How to build a great 818?

[Clyde's Keeper]

I'm in the process of putting together an 818 and am wondering the best ways to spend my money. Having put together a MKIII roadster I know how quickly the cost can rise when adding all of the "must have" options. So far I have stripped down a 2006 donor car and am waiting delivery of the kit. I have also ordered the large brake kit because I have always wanted a car with "super" brakes. Also ordered some race seats with 5 point seat belts because it makes me feel safer in a small car with limited safety features. So with cost of the kit, donor, shipping and other options like the cool steering wheel and shifter, I have already exceeded $25,000.00. And I still need to budget tires, paint or wrapping, powder coating and all of the other nick nacks like fluids, timing belt parts etc. So my question is what additional items should be considered in order to make a really nice performing car. I am worried the performance of the stock engine and trans will not be enough especially given the brake and tire package I have on tap. I am thinking cold air intake, aftermarket clutch and after trimming the wiring harness down will need to have the ecu re flashed. That brings me to a specific option, I Wire wiring harness? This is a $2000.00 plus option but it will sure save a huge amount of time as well as upgrade the ecu and allows for just the electrical options I would desire. I have also been eyeing the cooling system pipes from Breeze because I am not a huge fan of the corrugated pipes that come with the kit. Limited slip differential?
Then the other question that comes to mind, even if I stop at $30,000 to $35,000, but I suspect it will get closer to $40,000, WHY??? Is this car going to be that much fun? I could go and get a used Porsche Cayman for this kind of money. I do absolutely love the build process but question the sanity in my thoughts. I want it to be the best I can build but that almost always means more money. After all was said and done, I could have bought a new Corvette for the money I spent on my roadster. I do love my roadster and I am very proud of the fact that I built it not to mention, in my opinion, it is beautiful. I has also been extremely reliable, with over 30,000 miles, not a single break down and the only tow was due to a flat tier. But there are days after a long ride, I get to thinking a roof and and air conditioner would be nice. That brings me back to the performance of the 818, I love the sound of the roadster. There is nothing like the sound of an American V8 at full song and the feeling of being pushed back in the seat as it effortlessly takes off from a stop and the the soreness in your face muscles due to the massive smile that has been plastered of your face. I suspect the 818 will be a blast to drive and I know it will be great fun to build.
Sorry for the rambling but basically I am asking what options need to be considered, will it be worth it in the end. As always, thanks for your input,

Robert

[07FIREBLADE]

It all depends on what you consider great. I'm in the 35k range and I'm not done. But being an early builder I wanted to make several changes since I've had the car. My major expenses were rebuilding the motor and trans, diff, big brakes like you but they are overkill in this car. I also bought an iWire harness this is money well worth it being spent. I've done the self diet didn't turn out great. I had a running car but still had a huge rats nest of wires. Many hours wasted for an inferior product. iWire has the harness building down to a science now. You tell us what you want and we wire it up, helps having 80+ 818 harness under our belt. Your money invested is never going to equal the quality you could get for similarly priced mass manufactured car. As you know its all about the experience and the pride we take in our work and cars. We are all a bit insane trying to build a kit car but that's half the fun.

[lance corsi]

My 818c has taken $45k out of my pocket, but I've built the best car I could. Corvette suspension all round, SBC drop in rad, dual pass, electric water pump, haltech ecu, rebuilt my own engine, footwell vents, wilwood pedal assy, Evans waterless coolant, dot 5 brake fluid, sparco seats, FFR leather wrapped steering wheel, billed shifter, removable engine cradle, bumpers, heater, defroster, padded dash & door cards, and still not finished! Got over 1500 hrs in it so far, and still have to build my headers, mount the turbo, and intercooler, along with my air intake box. Better get started!

[wallace18]

One thing you must consider. Will you possibly be selling the car in a year or 2? The 818 is a great kit and car IMO. However the resale value has been a little on the low side. Something to consider before spending a ton of money, IMO. You can build a nice one for 20-30K but to recoup that amount may be difficult in a sale down the road. JM2CW.

[lance corsi]

Never build one of these cars with the intention of reselling for a profit! Too many kits are breezed thru without future considerations, and most ppl will never take their car back apart to fix something the could've avoided in the beginning. Instead, you will see them for sale here on the forum, most being sold for less than the owners investment. Take your time. This isn't a job, its a project. There are no trophies for finishing quickly. This will be your legacy. Whenever anyone asks you about your car, take pride in knowing that it was built correctly.

