Dave, just hear me out...

[Rockraven]

I've followed your company since the late 90's, ordered your info pack/dvd, dreamed and planned for "some day". Your company represents everything that we all aspire to: passion, great people, belief in your product, and having fun while delivering the best replica cars in the world. Upon retiring from the military next year, I will finally be able to order a kit from you. You can hold me to it. It will be a MkIV. Unless...

My favorite car in the world, since I was a kid in the 70's, is the Lancia Stratos. You are so close to creating the foundation of a fantastic Stratos kit. I don't want a 3rd-rate overpriced Hawk kit. I want a Factory Five Stratos.

You've been holding your cards pretty tight to your chest on this matter, and that's okay... I understand. I'll patiently wait and see what you guys do. No matter what, I will be a customer of yours soon. I just wanted you to realise the passion, and the market, out there for a version of the 818 based on the Stratos.

Thank-you, and keep up the awesome work!

[GUNS]

I have an idea, how about everyone make a thread to Dave with your specific requests and inputs on the 818.

[Rockraven]

Why not? Input from their customer base is valuable stuff. Thanks for the snide response tho...

[GUNS]

I gave a snide response because this has already been covered and FFR is in the process of making scale models of their designs that they will be using. Why would they stop everything just because you want them to make the car that you want? Also, what if everyone started their own thread for every thing that they specifically wanted. This forum would get pretty cluttered don't you think? I wouldn't mind as much if you placed your inputs in a thread that already covers this.

[PaulW]

.....and here I thought this forum was a place for free and open discussion. The gentleman merely expressed his opinion on something he would like to see from FFR. There are a significant number of threads with suggestions for changes to product and new ideas. He already stated that he was going to get a Mark IV unless there was something that attracted him more and then he explained what it was. At the same time he paid FFR a great compliment in that he would want the car of his dreams to be an FFR model and not some other less well manufactured one. So in my opinion he deserves respect for taking the time and thought to express something that was/is important to him. Everything that FFR builds is about dreams. I know they are helping me realize mine.

[Rockraven]

Fair enough, I get your point. However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making a strong point, and starting a new thread makes a strong point. I see amazing potential in the 818, and I think FFR should do a Stratos version. Because there are many Stratos fans that would love to own one, especially based on a WRX/STi. I'm not sure if they indeed plan to offer one... everything points to 3 original designs, which, in my opinion, would be a missed opportunity to capitalize on this fanbase. I could be totally wrong here... FFR are the experts. But I do not see anything wrong with letting Dave and Co know what I would love to see them do. No critisism intended. If I don't like the 818 cars, I will order a MkIV.

[Rockraven]

Let's turn this thread into everyone "Dave, just hear me out". Let the FFR guys know your honest opinions and desires. If you're not worried about disagreeing with Dave and his team, this is the opportunity to provide them with valuable and honest opinion.

[mofpa01]

A Stratos body would be interesting, but that doesn't look like that's the direction Factory Five is going in. But who know what the futue may bring. I've been reading threads on the other forum, of some of some of the 65 Roadster builders are using a 289 body from a 3rd party. If I remember correctly, that person building the 289 bodies also had molds for other cars (such as the Cheetah). Since Factory Five is doing a 2 stage kit for the Hot Rod, maybe one day they'll do the same thing with the 818, where you a frame package from them, and if then is enough interst maybe a 3rd party could make a Stratos body that fits the frame.

Just throwing ideas out there...

[thebeerbaron]

Just glanced at the Stratos specs. At 85", the Stratos wheelbase is significantly shorter than the 818. At 56/57", the Stratos wheelbase is 2" narrower in front and 1" narrower in the rear.

Adding 10" of wheelbase without adding much, if any width is going to be aesthetically difficult.

I agree that the Stratos is a great design and I did the above math wondering if the Hawk kits could be dropped onto the 818 frame. Personally, knock-off kits that try to squeeze one car body onto a differently-sized frame are always glaring failures to my eyes. As much as I'd like to see a Stratos 818, I think that a new body design would be better looking, not to mention avoiding the likely intellectual property issues (I don't know if Hawk is licensed to make their reproductions, or what).

