Poor GTM body quality control

[Keith1]

I typically use the other GTM forum site so I haven't posted much on this one. I thought my experience with the body work may be helpful for others who are considering building a GTM so I have posted it here as well.

My GTM has been at the body shop for around 4 months. They are doing an awesome job. The body guy who has been working on it, Chris, is a perfectionist and he has been dumbfounded at the poor quality in the construction of the GTM body. Even though this thing is constructed in a mold it is incredibly off in multiple ways. My doors are very different in width, one of them is about 1.5 inches wider (from inside car to outside) than the other! The passenger door opening is about a half inch smaller than the driver side. The wheel arches had to be cut out and redone due to being way out of round. The side window on the driver side didn't fit in the opening which necessitated adding fiberglass to the door side to allow it to fit. As has been previously written about, the door windows will not fit, you can't close the windows and get a seal. Chris was going to cut and re-weld the door frames as Shane has described but decided to cut away the inner fiberglass on the door and redo this to allow things to fit and work. The hood would not fit right on the body and this had to be cut and re-glassed. There were too many imperfections in the body to detail including door fitment, window openings, lining up the body on the frame, thickness of fiberglass where the windows sit, and on and on. All of this has resulted in costing me a lot more money than it should have due to the extensive extra labor involved. For what we pay for this kit FFR has done a very poor job of producing a body of reasonable quality. My car is looking great, painting is in a few weeks, and I'm still glad I took on this project. But I have been very disappointed in FFR, and anyone who is considering taking this baby on needs to be aware that either you have to be very good at doing a lot of needless fiberglass bodywork that you should never have had to do, or be prepared to spend a LOT of money getting it done right.

[HardRocker]

Exactly why a gen 3 needs to come out and address these issues. I was considering a GTM build but because of these and other problems I’ve decided to build a different car.

[turbomacncheese]

I asked Dave on the facebook thread if he could share any details about the skunkworks. One note of interest was that they are, in fact, moving forward on a new car based on the new coupe spaceframe. He mentioned VR, but of course pictures are still top secret and no ETA. I wouldn't be surprised if it just kinda...pushes...the GTM away from our appetite.

[rev2xs]

Ah cool, so they are working on a new GTM i take it?

I wonder if they will change the cosmetics a little like they did from gen 1 to gen 2. I hope so! Will be cool to see what they come up with.

[turbomacncheese]

No idea what they are working on except a) it's on the coupe frame and b) its in VR. FF is pretty good at keeping secrets these days. The rest is speculation/wishful thinking on my part.

[Soulstice]

Exactly why a gen 3 needs to come out and address these issues. I was considering a GTM build but because of these and other problems I’ve decided to build a different car.

Same here. Based on all the body issues and not wanting to take on 1,000+ hours of body work, I decided to move from the GTM to another project.

[Presto51]

Out of curiosity what would be the price point that anyone would pay if FFR did correct all of the flaws in the body ?

Ron

[rev2xs]

Hmm, good question

The car is already $25k, they upped the price for not much better increase in quality. So i think they should keep the price at $25k with a potential gen 3. I think they need to rebuild the GTM's reputation like that. I dont know how well the GTM is selling, but surely all the talk on various forums around the world that the GTM's body is an absolute, abhorrant nightmare (and it is), is doing it no favours. So no, a price hike is NOT the answer. Unless you want to kill off the GTM and do away with it.

And whats with the lack of promotion for the GTM? All i see in nowadays is the 33 coupe and the dog ugly 818. I hate that thing. The GTM is so pretty in comparison. The design of the 818 should have been inspired by the GTM, like a mini version of it. Basically, there is no common design language in the unique cars (ie, GTM/818) in FFR's line up. Dont get me wrong, the concept of the 818 i love, but i cant get past its hideous looks. I'd much rather go for a K1-Attack. Same performance, much, much, much better looks.. Slightly off topic there, but hey..

[lance corsi]

The 818 coupe looks a lot better than the roadster version imo. If you don't like it, you just haven't seen a properly built one!

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

It is unfortunate that the body issues will likely kill off the GTM. Not here to bash and pile-on FFR, but I think they really missed the boat when they did the Gen II. Instead of retaining all of the same bodywork issues that the Gen I had.....and adding all of the new issues that the Gen II doors created, it wouldn't have required much investment at all to make everything fit the way it should so that every kit was right instead of every kit being wrong. Spend the 300 hours ONE TIME getting the plug right BEFORE you make the moulds....instead of making EVERYONE spend 300 hours to modify their body to get it to fit right.

[rev2xs]

The 818 coupe looks a lot better than the roadster version imo. If you don't like it, you just haven't seen a properly built one!

Nah, i've seen a lot of well built ones, and there is no angle from which that car looks good to me. Especially the back. It just looks incredibly cheap, irrespective of how well its finished. Again, just my opinion and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

And yes, you are right! The coupe looks a lot better than the roadster, thats for sure. But, thats not saying much. Nither car will win any beauty contests. Espcially with the likes of a K1 Attack (17 year old design i might add). The 818 would literally become invisible standing next to that car in a car show.

Back to the GTM, Shane, you are bang on. FFR know that too. Probably why they stopped pushing the current Gen 2's marketing. We'll see if this rumoured Gen 3 comes out and what happens. If they jack up the price? The car is dead on arrival. If they barely make any design changes? The car is dead on arrival. It needs to stay the same price and be as trouble free to build (relatively speaking) as a Cobra. Thats pretty much the bottom line. Especially when competing with the likes of an SLC for example.

[Soulstice]

Nah, i've seen a lot of well built ones, and there is no angle from which that car looks good to me. Especially the back. It just looks incredibly cheap, irrespective of how well its finished. Again, just my opinion and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

And yes, you are right! The coupe looks a lot better than the roadster, thats for sure. But, thats not saying much. Nither car will win any beauty contests. Espcially with the likes of a K1 Attack (17 year old design i might add). The 818 would literally become invisible standing next to that car in a car show.

