Why has everybody sold their 818?

[mcamera]

Hi there,
I've been looking at the 818 for a few years now, and I'm almost to the point where I can start planning my build. Up until now I've been moving around and I haven't had a house for the last couple years (so no garage to work in). However, I'm a few months away from having my new house built and I'll finally have a garage again! Recently I started reading a lot of build threads to get some ideas and learn more about the 818 in general. They've been a great resource so far, so thank you to anybody that has contributed over the years.

I did notice something strange while reading the build threads though. A lot of people put dates for when they bought, first started, first drove, completed, tracked, etc... their cars in their signature. I was surprised at how many of these signatures said they sold their 818 within a year of completing it. After spending a year building the car and putting so much money into it, why have so many people quickly sold their 818?

Was it too unrefined, expensive to insure, impractical outside of a track? Maybe it was more fun to build than actually drive or you had an opportunity to sell it for a profit? Perhaps people just didn't want to store it or never found time to drive it?

I'm just curious why somebody would put $20k+ into a car for less than a year of use. If you could, please share your experience or give some feedback.


Thanks,
Mike

[lance corsi]

Mike
Lots of ppl build the car as FFR intends and when finished, realize the car doesn't measure up to their preconceived notions. Also, given the multiple body panels, body fitment is more difficult than some 1 piece bodies. Add in that many ppl don't have the facility nor the skills to build that exceptional car that they had envisioned. And don't forget that the 818 is in its early years, therefore many small but not incidental areas still need to be addressed, causing builders to engineer certain fixes as they go. And finally, there's that thing about revisiting certain aspects of the build which were let go or still needed more work, which rarely happens. These cars can be as big of a money pit as any other FFR car, it all depends on you.

[phil1734]

I haven't sold, but have certainly thought about it before. Living in Michigan means my car is in storage about 5 months out of the year which really kills it for me, and I'm pretty young and adventurous when it comes to driving it in cold weather. Obviously a full HVAC would improve that, but really it just needs a roof for the occasional passing rain. We have a 25% chance of rain here just about every day which makes it hard to take out for an all day or weekend adventure. Given the return on investment, I probably wouldn't even bother with the windows whether it was a hard or soft top, I'd just like something to keep the seats relatively dry.

The second thing that would help greatly is a bit of storage space. With two people in the car you're limited to an area behind the seats about the size of a phone book and whatever your passenger is willing to hold in their lap. This is easy enough for me to fix with the trunk kit and I plan to do so before summer. It'll also give me somewhere to keep all the little things that normally live in your glove box (insurance cards, tire pressure gauge, etc.)

And I'll second everything Lance listed above. Based on this forum it seems like less than 50% of all FFR cars are ever really driven. They're simply never completed, or become trailer queens due to investment/reliability issues.

[flynntuna]

I agree with what's been said so far. I'd add that a few have sold their cars to fund other projects or toys. One sold to buy a boat, others have sold to buy another kit. I think I remember one sold to fund the expansion of their business.

[mcamera]

Lance, I could definitely see somebody building a half-baked car and being let down at the end result. I've read about the FFR issues, but I noticed more that a lot of people go off on tangents re-engineering parts and designing custom setups that seem to multiply their build time/costs. I've enjoyed seeing what the community has come up with, but personally I would stick closer to the book to keep time/costs down. While focusing on the quality of my work rather than doubling it and spreading myself thin. I feel like a lot of builders created their own issues and drove costs up when they ventured too far off the path. I think I'd be happy with a $20k car that's 90% perfect, over a $40k car that's 95% perfect. Also, my wife only agreed to let me use her half of the garage for 1 year so I'll be on a time crunch lol.

Hey Phil, I hear ya about the weather. Columbus, OH isn't too different from the southern half of Michigan. I drive up north of Detroit every couple months for work and Columbus is similar but a little more mild (temp and precipitation wise). I would want to add an HVAC system though to extend my driving time in cool weather. Luckily we don't get much snow down here so that's a minor concern. I completely agree with you on the trunk. I had the same concerns when considering a motorcycle. Without any storage, there would be almost no trips that were suitable for it. I'm not going to go grocery shopping, transport boxes to work, or lug a suitcase home on it. It would only be good for joy rides which wasn't appealing to me.

Flynntuna, I can understand that but I'm actually doing the opposite. I've been waiting to buy a house, so I could have a garage to build my car lol. What's better than 2 large investments?

Thanks for your input guys. These are all great points to consider.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I've been involved with Factory Five cars for the better part of 2 decades, having built for myself as well as for customers. Much of the time I think it comes down to expectations; some may look at the 818 and think that it is comparable to a Boxter that they can build for themselves---it isn't. There was a recent discussion on this exact topic. It was heavily Roadster related but the main points are applicable.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?26711-Some-thoughts-after-selling-a-few-FFR-cars&highlight=expectations

Jeff

[mcamera]

I've been involved with Factory Five cars for the better part of 2 decades, having built for myself as well as for customers. Much of the time I think it comes down to expectations; some may look at the 818 and think that it is comparable to a Boxter that they can build for themselves---it isn't. There was a recent discussion on this exact topic. It was heavily Roadster related but the main points are applicable.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?26711-Some-thoughts-after-selling-a-few-FFR-cars&highlight=expectations

Jeff

That thread had some great info Jeff. Thanks for the link. As somebody that occasionally races, does all his own maintenance, and supercharged his last car (Acura RSX-S), I think I have the personality that would appreciate an 818's rewards over it's short comings.

[AC Bill]

These are all great points to consider.

Consider this while your at it. The majority of guys building the FFR Cobra replica's (other than then the guys purposely building to sell), often hang on to their cars for years, and years. Perhaps the classic looks, and the roar of a an American V8 engine is more attractive in the long run.

[turbomacncheese]

Also, my wife only agreed to let me use her half of the garage for 1 year so I'll be on a time crunch lol.


Her half of the garage? Man, we give up so much already!!

I put up an interior wall so my wife could an office all to herself. And she already gets decoration authority over the entire house as well as supreme domain of the bedroom. Garage is MINE, and I let her park in it!!! Except Saturdays, when I'm working on the 818!

[Doug @ Forma]

In addition to the thoughts already expressed, some folks enjoy the build experience more than the ownership experience. Once that last screw is turned, they start itching for another project.

BTW, we're in Columbus as well and I daily drive a 2002 RSX-S. Send me a PM if you want to come by and look over our 818S some time.

[mcamera]

Perhaps the classic looks, and the roar of a an American V8 engine is more attractive in the long run.

I actually found FFR a few years ago when I was looking to build a Cobra. I do like the Cobra's a lot, but when I saw the 818 I knew it was more my style. I've seen several cobra's on the road and at car meets, but I've actually never seen an 818 in person. Their rarity is part of the appeal to me.


Her half of the garage? Man, we give up so much already!!

I put up an interior wall so my wife could an office all to herself. And she already gets decoration authority over the entire house as well as supreme domain of the bedroom. Garage is MINE, and I let her park in it!!! Except Saturdays, when I'm working on the 818!

You're preaching to the choir. The garage will definitely be my area, but she was irritated that she would have to park outside for another winter if I was building a car in the garage. Our compromise was that I had to buy a remote start for her car. Is my leash getting shorter?


In addition to the thoughts already expressed, some folks enjoy the build experience more than the ownership experience. Once that last screw is turned, they start itching for another project.

BTW, we're in Columbus as well and I daily drive a 2002 RSX-S. Send me a PM if you want to come by and look over our 818S some time.

I know how that goes. I'm always looking for a project and I'm excited this one will take awhile. I'll definitely PM you. Like I mentioned above, I've never seen an 818 in person so I would love to check yours out. Thanks for reaching out!

[Carlsonmj]

In addition to the thoughts already expressed, some folks enjoy the build experience more than the ownership experience. Once that last screw is turned, they start itching for another project.

This.

It is about the journey and not the destination.

I don't expect to own mine for long after the build. I will probably do a few mods here and there AFTER I sum up the build but knowing myself, I will move on to another build of some sort, rinse, and repeat.

[AZPete]

These 3 guys have it right . . .

Turbomacncheese: "The garage is mine and I let her park in it!" (YES!!)
Doug@ Formacars: "Once that last screw is turned they start itching . . ."
Carlsonmj: "It is about the journey and not the destination."

I've built 2 FFR cars. When there was nothing more I could do to my roadster, I sold it.
Now, I'm having a tough time finding more projects for my 818, so I'm thinking of selling it.
For me, the fun is in the garage more than on the road because it's a big fun project.
If I wanted a fast, fun, cool-looking sports car, I would just buy one.
But, they come already built. What's the fun in that?

There are many other like-minded lunatics who love building more than driving so a low mileage 818 may have been built with great care and pride by a guy looking for his next project.

[Mitch Wright]

I am with you Pete, the build is a big part of the fun factor for me. The second phase of the fun factor I enjoy is tuning and development my 818R so it has its place in the shop for a while.
And yes I have started another build project. Plus it gives me a really good excuse to buy more tools and equipment.

[turbomacncheese]

In addition to the thoughts already expressed, some folks enjoy the build experience more than the ownership experience. Once that last screw is turned, they start itching for another project.

I've already begun to prepare my wife for the next project, and I don't even have my engine wired up yet. Next round will have to be much more affordable, though. Like an 80s semi-restoration.


You're preaching to the choir. The garage will definitely be my area, but she was irritated that she would have to park outside for another winter if I was building a car in the garage.
That's fair, I think. See if there isn't some way to clear up enough space that she can still park there. We both park in the driveway while I'm a-wrenching, but I clear out a space for her to park at night.


