Been lurking...

[Mark Krieger]

My buddy suggested coming over here to look at building a FF kit. I am a mostly-retired guy who has done some car fiddling over the years -- I have taken apart a nice old 914, done a lot of work on it, owned a Fiat 124 spyder in the 70's which I had to learn a lot to keep running well; and mostly maintained various other cars which had carbs and a 'person' could tune up, etc, but nothing like this.

I would love to build a kit into a running car, especially something as nice as the cars I have seen here. I have some questions though before I even think about it, I hope people can help ---

I do not have a huge amount of space -- my garage on my 90 year old (lovely but small) house is not large. First job would be to clean it out so I would have room for this project. I would have like zero room for a donor car, and I also would not be happy to have the job of pulling apart a donor car and then getting rid of it (that might be a way to never finish anything, at least for me). And I have read many stories about donor cars with engine/trans issues too... So I would probably want the 'complete kit' -- and then to buy a new or rebuilt engine and transmission and rear end.

Q1. What are some sources for rebuilt or even new engines which are pretty stock and straightforward? (I do not need 500 hp, etc, at least I think I don't). When I went to the porsche racing [track days] the speed on the track kind of gave me a large headache, so I was more the mechanic of my lovely old shared 914). My buddy raced it, I made sure it did not fall apart, and I drove it most of the year on the street when he did not have it on the track. Same question for transmissions: New or rebuilt sources, can afford quality, but do not want to break the bank. Same for rear end...looking for sources.

Q2. Body work and paint: I have used a local excellent quality body shop for various fixes over the years when people have hit my cars; and when a deer hit the 914! what will a quality paintjob typically cost? I'm not holding anyone to anything :) but I would love to have an idea, I might prep it, not sure. But I might not.

Q3. How long is a 'complete' kit likely to take to build? Just curious, because all of the threads seem to talk about donor cars....

Q4: Do the instructions give a list of tools? I have a torque wrench, a nice hydraulic jack, hand tools, but it sounds like a proper fancy drill, riveting equipment, various jacks, etc are needed. Anything I should know about in the tools dept?

That's it for now, I really appreciate this forum, I have been reading and learning a lot.

Mark

[riptide motorsport]

Welcome , you can always get a base kit and a donor pallet also, but complete kit is cool too. Engines are easy, vendors on here or just go to aDVANCE AUTO AND BUY ONE. 200 hours to get it running and driving, 100 for paint. paint cost 4-6 thousand, many drive in the bare gel coat body for years before painting. no fancy tools, you got pretty much all of them. Do it , you won't regret it!!!!!!!!...........HTH ..............Steven

[Mark Krieger]

Thanks Steven -- a donor pallet? Where do I get that?

[edwardb]

Hi Mark. Welcome to the madness! I was where you are a couple of years ago... always wanted to do a kit car, some mechanical ability and experience, some tools, etc. But lots of questions. This forum, and the "other one" is a huge source of knowledge and help. But as is always the case, lots of opinions and lots of people very willing to help you spend your money. But it's your car and your build, so do what works best for you. You have to decide about your budget, as that will drive a lot of decisions. Be realistic, and expect it will probably be too low. For me anyway, quite a number of surprises along the way. None were terribly expensive, but they do add up. Second, decide what you are going to do with the car. Street only? Auto-X? Track? Also makes a big difference in the types of components which are suitable. I'll give my take on your specific questions:

Q1: Huge variation in what's available. What are the licensing and emissions requirements where you live? This could decide whether to go basic carb, or full up EFI, CAT's, etc. A Ford 302 or 351 small block is a good economical build, with 351 being very popular because they can make good power with minimal upgrades. I bought a used engine and overhauled it. It was a good experience, and (so far!) has turned out OK. But if doing it over again, I might be persuaded to go the crate motor route. Something from Ford Racing, or one of the other well known vendors. Transmission is going to depend on the engine you choose, e.g. HP and torque. A T5z is a good and easy choice for a mild small block, and available new in the $1200 range. Lots of other choices as well. For the rear end, going to depend first on whether you go solid axle or IRS. Again, though, lots of choices.