Back to the GTM, Shane, you are bang on. FFR know that too. Probably why they stopped pushing the current Gen 2's marketing. We'll see if this rumoured Gen 3 comes out and what happens. If they jack up the price? The car is dead on arrival. If they barely make any design changes? The car is dead on arrival. It needs to stay the same price and be as trouble free to build (relatively speaking) as a Cobra. Thats pretty much the bottom line. Especially when competing with the likes of an SLC for example.

exactly, If they fixed the body fitment issues, I would buy one tomorrow as I love the GTM but I just can't dedicate the amount of time or money for all of the bodywork that needs to be done to overcome some of the mold/design issues.

[UnhipPopano]

So far we have not seen F5 take advantage of Computer Aided Manufacturing, except for a small project in creating the molds for the 818's headlight units. Ramping up to do an entire body is probably an expensive proposition and may not be in their budget or plans. Think about it, if they spent the money and time to redo the GTM body with some design updates, how many more kits do you think that they would sell? What I am curious about is that in the past companies would buy a model and use it for creating molds off of it. what would the cost be of F5 trading discounts for borrowing a car that the body had been modified for best fit and symmetry and making new molds?

[rev2xs]

No doubt it would cost a lot. But FFR claims to be the worlds largest component car maker in the world, and if the likes of a Race-Car-Replicas can get away with it (ie, their SLC), then why cant FFR? Think about it, the GTM is essentially 1/2 the price of an SLC. Could you imagine if it had the same/similar body quality out of the box? I dont know what the SLC's sales data is either, but the GTM does look better (9 out of 10 people will tell you that) so by that logic, it should sell better than what it is now at the very least.

And i too dont wish to sound like i'm dumping on FFR, believe me i'm not trying to (I own a GTM ffs lol), but these sorts of things need to be talked about. FFR need to know that this is a reputation their GTM unfortunately has. They need to know this to rectify it, its in their interest to know this stuff. I DONT want to see the GTM go the way of the dodo.

And to your point, i could see how getting one of say Shane's builds and then laser scanning it for example would help out. But thats just down right embarrasing from FFR's point of view. That should not be a go-to avenue for them. They simply need to laser scan one of their own complete cars, pick a half down the middle and mirror it lol. There you go, symmetry ;)




So far we have not seen F5 take advantage of Computer Aided Manufacturing, except for a small project in creating the molds for the 818's headlight units. Ramping up to do an entire body is probably an expensive proposition and may not be in their budget or plans. Think about it, if they spent the money and time to redo the GTM body with some design updates, how many more kits do you think that they would sell? What I am curious about is that in the past companies would buy a model and use it for creating molds off of it. what would the cost be of F5 trading discounts for borrowing a car that the body had been modified for best fit and symmetry and making new molds?

[crash]

Why would FFR spend any $$ redoing the GTM? Their initial stated sales goal for the GTM was 500 units. What chassis number are they on now?

Seems to me they have moved on to other projects and written off the GTM due to body issues and the expense of the transaxle. Those two items really hold back the GTM and I just don't see much of a practical way to address either of them.

[Presto51]

Why would FFR spend any $$ redoing the GTM? Their initial stated sales goal for the GTM was 500 units. What chassis number are they on now?

Seems to me they have moved on to other projects and written off the GTM due to body issues and the expense of the transaxle. Those two items really hold back the GTM and I just don't see much of a practical way to address either of them.

All of the reply's coming from customer perspective, are valid points.

In some respect, it's extremely disappointing to have a company lose quality control of it's products, whether or not, its one, or multiple lines. To let a bad reputation continue, unaddressed could spill over infecting the company's reputation as a whole, is troubling to say the least.

While I hope that the demise of the GTM is premature, I believe that it's still a very important car for Factory Five Racing. It was the first time that the company broke free from duplicating a known previous design, to one that was their very own, which for a small company, is really no small achievement, a source of great pride.

Living in perfect world, I hope that FFR would fix the body problems with the GTM and it's other models, and keep progressing forward, getting better.

Ron

[carbon fiber]

There's something wrong with the body? How come you guys are just now telling me?:p

[Clover]

I was originally interested in the GTM and grew up a Chevy guy who adores the LS platform. I love the idea of a mid engine car and like the styling. However, when I did my research, I saw repeatedly how much more time is required to build the GTM then other FF kits and how much people end up spending. After taking all that into account, it no longer made sense for me. I like it, I don't want to build it how it currently is. If that was the only car I was interest in, I would have walked away from FF thinking they were not for the average guy. The Type 65 coupe and the 33 hot rod both also appeal to me and I think they are a lot easier to build for a novice like myself then the GTM would be. As a result, I recently ordered a Gen 3 Type 65 coupe kit instead of a GTM kit. If they were similar in terms of difficulty and time required to build them, I would have gotten the GTM but it just seems like a little more then I can put into it myself.

I have my fingers crossed that the next car will be a redone GTM. I think a successful one does help expand the FF market. With the mid engine Corvette coming soon, I am not sure that is the direction Factory Five will go though. I think a mid engine Corvette probably spells the end of the GTM and the new kit will be related to a new manufacturer that FF has not been involved with yet. Ford, GM, Subaru are all accounted for now. I think they go international and go with a an old Jag or Austin Heely or something like that. I'm just the new guy though, so I am probably wrong.

[carbon fiber]

If they had a body as well made as the RCR SLC, they'd have sold several thousand kits at the price they are now. I've heard so many people say the same thing about going with another kit or production car because of the GTM's body issues. I don't understand it myself.