[Hindsight]

This is a good question. Making a GOOD 818 that performs well is pretty expensive, but everyone has their own definition of good. Here are some of my notes:

I didn't like the:
- Tons of giant chrome hood pins (buy quiklatches)
- Fact that the engine cover and hood have to be complete removed and set on the ground any time you want to show the car off (buy/make hinges)
- FFR-Provided Exhaust setup (fab your own)
- Pre-made steel brake hoses with tons of metric to SAE conversion fittings (buy a roll of copper-nickel brake line and some M10 tube nuts, and a flare tool)
- Entire shifter assembly, from shifter to linkage and everything in between (If desired, make your own setup or buy Craig's)
- Donor steering wheel
- Using the factory airbox
- eBrake setup and location. I moved mine to fit where/how I wanted it. Partially had to do that because of the custom shifter I made. All of which required me to make my own console and eBrake mount.
- Location of ECUs and fuseboxes
- Frightening bump steer (Get the Baer Bump Steer Kit)

Some things to consider:
- You probably won't pass the broomstick test with the "S" model roll bar. You can cut the old one out and build a bigger one like Bob and I both did
- You probably want wheels and tires specifically sized for the 818
- If you have the old style front-end, you'll need to retrofit projector headlights since that is the only way to get a proper light pattern that will allow you to see.
- You'll need a surge tank or Boyd tank if you want to drive the car in a spirited manner, in order to prevent fuel starvation. You might even need it to get up a steep driveway
- If you want a good wiring setup, I would get a plug and play harness, or build your own. Not a lot of time but a lot of money
- If you want to lessen your chances of blowing the engine, then strongly consider and air-water intercooler and an air-oil separator or catch can (installed properly)
- Add a bleeder line on the aluminum coolant pipe on top of the engine - route it to the degas tank, so you can fill the coolant system without trapped air
- Driveshaft Shop axles if you want to do burn outs or run a ton of power
- High perf clutch and PP
- Nice brake pads and rotors
- Opensource or Cobb AccessPort and a custom tune
- Gauges or digital dash (oil temp, oil pressure, boost, intake temp, AFR, etc etc)


If you want to road race it, then things start to get expensive fast. Think: Dry Sump, remote oil cooler, full aero, etc.

There is a lot to say about brakes (currently my biggest area of frustration) but if you got the full wilwood kit with the pedal box and everything, I'm sure you will be fine so I'll skip my brake comments. Make sure you don't run the pads that come with the wilwood calipers though.

For what I have into the 818 (I quit keeping track after going over $40k and I don't even have paint) I probably could have bought something more capable that would have held value much better. A friend of mine recently bought a Porsche Cayman with a blown motor and put a brand new LS3 crate engine in it with like 480 HP. He has about $25k into it and I'm sure it's faster around a track than my 818 by far (plus I'm sure he could sell it for what he has into it). The only thing the 818 does better is that it gets more looks, and I did enjoy most parts of building my own car. Great sense of accomplishment and I do love the look and uniqueness of it.

[STiPWRD]

^^^ I agree with everything Hindsight said. The biggest weak points of the 818 are the gas tank and lack of air flow over the top mount intercooler. Spend the money on a Boyd tank and AWIC. I suggest taking your time with the build and upgrading as you go along. You can also recoup some of the cost by selling donor parts.

[lance corsi]

I agree with hindsight too except for the buyers remorse. I had been talking about just this sort of car with my friend for years. It embodies everything I want in my sports car and nothing else! Along with unique styling, light weight, nimble handling, and best of all, I can drive my car hard and still get around 30 mpg! Have your buddy with the LS3 try that! Add to that, I don't want OnStar, automatic braking, lane assist, internet connectivity, or paddle shifters. I like to drive and that is what I built my car for.
You cannot buy what auto manufacturers refuse to make, which is a reasonably priced sports car, basic, then add only what you want. Have fun with it, but build it for yourself, not what everybody else says you need.

[Clyde's Keeper]

As always, thanks for the insightful information and as well as the counseling. It would cost me way to much to have this stuff figured out in therapy. Now I have some follow up questions, especially in regards to Hindsights suggestions.
I am building the "C", is the air flow across the intercooler any better?
What/where is a good source for Subaru performance parts? Cold air intake, AWIC etc.
What about a performance exhaust system? The oem one is bulky and ugly, needs headers?
Please elaborate on properly installed air-oil separator or catch can
I understand the aftermarket clutch but what is "pp"?
If using the I Wire harness made to order, will additional ecu/engine tuning be necessary?
What is or where do I find information on "Craig's shifter and linkage set up"
Can you elaborate on "surge tank or Boyd's tank"? Boyd's appears to make fuel tanks, does he have a design already for the 818? approximate cost?(I see Boyd's is a vendor and has a tank for $520.00)
What kind of brake pads to use with the Willwood calipers?
With a complete Willwood brake kit, with pedals, does it use sae or metric brake lines. I have no problem making brake lines, kinda fun, most definitely do not want a bunch of adapters.
What are the most important things to be done during the initial build and what can be done after it is built?
I know this is not a good investment, I don't plan on selling soon and wouldn't even expect to make a profit. I do want to make a car the looks good and performs really well. I am worried that this will be nearly as expensive as a roadster and not perform nearly as well. It will have a roof and seat heaters though. I think I'll put seat heaters in the roadster this winter as well. I'm feeling toastier already.

