Gator's 818R [Archive] - Page 2 - Factory Five Forums

Sgt.Gator

07-29-2020, 12:51 AM

Gator, I believe your original argument was that the oil was being pumped into the heads faster than it could drain back to the sump. This is now debunked. The oil slosh problem could be prevented by using a combination of the arctangent windage plate along with a redesign of the oil pan shape. As far as your broken screw, do you think you might have over tightened it? A stainless screw might be less prone to breakage due to brittleness. You are awesome.

Hi Lance, I think it's actually both the pump filling the heads AND the oil sloshing back up. If the G force is strong enough to send the oil into the head from the sump, then certainly any oil being pumped into the head is going to be staying there too. Correct? So the arctangent plate will help, but it's not the total cure.

I have no idea if it was over tightened. Maybe. I'm getting old, I don't even remember installing the plate!

Have you seen the new Corvette C8 dry sump system? It comes on ALL the new C8s. Pretty impressive system. They went to a great deal of trouble to design a dry sump for a 1.25 G V8 car. :

https://hips.hearstapps.com/autoweek/assets/Corvette-oiling-system.jpg

https://www.autoweek.com/news/technology/a2154901/5-ways-2020-corvettes-midengine-layout-led-better-chevy-small-block-v8/#:~:text=It's%20all%20dry%20sump%2C%20all%20the%20 time&text=On%20the%202020%20Corvette%2C%20all,sloshing% 20around%20in%20the%20crankcase.

And a more direct comparison to our boxer flat engine design, the Porsche 911 GT3 has 7 scavenge pumps:
Dry-sump lubrication
Motorsport principles are also applied to the engine’s oil supply. Continued lubrication is vital, especially at very high engine speeds of up to 9,000 rpm and under the effects of the particularly high lateral and longitudinal acceleration that can be experienced on the racetrack.

Seven scavenge pumps in total return the engine oil quickly and efficiently to the external oil tank. Together with a new oil pressure pump offering fully variable displacement, optimum oil pressure is assured in all operating conditions. This system provides reliable lubrication of hard-working components and increases the robustness of the engine under heavy use on the racetrack.

Also new is the particularly efficient supply of oil to the heavily loaded connecting rod bearings. This is realised by a central oil feed into the crankshaft. Another innovation sees the oil efficiently defoamed by a centrifuge before it is delivered to the separate oil tank. This engineering solution originates from high-performance motorsport and is also used in the Porsche 919 Hybrid, an LMP1 class competitor.
https://www.porsche.com/norway-son/no/models/911/911-gt3-models/911-gt3/drive-chassis/dry-sump-lubrication/

Sgt.Gator

07-29-2020, 11:00 AM

Bob_n_Cincy

07-29-2020, 12:49 PM

Mitch Wright

07-29-2020, 03:29 PM

Bob yes 90 is believable, coasting, braking/off throttle would be my guess with the drop to 78. When Rob was here a few weeks ago his Oil pressure was about the same as yours with I believe the same DS system. My wet sump system was always 70-80PSI on throttle and would see it drop to 60ish PSI off throttle

Hobby Racer

07-29-2020, 03:46 PM

The used EJ 257 is going back in now. Because we are using the original JDM ECU we had to lock off the AVCS system. Back to ORP this weekend for more testing Fri-Sat-Sun.
Next winter we'll swap in a Link ECU for more versatility and flexibility. I'd still like to join Hobby in the EZ 30 or 36 program. I've got more ideas on how to dry sump both of them.

Go for it! You'll love the torque down low coming out of the corners. I just fixed my sensor gremlin so the EZ36 now revs to its 6500 red-line again. I'll be back at Watkins Glen in late August to test everything out. If my swing arm oil pickup does not do the trick, I'll be adding a dry sump to my EZ36 this winter.

Man I wish there were more people in my area racing these, I'm all alone out here :(

Sgt.Gator

07-30-2020, 06:53 PM

With all this talk about oil pressure. I have a question. My system is an Avaid dry sump system.
Here is a diagram of my system:

132660

Here is a chart of a Lap at NCM Motorsports Park.

132661

The Green line is my oil pressure. At hot 600 RPM idle the pressure is about 25 PSI. At anything above 2500 it is around 90 PSI.
I'm running 5w-40 Rotella T6 full Synthetic oil.

First Question: Is the 90 PSI believable?
Second Question: I see downward glitches in the oil pressure to about 78 psi. What wouuld cause that?

Thanks Bob

It's believable, but your oil is not really hot yet. A chart on your 10th lap instead of the 2nd might be quite different. I know when I come in from 20 laps and I'm idling thru the paddock I have to keep my rpm up to keep the oil pressure above the warning alarm at 15 psi.

Also does your data logger have G-Forces? On my AIM datalogger I can create a chart with Oil Pressure with Long G, Lat G and RPM. That is what you really want to know. But it shouldn't matter with a dry sump. If for some reason you get pressure drops at the same time you have spikes in either of those GForces either you sensor is having issues or something is not working right.

Bob_n_Cincy

07-31-2020, 09:04 AM

It's believable, but your oil is not really hot yet. A chart on your 10th lap instead of the 2nd might be quite different. I know when I come in from 20 laps and I'm idling thru the paddock I have to keep my rpm up to keep the oil pressure above the warning alarm at 15 psi.

Also does your data logger have G-Forces? On my AIM datalogger I can create a chart with Oil Pressure with Long G, Lat G and RPM. That is what you really want to know. But it shouldn't matter with a dry sump. If for some reason you get pressure drops at the same time you have spikes in either of those GForces either you sensor is having issues or something is not working right.

Gator, Thanks for your Response.
With my oil temp around 200, the oil pressure is in the low 20's at 800 rpm. Temperature makes a huge difference, I see 60psi at cold start.

I need to get back out on the track get some more data.

Unfortunately, I don't have a dedicated data logger. I'm using the BTSSM phone app. To get oil temp and pressure I use the ECU analog inputs that originally went to the TGV sensors. I can move those two ECU inputs to a G sensor but I would lose the oil temp and pressure.
Bob

Rob T

08-01-2020, 06:01 AM

Bob_n_Cincy

08-01-2020, 10:00 AM

Hi: I see 95psi or so at cold start. I saw 85+psi with 220F oil at NCM as Mitch referenced. It drops down at idle, but more like 30psi when the oil is very hot. I spoke to Phil at Element tuning. On their 500hp cars they see about 85psi on the track. After my time at NCM and replacing the hose from the tank to the OEM pump, I am more convinced than ever that I had a collapsing suction tube that was clearly worsened by temperature. I am running -12AN throughout my oil system. I read somewhere that the oil pump is moving in excess of 10gpm at 4,000rpm. That's a lot of oil to suck through a 1/2" hose, even with gravity. I worked in the food industry for 34 years and saw some pretty spectacular (bad) things happen when we had gear pumps sucking viscous fluids.....

Rob, Thanks for the response. I'm running a generic -12 braided hose from Summit Racing. I do have a spiral spring in it to prevent collapsing. I wonder with that flow it is creating vacuum bubbles in the hose. Then my glitches are a result of the bubbles arriving at the pump.

Since max vacuum is -14.7 PSI. 14.7 PSI pushing oil from the tank to the pump may not be enough.

Gator, sorry for hijacking your thread, do you want me to take this elsewhere?
Bob

Sgt.Gator

08-01-2020, 12:22 PM

Gator, Thanks for your Response.
I need to get back out on the track get some more data.

Unfortunately, I don't have a dedicated data logger. I'm using the BTSSM phone app. To get oil temp and pressure I use the ECU analog inputs that originally went to the TGV sensors. I can move those two ECU inputs to a G sensor but I would lose the oil temp and pressure.
Bob

The AIM MXm is a great value/price/performance in a datalogger. I've used it twice now and am very impressed. No wash out in strong sunlight (LCD Display), just enough analog inputs, and we've figured out how to make it work with a JDM 2004 ECU. It's also small enough to fit anywhere but large enough to read on track while racing. I'm sure my tuner will be happy to help you out with one! (He's an AIM dealer now)The AIM folks were unsure if it could be made to work with the old JDM ecu but Arcflash figured it out.
What we are able to datalog and monitor on screen, most of the important ones are also alarmed on screen:
Oil Temp
Oil Pressure
Transmission Temp
Crankcase Pressure/Vacuum
RPM
ECT (Engine Coolant Temp)
Turbo Boost
Ignition Advance
Knock Correction
AFR
Throttle Position
Voltage

Also:
Internal Accelerometer Gs:
Long G
Lat G
Vertical G
Roll Rate
Pitch Rate
Yaw Rate

External GPS
Speed
Long G
Lat G
Slope
Altitude
And several more GPS parameters which I'm not sure are useful.
Amazingly the Internal accelerometer Gs match very closely to the GPS calculated Gs.

Installed in my 818. This is not the screen I use while racing, but it is one I have up when first testing an engine- transmission on the dyno and out on track: Engine Coolant Temp, Oil Temp, Transmission Temp. I need to add Oil Pressure as the fourth...

132798

See my next post regarding the value of the AIM this weekend at ORP...

Sgt.Gator

08-02-2020, 12:56 AM

Thursday night we worked till 2:00 AM to complete the 2017 USDM STI EJ257 swap into the 818., the goal being to get to ORP on Friday for 3 days of track testing before the ICSCC Race in Portland on Aug 15th. Arcflash spent two hours on the chassis dyno running thru 22 dyno pulls getting everything right. There were quite a few mods needed to get the USDM STI enine to work with the much older JDM EJ ECU, but in the end tit was running great and strong. Once the dyno tuning ws done we spent a bit more time burping the last of the air out and loaded up the car for the trip the track.
Because it was after 2:00 AM getting to sleep I was in no rush to get to the track 2.5 hours away by the 9:00AM start time. On my arrival at 10:30 Am I noticed the track was black flagged, never a good sign. It turns out I didn't miss any track time, a Ferrari on the second lap out at 9:00 AM had catastrophically blown his engine, as in connecting rods dragging on the tarmac. The resulting massive oil slick sent the car behind him off the track. They had been cleaning the mess for over an hour when I arrived.

I went out eager to get three good days of aero testing the wings in! But being a "new" engine I was carefully watching the gauges for the first session. I'm confidant that after all the dyno time there's nothing to worry about, but I've been thru this before.....First lap, everything is great. Engine running smooth and strong, although I'm not really pushing it at all. I think I hit a top speed of only 90 mph. Here's a AIM datalog of Lap 1 with the RPM, Oil Temp, Oil Pressure.
Looking good, typical first lap with steadily rising oil temp, oil pressure in a limited range, oil pressure following rpm.

https://8d8spg.by.files.1drv.com/y4mg8RtAH_Oyrw8V3SeVELfxv1p040h965ZMbqMVsifvsqOidC N5-E59xC55hQRthbFcONpC8VUZeQNzPH7FTGEZrCkIzm0Q9KZ58-XVfbX31N5uImJOGtQiKYQ2KN2nov7DweowQQoxuOZa_hCBdgXw G_kNy1sBSDpo_sZMf6rk2rDERcKU4nrI-a2bSxgoQY1Qmk170QQkstVsMxIvhFs_g?width=1024&height=507&cropmode=none

Second lap, I start to get on it a bit. Not watching the AIM dash as closely I am spending more time on the track avoiding other cars and going faster. Then near the end of the second lap I see the AIM has set off an Oil Temp Alarm. What! How can that be on the second lap???!?? I slow down a bit and start taking it easy for the third lap. Slowing a bit and staying out of WOT has always turned my oil temps around in the past with every race car I've driven. Not this time! Even running half throttle the oil temps keep right on climbing. 220, 230, 235, 240, 245 keep on coming, then 250 and I'm freaking out. All in the space of one lap at half throttle. I exit into the paddock totally bewildered.
I pull the AIM data and give it cursory review. It confirms that the oil temp hit 251 degrees. There's no obvious physical manifestation on the outside of the engine to explain this, or fix it.

How could we do 22 dyno runs at WOT and not see this problem? What the heck is going on? I'm thinking about letting it cool off then go back out for another try to see if this is just some sensor problem or temporary hiccup. But I decide to let it cool, then start it up and use my IR thermometer to compare my AIM data to my IR thermometer to see if the oil sensor is wacky. Unfortunately the Aim sensor and the handheld IR thermometer track right together from 150 on up for oil and radiator temps. In Sync. It's not a sensor issue. Have the scavenge lines collapsed? Is the Motul oil foaming?

At this point I remember my sig line below: "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement". Well I have lots of the mostly latter. I pack up and head for home.
On getting home the last thing I want to do is think about the car. But this morning first thing it's time to do a deep dive into the data-logging. Before looking at the data I'm reviewing what have we done different between these two engines?

1) We replaced the scavenge lines with custom BMRS AN lines rated for high vacuum.
2) We used Motul oil.
3) We made changes to the AVCS oil system to block it off because the JDM ECU can't do AVCS.

Remembering Lap 1 above, now check out Lap 2, particularly the change at the 6,000 feet mark:

https://7z8spg.by.files.1drv.com/y4mfcE7DxanuaUoCqoy776bb3yHHSIWmA8K1jM41VTXNQ9tg0K Al4NsaBUPAKJCuuuMDFv9t558cOgBQDPqaOCas0YyIWnFAiYDo woXUoQdnBDkJ4rYVxVApkDaWW5IjnrvhW3nXh6-cUUIphrMCKhrgWxK1BBn4k03rT5jdJ4zhniXNzhLd3Ij5uB3IG S4n_JaE3Z1RiLr976Wu9O2WtMSHA?width=1024&height=509&cropmode=none

Holy Mackerel! The Oil pressures go crazy and lower, the oil temp starts climbing fast!

And Lap 3, the oil temp just keeps going up. The oil pressure that went wacky in Lap 2 at 6,000 feet keeps going crazy:

https://8j8spg.by.files.1drv.com/y4mhDVXWtCVYKzt5uYmoWLcg3M9xgzeE1hahi2d12wfgIIxFyW N5k7Dou76rcsom3UZ_st_HnW0A_TFQ5-ggVw-yNunjygXr2eqzBkzgRMRmhZK6tNW__-IEHSgYwdebvhdG5QECTx73_k1NviE3axOGWeL-SWCZxe53MuA-FSeiYesHgO6IKJiXGAErrR7w31EG9kfSLCSw8c65uuxI0hyyA? width=1024&height=512&cropmode=none

The "event" at 6,000 feet of Lap two is certainly not the oil foaming and overheating, that would be much more gradual. It looks like an instant mechanical issue. So did the scavenge lines collapse? Well we also log crankcase pressures. If the scavenge lines collapsed there would be a major lack of vacuum in the crankcase. Here's the graph of all three laps crankcase vacuum. The vacuum does get weaker, but I think that is a function of the oil getting hotter. But there's no indication they collapsed at the 6,000 foot mark on Lap 2:

https://qt8spg.by.files.1drv.com/y4mYppiur5BhYZpJAv4iT8cmjTGPXyRWMj7MygJxdSzPnEAme5 Tum1Y5NGsXysUC9XpFQYh0JB5wd910ZDpLmcIhdE7xVODmFZNa cvAXmh9t9mUhLL27mOTFSgZ1eW7aHJ2nBsp4XbO46hOIh9toTr AVZLLUOgdggcVPKZ5FmBlVoFqqQOLri9RLU06mDhWdnS-gMM3fpjyDEVhYh2W7d-TyQ?width=1024&height=344&cropmode=none

So it's not the scavenge lines. What we are now assuming is the oil bypass valve inside the oil pump is stuck or sticking in the half closed/half open state. That would explain both the drop in oil pressures and the rise in oil temps in such an abrupt manner.

Now the engine comes out again (good thing we changed the top braces to easy remove ones) and pull the oil pump off. If the bypass is stuck I'll replace the pump with one built by a guy I met at PRI last year. One of his claims is a fix to the sticky bypass problem which is not just Subarus.

The datalog made this diagnosis much easier. If all you have is a temp gauge and oil pressure gauge most likely all you would know is your oil temps got hot. But being able to see the nature of the "event" being instantaneous and pulling other data made this much easier. Well, we'll see if it did.

Here's video of my favorite Subaru engine builder on You Tube and how he had this problem too:

https://youtu.be/UdZDDfnLXKg

Bob_n_Cincy

08-02-2020, 11:17 AM

Sgt.Gator

08-02-2020, 12:04 PM

Gator, This looks very similiar to the problem Chad was have years ago. Chad never found the definative solution because of shootgun fix.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?11129-Plavan-s-818R-Build-Thread&p=223547&viewfull=1#post223547

RobT thinks is was the Sump tank to OEM pump hose colapsing. I agee with him on that.
Bob

I forgot to mention we replaced the Tank to OEM pump hose with a Brown & Miller (BMRS) high vacuum racing hose too. I doubt it is that but it's possible it's defective too. It would be a lot cheaper/faster to replace that hose and see. Thanks.

If the oil pump bypass is stuck....when the engine is cold started the oil pressure should read low, maybe 45-50 psi, not the usual 85-90 psi of cold oil. Correct? I can't see where the oil temp when cold would "unstick" the bypass valve, then stick again when it gets hot. I suppose the cold metal valve cup could shrink enough to work normally, then when it gets hot it expands and sticks. But I've never heard of that happening before. Unfortunately that's a test I can't do right this second because I left the 818 at ORP and brought back my STI...

Rob T

08-03-2020, 06:53 AM

Gator: My last session before the rain at NCM a few weeks ago I was driving hard (for me). It was about 90F and humid. The oil temp was 220-240F at the end of the session, but I did not see any pressure issues (no logging, just glancing at gauge). I was also pushing 200F on the water temp. The session ended then and I got rained out the rest of the day, basically. I should be back on track in September at CMP and get a better look at it. I know for sure that the pressure issues are gone as a result of changing the suction hose from the tank. I am not sure where I will end up with oil temp. I do have a cooler in the back of the car ducted to the side scoops with two fans.

Sgt.Gator

08-03-2020, 10:31 AM

FFRSpec72

08-03-2020, 10:55 AM

Sgt.Gator

08-03-2020, 11:09 AM

Time for a Ford 2.3 eco-boost conversion !

LOL, Looks who's back on the 818 Boards! Tony where did your 818 go? Is it going to race in Conference?

Bob_n_Cincy

08-03-2020, 11:10 AM

I went back to ORP Sunday to get the car. When I fired it up it read the usual 85-90 psi "cold" oil pressure. A little bit of a rev to 3200 rpm sent it to 100 psi. So at least it's not stuck in 100% bypass with no oil pressure.

Then we took it out on track. Same exact behavior, on Lap 2 something changes, Oil Pressures go wacky and are trending lower, Oil Temps keep climbing. Here's the 3 laps, Oil Temp is lime green and Oil Pressure is brown:

https://qj8spg.by.files.1drv.com/y4m6IJ-xuSVUf03tBMVGPqPYIC0_MSbKujx09shg6XfA9pL7GNCdIdv0Q GaFPWzXVzXmMfxS5ly9lkEuAbtNuHMiSiPDwXPwDcwaVBfj2PL z320UuMIX-yrHlB5VkVNGRt95snAZjh65H0pYPhCzc0n6Rkm6KKUA7MEU62P sgzumQlvC7XAdn3-CPVjSPVXg9sBME7Zb1AGayWWU2USUcfGuQ?width=1024&height=130&cropmode=none

Gator, If the by-pass valve was stuck open, wouldn't the pressure be just steady low?

I think the erratic pressure might be the result of cavitation.

Read this: https://www.munciepower.com/company/blog_detail/hydraulic_pump_cavitation_what_is_it_and_how_can_y ou_prevent_it_#:~:text=The%20product%20of%20excess ive%20vacuum,bubbles%20then%20collapse%2C%20thus%2 0cavitation.

and this; http://nutterracingengines.com/racing_oil_pumps/about_dry_sump_oil_pumps.html

Sgt.Gator

08-03-2020, 11:49 AM

Gator, If the by-pass valve was stuck open, wouldn't the pressure be just steady low?

I think the erratic pressure might be the result of cavitation.

Read this: https://www.munciepower.com/company/blog_detail/hydraulic_pump_cavitation_what_is_it_and_how_can_y ou_prevent_it_#:~:text=The%20product%20of%20excess ive%20vacuum,bubbles%20then%20collapse%2C%20thus%2 0cavitation.

and this; http://nutterracingengines.com/racing_oil_pumps/about_dry_sump_oil_pumps.html

Hi Bob,
It could stick full closed, by which I mean there is no control of oil pressure. Whatever the pump is putting out is what the sensor sees.

It could stick full open which is what you see in the above video, meaning it's bypassing 100%, churning the oil in the pump, and not letting any or almost zero oil escape the pump, resulting in 0 oil pressure. This is also known for sure heat the heck out of the oil. There is a solution on the market that returns the bypassed oil to the sump pan instead of letting it churn inside the pump. But this requires a bunch of mods to install it.

It could stick halfway, which I *think* would result in cold pressure being ok, but as things warm up the oil is still being churned in the pump to some extant heating it up and also probably as you mention cavitiating it and foaming it. However I would think this would be a more gradual change in the oil pressures and oil temps, not an obvious "event" in a few seconds.

And I think the valve cup could be sticky...moving a bit back and forth but "stuck" in mostly bypass range.

Or it could have nothing to do with the valve cup!

If you are correct and it is cavitation, but the cavitation is not cased by a bad bypass valve, then I'm not sure where in the system it would be being created. It's not a new DS system other than new hoses. I guess we are going to have to pull the pump and examine it.

Sgt.Gator

08-04-2020, 10:16 AM

Bob_n_Cincy

08-06-2020, 01:49 PM

Bib,
One other quick thought about cavitation.....as your linked articles point out, and many other sources I've read mention (latest edition of the PRI magazine has an article on oil pumps, page 9, including cavitation), it is mostly caused by low inlet pressure. Well one of the benefits of our hybrid DS systems is the DS tank is located high enough that it provides positive head pressure to the inlet side of the pump. Unlike a regular Subaru or LS wet sump where the pump has to suck the oil up from the sump. So theoretically we should have less issues with cavitation than a oem wet sump system.
At least that's my internet genius at work!

I agree that you have a little advantage in having the oil level higher than the pump.
But look at it this way. Would oil flow out a 10 gal/min if you disconnected the hose from the dry-sump plate?
You do have 14.7 psi of air pressure pushing the oil. We should be OK as the nascar guys put the tank all the way in the back of the car.
Bob

Sgt.Gator

08-06-2020, 02:01 PM

I agree that you have a little advantage in having the oil level higher than the pump.
But look at it this way. Would oil flow out a 10 gal/min if you disconnected the hose from the dry-sump plate?
You do have 14.7 psi of air pressure pushing the oil. We should be OK as the nascar guys put the tank all the way in the back of the car.
Bob

In my STI I run with the tank in the trunk with a -12AN line back to the engine. It's no problem there either. And this one always worked fine up till this engine swap. We'll put on a new pump and see what happens!

Bob_n_Cincy

08-06-2020, 10:35 PM

In my STI I run with the tank in the trunk with a -12AN line back to the engine. It's no problem there either. And this one always worked fine up till this engine swap. We'll put on a new pump and see what happens!

Gator,
Are you running a belly pan that would hold in the heat under the engine?
Bob

Sgt.Gator

08-08-2020, 01:29 AM

Gator,
Are you running a belly pan that would hold in the heat under the engine?
Bob

The STI has a full flatbottom. The 818 has an open engine bottom.

Sgt.Gator

08-09-2020, 02:34 PM

More testing - Probably NOT the relief Valve:
We put the 818 on the dyno to see if we could replicate the problem before we make any changes. We did, it took a while to get the oil hot enough but at 220 dgress we had this:
133307

Now here's where it gets interesting: We opened the DS Tank and looked in while the sensors were showing the problem and engine was spinning about 4,000 RPM, and to our surprise the tank was basically empty! As soon as the throttle was closed within a couple of seconds the tank was full again!
This explains both the erratic oil pressure and the heat. In effect all the oil is inside the flat bottomed DS pan, churning around in the crankcase, getting hot as heck, while at the same time a mix of air-oil is being sucked into the return line to the oil pump and into the engine.

If the problem is the relief valve sticking or stuck once the oil gets hot, the opposite would occur, the pump would be bypassing inside the pump, drawing in less oil, and DS tank would be full.

Now we think it has to be one of two things:

1) The 11mm pump is moving more oil than the scavenge pump can keep up with. It's temp dependent because the oil has to warm up and thin out enough to flow fast thru the engine. The Event is abrupt because the oil slowly gets drawn down in the tank so everything looks fine until suddenly there's no more, and the drop off occurs. By then the oil is taking a beating and getting really hot and foamy in the engine.

2) The scavenge lines are collapsing or simply undersized. We doubt they are collapsing, they are brand new BMRS Racing lines, very high end. https://www.bmrs.net/products.html However we did drop down to their AN10 lines on the scavenge hoses. The internal diameter is the same as the previous -12 cheaper lines I was running, so we thought they would have the same capacity. Maybe not.

We know the 11mm pump puts out to much volume for a non-AVCS engine so we are changing that first to a 10mm. If that doesn't fix it we'll switch the scavenge lines to BMRS ProGold -12an, or possibly ProBlackDR -12an, which have a larger than standard -12 inner diameter. The ProBlack are like the XRP ProPlus + they have a .78" inner diameter.

