Competition and Comparables for the Project 818

[kach22i]

When I entered the design competition, I thought to myself; Let's design a car I would want over a used Boxster in the same price range, or give my 1977 Targa up over.

I'm not sure I did that, not sure anyone did that...........but that's just me.

However, the whole topic of light weight mid-engined sports car will not fade away for me. I've been fascinated by the subject as far back as I can remember, most likely started when I drove my first Go-Kart in 3rd grade while on a school field trip.

Inspiration for topic:
http://thehotseatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1237&p=11848#p11848
http://nexus404.com/Blog/wp-content/uploads2/2011/06/Toyota-GRMN-Hybrid-w600.jpg

Since new cars like the above MR2 concept will be much more expensive than the 818, and 550 Porsche replicas are just too tiny to be considered in the same class..........................are other kit cars which are mostly "retro" the real comparables?

Will the Project 818 be in a class/market by it's self?

[Niburu]

I think the used car market is really the 818's main competitor.
People are going look hard at what they could have for the same money.
Porsche Boxster, turbo MR2, BMW M3, C5 Corvette, 3rd gen RX7's
Or what they could build for much less.
It's surprisingly easy to build an LS1 powered Miata these days, you can buy and bolt-on everything you need.

[wjfawb0]

An LS1/3 miata would be my fall back. I can get a really nice miata to drive around and then swap the motors using one ofa few different sources that have been doing it for a few years. I had a 94 that I planned to convert and even bought a rear end kit and fuel system, but the 94 was hard to live with at the time and I sold it. Motorcycles have been my toys for the past few years. The price point of the 818 is very exciting, though. If it is a fairly decent car to drive a distance, then it will be at the top of my list.

[Steve91T]

I just can't wait to blow past just about everything on the track, in a car that I built myself, is street legal, and only cost $20K or so.

[PhyrraM]

There will be as many 'competitors' as there are builders. Just on these forums folks are already cross-shopping not only with new and used production cars, but also with exo-kits and FFRs other vehicles. I guess it's basically human nature to view your ideas/ideals as the same as the masses.

Personally, I am seroiusly interested in the 818 because it's using the Subaru drivetrain, but mid-mounted. This low center of gravity solution is so painfully obvious (IMHO) that I have been planning to eventually build my own for a long time. FFRs kit will allow me to advance my timetable significantly. Truthfully, I'm suprised that no one else has successfully marketed a middy Subaru kit yet. In that vien, I suppose the closest competitor for me would be a 914 Subaru conversion or Subaru based EXOcar.

[thebeerbaron]

There's a mid-engined Porsche/Subaru powered exo car that's starting production. Early on in the 818 process pictures of its frame were mistaken for spy shots of the 818 frame.

There's also the Midlana (http://www.midlana.com/) project, which I've referenced several times. The goal is not a kit, but a book detailing how to build your own mid-engined drivetrain-agnostic semi-exo car.

Other than that... I don't know of much.

I've thought about the Caterham/Westfield, thought about the V8 Miata, but none of them was quite right. I think that a mid-engined car that weighs 818kg and has enough body work that it won't be either the aerodynamic brick that is the Seven or the airplane that is the Miata would be awesome. Having someone like Factory Five behind it is a great asset - no international phone calls and shipping to get support, no concern that the shop will disappear after selling 3.2 kits...

[kyle242gt]

Getting worked up over weight and powertrain layout is a distraction, I think... do enough of that and you'll never find anything comparable. Purchase price, operating cost, performance envelope will determine competition.

If the competition you're thinking of is from track-day junkies, the competitive cars will be what people are already running:
911
Boxster/Cayman
E30/E36
Miata
Lotus
Corvette
WRX/STI
etc...

[ScottKoschwitz]

From my own perspective, the 818 is competing with the used market: Lotus Elise, Boxster, Cayman, and some crazy turbo- or supercharged NA or NB Miata. I can buy a used Elise for about $25,000, and I was thinking of the 818 as a cheaper alternative. My sense is that an 818 I build will probably probably come close to that, so cost saving is not a key factor. The benefit I see to the 818 is the satisfaction of building the car yourself (as time and money permit), the ability to customize it, and it's uniqueness. Plus, I think the fact that you can still build and register your own car is cool as hell (and, frankly, I doubt how long that will be).

[StatGSR]

Personally, I am seroiusly interested in the 818 because it's using the Subaru drivetrain, but mid-mounted.

have you seen the Matrix TR-42???

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?412-Matrix-TR-42-a-mid-engined-RWD-suby-kit-car

http://www.matrixmotorwerks.com/

[Ks2]

there is the saker... though i don't recall much else about it other then midengined subaru drivetrain and it was more for the track then the street

[PhyrraM]

have you seen the Matrix TR-42???

Yup, been following it from day 1. My problem with it, and exo-cars in general, is that I really truely feel that given enough time I can do the job as well or better, especially seeing that most EXO cars/kits seem overpriced for what you get. Somehow, having a full body takes that pressure away for the 818.

[D2W]

Yup, been following it from day 1. My problem with it, and exo-cars in general, is that I really truely feel that given enough time I can do the job as well or better, especially seeing that most EXO cars/kits seem overpriced for what you get. Somehow, having a full body takes that pressure away for the 818.

This is exactly how I feel, especially about the body. Before the 818 I was looking at either an exo car and building a body for it. (Don't know if I have the time or money for that.) The Smyth Performance modified Jetta Kit by Mark Smith. (I know it won't be in the same category performance wise, but will be an easier build and more of a daily driver.) Or taking an old 911 and putting a WRX motor and tranny in it midengine for a sub 2000 lb screamer that could still be a daily driver.
Other than the production cars already mentioned there are some kit cars coming to market in this configuration. One that I know of is the La Bala by Steve Graber. Same idea as the 818, but not done with the knowledge base that the 818 will benefit from.

[Brian Apple]

Subaru and toyota are working on a car together for a 20k price range. Here is the Car and Driver inside scoop......
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/spied/08q2/2011_subaru_toyota_rear-wheel-drive_sports_coupe-spied

[Rotr8]

^^^Hhmmmm dont get out much do you, google FT-86

[Horhay]

I stopped myself from trading my STi on a 996 because of the 818, so logically the 818 is competing with the 996 & 986 for me. I plan to spend a little bit more than most and build something to really compete with a track ready 986. That's what the 818 is to me.

[kach22i]

I found a bunch of other Kit Cars (some Subie mid-engined) on several SEMA show threads, but got seriously distracted by the SEMA show girls.

If you want to get any work done, stay away from those sites.:cool:

[kach22i]

Just an FYI, when this contest was started I tried to find a similar car from five years ago which I remembered reading about. Turns out the reason I could not find the car is because it only looked mid-engined, it was still a front engine design. Not that it would have changed anything, still I think it is a comparable in a certain way. It's using Subie mechanicals, looks mid-engined and may have been close to fitting our template. The designer is also of special interest.

Prodrive P2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prodrive_P2

The car's styling was done by Peter Stevens, who also designed the McLaren F1.

http://www.subarunews.net/news/news20060113.htm
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More images here:
http://www.subdriven.com/gallery/gallery2.php?mode=album&album=/Automobiles/Concept%20Cars%20and%20Design/Prodrive%20P2
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[BipDBo]

There are rumors that Miata is planning to drastically reduce weight on the Miata, and that their goal is 800 kg.

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/06/08/mazda-targeting-1-760-pound-target-for-next-miata-400-pounds-l/

[kach22i]

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/06/08/mazda-targeting-1-760-pound-target-for-next-miata-400-pounds-l/


A turbocharged, direct-injection 1.4-liter four pot could work its way under the hood, though IL reports that the vehicle may also be considerably narrower than the current car. Other clever weight-saving moves include the deletion of the dashboard glove box and the replacement of the traditional paper owner's manual with an electronic copy on a USB stick.

