Custom Body - Methods and Means - Software, Programs and Techniques

[kach22i]

There has been talk in several threads about what it would take to make your own body to put on an FFR frame.

See posts #13 and onward:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2700-Dave-just-hear-me-out...

Artists and custom car makers from the 1960's and 1970's like George Barris, Dick Dean, Ed Roth and many others did "one-offs" all the time. This was in an era before 3D computer drawing programs and CNC milling. So how did they do it?

There has got to be more efficient ways today, to make limited production or one-off custom car bodies.

I'm open to suggestions.

The reason I started this thread is because I clicked on an article in Yahoo news which captured my imagination.

Man builds his own million dollar Bugatti supercar by hand
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technology-blog/man-builds-own-million-dollar-bugatti-supercar-hand-211223675.html

Mike Duff.....the 25 year old
http://digitsup.blogspot.com/2011/07/mike-duff.html

Cougatti
http://straightfromthea.com/2011/07/16/man-builds-bugatti-from-02-mercury-cougar-photos/

So far I have found little technical information about how Mike Duff pulled off what he did. I don't even know if the engine is still up front. There is mention of foam, fiberglass and a tube frame, but not much more to go off of.

Mike Duff is not the first guy to do something like this, just the latest in a long line of "can do" and "why not" people who have done it.

The two part foam crazy Russian method still looks most doable. However based on my limited hovercraft building/modifying experiences, it's not as easy as it looks, the foam absorbs moisture causing future weight gains, and it's just plain toxic and messy to work with.

The Russian
http://englishrussia.com/2008/05/29/lithuanians-and-pu-foam/

Based on clay car building at home, getting things symmetrical is a real challenge, at least as much as a challenge as it was 100 years ago when all car were "hand built". Templates, ships curves and so forth must be used to end up with predictable results. Where do you get them, make them and how are they used?

Ship Curves, as photoed in the garage of the Edsel & Eleanor Ford estate at Eyes on Design - 2011.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Eyes%20On%20Design%20-%202011/#!cpZZ18QQtppZZ20
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Eyes%20On%20Design%20-%202011/DSCF1788.jpg

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Eyes%20On%20Design%20-%202011/#!cpZZ15QQtppZZ20
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Eyes%20On%20Design%20-%202011/DSCF1790.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Eyes%20On%20Design%20-%202011/DSCF1789.jpg

Model first?
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Eyes%20On%20Design%20-%202011/#!cpZZ15QQtppZZ20
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Eyes%20On%20Design%20-%202011/DSCF1772.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Eyes%20On%20Design%20-%202011/DSCF1773.jpg

[olpro]

Hi George,
First of all there is a debate over on another website (http://www.madmechanics.com/) as to how much that Mike Duff did on that car. Personally I don't think he had anything to do with the body other than finishing/painting. Yahoo makes it all sound so easy.
A good company for clay stuff is Chavant. They have industrial clays and lots of tools. The big tools, like those ships curves, radii curves, etc. probably have to be custom made. The photo at Edsel Fords with six wooden curves is kind of funny. There ought to be DOZENS of them, mostly in metal and including mostly true radii. This kind of equipment gets really expensive but one could make some by hand.
These days, the best way is to CAD model a design, then have laser cut wood templates made. Short of that, one needs to make a surface plate, etc. to insure accuracy. This is best in metal but wood could be used. Carpenter's laser levels can be incorporated into this for measuring purposes. It get pretty complicated just to get a set up.
Working from a scale model is okay but it has to be done extremely accurately too, with a surface plate of its own.

[D2W]

I have thought about doing this, and the way I was going to do it was start with an existing fiberglass body and modify it. If you followed Mark Smith and his development of the G3F you saw him start with a GTM body and modify it by bonding on a different front and rear (both from different cars). In between he carved foam and fiberglassed over the top to develop the shape he wanted. It no longer looks anything like a GTM. If you wanted to make multiple copies all you need to do is take it to a mold maker.

[olpro]

If you can work over an existing surface, you can have a much quicker easier process than starting from an original idea.

[kach22i]

I've been reading threads in the boatdesign.net forum for a few years, discovered some flexible planking (foam/glass composite in which resin can be added) which eliminates the need for the stringers running over templates or spars (as in balsa wood airplane model). Seems like it would be idea process for building a one off car shell.

There is of course other skin materials, flexible foams (Z-Plex), balsa core materials with glass fabric one side only and so forth, lots of choices. The making of cross sectional templates would be the easy part, in school we called them "Serial Models" but nothing under that tag line doing a Google search.

Boat Hull Construction photo:
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?13675-Norseboat
2965

The idea that it's easier to start with something and add on to or cut into is a valid one. It will never be lighter than from scratch, but there are far more advantages than I can list.

Aerodynamic tail cones and pick up truck cap/cabs using all sorts of methods and materials in this link: http://ecomodder.com/forum/aerodynamics.html

When I was 21, I told one of my college housemates (over a beer) that by the time I was 35 I would have built a three wheel car of my own design. Well 30 years later and no 3-wheeled car or even 4-wheel car of my own design in my driveway. Only a house filled with foam and clay models of unbuilt transportation dreams. Time and money never seem to coincide, but perhaps one day they will. Gotta have a dream, life is more fun that way.

I'll check out the http://www.madmechanics.com/ link. The Duff car seems to change colors depending which article you read, and never seems to have the information you would expect. Maybe it is another balloon boy story in the making. There is a car magazine author of the same name, but I don't think it's the same guy. There is something fishy about it, time will tell.

EDIT: Interesting..........................
http://www.madmechanics.com/general-kitcar-chat/bugatti-replic-in-yahoo-news/

http://www.madmechanics.com/build-diaries/here-is-some-pics-you've-asked-for

EDIT-2:
I rented the movie Tucker last summer, if you want to get inspired and a little depressed at the same time watch it.

[thebeerbaron]

If you haven't read the relevant portions of my design blog where I made a clay model as my entry to the FFR/GRM design competition, I'll give you a short synopsis:

Clay is hard.

I've been doing ceramics for about a decade, off and on. Started in college (art major), picked it back up after grad school, it keeps me sane. The plastic clay that designers use is completely different than the clay I'm used to working with. It was a long and difficult road to get the model finished and the result was not perfect. Getting a perfect clay surface is as olpro notes, a matter of having or making the right tools. Lots and lots and lots of them.

Symmetry, smoothness, and crisp edges are all hard to achieve as an amateur (or better-than-amateur) with clay. I don't want to say CAD is easy, but worrying about slight surface imperfections just doesn't happen with CAD.

Smart money, if you want to do your own body, is on learning the right CAD program and figuring out how to go from the program to the real world.


Artists and custom car makers from the 1960's and 1970's like George Barris, Dick Dean, Ed Roth and many others did "one-offs" all the time. This was in an era before 3D computer drawing programs and CNC milling. So how did they do it?

Talent. Experience. Experimentation. Trial and error. Etc. These guys weren't trading stocks by day and building cars as a lark after work, this was what they did, day in and day out (IIRC - my history on custom cars is abysmal). As much as we'd all like to be able to do something like this, sometimes realizing that you're way out of your league is a good lesson. I'm not saying that's the case here, just throwing that out there.

Also, some of these cars looked great but weren't really usable machines. IIRC these guys used paint as a structural element in a lot of cases.

[olpro]

I had posted these images before but will put them up again for this thread. They cover scale model armature construction and tools. The idea is to create a model setup which will allow for some accuracy to a drawing and decent symmetry. The layout drawing should be done to the same scale for easy translation back and forth.
2972
2973
2974
2975

[olpro]

Note the clay model in this pix, on its modeling board. This is Roman, with his mini garbage truck concept.
2976In the background you can see the layout drawings - three views (side, plan and split front/rear) done on gridded vellum with black map tape for easy modification. Tape drawings are a standard technique in the auto studio, although some what less in this digital world.

[mekeys]

I am posting these pictures to show that you don't really need expensive computers etc. to build mock-ups. Over the years in the late 50's and early 60's I was involved with several full size projects. All done before computers were around. And without ship curves. Done the old fashion way "EYEBALL" They were done in four different ways. One was just to finish a plaster mock-up. And one I did a full size drawing and cut the stations from plywood and then screened it and put plaster on it and finished it with a lacquer finish. And the Bounty Hunter dune buggy mock-up was strickly by eye. One was by using existing sheet metal fenders,hood and trunk lid from a 53 Studebaker welded together and filling in the gaps with screen wire and plaster.

Mel Keys

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc465/mekeys/scan3.jpg

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc465/mekeys/img525.jpg

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc465/mekeys/img537.jpg

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc465/mekeys/img100.jpg

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc465/mekeys/img098.jpg

[armstrom]

There are some good build diaries out there showing what is involved in making a plug, pulling molds and finally production parts. Here are two that I followed years ago:
http://www.grabercars.com/content/category/2/9/42/
http://www.desicodesign.com/meerkat/Bodywork%201.htm

Enjoy :)

[Dave Smith]

FFR is pretty good at chasiss work and the body shapes we've done to date are pretty good. Truth is that the 818 project(s) hinge SO much on great body shapes/designs that we are really taking several directions with CAD printing, clay modeling, and yes, the old fashioned hand shaping. More to report soon enough.

[thebeerbaron]

C'mon Dave, have you learned nothing here on the forum? There's no such thing as "soon enough" for this flock of vultures! :)

[Dave Smith]

copy that roger beer baron.

[Niburu]

C'mon Dave, have you learned nothing here on the forum? There's no such thing as "soon enough" for this flock of vultures! :)
A group of vultures is called a wake, committee, or venue.

[thebeerbaron]

I knew I should have looked it up. I love that a group of crows is called a "murder". Apologies to all.

[kach22i]

http://www.desicodesign.com/meerkat/Bodywork%201.htm
Nice link, went to the end page:

http://www.desicodesign.com/meerkat/Assembly.htm


The assembly phase

This is the part were I'll actually do the final assembly (figuratively of course). Had it been a kit this would be the first page:)

From what I can tell.

1. Mock-up is built.

2. Molds are made off of the mock-up.

3. Gel-coated the molds, hand laid some fiberglass.

4. The assembly phase

[olpro]

http://deansgarage.com/2009/ron-kellogg%E2%80%99s-bugatti-type-5759-roadster-special/#comments
This is a great website and this particular page is of interest to anyone wanting to make their own body.

[mekeys]

http://deansgarage.com/2009/ron-kellogg%E2%80%99s-bugatti-type-5759-roadster-special/#comments
This is a great website and this particular page is of interest to anyone wanting to make their own body.

That type 59 Bugatti concept,is one Fantastic work of ART.....I bookmarked it too..

Mel Keys

[kach22i]

Nice site Olpro, I've bookmarked it for later study.

[acmonster]

This topic keeps getting me thinking, how great would it be if we were all able to design and construct our own bodies, to our own liking, on top of a reliable and strong frame? One thought is plastic. There are 3D printers now that are capable of printing anything in ABS plastic. With a good design and a 3D printer that can cover a larger area (think large scale CNC machine with a 3D Print head) anyone should be able to construct their own custom body. They are working on this in the 'Urbee (http://www.urbee.net/home/)' project.

[Cooluser23]

This topic keeps getting me thinking, how great would it be if we were all able to design and construct our own bodies, to our own liking, on top of a reliable and strong frame? One thought is plastic. There are 3D printers now that are capable of printing anything in ABS plastic. With a good design and a 3D printer that can cover a larger area (think large scale CNC machine with a 3D Print head) anyone should be able to construct their own custom body. They are working on this in the 'Urbee (http://www.urbee.net/home/)' project.

