, verify #1 compression matches the crank damper, now put your finger in #3 and spin the engine a bit manually. If you feel compression at #3, you have a later cam firing order. If nothing, start over with #1 and this time put your finger in #5 hole. If there is compression, you have an early cam firing order.
Once verified which firing order you need to use, reinstall plugs, connect your spark plug wires where they belong and it should fire right up.

Your whole scenario sounds like when we (us old guys) were all getting used to the "new" firing order when the 351 was introduced and we were installing them in 289's and 302's.

Good luck.

Doc

Sorry, just read the post about your timing pointer . . . yes, your timing was out by 90°. That's the difference with the pointers position moving to the other side.

Cobradavid

07-09-2018, 07:57 PM

Doc,

Sorry for the confusion; this old-ish guy used the wrong terminology without thinking. The long block remanufacturer called it the "Windsor" firing order, but they probably should call it the HO order, or 351W, or 351C, or better yet, just say the order (1-3-7....).

David

Cobradavid

07-22-2018, 01:22 PM

As noted in previous posts, I got the timing issue worked out and the engine will start and run now. The engine runs fine when cold. When warmed up, the engine idles ok and will rev ok when not under any load. However, once it is warmed up, the engine hesitates and sputters when accelerating with any load.

I don't know if it's related to the problem, but the fuel pump is pretty loud at first. About the time the hesitating and sputtering starts to happen (when the engine warms up) the fuel pump sound changes and gets much quieter.

Reminder on the specs: new (re-manufactured) Small Block Ford (302) with stock heads, stock roller cam, Weiand 8124 dual plane intake manifold, stock cast exhaust manifolds (02 sensor is on the passenger side), new full exhaust system (Y-pipe to a single tail pipe and muffler), new Pertronix stock-look distributor with Igniter III module and Flame Thrower III coil, new plugs and wires, FiTech Go Street 400 HP system with frame mount in-line fuel pump (Kit #31003). FiTech is NOT being used for timing control or radiator fan control.

Any suggestions for why the engine bogs down under any load?

David

NAZ

07-22-2018, 03:36 PM

When up to operating temp the engine idles and runs good when not under a load, sputters when given some throttle under load -- I'd first look at the fuel system. From my experience I'd suspect a lean mixture causing the sputtering. Do you by chance have a portable wide band meter you can verify the AFR under various conditions? If not let's look at a couple of other things just to eliminate suspects.

When the sputtering starts is there a drop in fuel pressure? Does the pump put out the proper flow at the proper pressure (note: pressure and flow are inversely proportional)? That means you need the fuel delivery requirements from FiTech for your system and a way to measure them to be sure what you have and if it meets the requirements. Where did you mount the fuel pump? Near the tank and below the lowest fuel level? Are you sure you have an open tank vent?

Cobradavid

07-22-2018, 05:47 PM

NAZ,

Thanks for the reply and suggestions. I don't have a way to measure the AFR or fuel flow/pressure. However, the FiTech hand-held controller/tuner logs data so I put a couple log files on drop box. AFR and fuel flow (L/hr) are in the data, but I'm not finding fuel pressure data - there is fuel pump pulse width (msec) and fuel pump %.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p0ngwb7ino83tdr/AAA9jD8QY2bXqpuDMQPbIdfMa?dl=0

The Basic Sensors1 file is when I went for a short drive. There were several instances of sputtering/hesitating when trying to accelerate from a stop and upshift. Basic Sensors2 file is just engine idling, not driving and not revving.

The fuel pump was provided by FiTech as part of the kit, so I sure hope it's designed to put out the right flow and pressure! :D It's an in-line pump and it's mounted to the frame, about 2-3' from the fuel tank and lower than the lowest point of the tank. I don't have a tank vent, but I know the gas cap doesn't really seal (it's 52 years old). Should I try driving it with the cap off to see if inadequate tank venting is the problem?

Thanks!

David

RickP

07-22-2018, 06:06 PM

Hi Cobradavid -

1. How many miles do you have on the FiTech?
2. Where is your 02 sensor mounted?

TexasAviator

07-22-2018, 06:29 PM

Mine did this it's your tune. Richen up the quick accel and fast accel fuel lean it. It will learn once you get it closer and drive it over time.