[beeman]

But the SL-C is 2x the price. Don't get me wrong, I l-o-v-e the SL-C. But you can't buy consumables or damaged parts at your local shop.
GTM has always seemed like a pet project for FFR. Probably something they came up with after a few beers on a Saturday night. Probably never intended for high volume, so how much $ should they have sunk into it? But they have sold how many now, 400? Seems like a home run. Cosmetics based on a mid 90's GT car that was function over form that itself probably had major dimensional cosmetic flaws, basically a small team's couple - off cars. But I think FFR made their own clay model-or were those pictures taken in France? So FFR said let's make this race car available to the general public. I'm sure they had budget concerns, and at 2x the price of their flagship already, R&D was almost definitely limited.
So as a concept, I think FFR nailed it. How else can you get a streetable race car at this price point? That being said, bodywork time estimates should be taken with a grain of salt depending on your intentions for the car.

[FFinisher]

But the SL-C is 2x the price. Don't get me wrong, I l-o-v-e the SL-C. But you can't buy consumables or damaged parts at your local shop.
GTM has always seemed like a pet project for FFR. Probably something they came up with after a few beers on a Saturday night. Probably never intended for high volume, so how much $ should they have sunk into it? But they have sold how many now, 400? Seems like a home run. Cosmetics based on a mid 90's GT car that was function over form that itself probably had major dimensional cosmetic flaws, basically a small team's couple - off cars. But I think FFR made their own clay model-or were those pictures taken in France? So FFR said let's make this race car available to the general public. I'm sure they had budget concerns, and at 2x the price of their flagship already, R&D was almost definitely limited.
So as a concept, I think FFR nailed it. How else can you get a streetable race car at this price point? That being said, bodywork time estimates should be taken with a grain of salt depending on your intentions for the car.

I agree with a few of these points, An SLC is twice the price and you cannot buy consumable at a local parts store. Selling upwards of 400GTM kits Is certainly success for a company of the size of FFR and with their overall sales volume.

however,
I am 110% sure no decision is made after a few beers on Saturday night. That is not how FFR works. They are very thoughtful and methodical. Financial models, market understanding, build difficulty, customer value, etc. are all considered when a project is taken on. There are many gates a project has to pass before getting to production.

Discussions about how long it takes to complete a body are extremely subjective. Suggestions that any body man is a perfectionist is also very subjective. Body shops generally will find fault with every fiberglass car they work on, that's is how they drive revenue. If they tell you its terrible, the bill goes up. I had a GTM gen 2 completed a year or so ago, all paint and body work completed. In a satin Gray, which is expensive and tricky, and a gloss black roof for 10k+/-. The body guy never said a word about poor quality of the body, He just did his job as asked.

I am sure FFR could create a body that requires less work, and it could perfect for the perfectionist, and they would sell 1- maybe 2 at the price point needed to recapture the costs.

FFR balances quality and a value proposition better than any company I know. They do, unfortunately, take a bashing Periodically, by people who think it easy and solve problems in front of a keyboard. having sold over 10,000 kits of various shapes and sizes tells me they have it dialed in.

The GTM was never meant to be an easy car to build, it is a very complex car and lots of skill is required. Shane knows this better than anyone, The systems and features that make it a monster and desirable are the very features and systems people get anxious about. Fitting doors, fitting the tilt hood, wiring, etc etc are all tedious. that is the nature of the beast.

FFR is continually developing their products, improvements are made everyday and continuous improvement is certainly a driving factor over there.

From my perspective the value is there, that is what drives the company and all of us to go back.

As far as the future of the GTM, or the next project? I don't know and wouldn't want to guess. But as far as bang for the buck goes. I am very confident FFR has it Nailed.

[carbon fiber]

Dialed In??? All the problems mentioned are true, just like he said. And just like he said there are some he even left out. It's not even close to dialed in body-wise. In this era of cad-cam design and manufacturing it's not acceptable to be off by this much. There are other companies that don't have these problems, RCR is a great example. Cost of the fiberglass and resin to make these bodies is the same, just one is made with more care. The main point is these are problems that shouldn't be in the first place. The OP was just being honest so that anyone interested in building a GTM would know the real costs.

[David Hodgkins]

What do you guys think this could be?

A NEW GTM?? (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?27667-What-the-heck-is-THIS-!-A-NEW-GTM)

:)

[ben1272]

Nah, i've seen a lot of well built ones, and there is no angle from which that car looks good to me. Especially the back. It just looks incredibly cheap, irrespective of how well its finished. Again, just my opinion and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

And yes, you are right! The coupe looks a lot better than the roadster, thats for sure. But, thats not saying much. Nither car will win any beauty contests. Espcially with the likes of a K1 Attack (17 year old design i might add). The 818 would literally become invisible standing next to that car in a car show.

Back to the GTM, Shane, you are bang on. FFR know that too. Probably why they stopped pushing the current Gen 2's marketing. We'll see if this rumoured Gen 3 comes out and what happens. If they jack up the price? The car is dead on arrival. If they barely make any design changes? The car is dead on arrival. It needs to stay the same price and be as trouble free to build (relatively speaking) as a Cobra. Thats pretty much the bottom line. Especially when competing with the likes of an SLC for example.

Un-intentional asymmetry on a kit car is a big turn off for me. It screams a lack of pretty basic care during the creation of the master, which this day and age is hard to excuse.

You said it, beauty is in eye of the beholder. K1 attack?.....hideous looking. GTM.........I have NEVER liked the ugly windshield top line, or much of the rest of it for that matter. I'm with Lance....a well built 818 coupe is good looking car....far better than a K1 or GTM, in my eyes, of course.

FFR seems like they are in a strange place lately....maybe some good change is in the air? I look forward to their new supercar, but I probably wont be able to afford it regardless. I am still hopeful that FFR will continue to innovate on the 818, retrofit-ably, I might add!

