Body fitment on 3/4" front frame rails

[ThickCobra]

I have begun attaching the body to the frame. The body fits well in the back with all bulb seal on and the quick jack bolts align. But, the body hood lip does not sit down on the front 3/4" frame rails. To get it to sit flat I would need to enlarge the front quick jack bolt openings. Is this common?

[wareaglescott]

Someone will give better info I'm sure but I can tell you this. I took my go cart to Whitby for body install. I had put the foam strip on the rails as directed in the instruction manual. When I was at Whitby going over the car with the gentleman that would be putting the body on he told me "don't be surprised if the body is not sitting on your weatherstripping". That surprised me. So possibly you are ok. I am curious what others will say. Have not got my car back yet so I do not know what the outcome will be. That guy has installed quite a few bodies though so I did not really question it.

[GoDadGo]

ThickCobra & WareEagleScott,
When I did my first test fit of the body I experienced the same thing.
I called FFR and spoke to Dangerous Dan Golub and he told me that they tend to sit just above the 3/4" frame rail.
It would be interesting to hear from a few of the Expert Builders on this forum to know for sure.

Expert Builders,
You Know Who You Are So Please Let Us "The New-Bees" Know Your Thoughts!

[ThickCobra]

Interesting. I am a good 1/2" above the foam at one point. And, the instructions mention screws thru the bumpers will hold it down. That said, I don't like it as pulling it down places stress on the body.

[GoDadGo]

Interesting. I am a good 1/2" above the foam at one point. And, the instructions mention screws thru the bumpers will hold it down. That said, I don't like it as pulling it down places stress on the body.

What are your thoughts about maybe getting some Nylon Barrel Spacers from the hardware store to take up the gap?

At least the screws would be pulling down on the spacers if they were in direct contact with the body and frame?

It's what I'm thinking about doing so: What-Cha-Think?

[ThickCobra]

What are your thoughts about maybe getting some Nylon Barrel Spacers from the hardware store to take up the gap?

At least the screws would be pulling down on the spacers if they were in direct contact with the body and frame?

It's what I'm thinking about doing so: What-Cha-Think?

That would definitely take up the gap. But, I would guess most everyone encounters this. As for FFR indicating it should be slightly about, I'm thinking they are assuming slightly above the rail and the later added foam would fill the gap. But, a 1/2" gap with foam installed...I don't think so. Maybe others will weigh in.

[michael everson]

Most I have built have been about 1/2 inch above the rails. The only time I secure the body in that area is if I need to do it to get the hood to fit better.
Mike

[edwardb]

As Mike said, the body will be 1/2 to 3/4 inch above the 3/4-inch tubes around the hood. It's supposed to be that way. If you try to pull it down, you will mess up the hood alignment and also like have trouble with the hood hinges. FF supplies some cushioning material to put along the 3/4-inch tube to fill the gap. The instructions say to put screws through the body into the tube, but I haven't on any of my builds and many others don't either. It's not been a problem at all.

[GoDadGo]

Most I have built have been about 1/2 inch above the rails. The only time I secure the body in that area is if I need to do it to get the hood to fit better.
Mike

Mike & EdwardB,
1. Thank You!
2. Thank You!
3. Thank You!

ThickCobra,
We Got Our Expert Answer!
Two of them to be exact.

[Gumball]

Jay,

One thing you'll notice when working with the body is that a little push or pull at one end can throw off things at other ends. I wouldn't get too concerned about fitment issues like this until you have doors, trunk, and hood in place to check how everything works together.

I learned that when doing bodywork on these cars, its all about finding that compromise where it looks pleasing to your eye everywhere, not trying to get one area perfect and then moving onto the next.

[ThickCobra]

Thanks everyone for your input. One last question on this topic. The front of the body is supported by the new brackets secured to the directional outlets as well as the 4 quick jack bolts. Will the brackets support the body by themselves or do we also want the body to be resting on the bolts directly...as mine are?

[michael everson]

The brackets will support it. Heres what I would do. Order the front body grommets from finish line. Open up the body holes to fit the grommets. Get some 3/4 of by 1/2 ID aluminum tube from McMaster-Carr. This will fit better in the grommets. Cut the tubes to the correct length and install with the FFR hardware. Body will be very solid. BTW Finish lines shipping charges on these is ridiculous. Beware.

Here is the McMaster-carr part number 9056K33

Mike

[ThickCobra]

The brackets will support it. Heres what I would do. Order the front body grommets from finish line. Open up the body holes to fit the grommets. Get some 3/4 of by 1/2 ID aluminum tube from McMaster-Carr. This will fit better in the grommets. Cut the tubes to the correct length and install with the FFR hardware. Body will be very solid. BTW Finish lines shipping charges on these is ridiculous. Beware.

