Why no one consider 4wd 818,

[junotramm]

it does not really matter that 100ks will add up, still concept be genuine. i thinking that it would be great all purpose(drag, track, rally, street) car.
Imagine 900kg 4wd with 800hp dog gear set, it surely be in 8seconds. or at least make that version also. VOTE :cool:

[thebeerbaron]

The simple answer is that there is no way to have both a mid-engined design and AWD using the Subaru drivetrain. You'd have to take the power from the very rear of the car and turn it 180 degrees, take it around the engine, and bring it to the front. Not going to happen.

Lots of discussion on the various aspects of this issue around here, start reading! :)

[kach22i]

I'm not sure English is your first language so I'll try to be kind.

I asked early on in the contest why no AWD option, it was patiently and clearly explained to me by a person with an understanding of the drivetrain why it would be very impractical. If this is indeed the topic you are addressing I'll try to find the post in question for you.

[jimgood]

I can venture an uneducated guess...The weight distribution of the drive train in AWD configuration sucks with the entire engine in front of the front axle. An 818 kg car in that configuration could probably be made to go fast in a straight line, but it's either going to plow worse than the stock WRX or get no traction at the rear wheels during cornering. And it might even lift both rear wheels under braking.

[junotramm]

bla bla bla. )) sorry. all that came to my mind later accept for jimgood comment which is i think could be solved by an LSD ), but i couldnt delete the posting. sorry for English, it is not my native lang ). thanks and forgive me my hormones, this project really excites me.

[Doc_FFR]

bla bla bla I think you need to check yourself there mister. Everyone on the forums was nice to you even with your broken english and question that could have been answered with a forum search. You are out of line.

[jimgood]

When I had a WRX, I was constantly dreaming about using all the existing suspension and drive train and building an aerodynamic, lightweight track car. Secretly, I think this is where Jim Schenck got the idea because I swear I talked to him about it at VIR in '08.

[Flamshackle]

When I had a WRX, I was constantly dreaming about using all the existing suspension and drive train and building an aerodynamic, lightweight track car. Secretly, I think this is where Jim Schenck got the idea because I swear I talked to him about it at VIR in '08.

Na. my mate has been building one here in little ol' New Zealand over the last 2 years...

its simply a great idea and there are a bunch of people already doing it...

its been done in both 2WD...
http://www.saker.co.nz/

and 4WD
http://www.murtayasportscars.co.uk/design.html
and 4WD


My money is going to the FFR 818 however as the designs look ace :)

[Dave Smith]

Keeping things civil and professional is always a challenge when projects like this are discussed in the open. The 818 project is coming along and perhaps if I had updated the website and/or gotten the galleries up the questions would be answered faster. Last week was busy beyond words with three big events/shows. I'll see what we can bang out this week and thanks for trying to keep community foremost for all.

[Oppenheimer]

I think you need to check yourself there mister. Everyone on the forums was nice to you even with your broken english and question that could have been answered with a forum search. You are out of line.

I think he was actually trying to say 'bla bla bla' to himself, not the others that posted replies. I don't think he understands the use of that 'phrase' in english. He probably saw it used someplace, and misunderstood the context. A phrase like that is not something you can learn from a book or even a language class.

junotramm, that phrase 'bla bla bla' (or more correctly blah, blah, blah) is used in English to indicate you think the information that was provided by others is useless, or foolish, wasted words with no meaning. So you were in effect, giving an insult to the others that responded to your question. I hope that was not your intent.

[2KWIK4U]

junotramm, that phrase 'bla bla bla' (or more correctly blah, blah, blah) is used in English to indicate you think the information that was provided by others is useless, or foolish, wasted words with no meaning.

So that's why my wife says that to me all the time! :)

[Join]

I have been brainstorming a little on the topic, and got no experience on the topic.

Searching the internet led me on to that some rock-crawlers use fwd transmissions,(lost the link..), basically rotate the engine/transmission 90degrees, and use one driveshaft to the front axle, and one to the rear axle. The rock-crawlers benefit from 3:1ratio's in the axles, but in the 818 it will be super slow, with only a 3rd of the original top speed with a 3:1 ratio.

Do anyone know of companies that can deliver proper 1:1 ratio axles out there, as I was unable to find any after a long time searching.

If so, it should be "just as easy" as building it RWD, plus the added complexity of the extra axles.

