Coyote Being Phased Out in 2018? [Archive]

edwardb

12-23-2016, 11:51 AM

Don't know if this is new information or how reliable. But seems credible: http://fordauthority.com/2016/12/sources-say-ford-f-150s-4-8l-v8-to-feature-dual-injection-replace-5-0l-coyote/. Doesn't change a lot for our use of the Coyote. Lots of engines still being installed and used that have been discontinued from DD's. But would suggest that the current OE upgrade that was done starting with the 2015 model may be the last one. I know from people here in the industry that decisions like this are made years in advance because engines need to be regularly certified to meet future emissions and mileage requirements, and it's not a quick process for R&D and testing. Who knows, maybe the 4.8L mentioned will be the next "go to" choice for our builds?

GoDadGo

12-23-2016, 12:26 PM

Hey Sir EdwardB,

I really thought the Coyote would be offered over the long haul since that power plant has developed a pretty loyal following.

Hopefully we won't see that platform go by wayside; however, Ford's track record for maintaining engine platforms seems to always give way to their next "Better" idea. While I know most Ford Fans can't dream of anything else in their Roadsters & FIA's, maybe Factory Five will start offering an LS or LT option in the future.

Let's hope that Ford doesn't pull the plug on the Coyote, but only time will tell.

Steve

Gumball

12-23-2016, 01:49 PM

Well, there's been a bit of discussion on the various S550 Mustang boards about the Voodoo engine being built through 2020, so who knows, maybe the flat plane crank screamer will show up in a few FFR builds soon.

edwardb

12-23-2016, 03:20 PM

Let's hope that Ford doesn't pull the plug on the Coyote, but only time will tell.

Steve

Whether they do or not won't affect us too much IMO. Cars are being built today with Ford engines that haven't been in a production car for 20+ years. Just found it interesting.

Update: Another news article seems to suggest this information isn't true, and in fact they're developing a twin turbo 5.0 for 2020 and beyond. Who knows?

Benji

12-23-2016, 04:18 PM

When the Coyote first came out, didn't someone spot something in the casting that may have indicated they had already experimented with direct injection?

Jeff Kleiner

12-23-2016, 06:27 PM

My sources at FoMoCo report that they're going back to pushrods.

Jeff

CraigS

12-24-2016, 08:03 AM

My sources at FoMoCo report that they're going back to pushrods.

Jeff

I assume you were joking but I tell you, the Corvette engines sure make that look good don't they?

FFinisher

12-24-2016, 09:14 AM

My sources at FoMoCo report that they're going back to pushrods.

Jeff

I hear hoola hoops are making a come back too. ;)

juanfmc

12-24-2016, 10:10 AM

Let's hope that Ford doesn't pull the plug on the Coyote, but only time will tell.

Steve

I realize ANYTHING is possible, especially with government regulations, but...
IMO, I find it hard to believe Ford would have gone through so much trouble/time/money to bring back the "5.0" and make it a point to make sure it was still a 302ci, just to pull it less than 10 years into production. I would hope, at the very least, Ford Racing keeps it as a crate motor long into the future.

But again, anything is possible.

Juan
St Louis, MO

cgundermann

12-24-2016, 11:41 AM

Looking forward to seeing someone install this in a build:

http://performance.ford.com/enthusiasts/media-room/2016/09/first-look-at-the-5-2l-aluminator-xs-crate-engine.html

The new Aluminator does not use the flat-plane crankshaft which Ford wanted to keep exclusive to the GT350. Doing that meant integrating a cross-plane crankshaft because it changes the firing order which impacts valve timing.

edwardb

12-24-2016, 11:43 AM

I realize ANYTHING is possible, especially with government regulations, but...
IMO, I find it hard to believe Ford would have gone through so much trouble/time/money to bring back the "5.0" and make it a point to make sure it was still a 302ci, just to pull it less than 10 years into production. I would hope, at the very least, Ford Racing keeps it as a crate motor long into the future.

But again, anything is possible.

Juan
St Louis, MO

Since the base Coyote crate motors come off the same exact assembly line (Essex Plant, Windsor, Canada) as the production motors, and are in fact Mustang GT manual transmission motors, pretty unlikely the crate motor would still be around if not in a production vehicle. The higher end crate motors (aluminators, etc.) are built elsewhere as I understand, but still use a number of production parts. So their fate too would be in question. But none of us really know of course until a formal announcement is made. The initial news story seemed pretty sure, but subsequent reports not so much. Regardless there are tons in the pipeline, so they'll be around for a while.

