Is that a Water puddle on the rocker arm? Sigh.

[DadofThree]

Oh boy

Last night I decided to re-torque the head bolts to be sure everything is still together as it should be. I rebuilt the top end of this 302 and installed new gaskets after getting off all old gasket material. We've gone through several heat cycles, so I thought it may be time. My helper and I stepped up the torques on the PS 50 ftlbs, 60 ftlbs, then 70 ftlbs. She did great, everything was tight and I didn't notice any problems.

Insert proud daddy photo here....
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4795/40797991422_36886ce477_z.jpg


Here's what my PS rocker arms looked like

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/787/40131401874_014bd86a20_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/249gVBY)20180315_195549 (https://flic.kr/p/249gVBY) by D. R. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/annabellerose/), on Flickr


Then we went to the DS, and she got the fun task of taking off the valve cover bolts and hitting the side of the cover with the rubber mallet. (I'm

Here's what the DS rocker arms looked like

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/812/40797866582_93cf21d2ee_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/25aaJmN)20180315_204236 (https://flic.kr/p/25aaJmN) by D. R. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/annabellerose/), on Flickr


My heart sank just a little

I went ahead and re-torqued the head bolts on the DS to see if there were any that moved, and all seemed tight. I drained the oil, but I couldn't tell in the light of the garage if the oil was milky or had a sheen to it. I don't know what I'm really looking for with that anyway.

So now I'm not sure about:

1) Is there water in the oil
2) Is my head gasket okay (months ago I did a pressure test on the cooling system and it held pressure until one of the freeze plugs started to leak, so I was convinced that the head gasket was good. Not I'm not)
3) Do I have a crack in one of the heads?



*** Video of the rocker arms: *** (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3iWMeAnGkM)


Photos from the build:
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/720/32896412922_4308a8a2dc_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/S7WHt9)20170221_233943 (https://flic.kr/p/S7WHt9) by D. R. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/annabellerose/), on Flickr

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/604/33052754255_9020471028_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/SmL1in)20170221_222110 (https://flic.kr/p/SmL1in) by D. R. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/annabellerose/), on Flickr

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2544/32237257363_1851650243_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/R7Gnu8)20170221_223927 (https://flic.kr/p/R7Gnu8) by D. R. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/annabellerose/), on Flickr

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2544/32207382824_051619dcec_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/R54fPS)20170221_224301 (https://flic.kr/p/R54fPS) by D. R. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/annabellerose/), on Flickr

[DadofThree]

Additional photos: The others can be found at my Ford 302 album (https://www.flickr.com/photos/annabellerose/albums/72157679703763886/with/32207250264/)

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3688/33010802006_e380c415dc_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Si3ZmJ)20170221_224309 (https://flic.kr/p/Si3ZmJ) by D. R. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/annabellerose/), on Flickr

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2390/33052560225_d644cd137b_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/SmK1C2)20170221_224906 (https://flic.kr/p/SmK1C2) by D. R. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/annabellerose/), on Flickr

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/283/32207250264_b1830113db_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/R53zqm)20170221_225122 (https://flic.kr/p/R53zqm) by D. R. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/annabellerose/), on Flickr

[cgundermann]

I had initially focused in on the DS pic and thought that you had water in your oil. When comparing it to the PS photo, it sure appears so...sorry!

When you drained your oil, you couldn't really tell if you had water in it?

Chris

[mike223]

It looks "dirty" to me - but not much like water in the oil (or not much water in the oil)


Even if there was some water in there (a little), you can easily induce that with short run times.

Ideally, an engine should always be run until the oil is fully warmed up - it is helpful if the oil temperature reaches 200F to (positively) cause the moisture to evaporate out (and keep it out).


Once the moisture evaporates, it needs a place to go - otherwise it is likely to condense in the valve cover area (PCV circuit evacuates it).


Oil temperature is mostly a function of load - and these cars (especially in the go cart stage) are notorious for not getting the oil warm.


Because you can't get a load on the engine without driving it like a race car...



Only a couple of options - put clean oil back in it + watch it carefully.

Or tear it down.