I must add, the subu engine and transmission might not fit in a configuration like that, due to the long transmission. My mind was thinking on the Mitsubishi 4G63turbo,( with FWD converted AWD transmission for strenght), With the engine in front of the transmission, the majority of the weight should get closer to the centre of the car.

This is just my thinking of a AWD solution after my brainstorming..

:)

[Niburu]

There seems to be some confusion as to the configuration of the drivetrain in this car.
The engine is in the middle of the car, the transmission is behind the engine which is actually the front wheel drive portion of the donor WRX drivetrain, NOT the RWD portion.
To my understanding there is no way of flipping this around without completely reworking the entire design.

[Join]

There seems to be some confusion as to the configuration of the drivetrain in this car.
The engine is in the middle of the car, the transmission is behind the engine which is actually the front wheel drive portion of the donor WRX drivetrain, NOT the RWD portion.
To my understanding there is no way of flipping this around without completely reworking the entire design.

Hi!

No, I'm not confused as how the configuration looks.

What I'm saying, put a fwd transmission, with left side axle to the front, right side axle to the rear. Engine will be in front of the transmission, and rear axle.

Also, I mention the 4G63 mitsu engine/transmission, because it's more in a line.
Better? :)

[mattster03]

This thread needs to die.

[Niburu]

Hadn't thought of doing something like that but you would still have rework the chassis of this vehicle to accomodate driveshafts running the way you describe.
Also I don't if the Subaru transaxle would hold up to that.

[Niburu]

This thread needs to die.
silence you rotary blasphemer

[mattster03]

silence you rotary blasphemer

I will take that as a compliment :D

[Join]

Hadn't thought of doing something like that but you would still have rework the chassis of this vehicle to accomodate driveshafts running the way you describe.
Also I don't if the Subaru transaxle would hold up to that.
Yes, there will be challenge, but it would not look hacked if done right..

The being a mitsu head, I was considering a FWD converted built AWD transmission.. Good for alot of punch!

[Someday I Suppose]

I dont see what the big deal is, just run the front drive shaft straight through the oil pan... :cool:

[Niburu]

I dont see what the big deal is, just run the front drive shaft straight through the oil pan... :cool:
that sounds like something Audi would do

[BrandonDrums]

that sounds like something Audi would do

Sounds like something I want Subaru to do if the next gen WRX goes the way I want.

**thread highjack warning**

http://www.motortrend.com/future/future_vehicles/1107_subaru_wrx_to_go_its_own_way/

[bromikl]

The article makes no mention of the new WRX being a mid-engine car. I've heard that rumor in another thread. If Subaru ever builds an AWD mid-engine 270 Hp monster, it would be one kick-a$$ ride.

[BrandonDrums]

The article makes no mention of the new WRX being a mid-engine car. I've heard that rumor in another thread. If Subaru ever builds an AWD mid-engine 270 Hp monster, it would be one kick-a$$ ride.

Right, I was just saying it would be cool if Subaru mounted the engine behind the front wheels. In order to do so, they'd have to put a driveshaft through the oil pan the way things are configured. I actually started a new thread about how that could happen, it actually wouldn't be that far fetched not changing anything except removing the front diff and placing a driveshaft in it's place that shoots out the front, under the engine and to a separate differential not unlike what is already in the rear of the car for the front wheels too.

That would drastically improve the handling characteristics of the car as it would still be a front engine car but the center of mass would be behind the wheels rather than way out in front as they are on all subaru's currently.

That's the whole point of the FT86, the engine is mounted way back giving the car a low and short center of mass.

[Join]

Here is a picture of my built FWD transmission for my Eclipse Gs-t: http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/Join81/04082009482.jpg

And here is the FWD converted AWD transmission that replaced the FWD tranny after it broke 3 gears inside.. It got a Quaife ATB diff inside, I guess it will work for front/rear lock in this setup, and should be a nice feat. http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/Join81/P1010070-1.jpg

The engine/transmission will get in-line with the car, with the engine very close to the firewall.

It all depends on availability of 1:1 axles for front and rear.

[kitcarj]

You could make it a parallel hybrid with an electric motor up front. It would probably work best for acceleration only unless you wanted a large battery pack and the weight that goes with it.

[Ks2]

you could always rotate the engine and transmission around and have 1 forward gear and 5 reverse gears...

[bromikl]

Thing about running an electric motor: they're heavy. And if you want to use electricity to move power from one place to another, you need two of them - one running as a generator, and the other as a motor. For short distances (i.e. inside a car) mechanical connections will weigh less, with less power lost.

