View Full Version : Opinions on By-The-Book Builds
Hello all:
I'm in the planning phase right now and hope to order a complete MK4 kit in the next couple of months. My intention is to build a nice street cruiser with all new parts. I've been reading through several of the amazing build threads and wish I had half the skills you guys have. That said, I will likely be building my car as close to the book as I can. I bought an assembly manual and have read through it a couple of times and feel confident that I can build this car by-the-book. Am I being short sighted with this approach or are there just some absolute must-do modifications/upgrades I should not overlook? I'm already on the fence with the steering setup (standard kit parts or a power steering upgrade). Any and all comments are welcome.
Thanks in advance,
Dave
wareaglescott
12-18-2016, 06:09 PM
Purely my opinion but I look at the manual as a decent starting point. Building one by the book will surely produce a car you will enjoy and be proud of. One of the funnest parts of the build to me is doing the little mods that make it unique to me. I don't want a car that is the same as everyone else has. Honestly I am already thinking that knowing what I know now how much more off book I would be willing to go if I build another one.
I started this build with basically no automotive experience and was intimidated by thoughts of doing anything more advanced than the manual showed. As the build progressed and I became more confident I became more willing to try a few things that initially I would have been intimidated to try.
I don't look at any mod is a must do. If you are satisfied with the kit as built in the manual then absolutely pursue that path. Build it however you want to and make it your own.
This forum is a great resource and a great way to ask for help when you need it. I will say at times it can be easy to get carried away with things because you see others on the forum doing it and talking like it is a must have. Some of the mods are great for others but just have no appeal to me. Don't do anything just because everyone else is if it does not seem right for you.
As far as power steering I have driven both although in limited quantity. I much prefer the power steering but again that is a personal choice.
CDXXVII
12-18-2016, 06:37 PM
If your intent is a by the book build I would strongly suggest build school.
I don't think there are any absolute must have mods with the complete kit.
If you go down the mod rabbit hole expect to spend a lot more money and time on the project.
Usudno
12-18-2016, 06:41 PM
I'm going pretty close to by the book. My only options planned are factory five supplied options plus a hidden roll bar attachment.
d_gatorfan
12-18-2016, 06:43 PM
Wait, Someone built one completely by the book? Not sure I believe it, lol.
Your build is one that I spent several hours reading through. Great inspiration for perspective builders with basic skills. I'm just not sure I have your aptitude or patients! I've done a lot of DIY home projects and expect this build will be much the same in terms of learning by doing. My home projects are far more complex now than when I started.
Purely my opinion but I look at the manual as a decent starting point. Building one by the book will surely produce a car you will enjoy and be proud of. One of the funnest parts of the build to me is doing the little mods that make it unique to me. I don't want a car that is the same as everyone else has. Honestly I am already thinking that knowing what I know now how much more off book I would be willing to go if I build another one.
I started this build with basically no automotive experience and was intimidated by thoughts of doing anything more advanced than the manual showed. As the build progressed and I became more confident I became more willing to try a few things that initially I would have been intimidated to try.
I don't look at any mod is a must do. If you are satisfied with the kit as built in the manual then absolutely pursue that path. Build it however you want to and make it your own.
This forum is a great resource and a great way to ask for help when you need it. I will say at times it can be easy to get carried away with things because you see others on the forum doing it and talking like it is a must have. Some of the mods are great for others but just have no appeal to me. Don't do anything just because everyone else is if it does not seem right for you.
As far as power steering I have driven both although in limited quantity. I much prefer the power steering but again that is a personal choice.
I've definitely considered the build school. If nothing else, I'll see a basic build first hand.
If your intent is a by the book build I would strongly suggest build school.
I don't think there are any absolute must have mods with the complete kit.
If you go down the mod rabbit hole expect to spend a lot more money and time on the project.
wallace18
12-18-2016, 07:01 PM
IMO spend the time and money to insulate the cockpit from engine/exhaust heat. That is a must IMO that is not addressed in the manual.
I was thinking along the same lines. Is there a good source of available FF options other than their on-line parts catalog?
I'm going pretty close to by the book. My only options planned are factory five supplied options plus a hidden roll bar attachment.
This is definitely in my plan. Is the stick-on insulation adequate or should I plan on a more extensive treatment like a ceramic spray/brush on coating as well?
IMO spend the time and money to insulate the cockpit from engine/exhaust heat. That is a must IMO that is not addressed in the manual.
After searching through many posts, I was beginning to doubt it myself. :)
Wait, Someone built one completely by the book? Not sure I believe it, lol.
edwardb
12-18-2016, 07:32 PM
You've touched on a subject I've commented about several times. There is so much bandwidth in these forums about modifications (and I'm one of the many that adds to it) that the impression could be the stock kit and stock build is somehow no good. That's not the case at all IMO. A complete by the book build will produce a solid car that you will enjoy building and driving. There are mods that definitely improve creature comforts, like insulation, vents, power steering, turn signal stalk, etc. There are other mods that are all about appearance, like finishing the aluminum panels, door cards, trim plates, etc. Plus tons of others. The decisions are going to be based on budget, how you plan to use the car (a track build could be very different than a street cruiser, for example), time for the build, and your interest level in making changes. All questions you need to answer. Personally I enjoy the challenge of mods and making it my own. That's one of the big attractions for me. But not every mod necessarily makes the final product any better.