Tell me if you find one at an affordable price. I've looked about a year ago and gave up..

[Cooluser23]

I saw the Urbee at Sema. It's made from sections of ABS plastic and the cost is unaffordably expensive. They just happen to be sponsored by Dimension, makers of 3D printers.

[acmonster]

Are you saying the cost of the plastic is unaffordably expensive or the process? You can buy a MakerBot 3D Printer for $1200 new, but would have to DIY it some to work on a larger project. I'm sure it could be done. people are having their 3D printers make new fully functioning 3D printers. I love the idea, of having a device build parts to better itself or replicate itself.

[olpro]

Thanks for that link to Urbee. If is interesting to see what some people are trying to do with technology and I had not heard of that particular organization.
Unfortunately, the whole 3D printer technology is largely overrated by the general press because current printers are not capable of making such large objects (I think that RISD is using 3D printing but having to assemble numerous elements even for a ¼ scale car model). Also the printing medium is not structurally sound enough to do anything other than fragile appearance models (and a start for casting tooling models).
On the other hand, the NC milling processes ALREADY in full operation can build large models, up to 50’ boats. A car size plug is easy for some of these machines. There are also numerous small companies that can mill smaller elements which can be assembled for a full size car plug.
NC milling is a far better answer than 3D printing and has major advantages which it will retain with larger mold sizes.
The 3D printing process still has the advantage for highly detailed small parts (an instrument binnacle would be a perfect project).

The fabric bodies mentioned by Kach22 in another thread are still the most interesting approach to me. (I used to make elaborate cardboard and paper mockups when I was working at GM Design Staff - I did entire front ends of Buicks in cardstock which were good enough for design evaluation so I know there is a lot of potential with this kind of simple media).
The BMW Gina http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTYiEkQYhWY outlines the possibilities for fabric bodies and is an interesting project. However, it doesn’t explore the real possibilities that WE could utilize as much as the fabric covered aircraft, boats and cars of a much earlier era do. I am a fan of WW-I and Golden Age airplanes - fabric covered contraptions capable of high speeds, exceeding 200 mph. They didn’t use the highly flexible Lycra like the Gina but rather other fabrics with much greater strength and durability. Butyrate and Nitrate dopes were used on these fabrics but modern materials are better and far less flammable and more UV resistant.
I suppose the fabric could be a stretch material without treatment and would allow more radical forms than stiffer fabrics. The other end of the scale would be to use the fabric as a BASE upon which to spray on chopped glass - pull off the result to use as a part (or as a mold). Hopefully a matte finish would be acceptable with such a process because a gloss finish would be hard to achieve.
The tooling would be subtly bent tubing over which the fabric could be stretched. The interesting possibilities for interiors, seating and convertible tops can be factored in, further enhancing the potential of fabric.
I have priced out the cost of NC milling (in foam or clay) for an auto body and the fabric approach is really interesting as a low cost option.
If the body is stretch fabric, then the tube frame would have to be carried underneath it. If this is just a step in the body tooling process then the car becomes much more like current fiberglass technology.
I don’t know much about spraying chopped glass parts but am interested in looking at possible shapes that might be possible with fabric.

[305mouse]

I want a Carbon Fiber body, let's just do that instead of the gel coat. Too bad the body would be as much as the kit if not more.

[kach22i]

I want a Carbon Fiber body, let's just do that instead of the gel coat. Too bad the body would be as much as the kit if not more.
The clear coat to protect Carbon Fiber form UV rays is something like $2,000 a gallon. It is similar to the epoxy used on electronic pcb boards as I understand it.

[olpro]

The one thing (mentioned in my last post) is using chopped/sprayed glass rather than a layup (I assume FFR does layups and plans on doing that for the 818). Newport Composites does the Manx bodies (with gel coat) and they are chopped glass. Their quality is quite good too. I presume the weight is higher vs layups but the cost is much lower. Anyone know more about this? http://www.newportlaminates.com/intro.html

[kach22i]

Almost every Kit Car magazine article I've read dealing with chopped glass was the spray on type, and hated by the author of the articles. Too heavy, uneven thickness, weakness and so forth. Maybe the opinions were so sharp because the articles I recall were for Porsche 356 Speedster replicas.

The old Starship hovercraft out of Canada is reported to have used a chopper gun to form the hull. It is regarded to be to heavy to be a good performer even with modern engines and fans.

http://www.decastris.com/hcc/builders/starship/starship.htm

Olpro, do you know Dave Strollery by any chance (see link, 2nd paragraph)? Looks like a fun job, some nice work shown.
http://www.newportlaminates.com/design.html

[olpro]

Stollery? Oh my gawd!
I worked with Stollery at GM Design Staff until he went to form CALTY design (Toyota's US design facility - the first of the many foreign car studios on the Left coast). He was a crazy guy who loved to play pranks on people and a quite talented designer. He was famous as MARTY of Spin & Marty, if you remember your Mickey Mouse Club facts.
http://www.sacredclassics.com/spin_mar.htm
When I was at Nissan Design in San Diego I would run into him at design events, car shows, etc. Dave teaches at Art Center and I have worked with him on a project or two - he as the instructor, me as rep for the corp. sponsor (Nissan). Together we would formulate student project assignments although I would only visit the school four or five times during the term. I could go on and on about him, a very entertaining and cool guy.

[kach22i]

He was famous as MARTY of Spin & Marty, if you remember your Mickey Mouse Club facts.
http://www.sacredclassics.com/spin_mar.htm
Five years before I was born, but looks like an interesting era and program.

I've read and been told that the world of car designers is a small one, and when I read "Art College of Art and Design - Pasadena", thought for sure you knew him or of him.

[mekeys]

After being discharged from the Air Force in 1954 I went to "The Art Center" at that time it was on 5353 west third street.I took transportation class and Strother Mac Minn was my instructer.I only went there three years.Those years were the best time of my life because all us guys were all interested in the same thing "CARS"
I was saddened to learn that Mac Minn passed away in 1998..

[olpro]

It's a small world. Although I didn't go to Art Center, I know lots of people who did. Most of them talk about MacMinn. He truly was a master of the pencil drawing, plus he had a great sense of form.
http://deansgarage.com/2009/sports-cars-of-the-future-by-strother-macminn/?show=slide

[ron stebles]

The dune buggy looks to be a plug for the bounty hunter which was produced by Brian Dries in Burbank and then the Deserter on the east coast. I built a bunch of those in the late 60's. I worked with Brian at a couple of companies.


Ron

[mekeys]

The dune buggy looks to be a plug for the bounty hunter which was produced by Brian Dries in Burbank and then the Deserter on the east coast. I built a bunch of those in the late 60's. I worked with Brian at a couple of companies.


Ron

If you are refering to the Bounty Hunter mock-up in this thread..I am the designer.Brian and I were supposed to be partners he just helped me with the work on the plug. after we sold a few buggies he made a couple of small changes and went into business for himself.He made the headlights bigger and added a buldge on the hood and also changed the front end design under the nose a little.I have to give Brian credit for creating the side pods and a top..

google Mel Keys

[D2W]

Mel you were not only around but involved in the very beginnings of the kit car industry. Any interesting stories? Who were some of the people you worked with? I've always thought the history of the "kit car" was fascinating. I loved what some of the early guys did, both good and bad.

[mekeys]

Mel you were not only around but involved in the very beginnings of the kit car industry. Any interesting stories? Who were some of the people you worked with? I've always thought the history of the "kit car" was fascinating. I loved what some of the early guys did, both good and bad.

To read all about the early days of fiberglass kit cars go to.

www.forgottenfiberglass.com

Mel Keys

[olpro]

That looks like a great website. Thanks.

[mekeys]

That looks like a great website. Thanks.

To see how extensive the site is be sure and click Article Archive.
Mel

[olpro]

As long as we are on a nostalgia kick, here is a link to Art Fitzpatrick who painted those amazing Pontiac ads back in the day – before the Photoshop era so popular today. I have seen some of the original artworks and they are quite small. A guy named Van Kaufmann did the backgrounds which are also fantastic.
http://www.fitz-art.com/

[kach22i]

http://www.fitz-art.com/
An incredible body of work.

[kach22i]

Ask, and Ye Shall Receive............

My wife alerted me to an "open house" next Monday for a new business in town. I do not know if other cities have something like this, but now that you know they exist - keep an eye out for them.

Makers, Hobbyists and Entrepreneurs
http://maker-works.com/

Maker Works is a 10,000 sq. ft. member-based studio located in Ann Arbor, MI. It features 4 areas of making: METAL, CIRCUITS, WOOD and CRAFT. It also provides hundreds of hand tools, open work stations, a retail store and more.

TOOL HIGHLIGHTS: 4 AREAS
METAL - Tormach CNC Mill, Bridgeport Mill, Clausing Colchester Engine Lathe, 18" band saw and more


WOOD - 48"x96" Shopbottm CNC router; Saw Stop table saw; circular saw; 8" jointer, scroll saw; band saw; drill press; 20" Planer


CIRCUITS- Oscilloscopes; power supplies; function generators; soldering stations; sheet metal shear; sheet metal brake; computer work stations with AutoCAD tm, Solidworks tm and Corel tm; still and video cameras; LEGO Mindstormstm, Robotis BioLoidtm and VEXtm robotics kits


CRAFT - Epilogtm 50W laser cutter; Amaya Bravo 16-thread CNC Embroidery Machine; Roland 24" Vinyl Cutter; Bernina Activa 230 Sewing Machine; MakerBot 3-D Printer


Facilities - Conference room with projector; project storage; project parts and material store; recycled parts and materials; large workbenches; hundreds of hand tools

I purchased a router with special adapter plates and cutting bits over the winter for a special project, cost was more than one day at Maker-Works. I'm sure it will sit around collecting dust until next time I need it. Speaking of dust that project ended up putting sawdust over everything in my basement from grinding and belt sanding. It would have been nice to make that mess in somebody else's place.


Individual: $35/day, $90/month, $900/year Family: $90/month for first person + $45 each additional person (15 years and younger are free) Small Business: $80/month per person, $800/year per person

I'm just thinking that this type of business can help get a custom car body started.

What do you think?

I'll report back after the Open House visit.

[acmonster]

@Kach22i Definitely report back. I live in the area, and am very interested in this. Not just for custom car stuff, but many other projects. Sounds awesome.

[Oppenheimer]

I heard a show on NPR the other day about 'collaborative consumption'. The basic idea is there are things we buy that we only use occasionally, expensive, big things. A group of people could buy one, and share. An example given was a snow blower. Neighbors all chip in, a fund for gas and maintenance, decide whose house it lives at, etc. I didn't think this was such a great example since, although its not needed often, when it is needed, everyone in the collaboration all need it at the same time.

The example I was thinking of while listening was some special tool needed for a specific repair for a specific car. Guys on a forum all chip in, ship to whoever needs it when that repair is needed.

Anyway, it strikes me that this Maker Works place is a form of enterprise based collaborative consumption. I like it. My garage isn't very big, and wife doesn't like the mess and odor associated with DIY repairs and such. So I've been thinking of finding a bunch of local guys with similar needs, and finding a warehouse type space we could rent collaboratively. We could stock with tools like compressor, shop press, bench grinder, drill press, etc. You'd bring your own hand tools (too easy to lose track of those and blame associated with who took them).

It occured to me this could even be a business, setup similar to Maker Works (which I hadn't heard of before, hoping they come this way).