Bob_n_Cincy

08-09-2020, 03:36 PM

Hobby Racer

08-09-2020, 04:01 PM

However we did drop down to their AN10 lines on the scavenge hoses. The internal diameter is the same as the previous -12 cheaper lines I was running, so we thought they would have the same capacity. Maybe not.

Great to see you are able to replicate the issue. From what you have explained my money is on the #1 as well.

Remember that -10 fittings will have smaller diameter internal passages than -12 fittings, even if your hose ID's are the same.

Sgt.Gator

08-09-2020, 05:09 PM

Great Information, Great that you cn duplicate on dyno.
I'm betting on #1. "The 11mm pump is moving more oil than the scavenge pump can keep up with"

I disagree with it being the 11mm pump fault. When the relief is active, the amount of going through the engine is controlled by pressure, viscosity, and clearances.

I think it ia a scavenge pump problem. I would try a smaller pulley on the pump first.
Bob

The scavenge pump is already spinning too fast. If anything it needs a larger pulley to slow it down. Right now it's spinning at more than 100% crank speed due to the size of our crank pulley. I have in the past used an undersized crank pulley, OBX is the only maker of them that I've ever found, but it's a solid pulley like all the tuner style pulleys on the market. I think I may even have one in inventory. But I prefer to have the Fluidamper pulley instead.

Edit: The Go Fast Bits crank pulley is significantly smaller diameter than the OEM and Fluidamper pulley. Nowhere can I find the exact size but this video shows it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHYljWb-Q-s

Every normal dry sump system you see out there spins the scavenge pump off a mandrel that is half the size of the crank pulley. And the former Cosworth system which was 2 scavenge pumps only feeding the tank, then used the oem pump ( or Cosworth ported oem pump) for internal pressure, used a special crank bolt and mandrel sticking out the front of the oem or aftermarket crank pulley to run the scavenge pumps at 1/2 speed.

133312

From the ARE Website Tech answers:

Q- What RPM should the pump run at?

A- A general rule is 50-60% of crank speed. This of course is also based on the max engine RPM that will be achieved. Dry sump pumps can start losing efficiency, and in fact begin cavitation at RPM above 4500-5200 PUMP RPM. Like a camshaft, dry sump pumps have an efficiency range that they should be run at to maintain it's best performance.
https://www.drysump.com/index.php/home-about-us-faq-are-in-action/frequently-asked-questions

And the system worked fine before on the 2.0L with a 10mm pump. So it is either the oil pump or the AN lines.

DanielsDM

08-11-2020, 02:15 PM

Gator, did you log crankcase pressure during these tests? Just curious if it changes when the scavenge pump is unable keep up.

Sgt.Gator

08-11-2020, 07:12 PM

Gator, did you log crankcase pressure during these tests? Just curious if it changes when the scavenge pump is unable keep up.

Yes I do. The crankcase pressure slowly trends to less vacuum tracking along with oil temp. There is no major drop off or event.

We changed to the 10mm pump and back on the dyno. Once the oil reached 185 we revved her up and while one person watched the oil level in the tank. It went down, we stopped the test before it completely emptied. So we confirmed it's not the pump.
It wasn't a waste, I'm trying out a new 10mm pump from a guy I met at PRI. Once we have good data and track experience on it I hope to be a vendor for him if it works as well as expected.

New 12an scavenge lines are ordered. We are also upping the pump >>cooler>>tank line to 16an. That's the size Cosworth used on their system.

Bob_n_Cincy

08-11-2020, 09:52 PM

I don't know if your interested in this. I did my Scavenge line with steel hydraulic tubing.

133467 133468 133469 133470

Sgt.Gator

08-12-2020, 01:48 AM

[QUOTE=Bob_n_Cincy;423431]I don't know if your interested in this. I did my Scavenge line with steel hydraulic tubing.]

That's a cool way to go. On my STI the plan this winter is to replace my cheapo AN lines with hard lines to and from the trunk mounted tank. I don't think we've ever considered doing the scavenge lines that way.
We've already ordered the BMRS lines. They custom build the lines to your specifications. It's interesting, every line you buy from them is serialized, if you need to replace it or change a size they already have your line build on file and they can replicate it overnight.
Thanks for the idea.

Bob_n_Cincy

08-18-2020, 11:36 PM

Sgt.Gator

08-20-2020, 11:28 AM

I talked to John at Aviaid Dry Sumps.
I told him how the tanks was droping level when the oil got hot.
His thought was that it might ne a windage problem keeping the oil off the vaccum pick-ups in the pan.
I don't know, but just want to pass this info along.
Bob

Interesting. I've thought about designing my own EJ pan and producing it. We actually created one in CAD that was very similar to the Cosworth pan. One change I would make now is to deepen the pan. Typically DS pans are very shallow because one of the benefits of a dry sump is dropping a V8, V6, I6, or I4 as low as possible to the ground. But a Subaru (and Porsche) is limited in how far you can go because of the exhaust headers coming out the bottom of the flat 4 engine. So there's a couple of inches there where the pan could be deeper without going lower than the exhaust headers.

I'd also put full -AN12 ORB ports on it, rather than some of the Subaru DS pans that are -10AN ports with -12 adapters.
The problem is the market is so tiny....that's why I never did it. Maybe I could 3D print one someday. And the future is the FA engines, which would require a different design.
Thanks!

Sgt.Gator

08-21-2020, 01:34 PM

The issue is fixed!
<At least on the dyno.> We installed new -12AN scavenge lines, the tank no longer drains out on the dyno. Next stop ORP for 3 days of testing Sept 4-5-6!

Frank818

08-21-2020, 06:49 PM

The issue is fixed!
<At least on the dyno.> We installed new -12AN scavenge lines, the tank no longer drains out on the dyno. Next stop ORP for 3 days of testing Sept 4-5-6!

YES!! Man I admire how quick and efficient you are at fixing weird issues.
Sep 4th is just around the corner! Can't wait to read your final approval on the fix.

Sgt.Gator

10-13-2020, 08:05 PM

I didn't realize that I never posted how September testing went. It was a fail. The oil ran hot and the pressure dropped off dramatically. The same problem as before. We thought we could replicate it on the dyno but what worked there didn't work at the track. If we drove at 80-90% it was fine, but when I pushed it to 100% effort it failed.
We (Joshua Murray at Arcflash and myself) decided the scavenge pump with two stages just wasn't keeping up with even the 10mm pump. So we worked with John at Aviaid to come up with a new solution. He designed a 3 stage scavenge only pump where the third stage isn't as wide as the two main stages. That makes it possible to fit it in the A/C spot in front of the intake manifold. We figured why not try putting the third stage to the heads instead of a 3rd sump port? So we experimented with it. The third stage has a -10AN line to a Y, and from the Y it has two -6AN lines, one to each cylinder head cam cover. Arcflash in Bend welded in -6AN fittings to the cam covers and setup the new scavenge pump. That was the only engine change made, but what a change it made.

Friday we went to ORP and ran the heck out of the car all day. What a difference having the heads scavenged made. Here's the summary of temps on my fastest lap of the day:

https://qjptbg.by.files.1drv.com/y4mjajo8xQwaXgAKDKwUjFrxgxFQMUkigmZ9w07PJowiRYgL9u 1HLDWVcHCuHoUHpYtDX1s8uE6YhqlJdpNJaf2__DkoR_hLGMPp YrkZD_tRMwfz1zwL5wXNrOv1CX5NxAYUjmVStuSLQATIMQBM0y nfkNnfO3NWnxLhyH20qYermU48uUSDWP_5BedCwExzt-0JRQRz361uotVDrLbWpch7A?width=862&height=288&cropmode=none

The full graph:

https://8jptbg.by.files.1drv.com/y4mvs27PJmePrrh5d1hBjcqpvc98SnxH9N_uRkpDdKQxFwt9Y6 H5i3tmPkuRZi0SDNF-8CsZbkEahk2feYyTKoi7-ZRqqtjoEekERsFj5d60oHalnGjwgtf2bhAOMZDLT6LVXD9pz5q EA_8hDcC_b98m-WJCQsfiIZdZf-Wyi4urg9yWQojkg0b1dZ2kfvCL31UajFaG0TToJ1hOwuD3PxG5 w?width=1024&height=483&cropmode=none

ECT is Engine Coolant Temp. Crankcase Pressure is in PSI, to convert that to Inches of Vacuum you multiply by 2 (approx).
My Engine Coolant never went over 185 degrees all day.
My Oil Temp hit one high of 205 F once, the rest of the day it was 197-199 F at most.
Oil Pressure was excellent, never going under 50 for the entire lap. Hot idle at the end of a session was still 19 psi.
Trans Temp is also solved for sure with the tail lowered, it maxed out 185.
And Crankcase Vacuums of 8" to 16". Wow. In all my dry sumped Subarus (all with 2 stage Aviaid pumps) I've never been able to keep that much vacuum at full boost!

Yippe Skippe!

Here's the -AN fittings in the cam covers:

https://8dptbg.by.files.1drv.com/y4msE6cDymFP1UVHKQwt-_qY_zz2kzMHXKo_r4Xkyl58xY1AOktrddWEhEyzTIbNsxD11kI 38StmgIyKhIYKxq9N-F5uMXe_vTqu2J1nuaYTXXpx2QzPlak2FLTTxSvbfudFTRBCz4i REexlmHXpaczlcpb3pDOh5I66LBMoKLi5RUdKCkWVlITWd31ZB 0N8Fk4ydgfX5srDsh8cpQXXG49KQ?width=864&height=655&cropmode=none..https://qtptbg.by.files.1drv.com/y4m24gCvmxMajGJvZahUP5wXHjtzZNu9bkovjQcRUG5WTSYZvJ zEavhG-3CuU9dIoEp4iLWITXz4HEV_S5H8PiAXlLqFIcgPmgAsPIwQLaV OGd09G5IQJbC8YkpykFzs-rmQpSefmkWEmHHVv_jaCk8p37Nx9ckVjGdMYlisPESs-Vn-hEi3L_oGVsd__nR-ky0PnO-uOJZlbMK4j_XDNU6Rw?width=744&height=720&cropmode=none

Over the winter we are going to make the same mod to my STI enduro racer for sure.

And on another note, we switched out the springs for 500F / 700R. That cured the tires being ground down by the body at high compression loads.

Next Up: This weekend is the annual Cascade Festival of Endurance. Josh and I will be driving my STI in the 2 and 4 hour races on Saturday.
The 818 is probably done for the season, we may try to squeeze in one more track day before the snows hit. It's already snowing in the passes.

Hobby Racer

10-14-2020, 08:29 AM

Trans Temp is also solved for sure with the tail lowered, it maxed out 185.

Those temps are great, do you still have a cooler?

And on another note, we switched out the springs for 500F / 700R. That cured the tires being ground down by the body at high compression loads.

That is the same spring rates I run and they seem to work very well, even at high speed / high downforce.

Glad to see you nailed the heat and pressure issues!

Sgt.Gator

10-14-2020, 09:32 AM

Hi Hobby,
Yes I copied your rates. It did raise the car 1" so we are looking at ways to have the same rates but lower it back down. We also have a bunch of other springs to experiment with.

Yes, we still have the same trans cooler.
Thanks

Hobby Racer

10-14-2020, 05:09 PM

Hi Hobby,
Yes I copied your rates. It did raise the car 1" so we are looking at ways to have the same rates but lower it back down.
Thanks

Are you out of adjustment on your coil-overs? I had to re-corner balance my car and lower the collars on the coil-overs when I went to the higher rates.

Sgt.Gator

10-15-2020, 09:48 AM

We put it on the Arcflash alignment rack and did quite bit of adjusting. The right front caster was off a lot. We will start concentrating on suspension and downforce next spring now that the engine and trans issues seem to be solved, they were taking up all our bandwidth.

Sgt.Gator

10-15-2020, 09:58 AM

NevaLift2Shift

10-15-2020, 11:40 AM

To clarify what I think is happening:
The heads being scavenged probably has less to do with the temps and pressures. The third scavenge section is the key. We could have plumbed it to the pan since there is already a port there, but figured as long as we are going to this effort we should scavenge the heads at the same time. We know the heads fill with oil so we wanted to clear them out too.
The issue is that 2 scavenge pumps can't move as much oil as the OEM pump moves at high rpm. So when you are really pushing the car hard the DS Tank drains out because the oem pump is using the oil faster than the scavenge can suck it up and return it to the tank. For the system to work properly the scavenge pump max volume must exceed the oem pump volume. That's one reason why the 10mm oem pump is a partial cure, it pumps less volume than the 11 or 12 mm pumps.
One of the symptoms you will see is that suddenly the oil pressure that was fine goes all whacky. On a long straight you wind out to high rpm, the DS tank is emptying out, the oem pump has no oil for a second, the oil pressure drops, you brake for a corner, the engine rpm drops, the scavenge is able to partially refill the tank, oil pressure goes back up. But if it only refills for a second then in the high G corner the little bit of oil in the tank pushes up the sides and oil pressure drops again. You exit the corner and for a few seconds the scavenge exceeds the oem pump because the rpms are down, and the oil pressure shoots back up.
Meanwhile the engine is chock full of ALL your oil! Every drop from your DS tank is inside the engine, in the block, the heads. There it is being beaten by rotating assemblies and the oil temp shoots up.
If you have a data logger it's easier to see it in the graphs. Watching gauges is hard to do to realize what is happening.

Sgt.,

I'm a complete newb at dry sumps, so excuse the dumb question. I'm running the Element tuning dry sump, 2 stage scavenge, like yours. Could you change the pulley size on the DS pump to get a little overdrive on the pump or is that going to cause other issues?

Sgt.Gator

10-15-2020, 12:08 PM

Sgt.,

I'm a complete newb at dry sumps, so excuse the dumb question. I'm running the Element tuning dry sump, 2 stage scavenge, like yours. Could you change the pulley size on the DS pump to get a little overdrive on the pump or is that going to cause other issues?

That's a valid question and one of the first things we tried years ago, and even tried again as a last ditch effort in September!
We've used 3 different pulley sizes, up to 5.5" (to slow it down). Over in the R forum on the dry sump thread we detailed that and in this thread too. Driving it faster won't help because it's already going faster than any "normal" dry sump scavenge. DS pumps usually operate at 1/2 or less crank speed. The Element/Aviaid is running above crank speed and in the range of cavitation. However John at Aviaid says the scavenge side can run at higher rpms than the usual DS system that is both scavenge and engine oil pressure.
So he and I disagree on that. All I know is we tried it and it didn't work for us. I haven't talked to him yet on the cost to modify my other Aviaid 2 stage pumps. It shouldn't be too bad. I've rebuilt mine before, adding a third section and a new center gear set (longer) should be affordable. The rebuild pdf is on his website.

Hobby Racer

10-15-2020, 12:08 PM

NevaLift2Shift

10-15-2020, 02:12 PM

The problem with that is you are now driving the scavenge pump stages too fast and they can cavitate. Ideally you want to drive the dry sump pumps at 1/2 crank speed. We rarely get to do things ideally, but driving the pump faster is moving in the wrong direction. Adding an additional stage is the right way to go.

Just my $0.02 :D

Thanks for both of the replies, glad ya'll are doing some of the R&D for the rest of us. I appreciate all of the information that is shared.

Sgt.Gator

11-02-2020, 06:20 PM

We ran the Cascade Enduro again this year in the STI. We took 3rd place in the 4 Hour enduro. We could have done better but we had the same oil overheating issues in the 2 stage STI as we had in the 818. Pretty much identical.
We are converting the STI to a 3 stage scavenge. John is sending us kits to mod two pumps (one on the STI now, one on a spare pump).
There is a good chance we'll be at the last track days of the season at Oregon Raceway Park this weekend. I'm really looking forward to running the 818R with hopefully the trans and engine issues solved so we can do some decent aero testing on the wing setups! Although a high of 42 degrees on Sunday is going to be some chilly driving in an 818R and getting heat in the tires will be difficult.

Sgt.Gator

11-07-2020, 02:20 PM

My wife and I cruised the length of Nevada and back last week. We spent a couple of days in Pahrump checking the latest at Spring Mountain Motor Resort. I went thru the Ron Fellows driving school there in 2015 and wanted see what's changed. All I can say is wow, what a great facility! And they are making it better all the time. The track is already the longest and most versatile in North America at 6.1 miles and 50+ configurations. They can run two events at the same time, such as the Ron Fellows Corvette school on one 2.5 mile course and members' club day on a 3.0 mile course.
With the new addition of acreage they are building the longest road race course in the world, over 16 miles long.
We are seriously considering joining the club. If anyone here is already a member please PM me, I'd love to hear your feedback!

Bicyclops

02-10-2021, 12:24 PM

To clarify what I think is happening:
The heads being scavenged probably has less to do with the temps and pressures. The third scavenge section is the key. We could have plumbed it to the pan since there is already a port there, but figured as long as we are going to this effort we should scavenge the heads at the same time. We know the heads fill with oil so we wanted to clear them out too.
The issue is that 2 scavenge pumps can't move as much oil as the OEM pump moves at high rpm. So when you are really pushing the car hard the DS Tank drains out because the oem pump is using the oil faster than the scavenge can suck it up and return it to the tank. For the system to work properly the scavenge pump max volume must exceed the oem pump volume. That's one reason why the 10mm oem pump is a partial cure, it pumps less volume than the 11 or 12 mm pumps.
One of the symptoms you will see is that suddenly the oil pressure that was fine goes all whacky. On a long straight you wind out to high rpm, the DS tank is emptying out, the oem pump has no oil for a second, the oil pressure drops, you brake for a corner, the engine rpm drops, the scavenge is able to partially refill the tank, oil pressure goes back up. But if it only refills for a second then in the high G corner the little bit of oil in the tank pushes up the sides and oil pressure drops again. You exit the corner and for a few seconds the scavenge exceeds the oem pump because the rpms are down, and the oil pressure shoots back up.
Meanwhile the engine is chock full of ALL your oil! Every drop from your DS tank is inside the engine, in the block, the heads. There it is being beaten by rotating assemblies and the oil temp shoots up.
If you have a data logger it's easier to see it in the graphs. Watching gauges is hard to do to realize what is happening.

I teach exactly this at an A&P mechanic school in Lubrication. The certification requirements for a dry sump aircraft engine mandate twice as much scavenge pump capacity as pressure pump. One reason is that heated oil expands so there's more of it to pump. Another is that the used oil is foamy and isn't as easy to gather and pump. One of the teaching aids I use is a sump from an R3350, that's right - a thirty three hundred and fifty cubic inch dry sump engine. The pressure pump gears and scavenge gears are on the same shafts in separate chambers. The scavenge pump gears are twice as long, about 8" or so.

I just got a quote from John on a 3 stage system for the 2.14L stroker that I'm building for my S. If you compare it to a Killer Bee or IAG oil pan with all the fixin's and a decent catch can setup, the difference is about $1700. Makes it an easier decision, especially if you compare that to the cost of a lunched engine.

Ed Holyoke

Sgt.Gator

02-10-2021, 01:57 PM

Thanks Bicyclops.

Here's the versions we have in both the 818R and STI. The installed pic is in the STI. Note the pressure exit is on the side, not the bottom:

https://by3302files.storage.live.com/y4myhOw-rVdcEjeBz_ggW2YlyWzlzfKx_nT9UN6gsJQr8Pn04Hah9Wuxwn gdPbfrLMm5mq4tZDkCQtqhTZKkondCkslzZ9jVepHdVH7dJ2Ys zW1OKrKwUxJq6O_c5PgdzGTQdysdRPa2NREAJP57WGZRVSqETn 9APWu6uzQvYi_2bO-w9vlg5RaMkKOC89RFMwx?width=1024&height=768&cropmode=none..https://by3302files.storage.live.com/y4mfkISMOFcStuhBYpSZn47XR4dg5EZo4gBoXyUw3C8-HBjkMvgQM-1m3sV1pH59EEhfV3m8LNA3ofYg3LM11LliO8cBQscAZBtLi1he 3zfAloryLFLRmkAyUsuA09CjHcTF6Wu_0ArsOf-nvr0mykIM5imc47lTUUhRH9cPFbvG05wgGBvoZrJmn3WekQw76 cK?width=1024&height=768&cropmode=none

Sgt.Gator

04-05-2021, 01:05 AM

We spent Easter Sunday at Oregon Raceway Park running the 818R. It ran great other than a minor gas leak around the fuel sending unit when the tank is overfilled.
5 sessions. The first was with no wings, no engine covers, just to see if anything had sprung a leak or come loose over the winter. Then I did 4 more sessions testing wing configurations.
It was a cool day, in the 50s and 60s, and very windy in the afternoon which made the aero testing not very valid. But I was sure pleased with the engine/tranny data:

Coolant Temps under 190 all day, mostly in the 170-180 range.
Oil temps 190 to 196
Oil Pressures rock solid thru all the high G turns tracking with RPMs, from 55 psi to 65 psi.
Trans temps averaged 145. Never went over 155.
Crankcase Vacuum was excellent, its stayed in the -8psi to -3.5 psi the whole time. It never went positive.

It's so nice to track all day with solid temps and pressures!

I hooked up my new Garmin Catalyst, along with my AIM data and Racelogic Video HD2 Vbox. Up until now I've considered the Video Vbox to be the best driver improvement tool but I think the Garmin has changed my mind. There's nothing quite like having the little Garmin lady's voice in you ear, "At next right turn brake later"; "At next left turn apex earlier"; "At next right turn brake softer".....and so forth. She seems to speak to you on no more than three places on the track on any one lap so she's not overloading you on instructions. And she even gives compliments when you follow her instructions!
And the post session review process is so much less complicated than AIM and Vbox.
It's miles better than an AIM Solo. It doesn't have al the capabilities of the Vbox, but the Vbox doesn't talk to you while your cooking around the track either. The Vbox has a predictive lap timer, and so does the Catalyst, but having the voice is incredible.

It has an internal speaker and hooks up to Bluetooth thru your car's speaker system too, but in a race car there's no way to hear the internal speaker. So I bought a set of Bluetooth earbuds. They are uncomfortable under the helmet at first until the helmet liner compresses around them. but then the first time she says "Carry more speed thru the corner" she has you hooked.

I haven't figured out how to download the data or save the video. Still working on that. Garmin wants you to save it in the their cloud account.....

Next up is Test & Tune on Friday April 30 at Portland International, then racing on Saturday and possibly Sunday too.

Rob T

04-05-2021, 05:58 AM

Great News Gator. You got similar temps, pressures, etc. to what I got with the extra stage on the dry sump. You are 100% correct about the great feeling of not worrying about oil pressures or temps....My next outing is also scheduled for April 30. I am so thankful that you discovered this solution to the dry sump issues.

Sgt.Gator

04-07-2021, 12:42 PM

Scargo and White Zombie asked a couple of questions over on my NASIOC thread that I thought would be useful here too:

Curious to see/hear the Garmin video overlay experience if and when you get around to it.

I've been looking for a more seamless video/data overlay than my iPhone/Harry's Laptimer/GoPro. It worked awesome for a few seasons, but now I'm getting all kinds of frustrating connection and data overlay issues.

Good luck on sorting the car issues out soon!

Great info. I have my Aim EVO4S and GoPro but that's it. What you have sounds interesting. What G's do you sustain? I don't like my data going to a cloud that I have to pay additional for.
Thanks and keep up the info and feedback!

The Video/Data integration is outstanding if you are using the Review function on the Garmin device. The AI software shows you specific places on the track where it suggests you can improve. Awesome!

I looked further into downloading the video and data to post on YouTube and have on my laptop at the track and desktop at home. It's Awful! There is no explanation in the Owners Manual on how to do it, but I eventually found one on the Support website under the FAQs. It's possible to download the video as MPEG 4 files, but the data doesn't come with it. It's just raw track video with no data overlay. And the process is very buggy, it failed several times.

There is a second micro SD card slot on the side of the Garmin where if you put in a card it will hold the video (they say). That would make it a lot easier to load the files in a PC/Laptop. I've loaded a card but not tested it. But it still won't have the data.
Garmin spent all their engineering resources on the AI in this device for this first version. I expect updated software will make the video/data export a lot better eventually.

The Garmin cloud account is not for video/data. It's a BS sharing web platform.

Scargo, the 818R on 200 treadwear street Toyo Proxes R1R tires was consistently generating 1.4 to 1.6 Gs lateral and 1.15 to 1.17 braking. I'm sure I can do little better on the late braking Gs, I have yet to lock them up front or rear. I'm pretty happy with the lateral Gs on the 200 TW tires.

Sgt.Gator

04-28-2021, 12:00 PM

Prepping for the 1 hour Mini Enduro at Portland International Raceway on Saturday. We're taking the 818R and will be in the NWMECS P1 class. With R comps we'd be in P0, but we're trying out Toyo R1Rs 200TW tires which let's us drop down one class. There's several Spec E46 cars registered in P1 so it should be fun!

147061

DSR-3

04-28-2021, 04:10 PM

Awesome! You must be pumped.
Wishing you the best of luck and success!

Sgt.Gator

04-29-2021, 12:47 PM

Delays...Delays....The gas tank leak was a failed main gasket on the Boyd Tank. It literally was falling apart. So we ordered a new gasket a couple of weeks ago. FedEx somehow got it stuck for 7 days at our regional facility. So we ordered another one for FedEx overnight delivery. Overnight ended up being two days. And of course it was the wrong size!
So now we have ordered Viton gasket sheets from McMaster and will make our own custom gasket. Doing the Test & Tune on Friday is out. Saturday, no practice laps. My first full lap will be a "pressure" qualifying lap for the enduro. One lap determines starting order. Then on to the race....

