Ram clutch pedal force?

[initiator]

I bought the Ram clutch kit from Mike Forte for my Coyote. When the engine was in the car and using the FFR-supplied clutch cable, I didn't feel like it was disengaging - just pushed harder and harder effort without a 'release' like I'm used to on a clutch. Felt like I was close to stretching the cable. I've since gotten the replacement Ford cable, but won't be able to see if it makes a difference until the engine is reinstalled.

Does the replacement cable significantly reduce pedal force? I've read that it's smoother, but nothing about reduced effort.

Anyone have a good idea of how much force I should expect? I've got pretty strong legs, but this just didn't feel right.

[edwardb]

Something just doesn't sound right. I think it's reasonable to expect the Ford Performance branded cable to work better than the generic one. Many have reported they are smoother, stretch less, etc. But unless the cable you have is defective, not sure you're going to get a night and day difference. I'm assuming you have the Wilwood pedal box with the FF conversion to cable on the clutch pedal? You have the later version that pulls from the center line of the clutch pedal vs. the previous version that pulled from the side and had some issues? Positive nothing's hanging up in the pedal setup, firewall exit, cable routing, etc.?

A little late, but I wonder why Forte is provided the Ram clutch in their Coyote package? Cost maybe? Both FF and Ford Performance recommend the Ford Performance M-7560-T46 clutch. It's a very nice quality dual friction Centerforce part. That's what I have in mine. I wouldn't call the effort "light" but it's definitely very manageable. Just did about a 1-1/2 hour drive in stop and go rush hour traffic today. Wasn't planning on it. Just happened based on time of day and road construction. Did have to drop it into neutral a couple times to rest. But for the most part, it was OK. Full disclosure I also have hydraulic. My experience is the effort might be a little less. But I've had both and can't say I've noticed a big difference between it and a properly installed and working cable setup.

[Bob Cowan]

The Ford cable will reduce your pedal effort by a little bit. It's not a huge amount, but it is some.

I would also soak the cable in so motorcycle chain and cable lube. I would do that about once a year, and I could certainly feel the difference.

[initiator]

Thank you both for the feedback - greatly appreciated. I suspect this is going to turn into a 'noob story' by the time I'm done, as this is my first time assembling a clutch. Maybe found some novel way to assemble it that prevents proper operation.

Paul - I do have the Wilwood pedal box with the recent cable adapter. The cable is aligned with the cable groove and the cable end passes cleanly through the pedal box hole.

Talked to Mike just now - he walked me through several possible issues but none of them sound like the answer. I'm going to pull it apart and document each step of the assembly with pictures so hopefully someone can spot my issue.

Related question - one of my bell housing-to-engine bolts was getting fairly tight on installation (not quite seizing, but far from free running), another reason I'm reluctant to blow it apart again. Before I re-assemble, should I run a tap into the engine bolt hole to clean it up or is that asking for trouble? I know helicoil is an option, hopefully don't have do go that far. Is there an intermediate step?

[Jacob McCrea]

"Before I re-assemble, should I run a tap into the engine bolt hole to clean it up or is that asking for trouble? I know helicoil is an option, hopefully don't have do go that far. Is there an intermediate step?"

Yes, a "thread chaser" or "thread restorer" kit is what you want to try. It's one of the most useful tools you can buy for under $100.00, and has paid for itself time and again.

[NAZ]

The actual effort is more dependent on the mechanical advantage of the clutch release mechanism. A cable or linkage that binds can add to the effort and a significant bind in any of the moving parts can add lots of pressure to the release. And you do know that the disc(s) only go one way so they don't cause an interference -- right?

If in your efforts to track down the cause of the hard pedal pressure make you decide to split the bell housing I'll ask this question. Did you align the bell housing? Some can be way out of spec, especially if the engine has been line bored. No that should not cause a clutch actuation issue but can cause an issue with hard shifting and premature wear of the trans. And that could be your next problem to solve. So I mention this in case you do pull the engine and separate the bell housing. That would be the time to check concentricity if you haven't done so already.

[GSides9]

My Ram clutch came from Mike too. Cable actuated just like yours. He sent a Ford bellhousing with mine. It has plenty of bite, works smooth and doesn't require much effort. Try to keep the cable away from the exhaust heat, I can feel some binding starting after about 700 miles. I can see where the heat was getting to the sheathing on the cable. It really sounds like something isn't assembled right.

[Matt K.]