[D2W]

Anyway, it strikes me that this Maker Works place is a form of enterprise based collaborative consumption. I like it. My garage isn't very big, and wife doesn't like the mess and odor associated with DIY repairs and such. So I've been thinking of finding a bunch of local guys with similar needs, and finding a warehouse type space we could rent collaboratively. We could stock with tools like compressor, shop press, bench grinder, drill press, etc. You'd bring your own hand tools (too easy to lose track of those and blame associated with who took them).

It occured to me this could even be a business, setup similar to Maker Works (which I hadn't heard of before, hoping they come this way).

I've been thinking about a business like this for a while now. Rent or buy a wharehouse and stock it with all the big purchase items: welders, drill press, air compressor, ect. Keep those items in a locked area with a key code access so you know who's been using it when stuff shows up missing. Rent "workspace" area for guys who don't have space of their own or wives who don't want them taking up the whole garage. Each workspace could be fenced off from the others so you know nobody is taking your things. You pay by the amount of space you want.

[olpro]

This it a great business model and I hope it spreads. I have occasionally thought of enrolling in a night college class for the same reason - access to equipment and tools. I presume that they will train people before turning them loose on the equipment. Otherwise, it will go down hill fast (blood causes surface rust on machines).

[thebeerbaron]

one of the few perks of my short tenure as a gubmint employee was access to the base's "Auto Skills Center". After a 5 minute video and a 30 second lecture delivered deadpan from memory by a completely bored employee, you were given access to the shop: lift bays of all sorts, Snap-On hand tools, compressed air, and pretty much every specialized tool imaginable. They took your ID and wrote you a receipt for every tool you took out (the basic hand tools came on a rolling plywood trolley with hooks and outlines so you could quickly see when a socket or wrench was missing). There were experienced mechanics there to point out the obvious if you got stuck and tell you when you were being unsafe. They took all fluids for safe disposal. I swapped the shocks on my Miata there one day. A lift, plenty of good lighting, air tools, and a bench-mounted spring compressor made the job not quite blissful, but a lot better than rolling around in gravel and working with "death sticks".

Unfortunately, I suspect a military base is one of the few places you can pull this off. The liability concerns alone must be astronomical. The first time I used a torque stick to tighten down my lug nuts, I did it wrong and lost 2 out of 4 on two wheels. If I were a bigger, more litigious idiot, I could have lost two wheels, smashed into a school bus full of orphans, and run to an ambulance chasing lawyer. My suspicion is that that lawyer would have a much easier time extracting money from a corporate entity providing this service than the feds. Also, I think people using the center were better behaved than most. Sure, there were plenty of idiots and jerks, but this was a revokable privilege and I suspect at least for the younger guys that the staff could make one phone call and put them in hot water. But maybe I'm imagining things.

Now that I think about it some more, I think that Click and Clack (of NPR fame) used to run a garage on this principle. Then they found themselves "helping out" their clients so much that they just gave up and did all the work themselves.

It's an interesting idea (D2W's and Maker Works), but one that depends entirely too much (IMHO) on the good behavior of the participants. How do you foster that sort of behavior and keep it going year after year? Answer that and you may have a winner (if you can solve the legal issues).

[kach22i]

A good article with photos on the means and methods Lamborghini uses to put cars and concepts together.


Peek Inside the Lamborghini Factory
by Basem Wasef
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/08/peek-inside-the-lamborghini-factory-2/?pid=1224&viewall=true

Three-dimensional renderings were altered for different colors and lighting environments, and scale models "printed" from those files using a device that uses lasers to cut plastic. Computational fluid-dynamic calculations were enacted to finesse aerodynamics and engine cooling, and the whole car was essentially assembled on a virtual level before it took physical form..

[Oppenheimer]

Spot on about the liability issues. Which is why I was originally thinking more along the lines of collaborative consumption of a bunch of local guys supporting the endeavor, and its not a business, just a place to work on your own car.

But thinking about it, maybe that is how you get past the liability stuff, you make it a 'club' that you have to join, and you 'own' a share of all the equipment. Club memberships can be for a year, a week, even a day. But then if its a club I'm not sure it can be a $ making business. But if it gives the 'founding' members a self sustaining place to work on their cars, it could be worth it.

I was also thinking a place like AutoZone would find this appealing, especially in an urban areas where there might be more people that wanted to work on their own cars (and would buy parts from them), but don't have a space to. Of course, if they give any sort of material support to it, they have a liability that their corporate lawyers would probably never allow.

One thing that could be borrowed from these sorts of parts supermarkets is their 'tool rental' program. You 'buy' the tool from the DIY garage, then return it. You lose it, you break it, you own it.

Lets 'collaborate', come up with ways around the liability issues (if possible), and start a company together. We can open a chain of these places.

[riptide motorsport]

Nice memories.

[bromikl]

But thinking about it, maybe that is how you get past the liability stuff, you make it a 'club' that you have to join, and you 'own' a share of all the equipment. Club memberships can be for a year, a week, even a day. But then if its a club I'm not sure it can be a $ making business. But if it gives the 'founding' members a self sustaining place to work on their cars, it could be worth it.
...Lets 'collaborate', come up with ways around the liability issues (if possible), and start a company together. We can open a chain of these places.

We have one in Milwaukee. It's been a collection of 10-20 tinkerers for decades, and they spent years finding and (recently) opening an actual location. I intend to assemble my 818 there.

http://milwaukeemakerspace.org/faq

[bobzdar]

The easiest/cheapest way I've seen to go from CAD model to mold is to take the CAD model, break it up into 2" thick slices length wise, then have them all plotted life sized. Then, take 2" thick foam sheets and cut the foam out to the pattern on each plotted paper and put them all together. Then you have a rough surface to start with and you can sand the foam, coat it with filler, sand and then prime and get it to a nice smooth finish. This becomes the body buck for your mold, so you lay it up with fiberglass in sections that make sense and they are your molds. The nice thing about this is you then have the molds to make spares or multiple copies. If this doesn't make sense, I can try to find where I saw this done, but it was either on the locost forums or dsrforums. There's no way around it being a lot of work, but this is the best way to get it from CAD to a real surface without paying multiple grand to have a foam buck made.

[olpro]

Maybe the cheapest but the easiest? I doubt it, most people would not be able to make a decent plug by means of this extremely high skill, high effort method.

[bobzdar]

It doesn't require any extraordinary skill, just a lot of time and effort. The part that requires the skill is designing the body. The only replacement for time and effort on something like this is dollars, I would love to see rapid prototyping on a 1/1 scale for cheap, but I don't think it's doable. I'm looking at building a DSR and if there was some easy and cheap way to go about building a full car body, I haven't seen it. They've come up with cheap ways, but not easy. It takes a lot of effort, no way around that unless you feel like ponying up 50k or so.

This is the quickest way I've seen for the home builder to go from CAD model to body molds. It's a lot quicker (and at least as accurate) as trying to do a clay model or carving it out of a solid foam block or using some combination of wood and filler to mock it up.

[olpro]

Clay done correctly can be very accurate, to less than a mm. Of course one needs a good modeling setup, a temp controlled environment and the right tools. Decent industrial clay is also rather expensive and the model will be heavy even with a proper metal, wood and foam armature.

[thebeerbaron]

I have not the energy to wade through all the posts, but the folks over at Palatov Motorsports (http://dpcars.net/) went from computer to foam buck on one of their projects, IIRC. I do not expect it was cheap, but this started out as one guy with some experience and desire to learn. Now it's something much bigger.

[flyboy2160]

the method described by bobzdar was pioneered by burt rutan back in the 80s for his aircraft kits. it doesn't require very much skill, but it is very, very messy and very time consuming. and it's not for those who don't like getting itchy stuff all over them.

[RonSchofield]

The easiest/cheapest way I've seen to go from CAD model to mold is to take the CAD model, break it up into 2" thick slices length wise, then have them all plotted life sized. Then, take 2" thick foam sheets and cut the foam out to the pattern on each plotted paper and put them all together. Then you have a rough surface to start with and you can sand the foam, coat it with filler, sand and then prime and get it to a nice smooth finish. This becomes the body buck for your mold, so you lay it up with fiberglass in sections that make sense and they are your molds. The nice thing about this is you then have the molds to make spares or multiple copies. If this doesn't make sense, I can try to find where I saw this done, but it was either on the locost forums or dsrforums. There's no way around it being a lot of work, but this is the best way to get it from CAD to a real surface without paying multiple grand to have a foam buck made.

This is how I make my half hulls from hull lines. I just make the individual layers and glue them together and shape them until they are proper.

[kach22i]

I did something similar to make my hovercraft tail cone.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/hovercraft-experimental-skirt-project-11973-2.html
3424

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/hovercraft-experimental-skirt-project-11973-3.html
3425

I had problems fitting fine enough fiberglass cloth at the tip of the cone. Complex shapes take special knowledge, experience, materials, and tools.

Keeping a lot of foam in the construction may help with impacts/crashes.

[kach22i]

I make clay covered cars by shaping blocks of blue foam as well.

Messy, messy, messy.

Microballoons in epoxy can form a paste which is fairly lightweight, strong and shapes easily. I would consider using this over making molds for a "one-off".

[kach22i]

@Kach22i Definitely report back. I live in the area, and am very interested in this. Not just for custom car stuff, but many other projects. Sounds awesome.

The report:
The owner Tom is a cool guy, 40-ish and not giving up his day job in the catering business just yet.

The shop is not yet fully outfitted, but still has lots of great tools and work stations.

Insurance policy on storage and use of volatile chemicals (varnish/paint) is cost prohibitive, so finish it at home.

You need to get checked out on special equipment like the CNC machine, an extra $15 or so for the tutoring/class.

You can make a big mess with wood dust, they are installing a central vacuum system, but styrofoam sanding looks like it will be a no-no.

Several garage doors allow you to pull in and unload supplies. There are storage rooms, which will have lockers in them.

I think that if you are going to open one of these yourself, get radio ads and full press releases going. Also, don't open until everything is ready to go, like the central vacuum system. Also, invite some of your friends over to work on their projects while the tours are taking place, that way people can see the equipment in action and how it works. Tom did not do this, and the atmosphere was good for discussion, but not much else. Guess that made the safety factor high though. We still all put on safety glasses before entering the heavy shop area with lathes and stuff.

As I was hoping, to will meet others with similar interest there (networking). I met the draftsperson for a local high-end builder who was taking the tour with his son. I gave him my card, never know when they need a architect (w/seal) for a project.

Tools: the hand tools are not checked out, it's the honor system with a twist. There is another nearby business specializing in video security. They have installed a system which detects when a tool is missing and notifies the supervisor when it is gone for a longer than usual period. I don't know if they go hunting for the mislaid tool at that point, or start looking at video footage for the last user.

The monthly deal looks attractive, but like a gym membership is only as good as you are willing to take advantage of.

[kach22i]

Alright, if some of you liked the idea of a fabric skinned car, then how do you feel about gold foil over PVC pipes with duct tape?