Thanks again!
Robert.

[Innkeepr]

I understand the aftermarket clutch but what is "pp"? = PRESSURE PLATE
If using the I Wire harness made to order, will additional ecu/engine tuning be necessary? - YES, anytime you change stock perimeters - a tune is wise
What is or where do I find information on "Craig's shifter and linkage set up" - http://zerodecibelmotorsports.com/products/bell-crank-mechanism-5spd/
Thanks again!
Robert.

answers provided in your quote.
HTH,
"E"

[Hindsight]

I am building the "C", is the air flow across the intercooler any better?

I don't think anyone has tested it yet but my personal opinion is that the roof scoop should probably capture adequate air flow for the top mount intercooler, so long as you seal the ducting REALLY well.



What/where is a good source for Subaru performance parts? Cold air intake, AWIC etc.


Craig (Zero Decibel) and Wayne (VCP) both sell an AWIC kit. I would try sticking with A2A for now though, since you have the coupe. If it works, it will save you a lot of money, time, and weight. For subaru performance parts, there are tons of vendors: Perrin, RallysportDirect.com, IAG Performance, and Wayne @ VCP is a dealer for most all of them.



What about a performance exhaust system? The oem one is bulky and ugly, needs headers?


No one will see the OEM setup. You can get a header from any of the vendors above but the Perrin E4 header is the only header that doesn't drop below the bottom of the frame. You will lose the unique Subaru sound if you get an equal length header though, just FYI.



Please elaborate on properly installed air-oil separator or catch can


Subaru engines can have a fair amount of blow-by. The result, using the stock PVC setup, is that you get oil inside your intake piping and intercooler. Oil on the inside of the intercooler will greatly reduce it's efficiency and in addition, oil vapor going into the engine reduces the octane rating of your fuel/air mixture which can cause detonation. An AOS and a catch can both remove oil vapor from the crankcase and prevent it from going to the intake, but the AOS allows the condensed oil to drain back into the crankcase whereas the catch can just holds it there and you have to dump it periodically. A properly installed AOS means the drain line out the bottom slopes down the whole way to the crankcase and never goes up, and that the AOS is the highest point in the cooling system (if you get the kind that has a coolant hose going through it to heat it up). I have details about how I did mine in my build thread. Required me to fabricate a custom bracket for it, and also fabricate a new coolant degas tank for the engine and mount it up on top of the frame rail in the engine cover hump.



I understand the aftermarket clutch but what is "pp"?


Pressure Plate



If using the I Wire harness made to order, will additional ecu/engine tuning be necessary?


Not necessary no. But you can gain a lot of addition power if you get a tune.



What is or where do I find information on "Craig's shifter and linkage set up"


Here:
http://zerodecibelmotorsports.com/products/bell-crank-mechanism-5spd/
And search the forum for it as well, to see addition pics and notes about the Toyota MR2 shifter



Can you elaborate on "surge tank or Boyd's tank"? Boyd's appears to make fuel tanks, does he have a design already for the 818? approximate cost?(I see Boyd's is a vendor and has a tank for $520.00)


A surge tank is something you add on to your existing gas tank. Can be put inside or outside, but most go on the outside. It's just a small round tank that holds a liter or two of fuel and it has an additional fuel pump inside it. It's usually tall and narrow. The fuel pump in your main tank just keeps this surge tank full, and the pump in the surge tank never starves in a corner or under acceleration because there is never any air inside the surge tank. Google "Fuel Surge Tank" to really understand it and the plumbing. Boyd does have an 818 tank and the cost is about $500. It is listed on their website (Boyd Welding).



What kind of brake pads to use with the Willwood calipers?


I forget now but search Plavan's 818R build thread. He found some pads that worked outstanding with the Wilwood brakes.



With a complete Willwood brake kit, with pedals, does it use sae or metric brake lines. I have no problem making brake lines, kinda fun, most definitely do not want a bunch of adapters.


That is a good question! I don't know the answer to that. If the wilwood components use SAE fittings, I'd still make my own lines.... I'd just use SAE fittings on one end and metric on the other.



What are the most important things to be done during the initial build and what can be done after it is built?


I'd do most everything you can up-front. It's a pain to go back and re-do things after the fact. But that's just me. Some like doing it quick, so they can get it on the road, then go back later and fine tune. My issue is that if I do things that way, I often never get around to going back and actually doing the fine tuning and then I lose interest. I've actually seen that happen with other 818 builders as well. So I say, do it all up front, the right way.

[Mechie3]

I'm Craig, my 818 focused side project company is Zero Decibel Motorsports. Check my signature for a link to my page. The shifter is currently out of stock though. Since you do have the coupe I would recommend staying air to air (even though I do sell an AWIC). It's lighter and less complicated and the coupe has the room to mount a larger top mount and better ways to duct air to it. The roadsters (S/R) can't fit ducting or a larger tmic without a lot of work. I'll second (third? fourth?) i-wire. I dieted my own (even documented the entire thing, did a writeup, and shared it) and in the end scrapped it and went i-wire. If you can build your own from scratch, that works too. IMO, the best way is to start from scratch, not diet.