Just to hammer my point home, gaze upon this (http://cgi.ebay.ca/Replica-Kit-Makes-/290585353641?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item43a83c9da9) "Looks like the real thing!" car.

[Rockraven]

Despite the fact it's an '02 Cougar, it looks pretty convincing at 20 feet. The Pinninfarina Stratos concept has a wheelbase of 95", and looks fantastic. Same with the Ford GT, which was substantially larger than the GT40.

$89,000???? The guy is on crack.

[Flamshackle]

While I like the stratos I dont believe it will sell as well as a "world" car design. I could be wrong but thats my take on it.

Another thing is if they get one hot looking custom design going on thats unique to FFR (just like the GTM) then a replica would not be the way to go compared to the success of the GTM right?

[bromikl]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Dave has already said he is a big fan of the Stratos. If there is any way it can be done legally, I think it would be one of the possibilities.

[kach22i]

Here is an idea; buy the welded steel tube frame, wiring harness and other essentials from FFR and put your own body on it.

You can do the body yourself with lots of foam, clay and fiberglass like artists and custom creators of the 1960's and 1970's did. Or you can farm it all out 3D computer wise if you have the checkbook for it.

If you can draw it all up in under 30 days, a trial copy of Solidworks may suit you. Take that file to a boat shop with a CNC milling machine and get a full-sized foam plug for your mold base made.

You can also try Autocad's 123-D in Beta form for free, and work with selected prototypers (in the near future?).

http://www.123dapp.com/

Inspiring ideas and partner services for
going from digital to physical, with more coming soon


Autodesk 123D is free 3D modeling software
integrated with content and
fabrication services.

As I understand it, Google's Sketch-Up PRO can be converted to Autocad, which I think can be converted to CNC files of some sort.

I have not done any of this myself, but have been casually researching it for a while now. Please let me know other alternatives.

If you want something bad enough, just do it.

Here is a link to a forum where guys are doing some serious rebuilding of cars for aerodynamic reasons, should be at least inspirational.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/

NOTE: You should be looking at the current Lancia Stratos design in my opinion, not the tiny original or Hawk. See my sketches and thoughts here:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2398-Let-s-see-your-interior-design/page2

[olpro]

If someone wants to get a cad package and learn it to do a car body, they would be way ahead with Rhino or something like that. Solidworks is not the right software for auto surfaces at all (although it is terrific for mechanical parts and engineering functions). Personally I have Alias, upon which Rhino is based. One problem is that it will take a couple of years to get proficient with any good surfacing software. Finding someone to mill out a plug isn't easy because of the size of the part - and it will likely cost 20 to 60K.
Doing it the traditional way with Chavant clay over a wood/foam buck requires a lot of skill and a temp controlled space to keep the clay from cracking. The clay isn't cheap either. Still, that might be okay if you have the space and plenty of time. First you have to measure and digitize the frame and mechanical parts with either technique, a rather time consuming project in itself.
2899

[xabier]

I know it is not very related with the conversation here, but now that olpro has mentioned some softwares I wanted to asko you something, for car designing what software would you choose?, I think Alias could be the best but also the most difficult to get, I am able to get Rhino from my university, also Solidworks (Although I know this one is not very useful for car surfaces...) And then is 3D Studio, which I have tried and I found it quite easy... so which one would you recommend me? I think the ones I have easier to get are Rhino and 3D Studio, but I could also try to get Alias...
Thanks!

[kach22i]

they would be way ahead with Rhino
A lot of the boat guys at boatdesign.net use Rhino, but for presentation/design development, not fabrication as I understand it.

Have you seen the spray foam method some homebuilt aircraft and crazy custom Russian car builders have used?
http://englishrussia.com/2008/05/29/lithuanians-and-pu-foam/
2900
2901

I'm not suggesting anyone try this. Just posting it for conversation purposes.

EDIT: Someone can start a drawing software and fabrication methods thread if they want.

[olpro]

kach, Rhino is perfectly good for modeling and creating files for milling. It is commonly used for this.