Ferdinand GT3 RS - Roadtrip........worlds slowest Porsche
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjEKi9D2hh0&feature=player_detailpage
<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MjEKi9D2hh0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

EDIT:
http://www.odditycentral.com/pics/dude-builds-the-worlds-slowest-porsche.html

The Ferdinand GT3 RS may look a lot like a Porsche roadster, but as we all know, appearances can often be deceiving. I’m not even sure we can call this thing a car, considering it doesn’t even have an engine, but it’s definitely an interesting concept. The Ferdinand GT3 RS weighs an astounding 99.63 kilograms, which is lighter than any other working car, but that means all the “unnecessary” components were left out. The body of this home-made sports car is made of plastic tubes, and the wheels are so slim they wouldn’t even fit on a bicycle.
http://www.odditycentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Ferdinand-GT3-RS4.jpg
http://www.odditycentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Ferdinand-GT3-RS5.jpg
http://www.odditycentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Ferdinand-GT3-RS6.jpg
http://www.odditycentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Ferdinand-GT3-RS13.jpg
http://www.odditycentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Ferdinand-GT3-RS14.jpg
http://www.odditycentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Ferdinand-GT3-RS15.jpg

[kach22i]

More:.............99.63 kilograms (219.6 lbs)
http://www.skitzone.com/2010/homemade-bike-porsche-ferdinand-gt3-rs/
http://www.skitzone.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Ferdinand_GT3_RS16.jpg
http://www.skitzone.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Ferdinand_GT3_RS31.jpg
http://www.skitzone.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Ferdinand_GT3_RS34.jpg

[olpro]

The Fabric car?
These are some recent cad studies for a fabric covered body, done for a Mendeola/Beetle chassis and 2.5L Suburu engine. They are very rough studies of course, to just explore design possibilities. Lots of holes and unresolved areas.348234833484
The fabric body sections have to be very flat (between formers) and it is difficult to design around this limitation. Still I think there is potential for this concept. The windshield surrounds are from an earlier model (done in fiberglass) which is probably what I would do, even though the rest of the body would be canvas or polyester fabric over tubing, ala the golden age airplanes.

[kach22i]

Nice rough study oldpro.

I found this doing a search on the topic, lots of drawings and a few photos.

Fabric Body Corp., 1923-1928; Detroit, Michigan
http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/f/fabric/fabric.htm

Childs had been experimenting with. fabric bodies since 1919, first with California-type tops for open touring cars, then closed bodies.

...............By the late Twenties too, painting techniques had become so refined that the fabric body offered no savings in construction time over the standard metal production body.
.................................................. ............................................


http://gaboats.com/
Pictured below, the remarkable 8-pound SweetPea™ can carry a 150+ pound person.
3485
Holding the SweetPea with one hand is long time boat designer and inventor, Platt Monfort.

.................................................. ........................

I've found this two page thread interesting, some good information, names and a few photos too.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=183868&page=2
3486

[acmonster]

Thanks for the report Kach22i! I will hopefully make my way out there soon. I'd love to use the CNC machine to make some DIY speakers.

[Oppenheimer]

http://www.odditycentral.com/pics/du...t-porsche.html

That is just hilarious. At first sight of the 'chassis' I thought it was a 4 wheeled bicycle, but then I realized no pedals, this is Fred Flintstones Porsche! In one of the street pics you can see the guys feet on the ground.

Someone with way too much time...

[kach22i]

http://www.odditycentral.com/pics/du...t-porsche.html

That is just hilarious. At first sight of the 'chassis' I thought it was a 4 wheeled bicycle, but then I realized no pedals, this is Fred Flintstones Porsche! In one of the street pics you can see the guys feet on the ground.

Someone with way too much time...

The link does not work.

[olpro]

One more fabric body study (see post #63).

3497

[kach22i]

Hard to weed though the jabber in this blog and get to anything technical. Still, interesting use of materials.

http://colonial-diaspora.blogspot.com/2009_05_01_archive.html
3567
3568
3569

[olpro]

Roll benders? What do you know?
Most tube bending is straight-tight radius-straight. This will not work for a fabric covered body where the outlines of the form (bent tubing) have to be smooth large radius curves, constantly CHANGING. To make it more complicated, some tubing would have to be bent in a three dimensional manner, like the frame around a production windshield.
Anybody know about this subject, having actually done it?

[kach22i]

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/2011-prius-get-full-boat-tail-w-faired-17087-2.html#post236132


FYI, the diesel trike that's been to a few of the Green Grand Prix events at Watkins Glen is cedar strip construction:

http://i39.tinypic.com/25kmz68.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/2rc7ihl.jpg

From: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/watkins-glen-ny-green-grand-prix-sat-may-7961.html

[fiaroadster]

http://techshop.ws/ Very cool place

[kach22i]

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/heat-shrink-window-film-body-mods-18584.html

The whole body of the Westfield iRacer (http://www.evcup.com/cars/westfield) is made of heatshrink film over thin formers. It's really quite cunning, but I imagine it'll have a few people put their hands through it...

http://rumors.automobilemag.com/quietest-race-ev-cup-launches-first-all-electric-racing-series-43817.html/westfield-iracer-ev-cup-race-car-profile/
http://www.westfield-sportscars.co.uk/
3702

Geneva 2010: Westfield iRACER exposed sporting spandex, not embarrassed
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/03/03/geneva-2010-westfield-iracer-exposed-sporting-spandex-not-emba/
3703

polyurethane-polyurea copolymer stretched across its angular aluminum frame serves as a strong yet lightweight covering for the lean body of the purpose-built machine

http://www.worldcarfans.com/110030424927/westfield-iracer-electric-vehicle-unveiled-in-geneva/lowphotos#0
3704

"The use of materials such as fabrics has limited scope for road use, but has major benefits for racing," says Paul Faithfull, iRacer project manager. "Imagine being able to change your bodywork in a matter of minutes, with a new body stretched over the framework, changing the colour, sponsors or just effecting rapid repairs. It is also extremely light compared to almost all alternative materials."

Read more: http://www.worldcarfans.com/110030424927/westfield-iracer-electric-vehicle-unveiled-in-geneva#ixzz1WAQHg5SC

[riptide motorsport]

Not a fan of the fabrics

[olpro]

George, thanks for posting that. It’s one I hadn’t seen and it looks like they are fairly creative with the forms they can get with that material (Spandex).
I suspect that the better material to use is Stits fabric (polyester) or something like it. It can be heat shrunk 5–10 percent to form compound forms and is up to the aerodynamic forces a car would encounter. You can read more about it at:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cs/polyfiber_fabric.html
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cs/polyfiber.html
I am continuing my study for a fabric body and it looks quite promising in terms of development costs and maybe even aesthetics. It is rather hard to cad model such designs but maybe I will post something later.

[kach22i]

George, thanks for posting that. It’s one I hadn’t seen....................

Now that I have my mind on the topic it's pretty easy to remember to come back here after a discovery and post the find. Stuff is out there, just have to keep an open eye.

There are several models of hovercraft by Sevtec which use aircraft fabric coverings. I flew in one once, just have to be careful not to push down on that part.

[kach22i]

http://www.charlottemotorspeedway.com/media/news/549530.html
3732


"I figured that if England could build a 415-mph airplane 70 years ago out of laminated plywood and primitive glue, then I should be able to use composite wood technologies and modern adhesives to create a rigid and reliable 200-mph automobile," said Harmon.......................

To create the 21st century body, Harmon's team ran 60-foot strips of cherry veneer through a homemade slicing machine powered by a 1,000-pound hand-cranked winch attached to the trailer hitch of a pickup truck. The one-eighths-inch-wide strips were then fed into a custom-built wood loom, resulting in a strong woven mat. Harmon combined those large mats, other wood veneers, vacuum pressure and Space-Age epoxy to produce the car's superlight exterior panels in body molds he made from a full-size Splinter mockup............................

Harmon and the Splinter group worked seven days a week for two years to complete the project, which earned him a "pass" for his pass/fail graduate studies. As Harmon predicted, building a wooden car from scratch was a good résumé builder - he was immediately hired by Corvid Technologies in Mooresville, an engineering company with projects ranging from car design to aerodynamic development.

[kach22i]

I'm not sure if I've posted this one already, some nice work going on.

carben-model-1-24th-scale-model-3d-computer
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/carben-model-1-24th-scale-model-3d-computer-11969.html

Also just keep clicking "NEXT" on this link (from the thread above), pretty cool.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/CarBEN%20EV%20Concept/?action=view&current=Screenshot2011-08-30at83721AM.png

[mekeys]

I'm not sure if I've posted this one already, some nice work going on.

carben-model-1-24th-scale-model-3d-computer
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/carben-model-1-24th-scale-model-3d-computer-11969.html

Also just keep clicking "NEXT" on this link (from the thread above), pretty cool.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/CarBEN%20EV%20Concept/?action=view¤t=Screenshot2011-08-30at83721AM.png

I just clicked view all lots faster that way

[olpro]

This fabric covered design starts with tube framing, either steel or aluminum, which supports the fabric. The images show the perimeter but none of the connecting framing that would be required. Not completed at this point is the separate framing for moving panels such as a hood or engine cover.
The manikin is an SAE 50 percentile American male.
3763

[olpro]

Fabric surfaces are necessarily limited to flat sections, with the exception of areas where heat shrinking will pull it to a subtle hyperbolic paraboloid.
Finishes can vary from matte to high gloss.
Weight should be minimal, especially if aluminum tubing is used.
In a few places, fiberglass parts would be used (windshield surround, side scoops, etc.). The interior close-offs including wheel houses would also have to be hard materials. Windshield is based on general measurements of a Chevy Aveo.
This rear engine design would allow for 2+2 seating. OAH is at 46”, a little less than the FFR template but reasonable.
3764376537663767

[kach22i]

This rear engine design would allow for 2+2 seating.
There are several cases of Subaru engines now powering 912's and 911's (formerly air-cooled variants), is this the same type of installation you had in mind?

I really like your design, something about how clean and simple it looks, and with little adornment is appealing to me.

[crackedcornish]

This rear engine design would allow for 2+2 seating.
3764376537663767

and wheelies!

[olpro]

http://mendeolamotors.com/motors/index.php?option=com_joomgallery&func=viewcategory&catid=1&Itemid=103
I understand they have achieved about a 45-55 weight distribution with this arrangement. I wouldn't try a (heavier) six but the turbo fours would be fine, the car pulling over 1g in the corners. Remember a Meyers Manx once cleaned up at Pikes Peak, beating everything else. I don't know what powered it.
On dune buggies, wheelies are cool but not probably on the road... In any case, this arrangement seems to have worked out okay for the 911, for years and years in racing.

By the way George, thanks for the nice comments.

[olpro]

Here is an earlier pix with a rear occupant in place.
Although this is a possibility, I would never suggest it other than in an emergency. For one thing, it seems inconsistent to have 2+2 seating in a roadster with no doors/ hop over the side access.
3797. Second, in any version with weather protection, it is (obviously) not going to work out very well for the sap in the back :)

[bromikl]

Here is an earlier pix with a rear occupant in place.

Without being able to see through the body, it looks like the driver has bookoo leg room and the passenger is riding the engine. With the 95 inch wheelbase, a 2+2 should be possible, but the driver will need to move forward quite a bit.

Do you have a transparent image or frame view?

[kach22i]

Reminds me of an Rumble Seat.

http://local.aaca.org/hvpr/html/Youth_GrandchildrenA.html
3798

http://www.amcpacer.com/stories/jeni/kenosha2002.asp
3799

[mekeys]

Hurray finally started posting pictures of the 700 ,First batch up today..

[olpro]

Without being able to see through the body, it looks like the driver has bookoo leg room and the passenger is riding the engine. With the 95 inch wheelbase, a 2+2 should be possible, but the driver will need to move forward quite a bit.

Do you have a transparent image or frame view?
This layout drawing shows the driver in the full rearward position, with the rear passenger crammed in. These both are American 50th percentile manikins but front legroom is consistent with a 95% manikin.
Obviously, with a 2+2 seating package, the front occupants can be expected to track their seats forward a bit, especially if there are adults in the back.
The SAE manikin is not set up to show that people can spread their legs a little to avoid the seat in front of them – so there is some interference with the seat (if it were shown). Also the Beetle pedal position could be modified to improve the legroom situation.
Please be assured that I would not consider this a decent four place package. On the other hand there are cars out there like this - I have been stuffed in the back of some of them :).
3800

[bromikl]

I may be mistaken, but if that's a Subaru engine/transmission back there, isn't it facing the wrong way? What did I miss?