Interesting.

If narrowing does not affect the handling adversity I mean. Considering that 90% of my vintage 911 trips are just me, and maybe 8% of the remaining 10% are with my 5'-1" narrow shoulder wife, this could work out for most other guys in similar situations.

For the record, I'd never give up my vintage 911 for a new Miata.

[Oppenheimer]

If narrowing does not affect the handling adversity I mean. Considering that 90% of my vintage 911 trips are just me, and maybe 8% of the remaining 10% are with my 5'-1" narrow shoulder wife, this could work out for most other guys in similar situations.

Guys in the narrow-shouldered wives club?

Seriously, it is interesting. It seems like weight is finally getting the attention it deserves (the FT-86 Toyobaru thing is all about 'light-weight sports car', now we hear about this new lightweight Miata, like that was a car in need of a diet). So FFR is ahead of the curve.

Our cars are getting lighter, even as we as a nation get heavier?

[kach22i]

1. Guys in the narrow-shouldered wives club?

2. Our cars are getting lighter, even as we as a nation get heavier?

1. Most women have narrower shoulders than men, if she don't she might be a transvestite - look for man hands and an Adam's apple (think Ann Coulter).

2. My theory on why cars like the Mustang are so big coincides with people in the USA ballooning like cows and chickens on growth hormones.............hey, don't we happen to eat those?

[Oppenheimer]

I understood 'narrow shouldered wife' to mean as compared to other women, not 'my 5' 1" wife is narrow shouldered compared to most guys' :)

I agree that the Mustang (and the other current 'muscle' cars - 'stang was once Pony, but no longer) are just ballooning out of control. I realize some of that is all the safety built in these days, but do they have to be that big? Is that what people really want? (or will fit into?)

It must be, those guys do their reasearch, and know what people want.

[thebeerbaron]

There are rumors that Miata is planning to drastically reduce weight on the Miata, and that their goal is 800 kg.

I think they've actually stated that they don't think they can make that goal. I'm a Miata fan and a lightweight fan, but as I've said before: light and cheap is a hard target to hit. Lighter than an Elise, less money, and not shipped to you in a thousand pieces?

[PhyrraM]

Like most all trends, the current one towards larger and heavier cars cannot continue unabated.

When it's over, hopefully it doesn't crash as hard as the housing market and we can all ease into well engineered, smaller, lighter cars again without losing too much of what we have come to expect and enjoy from modern automobiles. However, if it does crash hard in a few more years we will all be forced into hastily cobbled together automotive attmpts to meet fuel economy and CO2 emmisions standards that really please no-one.

It will be the late 70-early 80s all over again.

[wjfawb0]

I'd say the need to crash well probably drives a lot of the size and weight. More length and width provides more crumple zone and room to slow things down before your brains smack your cranium or your organs smack your ribs.

I seem to notice that a 2012 Mustang GT has less interior room than a 2002 GT, but the door trim, dash and seats have a lot more padding and girth. Of course there are all the airbags, curtains and APIA junk all the cars have on them today on top of ESC and God knows what. I'm sure some of you noticed the A-pillars on some cars between 2002 and 2003 got deeper and bigger so your head didn't hurt as bad after bouncing off of it. I had a 2002 Mustang and a 2003 Mustang, so it was really evident to me, especially when I decided to install an A-pillar gauge pod.

[kach22i]

Just trying to keep it all in one thread.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?970-Does-no-top-and-or-no-H6-support-break-the-deal-for-you/page4

I did not know where to post this. Top or no Top. or in side drivers room. I think I found a car that may answer some questions. And this car has a removable top. and is about the size of the 818. 266126622663

More info:
http://www.diseno-art.com/encyclopedia/vehicles/road/cars/lobini_h1.html
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The mid-mounted, turbocharged, 1.8 litre, 4 cylinder engine from Volkswagen Brasil Ltd. develops 180 horsepower @ 5700 rpm. Mated to a 5 speed manual gearbox it is capable of taking the Lobini H1 up to 60 mph in under 6 seconds, going on to a top speed of around 140 mph.

[Oppenheimer]

Um, Wow! That thing is cool. And its from way back in '98.

The similarities to 818 are interesting. Its a little heavier (2,200 something pounds), less power (180 hp), 0-60 in 5.8. Its also got a Targa roof that is stowable on board.

[kach22i]

How about this used?

I've never seen it before with a full windshield, I rather like it this way.

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f152/renault-sport-spider-whattya-think-89221/
http://www.swaqvalley.com/Blueprints/1997_Renault_Sport_Spider.jpg

[TroyLynx]

That Renault Sport Spider looks good. What does it have for an engine a 2 piston 2 stroke? It seems to make alot of noise and produces no torque. Other than that it looks cool.

[Cooluser23]

That's why I was hoping the 818 would have more exotic head turning looks. For some reason the judges seemed to pick rather boring and pedestrian designs. Oh well.

Maybe the 818 is like a Porsche Cayman, crippled as not to upset the holy horse, the Porsche 911. - In FFR's case the Factory Five GTM. It would be bad if a car for less money looks and performs better, wouldn't it?

[PhyrraM]

It's all subjective.

Some folks, myself generally included, are far more attracted to something fun, interesting, and different. Ferraris, while generally considered beautiful, just don't do it for me. They all look basically the same. I think the Porsche Caymen is far more exciting. I also like the Ford Flex, but hate the new Edge and Explorer (for example).

The expection was/is the McLaren F1. That thing is georgeous, even if it did follow traditional Supercar styling.

Either way, my point is that choosing a particular styling theme for the 818 is far from crippling it. It's simply a *choice* FFR made that *some* others would not have made.

[StatGSR]

I just want a mini gumpert apollo..... :D

[kach22i]

There are a half dozen cars in this other forum thread which look similar to some of the FFR entries (in a good way).

Link:
http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=1&fID=2&tID=174742&bottom=0

[kach22i]

Somehow I cannot shake the comment made long ago about; a car we are not afraid to drive in traffic.

Found some old photos today which I took a few years back.

On the way to work.............July of 2008
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/MISC/L7-1.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/MISC/L7-2.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/MISC/L7-3.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/MISC/L7-4.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/MISC/L7-5.jpg

Is this a comparable?

[PhyrraM]

Is this a comparable?

For some, yes. For many, no.

For me? Kinda. I actually plan on (eventually) building both a Locost type of car (using a 3.8 SuperCoupe motor and Miata based suspension) and a Subaru based middy. The competition is - Which first? (and will it be cool enough to drop ideas of the second build?)

[ScottKoschwitz]

For me, maybe. My hope is that the 818 is more than just a Seven rival, in the sense of day-to-day drivability. I hope for at least Elise-like utility: you could drive it every day, and in the rain, though most owners likely will not.

[thebeerbaron]

911 Targa?

I think Scott has it right, Elise-level utility for the Roadster version. You can drive it in the rain, but you might not like to.

I suspect the Track version will be very Seven-esque.

Now that we know there will be a bunch of bodies, I can't decide which one I want. Guess I'll just have to collect them all!

[kach22i]

911 Targa?

Elise-level utility.............
Yep, my trusty and slightly rusty 1977 911 Targa, 26 mph when driving mostly highway and loads of fun.

Elise-level utility? Those things are so hard to get in and out of it's crazy. I love them, but would get a used Boxster first.

The Seven in the 2008 photos was cut off by another car shortly after I put my camera down, no wonder he was wearing a helmet. Not a car I would feel safe in driving in traffic. It's just too low first of all, no rear crush zone second of all.

[Ks2]

don't forget the drive shaft inches from your ***...

someone local had one for a bit i got to see, his was lightened and had no floor to speak of, no passenger seat, plastic front windshield, no lights, and so on it was very fast and had a little cover he built that fit over where the passenger would normally sit... i could settle for not being the absolute fastest thing in town if it meant i could carry some groceries or a laptop bag to work etc

would be nice if it was easy enough to get into and out of that my grandmother could ride in it...