[Erik W. Treves]

So I know I may get accused of "drinking the Kool-aid" ... ok may be... but the Factory Five Cars are more than just the cars they are the community. We help each other when needed; feel bad for each other when the builds don't go the way we expect... and even allow us to open up to discuss shortcomings about the kit and collectively find solutions to make the cars better for ourselves but for EVERYBODY ELSE who comes along. So bare with me for a moment...

The genesis of the company was to produce reasonably priced component cars that you complete in your garage and that would perform on the track. The idea being that they didn't want to see cars not completed = not complicated.

At the price point they set and the components that come with the cars are up to the task in my opinion... I have built a few of their cars... I have not Built a RCR , I frequently hear being compared to the GTM.... I have seen a few up close... the Yellow GTM that was in the shop where Pandora GTM was painted, I got a chance to crawl all over.... nice car!

To me this all about expectations.... Fiberglass is being put down by humans - hand-laid... the molds are put together by humans - in low production run (all their kits). Molds wear out... the second part coming out of the mold is usually the best... but the molds do need to be replaced. Are fiberglass bodies perfect? will the gaps line up? no way.... if you think RCR do - I invite you to read their own disclaimer on what to expect on the RCR website {what-to-expect}

" If you require very tight body gaps like your new Mercedes S-class, fiberglass kit cars may not be realistic for you, as even if you do the body massaging necessary to get to those gaps, the bodies will move over time and lose some of the gap precision you put into the car in the beginning"

" From ten feet, the car can be polished to look very good indeed. Many people have come up to the factory race car and remarked on the paint- but it is just polished gelcoat!
A painted body will always look better than a polished gelcoat, mostly due to the effort required to prepare the body for paint- any minor defects will be corrected, and the car can be painted to look just as good, or better, than a factory car."

Each of the company's have their pluses and minuses - you will spend 40k on a GT and less body work; and potentially less of "blank slate" to customize the car

vs

GTM - 25 K will require potentially more body work and in fact a clean sheet to customize = look at the examples that SHANE has come up with! There are some benchmark cars in there.


Bottom line - need to manage expectations and understand that fiberglass isn't perfect. There have been plenty of cases over the years where mistakes were made and Factory Five replaced those items..

I can guarantee the body being off here or there on sides you can not see at the same time - will not matter the first time you hear that thing come to life. Even the 20 extra minutes you have to account for when taking your GTM somewhere, because everybody will want to ask you about and will be impressed that YOU built it!

Certainly there are flaws - and YOUR money is something that is important and you should get what you pay for! I agree!

I am only suggesting to take a step back and enjoy the fact that you are one of few people that will undertake a task like this and it is Factory Five who has allowed that to happen... if it was going to be easy and cheap -there would be a RCR and GTM next every mail box (that would be a cool neighborhood) .

The door issue with window frame has been a well documented issue on the forum - I personally passed this one back to FFR during my GTM build. The window deal.... actually found that windows were not square... huh.... wouldn't have expected that.... even the bow of one of the side windows was different.. between 2 sets of windows; The door issue of one being physically wider inside to outside... is an interesting one... did you ask FFR for a new door? Could it be you have one Gen 1 Door and 1 Gen 2 Door?? .... man.... it's just part of it.... I ENCOURAGE you to reach out on either forum... and Factory Five.... they want you to be happy with your kit....and with in reason they will help you do that!

For me... I saved this GTM from another builder who failed to deliver (locally here)... and the owner wanted it finished.... the previous builder was so pissed - he put ALL THE PARTS from FFR in ONE box!!!! Can I tell you how hard it was to find parts that were not in their marked boxes!! I always took for granted FFR packing procedure and numbering.... never again....

While it's easy to say quality can be better and more precise tools and mapping equipment can be used... certainly the mass produced cars can leverage the economy of scales, somebody mentioned earlier, to lean on to cover the expense of that technology... The issue, and I am sure everyone can understand, how does a company balance that with also keeping the cost down so you can afford to do this in your garage.

BTW I am not just making statements without some experience - and yes my wheel arches were SLIGHTLY off and my door frames had to be re-welded, and the hood was slightly off if you had a ruler... but until now ... I only knew that. :)

It came out ok for most... THANKS SHANE for all the custom stuff !!! And Wayne P. for all the logistical/paint and dyno tune... (have to give them props!!) - all I did was put it together!

this was in and out of the Body shop in 4 months.... the other 4 months was the rest of the build ...8 months to completion... man it was hard! boy was it fun!....

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=49228&d=1451440007

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=49229&d=1451440008

[ben1272]

So I know I may get accused of "drinking the Kool-aid" ... ok may be... but the Factory Five Cars are more than just the cars they are the community. We help each other when needed; feel bad for each other when the builds don't go the way we expect... and even allow us to open up to discuss shortcomings about the kit and collectively find solutions to make the cars better for ourselves but for EVERYBODY ELSE who comes along. So bare with me for a moment...

The genesis of the company was to produce reasonably priced component cars that you complete in your garage and that would perform on the track. The idea being that they didn't want to see cars not completed = not complicated.

At the price point they set and the components that come with the cars are up to the task in my opinion... I have built a few of their cars... I have not Built a RCR , I frequently hear being compared to the GTM.... I have seen a few up close... the Yellow GTM that was in the shop where Pandora GTM was painted, I got a chance to crawl all over.... nice car!