Here is the McMaster-carr part number 9056K33

Mike

Mike,

Thanks for replying. I have the grommets and tubes on their way and planned to do what you suggest. It's nice to get a supporting opinion. I will let you know how it works.

Jay

[GoDadGo]

Mike,

Thanks for replying. I have the grommets and tubes on their way and planned to do what you suggest. It's nice to get a supporting opinion. I will let you know how it works.

Jay

Double Ditto From The Dark Side Gentlemen!

You learn a lot from this forum if you just listen.

Thanks Again!

Steve

[boat737]

The brackets will support it. Heres what I would do. Order the front body grommets from finish line. Open up the body holes to fit the grommets. Get some 3/4 of by 1/2 ID aluminum tube from McMaster-Carr. This will fit better in the grommets. Cut the tubes to the correct length and install with the FFR hardware. Body will be very solid. BTW Finish lines shipping charges on these is ridiculous. Beware.

Here is the McMaster-carr part number 9056K33

Mike

I just HAD to go one better. I ordered Stainless tubing, 3/4 OD x 1/2 ID and cut to fit. (I'm pretty sure I got that stainless tubing from onlinemetals.com, Stainless T-316/316L Seamless Tube, 0.75" x 0.12" x 0.51".)

The 7/16" bolt was just a little sloppy in the tube, so McMaster-Carr to the rescue. I got some 7/16 ID x 1/2 OD plastic tube ( No. 2129T15 ) to slip over the bolt, and into the tube. That way there is no slop in the assembly.

I got all the stainless tubes polished. My first cut on all the tubes, front and rear, were from the FFR aluminum tube lengths. Once I installed them, they stuck out from the body more than I liked. So I cut the front ones down about an inch, and the rear ones about a 1/2 an inch. I think they look better, and just maybe the shorter stick-out will save my shins some day. Who knows.

I have the ********** front grommets, but they are not in the pictures. The rears I have oversized washers with rubber washers, no. 90133A053 I think, between the body and the stainless washer, inside and out. The thicker stainless tubing as well as the closer position to the body seems to make these very solid. And I really like that polished stainless look.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Late to the party but yes, the body will be about 3/4" above the front of the square tubes. Less than that and not only won't the QJ tubes hit the body openings properly but you'll be short on hood hinge adjustment.

Jeff

[ThickCobra]

Late to the party but yes, the body will be about 3/4" above the front of the square tubes. Less than that and not only won't the QJ tubes hit the body openings properly but you'll be short on hood hinge adjustment.

Jeff

Now I wish I hadn't trimmed the hood opening lip down to 5/16". The taller lip would have hid some of the gap. Oh well, we learn.

[GoDadGo]

Late to the party but yes, the body will be about 3/4" above the front of the square tubes. Less than that and not only won't the QJ tubes hit the body openings properly but you'll be short on hood hinge adjustment.

Jeff

Better Late Than Never!

Still Learning & Glad You Chimed In On This Issue!

[edwardb]

Now I wish I hadn't trimmed the hood opening lip down to 5/16". The taller lip would have hid some of the gap. Oh well, we learn.

Put some thicker and firmer black cushion in there. The gap disappears. I picked some up at McMaster.

[CraigS]

From what I have read over the years this changed w/ the MkIV body. My old mkII sits right on those square tubes but now they float above it.

[rich grsc]

From what I have read over the years this changed w/ the MkIV body. My old mkII sits right on those square tubes but now they float above it.

You are absolutely correct, the directions to screw the body to the frame rails are a hold over from the MRK II and III cars. You'll never get the hood to fit on a MRK IV if you pull the body down to the frame.

[ThickCobra]

You are absolutely correct, the directions to screw the body to the frame rails are a hold over from the MRK II and III cars. You'll never get the hood to fit on a MRK IV if you pull the body down to the frame.

Good to know, thanks for a little history. Also, the MK IV has 2 "u" shaped brackets in front that secured at the front frame by the quick jack bolts and the front directional opening so the front quick jack bolts float. So in effect, the "u" shaped brackets supports the body front.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Good to know, thanks for a little history. Also, the MK IV has 2 "u" shaped brackets in front that secured at the front frame by the quick jack bolts and the front directional opening so the front quick jack bolts float. So in effect, the "u" shaped brackets supports the body front.

Not exactly. Before FFR added the brackets behind the parking lights the quick jack tubes were split and sandwiches the body. A common mod was to reconfigure and uses the full length tubes along with the matching rubber grommets. I retrofitted several cars with this setup and it very securely locates the nose. IMO the parking lamp brackets are supplemental and as much for shipping purposes as finalpermanent mounting.