Our compromise was that I had to buy a remote start for her car. Is my leash getting shorter?
Yes, yes it is. But it happens to the best of us. Well, the best of us who stay married, anyway...

[DND]

Well, when you guys that would rather build than drive want to sell your 818's just let me know.
I would like to build but just don't have the time and in the end the only reason I want to build is so I can drive it. ;)

[Clover]

My deal with my wife had been that I get the garage spots when I need them, however, I would need to scrape ice off her car in the morning if I was taking up the spot. I was happy with that deal but somehow I have convinced her, or possibly she convinced me with some mind trick, that we should buy land with enough space to build a large outbuilding garage workshop for me. She loves making things herself, so she has always been really supportive of my projects. That is a large part of how I view the Factory Five cars though, as projects. Yes, I think it will be great fun to drive around in it afterwards, however, some of that will be pride in building it for me. I expect that I will keep the car I build for a while but I can certainly see how many people build it and move on to another project once they are finished with it. After all, there is always the next project and who knows how much that is going to cost.

[ben1272]

My 818 is getting close to ready for inspection/registration and it has been a fun journey. That said, for some reason I feel like the car has not taken on the life that I thought it would while I was reading about the cars development. I was probably expecting too much, but I had hoped that it would catch on in the tuner world, be seen on covers of tuner magazines/websites, maybe even make its way on to an Xbox or playstation game..... It kind of seems like the car has fizzled and is need of some new development injection. It would be nice if there were more going on with the 818 at the factory, but it really seems to be languishing. Probably just my imagination.

I like my car, but there is a good chance I will try to sell it once there is nothing left for me to build on it. Unless the factory keeps releasing new improvements and upgrades that make it fun to keep......targa top kit? New aero kit? Updated rear end design? New engine option(s)? Interior kit (more OE like)? Better door design/implementation? Soft top/S windshield frame revision that works with power side windows (this is a must in my opinion....cant believe they havent done it already).

[AC Bill]

Well, when you guys that would rather build than drive want to sell your 818's just let me know.
I would like to build but just don't have the time and in the end the only reason I want to build is so I can drive it. ;)

Here's a replica for sale..lol

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2018-Replica-Kit-Makes-Batmobile-Carbon-Fiber-/282834228642

[BC Huselton]

It is all about taking the time to create what want. The 818 structure provides alot of options and there are amazing examples being built here. Enjoy the journey.

Here is the rendering of the front of my 818 I started in 2014...still carving it out. Getting Close. 81360

[TheBabyBadger]

I haven't even received my Type 65 kit yet... but I can already tell you MOST gear heads I know... we tend to bore. We work on the car to cure boredom, and when the build is complete... boredom returns. I'm building a Type 65 coupe to build... sell... and fund a GTM. PERIOD. It's probably the sexiest kit car I've EVER seen... and my 3 C5s (two Z06, one Z51) have been my MOST favorite cars... EVER. So that's my motivation in all this. I'm sure i will need a year or two before I WANT to build another FFR, judging from the this forum. But that's fine, too!

Order your kit man. Enjoy it. But remember it's a project... not a budget build!

Good luck man and keep us in the loop!

[phil1734]

... for some reason I feel like the car has not taken on the life that I thought it would while I was reading about the cars development. I was probably expecting too much, but I had hoped that it would catch on in the tuner world, be seen on covers of tuner magazines/websites, maybe even make its way on to an Xbox or playstation game..... It kind of seems like the car has fizzled and is need of some new development injection. It would be nice if there were more going on with the 818 at the factory, but it really seems to be languishing. Probably just my imagination.

I took mine to an autocross in Toledo this summer and was very surprised at the number of people (nearly all in the 25-35 age range and driving subarus) that knew what it was and were very interesting in trying it out for size as they had at some point put some thought into building one. The big thing that they all complained about was pulling the trigger on a $20k project at this stage in life without being able to see and poke around one in person.

In my opinion, FFR does an abysmal job of selling kits. They rely almost entirely on current builders and owners to be their sales people for them. It works well, but if they wanted to improve sales they should be at every Autorama and similar event around the country. If they sold just 1 or 2 kits at each show they'd probably re-coup their investment, and I imagine they'd sell a lot more than that. They could even "borrow" local builds to save on transportation/logistics costs and give some of the higher-end builders a free entry to show off their work.

Also, other than Wayne's attempt at the track day car challenge, they don't seem very interested in helping out the R guys. If they want to boast that they are selling "race cars" they should be more interested in showing results at Thunderhill and the lot.

[Jeff Kleiner]

...somehow I have convinced her, or possibly she convinced me with some mind trick, that we should buy land with enough space to build a large outbuilding garage workshop for me...

That's a good woman---like mine! A couple of years ago my wife pronounced "We need less house and you need more garage." Not being one to argue I built us a smaller 2,200 square foot house with 3 car attached garage and a separate 30x48 shop for me ;)

http://www.ffcars.com/photopost/data/500/Shop.JPG

Jeff

[erlihemi]

I took mine to an autocross in Toledo this summer and was very surprised at the number of people (nearly all in the 25-35 age range and driving subarus) that knew what it was and were very interesting in trying it out for size as they had at some point put some thought into building one. The big thing that they all complained about was pulling the trigger on a $20k project at this stage in life without being able to see and poke around one in person.

In my opinion, FFR does an abysmal job of selling kits. They rely almost entirely on current builders and owners to be their sales people for them. It works well, but if they wanted to improve sales they should be at every Autorama and similar event around the country. If they sold just 1 or 2 kits at each show they'd probably re-coup their investment, and I imagine they'd sell a lot more than that. They could even "borrow" local builds to save on transportation/logistics costs and give some of the higher-end builders a free entry to show off their work.

Also, other than Wayne's attempt at the track day car challenge, they don't seem very interested in helping out the R guys. If they want to boast that they are selling "race cars" they should be more interested in showing results at Thunderhill and the lot.

Well said Phil, I was at the build school when the first Subaru donor arrived and I predicted the 818 would change the customer base for FFR. I don't think it has, and much of that is for the reasons you mention. I almost built one, and almost bought a finished one, but, continue to procrastinate for a number of reasons. My daily driver happens to be an Impreza and my son has an older Impreza so a Donor build sits in his driveway, yet we like our "subbies" as is (AWD). When I showed up for my first auto cross with the Hot Rod we had lots of conversation about the 818. I even offered a bay in my garage to do a team build. The impression I got is most don't want to take on the effort required. Drivers often aren't always builders and people just don't have the time.
I have also mentioned on other posts that the "R" designator is misleading along with the company name. I stand by that statement. When you come out and change the car twice in the first couple years then it gives the community Beta caution. When you cant get a chassis certified its very frustrating. In some cases you have to run in the most competitive class due to the car weight, power, and tire size. This can intimidate a new driver.
Yes FFR should take a couple 818's and a Daytona to some driving schools and let people run them for sure. I would rather have a day at Watkins Glen with an 818R or a GenIII Daytona R than look at one in Syracuse. Sign the waiver and drive!

[phil1734]

I live 8 miles from the build school and was able to look at theirs before I committed. If that hadn't been an option to me I never would have bought in.

It's shocking to me that living in southeast Michigan where we have some of the largest hot-rod and antique car shows in the world (or so I'm told - I've never fact checked the brochures) the closest FFR event is Oshkosh WI. That's over 7 hours away.

[Jeff Kleiner]

It's shocking to me that living in southeast Michigan where we have some of the largest hot-rod and antique car shows in the world (or so I'm told - I've never fact checked the brochures) the closest FFR event is Oshkosh WI. That's over 7 hours away.

The London Show in Columbus Ohio is only 3-3 1/2 hours from you. Although it is not strictly FFR (nor is Oshkosh) they are definitely predominant.

Jeff

[phil1734]

Factory Five only brought Cobras to that show. No 818s, Hot Rods or GTMs. Though to be honest, I'm only assuming that they even bring anything else to Oshkosh or anywhere else, and the Forma guys did show up with their 818.

[turbomacncheese]

[QUOTE=Jeff Kleiner;314166]That's a good woman---like mine! A couple of years ago my wife pronounced "We need less house and you need more garage." Not being one to argue I built us a smaller 2,200 square foot house with 3 car attached garage and a separate 30x48 shop for me ;)
[/IMG]
uhhhh, jealous over here....

[Goldwing]

This post grabbed my attention as I’ve been contemplating selling my project as my health as just been too big a challenge to make any progress for the last two and a half years. My build page is a record of that. Adding a second child during that time made garage time merely a dream. It kind if stinks leaving the daily drivers outside in the cold when no progress is being made. In my case, the push to sell centers around uncontrollable life circumstances. Another MRI tomorrow to keep digging. I’m still chewing on the decision though. I came to the site for a little motivation to keep going. This post wasn’t exactly what I was hoping for, lol.

[shinn497]

My 818 is getting close to ready for inspection/registration and it has been a fun journey. That said, for some reason I feel like the car has not taken on the life that I thought it would while I was reading about the cars development. I was probably expecting too much, but I had hoped that it would catch on in the tuner world, be seen on covers of tuner magazines/websites, maybe even make its way on to an Xbox or playstation game..... It kind of seems like the car has fizzled and is need of some new development injection. It would be nice if there were more going on with the 818 at the factory, but it really seems to be languishing. Probably just my imagination.

I like my car, but there is a good chance I will try to sell it once there is nothing left for me to build on it. Unless the factory keeps releasing new improvements and upgrades that make it fun to keep......targa top kit? New aero kit? Updated rear end design? New engine option(s)? Interior kit (more OE like)? Better door design/implementation? Soft top/S windshield frame revision that works with power side windows (this is a must in my opinion....cant believe they havent done it already).