[Gromit]

Engine oil analysis, (google it) there are test labs that will take an oil sample and tell you what is in there. you need to be careful to take a clean sample. I use a thin tube down the dip stick before I drain the oil into a dirty pan. Given the oil was not that milky white I'd say refill it and carefully run it for a bit, watch it and pull a sample. personally I'd rather spend the $ for fresh oil and $ 30 on a test rather than pull apart an engine on something that I can't confirm by just looking at it. also given that the oil circulates through the whole motor the oil on one side should look like the other. you may just be looking at a Breather / PCV problem where the water condensed in the Valve cover on that side.

good luck and I hope its something simple.
Chris AKA Gromit

[NAZ]

Do an oil "crackle test" to determine if there is water in the oil. Google oil crackle test or search YouTube -- everything is on YouTube now days.

It's an easy test where you use a cheap hot plate set to above 212-deg but below the temp that the oil will boil. Drip some drops of oil on the hot plate and if there is any harmful amount of water in the oil it will crackle as the water turns to steam. The test shows the presence of water but does not quantify the concentration. You get instant results unlike sending a sample to the lab. And it's a cheap test that can be done at home. If no crackle you have no water in the oil. And even if you got test results back that gave you the exact concentration what would you do with that data? You just want to know if you have water in your oil and what to do about it right?

[michael everson]

I don't think its water. Looks like dirty oil to me. If you had that much water in your rockers, the oil pan would be full of it. Drain and refill then keep an eye on it. If your oil level starts going up then you have a problem.
Mike

[Joee]

I think you are ok. I have gone through more blown head gaskets than normal. Water/coolant in oil makes it look like coffee with a good shot of creamer. It would also be all over the rockers and springs as well as your dipstick For now get yourself the rubber valve cover gaskets, they make it real easy to remove the covers, and just monitor the looks of things. If you can go out and run it hard, get the temps oil and coolant up to 200+, then take a look at valve train.

[DadofThree]

This is all good news so far. I've posted another video to show both sides a little better.

https://youtu.be/s3iWMeAnGkM

[mike223]

Watched the second video twice.

That's exactly what the oil is going to look like in a partially rebuilt motor (top end) when you're fighting overheating issues (and therefore not running it long enough to get the oil warm).

It won't hurt to drain the oil and look at it (the rest of it is going to look the same).


Get (all) the air out of the top of the intake + radiator and your problems are probably solved.


Have you got an electric fan ready to run on the radiator?

What turns it on? - I couldn't tell from the video.

[DadofThree]

Watched the second video twice.

That's exactly what the oil is going to look like in a partially rebuilt motor (top end) when you're fighting overheating issues (and therefore not running it long enough to get the oil warm).

It won't hurt to drain the oil and look at it (the rest of it is going to look the same).


Get (all) the air out of the top of the intake + radiator and your problems are probably solved.


Have you got an electric fan ready to run on the radiator?

What turns it on? - I couldn't tell from the video.

Thanks. Yes, The electric fan is hooked up and kicks in at 178* by control of the Fitech EFI unit.

[mike223]

Thanks. Yes, The electric fan is hooked up and kicks in at 178* by control of the Fitech EFI unit.




1st- Try to get all the air out of the system.

2nd- Check the temperature of the lower radiator hose when the fan comes on / boiling over into catch can.


If you ever catch the lower radiator hose "too hot to touch" you need the fan on earlier / or more airflow.

You also need to pay attention to when the thermostat opens (which is when the upper radiator hose will become too hot to touch).


When I say "too hot to touch", I mean too hot to hold on to with your bare hand (about 140F + for most).

[Jim Doak]

Do the head bolts under the valve covers go into the water jacket? If so did you use sealant on them?

[DadofThree]

Do the head bolts under the valve covers go into the water jacket? If so did you use sealant on them?

I don't think so. I only put the sealant on the bolts that were outside the valve cover. The short bolts got the thread sealant, and the long bolts got the fastener lubricant.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/604/33052754255_9020471028_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/SmL1in)20170221_222110 (https://flic.kr/p/SmL1in) by D. R. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/annabellerose/), on Flickr

[AC Bill]

Water/coolant in oil makes it look like coffee with a good shot of creamer. It would also be all over the rockers and springs as well as your dipstick

I agree. None of the telltale milkiness that coolant mixed with oil looks like.

[Avalanche325]

I looks dirty / moisture content like most people are saying. Change it and keep a good eye on it. Like Michael E said, if you have that much water, you will see it when you drain it.

Not to pick on your wonderful helper. More like picking on the instructor. And maybe it is a staged shot. You should never hold a torque wrench like that. You can end up short on torque. Not to mention that you can easily slip and round off a head bolt. Your right hand should be on the handle centered on the grip area. Your left palm should be on the head of the wrench, pushing in the opposite direction applying counter torque. That way all of the torque that is being measured is in the correct axis, twisting the bolt. When just pulling on the handle, some of the torque is trying to rip the head of the bolt off sideways (think opening a beer can), but it still gets measured. I would hit them again, holding the wrench correctly.