[icky]

I feel that this car is a somewhat budget car. Build it cheap, with the minimum "must haves" that will be difficult to upgrade later. Then once you get it completed, add the stuff that you feel justifies the cost. Of course your money could go further buying an OEM car and upgrading it but that's not the point; these kit cars are different than what most people presue....

[STimedic]

I must say, I am really looking forward to building my 818C when the time comes. I've had the luck of owning and modifying my 02 WRX over the last 11 years, to include swapping in an entire 05 STi. I'm in the process of disassembling the entire car, selling everything deemed unnecessary and purchasing what I know will be best for this kit. I've been reading what a lot of you others have done that works and will happily apply your lessons learned to my kit!

I'm of the mindset that I won't buy the kit until I have everything that will be going into it so that I'm only doing it once.

[Innkeepr]

I'm of the mindset that I won't buy the kit until I have everything that will be going into it so that I'm only doing it once.

Exactly what I am doing. I tore apart my donor (04RS sedan) it was my sons commuter car (upgraded him to a 1 owner 04 WRX - hes very happy)
I planned on a new brakes package - probably the Power Stops that I used on the WRX. Bought an ej207. Little by little things are getting cleaned and powder coated.
There is a big list of stuff from the vendors that I will be setting aside. Craig has some of the best stuff out there ! as he is constantly adding more.
Electrical will be the last thing I do, MS3 and new harness.

Currently my MKII is in pieces, I went back and did things I should have done 10 years ago. I don't want to do that with my second build.

[STimedic]

My plan is:
-Sold 257, selling 6spd (It's an 05).
-Buy v7 207 and fortify it with ARP head studs, choice Tomei parts, coated KB EWG Holy Header, convert 7cm^2 Deadbolt TD06-20G to 8cm^2 coated turbine housing, new OEM timing belt kit, Moroso oil pan, pick-up and dual catch can, 160deg t-stat, etc.
-Radium fuel rail kit and sending unit, custom lines
-Bought a blown '11 5mt, will be doing a full PPG dog box, MapDCCD will read ABS signal from the rear wheels to provide speed signal. Contemplating reading all four. Will also receive helical LSD and have DSS axles done up
-Keeping 5x114.3 hubs and Brembos, Brembos will get stripped, rebuilt and powdercoated black, DBA 5k front rotors, 4k rear. Replaced bearings about 15k miles ago.
-Sold 05 STi cluster, bought Prodrive cluster and had it zeroed out. Also have a Sparco Prodrive steering wheel, looking for a Rapfix QR hub.
-Keeping 05 DBW harness and integrating necessary 207 plugs. This will be to maintain Cobb AP tuning and 32-bit ECU as well as the immobilizer.
-Rebuild 02 WRX steering box.
-MSI trailing arms, engine/trans mounts and lower control arms.
-Whiteline lateral links (recently purchased).
-Kirkey seats (unless I find an unmolested set of Sparco Prodrive buckets)
-AEM oil pressure/oil temp/boost controller/UEGO gauges
-Integrate a Spec-C roof vent and map lights
-AWIC
-Setrab 180deg thermostatic, 19-row oil cooler (have)
-Remote oil filter
-Select parts from Craig
Once everything has been purchased and done and is ready, THEN I will buy the kit.

[STimedic]

Who has integrated HVAC into their cars?

[frankc5r]

Who has integrated HVAC into their cars?

AZPete as a whole writup with parts list. Its great. PM him.

[STimedic]

Will do, thx.

[RetroRacing]

In our case, we went way past affordable, but we did learn some things in the process.
1. you don't need more power, it breaks things that are expensive, like transmissions, drive shafts and such. 2200lb car with 300hp at the wheels puts you in supercar land for power to weight.
2. do the maintenance stuff. Assume the bearings are bad and the seals need to be changed on any JDM engine. Not because they are, but because the engine has been sitting for 10 years without turning. Same goes for timing belt, oil pump, water pump, etc.
3. You don't need big brakes to start out. Figure this, a stock 2007 sti weighs 3100lbs. Your 818 should come in 900lbs less than that, so the brakes are way more than you need stock. Do use a Wilwood style pedal/master assembly as you will be able to dial in the brakes to your liking.
4. Get a limited slip.
5. Take your time and money on the shift linkage. you will be happy you did.
6. listen to the forum and do the oil separator the right way the first time. This is really important, as is the water neck mod to insure you don't cook your engine
7. airflow in and out of the engine bay should be addressed, you can't have too much. Heat wrap or ceramic coat every hot thing under the hood.
8. build the whole car, then take it apart and coat your frame! you will be happy you did!

[RetroRacing]

Oh, and spend your brake money on a stand alone or upgraded programmable ecu, that is where all the power is.

