steering too quick

[alv69]

I have a mk3 with a 2.5 turn lock to lock rack and pinion and it is a little dicey when changing lanes ect. is there a rack with a little more turns lock to lock?

[CraigS]

Yes. Breeze sells this. Oh, well,, they used to sell a 3.0 turns rack but i don't see it. So next is autozone
#6406; 3.0 turns lock to lock
#6439; 2.5 turns lock to lock
#64163 2.25 turns lock to lock
I agree, loved the 2.5 in autocross and hated it on the street. So I have the 3.0. Just to be sure you have checked other possible causes though;
-is front tire pressure 20-22#s
-is front toe-IN at 1/8 to 3/16 total?
-have you cut the pressure spring in the pump or installed a Heidt's valve to reduce assist? (BTW, I prefer cutting the spring which is nice since it' free)

[alv69]

Yes. Breeze sells this. Oh, well,, they used to sell a 3.0 turns rack but i don't see it. So next is autozone
#6406; 3.0 turns lock to lock
#6439; 2.5 turns lock to lock
#64163 2.25 turns lock to lock
I agree, loved the 2.5 in autocross and hated it on the street. So I have the 3.0. Just to be sure you have checked other possible causes though;
-is front tire pressure 20-22#s
-is front toe-IN at 1/8 to 3/16 total?
-have you cut the pressure spring in the pump or installed a Heidt's valve to reduce assist? (BTW, I prefer cutting the spring which is nice since it' free)

tire pressure is 20lbs.
manual steering box.
toe is 1/8 in.
need a manual rack with 3-31/2 turns lock to lock.

[mike223]

need a manual rack with 3-31/2 turns lock to lock.



Your two choices in manual racks are 15:1 or 20:1 - you *probably* have a 15:1 rack (most common manual rack).

Alternatively, you could add a 1.5:1 steering quickener in backwards (might be easier + cheaper).

Like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/COLEMAN-MACHINE-22369-Steering-Quickener (https://www.ebay.com/itm/COLEMAN-MACHINE-22369-Steering-Quickener-1-5-1-2-Bolt-Mount/401500645943?hash=item5d7b4daa37:g:ZVoAAOSw88hamA5 9)

[Clover]

Easiest and cheapest is to slow down your hands. The rack is not dicey, how quickly you are turning the wheel is. Just adjust your steering inputs. Changing a steering rack when you can just make a small change is your driving inputs seems rather foolish to me but to each their own.

[mike223]

Easiest and cheapest is to slow down your hands. The rack is not dicey, how quickly you are turning the wheel is. Just adjust your steering inputs. Changing a steering rack when you can just make a small change is your driving inputs seems rather foolish to me but to each their own.

I tend to agree - not sure how you could possibly keep up with the (immediate) inputs needed for, ummm, "enthusiastic driving" with a slower rack...

[skidd]

I too have a 2.5 rack (power) and initially I didn't like it. It was too quick, and too twitchy. I currently need more caster mind you. I was looking to get a slower rack... then.. one day with a little over-use of the gas-pedal on a corner, the back-end got out.. like it does. Quick jab at the wheel and I was back under full control in a blink. I'm in love with the fast-ratio now. So much easier to get correct with smaller movements. To each his own, but I'd encourage you to drive it a while and see how it feels. That's just my 02c for ya.

[alv69]

I have driven it 800 miles and just not happy with the quick steering, I had a rack in my race car like this and it was too fast for even that[ northeast modified] and I switched that one out. it is an easy job to switch racks wondering if someone has one?

[JRD56]

I just finished my build, have about 500 miles on it. Initially the quick steering was unsettling, like when entering the freeway from a ramp. But I'm much more comfortable with it now. I'd suggest driving it more before you make a decision to change it. I'm leaving mine like it is.

[Dave Howard]

Try a different driving style. Most people place their hands at the top (2 and 10 o'clock position) or the side (3 and 9 o'clock position) on the steering wheel. Try lowering your elbows into your waste and place your hands at the 4:30 and 7:30 position. This will limit the possibility of oversteer.

[mike223]

I have driven it 80 miles and just not happy with the quick steering, I had a rack in my race car like this and it was too fast for even that[ northeast modified] and I switched that one out. it is an easy job to switch racks wondering if someone has one?

It depends what you want to do with the car.

If you just want to cruise - a 20:1 might make you happy.

Go autocross it and when you find yourself boxed into a tight 90 you'll find you already have to get a full turn on the wheel to get into the corner (with a 15:1), and you'll have to get that full turn back out (+ ready for more) before you can pick back up on the throttle...

I'm running a 2:1 steering quickener on a 15:1 rack (=7.5:1) and it's the best thing I ever did to the car.