To me this all about expectations.... Fiberglass is being put down by humans - hand-laid... the molds are put together by humans - in low production run (all their kits). Molds wear out... the second part coming out of the mold is usually the best... but the molds do need to be replaced. Are fiberglass bodies perfect? will the gaps line up? no way.... if you think RCR do - I invite you to read their own disclaimer on what to expect on the RCR website {what-to-expect}

" If you require very tight body gaps like your new Mercedes S-class, fiberglass kit cars may not be realistic for you, as even if you do the body massaging necessary to get to those gaps, the bodies will move over time and lose some of the gap precision you put into the car in the beginning"

" From ten feet, the car can be polished to look very good indeed. Many people have come up to the factory race car and remarked on the paint- but it is just polished gelcoat!
A painted body will always look better than a polished gelcoat, mostly due to the effort required to prepare the body for paint- any minor defects will be corrected, and the car can be painted to look just as good, or better, than a factory car."

Each of the company's have their pluses and minuses - you will spend 40k on a GT and less body work; and potentially less of "blank slate" to customize the car

vs

GTM - 25 K will require potentially more body work and in fact a clean sheet to customize = look at the examples that SHANE has come up with! There are some benchmark cars in there.


Bottom line - need to manage expectations and understand that fiberglass isn't perfect. There have been plenty of cases over the years where mistakes were made and Factory Five replaced those items..

I can guarantee the body being off here or there on sides you can not see at the same time - will not matter the first time you hear that thing come to life. Even the 20 extra minutes you have to account for when taking your GTM somewhere, because everybody will want to ask you about and will be impressed that YOU built it!

Certainly there are flaws - and YOUR money is something that is important and you should get what you pay for! I agree!

I am only suggesting to take a step back and enjoy the fact that you are one of few people that will undertake a task like this and it is Factory Five who has allowed that to happen... if it was going to be easy and cheap -there would be a RCR and GTM next every mail box (that would be a cool neighborhood) .

The door issue with window frame has been a well documented issue on the forum - I personally passed this one back to FFR during my GTM build. The window deal.... actually found that windows were not square... huh.... wouldn't have expected that.... even the bow of one of the side windows was different.. between 2 sets of windows; The door issue of one being physically wider inside to outside... is an interesting one... did you ask FFR for a new door? Could it be you have one Gen 1 Door and 1 Gen 2 Door?? .... man.... it's just part of it.... I ENCOURAGE you to reach out on either forum... and Factory Five.... they want you to be happy with your kit....and with in reason they will help you do that!

For me... I saved this GTM from another builder who failed to deliver (locally here)... and the owner wanted it finished.... the previous builder was so pissed - he put ALL THE PARTS from FFR in ONE box!!!! Can I tell you how hard it was to find parts that were not in their marked boxes!! I always took for granted FFR packing procedure and numbering.... never again....

While it's easy to say quality can be better and more precise tools and mapping equipment can be used... certainly the mass produced cars can leverage the economy of scales, somebody mentioned earlier, to lean on to cover the expense of that technology... The issue, and I am sure everyone can understand, how does a company balance that with also keeping the cost down so you can afford to do this in your garage.

BTW I am not just making statements without some experience - and yes my wheel arches were SLIGHTLY off and my door frames had to be re-welded, and the hood was slightly off if you had a ruler... but until now ... I only knew that. :)

It came out ok for most... THANKS SHANE for all the custom stuff !!! And Wayne P. for all the logistical/paint and dyno tune... (have to give them props!!) - all I did was put it together!

this was in and out of the Body shop in 4 months.... the other 4 months was the rest of the build ...8 months to completion... man it was hard! boy was it fun!....

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=49228&d=1451440007

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=49229&d=1451440008

That's a nice looking GTM.

The FFR community is definitely a big part of what you discover is great about building one of their cars. You make many good points, and I love FFR, and I truly appreciate what they do and have done, but I also believe in a constant quest for improvement, and so does FFR. They will keep fixing and improving....it's what they do, and it shows.

[beeman]

GTM.........I have NEVER liked the ugly windshield top line, or much of the rest of it for that matter.

Have you seen one in person? I was mildly impressed by pictures until I saw one in person. My wife saw it too and told me I HAD TO build one.

[crash]

What do you guys think this could be?

A NEW GTM?? (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?27667-What-the-heck-is-THIS-!-A-NEW-GTM)

:)

As edwardb said in that other thread...

"They all beat me to it. Numerous hints that the next release will be something based on the Gen 3 Coupe chassis. I didn't compare every detail, but the pictures showing the chassis look very much like the Gen 3 Coupe chassis sitting in my garage. Obvious major departure from the GTM design though (and 818 for that matter) going from rear mid-engine to front engine."

That aint no GTM.

[Keith1]

I agree with a few of these points, An SLC is twice the price and you cannot buy consumable at a local parts store. Selling upwards of 400GTM kits Is certainly success for a company of the size of FFR and with their overall sales volume.

however,
I am 110% sure no decision is made after a few beers on Saturday night. That is not how FFR works. They are very thoughtful and methodical. Financial models, market understanding, build difficulty, customer value, etc. are all considered when a project is taken on. There are many gates a project has to pass before getting to production.

Discussions about how long it takes to complete a body are extremely subjective. Suggestions that any body man is a perfectionist is also very subjective. Body shops generally will find fault with every fiberglass car they work on, that's is how they drive revenue. If they tell you its terrible, the bill goes up. I had a GTM gen 2 completed a year or so ago, all paint and body work completed. In a satin Gray, which is expensive and tricky, and a gloss black roof for 10k+/-. The body guy never said a word about poor quality of the body, He just did his job as asked.

I am sure FFR could create a body that requires less work, and it could perfect for the perfectionist, and they would sell 1- maybe 2 at the price point needed to recapture the costs.

FFR balances quality and a value proposition better than any company I know. They do, unfortunately, take a bashing Periodically, by people who think it easy and solve problems in front of a keyboard. having sold over 10,000 kits of various shapes and sizes tells me they have it dialed in.

The GTM was never meant to be an easy car to build, it is a very complex car and lots of skill is required. Shane knows this better than anyone, The systems and features that make it a monster and desirable are the very features and systems people get anxious about. Fitting doors, fitting the tilt hood, wiring, etc etc are all tedious. that is the nature of the beast.