If the car is competitive in P1 I will drop the $$$ for a custom 18 gallon Fuel Safe cell. I hate having the fuel fill next to my head during enduro pit stops anyway, the fuel cell will move it to the passenger side. I have visions like this one right next to and below me...

https://youtu.be/TJtnExnV-yo

Sgt.Gator

04-30-2021, 11:21 AM

Gas Tank leaks fixed, it was both the main gasket and the electrical connector gaskets...final check over discovered the right rear hub was going bad..replaced, then the ignition switch came apart. New one of those going in. And finally I switched out my tow truck snow tires for highway tires and two studs snapped off, one on the front and one on the rear. It's not the first time it's happened, the lugs must be getting metal fatigue.
There's always something...

blomb11

04-30-2021, 04:53 PM

Dang sounds like a rough couple days, but glad to hear it’s all ready to go now. Good luck!

Sgt.Gator

05-03-2021, 01:52 AM

The Mini Enduro at PIR was great. The car ran well with just a minor boost spike issue that I'm sure can be tuned out. The 818R showed it has promise in the P1 class, running about 1.5 to 2 seconds per lap behind the class leader. The most important thing was the data image, if you race a Subaru powered car you know how sweet it is to have these numbers on the fastest lap, 17 laps into the race. Now that the critical temps and pressures are solid we can get on to tuning the suspension, tires, and most important, the nut behind the wheel!
Thanks to our sponsors and partners at Subaru of Bend and Arcflash.

147229147230147231

Sgt.Gator

05-05-2021, 10:13 AM

A couple of track notes:
When we fixed the fuel tank gasket leak I didn't notice the driver seat was put back one hole higher on the back base. As soon as I sat in the car at the track I knew it ddn't feel right but figured I could drive it ok, it's a pain to get down in there and change it. So I raced with it up on notch. Well that almost came back to bite...the Race Stewards met me at my paddock space to tell me my helmet was seen by the corner workers about 1/4" higher than my roll bar. They almost black flagged my race! But the stewards wisely allowed me to finish the race.
Do your broomstick tests! You may get by with your helmet above the roll bar /broomstick line at AutoCross and HPDE, but in a sanctioned race the corner workers are watching.

Post race go over: My front brake pads were worn to the metal on one pad, each side, due to heavy taper on the bottom edges. I'll have to remember to swap pads around every few sessions, I could have gotten 50% more wear out of them. Hawk DTC 50s.
The front brake dust boots are melted away, a right of passage.... (Even with front brake ducts). If you haven't melted your piston dust boots, you aren't really braking.

I was expecting that being a rear weight biased mid engine car the rear brake pads would show some wear, but almost none. I think a brake bias adjuster is in my future.

The Boyd tank is too small for racing, the FF fill is too small and on the wrong side for safe refueling. To keep racing we are definitely going to need a 18-20 gallon fuel cell with fill on the passenger side. Fuel Safe is going to do it for us. Both Fuel Safe and Pyrotect are local here in Bend/Redmond. The guys at Fuel Safe want to build a solution that fits behind the driver for all 818Rs. More on the design soon.

Sgt.Gator

05-05-2021, 10:40 AM

One more track note. I love the Garmin Catalyst. The little Garmin lady's voice..."next right turn brake later". "Good Job!". Amazing.

Except at the re-fuel we took the rear wing off to see how it effected my lap times. This race is a non-chicane race at PIR, which means a very long front straight at WOT. Would the higher top speed make it worth it?

It only took a few laps to say naught. At the end of the straight the braking was not nearly as solid, drastically reducing my braking confidence. So I started braking sooner and lighter. That meant each lap with no wing the Garmin Lady kept saying "Next Right Brake Later", "Brake Harder".

After I spun out in another corner I pitted again and put the wing back on.

Taking the wing off resulted in quicker acceleration down the straight 1-3mph faster, but ultimately with the wing and without the wing I hit the same top speed before the brake zone. The bad aero of the roll cage was limiting the ultimate top speed, the added drag of the wing didn't matter. My fastest laps were with the wing installed.

mikeb75

05-05-2021, 10:51 AM

That's super cool that you've used the Garmin Catalyst to get real time confirmation of your testing on track.

At least for now I'm relieved that we're safe from having AI's driving our race cars for us (look up the last test... er spectacular failure) and just giving us performance tips (guess a Garmin is cheaper than hiring a professional race car driver for a ride along).

Hobby Racer

05-05-2021, 12:30 PM

The Boyd tank is too small for racing, the FF fill is too small and on the wrong side for safe refueling. To keep racing we are definitely going to need a 18-20 gallon fuel cell with fill on the passenger side. Fuel Safe is going to do it for us. Both Fuel Safe and Pyrotect are local here in Bend/Redmond. The guys at Fuel Safe want to build a solution that fits behind the driver for all 818Rs. More on the design soon.

Interested in that! Do keep us informed.

Taking the wing off resulted in quicker acceleration down the straight 1-3mph faster, but ultimately with the wing and without the wing I hit the same top speed before the brake zone. The bad aero of the roll cage was limiting the ultimate top speed, the added drag of the wing didn't matter. My fastest laps were with the wing installed.

I love these types of posts. Great information for the 818R crowd. Kept it coming.

J R Jones

05-05-2021, 12:32 PM

With no knowledge of rules:
If the cage aero is that influential, would the car be cleaner with a windshield?
Would the wing be more effective on/above the roll bar? Or set back from there?
I assume you run Wilwood brakes, same F & R or staggered? Our (heavier) EVO burned off the boots and blackened the paint. Rotors did not make a season.
Proportioning is critical. If you choose to not "skid balance" you could stick-on thermal tell-tails to find out the difference in working heat. Of course ducting is influential.
jim

Santiago

05-05-2021, 12:49 PM

I'm in blue:

If the cage aero is that influential, would the car be cleaner with a windshield?
Much depends on the shape and rake of the windshield. Full canopy? Most likely. Just a windscreen? Maybe... but the challenge with the 818R is that the main roll-over tube is so wide and squared off (it's meant to protect two occupants). That makes a proper tear-drop canopy difficult and a windscreen's benefit suspect. I'll be fairing my tube, opting to clean the profile rather than work around the detrimental effects of a bad profile.

Would the wing be more effective on/above the roll bar? Or set back from there?
Between the two, I'd favor above rather than back (at least for purposes of getting it in clean air). The influence of the tube is going to be felt further back than you might expect. It may be easier to get the wing above the tube - but I'm not sure how much higher you would need the wing's belly above the top of the tube.

J R Jones

05-05-2021, 02:22 PM

Santiago, A passenger with a strut and yarn tell-tails might indicate the layers of unstable and stable air.

The further forward the wing, the less downforce on the rear axle, and the less lift in front.
The higher the wing, the drag lifts the front. Hard to predict the magnitude. Compromises.

The benefit of a windscreen might be realized without going full height. A low, wide forward deflector wrapped over on top might loft the airstream for some improvement. The air stays attached at or less than seven degrees.

We ran a Sorrell 50's vintage front engine (open) Can Am car. The pontoon fenders directed air at the driver and got under a full face helmet. Chin strap was almost decapitating at/over 100MPH. A small screen made it tolerable.
A winner-lap in a windshiedless Sunbeam Tiger broke my girlfriend's glasses when I shouted "Hold my flag and watch this schmidt".
jim

Sgt.Gator

05-05-2021, 03:02 PM

I agree with Santiago.
Jim, there's a FF aero testing post on the 818R. Mounting the wing on the roll bar resulted in the driver's helmet trying to be sucked off his head!
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?19100-New-818-Configurations-Windtunnel-Tested

Quote: "On another car, a modified challenge car, we once made an airfoil around the cage for a track test. The goal in that case was to produce downforce from a part of the car where we already had to have the drag penalty. The result was a car that was undrivable, not from a handling standpoint but because the low pressure under the airfoil was trying to pull the drivers helmet off."

Earlier in the thread you will see where I am testing having a wing mounted on my front roll bar. I didn't try it at PIR Non Chicane because I thought the drag would be too much for the high speed front straight. See Post 241.
So far having it on the front hoop has not been a problem with helmet buffeting.

Brakes are the FF optional 4 Piston, 12” Front / 4 Piston, 12.18” Rear. For racing the 6 piston might be better, except that would eliminate using a 15" front wheel, which I am considering. It's hard finding 15" 5 x 100 wheels in anything wider than 7".

And for the newer R builders who may not be familiar with Dave Smith's own 818R testing:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?24084-FFR-s-own-818R

My car is evolving closer and closer to his....

J R Jones

05-05-2021, 09:19 PM

Sgt. Thank you, I read the (2015) wind tunnel thread. I have done wind tunnel development on street and racing motorcycles and a lot of hydrodynamic development.

There are details to note. I think the 818R they tested did not have a full-box cage as you do. Like your Miata photo, lots to shield, and more turbulence in the cockpit.
The improved airflow on the Radical is partly to do with the windscreen and small cockpit.
I think the wing on top of the 818 roll bar has too much baggage and rule issues.
A wing has low pressure on top and high pressure underneath, not what I expect to suck a helmet off.
They put a symmetrical airfoil shape on the roll bar which creates low pressure top and bottom, therefore it sucked.
That Radical has a very nice windscreen, nice sweep back and a lip spoiler on the rear edge. (Gurney lip?)
Daves 818R appears to have a wider wing on back with outer ends operating in clean air beyond the body width.
It is encouraging to see that development effort from FFR. Wind tunnels ain't cheap.
Nascar teams scan cars and make scale models to do aero development on rolling road wind tunnels. I have been to Penske's in Mooresville.
They develop the model then scale it to make full size cars. Saves money and time.
I did race bikes in Wichita aircraft model tunnel at 100+mph , and street bikes at Modine at 120MPH and up to 100 degrees F.

Seems that before you can develope the wing, someone has to get a handle on the turbulence ahead of it.
Anyone try a whale tail like a 917 30 Porsche? Center steering and a narrow cockpit......
jim

J R Jones

05-06-2021, 10:07 AM

Sgt, Opps, I was "testing" in the wind tunnels, not racing. Up too late methinks.
The issues here are formidable. Obviously the turbulence presents consequences for cooling as well, like John's H6 818R intercooler. I regard cooling as a priority.
If the cockpit turbulence has to be accepted, then (cooling) must find a more suitable environment, like the sides or front. Maybe the intercooler is what I saw in front of the radiator on Bob in Cincy's car.
Porsche uses front mounted coolers and radiators on 911 race cars. Porsche works hard on issues like that.

Brainstorming:
Your headlight apertures could be cooling air ports.
I developed a ram air (engine) intake for a racing motorcycle that netted 7hp at 100MPH. (+6%) The intake was a port on the faring at the base of the windscreen where high pressure lived. The port/plenum had two hoses to the airbox to balance swirl in the airbox.
In a similar manner can you mount ducts in or under your windscreen, through the cockpit to your intercooler?

In the back of my mind the P51 Mustang is always idling with that marvelous cooling system on the bottom of the fuselage. That scoop/duct worked so well the coolant temperature was regulated with an articulated "trap door" exit.

Santiago

05-06-2021, 12:40 PM

Must have been late Jim. ;)

You wrote:

A wing has low pressure on top and high pressure underneath...

This is true - when mounted conventionally on aircraft. For those new to aero (who might read this), remember that in motorsports we invert the airfoil because we want the opposite of what the fly-boys want. They would say we run our wings "upside down", because they want to generate lift (or bad things tend to happen). We want downforce (to make good things happen): low static pressure on bottom, high pressure on top.

Best,
-j

J R Jones

05-06-2021, 01:16 PM

Santiago, absolutely correct.
You caused me to realize I regard auto-wings as downforce (through drag) rather than upside down lift devices. Given the auto-wing cross section, I wonder how much negative pressure they develop?
I watched F1 Portugal at my son's apartment and was impressed with Hamilton's charge through traffic and the articulated wing going flat for high speed passing. Dynamic drag/downforce control. I do not know what that wing cross section is or it it goes to lift in the flat orientation; not likely.
jim

Sgt.Gator

05-06-2021, 02:34 PM

Factory Five 818R, ICSCC NWMECS Mini Enduro at Portland International Raceway. No Chicane. Gator driving. Subaru 2.5L, 5 Speed Trans.
Tuned for NWMECS P1, 226HP, 200TW Toyo R1R tires.

https://youtu.be/Bv-Qzb17_Yw

Sgt.Gator

05-07-2021, 03:07 PM

Interested in that! Do keep us informed. I love these types of posts. Great information for the 818R crowd. Kept it coming.

Green outline is with the rear wing, blue outline is without a rear wing, same spot, just as I start braking for the blue one brake zone. I had to start braking a lot earlier with the blue one because the braking was not as stable and I don't have the guts to find out just how much more unstable! The green lap was faster despite being slower on the straight.

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4m5uH4rCQKzVsxa1xHyfNuKxgcjuYRZE9RWRTsRkI7a9Z_wr-qgJtc2F7qXu4EJX3B4aSIdDZ5gve31yFsHYzrI1LeH8H6Tj0ir _JLBYXmKCVeewslMQrsTO35aKKUhjslyjeT4my39ulErLcKBzS fVzRw2bpgmaNZwrjfsQzoFi-XQ30ALCc9OXuQJEeKlewx?width=1024&height=318&cropmode=none

Bicyclops

05-07-2021, 11:48 PM

Must have been late Jim. ;)

You wrote:

This is true - when mounted conventionally on aircraft. For those new to aero (who might read this), remember that in motorsports we invert the airfoil because we want the opposite of what the fly-boys want. They would say we run our wings "upside down", because they want to generate lift (or bad things tend to happen). We want downforce (to make good things happen): low static pressure on bottom, high pressure on top.

Best,
-j

Wings, or airfoils, develop lift in two ways. The one they teach most is Bernoulli's principle - that an accelerated gas has lower pressure. The idea is that when the air splits at the leading edge, the air on the convex side has to go further than the air on the concave side and is accelerated. The other way a wing makes lift is the angle of incidence. When an airfoil is mounted with its chord line not parallel to the fuselage, (or car) the air impacts at an angle to the chord line. We call the difference angle of attack. The impact of the air striking one surface of the wing helps promote the acceleration of the air over the other side and the impact of the air also tends to push the airfoil directly, creating impact lift.

On a conventional airplane, the wing provides lift and the horizontal stabilizer produces down force. A wing on the back of a car is just like the horiz. stab. on a airplane, producing down force. The angle of incidence will be slightly nose down on the wing to do this.

As Gator pointed out, the wing causes drag. There is parasitic drag of having something exposed to the airflow and there is also induced drag - the drag caused by the process of creating lift. Parasitic drag on an airplane is by far the greater of the two, and I would think the same holds true with cars. Most of the drag caused by adding a wing to a car would be of the induced variety except, potentially, the mounts. Round tubing is nearly as draggy as square stock.

Ed Holyoke

J R Jones

05-08-2021, 11:37 AM

Ed, Yes your comments are correct. The other aspect Gator touches on is the wing efficiency lost to turbulence from the structure ahead of it, primarily the cage. Two challenges, getting undisturbed air to the downforce device and aft cooling devices.
Indeed aircraft wing turbulence influenced the high tail of F101 and F104 fighter jets. I spent four years with the F106 which had no defined tail as it is a delta wing. That required brute force and lots of pitch angle for take-off and landing. Indeed landing skill was remarkable with the nose high, it was hard to see the tarmac. To your parasitic drag comment, the F106 addressed that with consistent cross section. The fuselage was an hour glass or Coke bottle shape. The reduced fuselage cross section corresponded with the wing cross section. Worked good enough for 1525MPH. Just integrate the wing and body? No easy task. Maybe rising ramp surfaces on the quarter panels, somewhat beyond the width of the cage.
One other point of interest. Flying supersonic the F106 intakes would ingest more air than the engine could handle, and the intakes closed-off with vari-ramp devices.

Sgt.Gator

05-10-2021, 01:47 PM

If you have the optional 4 pot 12" Wilwood brakes see this post I just made in the Brakes forum:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?39657-Wilwood-12-quot-Brake-Part-Numbers&p=455359#post455359

Rob T

05-11-2021, 05:42 AM

Thanks for this Gator. I know I have the 16mm pad thickness on my fronts and the 12's on the back. The tech at Porterfield suggested a strategy where I could run 4 or so mm off the front pads and move them to the back...put new ones on the front. I'm not sure what you think of the idea, and I have not done it yet, instead, replacing all pads together.

Sgt.Gator

05-11-2021, 11:36 AM

Sgt.Gator

05-23-2021, 01:41 PM

I've spent the last week going thru my rear suspension trying to cure a mid corner mid speed tendency to oversteer out of nowhere into a spin. I'll go into more details later on what I've found, but for now I have one quick question:

How much rear droop are the R track cars using? I measured mine, it's only 1/4".

Google was not my friend here, if you Google race car droop you will encounter endless discussions about the pros and cons of droop limiting, and exactly opposite opinions of how much droop and whether to have any droop is better. And much of the info is on dirt cars and late model stock cars which doesn't really apply to my road race car going over a apex curbs and negative camber corners. There are also lots of discussions in open wheel formula car boards but there the arguments for and against are like asking what's the best oil for my engine!

So please, I don't want to set off a long winded theory of suspension droop discussion in this thread, I'd just like to know what the experienced R car builders are running.

Thanks!

Hobby Racer

05-23-2021, 05:46 PM

Not sure if this is what your asking. I run +1/4" in the rear so that the car is higher in the rear than the front. This is the amount of rake that Jim @ FFR recommended to me and its what they run on the 818R car that ran 1:59's at VIR for the UTCC.

I have no mid corner oversteer unless I induce it with my right foot ;)

jforand

05-23-2021, 08:57 PM

DSR-3

05-23-2021, 09:05 PM

I run +1/4" in the rear so that the car is higher in the rear than the front.
That would be rake. I believe he's referring to extension of the shock/wheel from static ride height.

Hobby Racer

05-23-2021, 10:00 PM

That would be rake. I believe he's referring to extension of the shock/wheel from static ride height.

That makes more sense. , I've never actually checked that but to have only 1/4" you must be running some very stiff rear springs!

Sgt.Gator

05-24-2021, 10:06 AM

Gator, when you say “droop” are you referring to how much downward travel the wheel has (suspension extension) from the normal ride height? I have not had mine on the track yet, but I have it set right now so that the car settles probably 2 inches once the wheels touch down coming off the jack. With only 1/4” I would think this is going to cause handling issue as the car rolls and weight shifts in corners. I can even envision issues if you had some intense twisting topography in sections of the track like the right hand drop at Laguna Seca for instance. The wheel needs to be able to extend to keep the tire firmly engaged. My Mustang even with Ford Racing’s suspension under it and has 2-3”. I do realize the Mustang is a very different car than the 818, but there still needs to be mechanical conformity and the less flat the track gets the more important it is.

Anyway, I know you didn’t want a long conversation, but that is we’re I plan to start. It might change. I will also be starting without an anti-roll bar.

That would be rake. I believe he's referring to extension of the shock/wheel from static ride height.
Correct!

That makes more sense. , I've never actually checked that but to have only 1/4" you must be running some very stiff rear springs!
I think they are the same rates as yours.

Yes, droop is measured as: First the car sitting level on the ground, the distance from the top shock bolt to the bottom shock bolt. Then raise the car up on jacks and re-measure. Mine only extends down 1/4" to 3/8".

I'm used to production car suspensions where droop is often 2+ ". Dirt track cars run way more than that! But formula cars often run zero or tiny amounts of droop like I measured. The only way I can see to increase droop (if I want to, that is yet to be determined) is to change the top shock to the S height and then lower the coilover spring perch down back to the normal ride height. But then I lose that much bump travel.

I was watching the Monaco Grand Prix yesterday and now that I'm tuned into droop I noticed how often an inside front tire would be completely off the ground when they were cornering. They were running zero droop on their front suspensions.

Hobby if you get a chance I'm really curious what your droop is.

jforand

05-24-2021, 11:15 AM

Agreed that Formula cars will run way less and dirt cars will run way more. I believe that you will find this function is largely governed by the amount of chassis role that is allowed to manifest. If there were zero chassis role allowed then an inside tire picking up would point to zero droop. Formula cars actually do roll a decent amount more than you would initially think. The best way to see it is watching the in car view when they are ripping through some successive esses and looking at the upper front control arms. It actually is much more visible if you watch with the TV in a small amount of fast forward, it enhances the rate of change for the motion. Very much like watching the front wing elements bend down under the aero loading at high speed.

There is also another HUGE component to mechanical compliance and grip when you get into Formula 1 and that is the tire. They run 13" wheels and very tall sidewall tires. The tire itself is a HUGE part of the suspension. They rely on the tire to handle a lot to smooth things out and this allows for stiffer spring rates. In running the new lower profile tires they skate all over the place without making serious tunes to the suspension as the sidewall does not conform nearly as much. The lower profile tires we all run in comparison put us in a different boat.

So total chassis role is going to be the summation of the suspension deflection and the tire deformation/conformity. I believe that you will find this is significantly more than a 1/4" even on a Formula car. An anti-roll bar works to subtract out some of outer suspension compression as it attempts to lift the inside tire resulting in more of a squat than a role. SO if you start to see daylight under a tire my bet would be that you have already burned likely an inch of extension droop at the tire (not between the shock mounting bolts as you described.

If you are measuring at the shock mounting bolts then the physical setup and geometry really need to be know. In the 818 the geometry is as simple as it gets and the shock travel is still shorter, but a lot closer than the travel out at the tire. If you move the shocks inboard and use push rods to move cams and such to redirect the forces there are all kinds of other ratios that can come into play. I don't know the ration of shock shaft movement to tire movement on an F1 car (and I'm sure they are all likely a bit different), but I am pretty sure it is a lot greater ratio than we would have.

To increase droop you simply need to have more of the shock compresses at ride height. I did not do any exact measurements, but I would say something close to 1/3 of my available shaft travel is down in the shock tube at static ride height and available to extend up when the loading of that particular corner goes down.

One final note/trick. In an effort to understand how much shock deflection I will be getting on the track I installed a small zip tie around the shock shaft. You just pull it tight so it will hold its position and push it all the way up against the shock tube at static ride height. It will get pushed up the shaft with deflection and will come back showing the largest deflection achieved.

148394 148395

Sgt.Gator

05-24-2021, 12:22 PM

To increase droop you simply need to have more of the shock compresses at ride height. I did not do any exact measurements, but I would say something close to 1/3 of my available shaft travel is down in the shock tube at static ride height and available to extend up when the loading of that particular corner goes down.

One final note/trick. In an effort to understand how much shock deflection I will be getting on the track I installed a small zip tie around the shock shaft. You just pull it tight so it will hold its position and push it all the way up against the shock tube at static ride height. It will get pushed up the shaft with deflection and will come back showing the largest deflection achieved.

148394 148395

To increase droop you simply need to have more of the shock compresses at ride height. Doesn't that require softer springs? How do you compress the spring and keep the same ride height?

Thanks on the zip tie tip. I'm familiar with that trick, it's the same one for checking effects of aero downforce changes. A poor man's Linear Travel Sensor.

When you get a chance please post your measurements. Thanks.

Bob_n_Cincy

05-24-2021, 02:06 PM

Gator,
I increased the length of my top hats by 1" to keep the shocks at the middle of travel when at ride height.
148423

Since the picture above I have changed by springs to 500 in the rear.
I am also running helper springs in the rear so my springs don't unseat.
Bob

rear assembly

148427

jforand

05-24-2021, 08:50 PM

To increase droop you simply need to have more of the shock compresses at ride height. Doesn't that require softer springs? How do you compress the spring and keep the same ride height?

Well, yes. To get more compression/settling of the spring you either need softer springs or to reduce the preload on the spring. It will certainly lower the car. I have about 3" of ground clearance at the lowest point. I screwed the adjuster up with no load on the suspension just until the spring assembly had the slop removed. I also have the 500's in the front and the 300s in the rear as I believe the R supplemental instructed (to my surprise I might add). This way at full droop/extension I do not have to worry about the springs unseating as Bob discussed. I know I do not want to go lower. If I were to crank up on the spring more attempting to preload it would simply raise the ride height by stealing my available droop, which is also something I do not want to do much. If these settings aren't in the ballpark then a spring change really needs to be the answer. Cranking them 'stiffer' only raises the ride height by stealing the droop without preloading the spring until the shaft is at full extension and only then do you start preloading the spring. I am certain this later scenario will result in handling issues. You really want the shock to always be somewhere in the operating window and not bumping up against either extent under normal operation.

Thanks on the zip tie tip. I'm familiar with that trick, it's the same one for checking effects of aero downforce changes. A poor man's Linear Travel Sensor.

No problem, going to be monitoring these to gather data as to the suspension settings and spring rates.

When you get a chance please post your measurements. Thanks.

I'll try to work on getting measurements probably on Wednesday. I broke the car recently and have been very involved in trying to resurrect it. I actually succeeded tonight which is nice as I need to head out of town tomorrow.

Hobby Racer

05-24-2021, 09:28 PM

Hobby if you get a chance I'm really curious what your droop is.