[C.Plavan]

If you are going to spend over $30k- Trust me, just buy a used Cayman S. (And Mod it)

[AZPete]

There's always one.

[ben1272]

If you are going to spend over $30k- Trust me, just buy a used Cayman S. (And Mod it)

Unless you want to spend over $30K AND have built your own car custom....

[C.Plavan]

Unless you want to spend over $30K AND have built your own car custom....

Everyone is free to do what they like. I was just answering the OP comments.

I built one, and sold it. I spent over $35k. Looking back (Hindsight....lol) A Porsche Cayman S would of been a better choice. Especially for the street (A/C, Heater, Safety, Comfort). To each their own. Again, this is in response to the OP topic, I did not pull this out of the air. Sure the build process is fun, but you can have fun modding any car.

[ben1272]

Everyone is free to do what they like. I was just answering the OP comments.

I built one, and sold it. I spent over $35k. Looking back (Hindsight....lol) A Porsche Cayman S would of been a better choice. Especially for the street (A/C, Heater, Safety, Comfort). To each their own. Again, this is in response to the OP topic, I did not pull this out of the air.

Just trying to be cute...no offense meant! :)

[RetroRacing]

Chad was our "Captain Kirk", going where no one had gone before, so I totally understand his point of view. All I know is, just during testing, there was no car on track even close, including a Viper and a brand new Cup car, AND, we were off pace by at least 5 seconds. Yes, it took us over $70k and 3000 plus hours to get here, and it will take another 10% of both to get us sorted, but when you get to pass a quarter million dollar car with it, the smile gets big and the suit gets tight.

[ben1272]

Chad was our "Captain Kirk", going where no one had gone before, so I totally understand his point of view. All I know is, just during testing, there was no car on track even close, including a Viper and a brand new Cup car, AND, we were off pace by at least 5 seconds. Yes, it took us over $70k and 3000 plus hours to get here, and it will take another 10% of both to get us sorted, but when you get to pass a quarter million dollar car with it, the smile gets big and the suit gets tight.

Having traveled the road, spending $70k, could you now arrive at the same party for less than $70k? What does that list of mods look like?

[C.Plavan]

None taken at all. I knew it would come up though. No worries.

[C.Plavan]

Chad was our "Captain Kirk", going where no one had gone before, so I totally understand his point of view. All I know is, just during testing, there was no car on track even close, including a Viper and a brand new Cup car, AND, we were off pace by at least 5 seconds. Yes, it took us over $70k and 3000 plus hours to get here, and it will take another 10% of both to get us sorted, but when you get to pass a quarter million dollar car with it, the smile gets big and the suit gets tight.

Or you could of built an NP01 and finished 6th overall at the 25hr with 185HP crank/167 WHP while using only 2 sets of Toyo RR's :P hehe. I hear ya and I get it also. :)

BTW there is an "Upgraded" motor package available for the now for the NP01- 240HP crank. Guys will be going for the overall win next year in the "NP02".

Sorry- a little OT. We should only be comparing street car cash outlay and 818's. Not race cars and 818R's

[RetroRacing]

Having traveled the road, spending $70k, could you now arrive at the same party for less than $70k? What does that list of mods look like?

Yes, by doing things once. We do have in that amount, three engines (one must have spares, you know), two transmissions, dry sump, 3 sets of rims, two sets of slicks, blah blah. The Chad is right in that it is hard to compare an R to an S. I think you could do a killer S for under $45k. We didn't use a doner, bought everything new and racey.

Oh, and yes the NP01 would be killer with 240hp, but still think we have a shot with 30 gallons on board, IF we can stay on track!

[icky]

I fully agree with both ReteoRacing and Plavin with the above! Only reason to go with a FFR 818 Is to have something unique....

If you're considering a road car or strictly racecar, there are better choices. That doesn't mean that the 818 doesn't have its place and I'm still happy with my purchase....

[shinn497]

thoughts on a six speed? yay or nay? Is the added weight worth it? I'm thinking of an ej207 here.

[Sgt.Gator]

"How to build a great 818?" "But there are days after a long ride, I get to thinking a roof and and air conditioner would be nice." "There is nothing like the sound of an American V8 at full song"

IMHO buy a stock low miles C6 Corvette Z06 or Grand Sport. You can find really nice ones for under $35K and they've about bottomed out on the depreciation cycle. Keep your MkIII for open air fun and when you have the urge to mod. If you must build another car look at the FF Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe. I was very impressed by them at SEMA.

[Mitch Wright]

To me building a great 818 or any other toy for that matter is build what you want. I have built the track car I wanted in my budget of just under $35K. I believe others have said a key to controlling cost is planning prior to the start of the build along with taking your time and asking a ton of questions. Would I do it again, a big yes, the car is really fun to drive. Personally I have had a blast with this build and already looking at what could be next.