RickP

07-22-2018, 06:36 PM

Hi Cobradavid -

1. How many miles do you have on the FiTech?
2. Where is your 02 sensor mounted?

You need to ensure your IAC Steps at warm idle are between 3-10. If it's anything other than between that range you need to correct it. Pretty simple to do but it takes some tinkering.

Turn the driver’s side throttle adjustment screw IN (clockwise) half a turn to start with, with that done turn the key on and go to dashboard and find TPS and make sure it reads zero. If not, then shut the key off and wait for the numbers to go black then turn the key on again. Once that reads zero start the vehicle and find IAC Steps on dashboard. This number needs to be within 3-10 at warm idle. If the number reads zero then slowly turn the screw OUT (counter clockwise) until the IAC steps reads between 3-10. If the number is above 10 then shut the vehicle off and turn the screw IN as stated above and repeat the process until the IAC steps are between 3-10.

once you have the IAC steps right, drive the car. If it still shows the same symptoms, you can tweak the ACCEL settings. Again, easy to do but takes some tinkering

If the system is having a hesitation or bogging issue, and you IAC steps are between 3-10 at warm idle, then your next step would be to adjust the accel pump function to increase or decrease the fuel added on acceleration. To start with turn the key to the on position and then find Go EFI Tuning on the main menu and press enter. Then find Accel pump and press enter. You will see a menu with multiple different settings, you need to focus on the Accel pumps (20f, 65f, 170f) and Fast Accel (20f, 65f, 170f). These setting adjust how much fuel, at varying temperatures, the system injects when you accelerate. Accel pump is used for any normal throttle input, Fast Accel is for any fast throttle inputs or Wide Open Throttle.

Hesitation: If the vehicle has a hesitation (when you step on the throttle and the engine does hangs and/ or almost dies and then suddenly take off) this normally is a lack of fuel so you would fix this by increasing the Accel Pump (for normal throttle input hesitations) or Fast Accel (for fast throttle or WOT inputs). You would make changes starting in increments of 10, to the temp range that you are finding the issue to reside in.

Bogging/engine loads up/slow to respond: If the vehicle is bogging (when you step on the throttle and the engine is slower/sluggish to come up to a higher rpm) this is normally caused by over fueling. To fix this you would need to reduce the amount of fuel it is injecting as an accel pump shot. To do this this decrease the Accel Pump (for normal throttle input hesitations) or Fast Accel (for fast throttle or WOT inputs). You would make changes starting in increments of 10, to the temp range that you are finding the issue to reside in.

Here's a link to a bunch of handy "basic" FiTech tuning
https://fitechefi.com/fitech-efi-basic-setup-instructions/

Cobradavid

07-23-2018, 10:13 PM

TexasAviator

07-23-2018, 11:37 PM

You will get there

RickP

07-24-2018, 08:07 AM

Thanks for the suggestions, guys.

The FiTech is new and there's only about 10-15 miles on it.
The O2 sensor is in the passenger side exhaust manifold port. It's a stock, cast exhaust manifold and the sensor port is just upstream of the flange for the down pipe.
In the data log file for when the engine was just idling, the IAC steps ranges from ~14 to over 80, but must of the time it's around 24. I'll try adjusting that tomorrow to get it between 3 and 10.

Looking at the data file when I did a short drive, it looks like it's too lean. AFR is 15 - 20 where TPS is above ~5%. I sure hope running that lean isn't hurting anything in the engine - even though it's only for a minute or two.

I sent the data log files to FiTech tech support with all the symptoms.

David

Sounds like you simply need to put some more miles on the FiTech. The base tune is pretty good out of the box but the longer it remains in learning mode, the better it gets. Can you post a pic of the 02 sensor location? When I first set mine up, I had the 02 sensor located in the header "upstream" of where the exhaust manifold meets all four pipes (last cylinder bank header pipe). It ran rich, and could barely stay at idle. After a quick call to Fitech, it was advised to move the sensor "downstream" of where the header meets the exhaust manifold. Essentially, the sensor needs to read all four cylinders at the same time. In my setup, I put the sensor in the side pipe. Night and day difference as to how it ran. Then it was just a matter of driving it.