I'm kind of curious myself. As soon as the transmission is back in the car and the suspension is connected I'll take some measurements.

BTW, I'm running the shocks in the "S" mounting hole to give me more ride height adjustment. My springs do come unseated when lifting the car.

Sgt.Gator

05-25-2021, 01:20 AM

BTW, I'm running the shocks in the "S" mounting hole to give me more ride height adjustment. My springs do come unseated when lifting the car.

Exactly what I was considering, except adding the Eibach Helper Springs like Bob did to keep them seated.

jforand

05-25-2021, 06:06 AM

I guess I misunderstood the original post and did not catch that you were really wanting to not change the ride height.

I actually am a bit worried about the the clearance to the exhaust header and then the oil pan. I think I will consider changing to the S mounting location in the rear as well and buy another inch or so.

jforand

05-26-2021, 02:39 PM

I took the car for a couple laps around the neighborhood. I looked at the zip ties on the shock shafts and decided I had too much travel (about 1.5") in the hood without any G's or bumps. I decided to move the rear shocks to the S ride height position as discussed and I put two additional compression turns in on the rear springs over just tensioning the spring assembly when unloaded. I think this will be the initial setting for the VIR trip.

Measurements:

Ground Clearance (measured at the front and rear edge of the driver's cockpit up to the lower side frame rail)

Loaded (static ride height, no driver)

Front - 4.0"
Rear - 4 1/2"

Unloaded (jacked on the centerline of chassis until the tire were just touching the ground)

Front - 5.0"
Rear - 5 5/8"

Shocks

Loaded

Front - 14 1/4" (bolt to bolt)
Rear - 14.0"

Unloaded

Front - 15 1/4" (bolt to bolt)
Rear - 15 1/8"

Since it was challenging to measure bolt to bolt I attempted to put a caliper on the zip ties and get an extension (droop) measurement there as well

Front - 0.75" (shaft zip tie direct measurement)
Rear - 1.15"

The numbers should match, but do not entirely cross check. I would trust the caliper zip tie measurement more than my bolt to bolt.

Ratio of shock shaft to ground clearance change, which should equate to droop at the tire which is really what matters.

Front 1:0.75 (tire/shock)
Rear 1.125:1.125 (There seems to be a bit of an error on this one as the tire should move more than the shock as it is further out, but the rear geometry is about as close to 1:1 as you can get with the shock very vertical and all the way out at the tire.)

Sgt.Gator

06-05-2021, 10:40 AM

I've spent a crazy amount of time going thru my rear suspension. This all started when we decided to do an alignment to double check why I was occasionally getting spins at mid apex with no throttle or brake inputs. We discovered that the rear suspension had movement that we could barely feel but hear it clearly. We thought the cheap eBay solid spherical rod ends had worn out. So I bought a set of LCAs from TSS Fab with the intent of a quick swap out. Nothing on this car is ever quick...

I started the disassembly and much to my surprise the eBay links were just fine. No play in the rod ends. It turns out the vast majority of the play was in the bolts. The previous builder used standard bolts threaded the entire length. Those thread surfaces were wearing down in every part of the suspension where they went thru the frame tabs. So after finding a thread in the forum about using AN bolts I ordered up a bunch of AN bolts from Aircraft Spruce and went about replacing all my bolts with AN. They are a noticeably tighter and more accurate fit than standard bolts from Lowe's. And bolts in double shear on the body are 50% stronger than on threads:

149086

Another issue was the spacers used on each side of the rod ends. Some were aluminum and had deformed. Others were steel but didn't seem to be in the right places to align the rod ends correctly.

It wasn't just the 1/2" bolts, there was also the issue of the LCA rod ends and the R height inboard bolt holes. I don't know what FF does in the new frames, but in my old first gen frame the upper R holes inside are not both 5/8" inch, the rear one is 5/8" and the front one is an OEM size metric hole. Since the rear is 5/8" it is not a direct swap with any LCAs designed for WRX/STI LCAs. Bushings are needed to adapt the oem sized rod ends to the 5/8" bolt.

And since I lowered the tranny a long 5/8" bolt would not work, it brought the nut too close to the CV boot. This wasn't an issue with the eBay LCAs using a 1/2" bolt, but to eliminate the play I need to use a 5/8" bolt. After a lot of permutations I ended up using a 5/8" bolt with a 3/4" x 5/8" bushing in the rod end and a nylon locking jam nut to secure it. The bolt is under almost no tensile stress in this application, it is all double shear stress, so I'm confidant a nylon locking jam nut will be strong enough to hold the bolt in place.

So then came the droop issue. To add a bit more droop extension I moved the upper shock mount to the S position (lower). To compensate for the ride height I lowered the adjuster on the coil over but it turns out you can't go very far doing that because the adjuster ring will contact frame and spindle adaptor and cause suspension binding. I also tried inverting the shock to reduce unsprung weight but although the shock can handle being inverted, it won't work in our frame, or at least I couldn't make it fit without frame interference. I ended up with a little less than 1" of extension/droop.

I went thru the initial setup of the LCAs per Wayne's instruction thread. I discovered that the upper trailing arms needed to be very slightly adjusted to eliminate toe in/out under compression. That may also have been part of the issue with mid apex spins under compression/lean.

Other mods in progress:
The engine cover at the humps vibrates quite a lot at high speeds. We temporarily installed bolts to hold it down but now I've swapped them for a quick latch type button release to each hump to secure it.

I need to carry more fuel than the little Boyd tank supplies. We talked with Fuel Safe about designing a fuel cell that would fit in the "stock" location behind the driver, and actually drew one up in CAD. The most we could fit in was 18 gals, but it's unlikely it would actually hold 18 gals by the time the a fuel pump and slosh box are added. In thinking about the actual use of the car I've only carried a passenger on track once. So I ditched the custom tank for a standard size 22 gal Fuel Safe Spectra Lite fuel cell that will mount where the passenger seat is located. The real capacity is probably about 20 gals. I've taken the passenger seat out and am awaiting the fuel cell from Fuel Safe. More on that in a couple of weeks.

Rear Fender flares for larger wheels tires. Permanent mounts for the Garmin Catalyst. LINK ecu (next fall).

Santiago

06-05-2021, 01:24 PM

It turns out the vast majority of the play was in the bolts. The previous builder used standard bolts threaded the entire length. Those thread surfaces were wearing down in every part of the suspension where they went thru the frame tabs. So after finding a thread in the forum about using AN bolts I ordered up a bunch of AN bolts from Aircraft Spruce and went about replacing all my bolts with AN.

Yup. I learned this with a front SLA conversion done to my Mustang years ago. When first installed, everything worked great. After a season of use, the threads started to bite into the parent metal just enough to nibble out an oval hole, creating slop. You would go into a hard braking zone and the car shimmied all around as the front suspension shifted back and forth just that tiny amount. I've used AN bolts wherever I can ever since (also per Carroll Smith's advice).

For folks wondering, this is a vibration thing not a lack of proper torque on the bolts. If you mark your bolts (you should) you'll never see the marks move. Torqued bolts are like stretched springs, so they will be subject to vibration. Most threads are harder than the parent material which they are joining (you know, like those Grade 8 bolts everyone thinks are the cat's meow). The threads will win the war.

J R Jones

06-05-2021, 01:57 PM

Bicyclops

06-07-2021, 03:03 PM

Based on my thus-far limited 818 experience, FFR fasteners are a mixed bag (SAE/Metric) and coordination of holes and fasteners is not consistently optimum.
Fabricating cars and parts my rule of thumb is one size larger diameter from the drill index. IE: 5/16 fastener, 21/64 hole for fit, tolerance and serviceability.
Not all fastener grades, torques and clamp loads are the same. A 3/8 or M10 can vary from 6000PSI GR5 to 14,000PSI Gr 12.9.
I gave-up on lock washers, but flanged fasteners where possible are advantageous.
An expensive alternative to bushing fasteners are shoulder bolts. In either case astute clamping is important.

As an A&P mechanic and aircraft builder, I was appalled at the grade 5 fasteners FFR provided. Threads in the joint! AN bolts with proper shank length were ordered for most everything important and holes reamed to size as necessary. Auto manufacturers are guilty of putting threads in shear joints, too. Too many different bolts to keep in inventory and too many ways for the assemblers to screw up. Old cars rattle for just this reason.

Ed Holyoke

J R Jones

06-07-2021, 08:45 PM

Ed, My (incomplete) 818 has has had two previous owners, so no accountability. I have found M12 nuts crammed on 1/2-13 shock mount bolts, and other atrocities. Today I found a mix of SAE and metric on the radiator frame....WT?
Metric used to be an inconvenient curiosity for me, but being observant and critical I have come to love them, especially Yamaha and Honda designs. The number, size and grade is always right with few if any fastening problems.

I recently rebuilt a 1968 300hp 327 SBC and was reminded of unplated fasteners and "two sizes fits all". The engine has 3/8 and 7/16 course fasteners everywhere. That period chassis stuff is somewhat more diverse and fine thread.
In comparison the metric brands I mentioned design more numerous and smaller fasteners. The lengths are discrete; they go together one way only; when they do not balance-out, you have done something wrong, assuming you saved everything.

BTW I bought Victor Reinz/Fel Pro gaskets and head bolt kits for the SBC. The head bolts are M11 - 2.0 and 12.9 grade flange heads. That fits the 7/16 bosses in the block. They come with sealant pre-applied to the threads.
I easily could get a 13mm socket on the hexes. I had to hammer the 5/8 socket on the interfered 7/16 head bolts to get them out. Good work Chevy.

Bicyclops

06-08-2021, 03:34 PM

I am SAE and am learning metric. It does make some sense, I'll admit, unlike '60s vintage Triumph motorcycles where I cut my teeth. British standard, Whitworth, and starting in the late '60s/early '70s some metric thrown in for good measure - Oh my gosh. It was so hard to deal with. My first Triumph didn't even come in a basket, it was more of a pile. Complete? Uh uh. Also back then my understanding of torque was tighten it until it strips and back off a bit. :-0 And the Queen's English maintenance maunual - "Use a spanner expeditiously". Actual quote from the manual. How's a teenage American doofus supposed to figure that out?

Sorry, serious thread drift.

Ed Holyoke

jforand

06-09-2021, 10:24 PM

Wow, you had a lot going on there. Shows the value of tearing back into things at regular intervals to inspect. Glad you found it all.

I guess a couple years ago now I had the 2016 Mustang up at VIR and had a similar issue. The suspension has been pulled and replaced with the Ford Racing Track setup, all bushings swapped for Delrin or sphericals, I run the GT350 wheels to get an 1.5" extra in the front and another 1" in the rear of rubber and utilize Pirelli racing slicks. I say all this to simply illustrate that the car encounters significantly more force than a stock ride would. As such, regular inspection is much more important. I find things loosen quite often.

There is a dip in the early part of the back straight coming out of a turn they call Oak Tree (slowest corner on the track). So as hard as you can hit it to optimize the start of the straight and hard on it from 2nd to redline in 5th by the end of the straight. So I was hitting the dip and the car was jumping all over the track. It felt like I was getting blasted by the wind like when passing a semi truck on the highway at times. I came back to the paddock and asked people if they were getting blown all over the place. They all looked at me like I was crazy. "Really? Like on the dip in the back straight? It is like tornado alley". Again, they all looked at me like I was nuts.

So I started jacking up the car to look at things and was watching the rear passenger tire was lifting and pulling in as they do during the extension until they lift off. Standard extension motion as expected until the tire lifted off the ground and the top of the tire tilted out (positive camber direction) by about 1.5" with a clunk!!!! Houston we have a PROBLEM. The outer bolt on the upper control arm (camber) had loosened and was allowing a whole lot of slop. Good news is I did not crash and actually did not damage anything. retorqued everything and the car was back to normal......the wind was gone:D

I would like to see someone else solve an inclement weather problem with a couple wrenches.

Sgt.Gator

06-10-2021, 12:10 PM

jforand, very similar episode in 2019 at the Cascade Enduro at Portland International. 3.5 hours into the race the right rear upper shock bolt that attaches the shock to the knuckle removed itself, causing the wheel to flop out at the top, spinning the car so hard counterclockwise that the left rear CV axle sheared off at the hub. Luckily it was in a rather slow speed corner and we missed hitting the wall. Another "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" day. Loctite on all suspension bolts. Nut & Bolt check everything under the car before a race.
No doubt I will miss one in the future though...:eek:

J R Jones

06-11-2021, 10:01 AM

j, I have a buddy with a similar Mustang that had a rear suspension failure on the street, or maybe an autocross. Anyway it broke the rear subframe near the shock mount. He stated it was not an uncommon failure.
I raced a GT350 in Trans Am with a Boss 351 when they went to GT rules.
jim

149385149386

Sgt.Gator

06-15-2021, 12:29 AM

Another track day on Sunday with highs and lows.
The highs: The rear suspension is now cooperating and is consistent. The only times I started to lose rear end traction was under too early power application coming out of turns. Each time I was able to catch it before it spun. Mid apex spins with no throttle or brake inputs are gone. And no off track excursions.
Oil temps, oil pressures, and trans temps were great after 2 x 20 minute sessions in 90 degree weather with a hot track. The little Garmin Lady was urging me on to go faster and faster. But I had to temper her with watching the boost gauge.
We were still seeing a boost control problem. I was trying to keep boost at a low setting to stay in my class HP/Weight limit, but the turbo kept going to 18psi at WOT. For the third session we set it to wastegate which should have been a solid limit at 13-14psi. On my 3rd lap there was a pop and decided lack of turbo power. I drove back to the paddock where we noticed a tinkling sound from the turbo. Packed her and came home.
Today we put a bore scope in both sides. The intake side compressor wheel and case is damaged. The exhaust wheel looks ok. Rather than start taking everything apart we decided to go ahead and order a new turbo. This one was a Subaru OEM turbo off a 2016 STI with 25K miles. Since I have no need for 350+ hp we decided to go with an IHI VF48 Hi Flow turbo. They are a slightly higher performing version of the oem VF48 used on late model STIs. And cheaper than a new one from Subaru, only $1,028.00 incld shipping from Flatirons.
Why it failed will have to wait until we can dissect it. That's on hold until the Fuel Safe cell and Link ECU are ready to go to, then we'll do it all at the same time.
It never stops!

jforand

06-15-2021, 09:49 PM

Glad you got the chassis sorted out. You found a lot so it had to be much better.

That is a bummer about the turbo. I saw your comments on my turbo and the fragile nature of them. I agree. Actually when I got the core in the mail of looked like they tied it to a leash and dragged it cross country. I go in touch with them saying there was no way it was balanced (or true) anymore and they said they would not do anything unless it mal-performed. I was like it will be a year before this thing spins!!! Anyway, I hope it lives, I think there is not a huge risk of failure being on the hot side. I don’t really have to worry about but shooting through the IC and into the engine.

Sgt.Gator

06-25-2021, 01:06 PM

The following is not about the 818R, but about my STI. However we typically will make the same mods to both cars, so what you see below will be coming to the 818R very soon..

Update on this: "Saturday at ORP was a downer. The STI was running lean and still has boost control issues despite installing a new downpipe and re-plumbed the Tial EWG. A compression test showed fine, but the leakdown test showed a leak in an intake valve. I have a spare engine ready to swap in, so we called it a day and took it to the shop to start the swap."

1) The Tial EWG was cooked to the point of the EBCS vacuum lines being brittle. They were literally toasted. We've rebuilt the ewg and and are running hard lines for the EBCS and coolant to it, see pics. The EBCS lines are stainless. The coolant lines are temporarily aluminum, we'll swap those out for stainless at the next service after we break in the engine at ORP.

2) We sent the heads and block to Outfront for their evaluation. They found one cam lobe and it's follower/bucket/lifter damaged. Did the bucket damage the cam or did the cam damage the bucket? Hard to tell, it's a chicken and egg thing. BC cams was contacted and they have agreed to replace the cam under warranty. Thanks BC for support!
Outfront is doing the head work including replacing all the buckets.

3) Outfront went thru the block and although no damage we went ahead and replaced the bearings and rings. This block/heads will become the new spare engine. I hope not to need it for a very long time, but history says that's not likely between running the STI and the 818R. :o

These pics are a work in progress on the engine stand. The lines will have heat protection and will be secured before it goes in the car.

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Sgt.Gator

07-07-2021, 01:15 AM

We swapped the failed turbo for a new IHI VF48 High Flow. We now know the what caused the turbo to fail:

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A tiny RTV gasket plug stuck in the oil feed banjo line in the turbo. The oil feed line did not have the oem wire filter, most builders remove them. The plug was a little cone shape small enough to move thru the line from the engine, but large enough to completely plug the line into the turbo. I have no idea how it got into the pressure side of the oil system without being caught in the oil filter first.

We are installing a Vibrant oil feed -04AN filter in the new line.

A new LINK ECU is also going in along with a fuel cell. More on that soon.

Meanwhile testing the new engine in the STI went well. No boost creep/spike. I'm really impressed with how cool the engine is staying. On a 100 degree day we ran 4 sessions for a total of 1.5 hours of track time. The coolant temp, oil temp, tranny temp, diff temp all stayed below 195 degrees! Oil pressures rock solid lap after lap in all corners. And for the first time I can ever remember on a 100 degree day, when I came off track after each session and idled across the grid and up into the paddock, at engine idle the oil pressure still read 25 psi! Normally it drops to 15 or even under 10 psi because the oil is approaching 250 degrees. I'm optimistic we have figured out the right recipe for keeping the engine cool.

Wayne Presley

07-07-2021, 08:32 AM

Sgt.Gator

07-07-2021, 09:39 AM

The bump out I'm sure was causing the rear twitchyness.

Hi Wayne. Great to have you active in the 818 forum, we've missed your sage advice! Are you building any 818s now?

Wayne Presley

07-07-2021, 10:05 AM

Hi Wayne. Great to have you active in the 818 forum, we've missed your sage advice! Are you building any 818s now?

Currently not right now but I do have an 818R kit that I should sell. I have a LFX swappped miata (GRM endurance car), LS3 swapped 996.2 (swapped and selling), GT40 Mk1 (fix, paint and sell), SC fox body (fix and tune) in the shop and an FIA to build right now.

Sgt.Gator

07-07-2021, 09:44 PM

I'm done with the JDM ecu and tuning it with a Cobb AP. And I'm done with the little bitty Boyd tank. Time to get serious!
22 gallon Fuel Safe and Link ECU going in:

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We will also move the battery and the fire bottle from under the hood to in front of the Fuel Safe in the passenger compartment.
Rear fender flares to fit much larger rear wheels/tires.
It should be ready for Test & Tuning next week. Arcflash is serious about getting it back in the races too.

We also plan to move the coolant tubes to the center tunnel and possibly a BMW ABS system. That is in the future.

Next Up will be an AIM integrated PDM and Display to replace the factory dash gauge display. Virtually all the wiring will come out and be replaced with motorsports grade wires and connectors. That will be this fall. The AIM will integrate well with the LINK Ecu and give us great datalogging and a bunch of other features.

Sgt.Gator

07-14-2021, 01:13 PM

Meanwhile testing the new engine in the STI went well. No boost creep/spike. I'm really impressed with how cool the engine is staying. On a 100 degree day we ran 4 sessions for a total of 1.5 hours of track time. The coolant temp, oil temp, tranny temp, diff temp all stayed below 195 degrees! Oil pressures rock solid lap after lap in all corners. And for the first time I can ever remember on a 100 degree day, when I came off track after each session and idled across the grid and up into the paddock, at engine idle the oil pressure still read 25 psi! Normally it drops to 15 or even under 10 psi because the oil is approaching 250 degrees. I'm optimistic we have figured out the right recipe for keeping the engine cool.

Sgt.Gator

07-15-2021, 05:42 PM

The STI is headed to Pacific Raceways for the Saturday ST and NWMECS Enduro races. We're breaking in a new engine so will be running less than the ST class HP ratio, much less the SST class cars. So we won't be competitive in class but it's all in the plan to have either the STI or the 818R ready for the fall Cascades 8 hour enduro.

Rob T

07-16-2021, 05:40 AM

Best of luck Gator.

Sgt.Gator

07-19-2021, 01:02 PM

Best of luck Gator.

The races / new engine break in were going well. I'd do a 15 min qualifying, pull the AcceessPort data log, send it to Josh at Arcflash in Bend. He'd make a small change to the map, I go back out for the next session. Both the ST and Enduro qualifying went fine. In the ST race everything was fine then I saw my oil pressure had dropped a bit, then the oil temp alarm went off. Crap, somehow in the grid I had turned off the pdm switch for the oil cooler fan! I got it back on while running a couple 10 second slower laps and the oil dropped back down from 260 to 200.

Then the Enduro, another map edit. 20 minutes into the one hour race I noticed that I was losing front grip which I thought was greasy tires, and my lap times were slower by 3-5 seconds. Then at the end of the front straight Bang!. . CEL and dash lights go crazy, almost no power. I pull off the track behind the turn 2 corner station. I figure I've blown the engine. Crap.
Towed on a flatbed hauler to the paddock.

Boxkita is right there......he's always there at Pacific when I blow engines.....I tell him he's banned from coming to another of my races there ever again. (He's a fellow Subaru fan from the LGT forum and retired racer now becoming a race engineer.)

We discover the left front tire is shredded. The shredded tire has eaten into the wire harness that runs in the top of the wheel well.

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This may sound strange, but I was so relieved and even happy! We are going to redo the wiring and ecu anyway. This just moves the timetable up from next winter to much sooner, as soon as the wiring and ecu on the 818R is complete.

There were some warning signs which I failed to recognize in real time, but I see now. More good judgement > experience> bad judgement.

jforand

07-19-2021, 03:24 PM

Good to hear there were no serious casualties in the event. Looks like you seriously chorded that tire all the way around and the entire belt package was detaching. Not sure it it is the inside or outside, but I would guess inside if I had to, really could be either depending on track and alignment. Though I will say that if it was the outside you had a mismatch with the alignment required for that car/track/performance level.

Did the tire actually deflate? I assume that was the "bang", otherwise it looks like it would have just been a general beating of things as the fibers and metal filaments from the belt whipped things relentlessly.

Hobby Racer

07-19-2021, 05:06 PM

Wow... sorry to hear that. I've never seen a tire so destroyed all the way around. Was it rubbing in the fender well that caused the failure?

Silver lining I guess is the motor is ok :p

Sgt.Gator

07-20-2021, 06:07 PM

It didn't deflate until about 45 mins later.
I was hitting the apex curbing harder than normal at Turn 5...real hard.... which was probably hitting the tire against the fender well.
We think it's a 1/2 day repair. So we are holding off on the ECU/wiring upgrade. Back on the track soon unless the ECU got fried in the process.

Sgt.Gator

07-21-2021, 01:55 PM

My helmet is just above the rear hoop because I didn't notice when we pulled the driver seat out to work on the fuel tank it didn't get put back in the same tilt bolt hole in the base. The stewards decided not to black flag me, but did meet me at my paddock space after the race about it!

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The Radical SR3 is almost always the overall winner in our Enduro race.

Sgt.Gator

07-26-2021, 03:49 PM

Hobby Racer

07-26-2021, 04:35 PM

How much of a flare are you using?

Sgt.Gator

07-26-2021, 07:24 PM

How much of a flare are you using?

These are test flares just clecoed on. We may not use this one, there's a couple of others we are looking at using. I'll let you know when we settle on them.

jforand

07-27-2021, 07:42 AM

New Boots!
FR1 F21 18 x 10.5" +20 Wheels factory setup cross drilled for both WRX and STI Hubs so I can use them on both cars.
Test with Hoosier 295/30/18. They fit great with a small 3mm spacer to clear the inside suspension.

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4m2Z7m4ZMQbQfVfPNxl89H19iL63do1_LANDyMgfcp2C3Jce2 aB79VOZKSRjD58U-wcW6eeY0v_kdlHDTkkCAuK1-qo5-1z0HPqmqfGGEsfWrL525Zezx98pnIXr7Dz3k7HfY5GV-VzubF5tN4CDkkndD_flW7J3_Ysa1hzY76UtZADo84yzV1utW8G WuvGIbt?width=828&height=864&cropmode=none

Looks like it will stick to the ceiling!!! I ran the 295 Hoosier on the rear of the Mustang and had then bumped up to 305 Pirelli slicks. I will say that Hoosier seems to run extra wide for the listed dimension in this particular neighborhood as they are very close to identical width as the 305 Pirellis. The Hoosiers have that large step out right at the bead/wheel intersection to keep the side walls standing up straight. It works well for squeezing there 295 onto a slightly narrower wheel than would otherwise work.

C.Plavan

07-27-2021, 10:47 AM

New Boots!
FR1 F21 18 x 10.5" +20 Wheels factory setup cross drilled for both WRX and STI Hubs so I can use them on both cars.
Test with Hoosier 295/30/18. They fit great with a small 3mm spacer to clear the inside suspension.