FFR is continually developing their products, improvements are made everyday and continuous improvement is certainly a driving factor over there.

From my perspective the value is there, that is what drives the company and all of us to go back.

As far as the future of the GTM, or the next project? I don't know and wouldn't want to guess. But as far as bang for the buck goes. I am very confident FFR has it Nailed.

I guess I would disagree that they were 'dialed' in on my car. Like I said in my opening post, I'm glad I got the car and I think it will be great when I finish it, but there have been a LOT of needless headaches that I feel FFR should have eliminated from this project. One other example that I didn't describe above, one door was so flexed that there was no way to get it to fit in the opening correctly, my body guy had to cut the door vertically and re-glass it with clamps in place to get it in a shape that would allow it to fit right in the opening. That seems to me to be something that should not be happening. I don't think its asking too much to have the doors fit in the opening they were designed to. The extra time that my body shop is needing to fix these errors doubled the cost from the estimate they gave me ( from 10K to 20K). They have been great to work with and are only going to charge me 14K and eat the rest of it since this is the first GTM they have done and when they quoted me the price they didn't realize the problems they were taking on. They do many other FFR cars and have commented on the difference in body quality. Maybe my car was an aberration, but from the responses I see it doesn't sound like it. My intent with this post was not to kill off the GTM, it was to try and get FFR to step up to the plate and do the right thing with this car so others after me won't have to pay the price.

[Keith1]

Erik,
Beautiful car, you should be proud.

You make many great points. I too have really appreciated the forum and would have had great difficulty building my GTM without it. ( I actually have used the other forum site but I know its pretty much the same group). I'm afraid my experience dealing with FFR hasn't been as positive as yours. I didn't contact them to replace my door since by the time I was told what was wrong with it the body guy had already put in the time to fix it. I spent a month trying to get it to fit on my own but couldn't and just thought I was the problem since its not my line of work. Just before I first ordered my GTM I asked Dan about the window fitment issue and he told me that that wasn't a problem. He thought one of the "jigs" was off and that they fixed it. They didn't. When I have called FFR to ask questions about my build I have been given wrong information that I later had to correct (electrical stuff). I have had very good service from the parts dept, they have been very helpful getting parts to me that were overlooked or delayed. I have hesitated to write these things because I'm not looking to bash FFR, I just hope that some of these obvious issues can get some attention and hopefully the next guy building this great car will have more hair left when its completed!

[beeman]

As edwardb said in that other thread...

"They all beat me to it. Numerous hints that the next release will be something based on the Gen 3 Coupe chassis. I didn't compare every detail, but the pictures showing the chassis look very much like the Gen 3 Coupe chassis sitting in my garage. Obvious major departure from the GTM design though (and 818 for that matter) going from rear mid-engine to front engine."

That aint no GTM.

Maybe a modern take on the Daytona?

http://images.gizmag.com/inline/carroll-shelby-1.jpg

http://mycarquest.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/cd3705a4a0183be77eeadf21c01f1076.jpg

[flynntuna]

Or the Austin Martin Vulcan...

[Presto51]

Keith,

Can you tell us what number is your GTM?

Thanks

Ron

[Presto51]

Or the Austin Martin Vulcan...

Ah man tuna you beat me to it, rats! :cool:



Ron

[ben1272]

Have you seen one in person? I was mildly impressed by pictures until I saw one in person. My wife saw it too and told me I HAD TO build one.

Yeah, been in and around many times at the factory, but I will say I think it looks better in person than in photos (same with 818). Like someone said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Many dont like the 818 styling either (including me until they changed the front end to the new design and I bought one!).

[Keith1]

Keith,

Can you tell us what number is your GTM?

Thanks

Ron

My GTM is # 495.

[Presto51]

My GTM is # 495.

Keith,

The reason I asked about your GTM number is, appears to me that the Factory process for the molds seems to be slipping.

I worked on RumRunner’s car GTM 327, which didn’t seem to be all that bad, perfect, nope, but not that bad either.

Currently working with another forum members GTM with a higher number, (which escapes me right now, but do know it’s higher than 327), which has been a holy terror, with parting lines that are very excessive.

Talk to another forum member about three weeks ago, who was asking for tips and tricks on the body of his car, GTM 493, below is a couple of pictures of his parting lines.

Now I’m not pretending to be a composite, or molding expert, so correct me if I’m wrong, but with excessive parting lines like the ones in the pictures, wouldn’t that mean the molds sections weren’t join together correctly, which is throwing the whole body panel alignment way off?

82342 82343

Ron

[Keith1]

Keith,

The reason I asked about your GTM number is, appears to me that the Factory process for the molds seems to be slipping.

I worked on RumRunner’s car GTM 327, which didn’t seem to be all that bad, perfect, nope, but not that bad either.

Currently working with another forum members GTM with a higher number, (which escapes me right now, but do know it’s higher than 327), which has been a holy terror, with parting lines that are very excessive.

Talk to another forum member about three weeks ago, who was asking for tips and tricks on the body of his car, GTM 493, below is a couple of pictures of his parting lines.

Now I’m not pretending to be a composite, or molding expert, so correct me if I’m wrong, but with excessive parting lines like the ones in the pictures, wouldn’t that mean the molds sections weren’t join together correctly, which is throwing the whole body panel alignment way off?

82342 82343

Ron

Ron,
My parting lines were every bit that bad. Maybe that is partly whats causing the poor alignment in areas. My doors are incredibly different from one side to the other. I don't understand how that can happen with a mold.
Keith

[David Hodgkins]

Those parting lines look GREAT compared to my MKIII roadster.

Just sayin'...

:)

[beeman]

Ron, is there a step off /height difference between the panels or just a wide strip of gelcoat?