I bought the Ram clutch kit from Mike Forte for my Coyote. When the engine was in the car and using the FFR-supplied clutch cable, I didn't feel like it was disengaging - just pushed harder and harder effort without a 'release' like I'm used to on a clutch. Felt like I was close to stretching the cable. I've since gotten the replacement Ford cable, but won't be able to see if it makes a difference until the engine is reinstalled.

Does the replacement cable significantly reduce pedal force? I've read that it's smoother, but nothing about reduced effort.

Anyone have a good idea of how much force I should expect? I've got pretty strong legs, but this just didn't feel right.

I would remove the transmission and look at things. I don't know diddly squat about the Coyote engine/clutch arrangement. I managed to get the throwout bearing fork and the throwout bearing mis-assembled years ago when replacing the clutch and transmission on my 5.0 Mustang. The clutch would work, but was it very stiff and didn't want to fully disengage.

[edwardb]

If in your efforts to track down the cause of the hard pedal pressure make you decide to split the bell housing I'll ask this question. Did you align the bell housing? Some can be way out of spec, especially if the engine has been line bored. No that should not cause a clutch actuation issue but can cause an issue with hard shifting and premature wear of the trans. And that could be your next problem to solve. So I mention this in case you do pull the engine and separate the bell housing. That would be the time to check concentricity if you haven't done so already.

The OP is doing a Coyote build. A new (as I understand) crate Coyote. This has come up before. The Coyote has two hollow alignment sleeves for the block to bell housing with mounting bolts inside. There's no physical way to adjust with offset dowels as other engines can. Of course the concentricity can be measured. But if out of spec, not sure what the solution would be other than to try another bell housing. I've measured my previous SBF builds and fortunately they were in spec. While subject to debate, I didn't bother to measure the Coyote/QuickTime combination with my #8674 build. I suspect many Coyote builders aren't either.


I would remove the transmission and look at things. I don't know diddly squat about the Coyote engine/clutch arrangement. I managed to get the throwout bearing fork and the throwout bearing mis-assembled years ago when replacing the clutch and transmission on my 5.0 Mustang. The clutch would work, but was it very stiff and didn't want to fully disengage.

After thinking about it a little, that's my vote as well. I suspect the throw-out bearing is installed improperly. It's a common mistake.

[NAZ]

I suspect you're right that many, maybe even most hobbyist don't check bellhousing concentricity regardless of the engine. Having worked as a Ford mechanic I know that even the professionals usually skip this as often the flat rate doesn't cover the time to make this check and good luck finding offset dowels in the dealership parts department. But all engines are manufactured to a set of +/- tolerances and while using a new engine and new bellhousing without checking concentricity may net you acceptable results that is no guarantee.

Not checking is a shortcut and shortcuts can often bite you. For future reference: Quicktime makes offset dowels to fit the Coyote and Summit Racing is a Quicktime dealer so if you need some I'd check with them or purchase straight from Holley (the parent company for Quicktime). So roll the dice and take the shortcut or do the job correctly -- you're choice. I only mention this because some hobbyists don't even know that checking and adjusting bellhousing concentricity is the correct way to assemble these items. And the trans manufactures have established a spec for the TIR for good reason.

[edwardb]

I suspect you're right that many, maybe even most hobbyist don't check bellhousing concentricity regardless of the engine. Having worked as a Ford mechanic I know that even the professionals usually skip this as often the flat rate doesn't cover the time to make this check and good luck finding offset dowels in the dealership parts department. But all engines are manufactured to a set of +/- tolerances and while using a new engine and new bellhousing without checking concentricity may net you acceptable results that is no guarantee.

Not checking is a shortcut and shortcuts can often bite you. For future reference: Quicktime makes offset dowels to fit the Coyote and Summit Racing is a Quicktime dealer so if you need some I'd check with them or purchase straight from Holley (the parent company for Quicktime). So roll the dice and take the shortcut or do the job correctly -- you're choice. I only mention this because some hobbyists don't even know that checking and adjusting bellhousing concentricity is the correct way to assemble these items. And the trans manufactures have established a spec for the TIR for good reason.

I'm confused about using offset dowels on the Coyote. First, I'm not the only one that's said they aren't readily adjustable. I've seen/read/heard that from multiple sources since I've been messing around with them. Again, because of the hollow locating sleeves and the mounting bolts that go through the center. Different from other engines where the locating dowels are solid and separate from the mounting bolts.

Looking at Summit and Holley's websites, the only thing listed is an RM-140. Does show for a Coyote, and are the right OD (.628) but they're solid. So that means the mounting bolts intended for those holes are no longer used? There are seven primary bolts holding the bell housing to the Coyote block. So now it would be reduced to five?