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4m2Z7m4ZMQbQfVfPNxl89H19iL63do1_LANDyMgfcp2C3Jce2 aB79VOZKSRjD58U-wcW6eeY0v_kdlHDTkkCAuK1-qo5-1z0HPqmqfGGEsfWrL525Zezx98pnIXr7Dz3k7HfY5GV-VzubF5tN4CDkkndD_flW7J3_Ysa1hzY76UtZADo84yzV1utW8G WuvGIbt?width=828&height=864&cropmode=none

I know you are aware, but I tried wider slicks thinking it would provide better grip, but it was the opposite on a lighter car. I could not heat the wider tires to heat up enough/or they would cool off too quickly to provide the preferred temps. YMMV :)

Sgt.Gator

07-27-2021, 11:18 AM

I know you are aware, but I tried wider slicks thinking it would provide better grip, but it was the opposite on a lighter car. I could not heat the wider tires to heat up enough/or they would cool off too quickly to provide the preferred temps. YMMV :)

This is definitely an experiment. I'm running a class down by using 200 TW tires. We'll see if going wider helps them or the R comps stick better. If not I already run Konig 18" x 10.5" +20 wheels on the STI, so I'll just use them on it.
Hope your season is going well in the NP01. Someday I'll get you up here to ORP for a weekend of fun!

Pearldrummer7

07-27-2021, 11:27 AM

man that thing looks good! congrats on a successful day.

My helmet is just above the rear hoop because I didn't notice when we pulled the driver seat out to work on the fuel tank it didn't get put back in the same tilt bolt hole in the base. The stewards decided not to black flag me, but did meet me at my paddock space after the race about it!

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mFJ-AoZbDNkD-tmSvyIUDiMyraEhd31JtIIyTt97hzBYQHeKWclk0f7RAIctei0 2tFT9IqQCjRhcZfbbDt2xQn1oPx91icDlQBIcS-KVFryxCadz71LLG_VnS3vqjVm0y5oJ6Xj5G6CsgF6E6yzUhjD2 kWFHrQQvORQwUnWaudqrXxQWTiPn9Xjq1X955wXva?width=10 24&height=682&cropmode=none

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The Radical SR3 is almost always the overall winner in our Enduro race.

Sgt.Gator

08-20-2021, 04:33 PM

As long as the old tank is out and a new Link ECU is going in, might as well do some wiring work. We found a few crazy wiring mistakes, a couple of which could have started a fire! That's all being fixed. Ultimately this winter the 818 will get the new AIM PDM/Dash/Logger. So this work wil support that swap.

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mwnK95wWb-qpFD8D3c3x3p3qTJBsrIGiptU6IrH1ZVIKljVTGUzSuzVSQU8D byFKc-t8OnB3y6whf48aNug_f0dqSuMK9SPk9pTD4NVrZtfxcpqMh7wT Lq49Xl81HB41Ey6S6W07IIjrqB_b87UfXUITAXnNOIzuiCcs2v G8glfxxiVz9TKqKmEjZ2eH-LsCE?width=933&height=700&cropmode=none

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Meanwhile tomorrow I head up to Oregon Raceway Park to support Team Continental (my sports car club) run a Time Attack/HPDE day.

Sgt.Gator

10-18-2021, 12:43 AM

Team Colonel Red Racing pulled out a win at the 8 Hour Cascade Festival of Endurance!

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mn9LjxzmCm90_6McZyt8bb-3J9ZWiLyv15BAZ_tmQuNwA-GhIuTOIrC_syHWWgyGwOM9-Pp8T3I52m2mEQrtQ8ZIiv8dzakesDfsuueTWAIrGv-CWKb5TQtYJaMmHRO8YWVCs6P2UNggOkIevJxP8VPODrle1_8Zf Kup556uhoS9vkRloTjiRKo1Le-nCAyPr?width=457&height=660&cropmode=none

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We were entered with the STI in the 2 Hour, 4 Hour, and the 8 Hour. We knew the 2 Hour would be next to impossible with other top level cars in our class including a Superlite SL-C. But some of those cars would be moving up to the EU class for the 4 & 8 hour. Our only shot would be if it rained, hard. We were doing the Subaru pray for rain dance all week but alas, it was dry and 68 degrees. Perfect for the supercars. Not so for us to be racing them.

But in endurance racing it's not who smokes the fastest laps for 4 hours, it's who does the most laps at the end of 8. Sometimes the tortoise really does beat the hare!

First to drop out was our friends at Dragonfly, their Factory Five 818R broke a CV axle. We look forward to pitting our 818R against them next year. And good luck at the Thill25, we'll be cheering for you!

For the 4 & 8 hour the superfast car was a SVT Mustang with ginormous HP. In the curves we could easily stay with him because every time he slightly touched the accelerator the back end would go all over the place. But once the track straightened out he was gone! Then shortly after the 4 hour race his engine went bye-bye.

We continued to soldier on, eventually passing their lead and going into first place. Unfortunately at 6 hours we noticed some strange vibrations. We changed the front tires out. A little better but still there. We changed the rear tires out. That didn't help. At 6.5 hours our right front CV Axle called it quits. I was able to limp around back to the pits where it took a little bit to figure out the outer CV joint had broken completely inside the CV boot. However by then we were cemented in 1st place so rather than trying to swap in a new axle we called it a race.

Huge thanks to our Premier Sponsor, Subaru of Bend. Your support has been key to get us to this point. Thank You!
Also thanks to our tuner/fabricator and friends at Arcflash.

And thanks to the PacNW Subaru enthusiasts who came out to crew, ya'll did a great job and are welcome to crew anytime!

Video next week courtesy of Frontside Productions.

Sgt.Gator

10-18-2021, 09:22 AM

Some nice shots of the Dragonfly 818R and my STI here: https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10224787097172191&set=pcb.10224787098252218

Jetfuel

10-18-2021, 08:59 PM

Congratulations Team Colonel Red Racing
Hard work pays out
Can’t wait for next year 818
Very cool shots of the day’s action
Jet

biknman

10-19-2021, 07:46 AM

Congrats way to go!

Sgt.Gator

10-20-2021, 12:15 PM

Dragonfly needs to work on getting their car lower to the ground....

154623

That's a Spec Racer Ford behind him in the black car. He was surprisingly fast and I've never seen one in an endurance race before.

biknman

10-21-2021, 07:18 AM

Sgt.Gator

10-22-2021, 10:35 AM

Gator,

I found these searching google for Dragonfly pics very interesting I wonder if it's something they regularly do? https://podium.live/events/dragonfly-motorsports-testing/device/dragonfly-motorsports-818-rsr
154650

Interesting. Here's the page with all their events so far: https://podium.live/u/dragonflymotorsports

Sgt.Gator

11-30-2021, 04:52 PM

We made this realtively short video of our experience at the Cascade 8 Hour Enduro.
With cameo appearances by Dragonfly of their 818R and Retro Racing's sweatshirts!

https://youtu.be/mKXiAW8axXM

Jetfuel

12-01-2021, 09:00 AM

Thank you so much Colonel I really enjoyed that video.
Once again congrats...

Jet

Santiago

12-01-2021, 09:34 AM

Love endurance racing! Hard on the cars, huge commitment from the drivers and crew. Congrats on the victory! Thanks for sharing.

Sgt.Gator

04-19-2022, 04:17 PM

I have a couple of big updates, first the dry sump:
The STI was still having oil heating issues if we revved over 6K at the Cascade Enduro. So we decided to up the game on the dry sump scavenge, and since I'm keeping both the STI and the 818R as close as possible the same configuration the 818R got it first.

We did away with the pump being driven by a serp belt off the crank damper at full crank speed. We switched to the normal HTD drive off an ATI damper (which means I have 2 x Fluidamper's for sale). We think this will finally cure the oil temp issue at high RPMs.
Going with an HTD drive means moving the pump towards the firewall just enough to allow room for a 4th scavenge section to fit in front the intake manifold, so we did that too! Now we have 2 x scavenges to the pan, and 1 x scavenge to each valve cover.
We also added a Spintric.

So far on the dyno it's working great. We haven't been to a track test yet. Our first race of 2022 is coming up April 30th at Portland International. Retro Racing is *hopefully* going to be allowed across the border and they say they're bringing their 818R to the race, so I'm really looking forward to this. Even if they have 100+ more HP than mine!
Pics:

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Sgt.Gator

04-19-2022, 04:34 PM

The fuel cell is in and all plumbed up. It sits where the passenger seat was located. The fill comes in over passenger side "door". We installed a window splash shield to prevent accidental gas coming into the cockpit when placing the jug nozzle, and the inside is fully sealed up.

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4m7Zi72a3Zr33OF-wA3PYRp49mzFiaNuW3wR8eiRPbQ_2LZzStESHzGEmgD2AVZ8Kp 5lyjFhSgQgY_O58MhDEuzUksVOEpHlmr8TI-oW_1NBaQxgWW8gvPl4QIon7vBYB4vu6M7E6xInZp5tOfQjf1db wphoLQ1SLpMTT-UH7zahYXjsI7MYivdnKMm_55QpyX?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mL9cELUU-xI0SsGt3wIuajahuvWmJ1SdX5HZHfoQkh32VevDnyUPZfQ4OFs e8BCzaLJgQ5ZpXXkllfkBgTZZ1PiStiN1oohdp3x-1J7OpqKiIR75IKObhWNAffkfkuWWn_KdgAwdyaUuGNi7rDO5R3 uch9xoyw4S1pPWwDTvnTobBO8_YVGfgxdDF90-WY8-Y?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none

Moving the tank makes room to move the driver seat back another inch or two. That's in progress:

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mWdRS-Y9_kIe0gQNeIBt-6vcwhuZXoLaGES7494cbCZ1DB3Qn2VD2ocKiybCvA1ReCmIry5 PBFSmtot8nLQubw6vD-et1wLTT_pQv7iegNYOSHUlVNObXWpw03YS9UZw0KOwdvT_iFsl zGyg7FTkEazIgoNbHLWgPAE4BagwNJLgY5TZqOQ5hjFAeZcmCg mOG?width=524&height=660&cropmode=none

The AIM Dash/PDM is in and hooked up to the LINK ECU. Also we mounted the Garmin Catalyst to the cage on the left side of the driver.

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Sgt.Gator

04-24-2022, 12:21 PM

https://youtu.be/h218Aq8zD1w

Dave 53

04-24-2022, 01:15 PM

Cool video. Hope to make it to Portland Intenational Raceway someday.

Sgt.Gator

04-25-2022, 10:26 AM

This is a copy of a post I just made in the Engines Forum:
If you haven't heard....As far as Cobb AP....that was the solution for the last 20 years, but no more. They announced a few days ago that their software and hardware will only support tunes that don't disable any EPA requirements. The tuner community is going nuts about it. Do a Google search on "Cobb Green Speed Update" and you'll see what I mean!

In essence the solution for race cars is a standalone ECU. The easiest and best value for older Subarus is the LINK ECU that is a plug & play swap into the Subaru oem ECU case. In my 818R we went with the slightly more robust LINK that has to be hand wired. For the STI we will probably go with the plug and play version. Of course there are many more standalones, popular ones being, AEM, Motec, Haltech.

blomb11

04-25-2022, 10:55 AM

This has put a wrinkle in my plan since I have been planning to use a Cobb AP and why I converted to all USDM engine sensors. My local tuner used Cobb but also offers EcuTek with flex fuel support so this will be my new approach. The only issue is there is no standalone AP and rather it is on an app on your phone.

The Link ECU sounds like a good option and will be my new backup plan.

Sgt.Gator

05-07-2022, 01:31 AM

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mORtMYXkUSBDDcITON8unBEN7kQtJmO5qls63oFxTrqoCMqE SFFWJz1ugatpTWQG8SnfgxKmxYxWC_Xw06qYk8PvfbNXj0KgNv 6RpRHIlSqPfiN_QKMnCfTlwcdTmsvnZ7BGXiUA0xE-nWxe696n4A7LOuCDRYXF8YD1gpQUSUhYzjpKgYxf9YGTOv-VYtBLK?width=660&height=440&cropmode=none

https://youtu.be/HymcCdnCvy8

At the start I was able to move up to 4th where a great race ensued between me and Simon Asselin in his Spec E46 for 3rd. I tried to pass him on the straights but he would late brake me into the corners, sometimes on the inside, sometimes on the outside if I tried to block the inside. It was awesome racing because we were both giving each other just enough racing room to not make contact. I was finally able to pass him and make it stick, but now he's right on my bumper in every set of corners. I have to pick a line that blocks him just enough to discourage a late brake attempt. We are in 3rd & 4th but then the car in 2nd drops out for a DNF, now we're fighting for P2. It was great. Then 22 minutes into the 30 minute race my oil temp alarm is going off and smoke is coming from the front left hood area. I know exactly what it is. To stay in front of Simon I was forced to rev to 6500 – 7000 rpm. My current dry sump setup can't keep up with that much blow by for that long and went positive crankcase pressure, blowing oil out my engine bay catch can. I had to shift at 5K for several laps to cool things down. By then he was long gone and and I ended up in 7th in class.
The fix should be a 4th scavenge stage and HTD drive. We have that work done on the 818R, so we'll have some data soon.
The racing was good and having Retro Racing down from BC again now that the Covid restrictions are lifted was especially good. It's great to team with them.

J R Jones

05-07-2022, 08:44 AM

Sgt, We raced SBF, Toyota, Mitsubishi EVO, Chevy I6 and BBF. All but the BBF ran 7K or more and did not have blow-by without engine failure. We ran without and with dry sumps on the Fords, to scavenge oil. Gear pumps are not efficient for gases.
I assume you have considered addressing the root cause of blow-by. I also assume blow by is compression/combustion relaited. If you eliminated blow-by would you not incrementally increase power?
Are you perhaps suffering from oil pudddling somewhere other than the pan or the sump tank?
Do you vent the sump tank and/or balance crankcase pressure from engine to sump tank?
jim

Sgt.Gator

05-07-2022, 02:16 PM

JR, I believe the root cause is driving the DS pump off the crank pulley and serp belt. We already have data from the 818 with it's newly installed HTD drive on the dyno that shows it will work. I'll write up a more extensive post later.

J R Jones

05-07-2022, 03:59 PM

Sgt,
We ran a four stage Aviad pump with a Gilmore belt and cog-pullies. On the SBF, oil did not drain-down propoperly so we ran a scavange pump to each rocker arm cover. We ran an oversized pressure stage.
I was driving when we determined belt life at three race weekends. Pulling up on the high bank from the infield at the Miwaukee Mile I spotted the oil pressure needle sweeping and killed the engine.
Next day I found the belt in that turn, unbroken. Fatigue stretch I guess.
The oil puddles could be drowning the breather system. Again, our engines did not have excessive CC pressure.

Sgt.Gator

05-09-2022, 06:55 PM

The 818R has gone thru a major update for many months. I'll be taking it to ORP this weekend for track tests so I thought I'd do a couple of posts to catch up and summarize all we've done.

Current Config:
Stock 2015 STI Shortblock and heads.
IHI VF48 High Flow Turbo. I really like this turbo, especially for the cost.
Aviaid 4 scavenge DS pump with HTD drive belt off an ATI mandrel crank damper. 2 scavenges to the pan, one to each head valve cover.
Peterson Vacuum Regulator mounted to the driver side valve cover former oil fill fitting.
Colonel Red Racing Modified OEM Oil Pump.
LINK Fury ECU
Fuel Safe 22 gal fuel cell mounted in passenger side. Polycarbonate clear spill shield where the passenger window would be in case the fueler get's sloppy. The cell actually holds 20 gals.
AIM PDM display and switches. This plus the LINK ECU removed a pile of wiring and vastly upped the datalogging capability and auto control functions.
Fender flares all 4 wheels.
Current tune: 334 HP / 328 TQ

First the PDM Screens we have setup. The screens can be cycled thru by a push button on the center console PDM switch control. Images:
https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mHKgtyWJ7QPrTU6q-3j4ItRCcs6fQMZLEBSlyZvQCI-w5tIP_O5jK-_YzisStsh5e8jVaJg7Ttcy3sDUDQyctWrmO-D_1RvST0dn8URx7UNWO-wEDg9QUNK174bLBHuWM5Bjht1aAetN4pF29VjPbd1ViObtyknK p_ZrB_FJSiKIR7rWcgMPScjqJtQ20r6oU?width=672&height=446&cropmode=none

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mb079J6nGws59OMglMBMoAHxy6dJDerqXXz1U1NY2t8QuRts wTUY4W3bIWCJKzPcu-iUN3kUfeF0r69PpobepNQ_friAIGqAo7T68TZsHCijdZ5I23rF P8Gvg85tjNV0xdBD0_C-e_S-0bzQKBXUGw0FsIzDjoTkQnXumIwhqzwYG5ftPCOqNlQ0J8M3HM iHH?width=721&height=480&cropmode=none

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mE5ET72GuGo2XK_T-gjjsBYhDhyVwWu2OlJxAVm-tgQgEVwu1No2cr5KytyphVq5yr2VW8fihqNPVuIfbJiHK5v5t8 _LP0MHFQ0Oo4oUCwaRG5uJGXc7so1SzGU5Kd8s4A3FEJbzcIS4 rvH9GJWAqbKdARw8g4XZ0cOcy_jhYW94Axl-7UFIefLpzLqsrNue-?width=504&height=283&cropmode=none

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4m4urRMx64ENTXrzyojYiB0EcsBVc0UQc5yOwUdbuKeDFdrS7 Myf2xfwkoOAHYHwZRp1zVaRXgi881DAvXW9FOpU-W2wd6J2ijPr3CEjsvoP_ZopNiJvKh9Z7hUKC-IkicTmxVOM985H7AvGp1k3ZgAHfJlsDGyofy0268DNeKwz-JISTo9TIxi1dUFcowozJl?width=672&height=407&cropmode=none

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mE9zwfq2OxgDZgLyQ2wF-X4Au29p7nLLmkuJ-DlEe8ECN_7Yu7GLrcbwSOx86_JCu1HJhcQ1ZVapIYoT21iDymc IhuTl3exeGnNbsfU1lK4yL0SdyKEz3e9yrg9nbaZgiT6iEUK09-7sXUVd4zUhhiXaQDE7bTpNHWE62G-jJIRoDYEA8ZXfUeCq8BDvXsOYV?width=672&height=442&cropmode=none

More pics and text to come.....

Sgt.Gator

05-09-2022, 06:59 PM

Cockpit Pics:

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4m768nvj5XhIDKK0w7Kr-gpgtGsExkFZTtMcMO38L8X1MN7zV4NyPY50L34Znri2LK1PyYX mSWH_dxZj-tqLoxZUElD9zSo6WXDczkz6t3nzrVxsWf-rdopZsY4EQ17NBEALJHRsMk5mXpJMxawalLmM6MfX5JacMcyiT QwsMM_EnL4TzEZhmKtPY6MIyGH2tL?width=672&height=504&cropmode=none

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4m6nJV8_oxlUKGa9ss7L__xmA429E8cawiK5KoOT9AvEiC-7VyjAuyNMOceMx9oZqgwjo2MyUcWM0az9re_OlZb6gZsDpHOAe _c0IGhIsyd45hajSoWNGWMyUOaXatvy3ZET17rHV5lPymtjh3J 7JELLIzYzfaomnyINuVVmx9MM4RKEGkIUWEfiQdzIPOZAOM?wi dth=672&height=382&cropmode=none

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mDCOQBpdKhnEJUqICS0r0QsQUqBinFyz7dxef-V_C_Xky9L5wWiQ9LlK8yYYA1vlG-p63dni6rRkUV4a9y_gtmUeYMBLu4SQGFYs_PglmnHjsq-QZ4cto8SzbE0mTTmXOwye4hZNLeJDlypRZswTL6IqNWlbjBR6G 8S3pp1cqDcpBkLe22A6ITNlNSBUXYzCL?width=433&height=864&cropmode=none

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mi5rLfRkLb9WZfqWm4mSDhA8UjcosV_r90nJkjEO3DSoKClY 5YZmV6oZ2WFmTTb0L8LyEU7h7gBInv0St6TwsGHjT3dUQTmNa7 EdMk1m65KINmWyU02LSvk7QAoGWD0SvnjnRxylIMGPQl1Mtwmy nXTRO9sOaB4Lk2UOWeZJISa0Www0Xg9QW7X_iBW08nRzd?widt h=672&height=896&cropmode=none

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mmgBYP-ikXRSa8GOfOcR9wW3ppyE8FXfD9-94sbjgyCiU2zjeNVyRC5hRi_XAZzrZn02BVmVMZzaFnn6gPURt 6c-DHhML5IVp_vHJ-2lgVQTIPLAwmsIPC_4jyYGtV-NC-bP4pQNUAaaDXQAbHhrbV1e78VqXov-H1jpOhgotHNz19auRi_xOtB8EofH9LY84?width=672&height=1016&cropmode=none

Sgt.Gator

05-09-2022, 07:06 PM

Some of these are a bit of a repeat:
Vacuum Regulator:

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mhRnAGplINNO8SoFuprPys1AnQP646LiEjpbiRdiBOa9MSE_ tFUInEf54ZWlaZY-OXctoaEva2JYjK0IJvlV1sWUyok8wcK2sj6ECFiinTByaUmyjC 21Ue_vPHFlQdkXM3K9Et8PzdxS9c1AiomCVKuepHB6l5hp1arr g14UIIo5CMKODItTCIxxQZhNYb1F_?width=672&height=896&cropmode=none

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mnjBUDsuz_sYbyOzR161OcNZryeMx0yCElvYSWRQUiTtKvdq EAmQIH2x1MOoK9yjs5FLRN9KSzI4-qQSHatt4439kzcZO9IXVdCLTjB-J5cICTzVhcZL7maPzvMfeWZrjCABafHPUgVwsFPhTtg67kivzc 1rXJ-XDyOOmnK2kG2JOPGf711uqRCkAC7Hpd05L?width=672&height=897&cropmode=none

Crankcase vent and one way valve. The small tube runs to the AIM data to log/display vacuum and hopefully never crankcase pressure.

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4m-UyiAYPlSecO69vtKfkuyElAoDOSr3BnMJ5O86fTsNPInOoWR4V N7ED801j5ea86tUm4vjI6zh_i7aZ-yVXgvodtMQALEcAyXfwESB2m0JdYhAbLN7YmL-gV5RGMLNomu3KILygxRrv8aN6vdAu1VAw1sa2eghaw2KEvIP8R gvdTUIAleDAXVwWBJ4AqNfZ8?width=672&height=672&cropmode=none

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mQZyXIsT9m0TXh-3ZiSRH_VzTG7w-HRXhwrY37GaqqHOIX4704-W3Z0RYsOgV8WMUjdKejNQWWcmrf1mnz4CCkIqZQHe3VY_nOeXK xn9y_3szCiJTyIHUuZ80QDJ1TA8WejX0PwaDe9CUqsHE5oPnUq NFXmH4lZ9o-brQRpUJo2mEmIv1VIjmOlzSXQAsk6Cy?width=576&height=641&cropmode=none

Sgt.Gator

05-12-2022, 04:03 PM

When Arcflash first suggested I switch from an AIM MXm to the AIM PDM32 I was very hesitant. I was thinking it was just a fancy PDM. But now that I've spent some time with it I see why they wanted me to switch, it's very impressive. Calling it a PDM is not really accurate. It's a massive datalogger (4GB) with a ton of inputs that integrates with standalone ECUs, eliminates a great deal of wiring, has a a choice display Dashes (6" or 10") to rival any other, and GPS. Alarms, Shift Lights, even datalogging on the Voltages.

It's not just for race cars, it has plenty of inputs to control wipers, lights, all the usual street car accessories.

Next fall we will put one in the STI.

If I were building a new Factory Five of any flavor I would certainly start my specs with this unit.

If anyone wants a powerful and compact datalogger/display, my AIM MXm is up for sale. $1,000.
I also have an AIM Lambda Controller as a separate item. It works with the MXm or any AIM dash, over CAN. But it does not include the Bosch Motorsport LSU4.9 wideband O2 sensor, you'll need one of those.

Sgt.Gator

05-19-2022, 05:06 PM

ORP 818R Test
We took the 818R to Oregon Raceway Park for it's season first testing after the extensive upgrades to the dry sump, ECU, datalogging, and display.
First the good news:
The new AIM display is fully readable in the sunshine in an open car. In the past this has been an issue but the screen brightness was fine.
The new 4 stage dry sump with HTD drive worked better than expected. At cold startup idle the vacuum was -3.1 psi (about -6-7" vacuum) Before with the serp drive this was the when we had max vacuum, usually around -8 psi (-16" vacuum). That's a lot of vacuum at idle, so the new HTD drive has fixed that issue. Here's snapshot of the typical AIM data:

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mBFfugitXUQQrA4dm9echTmPEKgI-iuikfYs53-1OlvWxDnfOXCh94hzQKWw8uXQuOwuJltVNk1najHVrrT14HDid NhUOfBSrw7TMsY5OmGIh4jpGhiAOFgaKtFEb8JLxLuehtIAaYS vW3wguhg9rUizowyyaxnN9129FadgMfDHKXKhP5JlalmxtzvKN iIrL?width=344&height=192&cropmode=none

At full tilt, 6K+RPM, 17psi boost, we still had -4.2 psi (about 9" vacuum) and 58 psi oil pressure. Out standing! The least our datalogger captured at high rpm was -3.5psi. Here's snapshot of the typical AIM data:

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mTprvfGOSOOMOZYweCPsQmGdMR0lB42Kq45ryFwODSg8_t0n vOECZVjcWyc5MYOsDxa4fcxkjXMrU_zPZ-SXXgU9OfIpINe5we0xrlmUHojos4fJQ8M5ZAGRdMywujwM7E0w HLohVVOLIdk4Y30h8NMCXvEvhD5bjrNgrixKv60nQ__Z5DfHrI BiZg1o0ZhGo?width=382&height=192&cropmode=none

This means we will certainly be swapping the STI over to the 4 stage and HTD drive shortly.