Funny I actually thought the opposite. I was apart of the tuner world for a bit and they just don't have the kind of mindset of someone that would do a full kit car. This is actually why I want one. I am banking on it being super rare.

[Canadian818]

This post grabbed my attention as I’ve been contemplating selling my project as my health as just been too big a challenge to make any progress for the last two and a half years. My build page is a record of that. Adding a second child during that time made garage time merely a dream. It kind if stinks leaving the daily drivers outside in the cold when no progress is being made. In my case, the push to sell centers around uncontrollable life circumstances. Another MRI tomorrow to keep digging. I’m still chewing on the decision though. I came to the site for a little motivation to keep going. This post wasn’t exactly what I was hoping for, lol.

Sorry to hear about the health issues Rich, hopefully this next MRI gives you answers. I too had a second child during the build which has been ongoing for over 4 years now. On 3 separate ocasions I’ve gone 6 months without touching the car, life gets busy and the car is never a priority. While it maybe time to re-evaluate, I hope you find some motivation instead.

I for one have no intentions of selling, as driving/Racing will be just as engaging and enjoyable as the build. But at the same time, my next two builds are already on the books. I’m just going to have to get a bigger garage in a couple of years.

[Mechie3]

Add me to the 2 kid during the build club. Ha! That and adding another race car and a box truck that needed some attention.

[mcamera]

Sorry to hear about your health issues Goldwing. I hope your tests go well. Health of course takes priority.


too big a challenge to make any progress for the last two and a half years.


during the build which has been ongoing for over 4 years now. On 3 separate ocasions I’ve gone 6 months without touching the car

These are the kind of comments that scare me. It seems like a fair amount of people put a lot of time, money, and effort into building the car and never actually get to see the finished product and enjoy the car.

On the other hand, the threads where I see people complete the car and try to race it, appear to have a lot of issues. Half the reason I wanted to build an 818 was to have a capable track weapon that I could take out a few times per year, but I'm starting to doubt that this is a good car for that without spending 2x what I want to. I think I need to reevaluate how badly I want a unique sports car vs an actual track car.

In good news, I'm going to the Forma car shop tonight to see their 818S since I've never seen one! I'm excited to meet the guys and pick their brains.

[Larry J W]

Here are a few of additional thoughts on why people are selling their 818. Many people think their kit car would make a good daily driver. That is not the case. Having a MK2 cobra for 12 years and now driving an 818 for 2 years, one quickly discovers they are a fun weekend car. They are hard to get in and out of, no place to lock up much, you worry about them in the parking lot, you are constantly being ask if it is real or what is it, it is too hot in the summer, too cold in the winter, and the list goes on! Basically they are a fun car to go for weekend rides and various car shows. They are toy that you have a minimum of 20K wrapped up in. If you are satisfied with that and feel good about the accomplishment of building a neat car it is good choice.

I am also careful about when I drive the 818. There is enough performance one needs to be focused, and not distracted with life in general. It is not a car to go out and blow off steam! I am not there every day.
As for people not finishing their cars there are a lot of reasons. You should plan on dedicating most of a year to build it. It takes discipline to push through the problems. You WILL have problems but that is where the forum is very important. Having an attitude of ” there is too much invested in this project to let it sit” is critical Many people create their own problems by going for the best of everything or deviating for the original design. A simple change can cause untold problems down the road. You have to be constantly thinking 3 to 4 steps ahead. With the best of everything very quickly you find you budget doubles! Most components were designed for a much heavier vehicle.

I do feel FFR has failed to support the 818 in the racing scene. The reason the Cobra has such good resale valve is it’s racing heritage.

My final advice is if you build a car plan on driving and enjoying for yourself. It you sell it plan on losing money. I was fortunate with the MK2, I watch my budget during the build, enjoyed it for 12 years, and broke even when I sold it.

Larry

[shinn497]

If you think about it. Losing money on a car sale is pretty much to be expected on every type of car. Cars go down in value. The only exception is when emotion is attached to them. I personally love the 818 and think it is super cool. But it isn't attached to anything. If it had better branding and was marketed a bit better, than I could see it being so. The car has a lot of potential.

You also have to think that it could just be that the people that are buying 818s are not posting here in the forums. It is hard to know really.

[AZPete]

Hey guys, you are forgetting that a lot of us will sell our 818 for the same reason a lot guys sell their Roadster, Hot Rod, GTM or Coupe:

We love building and want to start another kit!

[DMC7492]

I stopped and picked up more sandpaper and some filler at the boat shop a guy says what are you working on and the owner starts telling him my story! Hey when will it be done he says? I proclaimed not this summer but maybe next year the guy says wow what a great attitude!
This is a project and a journey. For many the life changes attitude and unforeseen circumstances pop up! My last project took 13 years from test flight to solo! Many great days but more not so great days and thoughts of sellling! But press on and enjoyed the hell out of it!!! More projects get started than finished so the sooner it's finished the better!
I guess that if more life changes happen the chances of finishing and enjoying are less also! So get it done and enjoy!!
But mostly enjoy the journey!!

[Mechie3]

Here are my thoughts on why people sell. No real data to back it up, just my best guesses based on what I've seen and experienced.

1: Cost. FFR touts the $10k kit price and $15k finished price. In general I've seen more interest from a younger demographic, mostly the Subaru/tuner crowd. They tend to be on the younger side, statistically they earn less money, have less saved up, and have higher expenses (daycare anyone?) than someone interested in a Cobra. The $15k number sounds fantastic. A porsche for the cost of a rather decent used car (see reason #2). You quickly realize that a $15k 818 looks worse than a $15k used car. No one wants that. Add in wheels (that don't look like they're sucked into the car), seats (that don't put your head above the rollbar), new seals and bearings (since you'll likely have to replace them eventually), new brakes and rotors, powdercoat for the myriad of bare aluminum parts, and any other things like paint (see #3) that make the car your dream car and you're easily approaching mid $20k's or low $30k's. That's almost double what someone signed up for. $30k almost buys you a brand new STI. Sure, it isn't as fast, but it's more usable (see #4).

2: I think a lot of people thought they were getting a Porsche (or insert other luxury marque) for the cost of a 5 year old Camry. The pics in magazines look good. The high profile builds look good. Their build doesn't. Up close you can see the rough edges and the out of the box fit and finish isn't OEM level. It takes a lot of work (time and/or money) to get it there. This makes a builder feel disenfranchised. We've all seen ricers with chipped and cracked body kits. No one wants their dream car to be on that level.

3: Paint. We were sold a paint free kit. I can bolt things together, machine things, and fabricate lots of stuff. Bodywork is out of my wheel house. I've never done it. Doesn't mean I won't try, but the idea of "buy it, bolt it, drive it" became "buy it, bolt it, fix it, bolt it, body work, paint". I've seen a lot of builds stall out on the body work portion. Wayne has built a lot of great looking cars, but he farms out the body and paint. I recall he said he spent $6k on the body and paint for his first orange one. Add to that the body fitment is so-so (fenders 1/2" difference in length anyone?).

4: Usability. This was mentioned before. I have two small race cars (F500, F600) that I only drive for an hour or so a year. They're only race cars and they were rather inexpensive (I have about $6k tied up in each). $6k doesn't buy you anything faster or nicer so it's easy to justify. $30k buys you some really nice and rather quick new cars. It also buys you some nice and even faster used cars. They won't be as fast, but they'll be rain tight, have heat and AC, a radio, a roof, windshield wipers, known levels of safety and crash worthiness, probably more than 2 seats, and daily driveability. My old WRX was super stiff, had no AC, and was built to be a street legal race car. People that thought their car was stiff would complain about mine. but I loved it. Not everyone does. The less it gets used the harder it is to justify having spent $30k.

5: Demographic. Aside from cost and usability, the demographic I've seen most attracted to this car has two other things stacked against it: 1, young family age and 2, tuner culture. I had zero kids when I started this project. I worked on it all the time. I now have two kids and a business I didn't before and my build time is much more rare. I know of at least 5 other people that started with zero kids and now have one or more. This also feeds into the usability. I can't drive my car (when it's done) unless I know the weather will be good AND I don't need to pick up or drop off at daycare. Double whammy. With the tuner culture (which also fits the younger car demographic) I've seen less deep car knowledge and fabrication skills and more general knowledge and general hand tool (bolt on) skills. Most WRX/STI owners will bolt on an intake and an exhaust and call it a day. Some are more adventurous and do bushings, maybe suspension. That's it. Once the 818 ventured beyond "bolt on" (see #6) it became daunting.

6: Skills required: I've had several people come look at my kit. It seems 50/50 who builds one. More of the older generation went ahead and built one. The younger generation all said "I'm glad I saw this first" and didn't build on. Many didn't have the tools or skills required to go beyond basic bolt it together builds. Fixing the things that don't quite fit right and doing body work turned off a lot of people prior to getting one. I only imagine lots of the unfinished builds for sale are in the same category.


That said....I'm keeping mine. I haven't worked on it more than an hour or two since my son was born 17 months ago. Doesn't help I picked up a box truck, the F600, I rebuilt my backyard pergola, and business picked up in the same time frame. I've accepted it won't be the same quality as an OEM and that it will need bodywork (which will be slow going). I paid cash for everything and I'm not hurting for money so that doesn't really factor into a decision to keep or sell. The kids will be older some day and I won't have to drop off for daycare. I have access to a full machine shop and can fix and modify anything I need to, so that doesn't turn me off either. To be fair though, if I had dropped the car off for bodywork 2 years ago I'd be done. It's about the only thing holding me up now.