B-Drums, are you talking about turning the motor and the front trans 180, and having the flywheel AND rear drive shaft behind the front axle? Wouldn't the engine then move into the front seat? Now your belts, alternator, etc are under the dash board. For a two-seater with a long hood that would work, but I'd hate to have to work on it.

What about an offset drive shaft for the rear? Then the engine can be way down low. I know Subaru makes a big deal about their symmetrical drive train, but does it make a better car?

Or a drive shaft that goes straight through the engine. (O.K, oil pan. Never mind.) Yep I got nothin.

[Silvertop]

I think I'm getting a headache.

[Niburu]

I think I'm getting a headache.
you should try reading hondatech forums, it'll make your brain explode and fear for the future of all mankind

[Join]

I think I'm getting a headache.

For me this is pure research. Consider pro's and con's, extra labour and work. Designs.

Is it doable in a reasonable way? That's my hole intention at this point.

[thebeerbaron]

Consider pro's and con's...

I have yet to hear an argument for why AWD would be desirable.

[kach22i]

I have yet to hear an argument for why AWD would be desirable.
An electric motor hooked up to the front wheels could provide a lot of launch power off the line. Getting the mass up to speed with the instant torque of an electric motor is what Honda/Acura considered on the NSX a few years ago before shelving the project. Porsche 918 anyone?


Thing about running an electric motor: they're heavy. And if you want to use electricity to move power from one place to another, you need two of them - one running as a generator, and the other as a motor. For short distances (i.e. inside a car) mechanical connections will weigh less, with less power lost.
I think if the electric power was used only for a short term burst at launch, some attractive solution could be reached. Call me a dreamer.

[StatGSR]

For me this is pure research. Consider pro's and con's, extra labour and work. Designs.

Is it doable in a reasonable way? That's my hole intention at this point.

not really reasonable at all... you would be better off re bodying a AWD car....

have you thought about how hard the shift linkage would be to configure with the trans in the wrong orientation?

[jimgood]

I once saw a pic of the bare drive train from an AWD lambo. One could save oneself a lot of headaches and just obtain one of those and be done with it. Mid-engine, AWD, done.

[Niburu]

I once saw a pic of the bare drive train from an AWD lambo. One could save oneself a lot of headaches and just obtain one of those and be done with it. Mid-engine, AWD, done.
if it's one of the new Lambos those drivetrain are manufactured by VW/Audi

[BipDBo]

Thing about running an electric motor: they're heavy. And if you want to use electricity to move power from one place to another, you need two of them - one running as a generator, and the other as a motor.

Not true. If you had the boxer driving the rear wheels, with an electric motor driving the front, you would have a through the road hybrid. The batteries could be recharged while moving at constant speed, but pimarily with regenerative braking. The porsche gt3 hybrid uses this, except it uses a flywheel instead of a battery. A KERS system would also be possible for the fornt wheels.

As for weight, the Swiggs electric motorcycle features a rather large, 11.5 kw*hr battery, a 194 hp motor, 2 wheel regenerative braking and total weight of 585#. Based on that, I would guestimate that would could add similar electric power and a plug for charging off of the grid to an 818 for less than 500#. This is assuming that you could find room for the batteries, motor, controller and front drive axles. Who needs a passenger seat anyway?

With 300hp on the rear wheels, 200hp on the front wheels, you have a 500hp hybrid that weighs 2300#. You could get the same power to weight ratio with much less money if you just built a GTM kit, but it would be RWD only and much less efficient.

[jimgood]

if it's one of the new Lambos those drivetrain are manufactured by VW/Audi
It was a couple of years ago. IIR, the transmission was a transaxle behind the engine, then continued under the engine, mated to it like an integrated oil pan, then had an output shaft in front of the engine going to the front axle.

[junotramm]

I think he was actually trying to say 'bla bla bla' to himself, not the others that posted replies. I don't think he understands the use of that 'phrase' in english. He probably saw it used someplace, and misunderstood the context. A phrase like that is not something you can learn from a book or even a language class.

junotramm, that phrase 'bla bla bla' (or more correctly blah, blah, blah) is used in English to indicate you think the information that was provided by others is useless, or foolish, wasted words with no meaning. So you were in effect, giving an insult to the others that responded to your question. I hope that was not your intent.

exactly, respect to you. when a chinese speak russian it sound rude, same thing i notice for russian who speak english. if i harmed then i am sorry. and i really glad to see people who can think and judge with compassion. thank you. there is not many of us.