<<>>
The second session the engine called it quits. In the video you can see the moment it happened in the small video box from the camera facing backwards. It smoked so much for awhile I thought I might be on fire and was ready to pull the fire system. So did the corner workers who called out the fire brigade. But it was all internal, no oil spill, no chunks of aluminum engine block and pistons sprayed across the engine (yes, it's happened that way before).

I have a new engine sitting on a stand, we'll pull this one out and swap over the accessories, and install.
This engine was used from a 2015 STI and bore the brunt of the learning process about dry sumping and oil issues. We intentionally did it that way because we knew it might be expendable, and saved the new closed deck/forged pistons block to be installed once we had the formula correct.

I'm re-evaluating my desire to hit all the ICSCC races this year. The tow costs have skyrocketed. I figure at least $500 in diesel for round trip to Spokane, plus $200 in gas at the track. I may only go to ORP Club and races at PIR.

https://youtu.be/rRVDUNjBv9k

Rob T

05-20-2022, 05:44 AM

Gator: Good news on the dry sump system and the modifications you have made. Sorry to hear about your motor self-destructing. I'm sure you'll let us know what happened after the autopsy. Fuel prices are a bummer....

Bicyclops

05-20-2022, 11:27 AM

Gator, I'm working on plumbing up my S. I'm following your lead with the Aviad dry sump and I'm wondering what type hose you'd recommend for the scavenge lines to the pump.

Also, is the vacuum regulator necessary? Does it pull excess vac without it?

Thanks,

Ed Holyoke

Sgt.Gator

05-20-2022, 12:52 PM

Thanks Rob, I'll take pics when we tear it open.

Ed, We use BMRS lines now on everything. (Brown & Miller Racing Solutions). They are very expensive custom lines. You send them the specs and they make them and ship them to you. As you can imagine that can be a major hassle. We are getting a BMRS crimper so we won't have to do the custom thing so we can build a BMRS line ourselves.

Aeroquip and XRP make good hose and fittings you can build yourself. So do several other vendors. The main thing from whoever supplies the hose is that it is vacuum rated.

Yes and No on the vac regulator. If you want to take advantage of the benefits crankcase vacuum you need a Peterson Vacuum Regulator for sure. We have ours set at -7 psi. You don't want o pull more than -8 psi.

Otherwise you can run a vented setup. You T the valve cover vents together and run the single line to the top of the DS Tank. Another fitting on the top of the tank runs a line to vented Catch can.
Basically like this except you don't need the external oil filter. It doesn't actually show the line running back to the valve covers, but it's noted in the upper right. Image courtesy of ARE:

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4m1XrhhMIPRdDeYNIiHbI4XIjug5Phwkx8TNvBYyxYYGQ9mPJ NofMpIsLvm7s7Qcl3P5TMj_CqvIrwIFJUUAAIRRB7rYwvoSUQA PR4IgbKKVLgZLGkFhPulDfErpkrSk01JHpYilKk7dO_9Zgfl2O HYOCp8wSDIztfopjX52EwxDaizI5rNb4nhQxc9rJ1lXji?widt h=1024&height=632&cropmode=none

And if you incorporate a Spintric;

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4m9Bx5VrkHKrqwydBtwZ6EoQLvx4hOHxf-_9Hkewm6KxLH3EiUMcf_PxsTrLJsMyAMQOpuQaOC57AUud9DFD NIM0J-r07VMw9VGc6kGLDQ2-Ch1X0jJLPApM1-WJIhjV_R0QioGs0gFIcoQJRnxf_Rrg2kNsEfgemPB3EV52_uog jJiuomzlRajeJBcGxOlirB?width=650&height=464&cropmode=none

No matter whether you order the pump from John at Aviaid or Gary at ARE, you want Side In on the scavenge and Top Out on the pressure to the DS tank. They will not come that way unless you specify it.
Edit: I meant Top IN on the Scavenge and Side OUT on the Pressure!
The normal is bottom out on the pressure which is a tight fit.

Bicyclops

05-20-2022, 06:54 PM

All the hoses that say they'll handle vacuum want crimped fittings. Sigh. Might have to pay the big bucks and get them made up.

Ed Holyoke

Bicyclops

05-20-2022, 07:32 PM

No matter whether you order the pump from John at Aviaid or Gary at ARE, you want Side In on the scavenge and Top Out on the pressure to the DS tank. They will not come that way unless you specify it.

Hmmm....I could swear that your pictures show top inlets and side out. It looks as if side inlets would foul the intake manifold, at least the rear ones.

I found XRP proplus XS hose in -12 for ~ $22 and they say that it will work with reusable fittings.

Ed Holyoke

Bob_n_Cincy

05-20-2022, 10:12 PM

Rob T

05-21-2022, 05:38 AM

One thing I learned from my system is that you want the spintric to be the last thing in the line before the tank. The spintric is basically a centrifugal separator and if the pressure drop on the separated liquid line is greater than the separated air line, some of the liquid will take the "easy" way to the tank, bypassing the cooler. (This comment is based on "physics" of the separator, and I believe directionally correct - how much bypasses has not been quantified) I send the pressure discharge from the scavenge pump through a cooler in the side scoop and then to a cooler in the back that is thermostatically controlled (the fan is) and then through the spintric to the tank - the liquid in the tangential inlet and the vapor in the top. My tank is vented to a catch can with a vent. Along with the issue of needing three scavenge pumps, I believe some of the earlier heating issues on my car were caused by having the spintric right after the scavenge pump before the coolers. Foamy oil does not seem to be an issue for the coolers, although not as efficient as non-foamy oil, and there is undoubtedly some surging that occurs back to the tank. However, my car has at least 8 quarts of oil and nowhere near that amount of hold up in the lines and coolers, so oil supply is not a problem. At this point I am only seeing 175F oil on 80F+ track days during 20 minutes sessions.

Sgt.Gator

05-21-2022, 08:57 AM

Sgt.Gator

05-21-2022, 09:59 AM

Gator,
Let me know if I understand this correctly.
1. With a serpentine belt the two original pumps spin at about 120% of crank speed. So the pump is approximately 8000 rpm.
2. with the toothed belt the four new pumps spin at about 50% of crank speed. So the pump is at approximately 3200 rpm.
What is the root cause?
Is it that running a gear pump at 8000 rpm is too fast?
Bob

IMHO, yes. It spins too fast. I'm no fluids engineer, or engineer at all, so I have no expertise other than reading a lot about pumps and cavitation, and the 7 years now of real life experience. Over the years I kept using larger and larger pulleys on the pump, which moved the overheating and loss of suction issue higher up the rpm range. But I ran out of room for a bigger pulley so decided to do what every other dry sump system in the world does, drive it at 50% crank speed with a toothed drive. Running it off the A/C ring on the crank pulley was the most compact way to do it, and the cheapest, but ultimately I gave up on it.

However if you limit your crank RPMs to under 6K, and only very occasionally spin it above 6K, you can go for hours with pressure and temperature in great shape, and the crankcase pressure staying just barely in vacuum.... But in just a few laps of spinning to 6,500-6,800 RPM the temperature would spike up dramatically, the oil pressure drop off, crankcase pressure would go positive, which quickly filled my under hood catch can to spilling oil all over the place.
In the Cascade Enduro in the STI we had that problem in the practice session when one of my new to the car drivers went out to practice. He made it about 4 laps before it went wrong. For the race we limited our RPMs to under 6K and went for hours with great oil temps and pressure.
But trying to do that when I was swapping leads in a sprint race proved to be too much for me at this last Portland SPM class 30 minute sprint. I went from 2nd place to 7th when I had to back off and let the oil cool off. It also cools off and goes back to "normal" in a dramatic fashion too. For a couple of laps it stays hot as heck, then suddenly the oil temp gauge starts going down and everything is good again, in about 1/2 a lap!
That tells me the oil was foaming, once the foam is gone it's back to normal again. The big problem is how much damage has been done to the crank and bearings for those laps when the oil was foamy? I'm guessing quite a bit of wear/damage. We'll see what the next Blackstone report says about the STI. I have a feeling it will be needing a refresh next winter, if not sooner. I think that's why the 818R engine went south last weekend. I should probably pull the engine out of the STI now and rebuild it. I'm limiting how far I'm going to tow to races this season anyway so I won't be in contention for any championships.
That also makes for Happy Wife - Happy Life. :D

One thing I learned from my system is that you want the Spintric to be the last thing in the line before the tank. The Spintric is basically a centrifugal separator and if the pressure drop on the separated liquid line is greater than the separated air line, some of the liquid will take the "easy" way to the tank, bypassing the cooler. (This comment is based on "physics" of the separator, and I believe directionally correct - how much bypasses has not been quantified) I send the pressure discharge from the scavenge pump through a cooler in the side scoop and then to a cooler in the back that is thermostatically controlled (the fan is) and then through the Spintric to the tank - the liquid in the tangential inlet and the vapor in the top. My tank is vented to a catch can with a vent. Along with the issue of needing three scavenge pumps, I believe some of the earlier heating issues on my car were caused by having the Spintric right after the scavenge pump before the coolers. Foamy oil does not seem to be an issue for the coolers, although not as efficient as non-foamy oil, and there is undoubtedly some surging that occurs back to the tank. However, my car has at least 8 quarts of oil and nowhere near that amount of hold up in the lines and coolers, so oil supply is not a problem. At this point I am only seeing 175F oil on 80F+ track days during 20 minutes sessions.

I've spoken to Gary Armstrong about the routing. He says the Spintric should be before the cooler, he wants it mounted in front of the cooler because the cooler is more efficient with the air separated.
But if it works for you, that's great. And Gary has a new dry sump tank with the Spintric built into the tank, so obviously that has to be after the cooler. If I were specing out a new DS system I'd probably use his new tank with it built-in.

Rob T

05-22-2022, 05:33 AM

Sgt.Gator

05-22-2022, 11:09 AM

Gator: You make a great point about the rpm. I looked back at some of my laps at CMP. My max RPM is about 6500 and I probably average 4500 - 5000 during my laps. Nowhere near where you are running during your sprints. That may make all the difference. I am not seeing the same, extreme conditions you do, but interestingly, suffered the same issues with temperature, solved with the extra stage on the scavenge pump.

My current thinking on this is the 3 stage scavenge with an HTD drive will work for 99% of the 818s on track. I went with 4 scavenge stages because I could, and now I'm standardizing both the 818 and the STI as much as possible. The new engine going in the 818 will spin to 7K routinely so I'm happy to err on the side of caution and go 4 stage scavenge.
A 2 stage scavenge definitely doesn't work, even with an HTD drive. I had the Cosworth system which is 2 scavenge stages driven by their unique HTD drive and it couldn't keep up with the oil flow/bypass gases.

Rob T

05-23-2022, 05:27 AM

Gator: Makes sense. Thanks for all of your trailblazing on the dry sump issues. It has help many of us get to a good place with our cars, and I really appreciate it. Your tenacity and willingness to share are outstanding.

jforand

05-23-2022, 10:05 AM

Sgt.Gator

05-24-2022, 10:14 AM

Do you have all the data relevant to the oiling system up to and during the engine failure? It would be very power to look at the graphs for oil temp, pressure, etc over time. The snaps shots look good, but the graphs would expose any anomalies if they did exist. After all, this is the method used to expose and diagnose the issues with the original dry sump kit. It would be proof positive if the new system passes the exact same scrutiny.

Not just oiling but knock and a bunch of other data that can help diagnose broken engines. The LINK ECU is cool because it measures knock at each cylinder firing event, so it can tell you which cylinder is the one with knock.
If you have AIM RS3 and LINK PCLink G4x I can send you the files to look at yourself. Much more powerful than snips of graphs.

I looked bit harder at the data, there's a weird oil pressure glitch that wasn't there before...occasionally the oil pressure drops from say 60 psi to 29 psi and shoots back up, but it takes place in 2 tenths of a second.. The kind of change that wouldn't even start to register on a gauge. I'm not convinced it's real. It may be a voltage and sensor issue. We're looking into that. We are running the same CRR/OEM pressure pump which doesn't show this before we changed the electrical wiring.

jforand

05-24-2022, 03:15 PM

Interesting. I do not have the ability to read those files, but appreciate the offer. I agree that the pressure fluctuation is far too fast to show on a standard gage and even if it did you would likely not be looking a the exact right moment. Personally, I would be concerned about that anomaly. You have a lot of things in play and it does happen to coincide with a catastrophic event regardless of possible previous damage or not. Half the pressure could be a few things, but my first though would be aerated oil. You won't get the pressures if you are pumping aerated oil. The next time you are on a dyno I would be sure to repeat your experiment where you were running at say 7k rpm and look to see if that reservoir drops substantially. If it does, it could be pulling aerate oil in before it can separate. This would be your classic issue of scavenge flow being less than supply flow. The only way to know that one for sure is to watch the level at speed.

I know you have pretty strong conviction on the speed of the pump, so I will just throw this out there and leave it alone. If the scavenge plumbing to the pan is the same size as the original setup (~-12AN times 2 lines) and you spin the pump at half or less than the original kit design you will get less oil up those lines. You are going to get more oil from the heads which is great, but this becomes a very mathematically dynamic fluid flow problem. There is a speed at which you will get NO oil up those larger center lines. As a slug of oil is picked up and travels up the tube it will lose oil volume to the tube walls. As it progresses the slug will get smaller and smaller until it will essentially 'pops' and the air will flow right on by. This is inevitable with the pump up top, there just in not going to be full pipe flow (and you don't want full flow in this setup). The magic is what happens next. If there was NO air flow I think we would all agree that the oil would simply migrate/flow back down the tube walls to the sump right? It is the air flow velocity that drives the oil up those tube walls. The air velocity needs to be increased to the point that the oil coating the tube walls is forced to migrate up against gravity and still come out the top. This would be like an air compressor line spitting water. Short burst here and there are dry, you can't get water to run the tubing walls for considerable distances. It migrates a little and when flow stops it simply falls victim to gravity again. If you sustain the high flow like in say painting a car, you will flow water up the tube walls and spit it all into your paint job.

I like the idea of dedicated scavenge to the heads. I think you have increased that without question, but I believe you have decreased your scavenge from the pan, how much is a very hard thing to answer as this is not just a full pipe volumetric flow calculation, it is an induced tube wall migration flow problem (far more complex). I can't say for sure what the reality is, but I can say for sure it is possible you are scavenging less than before. Based on the iterations you have tried this might be an easy (possibly free) thing you to try. If you were to re-pulley so that the pump was again running at the faster speeds it would restore the pan suction back to the original state and you would also have the additional scavenge at the heads. In this instance I think it would be virtually guaranteed that the scavenge was as effective as possible and would math that of the supply. The proof would be a steady state level in the reservoir level. I would expect that there will be some drop on rpm increase as the supply flow is directly linked to engine rpm and the scavenge is linked to engine rpm, but through induced oil flow from the passage of air. In other words, the air flow has to pick up speed and then the oil flow will follow. This would be the same induced flow lag that you get in carburetors. The fuel accelerates slower than the air and thus you need an accelerator pump (the fuel squirt) to get you through that transition. I would expect a drop and then a recovery if the rpm is sustained.

Rob T

05-25-2022, 05:12 AM

jforand

05-25-2022, 12:41 PM

Along the same lines....my three suction lines are on the bottom of the pan. The two originals are -12 and are to the rear of the engine. The third and newest one is toward the front of the engine. It is a -8. Interestingly, the -8 always gets warmer faster than the -12 when I touch the inlet of the scavenge pump. Is this because it has less thermal mass than the -12 and/or because it is moving more oil, either because of it position in the engine or because a -8 makes a better "straw". Or it could be some other reason completely. Eventually, everything warms up. I looked again at my data from the last track day. At the end of the third session, my coolant was at 190 and the oil was at 155.

This is great info Rob. I believe it is the latter "because a -8 makes a better "straw"". I assume that you are sitting there at roughly idle warming up the car. A smaller tube will make a better straw as the flow velocity will be higher and there is less wall for the slug of oil to lose volume to. Smaller volumes of oil will full flow up the tube much further. Also, at lower rpms the pumps (gear pump stages) are running slower than at operating rpm so the total airflow is down from track operations. The slower flow will entrain less oil and will take longer to pull it up and flow along the tube walls. I would expect this warming progression to be exactly as you described across the different sized tubes.

Further, I do like the idea of the different sizes tubes because the engine operation does indeed change. At idle the smaller tubing will function better and extremely large tubes might not function at all. As you wind it up you start to need more flow than the -8 can provide and the larger tubes start to come online and/or increase in function. It is tough to make one system have very wide operating parameters. This would be similar to needing different 'jet' engine technologies to get to crazy speeds...jet engines (mach 1-2), ram jets(mach 2-4), scram jets (mach 4-6+), rocket engines (6 and up) if you are into that type thing.

Sgt.Gator

05-26-2022, 05:16 PM

Interesting thoughts.
I'm starting to learn how to use RS3 Analysis, it's got some good tricks. I've come to the conclusion that the oil pressure drops only happened at a few places on the track, but the same ones every time. They share one thing in common: Turns with high Gs laterally and negative vertical Gs (decompression) at the same time. Under Compression it never happens, and under neutral vertical it doesn't either. Right hand turns were far worse, but Left hand turns with decompression also caused a bit of pressure drop too. Nothing compared to the Right turns though. We were running clockwise so I suspect CCW would have caused more Left hand turn issues.

Oregon Raceway Park is most famous for it's elevation changes combined with corners at elevation transitions. In this data I hit -.67 G of decompression, and 1.5G lateral. I probably could have run around Portland International Raceway or Spokane (now called Qlispé Raceway Park) and had no problem. And the STI with it's taller and narrower tank might not have seen it.

I've run the 818R around ORP for years now and not seen this particular oil issue. However we usually run more oil in the tank than this time.

In short, there was not enough oil in the 818 tank to keep the drain covered 100% with oil under those combined G conditions. Hopefully I'll never make that mistake again......

The LINK ECU has some very cool logic for setting alarms. Instead of the simple Alarm whenever oil pressure drops under 20 PSI type gauge alarm, we can set up to 50 conditional events that set off alarms such as:

If Oil psi <40psi @ >4,000rpm then alarm. If oil psi <45psi @ >4500 rpm then alarm....etc., up and down the rpm band. We just have to be careful not to set off a bevy of false alarms, which we will learn from experience and data reviews.

The STI should be ready to go with it's new 4 stage system for testing by June 13-14. It doesn't have a LINK or AIM data yet so it will be the old style gauge watching.

Rob T

05-27-2022, 06:02 AM

Gator: Interesting thoughts about the negative g's in the vertical direction. I never thought about that as CMP is pretty flat. On the supply side, I always assumed that a tall column of oil in a tall, skinny tank was the "guarantee" that enough oil would be present at the suction of the OEM pump. Another additive thought....what side of you oil pan are your suction lines on? All three of mine are on the left. While the volume is small in the pan, a hard left turn would move oil away from the suction and a hard right would bring it to the suction. Negative g or "lower g" in the vertical would move it "less" toward the suction in any case. Do you think the two may be related? Low overall oil volume in the tank, but not so low that it didn't work most of the time, and a big air slug in the suction side of the scavenge system temporarily (very short order) keeping oil in the pan, thereby causing the tank to go empty for a short time until the liquid slug hits it and "refills" the tank?

I did a lot of work with positive displacement pumps in the food industry during my career. A working assumption for a gear pump is that it is a fixed volume device, especially when it is "wetted". Have you ever researched volume per revolution of the scavenge pumps, at least from a theoretical perspective? Pumping air or oil foam with a positive pump, while still constant volume, makes the calculations much more difficult because of varying pressure through the system. Think ideal gas law: Pressure*Volume=constant at the same temperature (pressure is absolute pressure). There is no doubt we are pumping foam at least some of the time. When I was talking to Phil, we always talked about running the pump fast enough to deal with the foam or air by essentially overspeeding the pump more than we needed on a theoretical basis. In either case, with my drive belt and pulleys or your new system, we are overdriven, I believe.

Also, I read somewhere that at the engine speeds we are running, the OEM oil pump is circulating around 10 gallons per minute of oil. If that is true, my entire tank is circulated every 12 seconds. Which also means, absent of return from the scavenge system (or a temporary hold up of oil somewhere), the tank is "draining" over an inch per second.

Sgt.Gator

05-27-2022, 12:31 PM

Hi Rob,
Yes my scavenge outlets on the DS pan are on the left. My main problem by far was right hand turns. As you mentioned, right hand turns throw oil to the inlets. It was the right hand turns that would cause the 60psi to 30psi back to 60psi drops in the course of less than a second. Comparatively, left turns would cause the oil pressure to drop 3 psi at a time when the psi should have been going up because RPM was going up (exiting a turn). In the data it would go from 50psi to 47psi back to 53psi as the rpm was climbing. So I don't think it was the suction outlets on the pan.
It was probably related to terrain features when going clockwise. Although I'm not planning on running CCW with the same low oil tank condition to find out!

"Have you ever researched volume per revolution of the scavenge pumps, at least from a theoretical perspective?"
Yes, as GPM @3,000rpm. Remember you can order different widths of scavenge pump sections, so it's related to the width of each section. These are approximate:
10 gpm for 1.00" @ 3000 pump rpm
12 gpm for 1.25"
15 gpm for 1.50"
18 gpm for 1.75"
20 gpm for 2.00"
You can see that a couple of sections will move a lot of fluid.

"Also, I read somewhere that at the engine speeds we are running, the OEM oil pump is circulating around 10 gallons per minute of oil. If that is true, my entire tank is circulated every 12 seconds. Which also means, absent of return from the scavenge system (or a temporary hold up of oil somewhere), the tank is "draining" over an inch per second."

At 6,000rpm the 11mm pump is moving 16.6 gallons per minute!

Because we modify OEM pumps with Verne Schumann's patented designs I have the oem stats on them, straight from various Subaru factory service manuals:
These stats are standardized at an oil temperature of 176F.

10mm 15010AA300, 02-07 WRX/STi ; LGT 2005-2009.
Marked as "10". 78mm Rotor Ring,
600 RPM -4.6L/min - 14 PSI
5,000 RPM - 47L/min - 43 PSI
85 psi relief

10 mm 15010AA320, 08-14 WRX Single AVCS And many more 08-12.
Marked "76", has 76 mm rotor.
600 RPM - 4.6L/min - 14 PSI
5,000 RPM - 47L/min - 43 PSI
85 psi Relief Valve

11mm 15010AA360 08+ STi Dual AVCS 10-12 LGT; WRX 17-20
Marked "78", has a 78mm rotor
600 RPM - 6.4L/min - 14 psi
6,000 RPM - 63L/min - 56.8 psi
78 psi Relief Valve

JDM 12mm 15010AA310
Marked "12", has a 78mm rotor.
600 RPM 6.5L/min - 14 psi
6,000 RPM - 59L/min - 85? psi (This 12mm data is not from a verified Subaru JDM FSM and is likely not accurate)

I make no claim that our modifications increase flow or pressure, they are for reliability and longevity. I haven't started selling them yet, but I do have a few out in cars on tracks and the street. More on that later.

IAG has a porting procedure for the 11mm pump that they claim flows higher than the JDM 12mm. The description is here:
https://www.iagperformance.com/iag-performance-stage-2-ej25-11mm-oil-pump-for-04-21-sti-06-14-wrx-05-12-lgt-04-13-fxt/

Their graphs:

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mk9KYJWIm9AphBrDNFbtkNLunt9xiutJhFaiTmQgay_WCgXA sm7_888DJ9Z_on4DLuvDf4lDOdnjGXQMi-Ba1_PxycUGrS91rio936mpVyqft1zTpLQqt15M0t3em7lDroKk guk0n2bx8TDtFFf6KwrEu6XOmWon36QTdZgag1hteAhSw5MLKS TSrExRIR_Zg?width=500&height=356&cropmode=none...https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mKUQKn6sW6lT3bzPI7PaPjWDNQZSwmXHmGK1jlFvGrGzcyLs FzOj65YGEpPdNvticytdVxyRZ1pEo5u3sHaAb2YvvHiOynLxQB WyELD29kRUtw3qMIIhnvo0iuDHqTiy8grM3U244A64Zz3EAGn5 HSgPpINVs1B40qhoN3vjDKTPIJCTp-TfoC4enxT5GzPYf?width=500&height=356&cropmode=none

The 818R has the short wide tank. the STI has a taller narrow tank. I have to remember to keep the 818 tank filled higher up. The 818R tank: 3 gallon capacity aluminum dry sump tank 7.5" diameter, 19" tall net. 22" overall including drain bung and filler cap.
I have the 3 gallon, but this 2 gallon image gives the idea:

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mo24MFqmsLKnP7M-ICDkBTTCSHMZrlysnKji-YOLhA6il_rsmzrVYIlhiqyBthp1IS2pY8JzGzcoVXPAq870yxY JHyMeYCA3WMm9ivmYqgdhHuhv3_4izt_hB92lLdEoi4e-yODD6uCdYKt1-2GSh2SfXZ4At2FoGpnvtscQA5nvFjUrp2cOA9Uw0CjUCIvn_?w idth=480&height=359&cropmode=none

Rob T

05-28-2022, 05:17 AM

Thanks for the information Gator. I really appreciate it. As I said before, you have been awesome supporting us with facts, development, and real world testing.

