Boy I just love love love this manual.

[TDSapp]

Why is it that I follow the manual on installing the grill and cooling components and I start at the beginning (page 230) and follow the directions all the way through mounting the grill assembly on the car. It's now on the car and then I come to the part for mounting the over flow canister on page 255.


What I find is the directions that say...

"The overflow tank can either get mounted to the radiator as shown in the diagram BEFORE THE RADIATOR INSTALLATION or directly to the firewall."

(Emphasis is mine)


I mean really... They could not find somewhere in those 25 pages to tell you that you might want to install the overflow at this point? Or how about some photos showing where it actually gets mounted... The diagram is almost worthless when you are looking at the bookit does not really show where it is connected.




The fan also had me wondering... On the page about installing the fan on the radiator it says "This should be a tight fit."

http://hotrod.sapp-family.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/20171015_153739.jpg

Would you consider this a tight fit?

[RoadRacer]

LOL, I had the exact same reaction. Exactly!

Mine is the same loose-as-hell fit. So I added washers to take up the slack.. and then when fitting the overflow I removed washers that side (you probably see 1/4" gap, and the overflow uses 1/8").

By the way, if you're like mine, it won't fit because the aluminum bracket needs flattening, moving the overflow away from the UCA.

Just be grateful you had the grill!!! I have to jerry-rig my radiator because stage 1 doesn't include grill, that you need to attach radiator, that you need to start car. Don't get me started on stage 1 - it's a bit of a tease :)

[SingleMaltWSKY]

Agreed - The manual has more than a few shortcomings.

EG:

https://i.imgur.com/yQqN8IH.jpg

[TDSapp]

LOL, I had the exact same reaction. Exactly!

Mine is the same loose-as-hell fit. So I added washers to take up the slack.. and then when fitting the overflow I removed washers that side (you probably see 1/4" gap, and the overflow uses 1/8").

By the way, if you're like mine, it won't fit because the aluminum bracket needs flattening, moving the overflow away from the UCA.

Just be grateful you had the grill!!! I have to jerry-rig my radiator because stage 1 doesn't include grill, that you need to attach radiator, that you need to start car. Don't get me started on stage 1 - it's a bit of a tease :)



Actually I read earlier that the grill was not part of stage one so I talked to Courtnie and had her send the grill with the stage 1.

[RoadRacer]

actually i read earlier that the grill was not part of stage one so i talked to courtnie and had her send the grill with the stage 1.

cheater cheater!!

[RoadRacer]

Agreed - The manual has more than a few shortcomings.

EG:

https://i.imgur.com/yQqN8IH.jpg

LOL. I need to print this out for when people say "ugh, it's just a kit... bolts together".

[erlihemi]

Or the Bicycle fender mounts need to go on with the spindles, but wait, separate stages, addendums, and no wavy hand caution in that paragraph!! I originally was going to put a big flat screen in my garage so I could read the manual on CD in color while working on the car. NOT! After the second or 3rd sequence bungle I canned that idea. Then I just started hacking glass and put the pile together like my Revell kits in 3rd grade. Steal the engine out of the other box and use the optional parts from another kit.
So after you spend all that time getting the overflow mounted to the radiator only to find out it is too small for the engine you will put it back on the firewall...

Enjoy:)

[wrp]

There is a point where you stand back and look at what you did and feel really good about yourself. There are many points you stand back and look at it and say no f**king way!!!! The things I remember about mine were all the things that I had too do two or three times two or three different ways. Yea, ****, it is a kit car :)

[TDSapp]

cheater cheater!!

Yeah Yeah but I apparently did not cheat enough. It was after stage 1 was delivered that I found that neither the exhaust or the steering wheel comes with it. Hard to go-cart when you can't steer the car or hear anything from the open exhaust.



Or the Bicycle fender mounts need to go on with the spindles, but wait, separate stages, addendums, and no wavy hand caution in that paragraph!! I originally was going to put a big flat screen in my garage so I could read the manual on CD in color while working on the car. NOT! After the second or 3rd sequence bungle I canned that idea. Then I just started hacking glass and put the pile together like my Revell kits in 3rd grade. Steal the engine out of the other box and use the optional parts from another kit.
So after you spend all that time getting the overflow mounted to the radiator only to find out it is too small for the engine you will put it back on the firewall...

Enjoy:)

That's really the way I have been doing things as well. On this one though I did want to see what the manual said since I was also doing the AC and everything. I have heard of people having problems with getting it stacked right and wanted to see the order and what they said. The majority of the time the manual is lying on a box somewhere collecting dust.



There is a point where you stand back and look at what you did and feel really good about yourself. There are many points you stand back and look at it and say no f**king way!!!! The things I remember about mine were all the things that I had too do two or three times two or three different ways. Yea, ****, it is a kit car :)

Yeah I am looking forward to the day that I can stand back and look at it and feel that way. It's actually moving along very nicely though. I am running out of boxes for the stage 1 kit and will have to soon turn to the motor rebuilding.




Agreed - The manual has more than a few shortcomings.

EG:

https://i.imgur.com/yQqN8IH.jpg


I like this... This is also how we are expected to diagram the networks at work.

[cChrisM]

I'm sure its says to read the manual first before starting any work? LOL!!!!:o

[Papa]

I like this... This is also how we are expected to diagram the networks at work.

Here is what I typically see from our engineering department when they haven't really figured out the details:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4514/37744634632_5c726bd63b_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Zvn7SC)

I refer to the mystery cloud as PFM; Pure Magic

[TDSapp]

Here is what I typically see from our engineering department when they haven't really figured out the details:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4514/37744634632_5c726bd63b_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Zvn7SC)

I refer to the mystery cloud as PFM; Pure Magic


When I am trying to explain something in laymens terms I use a diagram like this and tell them that there is where it AutoMagically starts to work.