[wallace18]

Hey guys, you are forgetting that a lot of us will sell our 818 for the same reason a lot guys sell their Roadster, Hot Rod, GTM or Coupe:

We love building and want to start another kit!

What he said, LOL.

[lance corsi]

I agree with Mechie3, but I'm not in your age category. By making parts for other people, you are prolonging your own build. There are tons of needs for correcting shortcomings of this kit. Opportunities some would say. The irony is that by the time one acquires the skill set to build one of these cars properly, he is almost too old to enjoy it's capabilities.

[jcpresto]

I imagine that the age group that finds this car attractive thinks it’s like rolling down the road in a corvette or mustang off the show room floor. I am 37, I have had 15 different toy cars in life that I have always upgraded. I went down this path to get a factory five for something unique and different and a blast drive. I would tell anyone interested to look at one first hand, and if OEM amenities is what your after than I would look else where. While I approached this with a budget, I ended up doubling mine in the end and it is not perfect. But I love it and will enjoy it for years to come. It has heat, A/C, full radio and even a sub! But it is not for everyone, all of my friend have a viper, Porsche, Z06 vette, or that nature and they all love the care, but have no patience to go through it. 82826

[Mechie3]

By making parts for other people, you are prolonging your own build. There are tons of needs for correcting shortcomings of this kit. Opportunities some would say.

That is certainly a huge factor. Many nights I have to choose between working on the 818/F600 or finishing up parts and packing them up.

[Mitch Wright]

I guess I don’t quite fit target demographic (63) other than being a car guy. In my case experience allowed for realistic expectations for the car I wanted to build.
The end result is a fun fast track car toy.

[lance corsi]

Mitch, I too am 63. Hoping to have some major fun with my car! Only problem(possible) I can see would be ingress & egress. Once inside, mine fits like a glove, it's just the ins & outs that give me problems. Bad back for over 30 yrs, but I've learned to live with it. Hope the whip doesn't aggravate it.

[TDSapp]

Next round will have to be much more affordable, though. Like an 80s semi-restoration.



Gee Turbo, I figured that a Semi would be more expensive to restore than a kit car. :-)


I am building a Hot Rod and don't foresee selling it any time soon, more like leave it to my kids to fight over. But owning a Street Rod is more of a dream of mine since being a kid going to car shows with my dad. I went the kit route because honestly the old cars are not the best handling or the best car technology out there. Talk to anyone driving an original 57 Chevy (Another dream car) and most will tell you it drive like a tank. I would rather have the newer technology in handling, brakes and etc than a metal dual frame rail classic.

So with that said, I can see where the 818 might be sold if it is not meeting up to be the dream car they always thought of.

The 818 is the last car in the FFR line up because it just does not ring my bells. If I had a choice it would be in this order... Hot Rod, GTM, Type 65, Roadster, Hot Rod Truck and then the 818. I guess I am not just in the tuner\ricer age group.

[Mechie3]

I guess I don’t quite fit target demographic (63) other than being a car guy. In my case experience allowed for realistic expectations for the car I wanted to build.
The end result is a fun fast track car toy.

It's also why you haven't sold. ;)

[flynntuna]

Gee Turbo, I figured that a Semi would be more expensive to restore than a kit car. :-)


I am building a Hot Rod and don't foresee selling it any time soon, more like leave it to my kids to fight over. But owning a Street Rod is more of a dream of mine since being a kid going to car shows with my dad. I went the kit route because honestly the old cars are not the best handling or the best car technology out there. Talk to anyone driving an original 57 Chevy (Another dream car) and most will tell you it drive like a tank. I would rather have the newer technology in handling, brakes and etc than a metal dual frame rail classic.

So with that said, I can see where the 818 might be sold if it is not meeting up to be the dream car they always thought of.

The 818 is the last car in the FFR line up because it just does not ring my bells. If I had a choice it would be in this order... Hot Rod, GTM, Type 65, Roadster, Hot Rod Truck and then the 818. I guess I am not just in the tuner\ricer age group.

Unlike you the 818 is on the top of my list in the FFR lineup. I'm probably the furthest from being a Tuner/ricer age group at 62. That can't be right, I feel like I'm in my thirties (if you ask my wife she'll say I act like I'm 10:rolleyes:) though when I look in the mirror, I some times think " who the .... Is that" ! Anyway tangent aside, the 818's a midengine , affordable emissions exempt (at least in ca with the sb100 law) canyon carver, checks all my boxes.
The only reason I'd sell is if someone made an offer I couldn't refuse. Or if FFR's gen3 type 65 coupes rebody comes out and steals my heart.

[lance corsi]

I'm going to strap a wrench to my foot & tighten a bolt on my car! Hand built cars are one thing, but foot built cars are so so special!

[aquillen]

Ok, I'll play too, since the threads seems popular. I'm 68 and loving this kit. I expected it to have rough edges, for a lot of reasons, but realistically because it is a kit that relies on parts from low cost used "other cars". And then there is marketing of the product and if you never heard this "marketing requires the nerve to 'make claims'". Sometimes claims are in the eye of the deliverer... But hey I'm not really hitting on FFR - I like the kit, the people and their attitude.

I also like to modify. I buy new stuff, a stereo, a computer, a telescope, a gun, you name it and within a few days the warranty is void. Not much around our house doesn't have my fingerprints INSIDE it. So any kit car is tailor made for me and the more it needs probably the happier I am. I've contemplated doing a car from the ground up - make the body buck, do the fiberglass, weld a chassis and on and on. But I have other hobbies and demands on my time, and not an unlimited budget, so this is the right fit.

I started drooling over kit cars as soon as I could read a magazine. The Bradley's, Sebring, Sterling, untold Italian "kits" on stretched Fiero's and so on. Life and family always had more important plans. So for speed we either had a used Corvette, Trans-Am, Camaro, etc., and of course some motorcycle to fiddle with. Still run around on my Hayabusa and no plans to give it up anytime soon.

For the reader thinking about getting one of these and why if "so many" are not keeping them? My thinking is - if you have some skills but wonder if enough - well this is a great way to get new skills. Want something that you can get hot on, then let it sit, come back later. Yes. Enjoy figuring out mechanical, electrical problems? Yes. Want to have your name on it when you get it rolling? Yes.

Have a problem sticking with projects until they are done? No. Have a lot of pulls on your time especially as well as money? No. Don't have approval or backing from your better half? Bad idea. Easily drawn to the latest new design on the street - this one will fade in luster before done? No.

And the other comments all above, well they are doing a great job of explaining how to think this through as well. Thanks all - especially if you are building and sharing what you are doing with your project.

[cnutting]

In my humble opinion, these types of projects track with the technology "hype curve":

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=82011&d=1520187967

I have been back and forth on this curve many times with my 289. Finally getting there, but it's taken some perseverance to get through the trough of disillusionment.

[redbudrr]

Art Quillen,
I could not have put it any better. Your comments fit my very similar situation, even though I am 5 years older than you are!! Ha!
It's a great project, I am learning every day, and the challenge is real.

[Pearldrummer7]

Here are my thoughts on why people sell. No real data to back it up, just my best guesses based on what I've seen and experienced.

1: Cost. FFR touts the $10k kit price and $15k finished price. In general I've seen more interest from a younger demographic, mostly the Subaru/tuner crowd. They tend to be on the younger side, statistically they earn less money, have less saved up, and have higher expenses (daycare anyone?) than someone interested in a Cobra. The $15k number sounds fantastic. A porsche for the cost of a rather decent used car (see reason #2). You quickly realize that a $15k 818 looks worse than a $15k used car. No one wants that. Add in wheels (that don't look like they're sucked into the car), seats (that don't put your head above the rollbar), new seals and bearings (since you'll likely have to replace them eventually), new brakes and rotors, powdercoat for the myriad of bare aluminum parts, and any other things like paint (see #3) that make the car your dream car and you're easily approaching mid $20k's or low $30k's. That's almost double what someone signed up for. $30k almost buys you a brand new STI. Sure, it isn't as fast, but it's more usable (see #4).

2: I think a lot of people thought they were getting a Porsche (or insert other luxury marque) for the cost of a 5 year old Camry. The pics in magazines look good. The high profile builds look good. Their build doesn't. Up close you can see the rough edges and the out of the box fit and finish isn't OEM level. It takes a lot of work (time and/or money) to get it there. This makes a builder feel disenfranchised. We've all seen ricers with chipped and cracked body kits. No one wants their dream car to be on that level.

3: Paint. We were sold a paint free kit. I can bolt things together, machine things, and fabricate lots of stuff. Bodywork is out of my wheel house. I've never done it. Doesn't mean I won't try, but the idea of "buy it, bolt it, drive it" became "buy it, bolt it, fix it, bolt it, body work, paint". I've seen a lot of builds stall out on the body work portion. Wayne has built a lot of great looking cars, but he farms out the body and paint. I recall he said he spent $6k on the body and paint for his first orange one. Add to that the body fitment is so-so (fenders 1/2" difference in length anyone?).

4: Usability. This was mentioned before. I have two small race cars (F500, F600) that I only drive for an hour or so a year. They're only race cars and they were rather inexpensive (I have about $6k tied up in each). $6k doesn't buy you anything faster or nicer so it's easy to justify. $30k buys you some really nice and rather quick new cars. It also buys you some nice and even faster used cars. They won't be as fast, but they'll be rain tight, have heat and AC, a radio, a roof, windshield wipers, known levels of safety and crash worthiness, probably more than 2 seats, and daily driveability. My old WRX was super stiff, had no AC, and was built to be a street legal race car. People that thought their car was stiff would complain about mine. but I loved it. Not everyone does. The less it gets used the harder it is to justify having spent $30k.

