Registration in Quebec, Canada

[Frank818]

Hello,

I finally create this thread. I am tryin to open up the path for registration in QC right now (I am the first, as per SAAQ). There are HUGE issues. QC is probably the most restricted place where to register a kit-car. The 818 is not a replica, therefore it's not designed to support 15 different SAE compliant lights following 9 different rules. I am updating my build thread on that, but once I find an opened door for 2 of those 15 lights that I still cannot find, I will update this thread and explain the entire registration process.

Currently the problem is with the SAAQ. FFR is aware, I emailed them with the horror story.

Until I find a solution, I highly suggest anyone planning on registring in QC to think about it 5 times really hard before you jump into your build. Not to mention that QC's build documentation is incomplete, so you actually don't know what's required to comply to.

Stay tuned for updates,.

[Lumpyguy]

Could you have it registed in Ontario and get a VIN. Then have the ownership then registered from Ontario to Quebec. People move there with there cars all the time. Maybe a Loop hole?

[Frank818]

Any car registered outside QC and imported to QC needs to pass inspection at the SAAQ. Whether it's from Ontario or Kentucky.

[BN]

Any car registered outside QC and imported to QC needs to pass inspection at the SAAQ. Whether it's from Ontario or Kentucky.
Even a know companies cars is very hard to register

[Coolspot]

Hello,

I finally create this thread. I am tryin to open up the path for registration in QC right now (I am the first, as per SAAQ). There are HUGE issues. QC is probably the most restricted place where to register a kit-car. The 818 is not a replica, therefore it's not designed to support 15 different SAE compliant lights following 9 different rules. I am updating my build thread on that, but once I find an opened door for 2 of those 15 lights that I still cannot find, I will update this thread and explain the entire registration process.

Currently the problem is with the SAAQ. FFR is aware, I emailed them with the horror story.

Until I find a solution, I highly suggest anyone planning on registring in QC to think about it 5 times really hard before you jump into your build. Not to mention that QC's build documentation is incomplete, so you actually don't know what's required to comply to.

Stay tuned for updates,.

Are U sure your 're the 1st? Olivier and his Father Jacques have their 818 at SAAQ since October... i'll ask him how it goes and get back to you...

[Frank818]

Jacques is not responding to my emails since May 27 2015, where he told me he's holding off on registration for an undetermined time.

The guy at the DMV (DESV here) told me he's the one approving kit cars and that I am the 1st 818. So I assumed Jacques didn't do it yet.

[Canadian818]

Isn't the tesla powered one in Quebec?

[Frank818]

No, Ontario.

[Frank818]

While I'm here.

Registration in QC is complex and very long in terms of steps. The SAAQ (QC's DMV) told me they have a long list of items to check (although not all are checked) at the inspection cuz they want to discourage as much people as possible from building a kit car by cutting corners. This confirms what I thought for a while: QC doesn't like kit cars and won't give any pass-through to them. If you pass inspection, you are God and you earn my respect, the police's respect and the SAAQ's respect. Like I said: a God.

High level you need to get your 818 pre-approved by the SAAQ's engineer at the DESV. There is an email you can contact.

How he approves? He will ask you pictures or many different things, discuss with you about lighting and other crazy rules and once he's convinced you can pass inspection. In a nutshell, you need to comply to the same rules a multi-billionaire manufacturer has to. The only good news is sometimes they can lax on certain rules, cuz they have a list sorted in order of priority.
He will "authorize" you to call an authorized shop by the SAAQ (mechanical inspection center) to perform the inspection. You cannot pass inspection without being pre-approved by the SAAQ first, as far as he told me.
Cuz the SAAQ will send a list of "things to validate" at that shop. This is car/project specific.
Before even getting there, you need to call your local police and ask to complete the form for (non)stolen parts. A "trained" cop (not all cops can do it) will look at your 818 and complete the form. This is were you need 100% of your invoices, just in case. Apparently, but I haven't gotten there yet, you will need to prove your engine and gearbox are not stolen. This is way much different than proving YOU did not steal the parts. I'll provide more details once I get there, but unless you have a serial number, a VIN and a certificate from the manufacturer showing that that VIN is assigned to those serials, it is virtually impossible to prove the parts aren't stolen. So my guess is the cop would stop at your invoice and not go any further. I hope!!
Once you pass the cop test and get at the inspection center, the center is supposed to validate a bunch of stuff, probably even start the engine and drive it, but will take more time looking at what the SAAQ wants it to look for. In some cases, the car could stay many days at the center. SAAQ decides.