[CraigS]

Heck, wait until you get to the doors. They are a true gem and the manual for them is too. The best part is some of the pics are of the left door and some are of the right door and no explanation at all. We had two of us looking, looking, and looking and still had the right side interior frame in the left door for 2 hours.

[Doug @ Forma]

I've mentioned this in the Roadster forums, it could be worse. We have a K1 Attack kit here that we intended to build but there was just way too much undefined and the "manual" was one DVD with 20 some short how-to videos with no narration. The kit is made in the Czech republic and they don't speak english. The cost and pain to finish it isn't worth it.

That's why it sits here and likely won't come down.

76181

[AJT '33]

Guys, if the manual is as bad as you say, why don't you all (or a key few of you) get together and show some initiative in setting up a compiled version of the best of the best required revisions for the manual and set it up in a forum for all to benefit from?? I know its easier to complain rather than put all the information and knowledge of this forum (and possibly other forums) to good use, but to complain and not do something PRODUCTIVE AND HELPFUL about it does not help you or anyone else, nor does it help get your cars done.

As a manufacturer of commercial products myself it irks me when the only thing people do is complain instead of stepping up and getting involved to solve something that, for all intents and purpose, is an easy "fix" in this case. Be part of the solution not the dissent. You people are smart and innovative, step up and put it to some good use and HELP everyone here. I know I will need it as I build my 33 this winter, and I know you can use it for yours to help get them done quicker and cleaner. Thanks all!

[carbon fiber]

I completely disagree. If you are getting complaints about your product, it's YOUR responsibility to fix the issues not the customer. Getting "involved" means time, which is more valuable than money to me. The builders shouldn't have to re-write the manual or fix problems that could be addressed at the factory. If the fix is easy why don't they do it? If they made the kit and the manual correctly it would solve these issues PERMENANTLY FOR ALL BUILDERS. No more endless searching for the right thread that has the info you're looking for. (and having to go out to the garage and fix it also) Hundreds of people's headaches and wasted time (money) gone instantly. I think all of us have better things to do than "fix" what shouldn't be broken in the first place. Have you even started or received your kit or manual? Maybe wait until then to comment on them, to guys already in the middle of it.

[TDSapp]

Guys, if the manual is as bad as you say, why don't you all (or a key few of you) get together and show some initiative in setting up a compiled version of the best of the best required revisions for the manual and set it up in a forum for all to benefit from?? I know its easier to complain rather than put all the information and knowledge of this forum (and possibly other forums) to good use, but to complain and not do something PRODUCTIVE AND HELPFUL about it does not help you or anyone else, nor does it help get your cars done.

As a manufacturer of commercial products myself it irks me when the only thing people do is complain instead of stepping up and getting involved to solve something that, for all intents and purpose, is an easy "fix" in this case. <SNIP>

Ok two things. One, I am not the first person to say something about the manual so it is known that there are issues and they have never been fixed. I was venting because I had just spent quite a bit of time putting something together just to find that I needed to take it all apart.

Two, there have been offers to fix the manual but they were told that it was not in the budget.


Question for you though... Being a manufacture of commercial products, if you have people complaining about your product, which you sell, you expect the customer to fix the issue for you? You want them to fix something that they have paid for and then you profit from their free work? If it were the directions for your product and someone sent you a spot where it needed to be corrected would there be a reason that you would not fix it and would expect your customer to post all the corrections and a new set of directions on a web site?


Tell you what, you get FFR to send me an editable version of their manual and I will open a thread for manual corrections and will edit the manual, and keep it updated, for free and return it to FFR. Being a photographer I would also be willing to take some new photos and update them as well. I would add one catch though. FFR would have to send a free PDF version to everyone who has bought an FFR Hot Rod and is still working on it.

[RoadRacer]

If they’d only publish it in a public wiki we’d have it fixed in a heartbeat

[TDSapp]

why don't you all (or a key few of you) get together and show some initiative in setting up a compiled version of the best of the best required revisions for the manual and set it up in a forum for all to benefit from??



One additional thing. This is what we are all doing every time we post a build thread or post a message about missing manual item or incorrect photo. It would just be nice to not have to search on here every time we are about to start a new section of the car.

[UnhipPopano]

As more than one person has said, it is easier to complain than recommend a solution. It may also not be easy to understand that the problem is probably the tools being used. Having looked at only a manual for a 818, it was easy to see that each section was like a project in assembling one system at a time. In reality this would entail much disassembly in order to do later work. In the threads for the 818 was quite a bit of recommendations of "Do this first" and "If you follow the manual, you will not be able to access it later". On the other hand, if the manual was set up like a cook book, then it would be difficult to use it for troubleshooting and maintenance. Having an electronic version allows for making changes in the manual easier, but if the tool is like a word processor, then everything needs to be sequential only.

Now if someone would like to volunteer to write for F5 a new tool that would allow the steps to be seen both system by system or apply other sequences of assembly, then we might be able to make some improvements. Also, someone would have to talk F5 into using the tool once it is complete. Any volunteers?

[TDSapp]

If they’d only publish it in a public wiki we’d have it fixed in a heartbeat


Good idea... We could actually set one up ourselves. I have a web site with unlimited hosting and would only need a domain name for it.


We would not be able to use their manual in any way though since it is Copyrighted and has a non-disclosure statement in it. I am not sure if FFR would have any heart burn about it since it would really only help them sell more Hot Rods. Plus everything is already posted on the forums it would just be better formatted and organized much better.

[AJT '33]

Hey Everyone, love this discussion as I do believe we will get a solution out of this that will not only benefit us but possibly change the manner in which FFR addresses changes.