Xabier, You might be able to get a student version of Autodesk Alias 2012 for less than $200 (try Journeyed.com maybe or check through your school). I don't know what a regular copy goes for these days (was about 30K a few years ago for Alias Autostudio).
Rhino, the last time I checked, was about $800 but a permanent license and good investment for any product designer.

[Dave Smith]

I can address this respectfully and honestly. The truth is we all have these cars in our memories and in our dreams and as a kid, even today, the Lacia has had a special place. I saw a replica at Carlisle about 5 years ago and I swear even tho it was crazy money, and even though it looked like it would need a TON of work from chassis on up, that shape, that stance, I almost bought the thing... so I guess you know I LOVE the design and I do really love the new Lancia that a guy put on a Ferrari chassis (although why is a good question at the dollars discussed).

I respectfully appreciate your passion for the car and a legal replica could be done without too many problems. Still, the 818 project requires alot of variables be considered and it is going down a collaborative path that will set forth some scale models in front of you guys shortly. I love the fact that you guys are policing yourselves with respect to honest and still positive feedback. The life of this forum depends on candor AND respect. Anyone who has visited our shop will attest that we are a community and we value every imput. When it comes to the Lancia, it might be me and you and a handful of guys drinking beers and wishing the project had gone that way. OR it could be a reality or at least a version of reality since we are at the fun stage of picking direction on the body/(s). Thanks.

[Oppenheimer]

So how about after FFR really gets the 818 going, they are selling kits, the 3 original bodies have all been done, they can come back to the community and look at doing a replica body for the 818. Stratos? Dino?

We could all weigh in, they could get a feel for how many they could sell, etc.

That may not be in the original posters timeframe, but then he could always sell his MkIV and build a Stratos 818.

[thebeerbaron]

Wait, why would I want a car that looks like a barking purple dinosaur?

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/6300000/The-Flintstones-Dino-the-flintstones-6386240-500-582.jpg

[Oppenheimer]

Good point, everyone knows Astro is way cooler. Rut-ro

[D2W]

I think Scooby is the logical way to go:)

[Rockraven]

Thanks for the input, Dave! Like I said, my intent was merely to voice another opinion on what I think would be a great direction to take the 818. Whatever you do I'm sure it'll be a great car to build, and I'm looking forward to seeing the end product.

[Rockraven]

So how about after FFR really gets the 818 going, they are selling kits, the 3 original bodies have all been done, they can come back to the community and look at doing a replica body for the 818. Stratos? Dino?

We could all weigh in, they could get a feel for how many they could sell, etc.

That may not be in the original posters timeframe, but then he could always sell his MkIV and build a Stratos 818.

*gasp* Sell the MkIV? It would just mean the wife's car sits outside the double garage. :0)

[flyboy2160]

I already posted elsewhere about tweaking the "new" Stratos design for the 818, but I like that design so much I'm repeating myself here and seconding a Stratos-like body style! :p Alas, I don't expect you guys will do one, so I'll just do a body myself - removing the double hoop on the roof and the creased hood and cleaning up the back end.

[Steve91T]

Am I the only one who thinks the Stratos is a dated design? And one that doesn't even look that good! To me, it just screams 70's and 80's.

To me, there are a lot of cars out there that are timeless. The Porsche 550, the 911, and Cobra's to name a few....The Stratos? I know everyone on here has their opinion, but I really thought that that most people were really excited to hear that the 818 was going to be an original design. There are a lot of replicas out there, and I don't think they gain the respect as something original.

I get a little frustrated with threads like these. Why would someone come to this forum and say, "if it doesn't look like this, then I'm not building it". Well fine, go build your roadster then. I don't think it's very respectful to FFR to be honest. They are working their butts off to make this an amazing car.

[Flamshackle]

Am I the only one who thinks the Stratos is a dated design? And one that doesn't even look that good! To me, it just screams 70's and 80's.

....The Stratos? I know everyone on here has their opinion, but I really thought that that most people were really excited to hear that the 818 was going to be an original design. There are a lot of replicas out there, and I don't think they gain the respect as something original.