[kitcarj]

The porsche gt3 hybrid uses this, except it uses a flywheel instead of a battery. A KERS system would also be possible for the fornt wheels.

I am guessing KERS is Kinetic energy recovery system?? That is what a flywheel does. That would be great but requires more precision then is practically available. It would also be like adding a third drive system and a lot of weight to the car. The Patriot used something like that with a gas only race car but it improved the acceleration out of corners and fuel economy.

[Join]

I have yet to hear an argument for why AWD would be desirable.

I want to try to join the Extreme timeattack series here, that run 4-5 races a year. There are currently some cars with approx. 1hp pr. kg, and AWD.

To be able to keep up, I was thinking that the 818 will need around 600WHP to be able to keep up? Thats why I was thinking AWD at all. Possible traction issues.
Is it enough to fit wider tires to fit the powerlevel instead?
I have no experience with this type of car, so please let me know how you drive one, and why, how will AWD be worse.(Exept added weight..)


not really reasonable at all... you would be better off re bodying a AWD car....

have you thought about how hard the shift linkage would be to configure with the trans in the wrong orientation?

I have not seen the go-cart for the 818, so it's only guessing how the setup will have to look at this point. Do there exist a gocarted chassis?
No, have not gotten to think about shift linkage until now.


I once saw a pic of the bare drive train from an AWD lambo. One could save oneself a lot of headaches and just obtain one of those and be done with it. Mid-engine, AWD, done.
Buying that drivetrain is not a option for me, that would atleast add a couple of $$$$$ extra..


Going electric is nothing I believe in, for my skills, money and goals. There got to be so many possible issues with a setup like that!

[Silvertop]

Join -- Your real problem is that FFR's design goals for the 818 are pretty much set. Those were (IMHO) to create a mid-rear engined sports car in the spirit of (for example) the Porsche 550 Spyder/Boxster/Cayman, the Ferrari Dino, select Lotus models, and a few exotics. And do it in a way that is AFFORDABLE for the average guy -- something the expensive cars I named can't do. That pretty much precludes designing in an new AWD system that they probably don't think would bring much added value.

The bare chassis "go-kart" DOES exist, and its engineering is pretty much complete, except probably for such modifications as might be necessary to fit the various yet-to-be finalized bodies to it. You can find pictures of it elsewhere on this forum. AWD just isn't likely to be on FFR's radar for this car, at least not any time soon. If they had AWD in mind, they probably would have left the engine in front, or put it all the way at the rear with transmission facing forward.

You can try to engineer it yourself -- if you have the time, money and the skills. But keep in mind that prototype designs tend to be more fragile, particularly in a racing situations, which is apparently your goal. And more moving parts means more things to break. If you want to go racing in AWD, you would be better off starting from a different platform.

[jimgood]

I want to try to join the Extreme timeattack series here, that run 4-5 races a year. There are currently some cars with approx. 1hp pr. kg, and AWD.

To be able to keep up, I was thinking that the 818 will need around 600WHP to be able to keep up? Thats why I was thinking AWD at all. Possible traction issues.
Is it enough to fit wider tires to fit the powerlevel instead?
I have no experience with this type of car, so please let me know how you drive one, and why, how will AWD be worse.(Exept added weight..)

Join, if you wanted the 818 to be the AWD car of your dreams, that discussion has pretty much reached a dead end.

If you really want your AWD time attack racer, get an AWD drivetrain and build a chassis around it. You seem to know a lot about suspension setup. It should be no problem for someone with your knowledge to get a front engine, AWD car to handle well. It would be really cool if you start a build thread we can all follow.

[Inthenameofweez]

This thread needs to die or be deleted.

[Join]

Join -- Your real problem is that FFR's design goals for the 818 are pretty much set. Those were (IMHO) to create a mid-rear engined sports car in the spirit of (for example) the Porsche 550 Spyder/Boxster/Cayman, the Ferrari Dino, select Lotus models, and a few exotics. And do it in a way that is AFFORDABLE for the average guy -- something the expensive cars I named can't do. That pretty much precludes designing in an new AWD system that they probably don't think would bring much added value.

The bare chassis "go-kart" DOES exist, and its engineering is pretty much complete, except probably for such modifications as might be necessary to fit the various yet-to-be finalized bodies to it. You can find pictures of it elsewhere on this forum. AWD just isn't likely to be on FFR's radar for this car, at least not any time soon. If they had AWD in mind, they probably would have left the engine in front, or put it all the way at the rear with transmission facing forward.