To address a few items out of this thread I offer the following:

- As an OEM it is our responsibility to issue corrections to errors or adjustments to clarify. As a manufacturer we would issue what we call a "Notification Bulletin" which is an information bulletin which informs but has no requirements, a "Service Bulletin" which is a notification that informs and provides solutions which has a required "Completion Date" of which it must be completed and last but not the least a "Safety Alert" which is a critical notification in that if not followed it could result in serious injury or death.

- I agree with Carbon Fiber in the correction of a manual falls with FFR, my expectation would be that they would issue any one of the above bulletins to all clients affected to ensure that their clients are informed appropriately. The only way that they can do this is if we, the client, would inform them and then they assess the impact and respond accordingly. They cannot be going through these forums to find issues. So our responsibility is to inform them, their responsibility is to act on any and all info received.

- As it pertains to my company as an OEM, bulletins, alerts or notifications, we take all input/feedback received from our clients and process it in a manner that allows us to determine which bin it would fall. The first and most effective way is to issue one of the three notifications above, then based on a set date or time of year, publish new versions of the manuals for distribution whilst notifying all affected clients. This can be done on a website or a link in an email, we do both in case our clients email has changed and they don't receive it.

- As for editing tools, we use a software called "Flare", this is an editor specifically made for this application, not expensive but not easy to setup however once setup very easy to edit. Others do exist so its up to FFR to figure that out. I honestly believe that since most of the changes are driven by the client making changes as prescribed above should not be difficult. My industry is much bigger than this so setting this up is quite simple. You can be assured that I will be going directly to FFR with any and all suggestions of good Customer Service practices going forward.

In summary, I believe that we should still provide input on build tricks to everyone here, however if it could make a big difference I would encourage everyone to send FFR corrections or suggestions that are comprehensive so they can do their part. I know as I move forward with my build now, my first job will be to read the manual from front to back, twice. Then revert back to the forums to see if there is anything here, then start my build and continue to revert back here. I like staying on the positive side as you can see, this has served me very well.

Again, great input!!!!

[erlihemi]

Well this is interesting. So given this is the FFR sponsored Forum and many issues commonly arise for the 818 and 33 there are a couple categories for change management to improve the written communication of How the Heck to build these things.
1) The build school could pick up on some of this and demonstrate improved techniques. Of course it should be a 5 day school at that point. $$$
2) FFR could endorse a "suggestions" section in the tech questions categorized by each model.
3) The live manual has more merit as changes continue to be introduced.
4) A real manual verification effort needs to be made in the first few Beta versions

FFR has traditionally put the first few serial numbers in the hands of experienced builders. When I was in the Army I would take 2 "recruits" with me every time a new piece of equipment was in prototype field testing. We would take the factory draft of the manual and tear down the equipment with standard issue field tools. I would document what couldn't be done in the field or with the manuals as written. Silly process.

For a 10-15% discount I would do similar with a GenIII type 65, 35 P.U. or whatever the next "thing" is. I am sure others would be to do so as well. I just semi retired so I gots the time now.

Challenge setting there...

[David Hodgkins]

I've got some ideas how I could use the forum to help maintain a "build manual" and I'll run them by Dave Smith tomorrow.

:)

[Jeff Kleiner]

The pitfalls I see for FFR in endorsing a "wiki" type format is the potential for inaccurate information to be added and then construed as being correct since the manufacturer is effectively putting their stamp of approval on it. Quite different than info posted by builders and users in these open forums.

JMHO of course...

Jeff

[RoadRacer]

The pitfalls I see for FFR in endorsing a "wiki" type format is the potential for inaccurate information to be added and then construed as being correct since the manufacturer is effectively putting their stamp of approval on it. Quite different than info posted by builders and users in these open forums.

JMHO of course...

Jeff

Well that would be true except that we all know there is already alot of inaccurate info in the manual today :) I haven't even got the body yet, and I've lost count of the number of photos/instructions that are plain wrong. Parts that completely changed design over the years, or shown mounted wrongly, or assembled out of order, or not shown at all. All very easy for us to fix, given that ability. Hell, on a wiki they can still review before publishing changes if they wish.

[carbon fiber]

- I agree with Carbon Fiber in the correction of a manual falls with FFR, my expectation would be that they would issue any one of the above bulletins to all clients affected to ensure that their clients are informed appropriately. The only way that they can do this is if we, the client, would inform them and then they assess the impact and respond accordingly. They cannot be going through these forums to find issues. So our responsibility is to inform them, their responsibility is to act on any and all info received.


In summary, I believe that we should still provide input on build tricks to everyone here, however if it could make a big difference I would encourage everyone to send FFR corrections or suggestions that are comprehensive so they can do their part.
That's the problem, lack of caring on FFR's part. I've contacted FFR to discuss the problems with the GTM, (trust me I know them at this point) and got the standard FFR brush off everyone else gets. Whether you need info/help or are willing to provide input/help, they don't seem to care much. It's no new news that their customer service is lacking. Search a few threads, there are regular complaints about it. I've never talked to Dave Smith directly, but if I could I'd try to emphasize the amount of business he's losing because of issues with the kits and the manuals being the way they are. The changes that need to be made would greatly benefit his business. I always talked up FFR before I got my GTM kit, not so much after. Symmetry problems on a post 1st generation kit are ridiculous. I'm a big fan of symmetry and customer service. As far as FFR being "informed by the builders" as to what's wrong physically with the kits, they already know. They build the kits. They've assembled multiple versions in house themselves, and are aware of the problems. I'm sending them a Christmas present this year.76207

[carbon fiber]

I'd also like to offer here on this forum any help I can to make FFR better. If Dave Smith is interested, I'd be glad to talk to him regarding the GTM's issues in hopes of improvement. I'd rather brag than complain about FFR but it's not up to me...