Bicyclops

05-28-2022, 01:00 PM

I knew that I held off buying my tank for more reason than not wanting to spend the money yet. Thanks for the info Gator. I've been thinking big, I see that I need to be thinking tall also.

Having only three sections of scavenge, I'm Y-ing the lines from my heads together. I've been wondering if the extra length of the right side line would be a problem. I'm not going to be tracking as much as some of y'all so it'll probably not cause problems is my guess.

As far as scavenge to pressure pump size goes, all the old radial aircraft engine manufacturers went 2:1. At A&P school I teach lubrication systems using, as one of my aids, a rear sump from a Wright 3350. That's a 55 liter air cooled engine! They list cruise oil consumption at 5.6 gph. Check the gas and fill it up with oil please. The pumps are huge. We teach that scavenge is harder to do because of expansion of hot oil and foaming. Sound familiar? For certification the FAA mandates that the scavenge capacity be sufficient to ensure that the sump doesn't overfill but they don't specify a ratio of pump sizes.

Ed Holyoke

Bicyclops

05-28-2022, 01:22 PM

Sgt.Gator

06-05-2022, 02:56 PM

I've been digging in really deep to oil pump issues. I found a couple of interesting nuggets:

1) The weird less than a second oil pressure glitches I now see in my data could be a normal characteristic. It's called Pressure Ripple. I never noticed on my gauges because it happens so fast, but if you have a capable datalogger you can capture it. Here's a chart from Melling Oil Pumps:
https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4moKGCD3b-9gqBHFDA1nJ8h3PJptDq_n0S8NzZNN0t4YI15Rl6Vtikrv2HgN iNW95ynpFgIC7wUIjHn46_5kLTcNJP45FELNMFSNjw-gnc6KmJELd78NDlaGLDnN-K_-5dlY7unV6GTt4IOxoy7ibu8F63zblGNZGzhfBnHaGE0Vjl4slR zvyVI1pyC8q3sRKm?width=794&height=577&cropmode=none

Does this partly explain my data? Probably not because it should happen constantly, not in 3 places on the track. And Melling is capturing very tiny increments of time. But it's something to keep in mind as I get more granular in my data logging. In short, I don't know if it has anything to do with my data.

More importantly:

2) Pump gears whether spur or georotor start cavitating around 5,000 rpm and seriously cavitate above 6,500rpm. For a dry sump system that is using a scavenge pump off the a/c ring of the crank pulley that means I was in serious scavenge cavitation every time I took it 6500rpm. And why when I short shifted under 6,000 it was ok.

AND it was also cavitating at my oem oil pump. A double whammy. Here's from a 14 year discussion over on NASIOC about 12mm oil pump issues:

KillerBee posted this dyno plot of 10-11-12 mm pumps. He is an advocate of using the 10mm pump in most situations of standard oem bearing clearances. Sometimes he monitors the FF 818 forum and is welcome to jump in here. :

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mMkewaV1oqxclrmwRCbsyKkvB-MX7pcHXxu3YkKHshU3vb8VBhzW_mQxeoQPTT7aMXv0dkk01S1U bGPZX0LlIPf2x5DoD1nEiTweqgLIAs9tucE9_8cD4Xw-VKLjCgvc8pVSmV7w0JrDm0Wn0Ls4EJeq4dFArsbS2m7BKP82mB Ef_7UkyG04qgbnsHpWuoqh5?width=727&height=867&cropmode=none

I kept scratching my head about why the 10mm flows better in his dyno chart above 5,800 rpm than the 11mm and 12mm.....it's counterintuitive. But now I think I know why.
A couple SAE papers explain that georotor pumps fall off of flow above 5,500 rpm, and especially above 6,000 rpm, and why the 12mm would be worse than the 10mm. The pumps start cavitating at those rpms. And the wider the pump gears, the worse it gets. Here's two screen shots of two pump charts, the only difference is the better flowing pump has 1.2mm narrower gear depth. Sorry for the quality and the second one is not in color:

It's from Gerotor Oil Pump Performance and Flow/Pressure Ripple Study, SAE Vol. 115, Section 3: JOURNAL OF ENGINES (2006), pp. 204-209 (6 pages). You can read it online for free at https://www.jstor.org/stable/44687297?read-now=1#page_scan_tab_contents?read-now=1
https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4m5svhqxun6gt4v0uncXSWXIjwOEuQukxiM6SKtBMPpZJw6x5 zABrvWr5EbVyDex1omPq59Fa-x-VatCxG7y4kcZrKxR6NArfBQg0R9s4OGGQSZDbAS0lzrj58zuFj utF8EKIeU9Tz-Y-xcA-TEBZ-KZoxX9qbjm6V1dbMN78-CFYRwibMTPj-xo-O5YxQ25EO?width=417&height=240&cropmode=none
https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4moN_yWxg_in6iI32JlnBuJO_qFUs0a4sYJuPsmbuejIyNjfv lU--6XvLyQC7VckDpP4Css4scetJ3JvVOHZafugYMCAK-alOgy74fciD3QY7dQBoAB6GkGhGotaQjDeujxxv6u4IIFmJBVx 3ftKyRpQQakvdk9vm6Qf9qJFTPwNB4BUq5cbErOSHKuHfjhlWa ?width=480&height=446&cropmode=none

In short, since the 11mm and 12mm are trying to suck more flow thru the same size inlet port pathway as the 10mm, they start cavitating sooner.

LS Engines have the same issues we have. Here's a chart from one of the engine builder forums or magazines. I have no way to verify the accuracy of the chart though, I don't think it's direct from Melling or any other manufacturer:

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4m65qwnmvCuozvcDkgJJDt2dwljOvkyXNJyct4yz40VCZabmn P35GD4K-E2W_Gl5Dh8_7s0O93xF5stAmYDyNrhzYJmQiJy9H4FTl9WErre IIRoWCgjp4zWgl5dZPDTTrJEgojtItkUKfG6JRkJ7BqbT0sRmJ wylZ3I-A3lrrLIwS9Fz3Fc1u8iAAxZ17tGfSb?width=998&height=680&cropmode=none

It's interesting to note how Subaru pumps move a LOT more gallons per minute than the LS V8 pumps do! Our 11mm pump moves 16.6 gallons/min @6,000rpm.

How do you push the onset of cavitation higher in the rpm range? Reducing the restriction of the inlet tube, the restriction of the inlet pickup in a wet sump, porting and port matching the inlet route all help. But another way is to crack open the bypass valve to feed higher psi oil into the inlet side of the pump. Yes it heats the oil, but it actually pushes the onset of low inlet pressure cavitation higher up the rpm....which might explain why Subaru reduced the relief valve pressure of the 11mm to 78psi from the 10mm 85psi relief.
I found this mentioned in a couple of places, including the LS chart. So people who shim their pumps to a higher pressure are actually making their high rpm flow worse.

I'm running our Colonel Red Racing modified 10mm pumps on both the STI and 818R. I have an AIM PDM32 on the 818R now which has massive datalogging capabilities. We intend to install the AIM PDM32 on the STI next fall too.
Given the capabilities I might run 3 oil pressure senders, one in a sandwich plate between filter and block, one in the stock location next to the crank sensor (where we get it now), and one at the rear passenger side top port. Over time that might give us clues about wear and impending failures. Maybe not the sandwich plate on the 818R because it's pretty low to the ground, but certainly on the STI it will work.

I never stop learning.....

jforand

06-08-2022, 10:12 PM

That is great stuff Gator and I am 100% on board with almost all of it. There are just a couple things I would mention:

First the pressure ripple issue. As you noted they are capturing serious small internals of time. I believe what you are seeing is the pulsing nature of a gear pump (style does not really matter). It is not a constant pressure device. With each passing cavity you get a pressure bump. The chart is tiny, but I tried this anyway. I counted roughly 50 spikes/vertical gridline or 0.1 of a sec. There are 8 - 0.1sec blocks represented for roughly 400 pressure spikes. In the lower right corner you see in red that the chart is a total of 43.33 total revolutions. If you divide 400/43 you get roughly 9, which would be the number of teeth (or lobes) on the pump if it were driven at crank speed as the Subi is. I think this lines up pretty dang close. I quickly looked at picks and found one of a gutted housing, but not the gears. I would have to go down and count them, but it is totally in that ballpark.

The final point would be cavitation. Everything said and noted is pretty spot on, especially about how to reduce cavitation. This is the point I would like to expand a bit and how I believe the High Speed Scavenge Kit is intended to function. In a full pipe, fully primed pump, flow scenario (like the pressurized delivery to the engine as everything in the post discusses) you are in danger of cavitation. It is hard to pull the viscous fluid through a relatively small port for the high flows. All very true. How do you reduce cavitation? lessen the restriction to flow on the suction side as both they and you indicated. What this really means is increase the net suction pressure. It must be maintained over the vapor pressure or the fluid will start to boil (cavitation). Remember you have to separate "boiling" from temperature alone. It is all about a respective energy state of the internal energy of the fluid (vapor pressure) relative to the pressure it is being exposed to. You can absolutely boil water at room temperature by placing it in a vacuum chamber. It has a given internal energy that is trying to boil it and the atmospheric pressure is preventing that. Drop the pressure enough and it boils without getting any hotter. Conversely, you can heat the water and raise the internal energy past that of atmospheric pressure and boil it that way (212 deg F). This is exactly why there are pressure caps on the cooling systems.

So I went down a rabbit hole there a bit, but the point I wanted to bring to the surface is you can effectively increase net positive suction pressure by reducing the strength of the vacuum being pulled....it is again all relative. So in the high speed kit the scavenge sections are never intended to run with full pipe, full primed (zero air) flow. The need to pull a hard moving fluid up through the 3 feet of tubing is removed as massive amounts of air are making the trip all the time. If you allow air to freely rush up the tubing and through the gear pump at whatever speed it desires it will effectively wash out the majority of the suction vacuum (relative to what you are seeing on full flow supply pumps in your post) resulting in the relative raising of the suction pressure and prevent cavitation. In order to cavitate the scavenge sections you would need to run the pump magnitudes faster than the kit drives it (1-1.2 times the crank speed) and/or greatly reduce the flow capability of the plumping by drastically reducing tubing diameter or the like. In the subi kit I firmly believe that its design premise is substantially different than all traditional dry sump kits. It needs to pull very far up hill and it accomplishes that by rapid airflow that carries a heavy oil spray within it, but definitely not full flow. This results in significantly less power to run the pump and that is why they can get away with a micro V belt. If you were to fill the engine and create full pipe/full primed flow at RPM the pump would require more power than the belt could provide/transfer and it would slip and shred the micro V belt. This is precisely why the HTD and other cogged drives exist. If you want to experience the difference if drive power from wetted gears to full flow you need only to manually prime an old V8 rebuild with a drill motor down the distributor passage. It spins nice and easy until it clears all the air out and then it will twist your wrist off when it primes if the drill is a strong one. Alarmingly, this is at drill RPM (say maybe 400-500rpm), take that to 6000 rpm and it goes up dramatically! The subi kit is designed to scavenge in the 'oil spray' or 'heavy aerosol' realm. If the pump was on the pan at the bottom then you could slow it down and the oil would have no choice but to go up (as a heavy aerosol or full flow) as it would immediately be on the pressure side of the gears (essentially acting as a one way check valve). The physical state of the flow would be dependent on the amount and speed of air coupled with the plumbing length and diameter, as well as, the fluid itself. With the pump up top the 'check valve' or more precisely the gears are very far up stream. you can draw oil up in slugs and it can run back down the tube walls to the crank case if the motive force (air flow) is not high enough. It just gurgles and never gets to the pressure side of the gears were it is physically prevented from back flowing.

Sgt.Gator

10-21-2022, 04:32 PM

Not specific to the 818 but still Subaru Engine/trans:
The Colonel Red Racing Team took another podium at the 2022 Cascade Festival of Endurance 8 Hour race at Portland International Raceway. I teamed up with our own 818 forum team, Retro Racing, to share drivers and crew. Retro brought their K swapped Miatas and a K swapped RX7. They had problems with their Honda K motors, but my Subaru STI ran great; which has to be a first in racing history!
Oil Temps, Oil Pressure, Coolant Temps were all at or below "normal". Only the rear diff got a bit hot and was a concern at 240 to a max of 250 degrees. Someday I will put a diff cooler on it.
We made it the full 8 hours to finish 3rd in class. There's a lot more write up to come but here's a short video at the race end when I pulled into the pits:
https://youtu.be/BvYlBfevcU4

Sgt.Gator

10-21-2022, 04:48 PM

Some drivers love driving the night sessions, others hate it. You have to have confidence you know where the turn entry is even though you can't see it in the unlit portions of the track. If you've never been endurance racing, last lap to the checkered flag, the crews come across pit lane to the wall to wave to the finishers.

https://youtu.be/7i0eUyU3b20

Rob T

10-22-2022, 06:02 AM

Thanks for the video Gator. Glad to see you back on the track. I know you are very familiar with that track, but night racing adds a whole level of risk to the sport. I can't imagine driving in the dark at 100+ mph. It's challenging enough at 55 on roads I know. It's a real testament to your skill.

Sgt.Gator

04-04-2023, 01:07 PM

The 818R is repaired, dynoed, and ready to go again. It will be tested throughout the summer with the intent of racing the 2-4-8 hour Cascade Enduro next October at Portland International.
I'm looking forward to hitting the track with it again.
This year I also will be racing a Subaru BRZ in T4 trim and I still have the STI as a backup.
Now if it would just quit snowing here in Central Oregon!

Rob T

04-05-2023, 05:36 AM

Good News, Gator. There is a lot of room on the tracks in the SE and we have been going since February. Just saying....

Sgt.Gator

06-15-2023, 04:15 PM

I'm heading to PIR this weekend in the 818. The plan is to do 2 x Sprint Races and 1 x Mini Enduro (1 hour).

Meanwhile last weekend I raced the STI at Pacific Raceways. This video is qualifying at Pacific Raceways for the Enduro in the Rain. My Subaru of Bend STI excels at rain racing when I have my Continental/Hoosier Wets mounted. I out qualified cars/drivers that I can never beat in the Group 4 race and the Group 8 Enduro in dry conditions, including cars in classes much faster than mine.
Earlier I qualified 2nd in the Group 4 qualifier. Only Igor Levine in his yellow Viper beat me there. This video is the Group 8 Enduro qualifier where I ended up 3rd behind Igor again and Todd Clarke in his BMW M3.
Lap 5 was my fast lap despite missing a shift at turn 6. And I frequently miss shift at turn 9, going from 3rd to 6th. It's something about the g force and my subconscious telling me not to go from 3rd to 2nd. I'm working on nailing turn 9 since it's the most important corner on the race track.
Unfortunately the rain stopped before the afternoon races and the SST- GT1 -SPM cars were back to their usual sports in front of me in my ST class trim.

https://youtu.be/w4NBCqutC3Q

Sgt.Gator

06-22-2023, 10:57 AM

I took the 818R to PIR for racing in the ICSSC in sprint and the 1 hiour mini enduro. There is very good news and a problem that is pretty easily solved.

The good news: All my temps were excellent. Oil pressure was fine.
The problem was fuel pressure. Once the fuel cell got down 1/2 full I had fuel pressure cut outs on the two left turns. This was the first time I had the car on track and pushed hard since installing the fuel cell. The second half of the 1 hour enduro I basically had to coast around Turns 2 and 6 to keep the engine from cutting out.
I called Arcflash and discussed it with my tuner Joshua Murray. He realized where I screwed up on the fuel cell installation. When I ordered the cell from Fuel Safe I specified the collector box be placed in the center back. However I forgot that what they consider center back is not the way we installed the tank. We rotated it 90 degrees to fit in in the passenger seat space, so the collector box and pickup are now on one side of the tank!
The fix is to remove the plate and reposition the collector box. We are also going to run the fuel return line into the collector box, we think it now just empties into the main part of the tank.

Here's a pic from the AIM datalogger. These are the Average (Green), Low (Blue) and High (Red):

186153

The low oil pressure of 10.9 psi was during the mandatory pit stop 1/2 way thru the enduro.

I'm so happy that all the cooling and oil pressure problems are behind me!

Sgt.Gator

07-25-2023, 02:09 AM

We modified the fuel cell to fix the lack of fuel in left turns. The collector box was not in the middle back, but in the middle left! We moved it to the rear of the cell and modified the fuel pressure regulator return so that it dumps back into the collector box. It had been setup to just dump into the general middle of the fuel cell. A short piece of submersible hose fixed that. Fuel issue fixed.

We had the 818R at Pacific Raceways July 15 to race in the 1 hour mini enduro. During qualifying I had a bad shake in the steering wheel with slicks on the car so had to switch to my Toyo R1R street tires for the enduro. The shake was gone and still great fun even though the 200TW tires are much slower than slicks. I did manage to get the hard charger designation for most places gained. The good news is the temps and pressures are under full control, see the pic from the AIM data.

187780

This weekend is three days of racing at Qlispe, the former Spokane County Raceway, with my Canadian friends from Retro Racing. Qlispe has the longest straight in the NW, so I should find the 818's terminal velocity. I'll turn up the boost a bit and back on slicks. 3 days of racing!🏁

Sgt.Gator

07-30-2023, 12:55 AM

Two days into the 3 day weekend and it 's going well for the 818. Two wins in the Group 1 SPM-Pro3 group, and a win in the MEO class of the 1 hour Enduro:

Friday Group 1 Race
188005

Saturday Group 1 Race
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More importantly for the 818 builders here, my temps were excellent. Many cars were dropping out with heat issues from the 90 degree air and 140 degree track surface temps. Even our own Retro Racing had to drop their K24 Turbo Miata out of the afternoon's races because of the heat. He vows revenge on Sunday.
In contrast my Water temp (ECU ECT); Oil Temp (ECU OIL T); and Trans Temp were great. The Oil and Water temps never broke 200 degrees, and the Trans Temp was just over 206. This snapshot of my Aim data is 2/3 of the thru a 1 hour race in that heat:

188006

One more race in Group 1 tomorrow.

Santiago

07-31-2023, 11:03 AM

Woop-Woop!! That is just awesome to hear! Well done on the race front - and just fantastic news on the temp front. Hard work paying off.

Dave 53

07-31-2023, 08:03 PM

Congratulations!!!

Did you log intake air temp?

Just got my engine tuned today and the tuner said air intake temp is what is holding me back from any more power.

Sgt.Gator

08-01-2023, 11:20 AM

Congratulations!!!

Did you log intake air temp?

Just got my engine tuned today and the tuner said air intake temp is what is holding me back from any more power.

Got it. This was my fastest lap in the Enduro race. I have a speed density tune so this reading is post FMIC about a foot from the throttle body. Considering the track temp was 142 I think the FMIC is doing a good job.

188136

Dave 53

08-01-2023, 06:38 PM

Yes, the FMIC seems to be doing a great job. Can you share some pictures?

I have the standard 818 AWIC. Great on street, but not enough on track. I'm in the 170 degree range on a 90 degree day (don't know track temp). My tuner (Travis, Snail Performance, Auburn CA) won't give me a black and white go into limp mode temperature, and he has tuned in safety, but I think I'm touching it and looking for a solution other than slowing down.

And pictures of your radiator ducting that you alluded to in another post.

lance corsi

08-01-2023, 07:00 PM

Dave and Gator, what size ballast tank are you running for your awic?

Dave 53

08-01-2023, 11:08 PM

I work on ships, so a ballast tank has a different meaning for me.

Are you suggesting having the water make a stop in a separate tank?

lance corsi

08-02-2023, 05:14 AM

Just asking, if using an awic, how large is your water tank? My book says that in order to prevent premature heat soak, the water tank should be sized according to amount of wot. May not be practical for racing but just asking. If you’re using an air to air intercooler, never mind.

Hobby Racer

08-02-2023, 07:21 AM

Just my $0.02

I work on ships, so a ballast tank has a different meaning for me.
Are you suggesting having the water make a stop in a separate tank?

Yes, a separate tank to hold additional cooled water after the AWIC radiator. The idea being a larger mass of water takes longer to heat soak. However, if your AWIC radiator is sufficiently large and or efficient, you do not need a ballast tank as the water exiting the radiator is near ambient temp and the holding tank is just extra weight.

Just asking, if using an awic, how large is your water tank? My book says that in order to prevent premature heat soak, the water tank should be sized according to amount of wot. May not be practical for racing but just asking. If you’re using an air to air intercooler, never mind.

I do not run a separate ballast tank. Just the water in the AWIC, radiator and lines.

Sgt.Gator

08-02-2023, 10:01 AM

Dave I'll post some pics of the radiator and FMIC soon.
Lance, I run a FMIC. Much simpler and more efficient for road racing. Completely impractical if you have doors though!

Sgt.Gator

08-02-2023, 10:43 AM

Sunday was our last race of the weekend in SPM. I was looking forward to Jeff running the Retro Racing RX7 in the SPM race and he even qualified with the fastest closed wheel time of all cars over the whole weekend. But Retro chose not to come out in the afternoon heat, their RX7 is vying for the championship in a different class so they are saving it for the last races in that series.
Retros RX7:
188178

The race only had 2 SPM cars, myself and a BMW E46. But Group 1 also includes Pro3 a mostly PacNW regional class of spec BMW E30s, and we had 24 of them. Imagine a Spec Miata field with more speed and power! Their Pro3 class has a reputation of aggressive driving, contact, and a bit of red mist attitude. They were to show that all again.
When we start in Group1 they split the start so the SPM cars are about 10 seconds in front of the Pro3 cars. Otherwise I wouldn't race in SPM!

I qualified P2 next to the E46 in P1. The reason for P2 was my old Hoosier tire had failed internally and I had a huge bulge under the tread in the qualifying session, I only did the first lap then pulled back into the paddock. I knew something was very wrong.

At the green flag I got the jump and went into the lead, however in classic Pro3 fashion somehow one of them must have been bumped/clipped going down the front straight and hit the wall. That brought out the pace car for several laps. On the restart I again stayed in front but I screwed up Turn 4 and lost too much speed. The other SPM car passed me and now because of the restart the Pro3 cars are right on me, one of them passed me and all the rest are right on my tail. One of them too much on my tail! The Pro3 guys have stout front and rear bumpers and they use them on each other to nudge. Well my818 has no rear bumper but the Pro3 guy on my tail is so used to "nudging" he tried it on me, 3 times going around Turn 8. The first two were just touches I could feel, but the third was aggressive and smashed my rear fiberglass, sending the rear mesh screen flying and jamming a chunk of fiberglass into my shifter. Amazingly I could still shift ok. The offending driver knew he had gone way too far with his driving and immediately drops off to finish 8th. He normally podiums. In the melee I couldn't see for sure who had hit me, but unfortunately for him I run my #2 Video Vbox camera facing rearwards and captured the entire thing. The race stewards reviewed the video and promptly assessed him a fine for Avoidable Contact.

I went on to repass the E46 in the next lap, setting the fast lap of the race at the same time.

188176188177188175

3 days, 4 races, 4 wins. I'm putting together a video compilation of the weekend I'll post up here in a few days.

In the meantime I have to fix the damage and come up with better protection around my shift mechanism and tranny. I'm lucky he didn't smash the shifter so badly that it could have trashed the tranny internally. In the next post I'll show the damage and what I've done so far towards my new rear end. I'm not going to replace the fiberglass, I like the new 'style" bodywork, and it may even be faster!

Sgt.Gator

08-02-2023, 11:37 AM

The damage:

188184188185188186188187188188

Sgt.Gator

08-02-2023, 11:38 AM

The damage cut away, and planning the new rear end protection. Your thoughts on how to protect the shifter/tranny/tranny cooler pump are welcome!

188189188190

Hobby Racer

08-02-2023, 03:40 PM

The damage:

188184188185188186188187188188

Damm! Sorry about the damage. It's always a bummer when someone else breaks your toys! ;)

Sgt.Gator

08-03-2023, 01:05 AM

Dave 53 here's my hood vents, partial view of the FMIC piping, and radiator ducting:
188227188228188229188230

Sgt.Gator

08-03-2023, 01:08 AM

And here's my FMIC - Radiator - Ducting looking thru the grill opening in the front:

188235188231188232188233188234

Dave 53

08-03-2023, 11:21 AM

Does the multiple feet of intake pipe cause any throttle response lag?

Last night, I finished sealing up my radiator ducting. Not as inspiring as your job! But, I'm very happy with it. Except I used a bit of Gorilla duct tape. I'm rethinking Gorilla tape after seeing your pictures.

Sgt.Gator

08-03-2023, 02:43 PM

The gorilla duct tape is probably better than this super thin aluminum tape. Mine is torn in several places and needs to be replaced.

On the lag, it's negligible to where it's not the slightest factor. In road racing you are almost always at 4,000 + rpm so there's no long wait for the turbo to spool and the line to pressurize. As I approach the apex, or clipping point, which may be different from the geometrical apex, I'm already cracking the throttle open. Post apex by the time the car has straightened out enough to go full throttle at the exit the turbo is fully engaged and the the lines are at full pressure. If I hit the throttle too soon while still doing some lateral Gs the tail will walk out into a spin in a heartbeat. There's no more power needed.
Some folks say the long IC pipes are a good thing, they turn the air charge into a kind of "spring" that makes like easier on the blow off valve and throttle. I haven't spent much time researching that idea.

