A/C Questions...get it while it's hot

[dbo_texas]

I'm new to the forum and I've been reading tons of threads over the last few weeks, starting to gather info for a build plan. I live in Austin, TX where Summertime temps can get over 100°F and was considering putting in A/C for driving in the Summer months. It doesn't seem like this is a very popular thing to install on the Roadsters, although it sounds like plenty have done it. I did search this forum and a few others, but haven't found a ton of threads specific to A/C questions. At the end of the day, I'm considering either a 302 small block setup, or a 351W with ideally power steering and A/C - not sure if I'm going EFI or carb yet. This will be a strictly street machine (325-350HP hopefully). So, here are some items I'd like some feedback on if possible:


Can you fit both power steering pump & A/C compressor in the Roadster engine bay for both the 302 or 351W setup? What about if I add power brakes to the mix (haven't researched that yet...not sure if that will affect space in the engine compartment yet).
For those that have A/C, is it worth the added expense? Does it actually help at all?
Do you get a performance dip with A/C in terms of losing HP?
Where do you run the conduits and place the vents in the cockpit? Pictures of routing & vent locations would be great. I have seen quite a few people run ambient vents up to the air inlets on the front of the car and run that to the foot box. But what about for dedicated A/C?
What is a good pulley routing setup and compressor location in the Roadster engine bay? Seems like most setups on small blocks has the compressor at the top on the driver's side. Is this the best place for it considering I plan on having power steering as well? I did see another post in this forum about a Roush setup that has it mounted low, but sounds like it may require some custom brackets - I'm hoping for an off-the-shelf option. Thread: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?27342-A-C-compressor-mounted-and-what-kind&highlight=air+conditioning
Same question for a 351W option - would this change the recommended pulley setup and compressor location? I know the deck height is about 1" taller on the 351w compared to the 302, so wasn't sure if that affects placement of the compressor or if it would fit under the hood in the upper driver's side location.
What would be a good compressor option? That same thread in #3 suggests Sanden S7 compressor is a common choice - are there any other common options?


Any guidance/advice would be greatly appreciated to help me put together my "dream" build.
Thanks,
-Darryl

[cwrandolph]

I know that a lot of new builds are using electric power steering so you wouldn't need the PS pump if you went that route.

[dbo_texas]

I know that a lot of new builds are using electric power steering so you wouldn't need the PS pump if you went that route.

Interesting. I hadn't really seen that, but I'm super new to this so I will do some research on pros/cons of electric PS vs. hydraulic PS. Thanks for the tip!

[edwardb]

Couple of responses FWIW. 325-350HP is pretty conservative. Very mild for either a 302 or 351. If that's all you think you're ever going to want, a 302 block will hit your target pretty easily and is going to give you more room and a bit easier to work on. Parts are widely available. Many on here will recommend the 351 block, and that's a good option as well. Yes, A/C uses HP. No free lunch here. Probably somewhere in the 10 HP range. Could be more. Could be less. Depends on a number of things. Yes, engine driven A/C and PS can coexist. Power brakes don't interfere with either.

For electric power steering, important to recognize there are two types. (1) Uses an electric pump vs. an engine driven pump for the hydraulics. Eliminates the engine driven accessories, but everything else (e.g. the power steering rack) is unchanged. (2) Actual electric assist. Mounts in the steering column and via a control module and electric motor, adds power through the column itself. #1 I've personally done (http://www.fastfreddiesfabrications.com/shop/product.php?id_product=4) and it works very well. There are some reasons why it's a good idea. But it's not an inexpensive option. #2 I haven't. There are some threads about it. Options include using a Saturn setup. Also Unisteer makes one that Factory Five has for the Hot Rod but several have fit onto Roadsters. There are others in the market as well. Various opinions about the "feel" of this option. The guy who purchased my Mk3 (#5125) several years ago just added the Saturn setup to it. He likes it a lot.

[Straversi]

I met an owner at the Huntington Beach Cruise-In from Arizona, year before last. He had a 351 based 427 with heater, defroster, A/C and PS. Don't remember if he has power brakes.

He loved his heater and A/C but he also had a soft top. He said the heater/defroster and A/C were great with the top on. He didn't say they were bad with the top off, just that if he was going to use either, the top was going to be on anyway.

-Steve

[bobl]

My Cobra has all that you are asking about. Come check it out for yourself, see if you like it or not. Give me a shout any time. 512 6590706.

Bob

[dbo_texas]

My Cobra has all that you are asking about. Come check it out for yourself, see if you like it or not. Give me a shout any time. 512 6590706.

Bob

Just sent you an email.

[2bking]

I have heater/AC on a Coyote so can't comment about the 302 questions but do have some input on the usefulness of the setup here in Texas. Without the soft top the sun is brutal on the legs. With or without the top the AC makes 100+ degree days just cool enough to keep sweat off but don't expect much more in an open car. That's about all I expected and am satisfied. I would install it again on another build. My compressor is a Sanden and works fine.