After that step it's a piece of cake.


More info on:
https://saaq.gouv.qc.ca/en/vehicle-registration/hand-crafted-modified-or-rebuilt-vehicle/hand-crafted-vehicle/

If you read carefully the steps in that link, there are grey zones and contradictions. Which is also why you need to contact the DESV in the first place.


ANY frame mod can yield to questions by the SAAQ and if the mods are considered important to them, they will ask for an FEA on CAD SOLIDWORKS by an engineer and to certify your welds by a pro welder authorized to certify welds. Be very careful, the less you do, the better.

[Frank818]

Guys in QC, beware:


Tow hooks are not allowed.
Any weld that can affect force distributions on the frame may well require welding seam certification.

EDIT: Because FFR is not heat treating his frame, so that it's probably around 36,000psi for the metal they use, it's not required to certify the welds, except if it's something important like seat belts (and probably engine mounts). But for seats it's not required, the seat belt protects you one way and the rear FW protects you the other way, doesn't matter if the welds breaks in this case.

BUT, if the welds don't look good, like it was the case for me (I didn't weld it), they will ask to re-do the welds.

[Abgar]

So what i understand from this. Build it standard according the buildinstructions, have a complete administration of every part in your car, get it registered and then change it to your own specs??

[Frank818]

So what i understand from this. Build it standard according the buildinstructions, have a complete administration of every part in your car, get it registered and then change it to your own specs??

I have edited my above post.

Your idea is not bad, it'S a lot of work, but possible. That being said, you may drill holes or weld in some places where you won't need it after changing to your own specs.

I think the best is to still 100% to FFR's manual and make good welds where you need to weld. Don't change the frame, don't add stuff for important things like seat belts and probably engine mounts. I went too far with my drivetrain+wiring. It's very difficult in QC when you get out of the "manual", as I can see.

[Frank818]

1st 818 plated in QC today. It's not mine.
Took about 9 calendar days between DMV's approval and obtaining the license. That's a lot faster than the 2 months I thought it would be.


Here is my advice about building in QC:

Stay as close as possible to what FFR designed and how they build it.
The further away you go, the more the DMV will ask questions and pictures to stamp your solutions and that is where you get in the **** hole. You can imagine why I am as I have done nothing like FFR and I have stretched my solutions to the limits. The DMV doesn't like that cuz they are aware of the standard FFR car and they approved it as it is (except the below important missing items), but if you change engine, gearbox, electrical system and cockpit functions, IC vs AWIC, larger or taller tires, body extensions and modifications, etc., that is when you are screwed, you basically start from scratch with them and approving one solution at a time. A nightmare.

Stick with plain FFR manual and you'll be ok, apart from seat sliders, washer fluid, hood hinges and of course, 90% of the lighting. But those are SO easy to fix if you don't have to take care of anything else!

That is why I highly recommend building as is.

[AJT '33]

Hey Frank, I have bought a 33 and will be picking it up in September, any documentation that you have that you can share with me privately? We are staying to spec for this first one so I think your sage advice has confirmed what we were thinking. Appreciate the link to the PDF it will be helpful. Any other insights that you can provide? How much sis it cost you in the end to register your vehicle at the SAAQ? As well, are you insuring your vehicle as a daily driver or other classification? Again, appreciate anything you can provide. Thanks!