You can't stand that without some form of PS (EPAS here).


And you definitely have to adapt your hand speed / steering inputs (think F1 / Indy car).


I agree you should drive it more than 80 miles before trying to change the essential nature of the car / what it was actually made to do.

Try an autocross or two.

[alv69]

It depends what you want to do with the car.

If you just want to cruise - a 20:1 might make you happy.

Go autocross it and when you find yourself boxed into a tight 90 you'll find you already have to get a full turn on the wheel to get into the corner (with a 15:1), and you'll have to get that full turn back out (+ ready for more) before you can pick back up on the throttle...

I'm running a 2:1 steering quickener on a 15:1 rack (=7.5:1) and it's the best thing I ever did to the car.

You can't stand that without some form of PS (EPAS here).


And you definitely have to adapt your hand speed / steering inputs (think F1 / Indy car).


I agree you should drive it more than 80 miles before trying to change the essential nature of the car / what it was actually made to do.

Try an autocross or two.

corrected the post I have 800 miles on the car.

[mike223]

corrected the post I have 800 miles on the car.

Ok - if you've done 800 miles and you haven't found anything you want to do with the car that requires a fast bunch of hand over hand on the steering wheel...

A 20:1 might make you happier.

[alv69]

does anyone have one they want to part with?

[Clover]

I'm sorry, after years as a driving skills coach, this is just a pet peeve of mine. There is nothing wrong with your rack but you do need to correct your driving. The faster you are moving, the slower you should be turning the wheel. If you want to be a safe driver, you need to improve your driving skills, not your car.

[CraigS]

I'm sorry, after years as a driving skills coach, this is just a pet peeve of mine. There is nothing wrong with your rack but you do need to correct your driving. The faster you are moving, the slower you should be turning the wheel. If you want to be a safe driver, you need to improve your driving skills, not your car.

I disagree. Most of us have a different daily driver car. We also drive other cars occasionally. If you hop in the cobra and feel the steering is too quick, yes you can live w/ it, yes you can re-calibrate yourself. But after 800 miles, if the OP still doesn't like it, I think he should change it. One advantage of building one's own car is the ability to make it what YOU want. To me, the last line above comes off as condescending and is not helpful.

[alv69]

I'm sorry, after years as a driving skills coach, this is just a pet peeve of mine. There is nothing wrong with your rack but you do need to correct your driving. The faster you are moving, the slower you should be turning the wheel. If you want to be a safe driver, you need to improve your driving skills, not your car.

I am not racing the car just cruising and want to be able to not have the car switch lanes with a slight turn of the wheel.

[Murd]

I’ve got about 800 miles on mine now too and have the FFR 18:1 manual rack, which is about 3 1/4 turns, besides slow speeds being obviously heavy, I’m thinking I would like a faster rack, I can see why guys want the fast power racks for autocross, tighter turns and especially trying to catch the rear end in a slide I would like a faster rack.
It’s responsive but not twitchy on the highway, pretty cruisy, I imagine you would like it.

[Mark Reynolds]

Here is the Breeze manual rack with rack extenders.
http://www.breezeautomotive.com/details.php?prod_id=1011&cat_id=12
It is between the Flaming River 4 turn and the typical "quick ratio" manual racks.

Looks like a trade between Murd and Alv69 might work!

[mike223]

Here is the Breeze manual rack with rack extenders.
http://www.breezeautomotive.com/details.php?prod_id=1011&cat_id=12
It is between the Flaming River 4 turn and the typical "quick ratio" manual racks.

Looks like a trade between Murd and Alv69 might work!


I think they had better compare some precise measurements - including what specific spindles they're using - because they may find they both have the same exact rack...


The only one I see listed direct from FFR is 15:1 - #12619

[mike223]

I think they had better compare some precise measurements - including what specific spindles they're using - because they may find they both have the same exact rack...




To further elaborate - we can't talk in terms of the OP's 2.5 turns vs. Alv69's 3.25 turns because we don't know how many steering limiters are installed in each (or if any - but most have some installed).

Add to that manufacturing variables between Unisteer / Flaming River / whoever makes what FFR is currently selling / or used to sell.


So to compare apples to apples you'd need to know precisely how much steering rack throw you get out of a single turn or maybe two turns of the steering wheel (whatever works better).


Even talking in terms of 15:1 or 20:1 is an approximation since we don't know who's using what for spindles (and don't forget Ackermann - try and get a firm ratio on that, lol)

[Murd]

I’d explore a trade but since I am in Canada I think shipping would be prohibitively expensive. Not to mention waiting till I could drive again.