5: Demographic. Aside from cost and usability, the demographic I've seen most attracted to this car has two other things stacked against it: 1, young family age and 2, tuner culture. I had zero kids when I started this project. I worked on it all the time. I now have two kids and a business I didn't before and my build time is much more rare. I know of at least 5 other people that started with zero kids and now have one or more. This also feeds into the usability. I can't drive my car (when it's done) unless I know the weather will be good AND I don't need to pick up or drop off at daycare. Double whammy. With the tuner culture (which also fits the younger car demographic) I've seen less deep car knowledge and fabrication skills and more general knowledge and general hand tool (bolt on) skills. Most WRX/STI owners will bolt on an intake and an exhaust and call it a day. Some are more adventurous and do bushings, maybe suspension. That's it. Once the 818 ventured beyond "bolt on" (see #6) it became daunting.

6: Skills required: I've had several people come look at my kit. It seems 50/50 who builds one. More of the older generation went ahead and built one. The younger generation all said "I'm glad I saw this first" and didn't build on. Many didn't have the tools or skills required to go beyond basic bolt it together builds. Fixing the things that don't quite fit right and doing body work turned off a lot of people prior to getting one. I only imagine lots of the unfinished builds for sale are in the same category.


That said....I'm keeping mine. I haven't worked on it more than an hour or two since my son was born 17 months ago. Doesn't help I picked up a box truck, the F600, I rebuilt my backyard pergola, and business picked up in the same time frame. I've accepted it won't be the same quality as an OEM and that it will need bodywork (which will be slow going). I paid cash for everything and I'm not hurting for money so that doesn't really factor into a decision to keep or sell. The kids will be older some day and I won't have to drop off for daycare. I have access to a full machine shop and can fix and modify anything I need to, so that doesn't turn me off either. To be fair though, if I had dropped the car off for bodywork 2 years ago I'd be done. It's about the only thing holding me up now.

Dude, THIS is a fantastic set of reasoning in this thread. I love my 818, but have been tempted to sell it (live in a city where it's $$$ to have a garage, bike track costs are much lower than car (tire, gas, transport, storage, etc.), and man could I use even the low cost I could get for mine). I mean, for the cost of what I built it for I could've had a basically good to go '05 Elise, or a few track bikes with a Miata on the side. The build was fantastic for my knowledge and skills (and tool set) but the finished result left me the tiniest bit disappointed. That said, I will be keeping it as it'll always have emotional value to me.

[mcamera]

I just wanted to chime in and say thanks for all the honest replies. It's helpful to see everybody's reviews and opinions.

I fall in the group that wants a project. I spend 9 hours/day staring at a computer for work and then when I get home I make dinner and stare at the tv for 3 hours before bed which drives me crazy. I would much rather have something constructive to do. Living in an apartment, I don't have a garage and it's dark by the time I finish dinner so I can't work outside on weeknights. I can only do car work on the weekends. Unless it's December-March then it's too cold/wet in my parking lot. I'm really excited to have a garage again in 2 months to work when I feel like it. It even comes with a house!

I've come to terms that this car may cost me $30k, but I don't think I could justify much over that personally. There are a lot of other cars you could have for that money but just buying one still seems boring in my opinion. I'd rather work on something unique than just stare at another pretty car sitting in my garage (although I intend to get to that point eventually).

I've adjusted my goals after doing some more research and hearing all of your feedback. I'd be happy if I could run a couple track days or auto crosses per year on a stock engine/tune with street tires. Hopefully that wouldn't be too demanding on a mainly street car. I'd still plan on getting an accusump and some good ducting though to help with the oiling/cooling issues everybody talks about. Other less critical items that I'd like to replace for aesthetics would be the shifter, seats, rims/tires, mirrors, and steering wheel. Paint is negotiable. I think I could live with a fairly basic build if that means less issues when it's finished. I'd rather enjoy a simple car than constantly fix the "ultimate" car.

I followed that logic when I supercharged my previous RSX and it was very good to me for the 6 years I had it. It was extremely low maintenance which I loved. Sure I only had 300hp, but all the guys that put turbos on them would push 400-500whp and break shafts, strip gears, leak oil, melt nearby parts, complain about traction (it's still a FWD car!), etc. They were always fixing the newest weak link. Meanwhile, I drove mine for 80k miles on the factory trans, clutch, and engine :)

Mike

[turbomacncheese]

Gee Turbo, I figured that a Semi would be more expensive to restore than a kit car. :-)


Ha!


I'm going to strap a wrench to my foot & tighten a bolt on my car! Hand built cars are one thing, but foot built cars are so so special!

Ha, twice!


I also like to modify. I buy new stuff, a stereo, a computer, a telescope, a gun, you name it and within a few days the warranty is void. Not much around our house doesn't have my fingerprints INSIDE it.

Sounds like a lot of us, here.


I'm really excited to have a garage again in 2 months to work when I feel like it. It even comes with a house!

That sure is a good feeling! I moved from a house I owned to a house I rented to a house with no garage to an apartment back to a house with a garage. It's bad enough to not have one, but to not have one after HAVING one, and then getting one again....
When we bought the house I'm in now, the wife wanted my thoughts and opinions on layouts, bedrooms, bathrooms, etc. Didn't even care. Just give me a garage I can USE.

[shinn497]

I just wanted to chime in and say thanks for all the honest replies. It's helpful to see everybody's reviews and opinions.

I fall in the group that wants a project. I spend 9 hours/day staring at a computer for work and then when I get home I make dinner and stare at the tv for 3 hours before bed which drives me crazy. I would much rather have something constructive to do. Living in an apartment, I don't have a garage and it's dark by the time I finish dinner so I can't work outside on weeknights. I can only do car work on the weekends. Unless it's December-March then it's too cold/wet in my parking lot. I'm really excited to have a garage again in 2 months to work when I feel like it. It even comes with a house!

I've come to terms that this car may cost me $30k, but I don't think I could justify much over that personally. There are a lot of other cars you could have for that money but just buying one still seems boring in my opinion. I'd rather work on something unique than just stare at another pretty car sitting in my garage (although I intend to get to that point eventually).

I've adjusted my goals after doing some more research and hearing all of your feedback. I'd be happy if I could run a couple track days or auto crosses per year on a stock engine/tune with street tires. Hopefully that wouldn't be too demanding on a mainly street car. I'd still plan on getting an accusump and some good ducting though to help with the oiling/cooling issues everybody talks about. Other less critical items that I'd like to replace for aesthetics would be the shifter, seats, rims/tires, mirrors, and steering wheel. Paint is negotiable. I think I could live with a fairly basic build if that means less issues when it's finished. I'd rather enjoy a simple car than constantly fix the "ultimate" car.

I followed that logic when I supercharged my previous RSX and it was very good to me for the 6 years I had it. It was extremely low maintenance which I loved. Sure I only had 300hp, but all the guys that put turbos on them would push 400-500whp and break shafts, strip gears, leak oil, melt nearby parts, complain about traction (it's still a FWD car!), etc. They were always fixing the newest weak link. Meanwhile, I drove mine for 80k miles on the factory trans, clutch, and engine :)

Mike

Wait I'm lost are you buying a house? My main blocker for building this is I don't have a garage and I am still figuring out how to get one.

[mcamera]

Wait I'm lost are you buying a house? My main blocker for building this is I don't have a garage and I am still figuring out how to get one.

Yeah I'm in the middle of building a house. It'll be ready in 2 months. Same as you, I've been without a garage for the last few years which ruled out building an 818.

[TouchStone]

I'm one of those that sold within a year of finishing. Perhaps my situation is unique than most, so I’ll share. I was 26 and single when I started the build, still single btw. Also recently moved out of my parent’s house which gave me my own two car garage. I was never part of the tuner crowd and honestly, I didn’t really care that much about cars. Sure, I liked go-karts at theme parks and computer racing games but if you asked me what I thought about the ’69 Toyota 2000GT or the Boss 429 I’d just shrug my shoulders. My real inspiration came partially from a lack of meaningful personal projects, a disgust with auto repair shops and my lack of understanding of how cars works. My daily driver at the time an ’06 Ford Focus displayed the battery warning light for five years straight. Auto mechanics replaced the alternator and battery 3 times $600 each time. Only for it to fail again just outside of warranty.

So, I had the motivation, the space and just enough money to get started. My goal was around 20K, but budgeted 23K just to be safe. Thinking about it now eh maybe this could have been attainable had everything gone right. No engine rebuild; better choices regarding the donor; less mistakes and NO project creep then maybe 20-23K was possible. At the very least I was under no assumption that this could be done with the advertised 15K. Well by the time it was done there was about 35K put into it way above my original budget this doesn’t even include all the necessary tools, remember I started this with nothing, well did have a hammer and a screwdriver.

Near the end of the build my mentality changed drastically after I first go-karted it. Realizing how much money and effort I was putting on public roads combined with my lack of driving experience (I learned to drive standard with this car) and insane power of the car had me a bit worried. This is when I started looking into performance driving and how to learn it. Seeing other members take their 818 to autocrosses inspired me to do the same. Thanks Andrew & Tamra! Now I have another expensive hobby. Autocross led to HPDE and track days. Since budget tracking (driving your track car to and from the track) an 818 is not my idea of risky fun I decided to sell it to make room for Spec Miata build. Also picked up a truck and trailer to get it to and from the track. I still get to work on cars but now I get to push them to the limit as well.