[thebeerbaron]

no rear crush zone second of all.

Crush zone? We don't need no stinkin' crush zone...

http://www.usa7s.com/forum/uploads/slngsht/modernbeat/modernbeat/DSCF1322.jpg

One of my favorite "everything I need and nothing else" solutions, ever.

[Niburu]

Yep, my trusty and slightly rusty 1977 911 Targa, 26 mph when driving mostly highway and loads of fun.

mines an '83, love the little reliable *******

[kach22i]

mines an '83, love the little reliable *******
It would be interesting to find out how many Porsche guys are in this forum. I just figured out how to do my signature with theBeerBaron's help.

I would imagine that eventually someone will squeeze an air-cooled Porsche, VW or Corvair engine into an 818.

Some old school boys still out there.:cool:

[D2W]

I love 911's but I don't have one now. In my opinion one of the best "drivers" cars ever. If you haven't driven one you should, especially the older air-cooled. It's amazing the performance potential from a sub 2500 lb car with only 200 or so hp.

[CooperD]

The Seven in the 2008 photos was cut off by another car shortly after I put my camera down, no wonder he was wearing a helmet. Not a car I would feel safe in driving in traffic. It's just too low first of all, no rear crush zone second of all.

Probably the main reason he was wearing a helmet was because he had no windshield on that Seven. I've always thought of those cars as four-wheeled motorcycles anyway.

[kach22i]

First Pictures of Upgraded Saker GT
http://www.gtspirit.com/2010/09/14/first-pictures-of-upgraded-saker-gt/
http://www.gtspirit.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/first_pictures_of_upgraded_saker_gt.jpg

Saker currently offers two vehicles, the GT and the Sprint. The Sprint is roofless and the GT has a roof. Both models are powered by a 2.0 liter Subaru engine. The total weight of the current line-up is 770kg.

http://www.automotto.com/entry/saker-shows-its-brand-new-exclusive-race-cars-rapx-and-sniper/
http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2010/10/22/saker-rapx-and-sniper_hK3K3_25552.jpg

We can expect to see the new Saker line-up burn rubber on the tracks in amateur motor-sports as the pricing is pretty reasonable at around € 50,000. Saker will release the two variants overseas later while the current focus is on the European market.
http://www.automotto.com/entry/saker-shows-its-brand-new-exclusive-race-cars-rapx-and-sniper/
http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2010/10/22/saker-rapx-and-sniper-1_5HjZg_25552.jpg

http://themoneyconverter.com/USD/EUR.aspx

50,000 EUR = 70,795.46 USD

Well, that's over budget.

[kach22i]

Mullen Motor Co.
http://www.mullenmotorco.com/specifications.html#thumb

Horsepower: 400
Weight: 2000 lbs. (43% F; 57% R)
Gs pulled on skid test: 1.08
Chassis: Original design, longitudinal mid-engine, rear wheel drive layout
Engine: Corvette LS 2 V-8
Transaxle: Longitudinal 5 speed
Length: 149 inches
Wheelbase: 93 inches
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The rear is the worst part, like a wax candle melted. It's one of those "almost made it" designs, for me anyway.
http://www.mullenmotorco.com/gallery.html

[thebeerbaron]

Mullen Motor Co.
The rear is the worst part, like a wax candle melted. It's one of those "almost made it" designs, for me anyway.


I can't find one nice thing to say about that design. Impressive.

[GUNS]

Mullen Motor Co.
http://www.mullenmotorco.com/specifications.html#thumb

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The rear is the worst part, like a wax candle melted. It's one of those "almost made it" designs, for me anyway.
http://www.mullenmotorco.com/gallery.html

Wow, I appreciate the effort, but it looks like an aborted 1980's concept car. Not good at all!

[Ks2]

looks like a celica combined with a plastic toy that melted on the stove...

[kach22i]

I can't find one nice thing to say about that design. Impressive.
I can say a couple of nice things.

1. The side view of the black prototype with or without the rear wing is very nice in my opinion.

2. The power to weight ratio looks promising.

3. It's a convertible, it's the view from the inside that counts.......except for that tarted up interior.

Like I said the rear kills it for me, it even messes up the front 3/4 view. I did not even know that was even possible. I could glass over that silly hood vent too.

EDIT: Looks like Mullen can do better.

Hybrid Technologies Building 220mpg Supercar That’s Faster Than ZR1
http://jalopnik.com/393774/hybrid-technologies-building-220mpg-supercar-thats-faster-than-zr1
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Hybrid Technologies, makers of electric Minis and the Mullen Motor GT, are working on a lithium-ion/gas plug-in hybrid not only capable of achieving 220mpg, but horsepower numbers that promise to eclipse those of the 638bhp Corvette ZR1.

[EmergencyDeep]

Those Mullen pics make me think about pranking my buddy. He's really interested, but isn't following the day-by-day. "Hey look Jimbo, they've built the first 818s!"

[kach22i]

From a post in the forum by Arnstrom, Grabercars.

http://www.grabercars.com/component/option,com_frontpage/Itemid,1/
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Steve Graber
Cave Creek
AZ
United States
85331

[shinn497]

I think the verdict of this thread is there is no competition and that is why I am excited!

[kach22i]

I think the verdict of this thread is there is no competition and that is why I am excited!
Yep, at double the price and you have some options. At the same price, I have not found a thing.

[BrandonDrums]

This isn't necessarily competition per-se but it's certainly somewhat comparable.

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/13/2012-lotus-exige-s-frankfurt-2011/

The 2012 Lotus Exige S gets a supercharged V6 putting out 350 hp. However, it brings the curb weight up to 2380lbs.


Looks pretty sweet, like a mini Hennesy Venom since it's slightly elongated.

They didn't state a price but I'm sure it's getting up there at this point, to boot it only does 0-60 in 4.1 seconds.

I do like this idea but I feel like Lotus could have made it so much lighter than that. Here's to Dave and the crew for bringing us a much lighter car capable of much more HP :D

[kach22i]

The 2012 Lotus Exige S

I went to the Battle of the Brit's car and motorcycle show last Saturday and had a conversation with an Elise owner. He said because of the "smart air bag" regulation the Elise and Exige will no longer be imported to the USA next year. The Evora however will get smart air bags.

Pictures if anyone likes British cars:
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/2011%20Battle%20of%20the%20Brits%20-%20Auto%20Show/

Check out this old kit car logo at the show.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/2011%20Battle%20of%20the%20Brits%20-%20Auto%20Show/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/2011%20Battle%20of%20the%20Brits%20-%20Auto%20Show/DSCF3411.jpg

[bromikl]

It may not have the P/W of the 818, but with a body like that, I certainly wouldn't kick the Exige S out of bed for eating crackers! :D

[drewmob]

My .02 is that I was drawn here away from building a wrx-swapped 914 or swapping a subaru drivetrain into a vw rail buggy. I do think this is the better option so I joined today and will patiently wait for the 818.

I am a current owner of an s2000 (and 2 subarus, thus the love). The p/w ratio is nowhere near the same and the handling (while impressive) shouldn't be able to keep up with the 818's smoke trail. BUT... A used ap1 s2k can be had in the 7-8k range and upgraded quite a bit before hitting the same price point. Or an ap2 with very low miles for $15ish. It's hard to beat 50/50 weight distribution, reliable, quick, and fuel efficient fun with a push-button retractable top. Besides, a supercharger screaming to 9k is about as thrilling as it gets. I thought it was an ideal track car and still do.

[ArtGirl]

When I think about the 818 and whether it makes sense for me (daily driver), I look at what else I can get for the money that has equal or better performance and equal or better interior/exterior styling and refinement. When I did that for the GTM, the GTM ROI wasn't there for me given the work I needed to outsource(body/paint) to complete the car.