[DadofThree]

checked the drained oil when I got home. I don't see any water.
Do you?

https://youtu.be/PRD3EQNMXhM

[cgundermann]

checked the drained oil when I got home. I don't see any water.
Do you?

https://youtu.be/PRD3EQNMXhM

Much better; good to go...

[Joee]

This is what oil with coolant/water in it looks like
http://www.6gc.net/forums/lofiversion/index.php?t92110.html

[PeteH]

I just went thru this same excersize. I saw condensation on the oil cap, and feared there was a problem. Drained oil, and no water present. Thinking about the times I had run it, one stands out, I had run it to put it on a trailer, in the pouring rain. The air filter was soaked, and it had to have sucked in moisture that day. There were several starts and runs that did not make it to full operating temps.
Changed the break in oil and filter. Cut old filter open and there was not a trace of water, nor any evidence of water in the drain oil.
Keep an eye on it, but you may not have a serious problem.



..

[steno]

I thought it looked like oil mixed with assembly lube that hadn’t worked out yet. IMO I’d change the oil, get it good and hot, and keep an eye on it! Good luck my friend!

[j.miller]

Water in the oil....the fact that you had to ask is a very good sign. I say that because, WHEN YOU GET WATER IN THE OIL IT'S LIKE "OH MY GOD....I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS IS HAPPENING"......kinda like walking across the desert and you hear all kinds of things that buzz and hum and you wonder "is that a rattle snake".....then you hear one for real and it's "RUN FOR YOUR LIFE! IT'S AN F-ING RATTLE SNAKE" ...no mistaking...da Bat

[Jeff Kleiner]

Only Miller could take us from questioning whether there is water in the oil to running from rattlesnakes.

Jeff

[mike223]

Thinking about the times I had run it, one stands out, I had run it to put it on a trailer, in the pouring rain. The air filter was soaked, and it had to have sucked in moisture that day. There were several starts and runs that did not make it to full operating temps.



For anyone who has trouble picturing why it happens - try this:


How much water do you have to drain out of your air compressor tank? Why?

How much more air are you moving through the engine (+ gallons of fuel).


Most of it goes out the exhaust, but a percentage blows by the rings into the crankcase.


The oil is guaranteed to be the coldest thing in the motor until you've been 30 minutes running down the interstate at speed (or driving it like you stole it for 15-20 minutes).

Any condensable vapor (water, humidity or byproducts/leftovers from combustion) is going to condense in the oil.


Your oil doesn't generally get dirty from engine wear - it gets dirty from the stuff that condenses and mixes with it...

[steno]

Only Miller could take us from questioning whether there is water in the oil to running from rattlesnakes.

Jeff
I was just thinking... what’s in those vapors he’s inhaling!?!

[Jeff Kleiner]

I was just thinking... what’s in those vapors he’s inhaling!?!

Same as in mine...In fact I just came in to peruse the forums and to clear up for a few minutes after spending the last hour with a cocktail of Wax & Grease remover, lacquer thinner and acetone :rolleyes:

Jeff

[j.miller]

OH ! DUDE! You need to spry noe choice undercoate with the xhost fan fof.......nut a rush.....thatz sum good shiz amaigo....jus sprayd sum....imm gooood.....gdoo....godo......I be fine inna bitt....whoa ! I neeed a napp ! by buy ...ba tab

[j.miller]

Soooo, What I was sayin was when you get a little bit of water in your oil it looks like whipped milk chocolate.....NO MISTAKING ! I forgot...you don't have rattle snakes up there...in fact, if you see a lizard doing pushups on a warm summer day you think he's "calling you out".....and to boot ROADRUNNERS ARE A REAL BIRD not just a cartoon critter....and they eat lizzards. BEEP BEEP. Really!I lost you again..... I swear your as bad as my sisters kids. Try to keep up damn it !...da bat

[rich grsc]

OH ! DUDE! You need to spry noe choice undercoate with the xhost fan fof.......nut a rush.....thatz sum good shiz amaigo....jus sprayd sum....imm gooood.....gdoo....godo......I be fine inna bitt....whoa ! I neeed a napp ! by buy ...ba tab

Hey a big shot of RUM will clear that right up.

[steno]

Hey a big shot of RUM will clear that right up.

Or perhaps wine from a box?