I get a little frustrated with threads like these. Why would someone come to this forum and say, "if it doesn't look like this, then I'm not building it". Well fine, go build your roadster then. I don't think it's very respectful to FFR to be honest. They are working their butts off to make this an amazing car.

I 100% agree re the dated look of this classic. I to like the stratos and the history but again 100% agree that whats driving the excitement for the 818 for many is another sensational and original design from FFR. I LOVE the GTM but alas dont see it as an affordable option to build as I live in NZ and the design brief of the 818 presents as a true "World Car" in my neck of the woods. :D

I can however appreciate other opinions about the look they want if they are to buy the car. I am mad about the top 2 and 3 designs but will not build an 818 that resembles the winning design (IMHO it is an awkward look)
This is important to get the info on the forums so the FFR guys can gauge the "feel" out there for the market in addition to the other market measurements they will looking to.

[Rockraven]

Reread my posts, Steve. I merely offered an opinion on a possible direction to consider for the 818 project. If I were in charge of FFR, I would find these threads much more useful and constructive than merely agreeing for the sake of not wanting to offend anyone's feelings. I have a lot of respect for Factory Five, and the guys that built it into the best company of its type in the world, so please don't put words in my mouth and then try to claim the high road.

[flyboy2160]

I'm talking about the "new" German Stratos that fits on a Ferrari 360/430 chasis, not the tiny old one...

[Fast818]

Please read newspaper about German Stratos. Ferrari say NO...!!

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-news/ferrari-blocks-iconic-sports-car-20110714-1hes7.html

[Flamshackle]

I'm talking about the "new" German Stratos that fits on a Ferrari 360/430 chasis, not the tiny old one...

Still dated design, it wouldn't fit the world car look or be the fresh new design that was the whole point of the 818. I do think replica cars are great but that wasn't the design brief for the 818.

[Dave Smith]

Design is a very personal and emotional thing based on opinion and the things that make a car "look" right to some arent universal... There are those cars though that seem to last the test of time and some shapes that seem to grow on you the more you stare at it. I am very excited to show you guys the 3-d 1/4 scale models we are working on (when they are done) because I think that drawings look different in 3-d reality and as ALL of you know, the looks of the 818 in this first model (and the other subsequent versions) will determine its real success. When I walk in every moring I say, "good morning ladies" to the most beautiful shapes, The Mk4, The Coupe (my favorite), the stunning and evil GTM and the classic 33... I cannot and will not entertain any car joining that line-up that isnt an equal or better in the 'looks' department. Don't worry, the car will be stunning and it will be that way because of the skill of our guys, the talents of the community whose efforts are directing the design, and also due to this type of candid but respectful feedback.

[Steve91T]

Reread my posts, Steve. I merely offered an opinion on a possible direction to consider for the 818 project. If I were in charge of FFR, I would find these threads much more useful and constructive than merely agreeing for the sake of not wanting to offend anyone's feelings. I have a lot of respect for Factory Five, and the guys that built it into the best company of its type in the world, so please don't put words in my mouth and then try to claim the high road.



"Upon retiring from the military next year, I will finally be able to order a kit from you. You can hold me to it. It will be a MkIV. Unless...

My favorite car in the world, since I was a kid in the 70's, is the Lancia Stratos. You are so close to creating the foundation of a fantastic Stratos kit. I don't want a 3rd-rate overpriced Hawk kit. I want a Factory Five Stratos."


These are your words and what I was commenting on. Of course you can voice your opinion, but look at what Dave has been saying ever since the design contest has been over, it will be an amazing car. They are already in the process of doing the models. Once they come out, we can give our opinions on what we think.

I agree, I'm not a fan of the winner, but they have said that they are not going to make it a 100% copy. FFR hasn't made an ugly car yet, and I'm sure they aren't going to start now. Obviously, look at what Dave posted early this morning. Here's what I think is going to happen, by the time this car is finished and they are starting to roll kits out the door. The majority of the people who originally said they wouldn't build the 818 based on looks will change their minds and say, "whoa, that thing looks bad ***!"