[Pearldrummer7]

To echo what everyone else has said- it really depends what you want out of it. Chad has a lot of good points, but was also plagued with some issues that I think tarnished his experience. When his car did work, he was REALLY excited about it (I remember cracking a giant smile at his bold face, large font giggling mid-track day). It's really cool making something and having it work like you want to. I might be quick and closer to tempting fate on my track bike, but I get a satisfaction from the 818 that nothing has compared to. I've also learned a ton.

There are situations where the 818 is the right choice for you; it really depends on what you want in a car.

[ben1272]

kit with wheel deal: $10k
tires: $700
iWire harness: $2.5
2004 WRX: $2.5k (after $1k recovered in part sales)
seats: $400 (NRG)
heater: $300 (JCWhitney special)
exhaust: $200 (mild steel, local auto parts store components)

That's almost $17k so far. I have probably spent a few hundred more for paint and sundry parts. I dont expect to go over $20k, if that. I have only go-karted it a very little bit, but it seems more than capable as is for street use (stock WRX engine, no tune). I think limited slip diff is money well spent and I will probably add one. Paint is probably the next (and hopefully final) largish bill. Of course I may end up with a top at some point (add $2500). The costs sure do stack up fast!

I'm pretty sure any greater performance in this car is wasted on me! It is already beyond me and more than I need on the street.

-Ben

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Michael and I love our 818S. Here are some bullet points:
We hope to have our second 818 ready by mid summer17.

>2.5L, Td04 turbo, Stock 195WHP tune.
>Car has over 400 autocross runs, 7 track days (3 hour 250 miles per day), and a couple thousand street miles on it.
>Our car is more of an 818R as every month goes by.
>Wookie Compatible Kirkey race seats.
>Body is gel coat, maybe wrap in future
>2 cooling systems, first rear radiator did't work.
>AWIC system, TMIC didn't work.
>Front mount Fuel System works great. Stock tank didn't fit.
>front and rear internal bumper system. State required, and I Like.
>taller roll bar.
>Lots of suspension mods to fix tire rub and handling problems.
>Double size rear brakes to make it stop with stock pedal box.
>MR2 shifter with short cables, side shifted trans.
>self dieted Harness, Better than Iwire, IMO.
>Waterproof car electrical system. Carwash friendly roadster.
>Replaced engine.
>Removed Accusump
>Added dry sum system.
>on third set of axles.
>on second transmission.
>external snorkel for intake air.
>Single wiper system without trimming hood.
>Android Data logging system.
>self bleeding cooling system.
>External Liquid/Liquid oil cooling system.
>Remote oil filter.
>Bunch of additional gauges(see below).

The greatest thing about this car has been spending many hours working together with my son.
Cost>Priceless
Bob

62506

62507

[BC Huselton]

Plan ahead and then reverse engineer the build process. As an example, if you are going to have a front splitter and some sort of tow hook you need to add a structure to support it. This should also act to reduce the vibration and movement of the entire front of the body. Design the entire project as you envision it, Draw the structures required to support it and then Fit, Insulate and Secure the pieces so they do not rub and vibrate on each other.

Good Luck...Designing was one of the most enjoyable parts of the process for me. I had the Time!

62508

[STimedic]

I need to learn how to weld....

[Hindsight]

I didn't know how to weld until taking up this project. It has been invaluable. Best money I ever spent on a tool.

[turbomacncheese]

I need to learn how to weld....

Flux core wire-feed. Doesn't get any easier, and you can pick up a good-enough box for $100 at Harbor Freight, if you have a 20 amp circuit. Plenty of youtube videos belaboring the process, so you can teach yourself if you have a pile of scrap. I practiced on a bunch of brackets and bolts that I didn't need. Best thing I ever did for my toolbox.

[BC Huselton]

Being able to weld and paint are game changers in these projects. I had time to go to our Community Tech Schools at night to learn both. They actually let me rent their paint booth. Check that out in your area for support. I recommend not investing in a cheap welder...I made that mistake. Buy a legit Miller or similar MIG with gas, or get one that you can use on anything like the Miller 110/220 with a spool gun. Yes $800 but you will never need to buy another one!

Enjoy the Process, BC

[frankc5r]

I agree. Flux welders splatter all over the place. If you are
welding on car, you need a HF weld blanket to
protect your chassis and parts. Having gas to
keep oxygen out of weld instead of flux makes
for clean welds with little cleanup

[Mitch Wright]

I 100% agree with BC and Frank, I have had my Lincoln Electric 175 Machine for over 20+ trouble free years, I also had a Miller Syncrowave 250 Tig Machine I sold before a move. Big mistake, I now have a Eastwood 200 tig machine that works well but can use a water cooled tip when doing a lot of welding.

[redfogo]

I have a miller 211 it works amazing! Like everyone else welding has made this project a lot more easy. If you plan to install a harness or use after market seats really is no other way around the install other then to weld in your own brackets.