Jeff

[GoDadGo]

Jeff,
What is your opinion about adding a couple fo 3/4" pieces of square tubing, on top of the existing 3/4" frame, right next to the factory hood hinges?
This would be of course in addition to the "U" brackets & Quick Jack / Bumper Bolt JGromits.
They could be easily affixed to the frame with pop-rivets.

ThickCobra,
Not trying to Hi-Jack your thread, but man I'd love to improve on this little issue.
If we can have something solid holding the front of the cars up, then maybe the Q/J Bolts won't tend to droop and alignment of the body may be easier.

Steve

[ThickCobra]

Jeff, thanks again.

Steve, you may be onto something. I wish I had pics of this area on the model FFR built of the 20th anniversary.

Jay

[AC Bill]

I would be very hesitant to add any additional 3/4" square tubing to the existing frame. There is some finessing usually required to get the hood to fit really well, and something sold like aluminum would make that very hard to do. Shimming between the body and the 3/4" frame at the hood lip, (usually towards the front hinge area) is better done with some firmer rubber or nylon pieces. They can be shaved as needed to the correct size, for the best fit.

The MK 3.1 model didn't rely on the front quick jacks to fasten the body to the frame, nor did they use any brackets. A pair of button head bolts were inserted through the body in the brake duct openings, and attached directly to the front framing. The MK3.1 manual suggested using some additional screws along the hood lip, and into the 3/4" frame, but many of us purposely left them off, with no ill effects.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Jeff,
What is your opinion about adding a couple fo 3/4" pieces of square tubing, on top of the existing 3/4" frame, right next to the factory hood hinges?
This would be of course in addition to the "U" brackets

Steve,
My opinion... Unnecessary.

Cheers,
Jeff

[GoDadGo]

Steve,
My opinion... Unnecessary.

Cheers,
Jeff

Thanks Jeff!

Your Opinion Is Valued!

Steve

[edwardb]

Not exactly. Before FFR added the brackets behind the parking lights the quick jack tubes were split and sandwiches the body. A common mod was to reconfigure and uses the full length tubes along with the matching rubber grommets. I retrofitted several cars with this setup and it very securely locates the nose. IMO the parking lamp brackets are supplemental and as much for shipping purposes as final permanent mounting.

Jeff

X3 on this including what boat737 showed. I've done all of my builds using the ********** front grommets and matching oversized quick jack tubes. Not only does it look more finished it holds the nose very solidly. The new parking lamp brackets came with my Anniversary build, but I didn't use them. It was too congested up there since I also had mounting brackets for the splitter on the same bolts. Plus I didn't feel like it added much strength to what was already there using the grommets and tubes. Here are pics from #7750. This is with overriders, but would be the same with quick jacks.

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%20Mark%204%20Roadster%20Build/Final%20Assembly/th_IMG_2847_zps79ed5114.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/edwardb123/media/Factory%20Five%20Mark%204%20Roadster%20Build/Final%20Assembly/IMG_2847_zps79ed5114.jpg.html)

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%20Mark%204%20Roadster%20Build/Final%20Assembly/th_IMG_2848_zpsee450983.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/edwardb123/media/Factory%20Five%20Mark%204%20Roadster%20Build/Final%20Assembly/IMG_2848_zpsee450983.jpg.html)

Many of the comments seem to be concerned about the hood opening, lack of support to the 3/4-inch tubes, etc. Really, it's not an issue. With the body resting firmly on the firewall bulb seal and firmly attached at the nose with the quick jack bolts, and then the hood closed against the body either with bumpers or D-tube (or both) it's all buttoned up and really just fine. Mess around with this too much and you could end up with trouble getting the hood hinges lined up. One other factor not mentioned is the radiator sheet metal. The stock pieces also add some bracing around the nose. I've made my own pieces that fill a little better and are solidly wedged against the top and inside front of the nose. Those add even more rigidity, but it's also OK with them. I just like the more finished look.

[edwardb]

Jeff, thanks again.

Steve, you may be onto something. I wish I had pics of this area on the model FFR built of the 20th anniversary.

Jay

Tell me what you want pictures of. I'll post them.

[GoDadGo]

EdwardB,

Could you please take some pictures of the 3/4" tube near the hood hinges and around mid-point of the hood opening?
I'd like to get an idea as to how much of a gap we are really looking at and if something can be done about it.
While I don't exactly know what I will do, I would like the body to be as solid in the front as it is in the rear.
Also, I just sent you the Pay-Pal for the louvers!