[Frank818]

Hey man congrats on that hot Rod!

Documentation is almost irrelevant, as 50% of the rules are in the engineer's head (which are still on strike). Basically ANYTHING that "looks" unsafe will be blocked. QC doesn't have the same definition of "unsafe" as anywhere else in the World, so do NOT copy American buddies, Canadian hockey folks or Australian Crocodile Dundee mates with big knives. We are in a lost World here where nothing is fun when you try to do what the SAAQ wants.

The best thing is to start off with the docs and info here https://saaq.gouv.qc.ca/en/vehicle-r...afted-vehicle/ (https://saaq.gouv.qc.ca/en/vehicle-registration/hand-crafted-modified-or-rebuilt-vehicle/hand-crafted-vehicle/), open up your case at the DMV so you can ask questions and then you follow FFR's manual and you should be almost ok.

You will have to add a front bumper on the 33 and the most difficult part might be the lighting. Cannot be more restrictive. The lighting is somewhat unclear in the docs and missing CRITICAL data that can totally change your solution.
I can't recall but I think on my build thread I have put up a table with the different rules. May not be 100% complete though.

The best thing you should do is open up your case at the DMV through the mail provided in the above link (DESV something). Then they will probably give you a list of things to follow that many of them are not in any other documentation. You will see the rules for the lights. Basically something like 15 different lights using 9 different SAE rules. Just crazy for a garage-made car.

Oh yeah one other thing, if you assume something when reading a rule or think of different possibilities cuz the rule isn't clear, ask the question. Or else you will most probably follow the wrong path and will need to undo what you did and redesign another solution. So frustrating.


Since it's not registered yet I don't know the exact cost, but I know it's cheap. There are a few small fees for the process like the plate for stolen parts and possibly the inspection or installing the plate, then of course the usual fees for the license plate itself. Costs aren't high enough to be bothered with, you have a lot more to think about than that. lolll

I'll insure as a custom car for occasional rides, but in the 33's case it may fall into the antique or Hot Rod classification which gives you a wider range of insurers.

[Frank818]

Ok, now that I've done everything and I am happy, I believe it's a good time to tell the other quebeckers how it works around here. This way you will KNOW what to expect, unlike me, so you won't end up with surprises and anger, which 99% of the time yield to waste of money and time.

It is a very long process, designed to discourage as much people as possible from building a car (that's what the DMV told me).

But it's a fair process in the end if you are fair with yourself, your build and the SAAQ engineer. It will pay in the end, trust me. But if you try to sneak something in, you might get caught bad.

Yes your are allowed to modify the frame without being asked for an FEA report (pricey!!), but it depends what you modify and how. I do not know the criteria here, the best is to tell the engineer. If you don't, like me, you have to pray he won't ask you questions. I was also able to design and weld my own engine/gearbox supports and he never asked a question about this. But YMMV, be very careful if you modify the frame, even the smallest parts. QC is not IN or MT.


First of, with an FFR kit you don't need to contact the DMV to get the approval at the start of your project (DESV department, email is on the SAAQ's website, search for "handcrafted car" or "vehicule artisanal SAAQ", most of you speak French anyway) . If however you plan on doing something out of the ordinary (something different than a Subaru engine in the 818, moding the frame, body, etc.), then I highly suggest you contact them and tell what you have in mind. This will save you A LOOOOOOOTTT of troubles later on. Trust me!!!

After you get your kit in a glider mode (wheels, s/w, no engine, no wiring and nothing else), I suggest you contact them to clear out what you have to comply to. The 3 documents they say you need to read are INCOMPLETE and WRONG. There is MUCH more to it and a few things are not right or in a big grey zone you need to clarify before you build. Also anything that would look not safe, you have to get approved. If you have doubts, ask him.