For the 818 to make sense for me its going to need to be better than a used Boxster or Elise in some of the categories described above to a degree that compensates for the advantages provided by a production car. I doubt it can match the refinement of a production car so the combination of styling and performance is going to have to be pretty darn stunning.

[Justen]

When I think about the 818 and whether it makes sense for me (daily driver), I look at what else I can get for the money that has equal or better performance and equal or better interior/exterior styling and refinement. When I did that for the GTM, the GTM ROI wasn't there for me given the work I needed to outsource(body/paint) to complete the car.

For the 818 to make sense for me its going to need to be better than a used Boxster or Elise in some of the categories described above to a degree that compensates for the advantages provided by a production car. I doubt it can match the refinement of a production car so the combination of styling and performance is going to have to be pretty darn stunning.

I agree that the Performance and Styling will have to be stunning, and I have confidence in ff that they will be. As far as the interior, that is up to you. Thats part of the fun of a kit car, you can make it look however you want on the inside!

[JRL]

Saying there is no competition is dependant on what you want and how much $$ you want to spend. Figuring a daily driver 818 would cost me between $18 - $24 K one option I have given a great deal of thought to is the 914 / LS conversion. A buddy has recently completed his 914 / LS conversion - it is stupid fast and handles superbly - think Can Am car with A/C. If you haven't seen the products from Renegade you need to take a look. http://renegadehybrids.com/

[Ddurham]

From my own perspective, the 818 is competing with the used market: Lotus Elise, Boxster, Cayman, and some crazy turbo- or supercharged NA or NB Miata. I can buy a used Elise for about $25,000, and I was thinking of the 818 as a cheaper alternative. My sense is that an 818 I build will probably probably come close to that, so cost saving is not a key factor. The benefit I see to the 818 is the satisfaction of building the car yourself (as time and money permit), the ability to customize it, and it's uniqueness. Plus, I think the fact that you can still build and register your own car is cool as hell (and, frankly, I doubt how long that will be).
I track a modified and fast lotus Elise. While you maybe can buy one for $25k, my guess is that you will need to spend about that much again to make it as quick as the 818.

[Ks2]

with the gen 2 GTM coming way down in price and difficulty, if you can source the donor parts cheap enough it may be an option

though a nicely tuned sti engine can make that same 400hp plus the subaru brings traction control and ABS...

[ArtGirl]

with the gen 2 GTM coming way down in price and difficulty,

According to the guy that has built 7 (maybe more) of them, the difference between level of effort to build a Gen 1 and Gen II isn't that dramatic.

[kach22i]

For the 818 to make sense for me its going to need to be better than a used Boxster or Elise ..................
Those are my values as well, however the case has been successfully made in this forum many times over that the majority of future 818 buyers/builders value making their own car with their own hands and skills first and foremost.

[ArtGirl]

Those are my values as well, however the case has been successfully made in this forum many times over that the majority of future 818 buyers/builders value making their own car with their own hands and skills first and foremost.

I can appreciate that as I'm currently at the beginning of my own project as well, but it only made sense for me because the end product will be something that I otherwise couldn't afford. I think the cost of a finished 818 will be around the same as a used Boxster.

[mekeys]

What really caught my interest was Dave saying they also plan to build a high mileage version.That I can relate to.100 mpg would really be meaningful.

Mel

[D2W]

I can appreciate that as I'm currently at the beginning of my own project as well, but it only made sense for me because the end product will be something that I otherwise couldn't afford. I think the cost of a finished 818 will be around the same as a used Boxster.

I think what I'm most curious about will be what the value of a finished 818 will be once it becomes a used car. I just don't see it holding its value. Supply and demand I guess.

[Hankl]

I think what I'm most curious about will be what the value of a finished 818 will be once it becomes a used car. I just don't see it holding its value. Supply and demand I guess.

It's going to be worth what someone will pay for it, just like most things in life. What's the price of a used Atom? What would you pay for it, vs, building a 818?

Hank :cool:

[Oppenheimer]

Not everyone that will want an 818 (once they start showing up on the street) will have the skills to build one themselves. I think this is particularly true of the high mpg commutter version.

I can see someone wanting a cool car, that gets better mileage than a Prius (or pretty much anything else), and would rather buy than build. I think in this case the compare would be to cost of used Prius (instead of the more typical used Boxter or Elise that we seem to talk about).

That the 818 (even commutter version) will outperform most cars on the road is only a bonus.

[Ks2]

a acquaintance of mine builds kit cars and small planes (he is attempting a helicopter as well... has been for a year and a half now) and sells the completed vehicles, his is more of a retirement hobby then a business but it is still quite profitable with ebaymotors etc

just a thought for any entrepreneurs out there....

[wooward]

I'm planning to get an 818 so that I can have the satisfaction of putting together my own car. I believe it will be a good first kit car. FFR sells a lot of kits and the forums are pretty active/helpful. Should make my first experience with a kit car an enjoyable one.

[BipDBo]

Here's a kit car under developement that will cost a bit more ($40,000 for the kit) than the 818, but claims to be more powerful and lighter than the 818. It looks like more of a comparable to the Coupe, but at a claimed 1600 lbs, it's weight is closer to the 818. The base LS3 engine has 430 hp, but is capable of much more. DP cars is doing some amazing things at a higher end of both the performance and price scales. Imagine the results if Factory5 and DP cars pooled their resouces!
5791
http://www.stilettoroadster.com/
http://dpcars.net/
The 1600# weight is probably partially attributed to no windows, no doors (I think), no roof, and only a minimal windscreen. Also, the body is probably carbon.

[Oppenheimer]

also there are no fenders. Wouldn't be able to register in many states. Maybe its like the FFR '33, you can build it with fenders or without.

This looks like Buck Rodgers Plymouth Prowler. Not really somethink I would be interested in building.

[kach22i]

http://www.stilettoroadster.com/

All the heat from the engine is up front with the driver, not good for a summer car with no A/C, don't care if it has a roof or not. The heat radiates off the tunnel and insulation only slows the rate of transfer down, not the amount of heat or the mass effect is affected.

I'm a rear and mid-engine fellow, what can I say?
http://www.stilettoroadster.com/Design.html
5792

[BipDBo]

All the heat from the engine is up front with the driver, not good for a summer car with no A/C, don't care if it has a roof or not. The heat radiates off the tunnel and insulation only slows the rate of transfer down, not the amount of heat or the mass effect is affected.

I'm a rear and mid-engine fellow, what can I say?
5792
The engine bay is pretty well vented out the sides. The location of the engine doesn't determine where the heat goes. It's the radiator. If you're worried about heat, you may have a strong argument for putting the radiator up front with a discharge up through the hood, at least with the open roadster. Maybe it should have the radiator in the back, above the transmission, Porsche style. The only air intake up front would be some small openings for cooling the front brakes.

[Horhay]

I think the verdict of this thread is there is no competition and that is why I am excited!
http://www.cstatic-images.com/supersized/MDC/46/438746/425657629.jpg
2000 Boxster - $14,300
Mid Engine - RWD - 5Spd - flat motor

I have to disagree. The 818 has plenty of competition.

[Steve91T]

http://www.cstatic-images.com/supersized/MDC/46/438746/425657629.jpg
2000 Boxster - $14,300
Mid Engine - RWD - 5Spd - flat motor

I have to disagree. The 818 has plenty of competition.

I'm sorry, but those things are heavy and underpowered. Really slow for the money. This is not competition.

Steve

[bromikl]

http://www.cstatic-images.com/supersized/MDC/46/438746/425657629.jpg
2000 Boxster - $14,300
Mid Engine - RWD - 5Spd - flat motor

I have to disagree. The 818 has plenty of competition.