I loved building the 818 and wouldn’t trade the experience for anything else. If the kit was as simple as building with Lego, I would have been sorely disappointed. I had fun and learned what I wanted and the 818 platform was a great way to do it. I have a blast driving on track and now I can build race cars myself instead of outsourcing all the work.

I did make sure to get professional photos taken and ordered some awesome aluminum prints of the car for memory sake.

[shinn497]

Yeah I'm in the middle of building a house. It'll be ready in 2 months. Same as you, I've been without a garage for the last few years which ruled out building an 818.

Who says not owning a house means you can't build an 818??? I mean I have no idea how I'll have space to build one but I'll find a way!

So my situation has changed so much when I first got into the car. At first it was a pipe dream. Now I'm employed and making a decent salary so it might happen. There have been some hiccups along the path. Last may I got inspiried by dave ramsey to never live with debt and I also am planning for the tokyo olympics. Being 31 and planning for retirement has also meant saving is harder but most certainly not impossible.

Realistically speaking, I won't have a window to build one until after 2020 but Ionno. I know this will happen. I believe it in my bones. Honestly it has been a big motivator for me to work harder at just everything.

As for my reasoning. I've drivin high powered cars before and I couldn't get enough. I'm super into the tuner scene. But I want something real. Something unique. The 818 fits all my requirements. Light, rmr longitudanal engine, manual, and japanese heart. I couldn't imagine myself in anything else. Maybe it happens maybe it doesn't but I'll shoot for the moon with this one!

[metros]

The main ideas have already been presented here.

I did have to chuckle when OP mentioned that builders should just stick to the original plan/manual instead of prolonging the build and increasing the costs. When you see the 'plan' provided, you won't follow it either. There are aspects of this plan that are laughable. I recommend you go visit the closest builder to get an up close look at everything.

[mcamera]

The main ideas have already been presented here.

I did have to chuckle when OP mentioned that builders should just stick to the original plan/manual instead of prolonging the build and increasing the costs. When you see the 'plan' provided, you won't follow it either. There are aspects of this plan that are laughable. I recommend you go visit the closest builder to get an up close look at everything.

Hey Metros, I hope I didn't give the impression that I think everybody should just stick to the manual! I've really enjoyed seeing what other builders have come up with and we wouldn't see that if everybody stuck to the book! I had to double check what I wrote lol.

"I've enjoyed seeing what the community has come up with, but personally I would stick closer to the book to keep time/costs down. While focusing on the quality of my work rather than doubling it and spreading myself thin. I feel like a lot of builders created their own issues and drove costs up when they ventured too far off the path."

My personal plan is to stick closer to the book, but maybe I'm underestimating how bad the book is. For example I would reuse the entire stock wiring harness. That's $2,000 (iWire) and/or 100 hours (dieting/building your own) saved right there. I'm not too worried about the extra 30 lbs it adds because it's a huge cost/time/headache saver. I'd also stick with a stock engine, but possibly get it rebuilt rather than build it up. Knowing that striving for more power needs bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, bigger turbo, intercooler upgrades, tuning, an oil cooler, radiator upgrade, bigger brakes, etc. It's a slippery slope that I'd like to avoid in search of simplicity. Building an entire car will be enough of a challenge for me!

I did stop at Forma to check out their 818S and they pointed out several areas that they modified or were unhappy with straight out of the box. The sloppy shifter, unsealed frunk area that collects rocks, odd gaps behind the seatbelts, odd gaps at the base of the a-pillar (coupe only), skinny FFR driveshafts, and body prep were some big things they mentioned. Forma's got some great guys working for them and it helped to see an 818 in person to get a more realistic perspective.


Happy Easter!

[lance corsi]

You will find out that the door striker loops are too shallow, that the Subaru thermostat setup is not compatible with the added system dynamics, that the stock water pump wasn't designed to circulate water through the added system, the shock absorbers are difficult to work with, the bodywork isn't without some pretty good flaws, that the side windows for the coupe don't work properly, that the engine tilts the wrong direction, contributing to oiling issues, or that the shifter is vague at best, or that you will need actual bumpers to pass dot scrutiny in some states, along with a front license plate holder. These are just a few problems you will have to navigate if you plan on sticking to the manual! These are reasons why most ppl don't adhere to the manual closely. There are other pitfalls too like dropping in a high mileage engine and having future problems with that.
To be sure, these are issues, but also present opportunities to learn and improve upon the standard. It's all about how you look at it! Don't be afraid to think for yourself!

[AZPete]

Lance, I genuinely admire your mods and workmanship, but I have not encountered most of these problems. I don't exactly follow the manual and agree with your advice: "Don't be afraid to think for yourself". In fact, after building 2 FFR cars, I think it's fun to think through everything for the best way. If I had your skills, I'd make more changes, but here's what I found:

My door striker loops work fine with the donor door hinges and latches.
My donor thermostat seems to work fine after 4,000 miles, though I'm running heater lines to a front-mounted HVAC.
My donor water pump seems to circulate coolant through the system, including the HVAC, and temp gauge stays constant even at 115 degrees ambient in traffic.
I had trouble putting the sleeves on the shocks until I heated the sleeves.
The side windows on my coupe go fully up and down, and seal okay, though it took a lot of time to get right.
I don't know about the FFR shifter because I bought the K-tuned shifter from VCP.
For tilted tranny I've remarked the dip stick and no problem so far.
Yes, the body has some problems but FFR has extended the A pillar on newer kits, and perhaps making other running changes.
Arizona does not require bumper or front plates, so no problem with that.

Again, I admire your work, but maybe some of the problems you detailed, like the tranny and cooling, occur when racing, whereas my 818C is purely a street car with only 4,000 miles so far.

[mcamera]

You will find out that the door striker loops are too shallow, that the Subaru thermostat setup is not compatible with the added system dynamics, that the stock water pump wasn't designed to circulate water through the added system, the shock absorbers are difficult to work with, the bodywork isn't without some pretty good flaws, that the side windows for the coupe don't work properly, that the engine tilts the wrong direction, contributing to oiling issues, or that the shifter is vague at best, or that you will need actual bumpers to pass dot scrutiny in some states, along with a front license plate holder. These are just a few problems you will have to navigate if you plan on sticking to the manual! These are reasons why most ppl don't adhere to the manual closely. There are other pitfalls too like dropping in a high mileage engine and having future problems with that.
To be sure, these are issues, but also present opportunities to learn and improve upon the standard. It's all about how you look at it! Don't be afraid to think for yourself!

Lance,
After reading your and Pete's comments it sounds like there can be a lot of variation on these issues. I get your point though. There will be issues that need to be solved even if I follow the basic plans. I'm ok with that. I'm just trying to avoid adding to that list by my own hand. How many miles did you put on your car before you realized there were cooling/oil issues?

I will need to add bumper reinforcements since I'm also in Ohio. That's a necessary evil. I'll use that as an excuse to learn how to weld. Making a license plate bracket doesn't sound difficult, but maybe I could just put the license plate in the front window like many Ohio cars do. After inspection I won't run a front plate anyways for aesthetics. I've never run one in the 13 years I've been driving in Ohio. Oh, I'll also need to add a wiper to be street legal. I liked Bob's marine wiper solution so I'll probably copy that.

[BrandonDrums]

I'll add that the other FFR cars have the same shortcomings in terms of how much more effort and money you need to put in to get the car reliable, refined and looking great. But far more builders are willing to do that with a classic replica design regardless of how the car is to drive in the end. On many levels, a 33' hotrod and '65 coupe are show cars that look and sound great and make you feel like a celebrity for driving it.

It's also worth pointing out that many of the folks who build a replicar kit are already into restoring old classic cars and working with clean, new parts is comparatively a very nice, welcome experience.

For the 818, much of the demographic are used to modding newer cars, like Imprezas and aren't used to having to completely strip down a car and start from scratch. Plus, they are buying the car purely for how it will end up driving, the looks are mostly secondary. Even if the 818's design was universially accepted as wonderful and better than any other small mid-engined car, you gotta explain what it is and if it's not really buttoned up, can be disappointing like a bad body kid (that has been pointed out on this thread).

Factory Five has had 3 fully original car designs through their history: They had a Spyder GT which was an all original take on a '65 mix between the classic Ferrari GT cars of the 60's, perhaps corvette stingray etc. They had to pull the plug on that. They have the GTM which being a high-end kit is a bit more profitable and the 818 which gets strong sales because of the drivetrain but I think is seeing some challenges keeping sales up right now but the long-term plans for the kit I think will fix that (being more of a multi-drivetrain platform and not so reliant on subaru-only).

IMO, if Factory Five doubled down on the engineering and built a catalog with parts that fix all the known issues in a one-stop shop things would be better. You should be able to spec out a full build top to bottom with fully tested and proven parts to address each short coming within reason.

i.e. if you want a track-worthy 350hp + subaru build with power steering and HVAC they should recommend and sell you a dry sump oiling system, proper intercooler and engine cooling setup with plug and play booster pumps that mount directly to pre-fabbed sections of the frame, an upgraded ring and pinion gear for the 5mt, a plug and play HVAC system that mounts directly in the dash without modification and the proper seats and racing harness....

Make their stuff a kit and less of a fabrication project. They can certainly do more business development to farm out those parts and do more consultation on the sales end.

That being said, they do a great job for the goals they laid out. They never set out to make anything other than a platform for people to do their own projects with. I think more people just want something closer to a finished product they get to put together themselves.

[turbomacncheese]

...Make their stuff a kit and less of a fabrication project. They can certainly do more business development to farm out those parts and do more consultation on the sales end.

