Side Exhaust Position

[jwebb]

See attached photos, how can I get the exhaust to be the same on both sides? Motor mounts are in the same location left & right in the chassis.....8061380614

[jwebb]

8061580616

More room on passenger side?

[edwardb]

Your headers to the footboxes looks pretty normal. It is typically much tighter on the DS. Do you have the body centered, front splash guards installed, and wraparound under the sides attached with the doors installed? The body can move in and out a lot, especially in that area where the pipes exit. More important than the exits IMO are how parallel and even distance from side to side the pipes are from the body.

[Avalanche325]

edwardb nailed it. There are wedges and spacers available if you need to adjust. I made some AL spacers myself. Just a copy of the gasket, to get further away from the body.

[Jeff Kleiner]

If you're talking about how the header to sidepipe flange is farther out on the driver's side the answer is FFR 4 into 4 headers on a 351. The headers have been that way on every 351 based car I've done. Doesn't occur with 302 based engines (needless to say the headers are different).

Jeff

[michael everson]

Can you take a picture of the driver side pipe? Looks like its pretty close to the body yet you can clearly see the flange sticking out past the body. Not normal. If it was my car, i would have that side header shortened as long at the side pipe was far enough from the body.
Mike

[CraigS]

Wow that looks like crap. I have seen many, many cars where the driver's side was higher than the passenger but I wasn't aware the the 351 driver's side is too long. Jeez FFR.

[jwebb]

Jeff,
How did you address the situation previously? Should I consider shortening the DS header (Mike Everson)if installing the splash shield (EdwardB)doesn't have any effect or have a spacer made for the PS header? Can I buy spacers that are made already?? Very surprised that FFR has never addressed the issue with a design mod!!

Jim

[michael everson]

You can buy the exhaust flanges from FFR to use as spacers. I think they are 3/8 thick. You might need a few.
Mike

[Murd]

I had the same issue with the header flange seeming to long, but with a 302. Took the forum advice and once I installed the splash guards it pushed the body way further out than I thought it would. Get those installed first then see where you are at.

[ThickCobra]

See attached photos, how can I get the exhaust to be the same on both sides? Motor mounts are in the same location left & right in the chassis.....8061380614

That's how it looks for my 351w also. PS tucked in closer while the DS bolts show. Thought I had set the engine wrong.

[jwebb]

That's how it looks for my 351w also. PS tucked in closer while the DS bolts show. Thought I had set the engine wrong.

Did you add any spacers to the PS? To get the side pipe away from the body enough I'll need to!

[Norm B]

The FFR headers for my 302 where the same. I thought it might be the heads I used that caused the problem. The drivers side was too high, even after tilting and lowering the engine, and I had the flange machined on an angle to lower it. I had to add a spacer on the passenger side and made my own out of aluminum plate.

HTH

Norm

[Richard Oben]

Breeze sells (or they did) wedges and spacers to make everything fit. We have shimmed the motor mount a lot of times also. It is a fixable situation. In the case in the picture make sure the splash guards are installed. Also the body is NOT centered over the hood opening it is centered by measuring the shock mounts to fender. HTH, Richard.

[ThickCobra]

Did you add any spacers to the PS? To get the side pipe away from the body enough I'll need to!

I have not decided what I want to do with it yet. Plenty of time before spring to sort it out.

[CraigS]

Also realize that the bolts that attach the body under the rocker panel area also affect this. Most people end up slotting the holes in the fiberglass so the side of the body can be pushed in and out to help align it flush to the door. Since the body is pretty solid (due to the curvature to fit it under the frame) from the rear wheel opening to the exhaust cutout that entire length moves as a whole.

[jwebb]

The FFR headers for my 302 where the same. I thought it might be the heads I used that caused the problem. The drivers side was too high, even after tilting and lowering the engine, and I had the flange machined on an angle to lower it. I had to add a spacer on the passenger side and made my own out of aluminum plate.

HTH

Norm

Norm,
You wouldn't happen to have the template for the spacer you made, otherwise I'll just us a gasket for the dimensions!

Jim

[Norm B]

Jim, I just traced the gasket.

Norm

[brewha]

I would balance the end of the headers first. You mentioned the motor mounts are in the same location but the correct position to look at is the end of the header to the floor. There is about a 1/4 inch play in the engine position(by motor mount) which can change the end of the header by almost an 1 1/2. Balance the engine first by the header flanges to the floor and then check the side pipe run out. The side pipe run on each side may be different but will look appropriate per side.

[DavidW]

Splash Guard install was recommended to me, I'll be trying that soon.