2778 lbs and 217 Hp w/ the 6-cylinder. Plus, it's already assembled. What's the fun in that?

[adesilva]

You can also take into account the fact that repairing that 2000 Boxter will in the long run be much more expensive than the 818 for maintenance. (Due to the 818 basically being a wrx)

[D2W]

http://www.cstatic-images.com/supersized/MDC/46/438746/425657629.jpg
2000 Boxster - $14,300
Mid Engine - RWD - 5Spd - flat motor

I have to disagree. The 818 has plenty of competition.

Don't forget the level of fit and finish in the boxster. An 818 that would meet this level of daily drivability would be much heavier than 818 kg, and much more costlier than 15k. A boxster can also be stripped for track use. No top, no interior, great suspension and handling. Yes it would probably be more expensive to maintain but it is definately competition. All depends on what you want.

[Psay]

Can't comment about the Boxter but the Cayman R is an incredible car. There is enough power and the handling is simply superb, however at £57k it no longer becomes competition for the 818.

As I'm sure you are all fully aware, half of the fun (if not more) of having a kit car is building it. The majority of designs so far will provide us with a beautiful, fast and incredible handling car for around £20-£25k. It might not have the level of finish of a Porsche (although if you spent enough money it would) but it will make one hell of a weekend thrash/track car. I for one can't wait to get my hands on one no matter what the design. I just might have to wait a bit longer than you guys on the other side of the pond.

[Horhay]

Don't forget the level of fit and finish in the boxster. An 818 that would meet this level of daily drivability would be much heavier than 818 kg, and much more costlier than 15k. A boxster can also be stripped for track use. No top, no interior, great suspension and handling. Yes it would probably be more expensive to maintain but it is definately competition. All depends on what you want.
This.

[Oppenheimer]

Dave has stated his thoughts before on the G3F. He thinks its interesting, but 180 degrees opposite of anything FFR would ever do.

I think these two cars actually compliement each other more than compete with each other.

[Dave Smith]

I am very interested in this post but literally swimming in SEMA wrap-up issues. I have reached an agreement to buy my brother's interests in FFR and so any discussions of what he is doing are not germane to the effort. I will share my thoughts on this in a bit. Boxter is a good one, but the concept of the 818 supported and executed properly will be very tough to match. More shortly.

[kitcarj]

Future Subaru
http://www.gizmag.com/la-design-challenge-2011/20424/picture/146837/
http://www.gizmag.com/la-design-challenge-2011/20424/picture/146831/

[kach22i]

Is this too much of a stretch to be a comparable? I know, it's not mid-engined, nor an open top. However it can be a track car.

2011 SEMA Show: 10 Best New Products
http://thehotseatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1757

Absolutely, Hands-Down the Coolest Product at SEMA This Year: 2012 Honda Civic Body-in-White
If you're going racing, or just happen to appreciate raw automotive forms, Honda Performance Development has your ticket. For $3,500 you can buy a 2012 Civic body-in-white. For race teams, this sufficiently streamlines the build process, eliminating the need to buy a production vehicle and disassemble it. In other words, there's no going backward before going forward. This is simple. And it shows Honda is paying attention.
6065

[PhyrraM]

Hasn't Ford also been doing Mustang body in whites since the Foxbody 5.0 days?

I wonder if the Civic currently being used as a race car base, or if Honda is trying to create that market? The current Civic gets very lackluster reviews, so I'm having a hard time picturing the race market.

[BipDBo]

This may be one of the most comparable production cars, The Mastretta MXT.
2100 lbs
mid engine 247 hp
$60,000
Made in Mexico
6213

[dclin]

This may be one of the most comparable production cars, The Mastretta MXT.
2100 lbs
mid engine 247 hp
$60,000
Made in Mexico
6213

Yeah, I was looking at the specs - almost completely identical to Rodney's dimensions, other than being an inch or two lower. I'm really interested in how they packaged/vented the IC:

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/mastretta-mxt-la-2011/full/#photo-4615307/

[kach22i]

This may be one of the most comparable production cars, The Mastretta MXT.
2100 lbs
mid engine 247 hp
$60,000
Made in Mexico
6213

Reminds me a little of the Smart car sports model.
http://www.autoblog.it/tag/smart+roadster
6223

[kach22i]

http://grabcad.com/challenges/supercar-body-challenge

This competition is closed, they had 195 entries (which you can view) and a template available in about a dozen programs.

The wheelbase is about 6 inches longer than the 818, height from what I can tell is about 4'-4", and it's very cab-forward with a big V8 in the rear, and rear radiators. I love the Lancia Stratos style windshield, and that so much of it looks resolved, leaving one the job of simply skinning it.

However despite this iron clad approach of not being not open to debate about the size and proportion of things, the first half dozen entries I viewed failed to follow the template, some were not even close. I'm a bit mystified about this lack of sticking with the template with all that was given, it took a more effort not to comply than to comply, leaving me confused, and way more puzzled than the 818 entries left me.

My generation was taught to follow the rules and to conform, and I admit this does not always work out, but also think it's a good "starting point". I'm just stumped, and left just scratching my head.

Anyways, I offered this find/discovery up because many here have clamored for a V8, and or a cab-forward template, so here it is (or use the GTM), at long last. Enjoy it in good health.

All I know is what is posted on the site (you need to sign up to download), so don't ask me any questions please. I was already signed up at the GrabCAD site so that I could contact another 818 contestant. Looks like an interesting venue, check it out.

[Oppenheimer]

I think it comes down simply to who made the rendering, where they more artist or engineer. An architect, such as yourself, is one of those areas where the two tend to crossover. I imagine there are some architects that lean more one way than the other, more on the art side, or more on the technical side.

[kach22i]

I think it comes down simply to who made the rendering, where they more artist or engineer. An architect, such as yourself, is one of those areas where the two tend to crossover. I imagine there are some architects that lean more one way than the other, more on the art side, or more on the technical side.
Interesting observation, but there are of course exceptions to every rule, and assumptions need to give way to evidence. The evidence I've seen in my life is the best design is one which brings it all together. The far flung stuff is like junk food, the problem solving works is like health food. The stuff which really works, looks good, smells good and taste good too - it does it all and is the meal/design I want.

I've looked at the GrabCad template a little more closely, no way in hell is there going to be enough leg room. I'll have to insert a manikin later, but if it looks to good to be true, it probably is.

[Oppenheimer]

...but if it looks to good to be true, it probably is.

If it tastes to good to be healthy?

[kach22i]

If it tastes to good to be healthy?
That was more of a reference to my getting all excited about the GrabCad template. Upon further inspection it may be flawed.

One of the guys who entered said; the inside is their problem.

Not exactly professional, but then again this was not a professional exercise so I see his point.

[JRL]

I'm waiting to see what develops from FFR. Based on what I have seen to date I may go in another direction. Porsche Boxster's (wife had one) are tremendous cars. The early cars are a bit short on power. That being said any Boxster S from 02 - 06 can be bought for a song and Renegade Hybrid will soon release their kit to drop an LS motor in one. It looks like you could build a killer car for around $25 K if you sell the S motor and use a new crate motor - hard to resist a very, very fast daily driver with all the creature comforts. Time will tell..................

[kach22i]

..........and Renegade Hybrid will soon release their kit to drop an LS motor in one.
Just an FYI, but you may already know about this if you are a P-car fan:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/ShopCart/BOOK/POR_BOOK_bkptec_pg2.htm
9689

I'm pretty sure Wayne Dempsey covers transplanting the larger 911 engine into a Boxster.

The thought of supercharging a post 2005 Boxster with resolved rear main seal issue seems like an attractive alternate. However I'm not sure that is covered in the book. Wayne did talk a lot about engine replacement/upgrade in the Pelican forum while writing his latest book.

An LS motor just seems wrong, sorry.