[olpro]

This one is done on a Beetle pan, rear engined not mid. The Subaru would be driving a beefed up 091 VW bus transaxle. Of course the engine and trans are faked because it is impossible to get a decent drawing of either.

Post 81: '.... This rear engine design would.....'

[kach22i]

Is that a radiator up front?

What's it for?

I love the overlay, grid background and all.

[crackedcornish]

Is that a radiator up front?

What's it for?

I love the overlay, grid background and all.

it's still using Subaru power, so it still needs a radiator

[kach22i]

it's still using Subaru power, so it still needs a radiator
I thought it was both a VW Beetle pan, and engine.

Thought it could be an oil cooler, or A/C condenser.

http://mendeolamotors.com/motors/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=138%3Apowertrain&catid=1%3Alatest-news&Itemid=27

I see Ford and Chevy engines listed in the link above, not what I expected.

[kach22i]

I just wanted olpro to see this template work I've played with.................should be at least a little interesting to him.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/LOTUS-EAGLE-VS-FFR-TEMPLATE.jpg

EDIT: Here it is without my mark-up mucking it all up.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/lotus-evora2.jpg

[olpro]

Thanks George.
I had been looking for a seating package like that. The ones I had were all much higher (what would you expect from production Nissans?). In lowering my manikin, I had to fake the steering wheel location and forward vision lines, which that package includes.
It also shows a good radiator location.

[kach22i]

DIY CNC Router with Downloadable Drawings
http://www.grabercars.com/content/view/67/2/

These cnc router plans are free no strings attached. See below if you want the original files in either Solidworks or IGES format.

This information has been COPIED here from a popular thread in my Grabercars forum. The CAD plans to build your own cnc router table are being made available to the general public for free.

If you want to see some photos of what Jim has built so far, please visit Image Gallery Here . Hopefully I will be able to update with more photos as Jim gets them to me.

Jim from Australia writes:
I use a CNC 5-axis router for making Foam Plugs. The machine is scratch built and the cutting area is 3m * 3m * 2m. I use the machine for building aircraft and boat molds. All up it cost me about $3000 AUD ($1500 US) to build. The router is a classic Gantry style unit. The slides are made using 2 pieces of equal angle to form an X with bearings between them. The XYZ axis is driven via a threaded rod suspended on each end with a pillow block bearing. I machined the threaded rod to attach a sprocket and ran a chain drive to a stepper motor. The router motor is a 17turn RC car motor running on 12V with a PWM speed control.
3966

[kach22i]

I'm told this skin is ordinary 3M window film, I'll have to verify that later. Take a look, it's pretty cool.

http://minddrive.org/

[olpro]

A very interesting site and projects.

[olpro]

I was going to create a new thread for this subject but, since it is really about the “design process”, I thought it would fit into this already existing & informative thread started by George. I hope that is okay.

(This post contains a lot of fussy detail and may be very boring for many people. On the other hand, if you are having trouble sleeping, this may be perfect for you)
---------------------------------------------
The FFR templates have been a subject of much discussion, some of which was leaning toward minimizing their importance and ultimately their value.
I have taken the opposite view, that indeed the templates were essential to a quality result and, if anything, they were too vague and flexible. This post is an attempt to address this subject in detail, NOT as an argument but simply as an explanation of this thing here called a “template” and how it generally works in the industry’s design processes.

First of all, in the industry, the common term would be ‘layout drawing’ or ’LO’ drawing (‘template’ actually has a specific and different connotation – which is somewhat in contradiction to the FFR desire to not inhibit the designers in their efforts).
The layout drawing (also called the ‘package’) is the responsibility of the engineers who are defining the project in terms of components, sizes and general seating, etc. It would include wheel locations, wheel and tire options, various ride heights (design, curb, show room, etc.) These last items will result in the ‘ground’ line being shown in several different positions and attitudes. Static load ratings on the tires relates to the different ground planes because tires ‘squish’ differently. This is important to show when considering the stance of a design relative to the world, as well as a factor in wheel/body clearances which might also be shown on the LO.
Bumper heights and offsets, lamp heights, ramp angles, etc. are all related to the ground planes. Variations in wheels, tires, bumper systems and ride options can play hell with these height sensitive requirements.
Mechanical clearances are shown with regard to the selected engine(s), suspension parts, radiator, fuel tank and fillers, and so forth. Luggage space and air openings may be shown, in terms of desired locations and areas.

THE major concern of a LO is the people who must fit in the vehicle. Engines and suspensions can be redesigned but not people. Of course the LO engineers can select the specific people they want to ‘package’. This is usually done with respect to sex, percentile and sometimes even racial characteristics (i.e. 95% American Male, 50% Japanese Female, etc.). Also keep in mind that a 60% tall man can have a 75% torso length and 30% legs, etc. It gets complicated. The nature of the vehicle sets the seating package because of age, entry/exit requirements, etc. A sports car designer can assume things a passenger car designer cannot, in terms of seating issues. A sporty sedan or coupe will be done with the assumption that the folks in the back seat are not wookies. A good LO drawing will show not only the seating positions but maybe entry-exit envelopes. It may show ‘reach’ issues such as shifters (automatics and the various manual options, maybe even 4WD shifters – all shown in their multiple positions), dash controls and certainly steering. It will show vision requirements for gauges, mirror locations, direct forward and rearward vision angles. It will show head clearance bogies for header and headliner, usually for the different sized occupants. If engineering sections are available, showing the welded steel box section for a windshield header for example, this will be shown and how it affects the head clearances. Much of this relates primarily to interiors but exteriors are impacted.

The basic reference point for the seating manikin is the H-point (hip point) and everything is related to this. Seat heights to the floor & ground planes, back angles, etc. are all measured from the H-point. Since most vehicles have sliding seats, the H-point is shown at different places. Normally the seat track slopes down at the back so the taller driver (who probably has longer legs) will be lower to the floor, preserving headroom for him/her.
Most LOs I have seen will have special factors shown, according to the specific design program. Often this has to do with Carry Over parts because most programs are not all new from the ground up. Door handles, etc. can be moved around but each has its own maddening little requirements and clearances.

With the advent of computer drafting, it is easy to select whatever lines on whatever components the LO engineer wishes to include on the drawing. The designer doesn’t want all the lines & info but it is time consuming to edit out the critical edges of a strut tower so the engineer shows the whole thing and the drawing starts to look like a big hairball.
A lot of the engineer/designer negotiations have to do with the clearances that are required. A hood must clear the battery but by how much? What is an acceptable space for an assembly worker (or owner) to install a bulb? These things usually affect the exterior surfaces of the car.
The government in its wisdom has not simplified the design process. Many things are the result of some Senate committee or bureaucratic agency responding to some specific issue. A child was run over at a stop light in Japan because a SUV driver didn’t see him. The result was a complicated set of vision requirements - mandatory in Japan but, because of import-export issues, also affecting the world. Severe European standards for pedestrian safety must be accommodated everywhere if the product might be sold worldwide. Various states may even have specific needs, not necessarily in the law but still worth knowing about (i.e. rear glass fouling in bad weather climates).
On a production car, particularly a front drive, the cowl is the most complicated and fought over area on the LO drawing. Cross car structures, HVAC, engine bay parts, instrument panel components, windshield mounting & wiper locations are all competing for space. A high cowl which is jammed back toward the driver is a bad, bad thing for appearance, especially when combined with a windshield header location that is high and forward and little wheels. The high cowl results in a high H-point and roof. The cowl is not only the most complicated area on these cars, it is the most critical to design appearance. If ignored during initial design selection, the chickens will come home to roost later and the car will be a toad.

A basic feature of the LO drawing is the reference system - which is a numerical grid with assumptions on what is ‘level’ and what are the ‘zero’ points from which to measure. This varies from company to company but often the zero line for up-down measurements is around (and parallel to) the SILL of the vehicle. This is usually called the Z axis. The side to side reference (Y axis) is the longitudinal centerline. The fore-aft reference line may be at the front wheel centerline - or maybe a point forward of the front bumper (this latter approach is intended to keep measurement numbers positive). The ground line is never parallel to the grid or at least it seems that way. The grid provides a universal measurement system for all engineers and designers and is indispensable throughout the process, from concept to collision repair.

[olpro]

Continued from above...

Generally the designers start a project with a preliminary LO which has at least some elementary information. Since they are doing freehand sketches, liberties will be taken – sometimes to the point where the sketch is not only useless but misleading and dangerous. Therefore, cool design ideas are then taken, by the designers, to an accurate side view with the current LO drawing as an underlay. In my heyday, this was done as a TAPE drawing, first in ¼ scale, ultimately in full scale. Cheating was still possible but the evidence was apparent for all to see. Even in this digital age, a tape drawing (done with black map tape over a printout of the package) is a great way to ‘test’ a design and make improvements that actually work with the real proportions of the vehicle. A designer will learn what the proportions are, and will find ways of manipulating the lines and forms to enhance and work with them, rather than ignoring them to the detriment of the design.
Selections for 3D modeling (usually in ¼ scale) are made from the side view tape drawings because the sketches are misleading. The artistic talent level of designers, in terms of dramatic and flashy rendering, varies so much that a realistic selection must come from a dimensionally reliable tape drawing. It is an honor in most studios to have your design selected to go to the tape drawing stage, and any designer is going to want to control that process before turning the design over to someone else for further development.
Over the course of my forty year career (for two major auto companies), I have been involved in at least that many design programs. I have been a staff designer, a studio assistant who has to follow the model’s progress, a chief designer in charge of the team and, later, a teacher at a major design university with numerous former students currently working in the industry.
Although many of those vehicles were significant and successful products – worthy of pride, it is not those programs which most inform my opinions on the best process to follow. Rather it is the projects that were not successful that provided the important lessons (and there were many such projects).
The most common downfall for those programs that didn’t work out so well was the tendency to select designs early on, fall in love with them and not see what was really happening as they were developed. Unfortunately the necessary changes are not always faced up to and the result is (literally) not a pretty sight. The concept sketches still look great but the final car is not so hot. Keep in mind this still happens with experienced professional designers running things.

Of course a good LO drawing for a contest like this one doesn’t require nearly as much detail as it would in a company design studio. Even in a college class setting, the LO is quite minimal, and subject to student ‘invention” (except maybe for the manikin size). Nonetheless, any of these fussy little package details can rear its ugly head in a given situation and ruin a vehicle.

I will try to find and post some examples of LO drawings and vehicles designed to them. In the meantime, any additions, comments and observations are certainly welcome.

[Evan78]

Great post, thanks for taking the time to share. Looking forward to more.

[kach22i]

I will try to find and post some examples of LO drawings and vehicles designed to them. In the meantime, any additions, comments and observations are certainly welcome.

I think you should follow up with drawing examples (as you have mentioned doing), I had to look up COWL for instance just to make sure I hand in mind the same thing as you. RE: SILL of the vehicle. This is usually called the Z axis.........a drawing would be worth a thousand words here too.

It would be nice if you could put your name and a little Copyright symbol on it and make it a downloadable PDF. I can see such a booklet being used in a starter course at CCS or some other design college. You could always ask for a small donation in lieu of charging per download.

You might also have the start of a good design text book here.

[D2W]

Great post Oldpro full of useful information. Maybe now those people who argued against templates can see where you are coming from.

[mekeys]

Thanks to olpro we have a crash course on Automotive Design 101.Very concise and lots of information.