Q2: Another similar answer -- depends on what you want. Guys do the body work and paint themselves for hundreds of dollars. Or you can go the full show paint route and get into the $8-9-10K range very quickly. And everything in between. Just depends on what you want and how much you want to spend. You will probably find that your normal body guy doesn't do fiberglass, and/or he hasn't done an FFR before. I would never have someone do one of these that hasn't done them before. If you buy a new kit (Mk4) the body is supposed to be way better, but still it's a bit of an art, and I wouldn't let someone practice on my build. On my Mk3, I did the rough body work, mounted panels, etc., and did some of the grunt work. I found a local guy that's done 6-8 of these, with good references, and he's doing the final body work and paint. Full show clear, cut & buff, etc. A mid to high end paint job. It will be $6-7K, depending on final material costs. Based on what I've learned, that's pretty normal (if a bit less) for a decent quality show finish.

Q3: Another "It depends"! Sorry. Read about guys getting them done in weeks/months, others taking years. I will have about two years in mine, when done (hopefully) in August. Depends on the amount of time you have, what help you have available, whether you rebuild an engine or not, etc. FFR started out with the donor concept, so for sure you hear a lot about that. But as good donor candidates have become harder to find, and guys simply want new builds with new parts, I'd be willing to bet new builds are as common (or more so) than donor builds. Just hasn't always been that way. Mine is a new build, and I'm glad I went that way because I just don't have the experience to make all the right choices otherwise. Plus time is limited with job, business travel, family, etc. But you will routinely find guys buying the complete kit and doing a new build, but still parting out major parts of the kit (e.g. brakes, etc.) and going for upgrades. I'm not sure that's the best choice either, but that's just my opinion. It's been discussed a lot that it's possible to buy the basic kit and source all the parts for the complete kit probably for less and probably with upgrades in some cases. But it definitely takes time, and knowledge/experience. The FFR complete kit, built as provided, is a solid and reliable set-up.

Q4: Sounds like you have the basics. You will need jack stands, a floor jack (or two), the usual variety of socket wrenches, etc. An electric or air drive drill, drill bits including a bunch of 1/8 bits for all the rivets, a step drill or two (invaluable), and something to pull pop rivets with. You say "riveting equipment" but the standard build isn't bucking rivets (e.g. like in an aircraft build). Just a regular pop rivet tool will work, although I know a lot of guys get an air driven one. I didn't but in hindsight might not have been a bad idea. You will also need some basic electrical tools, like a VOM, wire strippers, crimpers, etc. I'm lucky to have a Harbor Freight retail store a few miles from where I work, so I've been able to pick up some of the things I needed pretty reasonably. Have to be very careful about some of the things they sell, but for some things, especially if only used a few times, works out pretty well and about as cheap as possible.

Personally, I would recommend that you purchase the FFR assembly manual. It's pretty cheap ($10) and can be downloaded. While I haven't seen the new one, it's apparently much improved over the previous versions. Regardless, it probably doesn't have every detail, but it will absolutely give you a detailed view of what it's like to build, what tools are needed, some of the choices you have to make, etc.

Hope this helps! Good luck.

[LuckyWinner]

Just do it!!!

[Martin]

Thanks Steven -- a donor pallet? Where do I get that?

I think Breeze automotive is the closest thing to a donor pallet.

Martin

[seagull81]

These guys are over on the FFCars site and advertise donor pallets. http://mpsautosalvage.com/sunshop/

[Hankl]

I am a mostly-retired guy who has done some car fiddling over the years -- I have taken apart a nice old 914, done a lot of work on it, owned a Fiat 124 spyder in the 70's which I had to learn a lot to keep running well; and mostly maintained various other cars which had carbs and a 'person' could tune up, etc, but nothing like this.