TDSapp

07-24-2018, 10:16 AM

Since the FITech is new can't you call their tech support and ask them about it? They may have some trouble shooting tips to give you or even ask for a data log to be sent to them so they can evaluate it.

Cobradavid

07-24-2018, 05:57 PM

TxAviator,
Thanks for the encouragement! There's an answer out there somewhere, I just gotta find it. This is definitely an exercise in patience!

Rick,
Here's a photo of the driver's side before I installed the engine. The passenger side manifold is similar except the exit flange is behind the last cylinder (not between #3 and #4).
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89395&d=1532470906

Here's a link to a passenger side manifold
http://monsterautoparts.com/FORD/BRONCO/BRONCO%20IMAGES/674-153.jpg

The O2 sensor port is basically right next to where the manifold flange is for the exhaust pipe. Since the sensor port is next to the flange, the sensor should be reading all 4 cylinders on the passenger side.

Note this is NOT on a Cobra, but a 1966 Ranchero, so there's no side pipes. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that before :)

Unfortunately, the car isn't driveable since it has no power and barely runs at any throttle position other than idle. So I need to get it closer to driveable before the system will learn. I'm looking forward to it getting to the point when it's learning and improving the tune!

TDSapp,

I called FiTech last week and gave up after being on hold 15 minutes. I've been trading e-mails with their tech support. That process has been part of the "patience" exercise:
<me> ask questions and wait a day or two for an answer and list of things to check;
<Tech support> reply with something to check;
<me> check suggested stuff and report results and ask more questions, then wait a day or two for an answer....
Rinse and Repeat.

The FiTech tech support guy that I was emailing finally threw up his hands and told me to contact a couple other techs. He gave me their direct e-mails and extensions, so I sent them the data log files yesterday and called one of them today. After 10 minutes on hold, we finally got to have a conversation. He looked at the data file and didn't like the AFR of 20. He gave me some things to check with the fuel pump.

Looks like I'll be investing in a fuel pressure gauge. I'm not sure how I'll read a pressure gauge under the hood while I'm driving though....

Thanks for the suggestions and advice. Keep it coming!
David

RickP

07-25-2018, 08:53 AM

Looks like I'll be investing in a fuel pressure gauge. I'm not sure how I'll read a pressure gauge under the hood while I'm driving though....

David

I have faced this same quandary as well. The FiTech has a built in regulator (non-adjustable) @ 58psi. Your pump needs to be able to maintain at least that. I setup a gauge on my feed line but that can only be read with the hood open. As far as I know, you can't view fuel psi on the controller which I have mounted in the cockpit. You can view while driving every other known value under the sun but not fuel pressure. Maybe there's a way but I just haven't figured that out yet.

You will overcome my friend. Persistence through trial and error will get you up and running.

TDSapp

07-25-2018, 08:59 AM

Looks like I'll be investing in a fuel pressure gauge. I'm not sure how I'll read a pressure gauge under the hood while I'm driving though....

Thanks for the suggestions and advice. Keep it coming!
David

David,

I have a fuel pressure gauge that is on a fuel regulator that you can have. It came on the Carburetor that my dad got off a Vette and gave to me. I have no need for it as my Holley fuel pump has a built in regulator so I will mail it to you if you send me your address. Once done with it you can either keep it or send it to someone else that needs one.

Oh and it has a foot or two of steel braided line and AN -6 fitting on each side of it. You might be able to put it somewhere you can read it while driving.

NAZ

07-25-2018, 09:32 AM

David, if the fuel pump is intermittently dropping pressure and quickly recovering it may be the cause or the intermittent lean conditions you see on your data recording. It's very hard to keep the fire lit when you have AFR as lean as some of your data points show.

Unlike a carb, the FI requires a minimum pressure from the pump to properly atomize the fuel sprayed by the injector. If the fuel pressure drops significantly below that pressure you will expect to see a lean mixture while that condition exists (which could be very short in duration). So you want to look for gross pressure fluctuations and hopefully correlate that to the sputtering. That will likely mean you either need a passenger to ride with you with their eye glued to the gauge or a way to record the gauge data (video cam?).