[carbon fiber]

They shouldn't make sections and then glass them together, it should be made as ONE PIECE in a multi-piece mold that is bolted together. Hopefully the next car body they make will be cut out by a muliti-axis machine and a proper set of molds will be created. As far as the asymmetry in the doors, I have a set of Gen I and Gen II doors and neither set match from side to side. Not even close. Just like all the other parts of the body. Care was not taken when shaping this body (or measurements either) It's time to fix it or stop making it and move on with better technology. To me, it would be worth the effort to make a refined Gen III GTM body. It's a fantastic performer, you already have the frame jigs, and I think it would sell better than ever if they'd just fix the body. (I've talked to so many people that would have bought this kit if the body issues weren't there) I disagree with Crash also (not the first time) that it's run it's course. Donor vettes are everywhere, cheap. You can get the 996 Carrera 2 transaxles at great prices and they're strong enough in this light of a car. It's never been easier or cheaper to put a transaxle in one of these. If the body issues were corrected, the kit would still have a lot of life left IMHO.

[Presto51]

Those parting lines look GREAT compared to my MKIII roadster.

Just sayin'...

:)

David your joking ....Right :confused:


Ron, is there a step off /height difference between the panels or just a wide strip of gelcoat?

Beeman,

I have noticed that the joints have a step/height difference. Even if just a small misalignment in the sections, with a complex body shape such as the GTM, they start to compound the problems.

I do hope that the factory will continue the GTM and improve their QC across the board on all of their body lines, I want them to succeed as much as the rest of the forum members.

Ron

[RM1SepEx]

In today's environment there is no excuse for the the hand made variation in the FFR panels. There is 1/2 to 3/4 inch variation in measurements between the door openings in my 818 and the rear body to engine cover interface is so bad it can't be made to align w/o bodywork and it was sold as a no paint car. They need to do two things: Simplify the body to make it easier to mold the panels and actually use the CAD files to make the molds for the panels. Right now their expert body shaper nuances everything and it doesn't result in the two sides being close to matching. The car should be designed from the centerline and mirrored so both sides are identical. The parting lines are positioned so that the panels bolt together across 3 dimensions making alignment almost impossible.

Their quality control is virtually non existent when it comes to fiberglass and gel coat. My car has 4000 miles on the road and I've had the body crack and pop out voids in the gel coat in at least 40 places... I've never bought anything made of fiberglass that had to be reworked when purchased, and you have to beg to get a gel coat repair kit to match. And these are my second set of panels...

Next their frames to body match and alignment results in slotted holes that always end up at the extreme end of the slot? How the hell does that happen every single time. One side of my windshield frame it at one end of the slots, the other is at the other end of the slots. And the measurements are still not exactly the same. The door latch slots had to be ground longer with a die grinder or the bracket wouldn't mount up flush to the bodywork.

They could actually save money if they did it right in the first place they could save so much customer service resources.

[dallas_]

For comparison, here is how the SL-C body comes from the factory:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=82407&d=1520727854

Some tiny mold lines that can be sanded down so they are not visible. You can buff it and it looks like paint.

Again, I'm a FFR fan and want them to be successful. I'm not posting this to bash them, but I will say I wanted to build a GTM but the quality of the body caused me to go a different direction.

[Erik W. Treves]

In today's environment there is no excuse for the the hand made variation in the FFR panels. There is 1/2 to 3/4 inch variation in measurements between the door openings in my 818 and the rear body to engine cover interface is so bad it can't be made to align w/o bodywork and it was sold as a no paint car. They need to do two things: Simplify the body to make it easier to mold the panels and actually use the CAD files to make the molds for the panels. Right now their expert body shaper nuances everything and it doesn't result in the two sides being close to matching. The car should be designed from the centerline and mirrored so both sides are identical. The parting lines are positioned so that the panels bolt together across 3 dimensions making alignment almost impossible.

Their quality control is virtually non existent when it comes to fiberglass and gel coat. My car has 4000 miles on the road and I've had the body crack and pop out voids in the gel coat in at least 40 places... I've never bought anything made of fiberglass that had to be reworked when purchased, and you have to beg to get a gel coat repair kit to match. And these are my second set of panels...

Next their frames to body match and alignment results in slotted holes that always end up at the extreme end of the slot? How the hell does that happen every single time. One side of my windshield frame it at one end of the slots, the other is at the other end of the slots. And the measurements are still not exactly the same. The door latch slots had to be ground longer with a die grinder or the bracket wouldn't mount up flush to the bodywork.

They could actually save money if they did it right in the first place they could save so much customer service resources.



Dallas

Man every time I see that car... I am like... I need to build one of those. Unfortunately the rules of the house state that I can only have 1 of these 4 wheeled motorcycles in the house at a time...lol.... I can do 2 ... Build 1 , but the other must be for sale at the time of the purchase :) Ahhhh the problems to have... My wife puts up with me and she is my rock... so that is great with me... The other thing for me personally is the price point to get into a SLC which really does need to be painted (IMO) given the exotic nature of the car... I was actually really thinking about doing a twin turbo H6 motor with STI tranny.... leave it to me to color outside the lines.... can you send me a PM of where your build thread is located if you have one?? Good luck on the build!

Dan - I gotta say ... the comparison between the 818 and GTM is not even in the same ballpark... they were built and designed using 2 different technologies and methods. The 818 being the first "update" to their process and your car being the very early production car that didn't have all the changes made to it from the Beta cars.... I tried to get mine built as fast as I could (4 months) to get the changes into production as soon as I found them.... unfortunately the train continues.... The newer runs are SUPERIOR to your car now - so going first on a new run car isn't always good as you are finding.... and shouldn't have been a surprise...I can tell you my latest car in build quality is better than my first.... The GEN 2 GTM was built with old methods albeit still hand laid ; non-vacuumed glass layup. This process will have voids no matter what .... until they go to vacuum impregnated method (reads $$$$) then AGAIN at the price break point "things" will happen. --- Factory Five does recognize that and I know for a fact that they go to great lengths to at least try and do right by customers.... you stated you were on your second set of panels.... I would guess factory five gave those panels for FREE?? did you have to exchange them or do you currently have to 818 complete panel sets? Anyway... sorry couldn't leave that one alone....