Mark,

If you have taken apart a 914, and maintained a Fiat 124, you have the credentials to play with us! Where are you located, so people in your area can give you a hand with local sources.

Hank :cool:

[steve73]

Hi Mark,

You certainly have more mechanical knowledge that I did when I started and I'm sure both of us will be fine. Regarding the Donor queestion - here is my post from another thread:

"I have to agree with Joe's post earlier on this one. After gutting my doner 90LX and starting my build, I am coming to the realization that the only things I will likely be using from the doner will be:

Gas tank and straps -spent hours grinding off the rust
Rear end - spent way to much on gears and a rebuild
T-5 trans - could have bought a new one for the price of my rebuild
302 - haven't touched it yet but you can see where this is going...

Hindsight is 20/20 but if I could do it over I would go with the complete kit. I did however take a macabre delight in destroying an otherwise good car! "

Either way - donor or not - you are going to have a great time.

Cheers.

[Mark Krieger]

Wow, great answers, thanks. I am in NJ, lots of resources near here -- I am midway between NY and Princeton. I think I've read on the forum that the NJDMV can be persuaded (with a lot of work) to license the vehicle. I will look up some of the sources. I saw that Ford Racing charged more or less $7k for a crate motor, but do they all work in this car? What about wiring harnesses? And when I looked up rebuilt engines ending in 'X' they seem to cost about $3k. Anyone with experience with rebuilds? Transmissions seemed the easiest to find, and new.

I like the idea of buying the manual, that is a great idea. thanks ed.

Mark

[Mark Krieger]

Yes, I just went to this site and found a $5k full 4.6L engine, trans, wiring, computer, rear end, some other parts for a FF rebuild from a 96 mustang. thanks.

Mark

[Mark Krieger]

I looked at Breeze too, they have a nice 'pallet' of new stuff which looks like it makes the build a 'breeze' :) thanks for the lead on that.

[Martin]

Mark @ Breeze has probably the best reputation of all the supporting vendors on here. His stuff includes every nut/bolt/washer you need. No more running off the the store to get that thingymajig you think you need...



I looked at Breeze too, they have a nice 'pallet' of new stuff which looks like it makes the build a 'breeze' :) thanks for the lead on that.

[WAYNES WORLD]

Welcome,
You should see if there is some one local to you that is building a car so you could take a look at it. It should give you a better idea on the scope of the project. Not sure if the build school is having any classes soon but that may be a good place to start too.
Wayne

[MPTech]

Here's my Blog I started last week (I hope this link works):
MPTech Blog (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/blog.php?806-MPTech-Building-my-Factory-Five-Roadster/page2)

go to the very bottom and take a look at my Plan. This may help help you.

I decided to go with the Basic Kit so I could pick & choose my components and I could start earlier if I didn't have to save for the complete kit.
I've bought 90% of the parts I needed from forum members here & on FFCars. Even a complete / upgraded engine and EFI wiring harness!
I bought some donor parts initially, then decided to buy new or reman and either sold the original or turned it in for core (ie: brakes, PS steering rack, brake booster, etc)
I also bought some brand new parts from members that got them with the complete kit and went a different direction (ie: FFR radiator and fuel tank)

I don't have the room or time to tear-down a donor (and I'm sure our home owners association would have a say-so about it as well). I was also concerned that many of the original donor parts are getting so old that they would cause issues (ie: brakes, ps rack, fuel tank, etc)
I've also enjoyed doing the research and selecting which components I want to use and which ones I can upgrade to later.

hope this helps! go for it, you won't regret it.

Mark

ps: I can send you the plan / template if you'd like to use it. PM me your email address.

[riptide motorsport]

Cypress auto salvage does a donor pallet also I believe. they get all the parts from their scrap yard car and put it all on a pallet and ship it to your door sans the car.........Steven