But before you do anything else I suggest you do a cursory look at the fuel pump wiring circuit looking for a loose connection or bad ground. This is such an easy check that you may find a problem before you have to rig up other instrumentation. Loose connections are not uncommon on new installations (can happen to all of us) and can cause the pump to intermittently drop out briefly.

AZREALTOR

07-25-2018, 11:06 AM

I have experience with the installation of one Fitech unit although it was on a small block Chevy. As everyone else said you have to absolutely verify that TDC is truly TDC. We had the exact same issue you are having. On our installation we had locked the distributor and were using the Fitech for all timing. After talking to Fitech we installed an external fuel pressure regulator so we could verify fuel pressure externally and set it to our desired pressure ((can't remember exact setting but I think 48 PSI). This helped some but not much. We finally figured out we had locked the distributor but left the stock rotor in it. It ran about like yours. We put the adjustable rotor in it and set it per Fitechs recommendation and Voila! It has since proven to be an excellent setup although he only has a few thousand miles on it.

Olli

07-25-2018, 11:37 AM

Have you considered debris from the fuel tank? If the tank sat for an extended time with fuel in it perhaps old bad gas? Did you run all new fuel lines?

Olli

Cobradavid

07-25-2018, 06:20 PM

Good stuff, guys! Thanks.

TDSapp - I sent you a pm.

NAZ - Good point, I'll take a look at the fuel pump wiring also.

AZRealtor - Was your SBC application using the FiTech for timing control? I'm not using the FiTech for timing control, so I'm not sure if that matters or not.

Olli - Gas is new and so are the fuel lines. Good point on debris. The FiTech tech support guy thinks the problem could be related to fuel filter blockage. At his direction, I'm going to pull the filter elements out of the filters to see if the problem remains. I'll see if the filters are blocked with goop. I have a transparent filter right at the tank outlet just so I can catch the big pieces of debris before going into the finer FiTech pre- and post-pump filters. There is a little bit of debris in that filter so who knows what could be in the FiTech filters.

The silver lining in this whole situation is I've been driving my Cobra to work since I'm down one car. The down side is it's crazy hot (hit 101 last week) plus the normal insane humidity of Houston makes the afternoon drive home a bit toasty. :)

Thanks again - keep those suggestions coming. We'll figure out this bugger!

David

TexasAviator

07-26-2018, 12:54 PM

Pay close attention to the timing and distributor setup. My fitech is setup to control timing. I am running 15 degrees initial and 28 degrees at top for 475 hp verified on the dyno. The trick is to get your distributor setup properly, whether fitech controls it or not. They all have to be in sync.

I started the day off on Friday by packing up the engine and putting it in the truck. It was a 3 hour trip down to Spicewood near Austin and the day was beautiful and perfect for a drive. I stopped for gas but that was it since I really wanted to get this motor to the one of the greatest people I have ever met. Bob Lloyd or bobl on the forums.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4528/23935916087_89547ebb89_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Ct8PWp)20171203_003832 (https://flic.kr/p/Ct8PWp) by Brandon Fertig (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158928436@N07/), on Flickr

When I arrived he had his cobra sitting there looking all shined up. Bob is a very humble man and doest even have a build thread. Yet he has been building engines for years. He has a very extensive knowledge of all things mechanical and was a real gentleman. His wife was also just like him. Real salt of the earth people. Also did I mention they live in the most beautiful part of Texas. WOW

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4583/37914423495_dd610171a9_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZLnkbP)20171203_003924 (https://flic.kr/p/ZLnkbP) by Brandon Fertig (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158928436@N07/), on Flickr

After some lunch and a swig of water we started cracking on my humble 302. Its punched out to 347 and has some nice parts but they are nothing if I cant get them in tune with the rest of the engine and efi.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4548/37914425335_eea861027b_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZLnkJx)20171202_193600 (https://flic.kr/p/ZLnkJx) by Brandon Fertig (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158928436@N07/), on Flickr