Steve

NOTE: I'll be ordering the Gromits for the front and rear from Finish Line because I also like that "Finished Look!"

[ThickCobra]

The individuals contributing to this forum are outstanding. I went back and re read the thread and feel very comfortable with the approach I'm going to take. It could seem to some to be a minor item but in fact it is very important. Not sure whether it had been discussed in previous threads but I'm going to guess that many first-time builders, like myself, would have just plowed forward with securing the hood lip down which may have caused them a whole lot of issues with the hood fitment. After I got my head around, and are now comfortable with the fact that the quick jack bolts, positioned from the factory, support the front and rear of the car, it all makes sense. Remembering back to build school they mentioned something about the bolts orienting the body to the frame. Now I get it.

It appears the gap I have may be highly cosmetic, which I will address as my preference. I like the thicker foam idea by Edwardb. This is what makes this build unique and not cookie cutter. That reminds me, my wife made a batch of my favorite chocolate chip cookies yesterday...enough to hold me a week or so. Problem: grand kids staying over tonight and could loose a few cookies.

Steve: I received my grommets and sleeves from Finish Line yesterday and they look great. You will notice that the front oval holes in the body will only need a slight enlargement to fit the grommets. Which tells me the holes are where FFR wants them to be. At least for me. I do like boat737's idea to add plastic tubing over the bolts and in the sleeves. This will be my preference.

Edwardb: 2x what Steve ask for as to photos. I do remember you mentioning you took a lot of photos at the factory. Pretty cool.

Jay

[edwardb]

EdwardB,

Could you please take some pictures of the 3/4" tube near the hood hinges and around mid-point of the hood opening?
I'd like to get an idea as to how much of a gap we are really looking at and if something can be done about it.
While I don't exactly know what I will do, I would like the body to be as solid in the front as it is in the rear.

Steve


Hear you go. A little unfriendly locations to get decent pictures, but these give an idea. First is about the center on the DS, other is right behind the DS hood hinges. Really guys. Nothing you need to do here. Make it so you're happy to look at it. But it's strong enough nothing special is required. As I mentioned before, I found some black closed cell foam on McMaster that was a little more solid and thicker than the provided foam. Fills in and you really don't notice it at all. It's much more obvious from this angle. Standing up looking inside the hood opening you can barely see it.

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Misc%20Pics/IMG_1243_zpspgvzjepu.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/edwardb123/media/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Misc%20Pics/IMG_1243_zpspgvzjepu.jpg.html)

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Misc%20Pics/IMG_1244_zpsyr8yqvoe.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/edwardb123/media/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Misc%20Pics/IMG_1244_zpsyr8yqvoe.jpg.html)

[ThickCobra]

Hear you go. A little unfriendly locations to get decent pictures, but these give an idea. First is about the center on the DS, other is right behind the DS hood hinges. Really guys. Nothing you need to do here. Make it so you're happy to look at it. But it's strong enough nothing special is required. As I mentioned before, I found some black closed cell foam on McMaster that was a little more solid and thicker than the provided foam. Fills in and you really don't notice it at all. It's much more obvious from this angle. Standing up looking inside the hood opening you can barely see it.

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Misc%20Pics/IMG_1243_zpspgvzjepu.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/edwardb123/media/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Misc%20Pics/IMG_1243_zpspgvzjepu.jpg.html)

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Misc%20Pics/IMG_1244_zpsyr8yqvoe.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/edwardb123/media/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Misc%20Pics/IMG_1244_zpsyr8yqvoe.jpg.html)

Excellent pics. Many thanks.

[GoDadGo]

Thanks-O-Million!

I'm really thinking about the 3/4" square tube option mounted via pop-rivet next to the hinges with nylon barrel spacers (sanded down to fit) where each rubber snubber/bump-stop gets mounted. #10 Rivet Nut for each of the snubbers would work pretty well too.

As Alway Thanks For The Extreme Expert Advice & Assistance!

[boat737]

Hear you go. A little unfriendly locations to get decent pictures, but these give an idea. First is about the center on the DS, other is right behind the DS hood hinges. Really guys. Nothing you need to do here. Make it so you're happy to look at it. But it's strong enough nothing special is required. As I mentioned before, I found some black closed cell foam on McMaster that was a little more solid and thicker than the provided foam. Fills in and you really don't notice it at all. It's much more obvious from this angle. Standing up looking inside the hood opening you can barely see it.



Very nice Paul. Do you by chance remember the McMaster number for the closed cell foam you used?

[GoDadGo]

Gentlemen,

I'm not familiar with McMaster.
How can I locate them?

Steve

[carlewms]

Here is the web address ...

https://www.mcmaster.com

They are excellent in providing rapid service but it depends on what you order and where you are located relative to one of their distribution centers.