That being said, they do a great job for the goals they laid out. They never set out to make anything other than a platform for people to do their own projects with. I think more people just want something closer to a finished product they get to put together themselves.

So much this. I think I was a lucky one that found this forum AND got to visit with AZPete before committing to build an 818. Looking at the website, the informational package, the videos I could find on YouTube...I had the impression that this was a "kit" (as you use the term) where the customer has to supply some of the parts.

Others have said that, as sold, the 818 is great for ripping around a track but don't hope to impress your friends with how it looks drive it every day for the price you're expecting. I've developed a lot more respect for the guys (both at FFR and right here on the forum) that look at a "problem" with the 818 and develop a solution from start to finish. I think I spent an entire weekend figuring out how I wanted to make brackets to mount my aftermarket seats. Granted, I wanted it to be right the first time with no thrown-out parts (for the budget's sake), and I did and I'm happy with them. My point is that I can see exactly how easy it is to get frustrated after seeing how easy some of you guys make it look.

For the record, I'm driving a Hyundai right now that just turned over 160k miles. Not super comfortable, but good at being my commuter car. I intend to drive the 818 until it don't drive no mo!

[phil1734]

...they do a great job for the goals they laid out. They never set out to make anything other than a platform for people to do their own projects with. I think more people just want something closer to a finished product they get to put together themselves.

If that was their goal then they hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately that's not the way the advertise. Everything is sold as requiring a kit, a single donor, paint, wheels and tires (paint, wheels and tires optional dependent on model and ambition.)

Yet never have I ever seen a single FFR advertisement online, in print, or on a Powerblock TV build with the infamous "$XX,000 as shown" in small print. On all the FFR website I can find but one picture of a near "base" 818 assembled, and it's only about half of a 3/4 rear view.

The cold hard truth is that if there was ever a consumer protection lawyer that wanted to make a buck, I have little doubt they could dismantle FFR in a weekend. As I've said before - can you take a single donor and single kit and assemble it in ~250 hours with basic hand tools into a running, driving car? Yes. Will it be anything like the car they advertise? Not even remotely.

[autostang]

I have to say my experience is that you can build the kit pretty close to the manual, easily for under $20k. If you could pick the kit up and already had all the tools I think $15k-17k would be doable. I put around 1,000 miles on mine last summer with no real issues. The only thing that comes to mind that I would consider a real design flaw is fuel starvation when cornering with less then 1/3 tank of gas. I had the body panels on the car as received and most non car people couldn't understand why I would take it back apart to do body work. So i think minimal or no body work is a real option. There are plenty of things that can be improved upon, but I got exactly the car I was expecting for pretty much the amount I was expecting to spend. If anything the ride is less harsh then expected and the car is pleasant to drive.

This is the first car I've built and it was a great experience. That being said I can see why people would sell it to do another project or get a car that more closely fits their needs. I want something that I can drive in the summer and tinker with in the winter.

[BrandonDrums]

If that was their goal then they hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately that's not the way the advertise. Everything is sold as requiring a kit, a single donor, paint, wheels and tires (paint, wheels and tires optional dependent on model and ambition.)

Yet never have I ever seen a single FFR advertisement online, in print, or on a Powerblock TV build with the infamous "$XX,000 as shown" in small print. On all the FFR website I can find but one picture of a near "base" 818 assembled, and it's only about half of a 3/4 rear view.

The cold hard truth is that if there was ever a consumer protection lawyer that wanted to make a buck, I have little doubt they could dismantle FFR in a weekend. As I've said before - can you take a single donor and single kit and assemble it in ~250 hours with basic hand tools into a running, driving car? Yes. Will it be anything like the car they advertise? Not even remotely.

Eh, I don't think they promise anything more than what they deliver. I think they do a good job for what it is but I personally feel they could improve sales if they offered more than just base kits and put some real engineering into their products so for those who want a fully thought out build in one place they can buy all the parts.

I'm sure plenty of people would spend $40k for a single package they just put together knowing everything is engineered and tested as a unit. I bet more than half of 818 buyers are putting that much total into the car anyway but FFR is only getting like $12k of that themselves.

I say the same thing about Subaru too with their WRX and STI. The average STI owner dumps another 5-10 grand on the car with aftermarket upgrades for power, suspension and looks (wheels, mudflaps etc.) Why they don't just make a STI from the factory with 400hp+, adjustable suspension and custom wheels is beyond me. Subaru could EASILY have an aftermarket tuner 'engineer' the car and Subaru simply sell the product. Ford had done this for years with the Mustang...

818's issue is similar except it's MUCH easier to solve because you're selling a kit. Just work with some tuner shop to develop the parts and sponsor the package. I personally would love to buy an 818 kit with bespoke engineered exhaust, oil system, intercooler, and coolant system with some interior bits. I haven't built an 818 because I lack the time or knowledge to plan and research every detail I'd want to fix to come up with something I know I could hammer on day in and day out without a major failure.

But I don't believe FFR has promised me other than something other than a great platform for a custom project.

[Sgt.Gator]

I think we have a new low price for a completed 818. $8K.

From Craig's List and Facebook:

https://images.craigslist.org/00G0G_3ZotNZ5d3dN_1200x900.jpg

"I am finally selling my Factory Five 818 kit car. It has been an amazing project, but I need to consolidate after moving from Colorado to the east coast.

It is a Factory Five Racing 818s built for track work. It is also street legal with a renewed registration in MD. Very little of the original donor is left, since we upgraded almost every component. Here is the good, the bad and the ugly.

The Good:
Driven ~3000 miles since it was built - mechanically in good shape.
New JDM EJ207 v7 STI motor (from JDM Racing Motors)
Completely refurbished VF23 Turbo with a VF43 impeller (from Blaast performance)
New/Rebuilt 5 spd WRX transmission (from All Terrain Transmissions)
Kirkey Racing bucket seats
Standalone TEC-S ECU (from WinTEC)
Sweet Lego electronics box with Android Display

The Bad:
I redid the wiring harness completely. It is in good working condition, but it is does not come with factory schematics.
It is built as a track car. It is not super comfortable, and the interior is not nicely finished.
The E-brake is not installed yet.

The Ugly:
It needs to be tuned before aggressively driving it. I was doing this a MAC Autosports in Colorado and but was told TurboXS can do it in MD.
Due to the radiator in the front and the engine in the rear, I have had several coolant issues. At this point I believe they are fixed (it drives well, no leaks, not temperature issues), but heads up if you have to change coolant.

Overall - It has been an amazing car, really easy to work on, extremely fun to drive, and its definitely going to hurt selling it. I am looking for serious buyers who understand what they are getting into (no matter what, a kit car is a project) and hopefully can care about this car as much as I do.

Please email or text me. I am hoping to get $8000 (1/4 of what I put in) or best offer.

Chris"

https://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/cto/d/factory-five-818-kit-race-car/6656604402.html

If it was on the West Coast I would buy it to add to my expanding rental fleet at Oregon Raceway Park. I'm still considering it though. I'd have to cut off the roll bar and re-do that plus a couple of other safety mods, but this appears to be an almost no brainer.

I hope it goes to someone on this forum who can have fun with it!

[Mitch Wright]

That is a bargain.

[David Hodgkins]

Remember when you could get a rustang for $1500? The 818 is probably at or near it's low, but who knows? All I know is it handles WAY too good to sell that low, even with issues like a one-off harness.

:)

[BC Huselton]

Is it possible that Dave S was at the East Coast Nationals one year and saw a retooled Meyer Manx with a Subaru Engine? The kit sold for around 10K without the engine. Still used the VW chassis and the drive line. Maybe he thought this was a segment that FFR could play in. An entry level, dune buggy style street racer. It was never intended to be high dollar project....unless the project owner wanted to build it that way.

These low $ units are the dune buggy level builds. Good for them, they built what they wanted.

Dave H, do you know the original Vision for the 818? I think people here are creating amazing 818 examples never really envisioned.

I have seen FFR Mark III sell anywhere from 15K to 60K recently. Hopefully, a well built 818 will gain some respect over time.

[phil1734]

I think we have a new low price for a completed 818. $8K.

You're using the term "completed" awful liberally here.

People who buy most cars typically aren't very interested in working on it. That's why projects in process sell so cheap, and why others trying to sell for $35-45k and up don't fly when they have blowed up parts and bad wiring.

And if you want to use it as a track car as is, $8k is still pretty pricey when put up against other alternatives (ex LeMons cars and the like.)

It's no longer a blank canvas either. If you wanted to build your own, you have to first deconstruct this guy's work and then start over, assuming he hasn't lost or butchered anything. So unfortunately it really isn't even worth the price of the kit in my own opinion. (I'd never trust somebody else's project if it looked like this.)

[Mitch Wright]

I think Phil makes some really good points. Having had to start over on projects others have started always seemed to double the necessary work need for a well built project.

[DND]

A note for anyone buying someone else's build, finished or not.
While you might get it at a great price because the builder lost interest or got stuck on something you need to be prepared to check every nut and bolt and potentially fix or redo things as others have already mentioned.
Personally I'm still happy with my 818 purchase because it's a fun car, I got a great price deal, and I wanted one to work on and drive, but I am definitely having to do more mechanical work (and some body repair) than I was expecting.

