Intermittent Starter problem with my 2015 Roush Coyote

[Larry Johnson]

After 25 months in construction, I finally have my 2016 Mk IV on the road in Texas. I built the car with an all-new 5.0 Gen2 Coyote I bought from Roush Racing in Detroit, the day after I attended Build School in Michigan. I got the Quicktime bell housing Powermaster starter. After a recent stop (luckily outside my house) the starter did not engage when I attempted to fire it back up.
A good friend and I pulled the starter and lubricated the gear shaft and reinstalled it. Still did not engage. I called Roush who immediately offered to forward a new starter to me. I asked them to hold a bit until we were more confident of the problem. We then tried rocking the car to move the flywheel a bit and then turned the key. Started right up.
In the 10 days since, it has started properly about 8 out of 10 times. When I get the grinding noise, I repeat the slight rocking action to move the flywheel and it starts.
So far, Roush has been responsive to my questions and stands ready to stand behind their warranty. I hope! They mounted the flywheel when I bought the engine.

The Tremec 600 I bought from Roush has a slight leak on the top where the mid shifter (they installed) is mounted.
They appear to be ready to pay for that repair, once I pull the tranny and take it to their guy in Ft Worth. If I have to pull the tranny, it is obviously a good time to check the flywheel for whatever might be wrong. i.e. gear ring backwards or whatever.

Any ideas? Thanks in advance.

[Itchief]

Larry

Have you looked at checking the index on the starter my powermaster starter would allow you to change the index so that it would engage better with the flywheel

Good luck

Rick

[Jacob McCrea]

I have a similar problem with my 1994 Nissan Pathfinder. Basically, when I turn the key I often get a clicking noise, presumably the starter gear engaging the flywheel (manual transmission), but not actually turning the engine over. To get it to start I'll rock the car backwards or forwards, thus (I assume) taking a cylinder past top dead center on the compression stroke, or "backing a cylinder up" a bit, making it easier to spin the engine (like taking a big-bore dirt bike past TDC, then kicking it). The problem is really bad in warmer temperatures or after running for a while, and almost non-existent below 20 degrees. After much thought and research, I think the problem is an undersized wire somewhere in the starting circuit, which does not let sufficient amps flow to the starter. I've changed the starter and the ignition switch, and added redundant grounds to the starter, which helped but did not end the problem.

I would consider searching for the threads on this forum discussing whether the FFR-supplied 4AWG starter cable is adequate. You may need to upgrade to 2AWG wire. I hope this is helpful.

[2bking]

Larry

Have you looked at checking the index on the starter my powermaster starter would allow you to change the index so that it would engage better with the flywheel

Good luck

Rick

I helped Larry and the problem is definitely mechanical. We had the started completely apart and I don't recall any type of indexing available. When we put the starter back on the same problem persisted, a lot of noise but no rotation of the engine. We removed the started again and inspected the flywheel. There were scuff marks where the starter gear was rubbing on the face of the ring gear and the ring gear didn't seem to have much lead in chamfer on the gear teeth to help the engagement. We rotated the flywheel a few degrees and re installed the starter. Like magic, the gears engaged and it started right up, both then and a few times later.
I don't think the problem is the starter unless it was manufactured with miss-located mounting features. If it could be indexed away from the flywheel, that might fix the problem but the parts are self aligning. I can't see the back side of the ring gear to tell if it was welded on backwards. I think that is a possibility. If anyone has a engine out where both sides of the ring gear can be seen, perhaps a picture would help diagnose the cause. Any other ideas are certainly welcome.

[Railroad]

From your description it sounds like too much run-out on the flywheel gear teeth. Any chance the engine can be slowly rotated with some run-out measurement instrument on the flywheel? Although probably less likely than flywheel run-out, can you check for a bent starter shaft or gear run-out. A lot easier to do and might eliminate what is necessary to solve the problem.

You probably know this, but I have better luck with the plugs removed, when rotating the crank.