Pay a LOT of attention to the lights. These are the major issues with kit cars, especially the no-replica design of the 818 and especially its front end. Good luck on this one finding approved turn signals that will fit with almost no modifications, took me 40h to find them and they were a WAG. F*ing lucky I got.


Make sure you get your car "pre-approved" by the engineer, which means at the end when your body is on and everything working as a car, send him about 70 pictures (the engineer will tell you what he wants) of your ready-to-go car and if he approves, then you can move on to the next steps. Have the engineer be with your throughout your project, so won't need to re-do some of your solutions, like I did. That really really sucks and is very frustrating, especially when you pull 3000h on your kit.

So far no fees involved. The engineer is free! Cuz your TAXES pay for him, hahahaha. Well, mines too! :(


Now you're pre-approved and ready to go?:

- Contact the police (YMMV here, you might have to call 911 like me or a different number, depending where you live. It will be either a local police or the SQ. Sometimes you may be asked to bring your car to THEIR place, sometimes they will come at your place. The police will check your parts, normally the important ones only. Make sure you have a tracability on the engine and gearbox!!!!!! The best is to have a VIN for both. If not, serial numbers. I do not know what happens if you got neither. The police does NOT have any other means than you to trace your parts and make sure they aren't stolen. I thought they had a database of engine/gearbox serials so when a VIN (car) is stolen it automatically flags the serials as stolen. But they don't. They try to find the VIN based on the serial, but you can do the same. Call the manufacturer or the place you bought the part from, they will follow the same path. If you don't find the VIN, they will most probably not and approve your parts then). This service will cost you a certain amount, depending where you live. In my location it was $112 dead. BTW all prices are CAD of course. It may take a lot of time before you get your appointment, it depends. Could be a week, could be a year (a snowmobile once waited 8 months). This is the worst part of the process, the most unknown and impossible to plan any further.
- Then you need to officially weigh your car. This can be done prior to the police too. "Contrôle Routier SAAQ" is an excellent place, but mines also can do it, although for those you will probably pay.
- Once the police issues you the form, it is used to get your VIN. They will tell you but you have to send the ORIGINAL form to QC along with a $33 cheque. YMMV again but in my case it took exactly 5 business days to get the VIN back. You have to send a LETTER with some specific info in there, the police will tell you and the SAAQ's website does as well.
- At the same time you get the VIN, the "mandataire" will receive it too, cuz in the letter you told them to send the VIN there. They will call you for an appointment to rivet the VIN plate in place. You should ask to pass mechanical inspection at the same time.
- Then you pass inspection, pay a certain amount for the VIN plate installation and inspection (something like 35 bucks for the VIN, the inspection is around 250+taxes but I don't know if it varies from place to place). They may install the inspection's sticker at the same time or give it to you later for installation.
- Then you wait until the engineer validates your mechanical report.
- Once approved, you wait for the mandataire to call you back, you get your sticker, mechanical report and SAAQ approval (a copy) from them, given to you by the mandataire. The original of the SAAQ approval will arrive by mail to you.
- Then you can go to register your car. They should charge you the QST on the imported parts of the kit, cuz customs only charged you PST. And of course the std fee for registering the car.
- Then you have to get your car evaluated and send the report to insurers. This can be done before but the report needs the registration paper (green) in order to be completed.
- Once you get your insurance, you're off for a WELL deserved drive.


Make sure you got all papers and invoices EVERYWHERE you go. For example at the registration desk, the SAAQ's website tells you you only need 3 documents. But in fact your need like 7-8!!! Always bring all papers and invoices with you until you get your insurance and can drive the car.


One thing to note, all across the process, people are NOT familiar with kit cars. They know about "rebuilt" cars and antique cars, but NOT kit cars. You have to repeat 1 million times what your car is to make sure you don't go in the wrong place throughout the process. This is valid until the very end at the registration desk and insurers. It took me 45mins to register the car at the desk, the lady had NEVER done that in 20 years. And the insurer thought it was a rebuilt car and asked me to have a mention on the registration paper that says "rebuilt", which I cannot have and will never have, it's a kit car, not a rebuilt of an existing VIN. Be careful guys.