[D2W]

I'm sitting on the fence on the LS transplant. The porsche motors while a great design are impossibly expensive. You have got to have really deep pockets to match the hp output of a simple built LS motor. I love the 911, maybe the best drivers car ever, but if I get another one and the engine pukes it will probably get a V8.

[kach22i]

......... but if I get another one and the engine pukes it will probably get a V8.
I've decided to go electric if that happens, short range (2 hour joy ride driving time), and an emphasis on performance while trying to keep the weight down.

[JRL]

Kach22 I hear ya but to get the same amount of power from a Porsche motor would cost 4 times as much and be less dependable. I have had a handful of Porsche's and know all to well the cost :(

A buddy is just finishing his 914 / LS conversion - it is beyond STUPID fast - it is OMG crazy fast. A Boxster S with 500 HP would be equally insane.

[D2W]

Superlite posted a photo of their full size clay model. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Superlite-Cars/187464421283849 It looks pretty good, I have no idea what the performance specs might be or projected finished cost, but the daily drivability with the production car center section should be nice.

[blueafro]

Superlite posted a photo of their full size clay model. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Superlite-Cars/187464421283849 It looks pretty good, I have no idea what the performance specs might be or projected finished cost, but the daily drivability with the production car center section should be nice.

From some of the other photos on the GT40s forum, it looks like it uses 7th generation Celica headlights like another ongoing kit development which uses a production car center section. Seems to be a bit of a trend.

[D2W]

From some of the other photos on the GT40s forum, it looks like it uses 7th generation Celica headlights like another ongoing kit development which uses a production car center section. Seems to be a bit of a trend.

Agreed, I question the performance potential of using the existing center section with the top cut off, but with the top on chassis rigidity could be quite high with the penalty of higher weight over a fully tube framed car. However its hard to argue the benefits of the fit and finish and existance of the production cars hvac systems in the interior.

[Xusia]

Agreed, I question the performance potential of using the existing center section with the top cut off, but with the top on chassis rigidity could be quite high with the penalty of higher weight over a fully tube framed car. However its hard to argue the benefits of the fit and finish and existance of the production cars hvac systems in the interior.

If a well appointed interior is a priority, then it seems like a good solution. Personally, I'd rather have a stiff, safe frame, and an easier build (accurately cutting the donor down seems like a real pain and not easily done with common tools...). As long as I figure out a way to add A/C, and an audio system, I can live with a spartan interior. In fact, it sounds appealing just from an "easy to clean" standpoint!

[wallace18]

It would be nice if the 818 could use the donors hvac.

[shim2]

I don't see why you couldn't. You'd have to fabricate custom hard lines for the a/c and create routing paths. hvac systems aren't really that complicated. I think it really boils down to are you going to be driving the car that much to put forth the effort it would take.

[Xusia]

Yes! :D

[Nelff]

A/C and heat aren't a big deal. There are enough Street Rod suppliers that off the shelf units cold be used with out much difficulty. Oh, and NAPA will fab up any A/C line that you need in store...

[shim2]

From the email reply from FF, the 818 is going to be using all of the harnesses from the impreza so in theory swapping over the stock hvac system shouldn't be all that difficult. Unfortunately the compressor is going to be way in the back with the condenser up front with the radiator and evaporator in cabin you're definitely going have to do some custom lines for it to work. I think that will be about as difficult as it will get. That and figuring out a place to put the controls for it or wiring up some simple controls will be a bit of a challenge.

I honestly think it's worth extra time and effort to have a nice cool cabin when you're driving around in 90+ heat. I don't think it would add too much weight either.

[wallace18]

The dash area would have to be designed for the donor HVAC with this in mind. Otherwise a custom evap/heater core asembly would be needed. That is why I hope the designers are thinking of this from the get go. Lines are not a big problem and wiring is easy. But making the interior look like it belongs there is the hard part IMO.

[spaceywilly]

This nice 914 that is for sale really got me thinking about the 818. I love the lightweight, mid-engine setup, retro-cool styling (especially the basic interior), targa top, and of course that orange. This particular one just has the 2.0 4-cylinder and is not fast by any definition but still just looks like an amazing car to take for a drive on a nice afternoon. I'd take one of these over a "cockster" (Clarkson's words, not mine) any day. If the 818 can replicate the coolness of this car I'll buy one in a second.

http://bringatrailer.com/2012/05/22/seller-submission-1973-porsche-914-2-0/

[StatGSR]

The problem with the 914 is that it isn't good looking........

[Smitty911]

The problem with the 914 is that it isn't good looking........

Ouch, I've owned three of them, lots of fun to drive. I put the top in the trunk and left it there for 6 months. Rode in one with a 160HP 2.6 liter flat six, amazing, simple amazing.

Smitty

[NonProfit]

The problem with the 914 is that it isn't good looking........
I think the problem with the 914 is its big brother is such an undisputed icon...and...well...um...any full-size station wagon can give it a run for it's money (even when carrying eight passengers).

Even so, I wouldn't be opposed to having one in my driveway.

[PhyrraM]

When new, the 914 was viewed much like the Boxster is now. In another 20 years the Boxster will be viewed much like the 914 currently is.

[kach22i]

http://bringatrailer.com/2012/05/22/seller-submission-1973-porsche-914-2-0/
$8,000 paint job, on a $3,000 car....................I would have went with Maco and a after-market turbo or supercharger.;)

Maybe not, but the thought does occur to me. Given the choice, I'd rather drop a flat six into a Karmann Ghia over dropping a flat six (even a Subie motor) into a 914.

The 914 was and is quirky looking, sort of the original butterface.

The 914 is an icon today (in a good way), and it was the first thing I thought of as a base reference or comparable to X's design.

FYI: It made the 10 slowest sports car list recently.

http://autos.yahoo.com/news/the-ten-slowest-sports-cars-of-all-time.html?page=all

9) 1973 Porsche 914

Suggested By: dogisbadob

0-60: 12.5

1/4 Mile: 18.1 (at 74mph)

Why we want one anyway: "The 914 is no sports car. Not enough power." This wasn't written by some jaded auto journalist, spoiled by the speed of modern family cars. This was written by Motor Magazine in 1973. It meant something to be underpowered back then.

Regardless of its lack of oomph, these little mid-engined ‘70s Porsches look like nothing else on the road, they're affordable, and they'll keep you entertained on a twisting road, just so long as there isn't too steep an incline.

Photo Credit: Alden Jewell

9909

I'd love to have room in my garage for one, would look nice next to my 911.

[Smitty911]

Don't tell the guy at 914world dot com, that his 3.6 Turbo charged, twin plug 914 is ugly, slow or doesn't handle well. Here's a link to the car and build. http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=75381&hl=

I've also owned a Karmann Ghia, I'll take a 914 bone stock than a modded Ghia, any day and twice on Sunday.

I don't know where he got the Cheap to work on idea, 'cause it ain't so. Or where you can get a Daily Driver for $3,000. Me thinketh that he doth protest to much.

Smitty

[kach22i]

Or where you can get a Daily Driver for $3,000.
Smitty, are you referring to the $3,000 914 comment I made? Seven or eight years ago a guy I know bought a Porsche 914 for $3,000, great shape still had original paint (the yellow green they paint fire engines in). He also owned a 944 turbo. I offered to let him drive my 911 down Huron River Drive while I followed in his 914, but he never took me up on the offer. He later got throat Cancer and I never saw him again.

[NonProfit]

NADA (http://www.nadaguides.com/Classic-Cars/1973/Porsche/914/2-Door-Targa-2-0/Values) lists a retail of $13,600 to $22,200 for a 1973 Porsche 914 2.0.

[StatGSR]

^ a cars only worth what someone will pay for it......... NADA and KBB tend to drive the market in one direction or another, but are far from being "the rule"

[NonProfit]

^ a cars only worth what someone will pay for it......... NADA and KBB tend to drive the market in one direction or another, but are far from being "the rule"

Cars are a commodity and these folks try to determine current market value. Would you propose these values are driving 914's prices up or down?