[Vman7]

That's the problem, lack of caring on FFR's part. I've contacted FFR to discuss the problems with the GTM, (trust me I know them at this point) and got the standard FFR brush off everyone else gets. Whether you need info/help or are willing to provide input/help, they don't seem to care much. It's no new news that their customer service is lacking. Search a few threads, there are regular complaints about it. I've never talked to Dave Smith directly, but if I could I'd try to emphasize the amount of business he's losing because of issues with the kits and the manuals being the way they are. The changes that need to be made would greatly benefit his business. I always talked up FFR before I got my GTM kit, not so much after. Symmetry problems on a post 1st generation kit are ridiculous. I'm a big fan of symmetry and customer service. As far as FFR being "informed by the builders" as to what's wrong physically with the kits, they already know. They build the kits. They've assembled multiple versions in house themselves, and are aware of the problems. I'm sending them a Christmas present this year.76207

+1 Yeppers! Don't even get me started on the new 35 pickup....ffr couldn't even get the door handles right! On second thought maybe, just maybe I will get started on the 35 pickup on how much FFR missed the mark! but in another thread of it's own.........maybe

[carbon fiber]

+1 Yeppers! Don't even get me started on the new 35 pickup....ffr couldn't even get the door handles right! On second thought maybe, just maybe I will get started on the 35 pickup on how much FFR missed the mark! but in another thread of it's own.........maybe

Understand Vman that I'm complaining for the right reasons. I'd like to see them improve, not just bash them. (for using your ideas, that you willingly posted up) I spent close to 25k with options, and I have a right to complain just like all the others here who put down their hard earned cash. Not trying to beat up on you here, just saying.

[Arrowhead]

Threads like this just make me smile. I think FFR has kind of painted themselves into a corner. They have been raising the bar every year and keep improving, so people's expectations keep getting higher and higher. Are the manuals or kits perfect? Of course not and there's always room for improvements. But go buy a hot rod "kit" from ANY other manufacture and check out their assembly manual. Oh wait, there isn't one. Or it's three or four pieces of paper stapled together with an exploded diagram of the chassis. Yea, I'm sure the manual needs a lot of work. Funny thing is, it's probably 50% thicker today than mine from 2009. Go way back on the forums and read some of the things people were complaining about, a lot of those issues have been taken care of - and yes may not show up in the manual yet. Would you prefer they didn't improve the kits so the manual was correct? Most people read through the manual before starting their build - that's why you can buy the manual upfront and then get credited the cost if you buy a kit. I think that might help alleviate some of these coordination issues between the manual and the actual build.

[Vman7]

Understand Vman that I'm complaining for the right reasons. I'd like to see them improve, not just bash them. (for using your ideas, that you willingly posted up) I spent close to 25k with options, and I have a right to complain just like all the others here who put down their hard earned cash. Not trying to beat up on you here, just saying.

Whatever....

[Rickyd31]

I purchased my kit knowing full well that all is not going to be perfectly as the manual states. How many people are going to plunk down 20K without a little research? The manual is more of a guide and as stated before, is remarkably complete. It attempts to guide a first time builder to a complete car. I think that if you don't enjoy the process you should have bought a completed car to begin with. I cannot leave much just as the manual states, I modify most everything. I almost consider it a disease. That being said if you try to follow the manual and use all of the supplied parts it can be done by an inexperienced builder in a relatively short time. You just must go in knowing that there will be some manual shortfalls, requiring a few re-do's. Try not to get bent about it and refer to these forums often for advice. That is why I am here. The forums are worth equally as much as the manual in my opinion. See, I just wasted 10 minutes of build time hunting and pecking away at these keys.

[edwardb]

This isn't an easy subject. In my former life when I actually had to work for a living (:rolleyes:) one of the things my team was responsible for was documentation (e.g. user manuals) for our very extensive and admittedly complicated IT applications. For anyone who hasn't done this type of thing before, it's a ton of work, constantly a struggle to keep them up to date, the right versions in the hands of the users, and as many will admit, not widely used. Always an easy excuse when something went wrong, but often not the "go-to" for training or problem solving. It was always a struggle, and we devoted a ton of resources to it.

What does that have to do with this? Speaking as someone who worked in large corporations my whole career, I'm amazed at what that relatively small team is able to accomplish. I'm not sure how many people realize just how small Factory Five is. The resources required to keep all of their documentation would be significant. This is especially challenging since each of their models have a wide variety of possible options, part choices, build configurations, etc. That's one of the things that's really attractive about their offerings. But also their worst nightmare when it comes to documentation. It would be very challenging to have every possibility documented. At least not without taking resources away from other things we probably would prefer they work on. Plus they are constantly making changes and improvements. Then there's the question of how widely it would be used even if available. How many times do we see questions posted on the forums that are 100% explained and pictured in the instructions?

That's not to say there's any excuse for bad/wrong pictures, outright errors, omissions, etc. I shake my head too sometimes at what I see in the manuals. Absolutely there's room for improvement. Just in my time between my Mk3 and Mk4 Roadster builds, I've seen significant improvement. So I know they're trying. But still room for lots more. If there's anything we can do as a community to help, I'd be all for it. I tend to agree with a couple of posters though. If buyers are looking for an "insert tab A into slot B" kind of manual that covers every possibility, this maybe isn't the right choice. And I'm not sure there is one.

[TDSapp]

The pitfalls I see for FFR in endorsing a "wiki" type format is the potential for inaccurate information to be added and then construed as being correct since the manufacturer is effectively putting their stamp of approval on it. Quite different than info posted by builders and users in these open forums.



Hell, on a wiki they can still review before publishing changes if they wish.

I was going to say that with a Wiki not only can you have some that can approve the change, we could limit who was allowed to add or update the Wiki as well. If you are running your own Wiki you don't have to leave it open to any one to change.