[j.miller]

Just a reminder, the cutouts are for J-pipes. Yes , driver side is higher then pass. And yes, D side is closer to the body. It's normal for me to move D side up about 2.5 in. Pass side about 1.3/4. Also, the pass side needs a deeper back-cut on the back edge of the hole. When all is said and done, "most".....not "all" will fit parallel to the body without the use of shims. Not the same on each side but passable......Happy Mediums is the name of this game.....Good luck should you choose this mission......this message will self destruct in 5.....4.....3....2....1....REALLY ! Your still here. Most guys leave when I get to 3......You got this ....da Bat

[jwebb]

Just a reminder, the cutouts are for J-pipes. Yes , driver side is higher then pass. And yes, D side is closer to the body. It's normal for me to move D side up about 2.5 in. Pass side about 1.3/4. Also, the pass side needs a deeper back-cut on the back edge of the hole. When all is said and done, "most".....not "all" will fit parallel to the body without the use of shims. Not the same on each side but passable......Happy Mediums is the name of this game.....Good luck should you choose this mission......this message will self destruct in 5.....4.....3....2....1....REALLY ! Your still here. Most guys leave when I get to 3......You got this ....da Bat

da Bat,
So you don't use a spacer on the PS to get the header closer to the body, similar to the DS? Just elongating the PS hole is adequate?

Jim

[jwebb]

Jim, I just traced the gasket.

Norm

Norm,
How thick is your spacer and do you feel like making another one?

[Norm B]

My passenger side pipe was only 1/2 inch from the body. I made a spacer out of some 1/2 inch aluminum plate I had left over from another project. That’s about as thick as I can tackle with the tools I have. I would have to look to see if I have enough aluminum left for another. Away from home for work now and have 1 day at off between now and the 24th. Will look and let you know if have any left and can help.

Norm

[Norm B]

How soon would you need it. Just checked the weather at home and it’s -14 Celsius or about 7 above 0 Fahrenheit. Won’t be doing anything in the shop for awhile unless it warms up.

Norm

[jwebb]

How soon would you need it. Just checked the weather at home and it’s -14 Celsius or about 7 above 0 Fahrenheit. Won’t be doing anything in the shop for awhile unless it warms up.

Norm

Norm,
Thank you for the reply, I'm more like >1" away on the passenger side! Curious what FFR has to say about the differences side to side.

Jim

[jwebb]

Just heard from FFR, they are sending a spacer & wedge to get the PS side similar to the DS.. Still don't understand why this condition exists on 351W builds and nothing has been done to address it from a engineering perspective!

[erstanl]

jwebb, I am in the same position I think that you were. I have a 351w (408) and the flange is sticking out past the body. I cannot move the body at this point as its painted and mounted. What did you end up doing here? I am considering getting new headers, or modifying the FFR ones again.

This is what mine look like:
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[michael everson]

Wow somethings wrong there. What are your particulars on the build?
Mike

[FLPBFoot]

Wow somethings wrong there. What are your particulars on the build?
Mike

Agree with Mike, My DS is inside the body by 1 inch and the PS is inside by 1.25 inches. Somethings not right.

[erstanl]

Mr Everson, the particulars are:
408 Windsor with RHS 215 heads
FFR 4into4 headers
FFR side pipes cera-koted black

What else would be helpful to know? Happy to take some more pics if it helps!

Body already painted and mounted. Don’t want to mess with that.

[BB767]

Agree with Mike, My DS is inside the body by 1 inch and the PS is inside by 1.25 inches. Somethings not right.

I disagree. Mine is just like Erstanl’s and I have seen many like it. Blueprint 427w. No adjustment possible. One shim on passenger side for alignment. That’s just the way they fit without serious modifications. The side clearance from the pipe to body is similar on both sides. (See Jeff Kliners post above.)

[FLPBFoot]

I disagree. Mine is just like Erstanl’s and I have seen many like it. Blueprint 427w. No adjustment possible. One shim on passenger side for alignment. That’s just the way they fit without serious modifications. The side clearance from the pipe to body is similar on both sides. (See Jeff Kliners post above.)

Well, I guess I got lucky then...Blue Print 427 and mine is perfect. It's hard for me to understand why my DS is an inch inside the body when so many are sticking out? Something has to be different to cause it. Length of headers, body position, motor mounts, something??

[erstanl]

Here is another angle of the issue. I don't think its drivable as is. The flange will knock into the top of the cutout and bang up all the nice bodywork as is.

