FFR Side Pipes

[thriftychicken]

After waiting since June for my 351w exhaust, I finally get the parts and notice the 4-port header flange doesn't line up with much on the side pipe. 2 of the ports are nearly 1/2 blocked off. Do people really run these like this?? Is there a 4-into-2 adapter that I can use or is there a different side pipe that anyone recommends?

[snakebit31]

Are you sure you have coupe headers and side pipes? The coupe side pipes are a slip fit, 2 into 2. No flange.

[David Williamson]

The new Gen 3 coupe uses the same headers as the roadster with different side pipes, so they do bolt on unlike the older cars.
I have not got to the point of looking at the pipes yet, still waiting for my engine and few other parts
David W

[thriftychicken]

I placed the gasket on the side pipe flange and there is a lot of 2 of the ports covered up. I can post an image later.

[AC Bill]

Perhaps you rec'd the incorrect headers for the coupes side pipes? Do the gaskets line up OK with the headers themselves, but not for the sidepipes?

[thriftychicken]

I don't know what I'm doing from my phone so if no image shows up I'll find a computer later.
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[John Dol]

From the pic it appears that the flange is mated well to the pipe.
At that point just cut the gasket material in the center maybe?

John

[thriftychicken]

So you feel that basically 3 of the 4 header tubes running into a wall will be ok? I could grind out the side pipe flange and gain a little more flow.

[John Dol]

Maybe I'm not getting the whole picture of exactly how these pipes are running in to the flange?
I have a gen 2 with the slip connection so was just going off of what I thought I saw.

John

[AC Bill]

It appears the gasket lines up OK with the bolt holes, and fully covers the outer edge of the flange, so it will be sealed.. I can only imagine, that there is no manufactured gasket suitable to follow the exact shape of the header opening, so they just supplied one that would seal around the edge.
That gasket material in the opening could all be removed, or it will remove itself after awhile. When I pulled my side-pipes, (which use that exact gasket) off for painting, after 5000 miles, there was nothing left in the center at all. It had all been burned away and blown out.

Many builders just use the high temp copper RTV at the flange, instead of gaskets, and with great success.

[Garry Bopp]

Chicken,

Is it just the gasket that's wrong? From what I read on your first post, the actual sidepipe does not line up with the header? Is that correct? If so, I would definitely give Factory Five a call and get an answer.

Garry

[thriftychicken]

I'm not sure why everyone is commenting on the gasket fitment. I'm just putting the gasket there to show how the header tubes would line up with the side pipe flange. Actually 3 of the 4 header tubes are nearly half blocked by the side pipe flange. I can't for the life of me understand why they built a flange that blocks off the header tubes!

[thriftychicken]

Did the forum browser or thread format change? I don't see where I can add an image.
This is an awfully long link, but copy, paste and go and maybe the image with the gasket out of the way will help illustrate what I'm dealing with.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/iiUlHFGqFlJJBfK8uuTW2ROr0guZ_q6S1zU_fThs60enjdf4DE erXCu527wkBFVxVe-o0Ef43n1JLMmuXhhHx9BU21pBYGqQDiloP86ZrLCl-g3wtBkBdEZGDU1-FsaZCj1klI-uLYL4mXjQVUEXKOw_Gm68MDsBj97S8X1eyu278-5h28UWuocSAmoWAR3ciie-8uCAFLm-93JFT3YlxpKHOcfap5JKpqfu0sjHo17KKcyAAlo5Bg-EwEl2oiGHSZ55hseYDTJMRpTMJvNsLAHtf9CzXtl74Tod8Ua6e r0CcFmtc8EMdkbbwbpsbMKlIOXfBNcZ68sJw3XBEXTsCMnkRTJ 8l1-67-D60M6Fi8z_2mwAicHUT9Ru2LaU6g6p9vsd9fmMrJ5Jvp77Yx2s DuLAmlf8mMIfxUyWqVphPhfovY1fFMvaYdlObq0E604gjoQYvw fAIzNRKBlPa_RbNKtm_dJQfjtrlV3Ra5SNjwzdZjwPugDrnkGX 0e5rPvWKng7PYOU5OBDvv7l4Hw7gzEZVz1Dhcc_ZFrB2jS7RAB Pvdhf4p7La9jYpaQfyUdZSfRO5GC5zEOQvBdrxTVH22bKDy3zq Ao7qluyQAHEXjg=w1133-h637-no

[Bill Waters]

Clearly a mismatch, Thrifty; am interested in the resolution of this, since I have Roadster headers for a 302 block which will mate to the new coupe sidepipes. These are back-ordered. I had thought that they weren't finished with the initial production run, since my Type 65 R was ordered pretty early after the release.

We're these the new side pipes for the Gen 3 coupe?

Edit: if above unclear, I'm referring to the new sidepipes that are on back order or just not yet completed as part of an initial production run.

[thriftychicken]

These are the current side pipes they are building. FFR says they are using this same side pipe on the three gen 3 cars they have built and there are no performance issues. I am to build my own side pipes if I'm not happy with this setup. I was going to rework the collector area on the side pipe, but instead I'm going to try a 1/2" laser cut spacer that I'm having made to put between flanges and grind/taper the obstructing side pipe flange. This will be my band-aid until I have time to rework.
I just don't understand how blocking off half of an exhaust port on 6 of 8 cylinders is OK.