[dbo_texas]

Couple of responses FWIW. 325-350HP is pretty conservative. Very mild for either a 302 or 351. If that's all you think you're ever going to want, a 302 block will hit your target pretty easily and is going to give you more room and a bit easier to work on. Parts are widely available. Many on here will recommend the 351 block, and that's a good option as well. Yes, A/C uses HP. No free lunch here. Probably somewhere in the 10 HP range. Could be more. Could be less. Depends on a number of things. Yes, engine driven A/C and PS can coexist. Power brakes don't interfere with either.

For electric power steering, important to recognize there are two types. (1) Uses an electric pump vs. an engine driven pump for the hydraulics. Eliminates the engine driven accessories, but everything else (e.g. the power steering rack) is unchanged. (2) Actual electric assist. Mounts in the steering column and via a control module and electric motor, adds power through the column itself. #1 I've personally done (http://www.fastfreddiesfabrications.com/shop/product.php?id_product=4) and it works very well. There are some reasons why it's a good idea. But it's not an inexpensive option. #2 I haven't. There are some threads about it. Options include using a Saturn setup. Also Unisteer makes one that Factory Five has for the Hot Rod but several have fit onto Roadsters. There are others in the market as well. Various opinions about the "feel" of this option. The guy who purchased my Mk3 (#5125) several years ago just added the Saturn setup to it. He likes it a lot.

If I went with the electic-hydro power brakes from Fas Freddies (or something similar), would the only other thing I need to complete the setup be the power steering option from FFR? Or does this kit contain everything needed?

[edwardb]

If I went with the electic-hydro power brakes from Fas Freddies (or something similar), would the only other thing I need to complete the setup be the power steering option from FFR? Or does this kit contain everything needed?

The Fast Freddie setup is described for power steering. Not brakes. Maybe a typo on your part. It's an alternative for the engine driven power steering pump. But you still need the power steering rack. Freddie isn't selling that. The power steering option from Factory Five is going to be an engine driven pump plus the power steering rack. So you wouldn't want to order both. My personal advice is to stick with the engine driven pump. It's well proven and much more economical. I'm quite certain for the engines you're considering, A/C and a power steering pump can coexist.

Not to confuse the issue, but one of the power brake options is hydroboost. It's a design that uses hydraulics versus the much more common vacuum diaphragm to give the power assist. In that case the hydraulic booster on the master cylinder is plumbed to the hydraulic pump, whether engine driven or electric, along with the power steering. Hope that makes sense.

[dbo_texas]

The Fast Freddie setup is described for power steering. Not brakes. Maybe a typo on your part. It's an alternative for the engine driven power steering pump. But you still need the power steering rack. Freddie isn't selling that. The power steering option from Factory Five is going to be an engine driven pump plus the power steering rack. So you wouldn't want to order both. My personal advice is to stick with the engine driven pump. It's well proven and much more economical. I'm quite certain for the engines you're considering, A/C and a power steering pump can coexist.

Not to confuse the issue, but one of the power brake options is hydroboost. It's a design that uses hydraulics versus the much more common vacuum diaphragm to give the power assist. In that case the hydraulic booster on the master cylinder is plumbed to the hydraulic pump, whether engine driven or electric, along with the power steering. Hope that makes sense.

Yeah that was a typo on my part. I had my response typed up and then accidentally closed my browser and typed a new one too quickly. On the FFR kit configuration page it says that for the power steering kit (16138) you need to provide the pump and bracket. The actual wording is "Power steering kit (requires pump and bracket)". I assumed that meant it only included the rack and that you could use the electro-hydraulic kit to drive it (or the engine driven PS pump). But I think if the engine driven pump works fine, I would go with that option if it is lower cost and works just as well. I'm not too worried about taking a small HP hit and sounds like fitting it won't be an issue.

Re: the hydoboost brakes - would the "hydraulic pump" be yet another pump on the front of the engine in addition to the power steering pump (if I go that route) or do they share the same pump? I was thinking of going with 15" wheels...not sure if the Wilwood brake upgrade works with those or only 17"/18" wheels. If I was able to do the Wilwood brake upgrade, I probably won't go for power brakes, but if not, I will consider it (and evaluate hydroboost vs. vacuum diaphragm).

[edwardb]

Yeah that was a typo on my part. I had my response typed up and then accidentally closed my browser and typed a new one too quickly. On the FFR kit configuration page it says that for the power steering kit (16138) you need to provide the pump and bracket. The actual wording is "Power steering kit (requires pump and bracket)". I assumed that meant it only included the rack and that you could use the electro-hydraulic kit to drive it (or the engine driven PS pump). But I think if the engine driven pump works fine, I would go with that option if it is lower cost and works just as well. I'm not too worried about taking a small HP hit and sounds like fitting it won't be an issue.

Re: the hydoboost brakes - would the "hydraulic pump" be yet another pump on the front of the engine in addition to the power steering pump (if I go that route) or do they share the same pump? I was thinking of going with 15" wheels...not sure if the Wilwood brake upgrade works with those or only 17"/18" wheels. If I was able to do the Wilwood brake upgrade, I probably won't go for power brakes, but if not, I will consider it (and evaluate hydroboost vs. vacuum diaphragm).

My mistake. You're right. Some power steering options from FF are just the different rack. Some include the rack plus the engine driven pump, like for the Coyote which is pretty specific. Hydroboost uses the same pump as the power steering. Just additional plumbing.