One last thing, FFR's frame number WILL be used at the very very very end of the engineer's process. You will have to prove what yours is and provide the number.



About 25 kit cars are approved per year by the SAAQ.

I could also list you the Indiana's and Montana's steps but they are only 1 step that can be done the day after you know your FFR's frame number, so I won't bother piss us off. loooollllllllllllllllll



Now go in your garage and build!!!!! :D

[13rooks]

Wow now in 2018 Québec, we need air bags... electric mirror (controlled inside) a sunshade.... so basically I can't construct one... to much to modify from the original plan... so much discouraged right now.... I dont know what to do...

S'il vous plaît... j'aurait tellement aimer construire cette auto...

[13rooks]

Ok, now that I've done everything and I am happy, I believe it's a good time to tell the other quebeckers how it works around here. This way you will KNOW what to expect, unlike me, so you won't end up with surprises and anger, which 99% of the time yield to waste of money and time.

It is a very long process, designed to discourage as much people as possible from building a car (that's what the DMV told me).

But it's a fair process in the end if you are fair with yourself, your build and the SAAQ engineer. It will pay in the end, trust me. But if you try to sneak something in, you might get caught bad.

Yes your are allowed to modify the frame without being asked for an FEA report (pricey!!), but it depends what you modify and how. I do not know the criteria here, the best is to tell the engineer. If you don't, like me, you have to pray he won't ask you questions. I was also able to design and weld my own engine/gearbox supports and he never asked a question about this. But YMMV, be very careful if you modify the frame, even the smallest parts. QC is not IN or MT.


First of, with an FFR kit you don't need to contact the DMV to get the approval at the start of your project (DESV department, email is on the SAAQ's website, search for "handcrafted car" or "vehicule artisanal SAAQ", most of you speak French anyway) . If however you plan on doing something out of the ordinary (something different than a Subaru engine in the 818, moding the frame, body, etc.), then I highly suggest you contact them and tell what you have in mind. This will save you A LOOOOOOOTTT of troubles later on. Trust me!!!

After you get your kit in a glider mode (wheels, s/w, no engine, no wiring and nothing else), I suggest you contact them to clear out what you have to comply to. The 3 documents they say you need to read are INCOMPLETE and WRONG. There is MUCH more to it and a few things are not right or in a big grey zone you need to clarify before you build. Also anything that would look not safe, you have to get approved. If you have doubts, ask him.

Pay a LOT of attention to the lights. These are the major issues with kit cars, especially the no-replica design of the 818 and especially its front end. Good luck on this one finding approved turn signals that will fit with almost no modifications, took me 40h to find them and they were a WAG. F*ing lucky I got.


Make sure you get your car "pre-approved" by the engineer, which means at the end when your body is on and everything working as a car, send him about 70 pictures (the engineer will tell you what he wants) of your ready-to-go car and if he approves, then you can move on to the next steps. Have the engineer be with your throughout your project, so won't need to re-do some of your solutions, like I did. That really really sucks and is very frustrating, especially when you pull 3000h on your kit.

So far no fees involved. The engineer is free! Cuz your TAXES pay for him, hahahaha. Well, mines too! :(


Now you're pre-approved and ready to go?:

- Contact the police (YMMV here, you might have to call 911 like me or a different number, depending where you live. It will be either a local police or the SQ. Sometimes you may be asked to bring your car to THEIR place, sometimes they will come at your place. The police will check your parts, normally the important ones only. Make sure you have a tracability on the engine and gearbox!!!!!! The best is to have a VIN for both. If not, serial numbers. I do not know what happens if you got neither. The police does NOT have any other means than you to trace your parts and make sure they aren't stolen. I thought they had a database of engine/gearbox serials so when a VIN (car) is stolen it automatically flags the serials as stolen. But they don't. They try to find the VIN based on the serial, but you can do the same. Call the manufacturer or the place you bought the part from, they will follow the same path. If you don't find the VIN, they will most probably not and approve your parts then). This service will cost you a certain amount, depending where you live. In my location it was $112 dead. BTW all prices are CAD of course. It may take a lot of time before you get your appointment, it depends. Could be a week, could be a year (a snowmobile once waited 8 months). This is the worst part of the process, the most unknown and impossible to plan any further.
- Then you need to officially weigh your car. This can be done prior to the police too. "Contrôle Routier SAAQ" is an excellent place, but mines also can do it, although for those you will probably pay.
- Once the police issues you the form, it is used to get your VIN. They will tell you but you have to send the ORIGINAL form to QC along with a $33 cheque. YMMV again but in my case it took exactly 5 business days to get the VIN back. You have to send a LETTER with some specific info in there, the police will tell you and the SAAQ's website does as well.
- At the same time you get the VIN, the "mandataire" will receive it too, cuz in the letter you told them to send the VIN there. They will call you for an appointment to rivet the VIN plate in place. You should ask to pass mechanical inspection at the same time.
- Then you pass inspection, pay a certain amount for the VIN plate installation and inspection (something like 35 bucks for the VIN, the inspection is around 250+taxes but I don't know if it varies from place to place). They may install the inspection's sticker at the same time or give it to you later for installation.
- Then you wait until the engineer validates your mechanical report.
- Once approved, you wait for the mandataire to call you back, you get your sticker, mechanical report and SAAQ approval (a copy) from them, given to you by the mandataire. The original of the SAAQ approval will arrive by mail to you.
- Then you can go to register your car. They should charge you the QST on the imported parts of the kit, cuz customs only charged you PST. And of course the std fee for registering the car.
- Then you have to get your car evaluated and send the report to insurers. This can be done before but the report needs the registration paper (green) in order to be completed.
- Once you get your insurance, you're off for a WELL deserved drive.


Make sure you got all papers and invoices EVERYWHERE you go. For example at the registration desk, the SAAQ's website tells you you only need 3 documents. But in fact your need like 7-8!!! Always bring all papers and invoices with you until you get your insurance and can drive the car.


One thing to note, all across the process, people are NOT familiar with kit cars. They know about "rebuilt" cars and antique cars, but NOT kit cars. You have to repeat 1 million times what your car is to make sure you don't go in the wrong place throughout the process. This is valid until the very end at the registration desk and insurers. It took me 45mins to register the car at the desk, the lady had NEVER done that in 20 years. And the insurer thought it was a rebuilt car and asked me to have a mention on the registration paper that says "rebuilt", which I cannot have and will never have, it's a kit car, not a rebuilt of an existing VIN. Be careful guys.

One last thing, FFR's frame number WILL be used at the very very very end of the engineer's process. You will have to prove what yours is and provide the number.



About 25 kit cars are approved per year by the SAAQ.

I could also list you the Indiana's and Montana's steps but they are only 1 step that can be done the day after you know your FFR's frame number, so I won't bother piss us off. loooollllllllllllllllll



Now go in your garage and build!!!!! :D


Wow now in 2018 Québec, we need air bags... electric mirror (controlled inside) a sunshade.... so basically I can't construct one... to much to modify from the original plan... so much discouraged right now.... I dont know what to do...

S'il vous plaît... j'aurait tellement aimer construire cette auto...

[Frank818]

Wow now in 2018 Québec, we need air bags... electric mirror (controlled inside) a sunshade....

Sunshades are in since at least 2010, that's not new. You can even use the yellow school bus type sunshades, plastic and smoked. That's what I got.

Now air bags and electric mirrors. Did you get that info from the DESV engineer? Anywhere else is not valid to me. He will tell what's really required. My 2014 documentation also mentioned air bags but that was not intended to kit cars. No mention on "electric" mirrors, though.