Government regulations (emission standards, CAFE requirements, etc.) are obviously a big part of all decisions like this. I know for a fact that one of the reasons the Dodge Viper is ending production after 2017 is they were unable (or unwilling maybe based on sales volumes) to certify the Viper specific V-10 for 2018 and beyond. Heard this first hand during a presentation by a Chrysler executive some months ago.

myjones

12-24-2016, 12:45 PM

use the flat-plane crankshaft Doing that meant integrating a cross-plane crankshaft because it changes the firing order which impacts valve timing.
Flat plane stuff;
Cutting the intake pulses in half will effect the pressure waves in the intake tract and change the high and low pressure waves in the exhaust. Both of those will effect any turbo boost profile as well<>all fun stuff. When they went to COP it gave each coil 8 times as long to re-charge. The same will be true time wise for VVT in a flat plane motor. With half as many events the variable cam timing will be easier to manage. "The direct injection allows higher compression ratios" I see a flat plan twin turbo 289 with VVT in the future from Ford
Fun stuff
DB

AC Bill

12-24-2016, 12:51 PM

I heard the Viper being discontinued was because sales have fallen badly the last year or two. Less than 1000 units per year sold, since 2014.

edwardb

12-24-2016, 01:04 PM

I heard the Viper being discontinued was because sales have fallen badly the last year or two. Less than 1000 units per year sold, since 2014.

Right. Which is what I said in my post. Low volume + cost to certify engine beyond 2017 = production ended. Who knows. Maybe they would have continued to make them if the engine would still have been legal. I only know what the guy said.

flynntuna

12-25-2016, 12:34 PM

Development in engines and the ECU's that control them is just amazing.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/videos/a31223/how-camless-engine-works/

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a31657/koenigseggs-camless-engine-getting-close-to-production-in-china/

edwardb

01-17-2017, 01:24 PM

I guess it's safe to say the Coyote is not being phased out. Today at the North American International Auto Show here in Detroit Ford introduced the 2018 Mustang. The V-6 version is being phased out. But the 4 cylinder turbo and 5.0 liter V-8 (Coyote) both stay. No details yet about the Coyote, except that it's "upgraded" and will be direct injection.

Oh and a new 10-speed automatic transmission. I guess "how many gears" is the newest race. :eek:

charlesshoults

01-17-2017, 02:34 PM

I'm kind of interested in this myself. An article said that for the internals, just about the only thing carried over from the Gen-II to Gen-III Coyote is the crankshaft. The new engine revs higher and has a different intake. So, I expect the new engine will make more power than the old. I welcome it, although 400+HP in a 2300lb car is still a lot. If we see a new crate engine within the next 12 months, perhaps the cost of the Gen-II will come down, or perhaps Ford will do the dirty and discontinue the Gen-II. I'm anxious to see what the new engine looks like, how much different it looks from the old.

Jdav

01-17-2017, 02:36 PM

CraigS

01-18-2017, 07:41 AM

I hope this says that the 2018 version will be around for maybe 2-3-4 yrs so that gets us to 2020 at least. I wonder if Ford will be able to justify keeping an NA engine as they keep using the turbo V6 in more and more applications. I sure hope so. In a Fusion or Explorer I almost don't car about the engine. But after hearing the Ford GT run, I have NO interest in turbo V6 Mustang even if it were faster. Personally I think they should make the GT350 flat crank engine the standard.

Dlirium

12-21-2017, 11:16 AM

From the press release: Ford’s legendary 5.0-liter V8 engine has been thoroughly reworked. It is more powerful and revs higher than any Mustang GT before. This power increase was achieved with the first application for Mustang of Ford’s new dual-fuel, high-pressure direct injection and low-pressure port fuel injection on a V8 engine – delivering robust low-end torque, high-rpm power, and improved fuel efficiency.

http://performance.ford.com/enthusiasts/media-room/2017/01/new-ford-mustang-offers-sleeker-design.html

I'm going back and forth on the Aluminator vs the Gen 3 Coyote coming out next year. I know Paul (Edwardb) is planning the new Gen 3 Coyote, but my question / concern is if the headers, engine mounts, A/c, etc will all bolt up, or are these completely new form factors?

I hate to be on the bleeding edge on this stuff. Any idea if the new engines are "backward compatible" to the FFR parts?

edwardb

12-21-2017, 11:39 AM

I'm going back and forth on the Aluminator vs the Gen 3 Coyote coming out next year. I know Paul (Edwardb) is planning the new Gen 3 Coyote, but my question / concern is if the headers, engine mounts, A/c, etc will all bolt up, or are these completely new form factors?

I hate to be on the bleeding edge on this stuff. Any idea if the new engines are "backward compatible" to the FFR parts?