When I arrived Bob had already started looking at my distributor and found out that it had to be adjusted and made to work with the Fitech EFI. The issue was that its not adjustable in the sense that it has to move the magnetic pickup. We decided we might drill and tap new holes for the magnet, hard mount a screw where the plastic was, or weld and drill a hole to retard the unit 10 degrees. Bob got out his calculator and knew that since we were moving the magnet and pickup and not the cap and rotor, we would have to advance the assembly so that the rotor sees a retard in timing. Its effectively backwards since we are moving a different part than Fitech recommended. In the directions they state that the timing is to be moved counter clockwise with an adjustable phase rotor. We didnt have one so we came up with this to solve the problem and make it more permanent for our application.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4554/27025443709_36a3fecbde_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Hb9sS2)20171201_204959 (https://flic.kr/p/Hb9sS2) by Brandon Fertig (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158928436@N07/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4533/24928002068_a75747d4c5_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/DYNwx7)20171203_004202 (https://flic.kr/p/DYNwx7) by Brandon Fertig (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158928436@N07/), on Flickr

As we stabbed the distributor, we marked cylinder 1, put the engine at TDC as best we could and looked at how we modified the distributor to allow us to make it work for the fitech unit.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4520/27025442989_5911440bf2_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Hb9sDB)20171201_221321 (https://flic.kr/p/Hb9sDB) by Brandon Fertig (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158928436@N07/), on Flickr

Once the ignition problem was solved, Bob had me look twice at my rockers. I had tightened them way too tight. He had me set them once again to zero lash and a half turn. Its a whole different world when you do the work with someone teaching you. I had done it using youtube videos but I was still wrong. I had to learn from the best.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4523/37914430415_fb2e11a517_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZLnnf8)20171201_204830 (https://flic.kr/p/ZLnnf8) by Brandon Fertig (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158928436@N07/), on Flickr

One we had the ignition fixed, the rockers set, it was time to set it up for the dyno.

Cobradavid

07-28-2018, 11:46 AM

The problem seems to be solved. When I installed the fuel system, I installed an extra fuel filter upstream of the FiTech pump pre-filter. That filter was partially clogged and definitely not capable of providing enough fuel flow. I took the filter out and now the car runs great! Just need to put some miles on it to let the FiTech brain learn the right tune.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions!

David

NAZ

07-28-2018, 01:34 PM

Great! Now enjoy the car.

TexasAviator

07-28-2018, 02:02 PM

Awesome, sometimes it's the simplest things.

Cobradavid

07-28-2018, 04:32 PM

Thanks, guys. The solution couldn't have come at a better time. There's rain in the forecast next week, so it's good I'll have the Ranchero to drive to work since the Cobra wouldn't be an option!

David

Cobradavid

08-06-2018, 09:31 PM

OK, so the problem is not solved.

The engine idles fine and revs fine when in neutral but it is still sputtering and hesitating when under any load.

On my drive to work this morning, it started hesitating a little upon light acceleration. On the way home (less than 6 miles), it died about 10 times.

I had the handheld controller with me so I logged the drive home. The data log shows three different error codes: 36, 74 and 105. The log also shows numerous extended periods of AFR in the 15-20 range which has me worrying about engine damage with it running that lean.

I inspected the filter elements of the pre-pump and post-pump filters and they were not clogged so I should have good fuel flow. I'm wondering if the frame-mount fuel pump they sold me is any good. It's REALLY loud when running - so loud, I can't even hear the engine running. Right before the engine starts all the sputtering and hesitating, the fuel pump gets quieter. It also just shut off about 3 times during the drive home as I was crawling along, with the engine idling and in 4th gear.

I called FiTech but they don't seem to ever answer their phones during their work hours. I've e-mailed them and sent the data log from today's drive home. We'll see what they say.

In the mean time, I'm very seriously considering chucking the whole EFI system and going with a carb, so I'd like suggestions.
Reminder on the specs:
1966 Ranchero (not a Cobra or any other sporty vehicle)
Remanufactured 302/5.0L long block for 94-96 Bronco/F-series/E-series, with stock roller cam, stock heads, stock crank, stock pistons
Stock exhaust manifolds
Weiand dual plane 4 bbl intake manifold (#8124)
PerTronix Flame-Thrower distributor (#D7134600) with Ignitor III module (has steel gear)
PerTronix Flame-Thrower III Ignition Coil (#44011)

This is a daily driver, so I want driveability and dependability. I don't need crazy power (don't want to break the T-5) and I don't want to spend hours trying to tune the carb.

Suggestions are welcome!