[DanielsDM]

+1 on buying a good welder. I bought a cheap 120V mig years ago. I can only use shielding gas on thin stuff, basically sheet metal. You can do thicker stuff with flux core but it makes a mess. I bought a 200amp tig and rarely use the little mig anymore. You can't go wrong with a Miller or Lincoln but there are some other brands that are not as pricey that work really well too. Make sure you get something that is sold at a local welding supply store so you know you can get parts if/when something breaks on the machine. I have a Thermal Arc Tig (by Victor) and it works great.

[turbomacncheese]

I agree that flux is messy, and that's why I went with the MIG. But flux is also a lot simpler, and I found it REALLY easy to learn on my own with bunches of scrap. I don't think any of us mentioned yet that most MIG welders can also handle flux wire, so if pretty welds are on the agenda down the road, it might make sense to pay extra for that from the get-go.


As far as "good" brand vs "generic" brand, I've watched those threads devolve fairly quickly and nobody ends up changing their minds. I think it's like most tools; if you depend on it for your paycheck, or if you'll use it as much as a pro uses it, or if money isn't tight, consider a pro tool. I've never been disappointed by hobby use on cheap tools.

For my part, I'll be sure to post on here if my cheapo welder ever dies, but unless I start going for several hours a day, I don't expect it to happen any time soon.

[Hindsight]

I agree with you about welders. The price diff between miller/lincoln vs something like an Eastwood is just enormous. The cheap welders these days have good reliability for hobby use. If money is no object, by all means, get a pro welder, otherwise a reputable hobby welder should do you fine.

[Zach34]

I admit, I'm biased - I'm lucky to have logged a lot of hours on a water-cooled Miller Dynasty 200DX (TIG), and a Millermatic 190 (MIG). I do not like flux, to say it softly. I think it's easier to learn with gas shielding. Flux sputters, pops, and distracts a novice from focusing on what matters - the arc and puddle shapes. It's just a question of investment. If this is the only welding you'll ever do, it's hard to justify the cost of a gas shielded setup. I knew I'd be doing a lot more than just one car build with mine, and they've been great investments.

The triangular tabs in the picture I welded with the Millermatic 190. I'm a decent welder, not spectacular. The results speak more to the machine's ability. It leaves almost no spatter (the little bit you see are from FFR's welds on the tubes).62543

[Innkeepr]

Learned to paint on my MK II, I have paint guns I haven't used in 10 years, but I still have them.
I bought a Lincoln Handy MIG this past summer - best investment yet. I too have not had great success with the Flux Core wire. Dirty, uneven, cant seem to get it to flow correctly.
Many of friends have said to ditch the flux core and get a bottle, easier to work with and better looking welds.
Another friend said with flux core " weld to hold, grind to show " - ya, that's about accurate.

[turbomacncheese]

I admit, I'm biased - I'm lucky to have logged a lot of hours on a water-cooled Miller Dynasty 200DX (TIG), and a Millermatic 190 (MIG). I do not like flux, to say it softly. I think it's easier to learn with gas shielding. Flux sputters, pops, and distracts a novice from focusing on what matters - the arc and puddle shapes. It's just a question of investment. If this is the only welding you'll ever do, it's hard to justify the cost of a gas shielded setup. I knew I'd be doing a lot more than just one car build with mine, and they've been great investments.

The triangular tabs in the picture I welded with the Millermatic 190. I'm a decent welder, not spectacular. The results speak more to the machine's ability. It leaves almost no spatter (the little bit you see are from FFR's welds on the tubes).62543

That is purdy!!

[DanielsDM]

62543
Looks great Zach!

[gpaterson]

Interesting topic. Like many others I started with a short list and ended up with a long list of additions. I am up to about NZD$50k which is about USD$35k and have certainly spend much more than I could ever recover but then that is not the purpose of the build. My estimated cost is in USD if you are interested.

Ordered a MkI RHD 818S kit with race race splitter, rear diffuser and side carbon-fibre panels. Full carpet too. High performance shocks. Packing case etc. All up cost was about US$14,000 or so. Freight to New Zealand plus taxes cost around US$6,000.

Firstly what did that I would do again:

Relocated the fuel take from behind the seat to in front of the front bulkhead. Custom made tank with baffled fuel pick-up zone with baffle foam. Used the donor fuel pump etc. No fuel starvation issues gave me 100mm extra leg room. (About $2,500)
Changed from the kit shifter to a MR2 shifter (rear-facing), shortened the shift cables etc. (About $350)
Relocated the intercooler to the rear with 2 x electric fans. Had a frame fabricated the also served as a mount (required to be mounted to the chassis in NZ) for the race wing. Race wing sourced locally. (About $2,500 all up)
Engine - did the cambelt and idlers etc. Baffled the sump to prevent oil surge/starvation. General tidy up without a full motor rebuild. I use a 2000cc JDM 2004 WRX 5 speed. (About $1,500)
Replaced the diff with a Cusco limited-slip and did the synchros on 3, 4 and 5. (Diff $450 and work outsourced about $1,000)
Upgraded the clutch. (About $500ish)
Upgraded the brake pads to Ferodo Race pads (FCP986R) (another $750ish) - absolutely no problems with brakes now using standard rotors and calibers (12" ventailated front 4 pot and 12" ventilated rear 2 pot)
Fitted 2 x Sparco EvoII seats and haresses. (seats and harnesses $1,500)
OZ racing rims and Dirreza ZII tyres from the Tyrerack (around $2,400 plus freight)
Imported a heater/demister from China ($45) and fitted the compressor and condensor from the donor ($300)
Modified the centre console to fit the tunnel. (bugger all)
Added head unit and Android tablet ($300)
Replaced the bonnet clips with something more befitting ($250)
Body work - spent a lot of time getting the body right, added extra support and fibreglass, grill, painted etc. ($8,000) - the biggest area of work required in the build. Just took a very long time.
Hours on eliminating the wicked bumpsteer. The steering geometry is the most serious design fault of the kit. That and the low roll bar. (Cost about 2 days of technician time so no change out of $1000)
As an early RHD kit, the factory just through in the right hand drive bit and pieces and hoped they would sort of work - well they didn't. My steering wheel is not in the right position (more an aesthetic problem that a usability issue to be fair). Getting it usable about $2,000 in fabrication including shifting the pedel box a couple of times. Hopefully they have got the RHD conversion sorted out now.
Mercedes Benz single wiper. (about $45 and a lot of frigging around).
Lots of other bits and pieces which I am too emabarassed to put a number on but I suspect my wife is keeping a running total.

What I did that I probably wouldn't do again
High spec shocks from FFR. While they are two way adjustable they require to be removed to be adjusted as they do not have remote cannisters. Most costly mistake I think. Plenty of high spec remote cannister coil over shock around that are far far easir to use. ($2,000 I think)
Probably buy the carpet locally - seemed bloody expensive for the few pieces I received.
Nothing else.

Yet to do:
Full compliance to use on NZ roads. I have done the preliminary check but will get the final check done in a couple of weeks. (US$1800 - $500 already spent)
Marine vinyl the dash and door cards (estimate $1,200)

The cost can get away on you so be careful.

Would I do it all again .... mmm not so sure!

62548
#220 at Manfeild Raceway without its engine cover (removed to refitted the intercooler pipe blown off under full boost! Since remedied.

[phil1734]

Is there something different between the NA and Turbo motors that prevent you from teeing off the heater core as a burp solution?

It's the same pipe, and you have to do something with the heater core piping anyway to loop it. Seems like a much better idea to add something in line there then drilling and tapping a thin-wall cast aluminum coolant line and running additional fittings and hose. I did this (and added an expansion tank - because I have no de-gas tank) and don't even have to burp my car anymore. Just fill it and go.

62549

[Mechie3]

I bought an Eastwood Tig 200 for $800 several years ago. Very very valuable tool. Not as good as my friends $3k lincoln, but much better than most in that range.

[Mechie3]

62548
#220 at Manfeild Raceway without its engine cover (removed to refitted the intercooler pipe blown off under full boost! Since remedied.

First I've seen this car! I like it!

[gpaterson]

In our case, we went way past affordable, but we did learn some things in the process.
1. you don't need more power, it breaks things that are expensive, like transmissions, drive shafts and such. 2200lb car with 300hp at the wheels puts you in supercar land for power to weight.
2. do the maintenance stuff. Assume the bearings are bad and the seals need to be changed on any JDM engine. Not because they are, but because the engine has been sitting for 10 years without turning. Same goes for timing belt, oil pump, water pump, etc.
3. You don't need big brakes to start out. Figure this, a stock 2007 sti weighs 3100lbs. Your 818 should come in 900lbs less than that, so the brakes are way more than you need stock. Do use a Wilwood style pedal/master assembly as you will be able to dial in the brakes to your liking.
4. Get a limited slip.
5. Take your time and money on the shift linkage. you will be happy you did.
6. listen to the forum and do the oil separator the right way the first time. This is really important, as is the water neck mod to insure you don't cook your engine
7. airflow in and out of the engine bay should be addressed, you can't have too much. Heat wrap or ceramic coat every hot thing under the hood.
8. build the whole car, then take it apart and coat your frame! you will be happy you did!

I totally agree with everything including the last point!

[shinn497]

Mind if I bump this. since I'm still curious if the added weight/rearward bias of the STI trans is worth the extra strength. Also I'd like to confirm that the Six Speed has an LSD built in right? So that takes care of that.

I Stumbled on a thread (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?19100-New-818-Configurations-Windtunnel-Tested) where jim discussed some of the results of wind tunnel and track testing. He mentioned that AWICs increase in temp for track use. And I am curious what peoples' experiences have been. To what extent would a stock intercooler suffice (esp. for an STI build) and what solutions would be needed for higher temperatures?

[lance corsi]

I need to learn how to weld....

Yes you do!