Raising body for a rake

[TDSapp]

So I like the looks of the 33 Hot Rod with a good rake and large tires. I don't have stage 2 yet so I can't test fit the body or anything but I was wondering... Can spacers be used to raise the back of the body up a couple inches to give it the look of a rake without changing the suspension or pinion angle? If it can be raised how much would you think it could be raised without showing the frame under it?

[Arrowhead]

I raised the back of the body on mine a "pinch" say 1/2". The frame is slightly exposed, but unless you want to get on your stomach to look, it's not really noticeable. A couple of inches would really stand out plus you would have a mess trying to line up doors and front end (if your using the hood and sides)

[NAZ]

TD, the short answer is yes you can lift the body in the rear and you can even lower the front too -- just depends how much work you want to get into.

I raised the back of mine ~1" and lowered the front a similar amount and can tell you that even only an inch and you will be modifying the door hinges & latches to make the doors work. I would not be afraid to go more than that but 1" was enough for my purposes. I needed the rake to fit the rear braces on my roll cage and meet the 30-degree requirement. I also raised the rear suspension a couple of inches (and have 5" of adjustment to go more if I need to) and my rear ride height is a bit over 7" now with 28" slicks. I have room to run 30" tires if I need them and more if I remove the fenders or raise the rear a bit more.

If you're out for the old skool hot rod look with big rear tires and a goodly amount of rake you'll have to raise the rear suspension and that will take some significant fab work to keep your car handling properly. Don't try just jacking up the rear or you will end up with roll steer and create a wacky instant center resulting in a poor handling car.

Here's a photo of mine. It shows what can be done but this is a very modified FFR 33HR.
81846

[TDSapp]

Well, this is the stance that I am looking for...

http://www.ffcars.com/forums/120-factory-five-33-hot-rod-forum-sponsored-e-t-wheels/593673-old-school-hot-rod-finished.html


He said that he used the Dan Ruth adjustable control arms, which I have, and had to raise the lower coilover mount. I would like to ask him some questions but he has not been on the forum for a long time.

[NAZ]

Can't view the photos on the link you shared but I can give you some basic tips on setting up your suspension if you want to lift the rear AND keep it handling like it was designed to. Remember, the fastest way to make an ill handling car is to make significant changes to ride height without regard to how that affects the suspension geometry.

You will want to either use longer shocks or move the mounting brackets to lift the chassis. That way you can keep the shock travel in the sweet spot. In my experience, moving the mounting brackets will usually create less "other" complications than using longer shocks. When lifting the rear keep in mind your driveshaft angle changes and besides the "acceptable" angles folks will try to maintain you also have to prevent driveshaft contact with the chassis on full droop. Hit a large bump at speed on a car that the driveshaft can contact the chassis and you're asking for a serious problem.

You will also want to keep your lower control arms parallel to the ground which will require relocating the mounting tabs at one end or the other or even both if performance is important. These mounts on the axle are levers that affect the torque application on the rear end. Google articles on roll steer (not bump steer) and find a site that has graphics to explain this effect. If you've ever ridden in a late model Wrangler with a lift kit you've experienced roll steer and the washy feeling of yaw. It can make your car drive like a forklift with the rear end steering around corners or make the car dart and wander on straights.

Then you need to relocate one end or the other (or both) of the upper control arm(s) to achieve the correct instant center which ideally should be on the 100% anti-squat line. Extremely high or low will result in making your rear smoke the tires like a drift machine or serious wheel hop at the rear during hard braking. Either way, you get a poor handling car.

Then on a three link car you have a change in roll center that you will probably want to adjust -- again by changing the mounting points on the panhard bar.

These are the basics you'll have to deal with if you want the car to handle once you're done lifting the rear. All can be dealt with on the stock FFR chassis but it will take some basic understanding of how to set-up a suspension and some fabrication work. If you're new to fabrication or suspension design you may want to find a shop that specializes in this type of work.

[TDSapp]

Can't view the photos on the link you shared but I can give you some basic tips on setting up your suspension if you want to lift the rear AND keep it handling like it was designed to. Remember, the fastest way to make an ill handling car is to make significant changes to ride height without regard to how that affects the suspension geometry.

You will want to either use longer shocks or move the mounting brackets to lift the chassis. That way you can keep the shock travel in the sweet spot. In my experience, moving the mounting brackets will usually create less "other" complications than using longer shocks. When lifting the rear keep in mind your driveshaft angle changes and besides the "acceptable" angles folks will try to maintain you also have to prevent driveshaft contact with the chassis on full droop. Hit a large bump at speed on a car that the driveshaft can contact the chassis and you're asking for a serious problem.

You will also want to keep your lower control arms parallel to the ground which will require relocating the mounting tabs at one end or the other or even both if performance is important. These mounts on the axle are levers that affect the torque application on the rear end. Google articles on roll steer (not bump steer) and find a site that has graphics to explain this effect. If you've ever ridden in a late model Wrangler with a lift kit you've experienced roll steer and the washy feeling of yaw. It can make your car drive like a forklift with the rear end steering around corners or make the car dart and wander on straights.

Then you need to relocate one end or the other (or both) of the upper control arm(s) to achieve the correct instant center which ideally should be on the 100% anti-squat line. Extremely high or low will result in making your rear smoke the tires like a drift machine or serious wheel hop at the rear during hard braking. Either way, you get a poor handling car.

Then on a three link car you have a change in roll center that you will probably want to adjust -- again by changing the mounting points on the panhard bar.

These are the basics you'll have to deal with if you want the car to handle once you're done lifting the rear. All can be dealt with on the stock FFR chassis but it will take some basic understanding of how to set-up a suspension and some fabrication work. If you're new to fabrication or suspension design you may want to find a shop that specializes in this type of work.