You can try to engineer it yourself -- if you have the time, money and the skills. But keep in mind that prototype designs tend to be more fragile, particularly in a racing situations, which is apparently your goal. And more moving parts means more things to break. If you want to go racing in AWD, you would be better off starting from a different platform.

Thanks for your input. You are probably right that there will be more things to break.


Join, if you wanted the 818 to be the AWD car of your dreams, that discussion has pretty much reached a dead end.

If you really want your AWD time attack racer, get an AWD drivetrain and build a chassis around it. You seem to know a lot about suspension setup. It should be no problem for someone with your knowledge to get a front engine, AWD car to handle well. It would be really cool if you start a build thread we can all follow.

I cannot claim any knowledge about suspension setups or racing experience. Project 818 looks like something I might afford building, and race. What one can do with skills, have no value if they are used wrong.
Like mentioned earlier, it's a part of brainstorming, and elimination.

The better result will probably be RWD and some sort of traction-control, like the Race Logic box, and play with different tire-sizes after the car is up-and-running.


This thread needs to die or be deleted.
I think this thread got value. Because of this thread I am now certain that the 818 will be better off with RWD, without what-if's and doubt.
Now someone with similar questions will be able to read a little on the topic later on. :)

[kach22i]

I think this thread got value. Because of this thread I am now certain that the 818 will be better off with RWD, without what-if's and doubt.
Now someone with similar questions will be able to read a little on the topic later on. :)
I agree, part of the design process includes chasing a few dead ends so that you know you are on the correct path.

[junotramm]

then i just wait for the next 4wd FF. however on this stage of development, is reasonable to ask for the frame mod to do 4wd version in future who want it. I mean that option would satisfy all. why leave market space?

[Silvertop]

I agree, part of the design process includes chasing a few dead ends so that you know you are on the correct path.

Exactly right!

[Niburu]

then i just wait for the next 4wd FF. however on this stage of development, is reasonable to ask for the frame mod to do 4wd version in future who want it.

Actually it's a little late for that as the chassis design is set and would have to totally reworked to accomodate 4wd.
The frame chassis has been engineered for mid engine RWD, it's not just a matter of moving metal tubing around.
There is big difference between design and engineering.


I mean that option would satisfy all. why leave market space?

It's just not feasible, especially since the actual running gear you'd need for this drivetrain in it's current configuration does not exist.
If you want an awd racecar just stick with the donor WRX.

[thebeerbaron]

If you want an awd racecar just stick with the donor WRX.

Or check out Palatov Motorsports (http://dpcars.net/). AWD track monsters.

[StatGSR]

then i just wait for the next 4wd FF. however on this stage of development, is reasonable to ask for the frame mod to do 4wd version in future who want it. I mean that option would satisfy all. why leave market space?

At this stage? where have you been, the chassis has been more or less completed for months now.... the engine is in the back what donor are you going to use to make it AWD?

BTW 4WD handles like poo, you want AWD, that center diff thing really helps....

you cannot design a single chassis to except a large magnitude of drivetrains with out increasing the cost for everybody no matter what configuration they wanted. In reality its just bad engineering and bad economics...

Die thread die!!!!!!

[junotramm]

Not for everybody, and donors are there waiting. I am thinking cosworth v6 with 6speed sequential like in BAC MONO.
At this stage? where have you been, the chassis has been more or less completed for months now.... the engine is in the back what donor are you going to use to make it AWD?

BTW 4WD handles like poo, you want AWD, that center diff thing really helps....

you cannot design a single chassis to except a large magnitude of drivetrains with out increasing the cost for everybody no matter what configuration they wanted. In reality its just bad engineering and bad economics...

Die thread die!!!!!!

[junotramm]

the post is not meaningless. people from FF might consider this demand in future products. i definitely satisfied with FF macro concept, and would like to buy 4wd mid engine supercar 818 even for 30g. both ways i will buy 818 cause both concepts are great.
but from were i come from, tracks are field with sand, i am not telling about drag tracks(there are plenty vids how vettes spinning around crashing on the side in third gear. so i just take my chances showing my demand.

[bromikl]

If those Palitov D4 specs are accurate, that car has a P/W of .25 !

The 818 w/ 300 Hp is a (mere :D) .167.

But at a build price of $45,000 to $63,000 - and no street driving, they can have it! :P

[Ks2]

[/sarcasm] Thats easy!!!! instead of a driveshaft to the front tires you just attach a pully!!! so simple [/end sarcasm]