+1 Yeppers! Don't even get me started on the new 35 pickup....ffr couldn't even get the door handles right! On second thought maybe, just maybe I will get started on the 35 pickup on how much FFR missed the mark! but in another thread of it's own.........maybe


I'd also like to offer here on this forum any help I can to make FFR better. If Dave Smith is interested, I'd be glad to talk to him regarding the GTM's issues in hopes of improvement. I'd rather brag than complain about FFR but it's not up to me...

So, here I am talking about the manual only as it should be easier to manage than issues with the car\body\frame. It should be a rather easy fix for a manual vs having to rebuild body molds because the body does not have symmetry from side to side. This is something that FFR could fix much easier.




Threads like this just make me smile. I think FFR has kind of painted themselves into a corner. They have been raising the bar every year and keep improving, so people's expectations keep getting higher and higher. Are the manuals or kits perfect? Of course not and there's always room for improvements. But go buy a hot rod "kit" from ANY other manufacture and check out their assembly manual. Oh wait, there isn't one. Or it's three or four pieces of paper stapled together with an exploded diagram of the chassis. Yea, I'm sure the manual needs a lot of work. Funny thing is, it's probably 50% thicker today than mine from 2009. Go way back on the forums and read some of the things people were complaining about, a lot of those issues have been taken care of - and yes may not show up in the manual yet. Would you prefer they didn't improve the kits so the manual was correct? Most people read through the manual before starting their build - that's why you can buy the manual upfront and then get credited the cost if you buy a kit. I think that might help alleviate some of these coordination issues between the manual and the actual build.

Arrowhead you are wise beyond your years and I thank you for your input. Your build thread has saved me a ton of time and money and even gave me a few worries. ( For a while I thought the motor in my Vette had been replaced and I thought I was going to have to find another motor.)

I am glad to hear that the manual has changed quite a bit since you received your car. I did buy the PDF version of the manual and read through it before ordering the car. (I did not get it credited on my order but it's only $10 so I am not worried about that.) I am glad to have the manual but there are still issues with it. And as you say some kit makers just have an exploded diagram in it. I wish FFR had more diagrams in their manual as I see things better that way than photos most of the time. But they have to be correct. For instance on page 25 of the manual there is an exploded view of lower control arm. I used this diagram to build mine as it made more since to me than the text and photos. Problem is that the diagram does not have any of the four required jam nuts. When following the written directions on this they never reference putting the jam nut on the clevis or the linkage adjuster and they are there in the photos. When I built my lower control arms I put them all together as a test fit and just had the manual open to the first diagram. Got them all together and took a look at the remaining parts and realized that none of the jam nuts were there. Put them on and everything is good. But according to the manuals diagrams, the passenger side control arms has jam nuts but the drivers side does not.


As for not improving the kits so they would match the manual? No, I would rather both the kit and the manual be corrected. How hard would it be to produce a technical bulletin? Something that could be added to the manual at the back in an appendix and even emailed out the the current owners of the cars.



I purchased my kit knowing full well that all is not going to be perfectly as the manual states. How many people are going to plunk down 20K without a little research? The manual is more of a guide and as stated before, is remarkably complete. It attempts to guide a first time builder to a complete car. I think that if you don't enjoy the process you should have bought a completed car to begin with. I cannot leave much just as the manual states, I modify most everything. I almost consider it a disease. That being said if you try to follow the manual and use all of the supplied parts it can be done by an inexperienced builder in a relatively short time. You just must go in knowing that there will be some manual shortfalls, requiring a few re-do's. Try not to get bent about it and refer to these forums often for advice. That is why I am here. The forums are worth equally as much as the manual in my opinion. See, I just wasted 10 minutes of build time hunting and pecking away at these keys.

Ricky D,

I also purchased my kit knowing there would be some issues. I also removed several things from my order knowing I was going to upgrade them. For instance the rear end control arms, wire harness, and the Koni shocks. I knew going in that there were several things that were not going to match the manual at all. But while I have not built a car from the ground up or done a frame off resto, I have pulled, dropped and built several engines, replaced body panels, and worked on wiring. So I knew it was going to be quite a bit of work, and I am enjoying the hell out of it.


The manual is a great guide and really it sits on a box somewhere in the garage and is referenced every once in a while. But there are still places that are frustrating none the less and would drive a first time builder up a wall. What really started this rant for me was when I built the grill stack. I got all the way though it to basically find the next step was "If you want to put the overflow onto the stack please undo the last ten steps we had you do, put on the over flow and redo the ten steps." (Which includes mounting the grill stack to the car I might add.) Why not simply put the line "If you want to install the overflow on the grill stack then do it here." at the correct location.

But I, like you, think that the forum is worth more than the manuals. I have used the forum and the build threads more than I have used the manual. It is just frustrating when you run across something that could be fixed easily but it appears to be ignored.




In closing it appears that David Hodgkins, a site administrator, has an idea for being able to use "the forum to help maintain a "build manual". " Lets hope that David likes the idea and something gets implemented that will allow everyone to assist in keeping the manual updated as a living document.

[Arrowhead]

As for not improving the kits so they would match the manual? No, I would rather both the kit and the manual be corrected. How hard would it be to produce a technical bulletin? Something that could be added to the manual at the back in an appendix and even emailed out the the current owners of the cars.

Tim,

Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad my build thread was helpful. Out of curiosity, I just went though my email archive and found seven build manual updates I received from 2014-2017. So it is something they try to address.

[AJT '33]

Many bright minds can accomplish more than one!!! Again, love this dialogue, its great!

PS. I must admit that there are a few front facing people at FFR that could use an attitude adjustment or a swift kick in the butt. I do believe part, if not the bulk, of this problem lies there. The hardest thing that ANY company has to do is let go some of what they feel are key people (or re-assign them for the better of them and the company), which are really not that key, just have knowledge that is not shared well. Some may know who I may be referring to however I have had this scenario a couple times in my company and when you are small its hard however when you grow and get a few "really smart and efficient new people" you realize very quickly that a few key personnel moves can make an enormous difference. We did that here and took our company from a 30 employee company to over 150 in 5 short years and the result was our gross sales grew 5 fold, and those smart people with initiative, helped grow the bottom line.