[AC Bill]

I can't picture how you would mount traditional looking coupe twin side pipes, with the header you have? Be interested in seeing the new coupe style side pipes, and what the flange on them looks like.
Apparently, a builder can now use a roadster side pipe on them, instead of the original coupe style..Either way, they all use the roadster headers now..
http://www.hillbankusa.com/sites/default/files/styles/cardealer-car-page-full/public/car-photos/TED_7627-X2.jpg?itok=qY-o5IGZ

[Bill Waters]

True, ACBill - you can. But those with experience tell us that the Roadster sidepipes will hang low without an intermediate piece to remedy that (though it's for the Coyote engine with the appropriate headers, see John George's build thread for a picture of the one that, I believe, Mark D. fabricated). If thrifty' s situation is representative, there is no question that that mismatch is suboptimal. Time for the plasma cutter and TIG welder to come out....

I have a set of Roadster sidepipes, just in case.

[10LCobra]

Interesting that they changed it.

[Bill Waters]

Just received tracking info regarding a 47 lb package from FFR. This will no doubt be my sidepipes. Will advise what I find.

[David Hodgkins]

Did the forum browser or thread format change? I don't see where I can add an image.
This is an awfully long link, but copy, paste and go and maybe the image with the gasket out of the way will help illustrate what I'm dealing with.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/iiUlHFGqFlJJBfK8uuTW2ROr0guZ_q6S1zU_fThs60enjdf4DE erXCu527wkBFVxVe-o0Ef43n1JLMmuXhhHx9BU21pBYGqQDiloP86ZrLCl-g3wtBkBdEZGDU1-FsaZCj1klI-uLYL4mXjQVUEXKOw_Gm68MDsBj97S8X1eyu278-5h28UWuocSAmoWAR3ciie-8uCAFLm-93JFT3YlxpKHOcfap5JKpqfu0sjHo17KKcyAAlo5Bg-EwEl2oiGHSZ55hseYDTJMRpTMJvNsLAHtf9CzXtl74Tod8Ua6e r0CcFmtc8EMdkbbwbpsbMKlIOXfBNcZ68sJw3XBEXTsCMnkRTJ 8l1-67-D60M6Fi8z_2mwAicHUT9Ru2LaU6g6p9vsd9fmMrJ5Jvp77Yx2s DuLAmlf8mMIfxUyWqVphPhfovY1fFMvaYdlObq0E604gjoQYvw fAIzNRKBlPa_RbNKtm_dJQfjtrlV3Ra5SNjwzdZjwPugDrnkGX 0e5rPvWKng7PYOU5OBDvv7l4Hw7gzEZVz1Dhcc_ZFrB2jS7RAB Pvdhf4p7La9jYpaQfyUdZSfRO5GC5zEOQvBdrxTVH22bKDy3zq Ao7qluyQAHEXjg=w1133-h637-no

I just upgraded your account for full access. Here' are some picture embedding tips:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?18962-How-to-use-the-Image-Gallery-to-embed-pictures-in-posts

:)

[thriftychicken]

Just received tracking info regarding a 47 lb package from FFR. This will no doubt be my sidepipes. Will advise what I find.

If you get what I got for the coupe, you will get a side pipe bolt flange that blocks off over half of one header tube, nearly half of a second header tube and about a quarter of a third tube. I made a half inch open spacer that goes between the two bolt flanges and ground out as much of the side pipe flange as I could to take away sharp corners and add clearance. I think this works ok. I got to go kart last weekend and I came back with the shakes... wow that is hairy!

[AC Bill]

If you get what I got for the coupe, you will get a side pipe bolt flange that blocks off over half of one header tube, nearly half of a second header tube and about a quarter of a third tube.

Well that's absurd. Surely they could design a more compatible flange on the sidepipe's, to suit the headers, or vice versa. What is FFR doing?

[David Williamson]

the design is 4 - 1.75 pipes from the header joining 2 - 2 inch pipes mounted at an angle. If you calculate the area of the 4 primary pipes it is 9.6 inch squared and the area of the side pipes is 6.3 inch squared. The roadster pipe is 3 inch diameter or about 7 inch squared.
How much restriction this causes compared to the roadster pipe i don't know but my guess is they are similar. The 4 into 1 collector on the roadster side pipe is not ideal for flow either.
Anyone up for a dyno comparison?
David W

[thriftychicken]

6.3 square inches would be perfect for the two primary pipes that are unrestricted. Unfortunately the other two primary pipes run into a wall (side pipe flange) which drastically cuts down the flow on two cylinders. The 4-into-1 header on the coyote engine allows all 4 cylinders to breathe into the dual side pipes which is not the case with the 351W headers.