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[Norm B]

How does the height of the pipes compare side to side. I have 351 heads on my 331 and had to have the header flange milled on an angle to lower the drivers' side pipe. The problem you have is the body cutout has already been enlarged to allow for the higher pipe so my solution would leave a large gap above the pipe.
I took a screen shot of the last picture you posted and don't know if modifying the header length will be possible. It maybe an optical illusion created by the camera angle but, it doesn't look you can move the flange inside the body without the pipe getting close to the body. The two red lines on the attached picture are the same length.
It may take a combination of tilting the engine, moving the body out and a liberal sprinkling of the correct bad words to get it to the right spot.


HTH

Norm

[Scott Zackowski]

Here is another angle of the issue. I don't think its drivable as is. The flange will knock into the top of the cutout and bang up all the nice bodywork as is.

143467

I have a 408W (351W Based) with the Factory Five Headers and my DS Header end is closer to the body, just like Kliner stated. Header Flange to DS Body 5/8 inch and PS to Body 2 inches. Now this is after pulling the underside of the DS body outward as much as possible and then riveting it in place underneath. It needed to pulled out anyway to assist in proper DS door fitment. I also adjusted the PS so that the body to side pipe distance was close to the same on both sides. It also meant enlarging the cut outs for proper clearance, which was required on both sides.

Like most, the body on the frame required tweaking to get the front end aligned with the hood frame openings and in my case I had to move the rear of the body over to the DS by about 1/2 inch to get it to sit over the rear wheels properly. I verified multiple times that the rear axle was centered because initially I thought that was the problem. All in all the body on the frame needs to be tweaked so that everything looks right to the eye and not by the measuring stick.

I think you have a difficult situation because your body is painted and positioned and the cut outs made. But I don't see anyway around not pulling the DS body out some and re-reviting the underside. A lot of folks place 2 revits one more forward which in my case helped get the body out further from the Header Flange. And enlarging the side pipe cuts outs where needed. The cut out raw edges could be touch up with brushed on black paint. The concern is that adjusting the body out might mess up your door alignment. Maybe even enough that additional body work would be required on the door and re-painting. Although not ideal maybe just making the cut out bigger where needed is the easiest way to go at this point.

Also make sure your side pipes are basically at the same height off the floor. If not, them maybe some engine movement could help.


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As you can see the top bolt (socket head) is still prominent but more inside the body, and overall a better appearance.

[rich grsc]

One take away here, don't paint the body till EVERYTHING fits the way you like.:(
Is the body centered side to side?

[Jeff Kleiner]

As I said way back in post #5 this is a characteristic of the FFR headers on a high deck 351 based block. That was the case when I wrote it 3 years ago and is still true today although I'm hopeful that the new ball flange headers might be better. With the traditional 4 into 4s the driver's side flange is right at the body... sometimes beyond. The situation is exacerbated if wedges are required to align the pipes with the body because the stack up moves the pipe flange even farther outward. I hate it but my hands are tied when working the cutouts and I have to leave clearance. Most times I end up using buttonhead bolts to gain just a little vs. the socketheads. As Rich said this should have been addressed before paint---I always, always, always fit and align the pipes during mock up and massage the cutouts as required. If necessary you can reshape them after paint by working carefully with a 1 1/2" drum sander in a die grinder or drill.

Good luck,
Jeff

[D Stand]

If you can’t resolve your issue with all of the suggestions so far you could reach out to George at GAS-N. I have spoken with him about an issue with my set up (raised deck 351w based 427 with Z heads that FFR does not support with their standard headers) and he has an adjustable header jig that he can send you so you can get the side pipe flange exactly where you want them. Once set, you send the jig back and he will make a custom set of headers for you. His headers also offers an adjustable ball joint for side pipe adjustments now. I have ordered a set from him with the right flange for the Z heads. I should receive them next week and I am hoping that they will be even on both sides but after reading this post we will see.... George did say that if I need to have in/out adjustments he could build the side pipe flange to ball connection to any length if needed.

[johnnybgoode]

Here is another angle of the issue. I don't think its drivable as is. The flange will knock into the top of the cutout and bang up all the nice bodywork as is.

143467

Looks like the header/pipe flange just needs to come in a bit. I've had both headers and pipes modified on various cars. Not really that tough or expensive to do, just need to find a good welder/fab shop and they should be able to fix you up.

You also might be able to replace the gasket with copper RTV which would save you a 1/8" and switch the top bolt to a hex or pan head and it might get you by? My 2 cents. Good Luck. Scott

[erstanl]

Fellas, thanks for the responses. I cannot change the body or paint at this point. It was professionally fitted and painted by one of the best, I have no reason to doubt his ability to center the body and create proper cutouts. I am in contact with Georgie, but am really considering just having the FFR header modified at this point, see if I can get it all lined up properly. Kind of an annoying problem really. I thought I was on the home stretch!