It looks and feels to me that Dave is in the same situation now, the indicators of those cracks which need to be fixed, success can do this however I do believe Dave is a smart person and he can hopefully make those very hard key moves to reset FFR. Just my thoughts being fresh to building my 33 and this forum looking at this with a fresh set of eyes, I hope...

[carbon fiber]

So, here I am talking about the manual only as it should be easier to manage than issues with the car\body\frame. It should be a rather easy fix for a manual vs having to rebuild body molds because the body does not have symmetry from side to side. This is something that FFR could fix much easier.


As for not improving the kits so they would match the manual? No, I would rather both the kit and the manual be corrected.
This is my point exactly. You have to do a search to find out what's wrong and how to fix it. FFR understandably doesn't want to point these things out in the first place. What company wants to say "hey we screwed up the body so you'll have to fix it by doing these 20 steps" in print?" Nobody. To talk about the fixes requires talking about the problems. Updating the manual for fixes means pointing out problems. A 600 hour build time for a supercar sounds better than "you'll need to spend 600 just on the doors and hatch."

[TDSapp]

Tim,

Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad my build thread was helpful. Out of curiosity, I just went though my email archive and found seven build manual updates I received from 2014-2017. So it is something they try to address.


Seven updates in four years is great... I was not expecting to hear of that many I was thinking that once a year would keep everything up-to date but they have released almost two a year.


Tim

[David Hodgkins]

I'd like to offer an idea of a Community based Build Instructions forum for the Hotrod.

My idea is to have thread that have, say, each 10 pages as it's topic (or a logical grouping based on the steps).

Each FIRST POST is the OFFICIAL set of steps included in those pages, with either the original content or UPDATED content. The posts below the first post are for user input and corrections.

I (and the mods, plus maybe 1 or two build experts per vehicle) would control the thread creation in this forum. An Example thread list(with made-up pg #'s, it's just an example):

Prereq 1: Tools
Prereq 2: Body Buck
STEP 1: Inventory pgs 3-4
STEP 2: Front Suspension pgs 5-8
STEP 3: Rear suspension pgs 15-18
STEP 4: Driver's pedals pgs 9-15 <-- corrected build sequence order example

That way the first post can be maintained and updated as needed, and the posts below can be a way for the community to suggest changes, add relevant pics, etc. Good suggestions from posts below could be weaved into the "official" first post.

Maybe - as an additional idea - also we could limit viewing and participation to self-declared Hotrod Owners? I could create a Hotrod user category that allows access to the forum? Frankly, I'd prefer owners only having input.

Thoughts?

:)

[erlihemi]

Dave I like the idea of owners/builders only having input. You may want to do it by the major manual sections. That way you only have 6 or 7 threads. There isn't a huge amount wrong per se, its just sequence issues and omissions. Too many re used Cobra pictures in some cases, etc. I would try to flag updates and revisions as they come out.

Try it and see what the feed back is. We can only complain about both the manual and the thread then.:)

[Arrowhead]

I'd like to offer an idea of a Community based Build Instructions forum for the Hotrod.

My idea is to have thread that have, say, each 10 pages as it's topic (or a logical grouping based on the steps).

Each FIRST POST is the OFFICIAL set of steps included in those pages, with either the original content or UPDATED content. The posts below the first post are for user input and corrections.

I (and the mods, plus maybe 1 or two build experts per vehicle) would control the thread creation in this forum. An Example thread list(with made-up pg #'s, it's just an example):

Prereq 1: Tools
Prereq 2: Body Buck
STEP 1: Inventory pgs 3-4
STEP 2: Front Suspension pgs 5-8
STEP 3: Rear suspension pgs 15-18
STEP 4: Driver's pedals pgs 9-15 <-- corrected build sequence order example

That way the first post can be maintained and updated as needed, and the posts below can be a way for the community to suggest changes, add relevant pics, etc. Good suggestions from posts below could be weaved into the "official" first post.

Maybe - as an additional idea - also we could limit viewing and participation to self-declared Hotrod Owners? I could create a Hotrod user category that allows access to the forum? Frankly, I'd prefer owners only having input.

Thoughts?

:)

Dave, maybe it's time to open up access to the wiki pages that are already part of this forum. It looks like FFR has the only access, it's a way underutilized resource.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/content.php?143-wikis

Also, i'm not clear on the content. Is it to clarify and expand on the build manual? Or to provide tips and tricks (like we started on the "other" forum)? What about all the other and future FFR models? I can see people getting very creative with the new truck and, as us builders inevitably do, come up with solutions to problems that don't exist. Are we trying to provide a condensed version of the collective forum knowledge? Will there be a dedicated forum and subgroups for the truck? (If FFR keeps this up were gonna crash this software HaHa) Maybe open up the current wiki for public viewing, but only be edited by owners/builders? Just some random thoughts, George

[TDSapp]

I agree with Arrowhead on this one that the Wiki should be considered before a thread based system. I don't like it with the threads as there always seems to be issues with the threads jumping around post getting knocked out of order somehow.

I do like the idea of owners only... It will keep comments and updates from the peanut gallery who have never built, or are not building, a Hot Rod.


I don't like the idea of only master builders being able to have any input or make updates. While I have not finished my car and I am not a "master builder" I think I still have plenty to offer. I can do many photos (former new paper photographer and still have all the equipment) and even though I have not been through some stages of the car, I might come up with a solution that no one else has. (Maybe... It could happen) I would say to open it to Hot Rod owners but have the master builders with the rights to correct any issues they come across. Then later if someone keeps posting updates that are wrong or uncalled for you can remove their access for "violations"

[David Hodgkins]

If we go with the thread model it will feed the WIKI.

