Roll Bar Height?

[cv2065]

I don't my kit yet to measure, but the FFR roll bars in some pictures look proportional and in others they look kind of tall? Has anyone done any 'self adjustment' to these? I've read that some 3rd party roll bars may be a little shorter, but wanted to get some opinions. Thanks!

[GoDadGo]

I've shortened the stock bars by about 1.5".
All I did was grind off the spot welds that Factory-5 placed to limit how far the bars would drop.
It does create a slight off beat angle of the support, but it isn't that noticeably, but you can judge for yourself in the attached video:

https://youtu.be/IGYtX-3p7xk

I also shorted the wheelbase .75" to .80" to better center the rear wheels, but I have fully embraced The Dark Side.

[mburger]

Well, there are looks and there is protection.
God forbid you roll over, you want the tallest roll bar.
Just looks, well whatever.
Remember, they are called roll bars for a reason.

[edwardb]

You're probably seeing lots of variations. Stock Mk4 roll bars (which you have obviously), stock Mk3 and earlier roll bars, Breeze roll bars, and then modded ones like GoDadGo mentioned. Mk4 bars are 1-1/2 inch diameter and agree they look a little tall. Mk3 and earlier are 2-inch diameter, so while maybe not any taller, look a little more proportional. Breeze bars are 1-3/4 inch diameter and slightly shorter, plus tipped back. So are probably the best looking. But they take some work fitting, welding, and finishing. But in the end, agree it's about safety. The infamous "broom stick rule" applies. Your head (with helmet if tracking) should be below a line (or broom stick) drawn between the top of the roll bar and the nose of the car. The windshield doesn't count. It will fold like origami. Depending on your height, your seats, etc. the actual roll bar height required varies a little. But the stock Mk4 roll bars offer the best protection for most.

[GoDadGo]

Well, there are looks and there is protection.
God forbid you roll over, you want the tallest roll bar.
Just looks, well whatever.
Remember, they are called roll bars for a reason.

Excellent Point:
We aren't the tallest folks and have the lower "Big & Tall Seats -with- Breeze Brackets" so our heads are a good bit lower than the lowered bars, even with helmets on our beloved noggins!

[cv2065]

As always, thanks for the detailed feedback guys. As Paul suggests, I'll do some 'broomstick rule' measurements once I get everything in place. Safety is priority of course, but if I can get form WITH function, I'm all for it!!

Thanks for the suggestion GoDadGo! And the waterlines you show in your video are amazing...and I've seen some flooding in South Florida!

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Not happy with the "look" of the stock bars. That said most of us spend more time in the car without our helmets on. My bald head likes the extra clearance to the ground the stock bars provide.

[Avalanche325]

FFR made their roll bars taller than the originals to meet requirements for racing. I believe it was NASA specs.

With the height of the originals, if you ever go over, the top of your head is gong to be shaped just like Herman Munster's.

[cv2065]

With the height of the originals, if you ever go over, the top of your head is gong to be shaped just like Herman Munster's.

LOL...Let's hope I never have to test it.....

[SLOKarl]

In addition to adequate roll bar height, I like the safety of high back seats - which serve as head restraints. I can't imagine driving without high back seats.

[Jeff Kleiner]

FFR made their roll bars taller than the originals to meet requirements for racing. I believe it was NASA specs.



Actually, while offering some degree of protection the roadster bars do not meet the requirements for ANY organization; not SCCA, not NASA, not NHRA. Challenge car cage meets NASA and SCCA.

Jeff

[davekp]

Actually, while offering some degree of protection the roadster bars do not meet the requirements for ANY organization; not SCCA, not NASA, not NHRA. Challenge car cage meets NASA and SCCA.

Jeff

I question how much these roll bars will actually protect. Does anyone have a photo of a roadster that has been rolled?

[Papa]

Not a roll over crash, but definitely shows roll bar failure. I still can't figure out what could cause that much damage???


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH9YC78cBt4

[edwardb]

I question how much these roll bars will actually protect. Does anyone have a photo of a roadster that has been rolled?

Option 1: Go upside down with nothing but my head (and my passengers) to hold things up.

Option 2: Go upside down with the existing roll bar (or roll bars) in place.

I choose option 2 without thinking about it. Even if not approved by sanctioning bodies for competition use. They are frame mounted, and if you've ever tried to bend or adjust them, you know they're pretty stout. Actually though, I choose option 3. Keeping it upright.


Not a roll over crash, but definitely shows roll bar failure from a rear-end collision.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH9YC78cBt4

Ouch. That's a really hard hit and pretty extreme. Couldn't have been good for whoever was in the car. I'd question whether the roll bars failed though. At least not the primary failure. The frame was folded moving the mounts. Caused them to angle over.

[GoDadGo]

From The Dad Side Once More:

1. For the record, I love the way these cars look with no scoops, no hoops and no side pipes, but I feel these cars need at least some roll over protection.

2. My roll bars bottom out on frame instead of the tack welds placed on the frame by the crew at Factory-5 Racing.

3. I then replaced the the stock bolts with two larger Grade-8 bolts on each of the main two hoops.

4. Those bolts are 90 degrees apart and about 1.5" above each other.

4. The support bolts were also replaced with Grade-8 bolts as well, though only one for each connection.

"The Dad-Theory" is to reduce the the chance of any bolt getting sheared off in the event of a roll over since the tubes are now sitting on the frame. While this did lower the bars, something I like, our noggins are still well below the bars and pass the broom stick test thanks to Breeze Seat Brackets and the lower Big & Tall F-5 seats being used.