I guess I didn't get why you said you wanted to Stratos. What's the point? You know they aren't going to build one, at least not right now.

[GUNS]

Reread my posts, Steve. I merely offered an opinion on a possible direction to consider for the 818 project. If I were in charge of FFR, I would find these threads much more useful and constructive than merely agreeing for the sake of not wanting to offend anyone's feelings. I have a lot of respect for Factory Five, and the guys that built it into the best company of its type in the world, so please don't put words in my mouth and then try to claim the high road.

The topic of the 818 being a Stratos has been beaten to death ever since this project was announced. My point is that we don't need everyone making a new thread with their own personal agenda. If you want to voice your opinion, make a post in a thread that covers this.

[kach22i]

Please read newspaper about German Stratos. Ferrari say NO...!!

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-news/ferrari-blocks-iconic-sports-car-20110714-1hes7.html

Nice find, and disappointing at the same time.

Here is an idea along the whole lemons and making lemon-aid motto; FFR partners with Pininfarina and Michael Stoschek to produce 100 turn-key (or near turn-key) look-a-likes, with an open targa top option similar to my pink sketch.

And about the Hawk, I've never read anything bad about them. The only weak point is that they are faithful and true replicas of the original Stratos (engine and all) right down to tricky handling at the limits. There are several Hawk competitors also of reputable quality which have made suspension redesigns and improvements to modernize the car. The original was designed to be driven near sideways on a dirt road at full tilt. It really does not make a good track or street car without major suspension tweaking.


I don't want a 3rd-rate overpriced Hawk kit.!

No need to bash what you do not understand. Hawk body parts can be used to repair an original, they use the original body molds as I understand it.

[Rockraven]

I admit it was an offhanded remark on the Hawk kit, which definitely is a pretty faithful kit. My point is that nobody does value and simplicity like Factory Five, and the thought of a $15k single donor Stratos kit, to me, would be too exciting not to speak up in favor for. Like the rest of you, I can't wait to see the finished designs, and the intent was never to criticise or complain. I'll be quiet on the subject for now and see how the 818 plays out.

[Cooluser23]

I'd really like the new '11 Stratos, and I think it would sell well. On the other hand, original designs such as the K1 Attack can be beautiful as well. I'm really hoping the 818 will be futuristic, and modern rather than Retro.

I feel like the younger generations should get their fair chance at new designs as well. Otherwise we're essentially saying, "all great cars have been designed between 20 and 60 years ago." Be inspired by the past, but look towards the future.

[Dave Smith]

Still running behind. Re: the retro vs. modern aspect. The truth is that there are so many bases I want to cover with this flexible "world-platform" chassis and running gear (subie for all bits and one model with tdi eng/trans). Hard-top, roadster, targa, vintage, modern, mpg-buster, hyper pocket-rocket trrack car, affordable "build-it-yourself" sportscar... you can see the need for a swatch-watch car with multiple applications and budgets. A very complex process and a capable team working on em. Body deisngs in real world 3-d 1/4 scale is next milestone with web updates and gallery of submissions. sorry to be going so slow but we are actually making progress.

[ehansen007]

I have to agree with many on this topic of the winner. It seems like the response has been overwhelmingly negative towards this car. While it's not a bad looking design by any means, I believe it is very safe and fails to provoke any good emotion towards it. Is it safe because it would be easier to build? Were there frame proportions a huge factor? 2nd and 3rd place seemed to have capture the imagination of the majority so it begs the question of what motivated the judges to pick something that is so far off of what the public wanted. Are the judges kit car builders? Do they have any FFR cars? Seems like your customers like cars with curves and sexy fun shapes (with the exception of the hot rod). From what it looks like you may want to incorporate a bit more shapeliness into your design to keep your fan base interested. Just some feedback.

[Niburu]

Is it safe because it would be easier to build? Were there frame proportions a huge factor? 2nd and 3rd place seemed to have capture the imagination of the majority so it begs the question of what motivated the judges to pick something that is so far off of what the public wanted. Are the judges kit car builders? Do they have any FFR cars?
all these questions have been answered numerous time in many different threads
read some of the threads and use the the search feature