[spaceywilly]

That one I posted the link to sold for $15,100

[kach22i]

NADA (http://www.nadaguides.com/Classic-Cars/1973/Porsche/914/2-Door-Targa-2-0/Values) lists a retail of $13,600 to $22,200 for a 1973 Porsche 914 2.0.
I checked that site for my old car, all those prices are double of what I thought them to be. Either the economy and market has rebounded like crazy, or it is just terribly inaccurate.

Like someone said, the price will be what somebody is willing to pay for it. I've been told public auction is the best measure of that (a real auction not ebay).

[D2W]

The 914 was always thought of as the ugly step child made with VW parts by the Porsche elite. Current views have changed however and people have come to realize what a great handling little car it is, even if it is underpowered and ugly. Prices have started to rise, and I think if it was a good looking car they would be much higher. Heck if it was good looking I would have one with an LS motor stuffed in the back. Scary fast.

[kach22i]

1958 Beetle with a Subie motor:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/680911-1958-autocross-vw-bug-subaru-engine.html

[DrieStone]

1958 Beetle with a Subie motor:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/680911-1958-autocross-vw-bug-subaru-engine.html

That Beetle is seriously cool. I wonder what gearbox he's using.

I've considered using a WRX drivetrain under my Lotus if the engine or transmission ever needs to be repaired (again). I figure the 818 will be a good training exercise for that.

[metalmaker12]

That one I posted the link to sold for $15,100
Representing ri a yea yea

[shinn497]

This is out of the price range but the BAC mono (http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/bac-mono-driven-2011-09-07) seems like it is on par pefomance wise with an upgraded track 818...without the body. though the make it equal you would have remove the extra seat and some other pleasures (or just kep it a go kart), and upgade the engine. A 1700 pound 400 hp version would be comparable.

[metalmaker12]

In my opinion nothing is really comparable if you consider price. For say 20k you are going to have a car that is damn fast and can keep up with cars way more expensive. Also this idea that turbos are not as good as superchargers in light cars is not fact, just opinion. So when one of you actually tune build and retune a H6 with a SC let me know how my dust taste. Offcoarse my stock Sti engine with a Cobb reflash(340whp and 375wtorque) will be all I have. These engines are turbo, because the smart Japanese Engineers R&D this setup for years to work best. Anything can be built guys, but it is not worth it unless you have deep pockets. This car is going to be so light that turbo lag and even heat soak will be very small. I have no problem with the Subaru turbo power delivery, it is a very board powerband and keeps hitting all day long

[07FIREBLADE]

Not really saying turbos are a bad thing. It's just that people may want different things. A H6 with a 5sp would be sick they sound incredible. I prefer superchargers because of the linear power curve that they provide. I've driven both and I just prefer the supercharger. No lag really. With the right setup you can get little to no lag for the 818. But it's not my cup of tea.

One of my more recent comparisons that I have had with the two systems was when I rode my buddies bikes a while back. One was a turbo charged Gsxr 1000 and the other was a supercharger zx10. The Gsxr was oh to kill you while the 10r was docile and tame but when you need the power you got it. It was like riding a bike with twice the displacement but with the same weight and handling.

[Xusia]

Also this idea that turbos are not as good as superchargers in light cars is not fact, just opinion. So when one of you actually tune build and retune a H6 with a SC let me know how my dust taste.

In my politest tone, what you have stated above is opinion and not fact. You asked what I thought was an honest question about why an H6, and I gave you an honest answer - one based on MY preferences and MY personal experience. Then you bash those who don't like turbos with the above comment.

The fact is every engine is different. I haven't personally driven a WRX, so while I admit it is possible for it to have the kind of throttle response and torque curve I like, I don't think it likely. YOU like it? GREAT for you! But please don't bash my preferences - even if you THINK they are born of ignorance. I may decide to drive a WRX and see what I think. Or not. Either way, I'm a big boy and can make up my own mind.

I know more displacement will deliver what I'm looking for. I'm not convinced a turbo will. That said, if you review my post on why I wanted an H6 you'll notice I never said anything about speed. Or a supercharger. What I said was:
*More linear throttle response & power curve (this is the #1 reason)
*Higher torque
*More displacement to work with, generally means easier to get more hp out of
*Sound
*The donors that contain the H6 are more family oriented, so finding one is good shape should theoretically be easier AND cheaper (WRX's, even wrecked ones, command a premium over similarly equipped Legacys, Outbacks, etc.)

I respect your opinions and preferences. Please respect mine. :)

[Flamshackle]

In my opinion nothing is really comparable if you consider price. For say 20k you are going to have a car that is damn fast and can keep up with cars way more expensive. Also this idea that turbos are not as good as superchargers in light cars is not fact, just opinion. So when one of you actually tune build and retune a H6 with a SC let me know how my dust taste. Offcoarse my stock Sti engine with a Cobb reflash(340whp and 375wtorque) will be all I have. These engines are turbo, because the smart Japanese Engineers R&D this setup for years to work best. Anything can be built guys, but it is not worth it unless you have deep pockets. This car is going to be so light that turbo lag and even heat soak will be very small. I have no problem with the Subaru turbo power delivery, it is a very board powerband and keeps hitting all day long


Lag has absolutely nothing to do with how light the car is. Heat soak neither. If your talking about how the torque off boost will pull this light wee car around quickly you would be more on the mark.

As a KEEN Subaru enthusiast and track racer I have to ask how many turbo cars you have had the pleasure of driving that are rear driven and weigh as little as 800KG?

Because your take on things seem a little off in your post above.

[bromikl]

The problem with turbos isn't always about lag. For me (and others who would prefer N/A) it's about consistent and predictable power response. I was out on my Buell yesterday. (1000 cc N/A) :D The streets in Milwaukee aren't always the smoothest. Making a turn in 1st gear can be downright dangerous without really predictable power. I found myself feathering the clutch more than once when I lost traction in the back. Remember the Ferrari video where the @**hat driver making a left turn spun out into on-coming traffic? That could happen any time you get more power than you expect.

In a straight line, it's usually no big deal. On a curve, you've got to have lightning -fast reflexes, or add lots of extra caution.

[flytosail]

That Ferrari video is why some people should not have "nice things".

[kach22i]

Wasn't it a Lambo?

[NonProfit]

Wasn't it a Lambo?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8Oi28S88JY is what I have seen.

I'm sure there are others.

[FFR-ADV]

How about one of the Radical Sportscar offerings as a comp for the 818r

As a full out track car pulling off the handeling of a Radical Sportcar SR3 RS would be a hoot. They claim it holds 2.5 G's cornering.... Wow that would put a smile on my face. Of course it is $93K to $125K :(

But at 210 HP and 570 Kg it would only take 301 HP to get the FFR 818 Kg into the same Power/weight ratio, and that seems within reach of a tuned WRX donor :) If the 818R could be made to handle like that...WoHoooooo.......:cool:

http://www.radicalsportscars.com/uk/showroom/radical-sr3-rs.aspx

[SccrMan13]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pgm8I0B8bY

This one is a lambo that is priceless.

Also im hoping the 818 has some things in comparison to the rossion q1

[bobzdar]

The problem with turbos isn't always about lag. For me (and others who would prefer N/A) it's about consistent and predictable power response. I was out on my Buell yesterday. (1000 cc N/A) :D The streets in Milwaukee aren't always the smoothest. Making a turn in 1st gear can be downright dangerous without really predictable power. I found myself feathering the clutch more than once when I lost traction in the back. Remember the Ferrari video where the @**hat driver making a left turn spun out into on-coming traffic? That could happen any time you get more power than you expect.