I agree it's good practice to check. Pretty good chance it will be in spec. But if it isn't, in this case (e.g. Coyote) I'm still back to probably having to try other parts. I don't see how it's OK to leave primary (and critical) block to bell housing mounting bolts out. That's not a trade-off I'm willing to make.

[NAZ]

Yes, the photo shows these are solid but the catalog photos are not always representative of the actual part. A quick check with Summit and the Customer Service representative confirmed these are hollow and indeed fit the Coyote. So you may have more options than you realized for your next build.

[edwardb]

Yes, the photo shows these are solid but the catalog photos are not always representative of the actual part. A quick check with Summit and the Customer Service representative confirmed these are hollow and indeed fit the Coyote. So you may have more options than you realized for your next build.

There are three offsets available from QuickTime for Ford Mod Engines .628 dia. RM-140, RM-141, RM-142. Each with different offset values. Every single picture of these on-line (there are dozens, not just Summit) show them as solid. Found a thread on another forum where a TR-3650 was being installed on a mod motor with a QuickTime bell and didn't measure in spec. Turned into a long discussion about the QuickTime solid offsets, advisability to leave the two bolts out and use the solid offsets, and then turned into a discussion about having hollow offsets custom made. Short of someone from Summit (or elsewhere) actually going into the warehouse and looking at the parts, pretty confident they're solid. Maybe they did. But I'm out. I'll be a good boy and measure next time and if necessary do more research. :o

[mike forte]

Hi,
I hate to try a sales pitch but the clutch pedal effort reducer works really well and simple to install. Might be a good remedy before disassembly?

[initiator]

Got it figured out last night, problem was a combination of the not-great FF-provided cable and my not adjusting the cable end to the clutch fork properly.

I hoisted the engine next to the pedal box so I could connect the clutch cable as if the engine were sitting in the car. Had my boy watch the fork as I stroked the pedal. First, the Ford replacement cable made a significant difference to me - didn't get that weird feeling like the cable was starting to stretch. Second, the boy pointed out that the fork only really started to move as I was running out of pedal stroke. What I took as cable stretch was actually the clutch fingers starting to move. That feeling was much more recognizable through the new cable.

I ran the clutch fork adjustment nuts down further on the cable and tried again. This time it all worked properly and I could feel the fingers release. Even had the boy twist the driveshaft with the transmission in gear to make sure it had fully released. Success!

I had attached the cable to the outermost hole on the clutch fork (for least pedal effort) and there's some misalignment as the fork moves forward/outward and the distance between fixed mounts gets short. I can see that the nice Teflon end on the new cable cuts down on the friction much better than the previous cable. It should help alignment to move the cable to the next inboard hole in the fork, although that will increase the pedal load.

Greatly appreciate so many folks having my back on this - clutch and transmission are the two areas of the car where I have zero previous experience. With all the suggestions and guidance I was able to work it out. Thanks!

@NAZ - I'm willing to pull the transmission to check bell housing runout, but need some help finding the right mag base. I attempted to do this on first assembly, but my mag base and arm just wouldn't get the dial indicator in the right position. I'm using the Aluminum Tremec bell housing, which has finish machined transmission locate features, along with the Gen-2 crate Coyote, also precision machined. Not finding threads of folks bemoaning their TKO input shaft bearing failures, I assumed the odds were in my favor so I took the 'shortcut'.

This is the mag base I bought. Can you recommend a better one that (hopefully) doesn't break the bank?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01JU18A0Q/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[NAZ]

Universal Flexible Magnetic Metal Base Holder Stand Dial Test Indicator Tool (https://www.amazon.com/Universal-Flexible-Magnetic-Holder-Indicator/dp/B01A9JRHH0/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_469_lp_t_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=9HAD63KKKSF8G46XN6RS). See if this Amazon link works. It helps to use a flex type mag base and at ~$30 this one won't brake the bank. Not sure how good the quality is -- being a machinist I spring for the more expensive stuff as I use them a lot but I can see how that's not a practical solution for occasional use.

Good luck, looks like you got things figured out.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Hi,
I hate to try a sales pitch but the clutch pedal effort reducer works really well and simple to install. Might be a good remedy before disassembly?

+1 Had one in the draw for two years. Elected to put it in during the annual check everything & change fluids. Was supplied how much the pedal effort was reduced, good product. Running the Center-force Clutch.