[Jetfuel]

I for one am happy that the 818 that I bought came up for sale when it did
After reading the add for the sale it might as well been written in mandarin since I know next to nothing about Subarus but the add did mention that it was meticulously built by a retired aircraft mechanic, that kind of told me everything I needed to know and after talking to the owner I knew I needed to buy it.
Going over the built book and the car itself told me that he did what he had to do and more, slippage marks over bolts and nuts, initials and signature in the sections and chapters of the built, wiring and fluid carrying hoses secured just as the FAA requires all aircrafts to be built,body fitting that is just right in all aspects from the ease of the door closing to the equal spacing of the gaps, secondary notes with extra information of vendors and add on specs.... yep it is meticulously put together by a 67 year old man by the time he was done, drove it four years and logged 2600 miles but as he told me he moved on to a bigger and better boat.
I have put over 200 hours of labor in the last month in just exterior/interior works to make it mine.
I am thankful that he did sell it because after restoring 3 cars to better than new I don't think I could have done the kit from the beginning, I will be modifying the basics or adding stuff to a never ending project.

Jetfuel

[LoneEagle]

Lots of good thoughts. It's a big project with challenges along the way. Forum is a big help. I'M familiar with aircraft building where maybe only 1 in 5 gets finished. If it is a lifetime dream. don't wait too long to start. Expectations are a big part of it. It is a small car, with not much utility. Prabably won't be a show piece. But so what. It is a total hoot to drive. Just not a daily driver. So just two pieces of advice: Measure twice, cut once. Do some work each week and eventually you get finished. It worth the effort once you start driving it!

[Sgt.Gator]

Another one sells for less than the cost of a kit...$10,601.00
https://www.ebay.com/itm/283503444265?ul_noapp=true&autorefresh=true

2014 Replica/Kit Makes 818S
Factory Five 818S
This Factory Five Racing 818S is the initial-release body style. It's titled and registered for the street in Maryland! Inspections and registration for these things can be tricky, and getting them was the worst part of building this car, in my view. You won't have to worry with this one! Just drive it away!

Comes with the following installed bits:
-Soft top (a $3000 upgrade)
-Air-to-water intercooler
-MR2 shifter (MUCH nicer than stock FFR shifter and cables)
-Windshield wiper, single arm, installed *without cutting* the hood! The install also added an extra support that means there is *no* hood flop or shake *at all*, unlike most other 818 hoods.
-Cobb Access Port, currently set to stage 2, which makes it crazy fast, but manageable
-2002 WRX 2.0 liter donor (135K miles on the motor, under-stressed in this tiny car, runs great and strong)
-5-Speed WRX transmission with upgraded gear set from Andrew Tech for max reliability

I have a limited slip differential ready to drop in the transmission at any time. I've been having too much fun driving it with the donor WRX's standard, open differential, and didn't want to take it off the road to pull the transmission. The LSD is included with the car for you to install after autocross/cruising season is over.

All the body panels are installed and fitted nicely, but still in the white gel-coat. I did the bare minimum of cutting, only where absolutely necessary, so there's lots of potential customization left in it. A few places need repair due to rough handling in shipping, but that's par for the course with kits. In particular, see pics for cracks in the rear engine cover. The car looks nice from 20 feet, but is a blank canvas for anyone who has a good eye and/or a talent for paint and fiberglass.

The interior is bare aluminum. Very racecar! You can get carpet sets from Factory Five, if you want to have a more refined look. The seats are the comfy stock ones from the donor 2002 WRX. If you're on the taller side, I would suggest installing race buckets, but these are great both for track events, and for long distance travel comfort.

The shifter handle, tilting steering wheel, and rear view mirrors are also from the donor. All the wiring and motors are in place if you feel adventurous enough to reinstall the electronic mirror control.

The air-to-water intercooler system is a must-have in these cars, as far as I'm concerned, and the AWIC in this one works perfectly. Engine and intake temps are rock-solid, steady and cool under all driving conditions.

The wheels and tires on the back are new. The fronts are from the donor WRX. They are wider than recommended by FFR, so you get a little rubbing during hard turns while backing up, but not while driving on the road. Getting a new pair for the front was high on my list if I was going to keep it.

I am only letting this go because I'm moving cross country and will not have space to store or work on the car. I love this thing, and will build another (or maybe an FFR Cobra) when I get the space and time.

[wirenut]

Yeah I was watching that one. Just Brutal. I was just talking to Bob Boig this morning (ordered his coolant tubes) and he said the 818 kit sales have seen a dip for sure.

Does anyone know what number they are at?

[jcheckers]

Well, when you guys that would rather build than drive want to sell your 818's just let me know.
I would like to build but just don't have the time and in the end the only reason I want to build is so I can drive it. ;)

I have a 818 for sale. Complete build. Runs and Drives. 16,000

[Harley818]

I don't know why others are selling theirs. I am guessing their priorities have changed, or life has changed.

For me it ticks all the boxes:
tick - looks Awesome....go look at my build
tick - acceleration of 0-60mph in 4+ seconds
tick - amazing cornering and handling
tick - sounds great
tick - great sound system
tick - gets lots of looks
tick - reliable power so far....

Every time I come into the office with a great big smile on my face.... my colleagues ask why.
Ever time I drive it I have a smile....
3 summers so far..... a couple more upgrades this winter.....can't wait till next summer.

I'm not selling.

[lance corsi]

I’ve been very interesting this thread from the beginning. My situation is similar to several others here, 65 & getting older every day. My car has been a learning experience for sure. I’ve been thinking about the numbers tho. If I can squeak under the finish line for 50K, here are my thoughts; I may be able to use the car for another 5 years or so. I have a bad back, so this isn’t a guarantee. So, divide the cost by 5 and this is my cost per year to drive my Dream. Now, I live in southern Ohio so weather prevents use for about 1/2 of the year. Roughly the cost to own my car would be somewhere near $60 per day, based on the decent weather days here. I figure at some point, my back will prevent me from driving it. So, at that price (which excludes extraneous costs, gas, oil, insurance, etc) one should take full advantage at every possible opportunity. Driving the wheels off is the only way to recoup the value, because selling is out of the question. If I could have afforded such a project at a younger age, that would have been nice. My skill levels in my youth wouldn’t have carried me through the project. I always wanted a hand built car, tube frame, mid engine, etc., except the stars didn’t align until now. It’s a catch 22.
My advice to anyone capable of building one of these cars would be to start the project while you’re still young & agile and your eyesight isn’t compromised. Do everything you’ve always wanted in a car. Don’t plan on an endless project, drive the sucker. There will always be other cars that tickle your fancy, grass is always greener..... I didn’t start the project based upon its finished sale price, but dang! My car has already got its next home, as I plan to give it to my friend who has helped me along the way. I know he will drive & enjoy it. It’ll have claw marks all over it when it leaves my hands! Everyone has their reasons for building/keeping these cars. There’s mine.

[lance corsi]

Btw, gas prices won’t stay at $3/gal forever. That should make some difference in the sale prices eventually. Where else can you have that much driving fun and still get 28 mpg?

[aquillen]

Lance - well put. You and I are just about exactly the same situation right down the line, back and all. Except I got about 5 years on you. Mine will probably go to my grandson although he needs to grow some more before I'd trust him alone in the thing...

That's assuming I ever get it finished too :).

Definitely did not build it expecting to recover costs.

[Zico]

If anyone is looking to sell a 818C or 818S with a hard top that can be registered as a daily driven personal vehicle let me know.

[The Halligan]

I've been involved with Factory Five cars for the better part of 2 decades, having built for myself as well as for customers. Much of the time I think it comes down to expectations; some may look at the 818 and think that it is comparable to a Boxter that they can build for themselves---it isn't. There was a recent discussion on this exact topic. It was heavily Roadster related but the main points are applicable.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?26711-Some-thoughts-after-selling-a-few-FFR-cars&highlight=expectations

Jeff

I just stumbled upon this link and it's been a food read so far. Thanks for sharing!

[markclow1]

Yes I bought a 818 and I think I would be better off in a Boxster as I am not a wrenching kind of guy. So I am probably going to sell my 818 soon (Hindsight's old car).

[mac1]

Owned our 818 for 3 years now, recently had it listed for 2 weeks, no offers so I unlisted it. Fast forward this entire week I used it as a commuter 110 miles a day of mixed driving. 22-25mpg on a '06 WRX stock build. I enjoy the cruise control at times, I enjoy the ability to pass cars on the hwy without the need to downshift at all. The trunk gets a lot of use. Mornings are cold so i'm always prepared, afternoons are awsome. Commuting to work in the 818 brings me in good spirits, enjoying some tunes and fresh air rather then the Avalon I usually drive.

818 owners that get actual use out of their builds know what it's like to drive around in a analog car that is compensating for nothing, small and powerful without even trying! There are haters on the road that will get in your way cause it's like they can read your intentions and feel the need to govern the road:mad:. If I want to get ahead I usually just hang back and catch some by surprise, the instant boost is something you cannot prepare for when you trying to block a 818 :D

Why do people sell? I'm trying aswell.....I want an offroad Exocet because I live in the desert, the lady wants a Argnage R because she likes to keep me in the garage, and I already made it clear to her that if we still own the 818 next year I will be making it faster. That is what she is afraid of! It's a bit scary to her as is and to top it off, $25/mo to insure with agreed Value!

[mac1]

Yes I bought a 818 and I think I would be better off in a Boxster as I am not a wrenching kind of guy. So I am probably going to sell my 818 soon (Hindsight's old car).


Although they are in the same category, they are worlds apart. If the Boxter is your cup of tea then yeah, the 818 was a mistake.
I have driven 2 boxters, low mileage model in 2008 and it felt peppy and great, then recently a high mileage one and I must say that I've never been in such a crappy feeling car. THey are inexpensive sporty car for sure and might give you some thrill for the money. 818 is much easier to work on though.

[longislandwrx]

thanks for everyone's insight, this thread was a good read.