I live in Northern VA and have ordered stuff late on Saturday and received on Monday at normal shipping rates.

Carl

[Jdav]

Gentlemen,

I'm not familiar with McMaster.
How can I locate them?

Steve

www.mcmaster.com

But beware, they do not show you the shippng price until after you have ordered and even the slow boat shipping is fairly expensive (but quick). It definitely pays off to try to bundle your orders for anything you may need.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Thanks-O-Million!

I'm really thinking about the 3/4" square tube option mounted via pop-rivet next to the hinges with nylon barrel spacers (sanded down to fit) where each rubber snubber/bump-stop gets mounted ...

I will caution you that this may be one of those cases where trying to reinvent the wheel to make something "better" can ultimately make life difficult later (specifically for the body guy). Just sayin'...

Jeff

[boat737]

Gentlemen,

I'm not familiar with McMaster.
How can I locate them?

Steve

I didn't think you could build a car without McMaster-Carr.


I will caution you that this may be one of those cases where trying to reinvent the wheel to make something "better" can ultimately make life difficult later (specifically for the body guy). Just sayin'...

Jeff

Just let the body guy fix it. At least if his name is Jeff. The Jeff's can fix anything.

[edwardb]

Very nice Paul. Do you by chance remember the McMaster number for the closed cell foam you used?


Gentlemen,

I'm not familiar with McMaster.
How can I locate them?

Steve

The foam I used for the hood outline was McMaster 8512K96. https://www.mcmaster.com/#8512k96/=16w814b. The 25 foot piece was enough for #7750 and the Anniversary build. It's 1/2-inch thick but was thick enough to fill the opening on both builds, and is in the pictures I posted.

Haven't heard of McMaster? Heresy! I couldn't build one of these without them. Their website is easy to use, fully documents the parts they have (which is amazing), and for me with a distribution center near Cleveland, I always get the parts the next day. True they don't provide the shipping cost until after you order. But I find their shipping charges very reasonable. Pays of course to combine wherever possible, but typically it's near the actual UPS amount without a bunch of markup. Highly recommended source. I choose not to add up how much of my build budget is spent there. :p

[Norm B]

I didn't use pop rivets to hold the rubber snubbers in place around the hood opening. They won't allow you to adjust the body to follow the hood shape. I drilled and tapped the 3/4 inch tube for machine screws at each snubber location. I waited about a week after the final body installation, to let the body settle and find its final shape on the frame, then used the machine screws to match the hood opening and hood height. Once I had the height where I wanted it, I removed and re installed the screws, one at a time, with a little blue loctite on them. They haven't moved in three years.

HTH

Norm

[GoDadGo]

I will caution you that this may be one of those cases where trying to reinvent the wheel to make something "better" can ultimately make life difficult later (specifically for the body guy). Just sayin'...

Jeff

Point Well Taken!

I'll know when I test fit the body again if this is a good or bad idea.

Thanks for being the Devils Advocate on this issue because I've stubbed more than a few toes with my off beat build.

[AC Bill]

I agree with Jeff. This has really not been a complicated issue in the past. Re-read Edward's comments in the bottom of his post #29.

[rich grsc]

I will caution you that this may be one of those cases where trying to reinvent the wheel to make something "better" can ultimately make life difficult later (specifically for the body guy). Just sayin'...

Jeff

What, I can't reinvent the wheel and totally ignore the advice give here, go ahead and fix a problem NO one has had.. how dare you.

[GoDadGo]

But I Love Reinventing The Wheel!

https://youtu.be/_wnHDNgnNqs


Makes life interesting to say the least, don't you think?

[j.miller]

Let it float...da Bat

[GoDadGo]

The foam I used for the hood outline was McMaster 8512K96. https://www.mcmaster.com/#8512k96/=16w814b. The 25 foot piece was enough for #7750 and the Anniversary build. It's 1/2-inch thick but was thick enough to fill the opening on both builds, and is in the pictures I posted.
:p

Hey Sir EdwardB,

> I received the foam tape from McMaster & you were spot on yet again.
> It works much better & fills the gap very well compared to the material included in the kit.
> Thanks-O-Million!

Steve

[edwardb]

Hey Sir EdwardB,

> I received the foam tape from McMaster & you were spot on yet again.
> It works much better & fills the gap very well compared to the material included in the kit.
> Thanks-O-Million!

Steve

Cool! Glad it worked for you.

[ThickCobra]

I received the foam strip for the hood outline yesterday from McMaster-Carr. I placed the body on the car, with the help of Jeepurz, and it looks great. Completely filled the gap.

Thanks everyone.