I was wondering the same about spindle length, I have the sn95 94-95s and wondered if anyone had checked out of the new FFR spindles had a different length/ratio.

No limiters on mine, as far as I’m aware.

[mike223]

No limiters on mine, as far as I’m aware.




I think if you can't jam a tire / wheel against something on at least one side at lock you've almost certainly got some in there.

The reason to put them in is to prevent that from ever happening.

I hear 3/4" PVC pipe works very well - cut to fit - I used Ford parts before I heard about PVC.

[Murd]

I never thought to look for limiters. Mine rubbed at full droop on jack stands but not at ride height. I’ve got 235 60 15s so not as wide as some.

[Dave Howard]

I’d explore a trade but since I am in Canada I think shipping would be prohibitively expensive. Not to mention waiting till I could drive again.

I was wondering the same about spindle length, I have the sn95 94-95s and wondered if anyone had checked out of the new FFR spindles had a different length/ratio.

No limiters on mine, as far as I’m aware.

Where are you in Ontario? We just finished a couple thousand K trip last week through most of southern Ontario. North Bay to Midland, Collingwood, Port Elgin, Goderich, Stratford, Woodstock, Port Dover, Niagara on the Lake, Port Perry, Peterborough, Bobcaygeon, Huntsville, North Bay. Spent 3 hours on QEW and 401. That was enough. Another road trip planned for September.

[Murd]

Dave, I’m in Alliston, just southwest of barrie. I’m headed to the cottage in Haliburton for the summer this weekend though. I work from home and wife is off on maternity leave so summer at the lake and twisty northern roads!

[johnnybgoode]

I have a mk3 with a 2.5 turn lock to lock rack and pinion and it is a little dicey when changing lanes ect. is there a rack with a little more turns lock to lock?

I was able to calm the twitchiness down by adding more castor and a bit more toe in. I have a power rack so went to 8*, you probably can't go that far with a manual rack but it might be worthwhile to check to make sure you are at least at 3* and maybe try an extra 1/16th toe in before you swap out the rack? Scott

[Big Blocker]

Not sure if Flaming River still sells their rack that was available back when I built my MKII but it is 4 turns lock-to-lock - I believe that works out to a 20:1 ratio.
It's been in the car for fifteen years and I love it . . . manual steering that feels like power. Not the least bit "twitchy" on the road and easy to park - not one finger easy but not a struggle.

Just my 2¢

Doc

[alv69]

thanks for all the replies but now wondering if someone has a manual rack they did not use that they would part with that is 3 1/2 -4 turns lock to lock.

[Dave Howard]

That Minden to Huntsville portion on Hwy35 was a hoot in the roadster. The Tims stop at Minden became a mini car show. It would be absolutely beautiful in October. Enjoy the summer at the lake.

[Murd]

Dave,
If you are ever back down there let me know, I’ll send you a pm. Hwy 118 and 117 that run from 35 west to 11 put 35 to shame.
Anyway glad you had a great trip, I’m about 20 min north of Minden, always a place for you to stay.

[davekp]

Try a different driving style. Most people place their hands at the top (2 and 10 o'clock position) or the side (3 and 9 o'clock position) on the steering wheel. Try lowering your elbows into your waste and place your hands at the 4:30 and 7:30 position. This will limit the possibility of oversteer.

Well...…………..
I was skeptical of this at first, but gave it a try.
Amazing!
A very different feel. With my elbows down at my sides, I was controlling minor steering inputs with my wrists and elbows, not my shoulders as when my hands are higher on the wheel.
Investigating further, I found my daily drivers are driven with my elbows resting on the console and door rest. When I raised them and drove more straight-armed, there was more "twitchiness".

I added a Heidts valve, turned 4 turns out, and am now pretty satisfied with the feel.

[Dave Howard]

Well...…………..
I was skeptical of this at first, but gave it a try.
Amazing!
A very different feel. With my elbows down at my sides, I was controlling minor steering inputs with my wrists and elbows, not my shoulders as when my hands are higher on the wheel.
Investigating further, I found my daily drivers are driven with my elbows resting on the console and door rest. When I raised them and drove more straight-armed, there was more "twitchiness".

I added a Heidts valve, turned 4 turns out, and am now pretty satisfied with the feel.

I was introduced to this driving style a couple years ago through a law enforcement buddy. The "shuffle" technique is taught in some high performance driving schools.
Its the only way I drive my roadster on the highway.

[davekp]

One more thing...
I found my steering wheel hub was a little loose on the shaft. Not much, but enough to make the steering "notchy". I slit the hub and installed a split shaft collar over the back side of the hub and that tightened up the slop. Feels much better now. The flats on the shaft are undersized in my opinion, allowing the slop to occur.