I'm going to order a manual from FFR and set up the forum with some "beta users" to get feedback, sometime this week and we'll see how it goes. I really want to try and help out on this commonly discussed topic...

:)

[Arrowhead]

Sounds great Dave. Maybe this will help get things started. Here are the seven updates I had gotten with the links. I'm curious to see if the manual you get incorporates these updates. Hope this helps, George

4/9/14
- Door Hinge/Frame/Door Assembly
- Engine Side Covers Install
- Transmission Tunnel Cover Install
- Fuel Tank Install
- Master Cylinder Install
- Striker Cover
- Fuel Tank Side Cover Install
- Headlight Connections
https://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Hot_Rod_Manual_rev-1V-update.pdf?utm_source=iContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Factory%20Five%20Racing,%20Inc.&utm_content=33-Update-1V

5/16/14
- Ignition Switch Wiring
- Steering Column Wiring
- Fan Wiring
- Fan Thermostat Switch
https://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Hot_Rod_Manual_rev-1X-update.pdf?utm_source=iContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Factory%20Five%20Racing,%20Inc.&utm_content=HotRod-Update-May2014

7/25/14
- Steering Column Wiring
https://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Hot_Rod_Manual_rev-1Z-update.pdf?utm_source=iContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Factory%20Five%20Racing,%20Inc.&utm_content=HotROd-Update-July2014

8/6/15
- Front Suspension
- 4-Link Suspension
- 3-Link Suspension
- Power Windows
- Carpet
http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Hot_Rod_Manual_rev-2C-update.pdf?utm_source=iContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Factory%20Five%20Racing,%20Inc.&utm_content=33-manual-update

3/11/16
- Door Hinge Fitment
- Hood Hinge Stricker
- Optional Clutch Cable Hole
- Shorty Pipes and Mufflers
- Rear Exit Exhaust
http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Hot_Rod_Manual_rev-2G-update.pdf?utm_source=iContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Factory%20Five%20Racing,%20Inc.&utm_content=hot-rod-manual-update-2H

http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Hot_Rod_Manual_rev-2H-update.pdf?utm_source=iContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Factory%20Five%20Racing,%20Inc.&utm_content=hot-rod-manual-update-2H

6/28/16

- Optional Parts Instructions
- Front Coil-Over Shock Assembly
- Rear Coil-Over Shock Assembly
- 2015 IRS
- Pedal Box
- Engine, Transmission, and Driveshaft
- Driveshaft Lengths
http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Hot_Rod_Manual_rev-2J-update.pdf?utm_source=iContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Factory%20Five%20Racing,%20Inc.&utm_content=33-2J-Manual-Update

1/16/17
- Optional Hardtop Exterior Door Handle
(broken link)

[Brave Salmon]

Dave, I agree with the "owners only" approach but would include our custom builders who do many more of these than the rest of us. The key is that all changes/upgrades to the manuals need to be vetted by a central committee of experienced builders of the specific vehicle. I would also suggest sections of your documents to include the changes to assembly steps (grill/radiator/overflow stack), recommended enhancements to improve both safety and functionality of components( silver shocks must be installed upright only), special tools and techniques to ease assembly, (Clecos, air riveter, proper rivnuts), and drive train specific tips to help with installations specific to that brand (LS, Coyote, etc).

Yeah, something needs to be done to the process but for one time builders like myself I'm afraid it's to late to help most of us. I will finish mine soon and look back at it as an adventure; one not for the foolhardy. Thanks fof all your help.

[Big Blocker]

Papa,

I absolutely love your post #11 . . . almost 20 years in Telecommunications that was network driven, I truly appreciate what you posted, is EXACTLY what I worked with 24/7. Ha! Gotta love the "FM" cloud . . .

Dave, I know you already know this aspect of building: Everyone builds their car differently, to their own taste or purpose of use.

I wish you all the luck in the world trying to make a build manual that covers every aspect of every possible installation scenario for every possible builders idea of HOW it should be.

FWIW, customization precludes a manual for the masses and really only works in a very generic way - sorry.

Doc

[carbon fiber]

I wish you all the luck in the world trying to make a build manual that covers every aspect of every possible installation scenario for every possible builders idea of HOW it should be.



Doc
How about a manual that's CORRECT for a stock build? Is that too much to ask? EVIDENTLY.

[JimLev]

Guess I'll wait for a while before I order a manual. Was hoping to order the hot rod in Feb.
I liked the "FM" cloud too. We always referred to the custom equipment the customer thought we built as standard run of the mill equipment as "vapor ware". Just get the order and we'll figure it out after we have the PO. Lack of complete manuals were also a big problem.
Hope things get better quickly. Good job Arrowhead.

[TDSapp]

Sounds great Dave. Maybe this will help get things started. Here are the seven updates I had gotten with the links. I'm curious to see if the manual you get incorporates these updates. Hope this helps, George

8/6/15
- Front Suspension
- 4-Link Suspension
- 3-Link Suspension
- Power Windows
- Carpet
http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Hot_Rod_Manual_rev-2C-update.pdf?utm_source=iContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Factory%20Five%20Racing,%20Inc.&utm_content=33-manual-update


6/28/16

- Optional Parts Instructions
- Front Coil-Over Shock Assembly
- Rear Coil-Over Shock Assembly
- 2015 IRS
- Pedal Box
- Engine, Transmission, and Driveshaft
- Driveshaft Lengths
http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Hot_Rod_Manual_rev-2J-update.pdf?utm_source=iContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Factory%20Five%20Racing,%20Inc.&utm_content=33-2J-Manual-Update




Arrowhead,

I have checked my manual 2o for the two updates above and the update from 8/6/2015 is complete with no issues. The update from 6/28/2016 has a couple errors in it.