In a straight line, it's usually no big deal. On a curve, you've got to have lightning -fast reflexes, or add lots of extra caution.

That Ferrari is a 512bb, which unless it's a Koenig conversion is NA, so I don't quite understand your point. I'm a big NA fan myself, but you guys are grasping at straws here, you can make a turbo that has a very linear and predictable power band (my wife's Mini S) just like you can make an NA with a very peaky power curve (my Vmax gets crazy when the intake butterflies open). I prefer a more peaky power delivery which is why I like NA, as high revving NA engines are more peaky than all but massively boosted single turbo engines, of which the stock wrx/sti is not. I also prefer building HP with rpm over torque as you do not have to worry about breaking as many parts as the gearbox and differential are usually more sensitive to torque than rpms, so don't need to be built as beefily (and heavily) as if you build a torquey, lower rpm motor. I have/had all manner of engines and the high rpm, NA motors are just more fun to me. I like the large amount of torque my wife's car has at 1500rpm, but the power delivery is basically dead flat from 1500rpm to 55000rpm, no drama. Much more fun winding my 355 or vmax up to 8500rpm and feeling the rush of power come on around where the turbo car stops pulling. You really have to work the gearbox to keep them in the sweet spot, which for me is half the fun. The (stock) wrx and sti have similarly flat torque curves, though they may have a bit more lag? The mini has a twin scroll so there is virtually none.

I have driven a modified Grand National with the 3.8 v6 and large single turbo, and that thing had a bunch of lag, but it was predictable (hit the gas, wait 1.5 seconds and bam) once you got used to driving the car - and the torque curve was more a plateau than a curve once the boost came on.

Point being it's all in how you build the engine, turbo or NA, but my experience is that highly strung NA motors are more peaky than their turbo counterparts - which have their own lag concerns but that's fixable/tuneable to a degree.

[ddorrer]

Ok. So Nissan-Renault released spy photos of the A110-50. I have included some pics here so you may get ideas for the engine compartment and styling. Notice the crane photo of the underside.

Here is a video too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5zbw_JTbeEk

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[WonderDude]

I think the used car market is really the 818's main competitor.
People are going look hard at what they could have for the same money.
Porsche Boxster, turbo MR2, BMW M3, C5 Corvette, 3rd gen RX7's
Or what they could build for much less.
It's surprisingly easy to build an LS1 powered Miata these days, you can buy and bolt-on everything you need.

I think you nailed it on the head. My next car will most likely be a Boxster, 135i, TT, or something like the 818. Real worl usefulness may play a big factor in my decision.

[JRL]

A bit more $$ than the 818 but it will be an all weather coupe with windows - HVAC - weather sealed etc. You need to read the entire thread to get a feel for what the finished car will be like..............this might be what some of you are looking for in a daily driver.

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/rcr-forum-rcr40-slc-p4-mkiv/36893-superlite-gta.html

[07FIREBLADE]

DAMN... is all i can say about the ALPINE

[Mechie3]

Quick search for TR-42 didn't show anything. It's a RWD exo car using the Subaru motor/trans. These are more custom jobs rather than sold kits. I think he said rollers were ~$15k? Can't remember.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2093090

[kach22i]

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/649027-interesting-project.html

It started with a vintage Formula Vee Chassis. The chassis can run VW or Porsche 4 cylinder engines...

[kach22i]

http://wikispeed.com/
10712

Several different bodies being shown fit over a modular chassis, claiming $25,000 to build from scratch.

http://wikispeed.com/safe
10713

http://wikispeed.com/Affordable
10714

The SGT01 offers the following:

109 miles per gallon combined (US EPA cycle simulation), which is a record for a road-legal gasoline engine. We have tested the car internally, with Roush Industries, and while campaigning in the Progressive Insurance Automotive X Prize. We excitedly await official EPA rankings.
It's the lightest car ever to achieve a five-star equivalency rating for front-, side-, and rear-impact tests. We have built to NHTSA and IIHS specifications and excitedly await official rankings.
0 to 60 MPH comes in 5 seconds.
Current top speed of 149 MPH.
The ultra-efficient gasoline engine is mid-mounted for optimum efficiency of power delivery and minimal energy loss when turning.
4 gallon gasoline tank for a 400 mile range. No batteries, just ultra-efficient use of gasoline.
It's available for only $25,000.
The body is crafted in Maryland, the chassis built in Washington, the engine and transmission produced in Ohio, and the electronics systems built in Japan and France and the United Kingdom.
Mechanicals serviceable by any shop equipped to service current generation Honda engines. Electronics are being packaged into shoe-box sized mailable-modules for mailed service and repair. Modules slide out, providing access to all sides of most components, for ease of self service if desired.
Snow and foul weather stable handling with the engine directly over the driven wheels. Snow tires recommended for snow driving.

[Doc_FFR]

The problem with the 914 is that it isn't good looking........
Not sure that the 818 solves that problem IMHO.

I just got back from vacation. While visiting family I got to drive a Honda S2000 and a new Porsche 911 Turbo. The honda has an amazing tranny and an incredible drive feel. The Porsche has tons of power and is very refined. If I could put these two into a package that I got to customize myself I would be in heaven... as long as it was a gorgeous car.

Thanks for keeping this thread alive, I like to be aware of what else is out there. It's nice to know there are other guys like me on the fence about modding a used car vs buying a kit.

[shinn497]

Remember doc we don't know what the final 818 body is going to look like. Esp the street version. Be patient.

For what it is worth, there is most certainly any used car that can touch the 818 in specs at the price. This thread pretty much proves it. I really don't see how one could be on the fence about purchasing it over a used car.

[kach22i]

Gullwing America P/904 Carrera, because classics should never die
Gullwing America P/904 Carrera - Teamspeed.com (http://teamspeed.com/forums/porsches-past-general-porsche-news/70474-gullwing-america-p-904-carrera.html)
http://teamspeed.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=96081&d=1330866387
http://teamspeed.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=96082&d=1330866387

From GWA, the company that takes retro and makes it modern and cool, comes the latest addition to their lineup: the P/904 Carrera. This prototype is based on a 2005 - 2011 Porsche Boxster platform and utilizes the same 6-speed manual transmission and 3.4L engine with 217kW (295PS) and 291hp.

A throwback to the 1960's, the P/904 resembles the mid-engine Porsche race cars that were popular in that era. The Boxster platform will provide all the necessary modern amenities and key adjustments to the instrument panel, steering wheel and seats will give it that retro look of the original. ...........

The estimated cost of the conversion is approximately 70,000 euros. This does not include any additional customization or the donor Boxster, which can be purchased in RHD if required.

Nowhere near the same price range...............and a Boxster as a donor no less.

[kach22i]

For your file and future reference.

http://www.sterlingsportscars.com/Tube_chassis_mid-engine.html

The very bottom image is a mid-subie engine mounting. 500 hp?

http://www.sterlingsportscars.com/index.html

Our new round tube race chassis is built many different ways or any way you want it. It was developed to accommodate a Subaru mid engine configuration. There are over 80 different transaxle adapter kit options for many other engines too.

I have no idea on pricing.

This is a very old kit car design which has been updated, not exactly a comparable but worth noting.

[Turboguy]

I may decide to drive a WRX and see what I think. Or not.

If you do, remember to bring a book along to read while you're waiting for the turbo to spool. At least back in 2004, they had MAJOR lag. Far, far more than the STi does.

[Xusia]

That's interesting. Based on what others have said - again, I have no personal experience here - there is less lag on the WRX because it uses a smaller turbo. The STi uses the larger turbo to increase top end HP, but which takes a bit longer to spool up increasing lag.

-OR-

Maybe you're being a smart @$$ like me! In which case, touche! :)

[Cj_]

Surprised the K1 Attack hasnt popped up in this thread.

http://www.b-racing.cz/en/k1_attack_kit_car_en

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