The competition (when dodging cones)

[thebeerbaron]

My limited reading of recent SCCA Solo rule books suggests (to me) that the 818 could eventually be classed in E-Modified for Solo (autocross) competition.

A friend just shared this video of a recent run by a multi-National Champion E-Mod driver and his Sprite.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyemPbdVDPc

That would be the competition (if the 818 was approved for the class). I don't have the skills. Anyone planning on taking the 818 to Nationals?

Owner states "making around 340 to the wheels and weighs 1810 with driver"

Zoinks!

[Flamshackle]

Sick!

[forced4]

That's a ProSolo video but similar to autox. The 818 would need to lose weight to be competitive in E-Mod.

[thebeerbaron]

That's a ProSolo video but similar to autox. The 818 would need to lose weight to be competitive in E-Mod.

Ha! Yes, I forget that people draw a distinction between the two. I've done one Pro in my time, it was fun but just a slightly "different" autocross.

I didn't take notes, but I don't think the 818 will be very far off from the class minimums (including penalties for various design elements) if it really hits 1800lbs.

[D2W]

That bug-eye is scary fast and sounds great! It would be a blast to drive, I can't wait for the 818.

[Mike N]

Jeff Keisel is an alien, no one can drive that fast ;) Besides that he is a great race car builder. I don't think anyone has got within a second of him at any regional or national event in at least a year or two and he just keeps getting faster.

[thebeerbaron]

I thought the alien was someone else whose name escapes me...(Mark Daddio) I have to start paying attention when my seriously-autocrossing friends blather on...

[thebeerbaron]

Anyone else sat there and just watched the G meters? I just caught a frame at 1.16G acceleration and I've seen 1.69G lateral. Probably not the most accurate meters in the world, but wow.

[D2W]

Anyone else sat there and just watched the G meters? I just caught a frame at 1.16G acceleration and I've seen 1.69G lateral. Probably not the most accurate meters in the world, but wow.

Yeah I'm a geek too:) I think it's also amazing that you can tell even from the video that he is at the edge of adhesion most of the time. Crazy fun!

[Dallas J]

Id love to see the 818 in XP with the cobra. I mean it basically is built right along the same rule set as anything else and could meet all the rule and weight restriction easier than the cobra.

I just dont see it competing in EM for 1st, maybe going for a trophy but if you want that National Champion jacket you got a huge hill to climb to topple Jeff and the Keisel mobile.

[Mike N]

May be FFR should give Keisel a deal on an 818? Now wouldn't that be great advertising??????

[thebeerbaron]

Ok, I didn't realize XP would be a good fit for the 818. I thought the Roadster got in the class by being a "modified" production car (since the "original" was a production car... I guess). I had to look at the XP rules specifically to see that it, the Noble, and others like it are specifically included. Haven't examined the rules enough to know how it will fit, will have to do so.

[Dallas J]

Right, I think for these various kit only cars SCCA has to do a special inclusion for them. I have my fingers crossed that SEB looks at it and without hesitation says its an XP. Thats what my decision is hinged on for building one.

While I dont think it could touch the sprite, I think it could pose a threat to the crazy 1800lb 375hp lotus in XP

[thebeerbaron]

Right, I think for these various kit only cars SCCA has to do a special inclusion for them. I have my fingers crossed that SEB looks at it and without hesitation says its an XP. Thats what my decision is hinged on for building one.

While I dont think it could touch the sprite, I think it could pose a threat to the crazy 1800lb 375hp lotus in XP

Yes, the SEB would have to make special inclusions into both XP and EM or be coerced into putting it somewhere else. When I was actively participating a few years ago (DC Region), I don't think I ever saw a competitive XP car, though now that I think about it, I may have seen a very trick EM Lotus a few times...

I don't now how the SEB decides whether a car like the 818 is appropriate for a class or not: do they watch it run locally and then use that to decide, or do they just look at the paper figures, class it, and listen to input from participants to decide if it was classed correctly?

Definitely planning to bring my 818 down to visit my DC friends and letting it be the bicycle for a couple of events to get it sorted and get good input. I know a few have already claimed dibs on seat time.

[crobin4]

It could go in XP ,but my gut tells me that it's potential will land it in EM. And we's gonna need lotsa tire fur dat.

[Jeff Kleiner]

XP:
1,200# + 200#/liter + 80#/liter for turbocharged engines + 20#/liter for engine behind the driver= minimum weight of 1,970 pounds for a 2.5 liter turbocharged mid-engine car.

EM:
Minimum weight of 1,700 pounds.

[kach22i]

Radical SR3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_Sportscars

Seen some used ones on-line for about 30K.

I know nothing about car racing classes, just posting it for others to comment on.

[thebeerbaron]

XP:
1,200# + 200#/liter + 80#/liter for turbocharged engines + 20#/liter for engine behind the driver= minimum weight of 1,970 pounds for a 2.5 liter turbocharged mid-engine car.