On page 15 of the update the following line is not present in my manual.

Attach the clutch cable to the firewall spacer using the small #6 screw provided and ¼” wrench.


and

On Page 19 of the update

the Appendixes are different and my manual is missing

Fill the engine and Transmission with fluids. See Appendix K for specifications and capacities.


Everything else including the screwed up words like "pedal travel.terference." appear to be word for word out of the update.

[Brave Salmon]

Whoa, don't let a few negative comments stop you from joining our club. Yes, the manual needs work. The pictures and some steps are out of sequence. The comments you've seen here are directed at improving what is already a very usable document. I encourage you to buy the digital copy and install it on your pc/tablet. Go through it a bit at a time and compare it with the comments in the forums and you will quickly find the discrepancies. I have never built a complete car before this one and my background is computer hardware not auto mechanics. I've dabbled in fixing broken cars to save money over the years but that's it. If you have even the basic skills needed to do basic maintenance on your family vehicles you can build one of these cars. You'll be amazed at how quickly the car goes from boxes to go cart. You'll find your build will be much easier when you understand that there are dozens of experienced builders to help you. Key among them are the guys at Factory Five. Get to know them and use them at every opportunity to make this project more fun. Go for it. Buy the manual, consider the build school and don't sweat the small stuff.

[TDSapp]

Sorry, weird double post.

[HVACMAN]

Ditto what Brave Salmon said. Most of us use the manual as a rough guide. I know I have changed many things in my build from what the manual dictates. That is what makes the 33 so awesome. The possibilities are almost limitless as to what you can do with this car to make yours and unlike any other on the road.

[carbon fiber]

I wouldn't be scared off either, it's a great kit. Still a bargain for what you get IMO. I've seen from everything from drag style with a blower to road race style with aerodynamic aides.

[erlihemi]

I have to say that for me it wasn't the individual "errors and omissions" as much as the out of sequence issues. I certainly wasn't building from the box and have become accustomed to 80% documentation I guess. The other thing that I have mentioned several times in various places is the hidden cost of things that may be manufacturing or design issues ignored by the manual. Also things like a lack of dimensions and intended suspension geometry. Sorry, but a measurement from floor to frame is not an accurate method of getting the control arms in the ideal location. Following the manual easily cost me double in wheels and tires on the rear. The manual I have states to use a specific rear differential width and specific back space, however the wheels FFR was selling did not match those dimensions! I noticed they no longer offer them either. Given what's readily available on the market in wheels will probably result in using the later model rear that is wider. The MKIV however does prefer the earlier narrow rear and that's how most of the problems with the manual and the products started. Cobra cut and paste.
It is what it is. Until you put an $80k car in the mirror, the $40k you have to spend seems to exceed the sweat equity...

[JimLev]

OK, thanks for the positive thoughts. I'm a good wrench with years of fixing cars, rebuilding car and motorcycle engines, engine swaps, suspension upgrades, etc.
With you guys that have already gone thru this if I do run into a problem I'm sure one or more of you can answer my question(s).

[rapidray]

I have just started my build (last week) and thanks to all the people here who have posted suggestions and ideas I thought I would post a few comments. First let me say that if you do not have a well equipped tool box and have not attempted a project of this size I would highly suggest you attend the build school. The manual should only be used as a guide. Go through this forum and read what others have been through and what they have done to solve the problem prior to starting the build. For the folks who publish the manual I would like to see the pictures in the manual at least enclose a 3 foot section so that you get an idea of what the assembly looks like from a distance and not so close up that you cant see how it all goes together. As a side note I would also like to give a pat on the back to the folks at factory five for there willingness to help. I have called them several times with questions and they have been more than helpful. Cheers

[NAZ]

Just noticed this is an old thread.

[Ray]

I received my build manual a few weeks before the car was delivered. Must have read it through 5x’s by the time Stewart Transport showed up. Highlights, bookmarked, stickie noted several pages with information like you’re discussing. Saved me lots of time not having to go back and forth undoing and redoing things.

Yes, the manual’s not perfect but it’s a damn sight better then other manuals I’ve seen.

Ray

[edwardb]

I received my build manual a few weeks before the car was delivered. Must have read it through 5x’s by the time Stewart Transport showed up. Highlights, bookmarked, stickie noted several pages with information like you’re discussing. Saved me lots of time not having to go back and forth undoing and redoing things.

Yes, the manual’s not perfect but it’s a damn sight better then other manuals I’ve seen.

Ray

Agree 100% with this post. Time spent in serious study of the manual will pay off. Will it answer every question and give you every single step? No. There are just too many variables to expect Factory Five to cover every nuance. A build takes significant investment in time and initiative by the builder. IMO some aren't prepared for that. I am a big supporter of this forum and try to do my part to pay forward what I've learned. But a whole bunch of the questions that come up here are covered in the manual or separate specific instructions. Either missed or just not reviewed deeply enough. So even a perfect manual isn't the answer in all cases.

[AJT '33]

Agree 100% with this post. Time spent in serious study of the manual will pay off. Will it answer every question and give you every single step? No. There are just too many variables to expect Factory Five to cover every nuance. A build takes significant investment in time and initiative by the builder. IMO some aren't prepared for that. I am a big supporter of this forum and try to do my part to pay forward what I've learned. But a whole bunch of the questions that come up here are covered in the manual or separate specific instructions. Either missed or just not reviewed deeply enough. So even a perfect manual isn't the answer in all cases.

Also agree, the manual is a general guide and not a specific build manual. The one thing I would add is that every time we completed specific sections or pages I clipped off the corner so I knew it was 1100% completed, if it wasn't I left it as is until it was completed. It's kind of fun to see the progress of the corners being clipped away as portions of the build are completed. As well I wrote at the back of the book what needs re-tightening or verification prior to completion.