Mel

[PhyrraM]

I don't think anybody thought that 'oldPro was wrong in a technical sense. He's proven many times over that he knows what he's doing.

What was the crux of the issue was the "spirit" of the competition and Dave's wishes for it vs. the actual needs of designing a car. Dave (and FFR) was looking for a way to involve the community and gather ideas and direction. FFR already has a strong handle on the technical needs and really didn't need "to the tee" designs, hence Dave's empassioned direction to keep the contest open to as many folks as possible.

[olpro]

PhyrraM, this level of detail is certainly not for everyone and definitely goes beyond any contest resource material. As to FFR's strong handle on this kind of stuff, I really don't know what they know. The "templates" they did come up with don't seem to indicate a deep understanding of basic manikin and seating geometries. Remember the vehicles they have made so far came from existing designs for the most part. The one exception to that was done by a seat-of-the pants method -which is probably okay since individual owners will make mods as needed to fit inside.

[olpro]

This was a climb-over-the-side basic concept for four passengers. The underlying package LO drawing is actually for a small crossover type vehicle but it still provides some good reference so I used it.
It shows some package information on header sections at the windshield and rear hatch tops. A reference to the welded steel structure is shown, although the front one seems to be out of place.
There are two front headliner sections suggested. They are also out of place relative to the roof shown but probably correct as minimums with respect to the manikin and upward vision line. One would be a guesstimate of a headliner at the vehicle centerline, the lower one at the outboard station where the driver is placed.
The manikins show some headroom arcs, one apparently at the actual head and the other showing a suggested headliner clearance. It looks like a lot of headroom but clearances like this are very arbitrary. On the other hand, people don’t like to hit their heads.
I don’t remember exactly why there are several rear manikins shown. Obviously I made my own selection and went with it.
You can see the front and rear direct vision lines showing minimum up and down angles. They are plotted from a point that appears to be ahead of the driver’s actual eyepoint but this is typical practice. A studio engineer could explain this but I couldn’t. These are direct vision lines. The angles to the indirect vision (mirrors) are not shown.
The cowl section at the windshield touchdown point is shown, with some hood and instrument panel top surface. Again it is confusing because the sections have been moved around to try to fit this particular application. The sections are called “typical” sections and are from some other (comparable) vehicle. They would eventually be redesigned to fit the actual new conditions as the program progresses.
“Typical” sections are valuable because they provide a good guess of what will be needed without waiting for the specific engineering to be completed.
You can see some floor structure information although it is mostly obscured. Nonetheless you can make out part of a spare tire behind the rear wheel and fuel tank in front of it. Also a bit of a muffler is there. Above the spare tire is some floor info and some hatch details.
There seems to be a bit of entry-exit criteria, lines suggesting a front and rear door opening, probably drawn at the actual weather seal line.
Note the lines showing two tire sizes and three ground planes. For my drawing, I ignored this information, creating my own tire sizes and ground plane.
The engine and radiator lines are obscured by the rendering.
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[rsmith]

Olpro, these are great posts. Thanks for spending the time to write them up.


I don't think anybody thought that 'oldPro was wrong in a technical sense. He's proven many times over that he knows what he's doing.
And that's quite clear from these posts.


What was the crux of the issue was the "spirit" of the competition and Dave's wishes for it vs. the actual needs of designing a car. Dave (and FFR) was looking for a way to involve the community and gather ideas and direction. FFR already has a strong handle on the technical needs and really didn't need "to the tee" designs, hence Dave's empassioned direction to keep the contest open to as many folks as possible.
I think PhyrraM is right about this. The competition was open to people with a wide range of skills and should not be viewed as part of what Olpro described as the design process above. It was a competition.


Great post Oldpro full of useful information. Maybe now those people who argued against templates can see where you are coming from. As one might be lumped into this group, I'd like to point out that my argument was not whether the templates should have been followed or whether they should have existed, just that they weren't required for the competition. That's still the case. But I'm going to stop beating this dead horse and say no more about it. Olpro has done something really helpful and constructive and that's a great direction to go in. Thanks for turning it back into a positive direction Olpro.

[olpro]

rsmith, your position was logical and well argued.
Thanks for your comments.

This is an example of student work (second year) and the package drawing is of some interest. You can see the rear engine ghosted under the vellum, the occupants (his rear passenger is sideways). The general assignment was to design a vehicle of any kind that fit the size box (very small).
This is a tape drawing and the lines can be changed and tuned until the designer is happy with them. The model is painted clay
To keep the students from branding their work as a Pontiac, Ferrari or some other car - with all the design baggage those kinds of brands would entail - they were forced to come up with some non-automotive brand to study and work to, in this case K2.
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[kach22i]

This is an example of student work (second year) ........(his rear passenger is sideways).
Impressive work (2nd yr or senior), and the sideways rear passenger tells me that he/she has been in the back seat of an old air-cooled 911 before.:o

[olpro]

Probably so. You won't catch me back there very often however.
This is another student from that same class. He did a snow rescue vehicle and currently works at GM Design Staff, I have heard.
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[olpro]

Here's another old LO drawing which shows some of the things mentioned earlier. I have to be a little careful in what I show here.
The front manikin is AM95 (AmericanMale 95%), shown with an AM95 head and a JM95 head (JapaneseMale 95%). Rear passengers are AM50 and AM95.
The double arcs on the front passenger head clearance probably show the condition to the headliner and to the sheet metal. By the way, we generally use INSIDE surface of sheet metal on drawings.
The eye “ellipse” is shown in use projecting instrument gauge vision angles.
The little detail at the left top shows the header sections (at Center Line and Drivers position) and mirror.
The heads are added to the official SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) manikin which has NO head. What that tells you about the SAE, I won’t conjecture.
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[kach22i]

Here is a way to make a car look more exotic.

Go from this deck lid:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5323611-just-picked-up-190hp-of-joy/page2&p=73883653
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To this clam hinge:
http://www.boefabrication.com/index.php?/boe/product/clamhinge
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Video in link above.

[D2W]

Here is a way to make a car look more exotic.

Go from this deck lid:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5323611-just-picked-up-190hp-of-joy/page2&p=73883653
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To this clam hinge:
http://www.boefabrication.com/index.php?/boe/product/clamhinge
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Video in link above.


That clamshell would also make it a breeze to get your beer out:)

[kach22i]

That clamshell would also make it a breeze to get your beer out:)
After watching that video, I'm not sure I could close that clamshell sober let alone after a few beers.

[olpro]

For the body design geeks who find this stuff interesting… and it is a slow day.

This pix shows a bit of the old bumper design criteria. The two bumper outlines show a high and low “hit” condition, for the standard government bumper pendulum. They are referenced to the ground(s) height, in this case the ground lines associated with the smaller tire size.
Say you are on the freeway and the guy in front of you hits his brakes hard – and they are better than yours. His rear rises under deceleration, your nose dives. Bumpers that might have been at a common height are no longer, as the vehicles come together. There are also vertical lines in there which have to do with fore-aft clearance which would vary with the bumper system and impact speed. I can’t remember how to interpret those lines.
The goal is to design a bumper section (at your design height) that picks up at least an inch or so of both the high and low pendulum hits. This inch overlap varies slightly depending on the materials – rubber doesn’t slip as much as chrome plated steel and is less likely to over ride or under ride.
The bumper standards try to take into account low speed impacts, which usually means parking situations. In the case of my freeway example, they still are only expected to account for maybe a five mph difference (two and half became more of the official standard later).
The pendulum also has an upper add-on thingy, not shown, which is not allowed to touch parts of the car above the bumper, especially safety related items like lamps. There are other criteria for how the pendulum is set up for a bumper test - i.e. at the centerline, 300mm outboard from centerline, a 30 degree corner hit, etc. Add in ‘build variations’ and the bumpers get even harder to manage.

I would never expect this kind of detail on a contest like FFR’s or a school project.
On the other hand, for those people who are concerned about protecting their cars from the dangers out there, these drawings might provide some relief, at least as far as where to anticipate the damage.

Bumper rules are an interesting subject for auto design history nuts. I remember when we went from the “chrome eyebrows” like on a classic Vette to the humungous bumpers, ala Ralph Nader - with 5mph capability. That was a huge change. The insurance companies all promised lower rates if the US Senate would just codify their worries into law. Didn’t happen of course. For one thing, the bumper might work at 5 mpg but at 7, you had to replace a much more expensive bumper.
It was all BS so they decided to go to a 2.5 mph standard instead. I don’t know what it is today but the advent of the SUV with a soccer mom driving it blew any possibility of expecting bumpers to really line up. The SUVs always over ride anything and no one wanted to meet these bumper heights with such a high vehicle - they would look stupid.
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[olpro]

Another post for the geeks.

This section shows more package criteria. The door section (expanded on the right) shows the glass plane and some sill section information. Also there is a OAWidth body wide line, not to exceed. The internal components, glass drop mechanism, door guard beam, handle mechanism, etc. are not shown. The door section seems fat but there is actually a lot of stuff to fit in there.
The manikin in front view is shown on the front (driver’s) seat (the rear passengers are outboard). Upper and downward vision suggestions are apparent in this view. Obviously a passenger car package like this is much more generous with headroom and head clearances than a performance car.
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[kach22i]

Along this same topic, which has interested me for many years, is this old thread in another forum.

Bumper mismatch can wreck your wallet
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/263214-bumper-mismatch-can-wreck-your-wallet.html

The original Yahoo business link is gone, but some of the comments are interesting. Below is the one I made.


The actual bumper on the Ford Expedition is the lower gray part - the top part is for looks. This is still way over a 911, but lines up with lower SUV's and large cars.

http://www.stillen.com/product_images/BG5085P.jpg

I think this was the original article from 2006.

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/auto/bumper-mismatch-can-wreck-your-wallet-1.aspx

Bumper mismatch can wreck your wallet
By Terry Jackson • Bankrate.com

Many Americans believe sport utility vehicles, or SUVs, and pickup trucks cause extensive damage to passenger cars when they collide just because they're bigger and heavier. While pure size may come into play, the real culprit in low-speed collisions may be the mismatch between the height of the bumpers on each.

SUVs, pickup trucks and minivans sold in the United States are not required by the federal government to have bumpers at all. And while many manufacturers do put bumpers on them, they typically do not match up with passenger cars which are required to have bumper systems placed in a range of 16 to 20 inches from the ground.

What's more, SUV and truck bumpers are usually pretty flimsy. "Most truck and SUV bumpers are purely decorative,'' says Russ Rader, a spokesman for the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety -- an insurance-industry-funded center that routinely does crash tests on a wide selection of vehicles.

Too high, too low
Years ago, this was not such an issue, but as the popularity of SUVs and pickups has soared, so has the problem of the mismatch.

What that could mean for consumers is an unexpectedly costly repair bill resulting from even the most minor of accidents.

Five years ago Rader's group subjected seven pickups and SUVs to 5 mph collisions and found that, even when equipped with bumpers, almost all sustained expensive damage. Damage back then ranged from more than $1,000 for a Chevrolet Silverado to more than $2,000 for a RAV4.

Manufacturers have criticized such tests as not being representative of real-world situations and say they ignore the overall safety features of vehicles. Rader acknowledges that the issue isn't safety-related -- bumpers usually have little to do with protecting occupants in a crash. "Bumpers really have little impact on safety. It's a cost thing,'' he says.