Dallas... now I am going to have spend the evening looking at the RCR website....lol... thanks for that pic.... nice machine you have there!!

Keith.... BTW do have pics of your car and what color are you going with?? Having pics of issues and resolution (if any) are always useful on the forum as you know... I know you said you posted on the "other forum" I search around and only found a few posts and since PB stopped working over there and the ads , I ultimately stopped going over there...

BTW I did see in one of your pics you have the heater/blower in the stock location...I noticed in mine (after the build was done) that when it was really cold out, if the blower is sucking cold air the heater does not work very well at all at speed.... Shane again to the rescue.... his solution would fix that!

Starting to warm up out there! lol... well at least in Alabama... had to go by the local Autozone and thank them for their service during my build.... left my mark there... approaching 500 miles finally!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=82416&d=1520735484

NO ARKING now.... lol...

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=82415&d=1520735483

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=82414&d=1520735481

[dallas_]

Thanks Erik. No build thread, but I'm getting closer! Hope to take it to the Texas Cobra Club meet in San Marcos next month.

(sorry for the thread drift)

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=82418&d=1520738337

[beeman]

They shouldn't make sections and then glass them together, it should be made as ONE PIECE in a multi-piece mold that is bolted together.

I'm 99.9% sure that's how FFR does it

[carbon fiber]

For comparison, here is how the SL-C body comes from the factory:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=82407&d=1520727854

Some tiny mold lines that can be sanded down so they are not visible. You can buff it and it looks like paint.

Again, I'm a FFR fan and want them to be successful. I'm not posting this to bash them, but I will say I wanted to build a GTM but the quality of the body caused me to go a different direction.

EXACTLY What I've heard at least a hundred times myself. They'd have sold thousands if it came with a body as nice as the SLC. And nobody give me that "but it's 46k" bull. Most of the extra cost of the SLC is for the aluminum chassis and cnc suspension parts. If FFR re-bodied the GTM with that kind of quality and didn't change anything else, they'd sell a ton of them.

[carbon fiber]

Dallas



Dan - I gotta say ... the comparison between the 818 and GTM is not even in the same ballpark... they were built and designed using 2 different technologies and methods. The 818 being the first "update" to their process and your car being the very early production car that didn't have all the changes made to it from the Beta cars.... I tried to get mine built as fast as I could (4 months) to get the changes into production as soon as I found them.... unfortunately the train continues.... The newer runs are SUPERIOR to your car now - so going first on a new run car isn't always good as you are finding.... and shouldn't have been a surprise...I can tell you my latest car in build quality is better than my first.... The GEN 2 GTM was built with old methods albeit still hand laid ; non-vacuumed glass layup. This process will have voids no matter what .... until they go to vacuum impregnated method (reads $$$$) then AGAIN at the price break point "things" will happen. --- Factory Five does recognize that and I know for a fact that they go to great lengths to at least try and do right by customers.... you stated you were on your second set of panels.... I would guess factory five gave those panels for FREE?? did you have to exchange them or do you currently have to 818 complete panel sets? Anyway... sorry couldn't leave that one alone....


I can't leave this comment alone either... You're actually bashing a guy that has legitimate complaints and just wanted what he was sold. Do you think he just wanted an extra set of body panels? That sounds like what you're insinuating. He should have expected low quality issues from an early kit? REALLY?
Sounds to me like he was sold a kit & body billed as vastly improved over their previous models and it wasn't the case at all. The 818 is hand shaped just like the GTM and has similar body alignment and symmetry issues. I saw the pics of the 818 being shaped that leaked out before the design contest was even over. BY HAND. The "early kit" b.s. really pisses me off. What a lame excuse for poor craftsmanship. Why isn't everything sorted out before the first kit leaves the factory? I'm sick and tired of FFR fan boys like you defending FFR when you know these problems are real. They have a chance to redeem themselves in the future with these new projects they're working on. I hope they put out a product as nice as Fran Hall, they haven't yet, and this comes from a guy who owns a GTM would like to see FFR reach that level. "going to great lengths" would be MAKING THE KIT RIGHT in the first place. Or maybe the new SUPERLITE GTR is my next project82437

[Erik W. Treves]

Not bashing the guy or insinuating anything close to what you seem to describe... "He should have expected low quality issues from an early kit? REALLY?" No, I am saying that he should not have been surprised..... how many times have you heard people say they wouldn't buy the first year run of any OEM car??? wonder why that is?? Look at the Mustang GT350 and the vibration issue with the new engine... or the Nissan GTR and its early transmission issue.....there are 2 sides to every story obviously... Dan has PM'd me . And I appreciate him taking it off line with me...I maybe sound like I am defending them... not that they need it IMO, as I said, managing expectations.... I am honest and open about the amount of work the bodywork takes when asked...The "early kit" b.s. really pisses me off. ... the Mark 1 kit cobra is a far cry from the Mark IV... that took them years to get to that point.... in the end it is just part of it, at the price point in my eyes... I wish I was in a position to do a car like have pictured above.... someday.... super nice car btw! and I will end up doing a SLC I think....

Nothing we say here will fix the issue the OP is having....or sway opinions one way or another.... hopefully the bodyshop will fix him up.

[David Hodgkins]

This thread has turned into bashing FFR and recommending other kits.

carbon fiber is banned for a week.

Closed.