David

NAZ

08-06-2018, 10:27 PM

If you're not willing to "tune" a carb then that's not going to be the best choice. I believe you'd be better off finding the problem with your EFI or taking it to a shop and have them fix it.

You're describing a fuel supply issue and it seems the intermittent lean condition has been happening all along. If the pump is shutting off when you are driving the car I'd start there. The two most likely causes of the pump shutting off may be faulty wiring (and I'm including your power source in that) or a faulty pump. If you've verified all the wiring (including the ground -- and don't run a ground wire to aluminum) is good then you may want to hot wire the pump from a dedicated (and fused) circuit that you are sure will be constant hot while you perform another test drive. If the pump still drops out and nothing else is obvious it may be time to simply replace it and see if the problem persists.

I've never liked the idea that you power the EFI from the positive coil terminal -- don't know that this is a problem with your system but some systems don't like this power source. It's not the cleanest power but if the manufacturer's wiring diagram shows this as a point to pull power from that may not be a concern.

Railroad

08-07-2018, 07:46 AM

What is the filter you have on the tank side of the fuel pump? If it is more than just a screen or sock, it may be part or all of your problem. Is your external fuel pump lower than the gas tank? Unless your FI kit instructions spec a location, I would put it at the same level as the bottom of the tank. The pump should also be as close to the tank as possible, Pumps are made to push fuel. If you can attach a fuel pressure gauge to the system, run the hose out and tape the gauge to the windshield.
Keep posting, I will bet we can find the problem.

I re read the full post, OK I scanned it. Any chance your fuel tank is full of trash. It sounds like the clogged filter you found has come back. Maybe the pickup sock or screen is clogged.

Cobradavid

08-10-2018, 05:40 PM

Thanks for the replies, guys.

NAZ,
I've double- and triple-checked the pump wiring and ground and they're good. The data log files show good voltage to the FiTech unit (which supplies the power to the pump). So I leaning towards faulty pump, not faulty power or wiring. The last time I drove the car (Monday), several times the pump got a little quieter and then just shut off. I turned off the key and turned it back on and the pump started running again - full volume. FiTech tech support has agreed to look at the pump, so I'm shipping it back to them for them to test. We'll see what the test results reveal. I'm also wondering about the throttle body unit itself. When I received it, it had a faint smell of gasoline. I've asked FiTech tech support if they test every throttle body with gas prior to sale, but they haven't answered yet. If I received a used unit, sold as a new one, I'm going to be a bit upset.

At this point, I would welcome spending a weekend fine-tuning a carb! It may still come to that.

Railroad,
I'm using the FiTech-supplied filters and pump. The pre-pump filter is a 100 micron, sintered metal filter. It and the pump are mounted lower than the tank bottom and less than 3 feet of hose from the tank. The post-pump filter is a 60 micron metal screen filter. Both can be opened up and the filter elements inspected and cleaned. I checked both that they're not blocked.

I'm going to drop the tank tomorrow and clean it out to make sure there's no junk in it.

David

brewha

08-11-2018, 09:10 AM

My Fitech had an odor to it when it was new, but it was more like a starter fluid... While your tank is out you may want to blow out the fuel lines in case some thing is lodged in there.

Papa

08-11-2018, 10:33 AM

Is it possible you have contamination in the fuel system. You mentioned that you had a clogged filter in an earlier post.

i.e.427

08-11-2018, 06:54 PM

Certainly sounds like vapor lock to me. I'm not a fan of in-line pumps for just that reason. FiTech was very careful when answering my question on whether I could use the stock Ford in-tank pump when I recently did a FiTech install on a customer car. I got the feeling they were trying to up sell us on their fuel command unit. Turns out the Ford in-tank pump work perfect.

Cobradavid

08-12-2018, 07:05 PM

Thanks, guys.

The FiTech pump is on its way back to them for testing. I dropped the tank yesterday and it was clean. The last ~pint of fuel I poured out of it had a very small amount (probably a gram or two) of very fine particulate. Certainly not anything big or not enough to clog any filter. The fuel pickup tube has a screen on it and the screen was also clean.