To illustrate the problem of bumper mismatch, the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, or IIHS, tested several passenger cars and SUVs with rear-end collisions at 10 miles an hour.
The tests involved the following cars in rear-end collisions:

Ford Taurus versus Ford Explorer (SUV)
Volvo S40 versus Volvo XC90 (SUV)
Dodge Stratus versus Jeep Grand Cherokee (SUV)
Nissan Altima versus Nissan Murano (SUV)
Toyota RAV4 (SUV) versus another Toyota RAV4 (SUV)
View the damage reports and the repair costs in the slideshow below.



Costly collisions: Crash tests of SUV and car bumpers


Read more: Bumper mismatch can wreck your wallet http://www.bankrate.com/finance/auto/bumper-mismatch-can-wreck-your-wallet-1.aspx#ixzz1a8K4J5Vn

[olpro]

Protecting the body panels in this current diverse vehicle mix is nearly impossible but I would hope that the 818 can at least protect the internal components like the radiator in front and the drive train stuff in the rear - even if that means extending the tube framework a little.

[kach22i]

I just want to know how Audi gets away with those big fish mouth openings first.

[PhyrraM]

From the ones I have seen, only about 30% of that huge Audi fishmouth is actually open for airflow. The bumper area is just a black plastic swath with a traditional bumper hiding behind it.

As far as the 818 goes....Reduced crashworthiness is just part of the deal with these types of cars. IMO, of course. In fact one of the reasons to go with a kit is be able to do things that OEMs no longer can. Low hoodlines, for one.

[kach22i]

From the ones I have seen, only about 30% of that huge Audi fishmouth is actually open for airflow. The bumper area is just a black plastic swath with a traditional bumper hiding behind it.
I've looked carefully at some Chrysler's before, and the 30% applies there. I'm not so sure about Audi, in either case the grille looks very sacrificial to me.

Sample-1:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16885292@N02/4121405972/

Sample-2:
http://www.carwear.com.au/~carwear/new/index.php/audi/a4-b7-2005-2007/audi-a4-b7-grilles.html

Sample-3:
http://www.tuningshop.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of__Elegance__Front_Bumper_and_Accessories.ht ml
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Sample-4:
http://www.audituningmag.com/s-line-euro-black-mesh-grille/
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The horizontal bar for the bumper is at best 30%, leaving 70% open. Again, it's not the percent of openness I'm curious about. It's the "out there and looking to take it in the chops" look which raises my eyebrow. It's just too flush to think of it as part of a true protective bumper system, at least from a cursory visual impression.

[PhyrraM]

I think that all cars have migrated to the plastic skin being sacrificialwith the real protection in the beam underneath. It just took 20 years for the traditional "bumper protrusion" to eventually dissappear. It did on sports cars first and gradually moved to sedans and others. Trucks will be next....

[shinn497]

I have to wonder. If you could somehow make the molds, would it be possible to make a carbon fibre body?

[kach22i]

I have to wonder. If you could somehow make the molds, would it be possible to make a carbon fibre body?
I think you can substitute carbon fiber cloth, Aramid, Kevlar or other cloth for fiberglass cloth/mat. The added strength of these exotics most often comes from the added stiffness of using epoxy resin over that of polyester, and also possible autoclave baking (curing).

The question is, for which part do you want added stiffness, and for which parts do you want added flexibility?

If you are just thinking these alternate cloths are lighter, they may be, but perhaps only because they require less resin. This advantage may not be so great if filling in all the cloth pores for a perfect skin finish. I'm no expert and have never done vacuum infusion myself, but have seen it done.

I'll wait for someone with personal experience to talk about the finish quality issues and cost issues.

[BipDBo]

I have to wonder. If you could somehow make the molds, would it be possible to make a carbon fibre body?

You can lay carbon in the same way that you lay fiberglass, but not all techniques are equal. The quality of the final product is greatly dependant on the quality of work going into it, whereas fiberglass is a bit more forgiving. Carbon is not significantly lighter than fiberglass, but it is stronger, so you can use less of it. One caviat is that if you are dealing with complex shapes, it's very difficult to make the weave look right. If it's painted or covered in gel coat, you don't need to worry about this. Most carbon products wouldn't be covered in gel coat because that's alot of weight. The best carbon techniques provide a consistent coating of resin on all of the carbon fibers, but leaves no voids and uses no more resin than is neccessary.

After laying out carbon, it's best to put the product in an oven for a heat cure. I don't know why this is done with carbon instead of glass, but I suspect that it is done when using carbon that is pre-impregnated with resin and delivered on a on a refrigerated truck. Pre-impregnated carbon assures that you do not have any dry fibers, but you use the absolute least amount of resin that you can get away with. This results in the strongest, lightest carbon products. Heat curing also might be used with resins that have a long cure time. Not really sure.

Does anyone know if Factory5 lays clothor matt (or a mix of the 2), or do they shoot matt from a one of theose fiberglass guns?

On another thread, I brought up backing the fiberglass skin with a thick foam core. This would increase crash protection while allowing for the use of less glass. This could be done on the front and rear bumper panels and the doors. I really should have brought it up here.

[kach22i]

On another thread, I brought up backing the fiberglass skin with a thick foam core. This would increase crash protection while allowing for the use of less glass. This could be done on the front and rear bumper panels and the doors. I really should have brought it up here.
Spray glass will be way too heavy, hand laid is the way to go but more expensive.

Your foam idea is similar to one I've hand in mind for quite a while, and I know at least one other person has spoke up. It's a good idea, so good that NASCAR has been using it for years.

http://www.stockcarscience.com/scienceTopics/scsCarSafety_IMPAXX.php
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[Grantourer]

Not sure what foam Subaru uses in the Legacy, but it definitely helps protect certain parts, not sure about adding crashworthiness or occupant protection.

There were some discussions about it in the LegacyGT forums when some tuners made their FMIC kits without being able to keep the bumper foam.

NHTSA's take on the foam:
http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/problems/studies/bumper/index.html

P.S. I enjoy this thread, it's very interesting. Makes me wish I pursued Materials Engineering.

[BipDBo]

Spray glass will be way too heavy, hand laid is the way to go but more expensive.

Your foam idea is similar to one I've hand in mind for quite a while, and I know at least one other person has spoke up. It's a good idea, so good that NASCAR has been using it for years.

http://www.stockcarscience.com/scienceTopics/scsCarSafety_IMPAXX.php
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There's some good info on this link. It looks like Dow did a lot of research to find out that the polystyrene foam used in the mass market automotive industry is also the best material for NASCAR, so they slapped the name "IMPAXX" on it. I really think that Factory 5 would do well to incorporate foam into some of their body panels and/or encapsulating some of the framing members with it.
Another observation: Foam will absorb kinetic energy and therefore provide protection whether it is outside of the car's structure like a bumper, or between the structure and the occupant. In the case of the NASCAR doors the foam is actually outside of the structure. As well as absorbing energy, the foam help to prevent objects from getting through the body to the driver. This seems counter-intuitive to me. I would think that it would be best to have foam between the structure and the occupant as well, possibly encapsulate the structure. It is noteworthy, though, that the intire cage structure is as large as possible. Notice how the tube steel that forms the doors curves outward.
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Perhaps as well as in the doors, another good location for foam would be under the dash, above and in front of the occupant's legs. Another good location for foam would be between the fire wall and the seats, especially if the seats are as I have suggested for the purpose of reduced weight, one piece molded fiberglass like the Aerial Atom:

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This discussion on foam really started on a different thread, which I copied here:

Originally Posted by Nelff in 1/4 scale model feedback:
"One of the things that I was planning on doing was fill any open area between the body shell and cockpit with expanding foam. I figure that if I get caught in a crash that the foam may help absorb some of the energy. Other than that I was hoping that it would quiet the cockpit. ..."

Originally Posted by BipDBo in 1/4 scale model feedback:
"I have had the same thought. Polystyrene (styrofoam) is used often in bumpers. It has very low density and has a high modulus of toughness, meaning that it can absorb a lot of energy before it fails. It's also very cheap. If Factory 5 manufactured certain panels of the car with polystyrene under the fiberglass skin, they could potentially use less fiberglass for the skin and use less supporting structure. This would make the car safer, but it may actually make it a little bit lighter. It could also make the body panels a more consistent shape if they use the right method. In manufacturing windsurfing boards, they first machine a foam core from a solid, extruded blank. Then they layout the skins of the top and bottom of the board in carbon fiber and fiberglass into two female molds. While the resin is still wet in the molds, they sandwich the foam core between the two molds with a vacuum. The foam core holds the carbon fiber into the right shape while it finishes curing. Without a foam core, fiberglass tend to warp slightly after it is taken form the mold because it continues to cure for a week or more. In the application of car body panels, you would not have a 3 layer sandwich, but rather just one single layer of glass sealed to the foam. The obvious disadvantage to this process is that it has more steps and would be more labor intensive and therefore more costly. This process wouldn't be used for the entire body, though just the front and rear bumper panels, and possibly the doors, since they have no windows that roll into them. Beyond my hobby of backyard windsurf board building, this is not my area of expertise, but allow me to speculate on possible modifications to make this process cheaper. The machined foam core may be replace by a molded core if they can find a way to get a consistent enough foam molding process. An alternative method would be to lay out the fiberglass panel in a female mold as they always do, and before removing the panel from the mold, inject the panel with foam. If the foam can cure faster than the glass, than the panel can be removed from the mold sooner with less worry of deformation. "

[olpro]

There is a lot of discussion here on the translation between ¼ scale and full scale. Frankly this is a problem that has occupied designers for many decades and a lot of effort has been made to deal with this ‘scale’ factor.
It is actually a part of the larger debate on design methodology - which include sketching, accurate scale LO drawings (templates, as they are called here), presentation colors and methods, model photography and presentation, etc. The overall goal is to NOT be surprised when the real product emerges onto the scene. There is a difference even between a full scale painted model and a real production vehicle. Therefore, some studios do full scale models with see-through uppers, to help bridge that gap. Fiberglass full scales prototypes almost always have see-through, if not full interiors.

The finish on a model is obviously important to bring across the feeling the real product will have. This includes the color and all details including lettering, wheels, etc.

One advantage experienced studio personnel have is that they are used to looking at both scale models and full scale clay models in progress every day. The realism of details on a ¼ scale becomes less important because one is used to looking at mockups on the full scale too. The in-progress full scale will not have a see-through upper, just like the smaller model it is based on. Its lamps and other details are probably cardboard and paper, just like the smaller model.

The clay models, whether scale or full size, are modified and then dressed up for review on an almost weekly basis. Dinoc, a plastic film, is painted and squeeged onto the surfaces to simulate a painted finish. Baby oil is sometimes wiped on the Dinoc to make it shiner and read the reflections better. Black or dark gray is used for the “glass”, chrome is done with aluminum foil and black tape is used for cut-lines. Sometimes photos of details like lamps and wheels are used if the real thing isn’t available yet. After the review, usually done outside in a road-like real world atmosphere (if you are designing toasters, you might want to review and evaluate them in a KITCHEN), the Dinoc is peeled off and the clay modelers go back to work making changes. In a week or two, the model is dressed up and taken out again. This review, revise, review process will go through many many cycles before the design is “released” to the body engineers. All this is done with relative constant input from these engineers as many of the clay changes are the result of engineering requirements.

Over the years people have tried scale backgrounds for the small models, to try to set them in a realistic environment. This is generally unnecessary, if not actually distracting. The best backgrounds are simple and non specific, avoiding scale clues of any kind.
Viewing height (and lens height for photos) is very important, again to avoid misleading and contradictory clues. This simply means matching the viewing experience of a “scale” person with the camera’s view. Longer focal length lens are generally better too. If shooting a scale model with real cars in the background, it is important to RAISE UP the scale model on a table so the scale viewing height exactly matches that of the real cars in the background. Doing this, with some attention to relative sizes, can place the scales into the scene convincingly. In fact, every studio has a set of tall display tables which will place the models at a correct viewing height – so no one has to bend down to get the right perspective.
Photoshopping the car into a photo with a real background can be done but the lighting and perspective must be well matched. This approach makes for dramatic presentations but is usually distracting and quite unnecessary for comparative evaluations.