This is why I was asking if I could raise the body and not have to change the rear suspension. I have an adjustable 4 link rear end and DR said I should be able to move the rear end back and have enough room for a 30" tire, but that does not include a rake. I am hoping that I am go with a 29" or 30" tire and just lift the body a bit to get the look I want. Otherwise I don't have a problem moving the shock mount or changing where the lower control arms mount to the car.


Here is a picture of the car I linked to earlier.

http://hotrod.sapp-family.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/This-is-the-car-to-model-fidget-after-1-Cropped.jpg


This is the look and feel that I am going for except mine will be a rag top and will probably not be red. While this one does look awesome in red I think I want something different for my car.

[NAZ]

Yes, very cool looking car and a great look to go after. If you want to run fenderless that will make running large tires much much easier than trying to stuff big tires under the factory fenders like I'm doing. If I didn't live in the country off a cinder road I'd run fenderless and not have near as many complications making tires and wheels fit. But I tried go carting my car down my 1/4-mile long driveway and was covered in cinders so that's not an option for me.

The easiest way to get larger tires on the rear is to use wheels with short back spacing that set the rim outboard enough that the tires clear the fender wells and then run without rear fenders. Fenderless is a better look anyway for this type of hot rod and it will let you tuck the large tire in tight to the wheel well body line like you see in your attached photo. Yet since the tire sets outside the body it won't rub when the shock is compressed. The larger diameter tire is going to give you a few inches of rake all by itself if you go big. Going from a 26" tire to a 32" will lift the rear 3" alone which puts your ride height close to 8" in the rear which really will make a difference in the stance. Everybody knows that stance and wheels make the ride and the FFR stance is more like a sports car than a hot rod. The short back spacing will give you a deeper dish look on the wheels and a wider stance in the rear that will accentuate the wide tires. And with such a light car that Ford 8.8 axle won't even break a sweat running that larger overhang on the axles. Run a slightly skinner tire in front and you have that old skool drag race hot rod look it seems you're after.

If that gives you enough rake I wouldn't bother with raising the body as it's a lot of work for only an inch or so. And realize that the larger tires will change the effective gear ratio. If this is a street rod and you're running an auto I wouldn't worry about it as the torque converter will overcome the tall effective gear ratio. If you plan to run a TKO trans you could consider the TKO500 with it's 3.27:1 1st gear ratio vs the TKO600 2.87:1 ratio but even the TKO600 would easily pull the taller tire in such a light vehicle. I would not re-gear the rear end on a street rod even if I was running a 33" tire -- just not worth it unless you're building a serious race car.

Good luck, if you car turns out as good looking as the red one in the photo you'll have a very kool looking kar indeed!

[TDSapp]

That sounds great to me, I am going fender less and also no hood or side panels. I like the idea of being able to go to a 30" wheel and not having to try and lift the body any. I live in the city so I don't have to worry about the gravel most of the time. When I drive it to my moms place I have to drive about a mile down a gravel road and driveway but I can go as slow as I want.


I am running a SBC and using a 700R4 4 speed automatic transmission and the rear end is from a 2002 Mustang and has a 3.27:1 ratio rear end. The transmission has the following ratios.

1st GEAR: 3.06:1
2nd GEAR:1.631
3rd GEAR: 1
4th GEAR: 0.7
5th GEAR: Reverse

This transmission was in my Vette and it had a 3.07 rear end and could smoke the tires easily. The Vette also weighs around 1,000 more than what the hot Rod will weigh so think it will be able to handle the bigger tires.

[NAZ]

Something else to consider: Hard to tell for sure but the photo of the car you like seems to be running MT Sportsman S/R tires (a popular tire for street rods) that come in LT33x22R15. These are ~32" in diameter and look real sharp on street rods. Most of the big rubber is going to be made for 15" wheels which normally limit your brake choices. The 16" and up wheel sizes will limit tire choices to smaller diameter low profile rubber so the preferred wheel size is 15" for hot rods running big rubber imitating drag race tires.

I needed to run 15" wheels because there is a wider selection of drag sliicks in 15" but I still wanted to run the large 12.19" Wilwood rotors in the rear and a parking brake which can be mutually exclusive in most applications. What I did is go to a Wilwood Dynapro 4-piston forged caliper (120-8538) that fit the original FFR 12.19" brake kit rotors. This combo fits inside Weld RT-S Forged 15" wheels. These calipers don't have an integral p-brake and because I run c-clip eliminators the internal shoe type p-brakes are not an option. So I used a ParkLok valve (Speedway Motors 910-31301) for a hydraulic parking brake. This brake combo may not fit all 15" wheels but if you really want big brakes and a 15" wheel there are ways to get what you need. The hydraulic parking brake is much easier to install than a mechanical type and makes a cleaner installation. However it is a parking brake only -- not an e-brake.

Just more things to consider.

[TDSapp]

So right now I am going with the stock FFR front brakes and the stock rear breaks for a 2002 Mustang. Do you by chance know if they will fit in a 5 inch wheel.

[NAZ]

Tim, you'll have to measure the overall radius of the assembled brake components then compare to the various wheel manufactures inside diameters to determine fit. It takes some research but that's par for the course when building custom cars. Remember to leave room for the stick on wheel weights in your assessment. You have to find wheels with the width you need and the backspacing that give you the body clearance -- then find a wheel with the inner space to clear your brakes. You may find that steel wheels and forged aluminum give you a bit more interior room than cast aluminum. But it varies by manufacturer. So those TorqThrust (just an example) cast aluminum wheels you're in love with may not have all the critical dimensions you need. So give yourself some time to research wheels -- it's worth it in the end.