Per brewha's advice, I also blew out all the fuel lines while I had stuff apart. I didn't see any contamination blown out.

i.e.427, I'm 99% sure this isn't the original fuel tank, but it's still an original style (1966) Ford Ranchero replacement tank and doesn't have provisions for an in-tank pump. If I go that route, I'll have to get a different tank also. One thing that sold me on this FiTech system was not requiring an in-tank pump and being able to use their in-line pump.

We'll see what FiTech's pump test/inspection reveals and go from there.

Silver lining: although it will be stinkin' hot tomorrow (it's August in Houston, so of course it's hot), the forecast has negligible precipitation so I'll be driving the cobra to work!

David

Cobradavid

08-13-2018, 06:03 PM

FYI - I heard back from FiTech and they DO test every unit on a running engine. That explains the slight gasoline smell. Good to know.

David

AZREALTOR

08-20-2018, 10:15 AM

Curious as to whether you heard back from Fitech regarding testing your pump? While this certainly has all the indications of a fuel starvation issue it is still the same symptoms we had when we installed my brother's Fitech which turned out to be timing and was solved by adding the adjustable rotor. We chased fuel etc just as you are doing. When talking to Fitech they never talked about the adjustable rotor. He had bought their complete kit so we just didn't put 2 and 2 together until we talked to their tech guy. You must have the Fitech "paddle"on the distributor shaft lined up (centered) with it's signal unit and at the same time the rotor has to be pointed at #1 (in our case). This could not be accomplished with the fixed rotor. We could get on the edge of each which allowed it to start but it ran just like yours. We put the adjustable rotor in it, set the paddle correctly and lined the rotor up with number one and locked it down. After that we just adjusted the timing as normal and all is right with the world!

Cobradavid

08-20-2018, 08:31 PM

AZRealtor,

Thanks for the information. The data log shows the AFR going way lean (15-20) when the engine starts the hesitating and sputtering thing. Did your brother have that on his system? I'm not using the FiTech to trigger my timing, so would the adjustable rotor be a factor in this?

I haven't heard back from FiTech yet on testing the pump. They've had the pump for a week now.

David

AZREALTOR

08-21-2018, 07:19 PM

The data logger did show lean which is why Fitech suggested putting the stand alone pressure regulator on which we did. Basically all it ended up doing was verifying it wasn't a fuel pressure issue. Even though you are not using the Fitech to set timing, when the engine is at TDC the rotor needs to be in the correct position (centered) on number one plug wire while the Fitech Paddle on the distributor shaft is centered on the trigger mechanism. You can then adjust timing normally from there. With a fixed rotor we could get close enough on the paddle sensor and the distributor cap to make it run but could not get the timing adjusted correctly and as I said it ran and drove just as you are describing.

Cobradavid

08-21-2018, 08:16 PM

AZRealtor,

Thanks again for the information. I don't have a FiTech paddle on my distributor. My FiTech is getting the tach signal by attaching the blue wire to the coil (-) terminal.

I just got an e-mail from FiTech and the fuel pump tested bad, so they're sending me a new one. Hopefully that will resolve the issue!

David

Mustang Man

08-31-2018, 07:57 AM

A little late to the convo, but I've installed a FiTech in a '66 Mustang with their Fuel Command unit in the top of the tank and have had no such issues. Certainly sounded like a fuel issue and hope the replacement pump fixes it. Worked on a few Rancheros in my time an sadly, though the tank LOOKS like a Mustang tank (inverted) the current line of drop-in EFI tanks for classic Mustangs won't work on the Ranchero. You'd have to modify the tank with something like the Fuel Command unit or a basic EFI pump tray from Tanks Inc or the Aeromotive Stealth setup.

However, I do have a suggestion to check fuel pressure, as I recently set one of these up to verify pressure on a Holley Sniper EFI install. Earl's sells a 0-100 EFI gauge and a AN -6 fuel gauge adapter. It allows you to simply unscrew the supply line from the TBI and put the gauge in-line. If you want to see the gauge while driving simply extend the gauge from the port with a small -4 AN hose and some NPT adapters.

https://www.holley.com/products/plumbing_an_fittings_and_hose/fuel_system_components/gauge_adapters/fuel_pressure_gauge_adapters/parts/AT100199ERL

https://www.holley.com/products/plumbing_an_fittings_and_hose/fuel_system_components/gauges/parts/100187ERL

HTH...
Mark