I don't think there's anyone (well outside of Ford...) that knows how compatible the Gen 3 Coyote form factor is vs. the Gen 2. There were some minor differences between Gen 1 and Gen 2, but basic stuff like engine mounts, headers, intake, bell housing, etc. were compatible. Hoping for the same on the Gen 3, but too soon to know. I keep hearing "second quarter 2018" for the Gen 3 crate.

Jeff Kleiner

12-21-2017, 02:06 PM

Paul and Dilrium,
I was looking at the latest Coyote on display at PRI with Dave Smith, Jim and Jesper from FFR along with Wayne Presley and Erik Treves. The concensus is that front dress and mounts should be OK however there may be a point of interference with the high pressure pump for the direct injection which is located on the cam cover of the RH bank in the vicinity of cylinder #3. As we went back and forth between the engine and chassis members of the Snap On Coupe the opinions were that it may be one of those "almost fits" or "just barely fits" deals. Jesper was going to get the CAD files from Ford so that he could marry it to the chassis files to see if it was going to require a frame adjustment. As you ponder your decision you might want to give him a call to see what he's determined.

Cheers,
Jeff

FFinisher

12-21-2017, 04:23 PM

My sources at FoMoCo report that they're going back to pushrods.

Jeff

You are ruining my Christmas.

I am going to fax you my list.

edwardb

12-21-2017, 04:52 PM

Jeff Kleiner

12-21-2017, 04:52 PM

I am going to fax you my list.

FAX machine is out of carbon paper. Break out the cam-corder and mail me the tape.

{You don't realize how close to my technologically challenged home this actually hits}

;)

Jeff

SteveHsr

12-21-2017, 11:59 PM

I assume you were joking but I tell you, the Corvette engines sure make that look good don't they?

Here's a pushrod option from Ford Performance Racing Parts- M6007-Z2363FT or Z2363RT.

Bobby Doug

12-22-2017, 10:29 AM

New Coyote engine in 2018 Mustang is running in the 11s with the 10 speed automatic.
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/running-11s-factory-stock-2018-mustang-gt/

Gumball

12-22-2017, 01:47 PM

cgundermann

12-22-2017, 03:52 PM

Since I bought the '17 GT350, I've been spending some time over at the mustang6g.com forum and they had this thread on the new direct injection 5.0 up from Modular Motorsport Racing....

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95638

Pretty impressive engineering! But man do I love the sound of your Voodoo motor! Exotic & nasty...

Chris

edwardb

12-22-2017, 10:06 PM

Just ran across the article about the Gen 3 Coyote crate. http://www.fordmuscle.com/features/pri-coverage/pri-2017-ford-teases-gen-3-coyote-swap-support/. Looks/sounds like the one Jeff mentioned seeing at PRI 2017. One of the pictures shows the possible offending high pressure pump for the direct injection in the #3 position on the cam cover. First pictures I've seen of the engine under that big UFO looking cover. Doesn't look like they try to have fitted coil covers like the Gen 1 and Gen 2 engines. Just cover everything up with the big cover. Coyote appearance is an acquired taste in any case. This one might be a little more challenging.

I had previously seen pictures of this mule in the lab at Ford Performance. Interesting, the sign says it's a former Hertz rental car.

GoDadGo

12-22-2017, 10:42 PM

Gentlemen,

If the Coyote will soon be a thing of the past, then I really think that Factory Five needs to consider the LS platform for the Gen-3 Coupe.
The amount of real estate that these setups require is minimal and can be purchased directly from GM as connect & cruise packages.
There is something to be said for keeping things simple and the LS platform is exactly that.
Shown below are a few viable options that can have the T-5/6 behind them:

http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/connect-cruise-powertrain-systems

LS376/480-HP Fuel Injected

LS376/515-HP Carburated

LS376/525-HP Fuel Injected

Steve

edwardb

12-22-2017, 11:19 PM

If the Coyote will soon be a thing of the past...

Steve

There was a rumor going around a year ago when this thread was started that Ford was going to discontinue the V-8 for the Mustang, meaning the Coyote. Hence the title of the thread. Obviously I have no way to know how serious it was or the timing, but apparently was discussed inside Ford given their ongoing direction of smaller turbo charged engines, etc. Even the new Ford GT is a V-6 as everyone knows.

But the V-8 remains, and in fact the Coyote underwent another big refresh. The third since it was introduced in 2011. It's not going anywhere soon.