Sgt.Gator

08-07-2023, 11:31 AM

I welded a steel cage behind the rear end and transmission. The three horizontal bars are aluminum tube bolted to the steel cage. The theory being they will crush a bit in a "hard nudge", and are very easy to replace. I'm sticking with the rear bumper cut style, but I'm probably going to fully flat bottom it with a diffuser. After further review of the 818R aero I don't think my rea wing is doing a dang thing besides creating drag. I'll try it with and without the rear wing at PIR this coming weekend.

188442

Ready to race again this weekend at Portland International!

Hobby Racer

08-07-2023, 06:31 PM

... After further review of the 818R aero I don't think my rea wing is doing a dang thing besides creating drag. I'll try it with and without the rear wing at PIR this coming weekend.

Very interested in your findings! My wing creates huge drag down the straights at Watkins Glen.

Rob T

08-08-2023, 05:47 AM

Gator/Hobby: Sorry for the Hijack, but I'm interested in your wing set ups. I am running mine "flat", or at least as close to zero angle as I can figure with the complex shape. At some point I did these calculations for the GTC-300 wing. AOA: angle of attack. Top Row is speed in mph. Then downforce, drag, and the ratio of the two. Kind of a funky excel paste....

NEWTONS Pounds force
DOWNFORCE DOWNFORCE
AOA 80 100 120 AOA 80 100 120
0 672.5 1,058.0 1,533.9 0 151.2 237.8 344.8
5 816.6 1,286.9 1,864.4 5 183.6 289.3 419.1
10 897.6 1,406.0 2,036.2 10 201.8 316.1 457.7
12 903.5 1,417.8 2,049.4 12 203.1 318.7 460.7

DRAG 80 100 120 DRAG 80 100 120
0 76.2 120.0 174.4 0 17.1 27.0 39.2
5 100.3 158.3 230.3 5 22.5 35.6 51.8
10 125.3 197.4 286.9 10 28.2 44.4 64.5
12 134.3 211.6 307.5 12 30.2 47.6 69.1

Down/Drag 80 100 120 Down/Drag 80 100 120
0 8.8 8.8 8.8 0 8.8 8.8 8.8
5 8.1 8.1 8.1 5 8.1 8.1 8.1
10 7.2 7.1 7.1 10 7.2 7.1 7.1
12 6.7 6.7 6.7 12 6.7 6.7 6.7

Sgt.Gator

08-09-2023, 12:11 PM

The Gen 1 Nose had an option to cut out "brake ducts". The original builder of my car had done that. We installed real front brake ducts that don't utilize the FF duct holes, for several reasons.
In looking closer at my aero I realized those Gen 1 holes must be creating big time drag. They open into a space in front of the tires that has no real direct flow towards the brakes, the aluminum fender liner mostly obstructs flow. Looking at the tire rubber and bug strikes on the outside edge was interesting:

188564

I decided to blank off these holes:

188565

Next race at Portland International this weekend.

Rob T

08-10-2023, 05:41 AM

Gator: I actually did duct air to my brakes from those holes, but I am interested to see what your changes do. Did you decide what you are going to do with your wing for sure? Take it off or change the AOA?

Sgt.Gator

08-10-2023, 11:51 PM

Rob I've adjusted the wing AOA (the center flat section) as close to 0 as I can get. It's still about 3 degrees. My wing is super easy to quick change so I'll run the first morning Qualifying session wing on, the afternoon Race wing on. Then late afternoon is Qualifying for the Sunday morning Enduro, for that I'll take the wing off. The car should be slower in the late afternoon heat, but if I'm faster I'll leave the wing off for the Sunday morning 1 hour enduro.
After the Enduro I have a qualifying session for the final Sprint race, then the race itself. I'll probably split those two with a wing on and wing off just to verify what I'm seeing. Of course all these plans could go out the window too based on results and circumstances.

I think to get the wing to actually have an effect it needs to be a foot higher and and a lot wider for clean air. My halo cage has to be extremely disruptive, the regular R roll bar is bad enough. The problem with going wider wing is not in the rules (I'm basically in an unlimited class) but rather running into the wing while working around the car. It would have to be easy to remove too. If I go that route I'll get a big Wang from 9 Lives Racing.

However I think there is a lot more to be gained for a lot less $$$ by optimizing the flat floor. We are lucky to already have a nearly flat floor. It shouldn't be too hard or expensive do a better splitter, flat floor the engine area, and a diffuser. Done right the flat floor can create enormous downforce without a big drag penalty.

Hobby Racer

08-11-2023, 08:57 AM

Sgt.Gator

08-20-2023, 01:51 AM

Very interested to see the wing vs no wing effect. I have been hesitant to run without the rear wing for fear of losing the rear end in the high speed turns at Watkins Glen. I can run triple digit speeds in some of the corners.

I ran the Group 1 Qualifying in the morning, and the Race right after lunch, with the wing. Late in the day at 4Pm I did the Enduro Qualifying without the wing. It wasn't apples to aples because the track and air were pretty cool in the morning, but by 4 PM it was over 90 (and Sunday hit 102). So naturally the late afternoon would be slightly slower because of the heat.

My fastest lap times were almost the same, but how I got there was quite different. With the wing I was hitting about 117 on the front straight and 125 on the back straight. Without the wing I was 119 Front and 128 back. There was little appreciable difference in speed until about 85 mph, then the wingless setup would accelerate 1-2-3 mph faster on up to the brake zone. Score 1 without the wing.

Mid speed corners of 60-70 mph and high speed corners 70-90 mph the winged car was faster by 2-3 mph.

Low speed corners of 35-50 mph the wingless was very slightly faster. I assume because of not having the weight of the wing up in the air at the tail of the car. Not enough to really matter.

Braking: The car was significantly more confidence inspiring with the wing. I could brake later and harder without the the tail moving around on me.

All in the winged car was about 1/2 second faster than the wingless car. Except the wingless car was running on a much hotter track. This mirrors the findings from a post further back in this thread where I came to the same conclusions on the same track. The question becomes what would happen if the wingless car had been running in the cool air and the winged car was in the heat? That will have to be answered at a much later date.

Because in the Sunday morning Enduro the transmission came apart! I had done 30 mins and come in for my mandatory 60 second pit stop. On exiting pit lane on to the track doing about 40mph I hit the accelerator and BANG. The case cracked. In the pic you can see a crooked black line. That's not a drawing of a line, it's the actual crack.
189097

My first thought was weak 5 speed case. Then I realized that when the Pro3 hit me in the tail at the last race it probably did internal damage that took an hour or so of racing to finally blow apart. I haven't pulled the AIM data to look at the logged trans temps yet, but from the smell of the oil I'm sure it cooked from some internal friction. I'll pull the data soon and have a look.

Meanwhile I'm busy getting my STI up to track ready for the last sprint race weekend of the season at The Ridge in Shelton WA this coming weekend.

Hobby Racer

08-20-2023, 06:08 AM

Dave 53

08-20-2023, 11:08 AM

Bummer about the transmission. Did it make any noises before it blew up? I have a 5 speed case you can have if we can figure out how to get it to you from Danville CA.

Rob T

08-20-2023, 12:21 PM

Gator: Sorry about the 5MT. I am very interested in your wing work. I have had a few issues with snap oversteer (maybe my slow reaction or wet track) accelerating out of long sweepers. I also may not be keeping the engine in the proper RPM range and getting hammered when the turbo boosts. But....directionally, the wing would seem to help, both from the down force and the side plates.

Can you describe, a bit more, your comments about braking and being more confidence inspiring? What type of movement did you feel without the wing.

Just to confirm, were you running a zero angle of attack? I know the wing will still provide downforce because of its complex shape.

Sgt.Gator

08-20-2023, 12:58 PM

Good information about the aero effects. BTW, were you running the rear diffusor during those tests? How about the front splitter, any differences between winged and no wing runs?

Sorry about the 5MT. Are you planning to stick with the 5 speed or swap to a 6MT?

Front splitter stayed the same. No rear diffuser. From the firewall back it is open. Over the winter I'm looking at full flat bottom with a diffuser. I'm reluctant because I flat-bottomed the STI which really effected the underhood and underfloor temps negatively. I've spent so much time getting all the temps under control in the 818R I don't want to screw that up.
I'm also working my way thru a suspension course that looks like I need to make some changes in my spring rates. More on that later.

Bummer about the transmission. Did it make any noises before it blew up? I have a 5 speed case you can have if we can figure out how to get it to you from Danville CA.
Thanks for the offer. No noises. But between the electric fuel pump next to me, the oil and trans cooler fans, and the trans cooler pump, the exhaust, and the intake up by my right ear, it would have to be exceptionally loud to hear it.
I have a spare LGT core and Retro has a spare LGT core they aren't using anymore with their K24 swap, so I'm covered, thanks.

Regarding gearing, there was a shining moment last weekend when I had my best race start ever. I qualified 5th in the SPM class. As we come on to the front straight I can't see the Start/Finish stand so I move a little right so I can see the green flag drop:

https://youtu.be/xniIZZ94X9o

From 5th to 1st at the start finish line! Eventually P1 & P2 pass me and I end up in a nose to tail race with Pete Bristow in the #68 E46. We had a great race, I really like racing with him. I held him and the P3 & P4 cars off to take 3rd.
Clearly I have the trans gearing and the power level right. Now I need to develop the suspension and downforce.

FFRWRX

08-20-2023, 07:00 PM

You really leave them in the dust on the straights!

Sgt.Gator

09-28-2023, 05:53 PM

The ring & pinion were trashed! When they let go it cracked the case. Thanks to Retro Racing I have their Type RA 5 speed installed and ready to hit the track this weekend. To get the old tranny out we had to cut away my bash bars, which have now been greatly simplified. The tranny cooler is all connected and ready to test. The filter on the cooler line saved the cooler and pump from the debris destroying them.
At the same time I took the opportunity redo the spring rates. I've been working thru a couple of suspension courses and came to the conclusion that my roll couple and front spring hertz was way off. I've now swapped the front springs for 900 lb ones. 700 rear. I'll be testing the new setup at ORP this Saturday. Frankly it sounds nuts but that's what the spreadsheet suggests. Actually more than that!
IF all goes well I may be racing it at the 2-4-8 hour Cascade Enduro at PIR on Oct 14th. I'll be paddocked there with Retro but it appears their 818K24 is not yet ready to race, they will have their K24Miata. If it's raining like it often does in Portland in October I'll take the STI.

190593190594190595190596190598

Sgt.Gator

10-03-2023, 12:41 AM

The 818 ran very well at ORP. The new to me trans shifted great although I have to consciously make the 4-5 shift because it's pretty easy to go 4-3 instead. I never money shifted it but I can see how it could happen.
The 900LB front springs seemed to tame the snap mid corner oversteer. It will still try to spin if I'm not judicious with the throttle, but I was able to catch the beginning of the spins and straighten it out without exiting the track surface. So my springs are Front 900lbs, Rear 700lbs.
Logged temps were great. The Trans, Coolant, and Oil were all in the 170-190 range. It was a cool day with 60 degree air and 100 degree track temps.
We also did tire pyrometer testing on the suspension setup. I never got the R7s up to their Hoosier recommended 180-200 degree window range. And the inside of the front and rear right side tires was running a little too hot compared to the middle and outside. I probably won't make any changes to the camber until next year, I'll go with the way it is setup for the Cascade Enduro in 2 weeks. We'll do some tire temp testing there during the practice session.
It's so nice not to be worrying about overheating the engine and the transmission anymore. Now I can actually do some race suspension and tire tuning.
190791.....190792

My friend Jack had this issue in his BMW. He was going up Valkyrie Hill when both sides of his seat bracket broke and rocked him back! Jack is over 70 years old and weighs maybe 145 lbs, so it's not like he overpowered the brackets. I've never seen this failure before:

190793......190794

Hobby Racer

10-03-2023, 07:56 AM

I've never seen a seat bracket beak like that before. Must be metal fatigue from years of lateral G's flexing it ever so slightly.

Dave 53

10-03-2023, 12:29 PM

Glad to hear you had a good day at the track. I've forgotten what that feels like. Wanting to make it out to Thunderhill on Monday, but my The Driveshaft Shop axles still haven't shipped, so I'm losing hope.

I too am still getting use to the 6 speed. I will second how deliberate that 4 - 5 shift has to be.

I have done a money shift, but it was easy enough to immediately get the clutch in. But, it slipped into 3rd gear no problem. And I also had 2 cases where I thought it was in 5th, but it wasn't fully in 5th and popped back out. The gear change became very deliberate after those 3 events. After, I also adjusted my linkage for maximum left / right throw to further differentiate 3rd from 5th.

I'm told the 6 speed can be driven without a reverse lockout, but having it makes a huge difference in the 4 - 5 shift. My reverse lock-out next to my knee isn't spring loaded, so I have to push it back in to lock out reverse. You can see me double checking it in the video.

The video doesn't do justice to how deliberate the movement has to be. Find neutral, full movement to the right, up and make sure 5th is fully engaged. I'm assuming over time it will become second nature.

My next 4 -5 shift later in this lap broke the axle.

https://youtu.be/iBjhbFzsT-4

Sgt.Gator

10-03-2023, 02:01 PM

Dave, I can't see your video. It says Video unavailable. This video is private.

Dave 53

10-03-2023, 03:08 PM

Dave, I can't see your video. It says Video unavailable. This video is private.

Public now.

I was so hyper aware of those 4 - 5 shifts and noted it in this video after seeing it. Just made me think of it when you mentioned it.

And I finally figured out how my video editing software works! Guess I'm still learning YouTube.

Wish a kept the evidence of my money shift and ineffective popping out of 5th gear shifts, but I deleted them out of embarrassment and to free up memory space.

Rob T

10-04-2023, 06:05 AM

I wasted a whole track day before I put the reverse lockout on my "new" 6 speed. It was impossible to reliably find and stay in 5th gear. To be extra confident of the lock out, mine is actuated by a locking T-handle on the left side of the driver's cockpit. It locks in both positions with a twist and provides visual reference for what position it's in.

Sgt.Gator

10-04-2023, 11:35 AM

Just to clarify for readers here, I'm running the 5 speed tranny. The one I have in here now is a type RA with the male stub CV axles and a LSD.

Sgt.Gator

10-05-2023, 03:49 PM

Falling under the heading, the mystery that will not be solved....We are prepping the STI for the Cascade Enduro in case the weather turns nasty. (If it's great weather we are taking the 818R). All year we've had issues with cyl misfire codes in the STI. In the past the codes were caused by over winter gas + Boostane fouling the sparkplugs. So every spring we swap in new plugs. But this year we kept getting cyl misfire cels. We swapped in new plugs again in June but I got Cyl3 cel a couple of weeks ago at The Ridge. We also do compression checks after almost every race. So we pulled the plugs and checked the compression, it's fine. New plugs again. But this time we noticed this:
190867

WTF!?! Who "fixed" a failing coil connector with a zip tie? No one knows. It's possibly been there a long time, you don't have to disconnect the plug to pull the coils and do compression and plug swaps. And the connector looks toasted. It might be heat from the downpipe, or it might be the coil is going bad.

iWire has a blog post about using zip ties to "fix" a failed connector and a YouTube on how to replace it. https://iwireusa.com/blogs/iwire-university/plug-spotlight-coil-pack-plugs

The fix: We've ordered iWire connector replacements, new coils, and new plugs for all 4 cylinders.

lpmagruder

10-06-2023, 09:32 AM

I'm guilty of doing the exact thing on my 03. I ordered a replacement harness section the day I zip tied it. I think it only took me 2 years to complete the repair, mostly because I had the motor out for other reasons :-).

Dave 53

10-06-2023, 02:17 PM

I was unaware of the iWire fix until now. Thanks Sgt.Gator.

I had a zip tie. It seemed ready to fall off and temporary. Then I made a baling wire repair that I consider permanent. I'll even argue that it is more robust than the plastic clip.

Seems like after the zip tie was invented, everyone forgot about baling wire.

The main advantage is I can truly say my car is held together with baling wire and duct tape.

Sgt.Gator

10-07-2023, 01:19 PM

My coil connector harness wires are also a not so good repair probably at the same time as the zip tie fix. The wires are getting brittle. So we are cutting them out farther upstream in the harness and replacing them with better ones.

Sgt.Gator

10-24-2023, 05:05 PM

Due to the forecast weather conditions we took the STI instead of the 818R to the 2-4-8 Hour Cascade Enduro.

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/394582504_670792411811086_1944091830188465485_n.jp g?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=XGgv9JAdoFsAX975cVy&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=00_AfDYZ0yCpu42e-zw-0kqbcwaXD4aPTcoJ5R4BapC7Xos_g&oe=653D28FB

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We won First Place in our class in the 8 Hour Enduro at PIR. Two years in a row we have finished the entire 8 hour race and won our class. Like last year our main competitor's car broke down after they finished the 4 hour. Unlike every other year it finally rained. What a difference that made! Cars, some very, very, fast ones that had been lapping us all day weren't able to handle the rain. For 2 hours not a single car passed us, and we passed a bunch of them, including the Saker several times. And we stayed on slicks. It's a racing memory I'll have forever.
Thanks to Subaru of Bend for your support!
Retro Racing it was great partnering with you again in the paddock.
And thanks to Arcflash for your fabrication support and tuning.

Sgt.Gator

10-24-2023, 05:12 PM

For mid engine Subaru power folks: We raced against a Saker that came down from Canada. It has a 2L EJ with 285 HP. Sequential trans. Pretty dang fast on old tires. I'd like to see it on fresh A7s. He won the overall race. But it was sure fun passing him in the rain!
BTW, wet sump. Baffled, with a custom wet sump pan that is extra wide extensions on both sides. Possible because the headers go straight back. I'm still amazed he hasn't blown the engine though. He says oil pressure is never a problem...

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Rob T

10-25-2023, 05:34 AM

Congratulations Gator. I just wish you weren't out on the left coast so we could see you "live" at some events in the East. You are an inspiration to me, and I am sure many others. You and your team have also spearheaded many of the innovations that keep the rest of us on the track.

Sgt.Gator

12-08-2023, 06:01 PM

I did a Flatirons Tuning podcast/YouTube interview on Winning Endurance Races in a Subaru.
I hope it helps some of y'all. Let me know!

https://youtu.be/0rqKHOWIEgY?si=0jw8Hjzqu1IX57aG

idf

12-09-2023, 11:45 AM

Nicely done and lots of useful info.

lance corsi

12-10-2023, 08:37 AM

Lots of wisdom there. Thanks for sharing, Gator!

Dave 53

12-10-2023, 12:49 PM

Looking forward to listening over the next few days.

Sgt.Gator

03-20-2024, 11:18 PM

I am selling my 818R race car. Located in Bend Oregon. Raced in ICSCC events.$25K or best offer.

I'm selling all my race cars, Subaru STI, 818R, Palatov D4, Subaru BRZ ready to race in T4. Also a Ram 3500 and enclosed trailer.
Ya'll know the ups and downs of this car. So I figured I'd start here. If it doesn't sell in a couple of months I'll advertise it more widely.

Why?
Feb 8th I was skiing on Mt. Bachelor with my wife and old friends. I remember getting on the lift to go up, my next memory is waking up in St. Charles hospital ER with my wife trying to explain what happened. In between I apparently had a near fatal heart failure. We were coming down the slope and I just keeled over. Janet saw me go down and tried to flip me over but was unable. Luckily an off duty paramedic and his wife were also coming down just above me and stopped to help. He flipped me over and started CPR in the snow . Soon Ski Patrol arrived and for the next 20 minutes they took turns doing CPR and shocking me with their portable AED device. They got my heart going again and eventually onto the Life Flight helicopter. I spent 18 days in MICU. Tried to go home but that didn't stick. Another week in MICU. I'm back at home again but my recovery is very slow. I can only walk about 30 feet and that's with oxygen. There is 0% chance I'll drive any kind of car on a track in 2024. Competitive racing is probably done permanently. If I do any racing it will be all arrive & drive.

My contact but only if you're serious. I have a hard time concentrating for more than 30 mins a day. Email is the best but don't be surprised if it takes a few days for me to respond.
503-381-5860
ColRedRacing@gmail.com

driveslikejehu

03-21-2024, 07:53 AM

Sorry to hear this... Best wishes going forward.
I was hospitalized for emergency surgery this past fall; it's not easy, and it's slow.
Thanks for all your contributions thus far.

blomb11

03-21-2024, 09:01 AM

So sorry to hear this :( hope your recovery goes well!

Hobby Racer

03-21-2024, 12:28 PM

Let me add my best wishes for your recovery. Sad to see another racer leave, but glad to see you are alive!

I'll spread the word about your cars and try to drum up interest.

Bicyclops

03-21-2024, 01:24 PM

Gator,

Thank you for all your contributions to this community. Your work on transmission position/oiling and dry sump setup have been very useful to me personally and, I'm sure, others as well. Your racing exploits, failures, and successes have been entertaining and inspirational. Best of luck selling your cars. I wish I could afford to buy them. And more to the point, best of luck with your recovery.

Regards,

Ed Holyoke
818S

Dave 53

03-21-2024, 05:42 PM

Wow! Crazy story. So glad it has a happy ending - your alive! Best wishes for a quick recovery and track days in 2025.

As a side note... I was at Laguna Seca two weekends ago and struck up a long conversation with a wonderful gentleman as he walked past our pits. Only after we had been talking awhile, he divulged that he was Carroll Shelby's cardiologist - and shared a few stories.

Bob_n_Cincy

03-21-2024, 07:42 PM

Take care buddy.

mikeb75

03-28-2024, 10:14 AM

Best wishes for your recovery!

Santiago

03-31-2024, 10:06 PM

Oh my, that is both very unfortunate and fortunate all at the same time. Very relieved to hear you are on the mend. You have inspired more than a few folks here, and I'm glad to say I am one who has lived vicariously through your work. Super sad to see that you won't be hitting the track this year and carrying the Subie flag.

I'm always on the look out for my next poor financial decision that I shouldn't make...but this is on another level.

BigDanSubaru

04-01-2024, 08:58 AM

Gator, I am sorry to hear about your situation. Glad you are back home and recovering. You contributed so much to the 818 community and we appreciate that. Best wishes to you and your family. I hope your 818 finds a home where it is loved and cared for as much as it was with you. Get well soon!

jforand

04-05-2024, 08:44 PM

Wow, that is an amazing story. Very sorry to hear about it, but glad you had the good fortune of the people around you who acted so quickly.

Best wishes for the fastest recovery possible.

Sgt.Gator

05-08-2024, 07:11 PM

thanks for the best wishes. ive been in 4 hospitals , over 100 days i ICUs. I'm still unable to sit up. but im goig to beat this!

Sgt.Gator

08-01-2024, 01:30 PM

Since my last update there has been big progress physically. I was accepted into the Shirley Ryan AbilityLab in Chicago. They are an amazing facility and staff, one of the best in the world. In six weeks I was able to go from plugged full of tubes and almost unable to move, to walking short distances with a walker! I got home last week, what a blessing to be back home. The long journey continues.

I've reduced the price on the 818R, $17K. I really need to move it out before winter. I have a wheelchair lift in my garage now, courtesy of my retired police buddies, and there's just no room for race cars. So if you know anyone who wants an 818R please refer them. I am the very definition of a motivated seller!

Thanks for all your prayers,
Gator

longislandwrx

11-05-2024, 11:53 AM

Glad you are on the mend. Sad you had to liquidate your cars.

Hope every day gets a little easier.

Sgt.Gator

10-17-2025, 02:21 PM

The 818R has a new home! A buyer in Texas has purchased the car, the transporter picked it up yesterday. I know he follows this forum, I hope he continues the car's journey with his own adventures.

I was both happy and sad to see it go. I really enjoyed the journey with this car, well most of the time, occasionally not so much :). The 818R, the STI, the tow rig, and the Palatov D4 are all gone. All that's left is the BRZ, it's going up on RacingJunk soon.

The new buyer took all my spare wheels/tires, axles, ball joints, etc. However I have a few things left over that 818 builders may want. An AIM MXM dash and harness. APR splitter rods, Aviaid Subaru Dry Sump Pan, Radium Engineering fuel surge tank with AEM pump, Sparco arm harnesses, Sparco race pedal covers, and iWire adaptors. Some of this is already listed on my eBay store, some not yet. I'll be checking in here to see how ya'll are doing, you can PM here, or check my ebay store: https://www.ebay.com/str/colonelredracing

My journey to recovery is coming along slowly. I try to walk at least one mile each day. I'm working with a breathing coach who has helped me maximize the available lung volume I still have. If you have AFIB, don't let a doctor talk you into taking Amiodarone without going over the toxic side effects with you first. If he says it's perfectly safe in low dose contact me!

The best thing, I bought a 2025 Ford Maverick Lobo. It's a blast to drive! Because it uses an auto with floppy paddles I don't have to do any heel & toe downshifts and clutch work. I've had it to Oregon Raceway Park once and am going back again tomorrow for the season close. I have a thread on the Maverick Truck Club forum here: Sgt. Gator 2025 Maverick Lobo Track & Autocross Thread and still post videos on my YouTube Channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@colonelredracing

In the words of my Dad, I'm still buying green bananas!