[Paul G]

Here is a visual, I have the optional Coyote headers, which may be different that the 351W
http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah105/cobradriver2/IMG_20171020_085819880_TOP_zpszjb6p3p4.jpg (http://s1378.photobucket.com/user/cobradriver2/media/IMG_20171020_085819880_TOP_zpszjb6p3p4.jpg.html)
http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah105/cobradriver2/IMG_20171018_191759920_zpslaglpfva.jpg (http://s1378.photobucket.com/user/cobradriver2/media/IMG_20171018_191759920_zpslaglpfva.jpg.html)
http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah105/cobradriver2/IMG_20171018_191755946_zpsndjuatyl.jpg (http://s1378.photobucket.com/user/cobradriver2/media/IMG_20171018_191755946_zpsndjuatyl.jpg.html)

[thriftychicken]

What you have should be fine. Those headers basically have a collector built in. The 351W have 4 tubes running into the side pipe like my picture shows with the gasket. FFR needs to allow room in the 351W headers for a merge collector if that is the side pipe they plan to use.

[Paul G]

I have a roadster as well, and I had the same headers for my 302, I was having some issues with my O2 sensor location all the way in the sidepipe collector. I opted to pony up the money for new headers that have the collector like to what I have pictured for the Coyote, except they go back to the 4 outlets I believe, that was 2 years ago. For me it got my O2 sensor sitting at 12 o' clock and closer to the heads. I would image a 302 and 351 header could be built that have the opening like the header in the picture. Contact Factory Five if you have not all ready, I'm guessing that all Gen 3 coupe headers will need the ends like I have on the Coyote headers. I got my Roaster headers from gpheaders.com which believe are making the Coyote headers for FFR. The last item I'm waiting for is the A/C kit, just got my last 2 Alum panels today.

[Bill Waters]

I have received my Type 65 Gen 3 sidepipes, and they are the same as what's depicted here. Mine is a full-race application, and it can't possibly be true that the combination of either the optional coyote header or the 302/351 roadster header into the new sidepipe will not have significant performance issues.

I think I'll give FFR a call and discuss, as others have.

Thanks,

Bill

[Bill Waters]

Spoke with Tony, who said that the Snap-On car uses these, and gets 520 rwhp. They do not believe this setup causes a flow restriction. Appreciate their taking time to share their data and experience. We'll each have to decide about this issue in our individual application.

[thriftychicken]

They are not using 351w headers. Every car they've set up is using headers with collectors built into them. Just guessing but they probably have two cars with coyote engines and one with the aluminator?? Both of these engines use the open collector/merge design which won't have real flow issues like the 351w setup does.

[thriftychicken]

75886
This shows my spacer installed so the header primaries that are blocked off have some room to breathe.

[Dave Tabor]

Dave #17 here. I usually post on the other forum but I'm glad that I found this thread.

I'm doing a 302-based build and received the 302 headers and the same pipes as thriftychicken and thought that this can't be right.

Tony at FFR confirms that what I received is correct.

How do I make the spacer, thriftychicken?

Thanks,
Dave

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[thriftychicken]

I made a CAD drawing and sent it to a shop that laser cuts. I also ground away a lot of material on the side pipe flange to get a little better transition and get rid of the sharp corners.

[Dave Tabor]

Ok, thanks- I will do the same or just see how the engine runs.

Sort of annoying and I'm tempted to try the usual 4-port Roadster pipes- I don't care one way or the other about the dual-dual-pipe look. Or I might weld up my own pipes but that becomes another project in itself.

Dave

[Bill Waters]

They are not using 351w headers. Every car they've set up is using headers with collectors built into them. Just guessing but they probably have two cars with coyote engines and one with the aluminator?? Both of these engines use the open collector/merge design which won't have real flow issues like the 351w setup does.

You are correct, of course. I will be finding a different solution than the FFR pipes.

[thriftychicken]

I'm still scratching my head as to why FFR justifies the 302/351 header-to-sidepipe fitment. There is enough restriction in at least two of the header primary tubes to create a lot more heat and performance loss. I hope something is changed in the future.

[Smoke4570]

I've been considering a coupe build and this over site and lack of concern from FFR is disappointing. I assume this was likely some expedient to reduce cost? One header design for both applications even if it doesn't work right? Are enjoying older headers and side pipes available anymore?

[thriftychicken]

It ticked me off to the point of disbelief when they told me if I didn't like the setup that I could build my own side pipes. These are too loud anyway so I guess I will take their advice at a great expense to me.

[Boig Motorsports]

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4572/38681247522_1217439a7a_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21W8vfJ)P1000843 (https://flic.kr/p/21W8vfJ) by Boig Robert (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154489824@N08/), on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4569/38658017516_6d803abc28_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21U5rMo)P1000856 (https://flic.kr/p/21U5rMo) by Boig Robert (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154489824@N08/), on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4574/37825673675_c502c141ab_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZCwsXv)P1000866 (https://flic.kr/p/ZCwsXv) by Boig Robert (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154489824@N08/), on Flickr

My first time trying Flickr! These pics are of our First coyote in a Gen 3 coupe exhaust

Bob Boig, Boig Motorsports

[Dave Tabor]

Hi Bob,

Any chance you'll be doing these for 302/351 headers?

Thanks,
Dave

[Boig Motorsports]

Dave Tabor

Yes, we will be doing these headers and sidepipes for small blocks IF there is sufficient interest!

Boig Motorsports