Bobby Doug

12-23-2017, 12:35 AM

Gentlemen,

If the Coyote will soon be a thing of the past, then I really think that Factory Five needs to consider the LS platform for the Gen-3 Coupe.
The amount of real estate that these setups require is minimal and can be purchased directly from GM as connect & cruise packages.
There is something to be said for keeping things simple and the LS platform is exactly that.
Shown below are a few viable options that can have the T-5/6 behind them:

http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/connect-cruise-powertrain-systems,

LS376/480-HP Fuel Injected

LS376/515-HP Carburated

LS376/525-HP Fuel Injected

Steve

👎 🙀 🤣

GoDadGo

12-23-2017, 06:31 AM

There was a rumor going around a year ago when this thread was started that Ford was going to discontinue the V-8 for the Mustang, meaning the Coyote. Hence the title of the thread. Obviously I have no way to know how serious it was or the timing, but apparently was discussed inside Ford given their ongoing direction of smaller turbo charged engines, etc. Even the new Ford GT is a V-6 as everyone knows.

But the V-8 remains, and in fact the Coyote underwent another big refresh. The third since it was introduced in 2011. It's not going anywhere soon.

I truly hope that Ford doesn't ditch their V/8 because to me it would be Almost Sacralidge for a Mustang not to have 8 pistons dancing under the hood.
Also, believe it or not, I wish their latest GT would have had a V/8 instead of the V/6 even though I know I could never afford one.
It is like when GM Ditched the Camaro or even worse, when our Government killed our Manned Space Flight Program.
To me Hot Rodding all started with Ford's Flat Head V/8 was born so many years ago.

GoDadGo

12-23-2017, 06:42 AM

Bobby Doug,

Sorry, I don't Speak Emoji but must admit that I do Love Cats, Thumbs That Work & Pinkies Too:

LS Powered Type 65 @ SEMA 2014:
https://youtu.be/1wymc0EopgY

Steve

Bobby Doug

12-23-2017, 06:10 PM

Bobby Doug,

Sorry, I don't Speak Emoji but must admit that I do Love Cats, Thumbs That Work & Pinkies Too:

LS Powered Type 65 @ SEMA 2014:
https://youtu.be/1wymc0EopgY

Steve

Steve,

Since you are from Louisiana I figured pictures would be less challenging than words. After all, you are putting a Chevy in a Cobra. :cool:

Doug

Mark Eaton

12-23-2017, 06:44 PM

I certainly don’t pledge allegiance to any specific motorcar company. I just love cars AND internal combustion engines. I can’t say that the GEN 3 Coyote engine with that plastic toupee thing on the top appeals to me very much ��
Those LS engines do look pretty slick...��
And I have NOOOO problem with the new Ford GT V-6 engine ��. I’m sure that thing would rip a new Hole in anything that gets in his way ��

And I do speak emoji ��

GoDadGo

12-23-2017, 06:52 PM

Steve,

Since you are from Louisiana I figured pictures would be less challenging than words. After all, you are putting a Chevy in a Cobra. :cool:

Doug

We never learned Hieroglyphics down here in Swamp School since we've got No Caves to explore!

Enjoy these videos, all shot near our home, so you can see that I'm telling you the truth about our lack of caves:

https://youtu.be/sLxDdeJBGA0

https://youtu.be/66xTVy9jft0

https://youtu.be/REx2WJMMi3s

Santa On The Bayou Is Tonight Yalllll!

We've Got Our Shorts On & Bug Spray Ready!

Scotty's65

12-26-2017, 12:18 AM

With all the development money they put into the Coyote plus the continued upgrades I can't see Ford dropping it's "Halo" motor. Having said that they are discontinuing the 3.7 Cyclone V6 which really was am impressive motor, bought a 12 Performance pkg Mustang with that engine and literally stopped on the test drive to open the hood cuz I was pretty sure someone had just pulled the 5.0 badges off the fenders.the only issue I had with that motor was it just didn't sound right, like a V8.
If you go to the Ford Racing website you will find a bunch of variations on the old fox 5.0 and they stopped installing those 23 years ago (damn I'm old)
The 18 Yote makes 480 hp - my 14 Boss motor only makes 444!!! No idea why they didn't use direct injection from the get go.
I can't see them going back to a single cam push rod motor, the 4 cam is easier to tune for power and efficiency.
My Chevy And Mopar buddies love their LS and Hemi motors but even they admit my Coyote makes theirs look like dinosaurs.
When I picked up my MK11 in May of '03 Jim and I wandered into the skunk works where they were trying to figure out how to fit the 4.6 into the frame. At the time Schenke said "we can install the engine OR have a foot box but not both". They figured that out so they will figure out an injector pump.
The 'Yote will be with us for a while yet.

Scott