EM:
Minimum weight of 1,700 pounds.

Jeff - does Solo measure the car with or without the driver? I can't remember and don't have the rules in front of me here at work.

Assuming your formula is correct:
XP:
1,200# + 200#/liter + 80#/liter for turbocharged engines + 20#/liter for engine behind the driver = minimum weight of 1,800 pounds for a 2.0 liter turbocharged mid-engine car.

1,200# + 200#/liter + 20#/liter for engine behind the driver = minimum weight of 1,750 pounds for a normally-aspirated 2.5 liter mid-engine car.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Jeff - does Solo measure the car with or without the driver?

Well, that is an example of how SCCA rules are consistently inconsistent---Prepared categories minimum weights are without the driver and Modified classes are with the driver.

In reality the 818 could not just fall into XP at this time. The Prepared category is intended for heavily modified production based vehicles and ones which have been approved for a specific class such as is the case with FFRs, SPFs, Nobles, Moslers and the like being slotted into XP. Even if the 818 were allowed to run XP it would be at a significant weight penalty vs. running in E Mod, although EM is generally a faster class.

Jeff

[thebeerbaron]

1700lbs including driver then for the target class. Ouch. I fear that getting the 818 down there will be a tall order. I'm 160 with a helmet on. Lose 260 lbs off the best-case scenario for the stock car will not be easy.

Are you suggesting that if it is classed in XP it is likely to be given a weight penalty above and beyond those numbers we figured above?

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Are you suggesting that if it is classed in XP it is likely to be given a weight penalty above and beyond those numbers we figured above?

No, that is simply the minimum weight formula for all cars in the class. In the case of a forced induction 2.5 liter 818 it would have to weigh in at 1,970 without the driver under the current XP rules.

Jeff

[thebeerbaron]

OK, I thought you were suggesting that it would be a class-killer unless an extra weight penalty was added specifically for the 818.

Anyhow, I understand.

In DC at least, XP was "Cobra Class" and not particularly interesting to watch. Maybe EM will eventually become "818 Class"? It'll be awfully hard competition at large/national events and a tough PAX score for all but the most serious folks, but them's the breaks.

I wish I could recall the quote, or who said it (Maybe Hollis?) - something like:

You're entitled to be given a class for your car, you are not entitled to have your car be competitive in the class you are given.

It will be very interesting to see what happens with the 818.

[crobin4]

XP:
1,200# + 200#/liter + 80#/liter for turbocharged engines + 20#/liter for engine behind the driver= minimum weight of 1,970 pounds for a 2.5 liter turbocharged mid-engine car.

EM:
Minimum weight of 1,700 pounds.

Thanks Jeff, made go back and look at the rules again.

Minimum weight for 818 in EM will be 1800 lbs. with driver. 1700+50 (modified tub)+50 (greater than 51% rear weight).

Definitely achievable. Keisels sprite has two disadvantages to the 818: torque and solid rear axle

I think a well setup 818 with a nice engine build (400+ HP/TQ), some suspension work(geometry/dampening/spring rates/spherical bearing), proper tires(10"wide FRT and 14" wide RR), and competent driver will be very competitive in EM.
I think this gonna be fun!

[thebeerbaron]

...and competent driver will be very competitive in EM.

I was with you right until that. Don't got it, probably never will. Won't keep me from trying and looking like a fool though! :)

[crobin4]

I was with you right until that. Don't got it, probably never will. Won't keep me from trying and looking like a fool though! :)

+1 and I'm used to looking like a fool. At least on the surface.;)

[Gollum]

This whole thread speaks to a paradox confronting most future 818 builders. The 818 will be "affordable" by many standards, but won't exactly be cheap to race competitively. Unless special provisions are made in XP you'll end up in EM which will be a bit rich for people "on a budget".

Realistically, if you're looking to get into cheap competitive racing, the 818 isn't a great option. You're far better getting into SCCA racing in a Miata, MR2, or even a Fiero. Heck, even fox bodied mustangs aren't a terrible choice for getting your feet wet. Those are the true "cheap" options.

The 818 will be an "affordable" car when you consider it's a street registered monster in which most EM class SCCA cars aren't exactly "street legal". The 818 will have a "package appeal" that will really draw buyers from new market segments. I really do think this kit is very important in that regard, as I don't think anyone will have a product quite like it. Many people are interested in kit cars like nobles, x-bows, etc but don't bite either for cost or skill required for completion. Knowing FFR it'll be a cake build by comparison to some manufactures, and will give you a quality product in the end. And it won't break the bank like many of the other kit cars people dream about building.

Unfortunately, I don't see to many of these actually getting competitive track time. I probably won't even race competitively either, but I'll make sure it gets a good amount of track use.

[Oppenheimer]

Minimum weight for 818 in EM will be 1800 lbs. with driver. 1700+50 (modified tub)+50 (greater than 51% rear weight).

Seems an unlikely coincidence that is the exact weight target Dave happened to choose. Was is target influenced by these rules?