[wareaglescott]

What would be the negative of allowing them to send the replacement starter and seeing if you get the same results?
Can't hurt right even if you believe the starter not to be the cause.

Also I am curious if you will be able to get the transmission out of the car without pulling the motor. Please advise how that goes.
Good luck getting this sorted out.

[AC Bill]

Maybe some info you can gleam from this..

http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/900_ClockingInst.pdf

http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/098__Mastertorque_Ford_starter.pdf

[Dave Howard]

I agree with the wareagle. Have them send the other starter. To me, it sounds like the little drive gear on the starter isn't messing properly at times depending on the position of the flywheel when the engine stops. Or, does the starter advance the drive gear forward enough for full contact with the flywheel gear.... or does it advance too far and it overshoots the flywheel gear? Could they have sent you a starter for a different engine/flywheel combo???

[2bking]

Maybe some info you can gleam from this..

http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/900_ClockingInst.pdf

http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/098__Mastertorque_Ford_starter.pdf

Thanks for the research and info. This starter doesn't have the adjustment shown in the link but would/might fix the problem if it had. It's mounted directly to the Quick Time bell housing which may be part of the problem.


What would be the negative of allowing them to send the replacement starter and seeing if you get the same results?
Can't hurt right even if you believe the starter not to be the cause.

Also I am curious if you will be able to get the transmission out of the car without pulling the motor. Please advise how that goes.
Good luck getting this sorted out.

I think "replacing the starter" is going to happen but am looking for collective experience from the forum. There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the started when it engages the flywheel ring gear. The problem seems to be getting the gears to engage. Keep sending ideas.

As far as removal of the transmission, this roadster is configured much like mine in the drive train. It take me about 30 minutes to get my transmission out but access to the mid-shift mount is a must. Larry's and mine both have removable tunnel covers which allows that access for removal of the mid-shift turret. While I was solving the vibration issue with mine, I had my transmission out four or five times.

[Jacob McCrea]

I recall that years ago, some SBF Quicktime bellhousings had the hole for the starter cut poorly, and users had to use a factory Ford separator plate (or whatever they are called) as a template to (1) see exactly how the hole should have been cut; and (2) grind the hole to match the factory part. Hopefully you solve the problem before it gets to this point, but if you have the transmission out I'd check the Quicktime against a factory separator plate.

[Ducky2009]

.......The Tremec 600 I bought from Roush has a slight leak on the top where the mid shifter (they installed) is mounted.
They appear to be ready to pay for that repair, once I pull the tranny and take it to their guy in Ft Worth. If I have to pull the tranny, it is obviously a good time to check the flywheel for whatever might be wrong. i.e. gear ring backwards or whatever.

Any ideas? Thanks in advance.

I had a leak on my TKO where the tail shaft meets the front case. With the trans in the car, I unbolted and shifted the tail shaft and applied the recommended sealant. Look at my post #193

Also, When I tried to install my started, it wouldn't fit. The Quicktime backing plate had been plasma or laser cut and left a small burr/cusp (where they start/stop cutting). Had to grind to remove the burr. I did measure the distance from the center of the hole in the backing plate to the flywheel and compared that to the starter, center of the locating ring on the starter to the outward starter teeth. It would have been a tight fit. I ground more on the outward side to prevent starter binding.

[Larry Johnson]

I'll order the replacement starter Roush offered first thing tomorrow.
Larry

[edwardb]

What is the reason for the Powermaster starter? Many of us have used the Ford Performance M-11000-C50 with no issues. That's the Ford recommended starter for this engine and also the one listed in the Factory Five instructions. I've done a couple, also with the QuickTime bell, and no alignment or starting problems.

The comments about the block plate on the QuickTime bell and possible alignment issues compared to the Ford OE block plate I think are dated. That was a problem a while back, but has long since been resolved. Unless it's a really old stock bell (unlikely...) then I doubt that's an issue.