One easy thing to do to “see” the scale model as being full size is to look at it through a camera viewfinder. This kind of creates the reality of full scale and makes it more believable. You are then dealing with monocular vision, and judging the design on the basis of a 2D image, but that is a very common mode in today’s world and most everyone is able to make the leap.

At all the major auto studios, the ability to create small scale models with amazing quality is commonplace. It is no big challenge to take photos of these models in such a way as to fool the average viewer into thinking they are of full scale autos, as long as the photography follows simple, obvious principles. Viewing scale models in real time is still a little harder to do, to make that perceptual leap to full scale. Once, as an attempt to make the viewing more real, I asked the GM Design Staff shop, which has amazing capabilities, to make me up a plexiglass prism which was designed to allow the designer to look at a ¼ scale clay as if he were ¼ size too!
If you are familiar with the glass prisms in a set of binoculars, you know how they take the light paths from the normal interocular distance (2.60”) to the wider distance between the binocular lenses - so the binoculars would not only magnify the image but would still preserve a scale 3D viewing effect. My device did just the opposite by reducing the interocular distance to ¼ of full size. It did not change the magnification. The idea was to give the viewer the impression of being a ¼ scale person - with a ¼ scale head :) looking at the model. The device kind of worked but had serious limitations with its field of view, etc.


At the limit of the art, some companies have occasionally decided that “dynamic” viewing is necessary – based on the notion that a car in MOTION in a real world situation is the best evaluation tool. Of course this has become much more doable in the digital world of CG animations, some of which are done in 3D. You just have to wear the funny glasses and sit in the right spot in the viewing room to get the best results. This really works well for interiors where one may be surprised when reaching out for the controls and finding they are not actually there. At one point in my career I was the guy sent around to evaluate some of these systems so I have experienced most of them, and that was years ago. This stuff is certainly not new and the capability of making computer animations has reached the desktop of many people, including a number of those who entered the 818 competition and supplemented their proposals with dynamic videos.

The major studios have all gone to big projection systems where the photos or CAD model looks full size. These “powerwalls” are multimillion dollar installations but get funding because they are so impressive to the big wigs invited in at presentation time. Most designers really don’t need this kind of technology to see the designs properly. Of course the Hollywood perception is that there are holographic viewing rooms where one can create the 3D image spinning nicely in the middle of the darkened room. At least that is true in the movies.

In my younger days we worked to the same kind reality by doing full scale tape drawings and airbrush renderings. With these, the designer worked directly over a detailed engineering drawing to hold the necessary layout conditions, making only some perspective corrections because we really don’t see cars as flattened out totally orthographic shapes. The resultant artwork gives a good feeling for the size of the vehicle, and whether the forms and details actually ‘work’ at that scale. Since the Powerwalls and CG technology has come in, I see more cars on the road that were apparently rushed through the full scale development stage and seem oddly out of scale or crudely detailed. There really is no substitute for a five month long development stage of a real full scale clay model, where the designers, engineers and modelers are living eight hours a day right next to the models, and working together as a multidisciplinary team.

[Vman7]

Olpro, I always love reading your long posts on the design process :), I always get an education. I am wondering if Dave Smith and FFR has or will ever use your expertise and experience in the design of their products.

[kach22i]

There really is no substitute for a five month long development stage of a real full scale clay model, where the designers, engineers and modelers are living eight hours a day right next to the models, and working together as a multidisciplinary team.

Another nice background post on the industry.

Did the auto design guys ever end up sleeping under their desks like architects? I only did that in my own office, which is why I ended up buying a couch.

[olpro]

Thanks, Vman and kach. I enjoy (and learn from) your posts by the way.
On sleeping under the desks, I haven't seen that but maybe at Ford or Chrysler.

[Colvindesign]

Great thread Kachi, I've contemplated this as well, and have thought that FFR should offer a package on each chassis for people who want to design and build their own body. Then there is of course the time and money to build your own body. Perhaps the best DIY method I've seen is to build a CAD model, slice it into layers and build a buck out of wood or foam slightly smaller and build up with clay or bondo depending on how much smaller.

In the late 40's through the 60's design houses like Pininfarina, Touring and so on used factory chassis' (which if you look at an early Ferrari Chassis is very fragile looking) which they would alter as needed by simply moving the small steel tubes to where they needed them and then building a wood buck which was used to form the aluminum skin. But looking at the FFR chassis pictures, I picture making my own body for each one of them, and I think it could perhaps launch a new era of coach built sports cars.

For example, here is a sketch I did for a Roadster chassis based sports car,
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/5613/cabriolet4.jpg

[kach22i]

If you are into automobile aerodynamics, these books scans will entertain you.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-aerohead-albums-book-illustrations.html
http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-aerohead-albums-book-illustrations-picture134-walter-korff-lockheed-ideal-low-drag-cooling-system.jpg
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[D2W]

Great post Olpro! I always find your industry insider information interesting. How many times during a five month design exercise do you second guess your design and wonder if you're making a monstrosity?

[kach22i]

I've decided to learn from the best.......................:o

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/linner-stromlinet-vogn-now-3d-model-18754-19.html
http://blog.modernmechanix.com/mags/qf/c/PopularScience/9-1946/med_auto_stylist.jpg

[olpro]

http://www.amazon.com/H-Point-Fundam.../dp/1933492376
This book directly addresses the manikin and other packaging issues so I thought I would post it here, to bring this thread up to date.

[kach22i]

That 3-book package deal looks tempting.

It's about as much as I've spent recently on gloves, thick wool socks and sock liners getting ready for winter. Gotta keep warm.

[olpro]

I now have the "H-Point" book and it is excellent. I would recommend it to anyone who is interested in vehicle design.
One shortcoming is that there isn't a manikin provided in the book so you would have to obtain one (from SAE?) or scan one from the book, separate it into parts and work with it.
The book has lots of other info on engines, tire sizes, typical seating dimensions for reference, etc.

[kach22i]

I now have the "H-Point" book and it is excellent. I would recommend it to anyone who is interested in vehicle design.
I came very close to ordering the 3-book deal, put it in my shopping cart and had my credit card out. I chickened out, will be getting a cheap Blue-Ray player instead for the same amount of money (my old DVD player is acting up).

[olpro]

I came across this German company that provides automotive type modeling clay.
http://www.kolb-technology.com/en.html

http://www.chavant.com/chavant_ob/index.shtml
The second link is a main USA supplier of clay and clay tools.

[olpro]

Here are some pix from the College for Creative Studies senior show (Detroit), with their amazing model work. These seem to be mostly from a sponsored (Lincoln) project and, although the designs are rather bizarre, the models show what their students are capable of doing.
CCS and Art Center in Pasadena, CA are the two primary schools feeding designers into the US studios. Academy of Art University in San Francisco and Cleveland Institute of Art are also important sources of talent for the industry - although talented grads can come from many other places as well.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sven_designs/sets/72157628434840395/with/6517913733/

[kach22i]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sven_designs/sets/72157628434840395/with/6517913733/
Those are Tyler's pictures. He posts on ecomodder as Sven7. A good guy with some serious talent.

[carbon fiber]

alot to this. don't be fooled. even if you have the plug cut by computer, there is tons of design, details and the molds and parts to make. i'm planning on some serious body mods in the future(not a total redesign-heavily modded) and i'll be making parts in cf from molds using vacuum infusion. lots of hours. not that it can't be done, but it's not as easy as it sounds. gotta really want it for this amount of work.

[olpro]

http://www.the-blueprints.com/
A source for vector drawings on many cars, etc. Good reference site for body design.

[olpro]

.. another shot at the fabric bodied car…
The windshield surround, which would include the upper cowl/wiper mounts, is fiberglass.
The wheel wells including the visible flanges are also fiberglass.

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[kach22i]

.. another shot at the fabric bodied car…
Looking real good.

Remind me, you went with the lower seat position, so this is only about 45" tall, right?

Are the rear wheels/tires slightly larger than the front?

[olpro]

OAH at the orange bars is 46” but a roof would have to be a little higher over the heads with this manikin position (about 9.5” heel to H-point). This is not the real low seating position.

Front tires are 225/40/18x8
Rears are 275/35/19x9.5 (I went to a 35 series on the much wider rear tires, to look right with the fronts)

[crash]

Funny this thread should come back up.

I am HIGHLY modifying an FFR GTM and recording EVERYTHING I am doing in high def video. I am basically going to document EXACTLY how to build an entire car. I have built roughly 6 cars from the ground up previously.

Here's some pics...

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[olpro]

Crash, You're in San Diego? I have got to get by to your shop some time. Your project sounds fantastic.

Here is a side view on my fabric car.

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[kach22i]

On the fabric car I like the middle roof "T" bars.

With a windshield incline like that, I would think that it would help prevent the windshield from folding inward upon roll-over.

The car floor line with the slight curve up near the rear wheel does add something to the mix. I will have to study other cars I like and see if any of them incorporate similar features.

[olpro]

Here is a pix showing how the front and rear panels swing up. The front would provide access to fuel fill and a small storage compartment, the rear to the engine and transmission. I am hoping to not need more access (from the direct rear) than that.
The other image is just for fun. That is not my donor in the background.76847685

[kach22i]

FYI: I done some work on a car design (just for fun), go to the link to view, join the forum to comment.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/2-part-aero-body-concept-20793.html#post290819

To quote myself:

The material (Monopan) will require a jig to be set up so that everything is square, but no full sized clay body required to cast a mold, and then to hand lay fiberglass or other complex composite methods using foam.

I'm pretty sure I can heat the Monopan to bend it like I did the Coroplast, but I think I can also get the Monopan glass layer unresined, curve it over a buck/form and vacuum bag it into the final form.

Like I said, I used this same thinking (Monopan) in building a hovercraft model (Coroplast - five feet long). The hovercraft would be a 50 foot long patrol hovercraft and is very stealth looking because of the faceted surfaces.

This car design is 12 inches longer in wheelbase than the FFR 818, and about 9 inches wider too. And it seats three, although the person in the back better be on the small side (2 + 1).

Photo gallery (minus and explanation):
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design%20-%20Transportation/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design%20-%20Transportation/AERO-SIDE-SKIRT-1.jpg

[olpro]

Kach, I like it!
Nonetheless I can't resist a reference to Stan Mott's famous Cyclops :)
http://sbiii.com/autopix/cyclops/cyciidwg.jpg

[kach22i]

Kach, I like it!
Nonetheless I can't resist a reference to Stan Mott's famous Cyclops :)
http://sbiii.com/autopix/cyclops/cyciidwg.jpg
That thing is "so me", you have no idea.:cool:

[Niburu]

Kach I would specifically design the rear for kids
ie; make sure car seats fit, I'm looking into retrofitting my 83 911 Targa to work with the latch system seats we have
and once they're in they'll match perfectly since they're black and tan Recaro child seats, which aren't as expesive as you would think

[Presto51]

Take a look at the Bailey Blade http://www.bxrmotors.com/index.php/page/4/?s=videos It has about seventy odd video and take you from start to finish.

Just more food for thought

Ron

[olpro]

Don't exactly know where to post this but this thread is as good as any.

http://www.thedesignacademy.com/news/
look about two thirds down the page at "staff additions"