Safety First When Dealing With A Very Deadly Serpent That We All Feel Is The Coolest Car On The Planet!

[DadofThree]

I question how much these roll bars will actually protect. Does anyone have a photo of a roadster that has been rolled?


Video showing Roll Bar helping Dave Smith. It's more robust than the roll bar that we have, but I'm glad it was there for him.

https://youtu.be/_gBLUD-XoLQ?t=1m36s88419

[Papa]

From The Dad Side Once More:

1. For the record, I love the way these cars look with no scoops, no hoops and no side pipes, but I feel these cars need at least some roll over protection.
2. My roll bars bottom out on frame instead of the tack welds placed on the frame by the crew at Factory-5 Racing.
3. I then replaced the the stock bolts with two larger Grade-8 bolts on each of the main two hoops.
4. The support bolt was also replaced with Grade-8 bolts as well.

"The Dad-Theory" is to reduce the the chance of any bolt getting sheared off in the event of a roll over since the tubes are now sitting on the frame.

Steve,

My chassis doesn't have any of the welds you are describing. My bars go all the way to the frame as delivered from FFR.

Dave

[GoDadGo]

Steve,

My chassis doesn't have any of the welds you are describing. My bars go all the way to the frame as delivered from FFR.

Dave

Glad They Made This Change!

[Jeff Kleiner]

Yeah, here's that well known "test" that Dave performed at RunN'Gun.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=88420&d=1530895378

That video of the one getting loaded on the rollback makes it look like both rear legs disengaged from the hoops; I could see no signs of there having been through bolts and have to wonder if they were not attached at the top???

OK, I have to say it even though it may not be a popular opinion...although the Factory Five roadster bar or bars have their limitations if a builder is truly concerned about safety give real consideration to whether some of the aftermarket alternatives for bars or methods of attachment are having a positive or negative impact on functionality vs. what FFR provides and recommends for means of installation.

Jeff

88420

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Steve,

My chassis doesn't have any of the welds you are describing. My bars go all the way to the frame as delivered from FFR.

Dave

Agree, maybe it was a running change in production.

[GoDadGo]

If You Can Flip An Under Powered Miata, Then You Can Most Certainly Flip More Powerful Open Top Cars!

https://youtu.be/OfWjXzvVoL0

https://youtu.be/3Q2uUW_xpBM

Broom Stick Da-Bars Before Any Thought Of Shortening Them!

[Papa]

That video of the one getting loaded on the rollback makes it look like both rear legs disengaged from the hoops; I could see no signs of there having been through bolts and have to wonder if they were not attached at the top???


I was thinking the exact same thing. I'll be using the Tangent attachment system on mine. It seems pretty stout and I would guess if installed properly would be adequate for a street-driven car.

[BrewCityCobra]

Do the shorter Breeze roll bars generally pass the broomstick test?

[G-Pete]

The 2 inch "difference"....case closed.88498

[G-Pete]

That is how it looks like when you roll in soft ground....88499

[G-Pete]

......and quite frankly, in case of an accident - the roll bar is the last what I'm concerned off!! 88500

[cv2065]

......and quite frankly, in case of an accident - the roll bar is the last what I'm concerned off!! 88500

Wow...That's nasty....

[Jim1855]

Just an FYI. If you are planning HPDE the various groups have their own rules and regulations. Even with a full width bar that would pass the broomstick test the local (MI) Lotus group wouldn't let me run. They were polite but declined my registration. May have been the rollbar but I had more protection than the open Lotus cars, may also have been that it was a Cobra and they were afraid that I wouldn't play nice. No issues with many other run groups at 3 different tracks.
Jim

[cv2065]

may also have been that it was a Cobra and they were afraid that I wouldn't play nice.

Sounds definitely like this....

[GoDadGo]

That is how it looks like when you roll in soft ground....88499

This Must Have Flipped In Louisiana!

[BEAR-AvHistory]

......and quite frankly, in case of an accident - the roll bar is the last what I'm concerned off!! 88500

Yeah, non survivable accidents are a fact of life, no pun intended. That said in another case a roll bar might save one, so why not include it. I don't see many people pulling airbags out of their cars because they are no use in a catastrophic accident like in the picture.

Was the same deal when seat-belts first came out for personal cars. Lots of "I would rather be thrown clear then burn to death trapped in a belt."

[walt mckenna]

[QUOTE=Jeff Kleiner;331218]Actually, while offering some degree of protection the roadster bars do not meet the requirements for ANY organization; not SCCA, not NASA, not NHRA. Challenge car cage meets NASA and SCCA.

Jeff[/QUOTE

While not meeting the requirements for sanctioned racing, the standard bars do meet the requirement for NASA HPDE.

[G-Pete]

Ok here is one with the roll bar at the same height as the windshield....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQkqkOwuqac

[sbhunter]

I was at Run and Gun in St. Louis and witnessed Dave roll the car in the video. I have had a pic of the rolled car in my shop ever since. I watched them put it back on the track soon after with duct tape holding the body together. I was convinced then that FFR had the product that I wanted to build. I used larger 7/16” bolts at the bottom and made sure there was shank clear through the bar. I am using the Tangent wedge at the top and am convinced it is plenty strong.