Having said that, I would make a pretty strong case for the following: (1) Four wheel disk brakes. Avoid donor drum brakes. (2) Aftermarket rear suspension, whichever one you choose. Don't build the donor 4-link, for example. (3) I'm a huge believer in the FF 2-piece front spindles. Out of the box, they are vastly superior to donor spindles. Not an issue if you buy a complete kit. They're standard. (4) I'm also a huge believe in power steering. I've had both, and there's no comparison. Both for the reduced effort and also for the improved front end alignment (increased caster) they allow.
Good luck with whatever you decide. And welcome.
j.miller
12-18-2016, 07:38 PM
I have to concur with "build school" The tricks, tips and hands on will save you time (and time is money) and give you great confidence . They will tell you a lot of things that aren't in the book that cost next to nothing and increase drivabilty and better final product. You will see how things are done that may be vague or hard to understand in the manual.....and they are great guys. and no, I don't get a dime for pushing them.... When I build , three things I always push are 1. drop battery box in trunk. B.fan shroud from Breeze or FFMetal. 4. Separate reservoirs. I like the ones from Scotts Hotrods....da Bat
JIMOCO
12-18-2016, 08:04 PM
I am not as creative or knowledgeable as most on this forum. My thinking was the same as yours. I went with the complete kit and followed the manual step-by-step even signing each page as the task was completed. I did not make any structural modifications but did add a few of the items, some of which are noted above. I insulated the entire cockpit with heat resistant and sound deadening material. I added turn signals, back-up lights, door cards, a couple of additional gauges (oil temp and vacuum). a larger capacity coolant overflow, courtesy and engine compartment lighting and sound system. I also purchased my kit when options were 1/2 price allowing me to add a passenger roll bar, wind wings, sun visors, floor mats, front and rear bumpers. I did not add power steering, power brakes or any of the "creature comforts". I ended up with a car that I had great fun building and even more fun driving. It is a cruiser and not a racer. But even with limited additional items I get a lot of compliments and the car is as fast and loud as I need to have lots of fun. You will come to know that there are a few guys on this forum that are the gurus of the build process including j.miller, edwardb and Mark Dougherty. I would give their thoughts high consideration.
wareaglescott
12-18-2016, 08:06 PM
Your build is one that I spent several hours reading through. Great inspiration for perspective builders with basic skills. I'm just not sure I have your aptitude or patients! I've done a lot of DIY home projects and expect this build will be much the same in terms of learning by doing. My home projects are far more complex now than when I started.
This will be the same for you. You will be surprised how much you learn and you will be able to do a lot more successfully than you think you will be able to going in. This project was intimidating to me but at the end of the day it's not any harder than all your home improvement projects, just different.
Thanks for the advice. Your 20th anniversary build is another that I've spent many hours reading and drooling over. I really enjoyed your posts on the new IRS. If it were a bit more affordable, I would love to go that route, too. The 3-link is a no-cost option now with the MK4 kit, and FF sells a complete (less brakes) rear end for a reasonable price. I hadn't even considered drums on the rear and have looked for suitable brake kits and the FF option is priced competitively, so I'll likely go that route. I was okay with the stock (manual) steering, but after reading some of the posts on the improved geometry, I'm leaning toward power steering.
You've touched on a subject I've commented about several times. There is so much bandwidth in these forums about modifications (and I'm one of the many that adds to it) that the impression could be the stock kit and stock build is somehow no good. That's not the case at all IMO. A complete by the book build will produce a solid car that you will enjoy building and driving. There are mods that definitely improve creature comforts, like insulation, vents, power steering, turn signal stalk, etc. There are other mods that are all about appearance, like finishing the aluminum panels, door cards, trim plates, etc. Plus tons of others. The decisions are going to be based on budget, how you plan to use the car (a track build could be very different than a street cruiser, for example), time for the build, and your interest level in making changes. All questions you need to answer. Personally I enjoy the challenge of mods and making it my own. That's one of the big attractions for me. But not every mod necessarily makes the final product any better.
Having said that, I would make a pretty strong case for the following: (1) Four wheel disk brakes. Avoid donor drum brakes. (2) Aftermarket rear suspension, whichever one you choose. Don't build the donor 4-link, for example. (3) I'm a huge believer in the FF 2-piece front spindles. Out of the box, they are vastly superior to donor spindles. Not an issue if you buy a complete kit. They're standard. (4) I'm also a huge believe in power steering. I've had both, and there's no comparison. Both for the reduced effort and also for the improved front end alignment (increased caster) they allow.
Good luck with whatever you decide. And welcome.
This is where I get to start showing my inexperience. J. Miller, can you explain the advantages to the separate reservoir setups? I definitely like the billet pieces you recommend.
I have to concur with "build school" The tricks, tips and hands on will save you time (and time is money) and give you great confidence . They will tell you a lot of things that aren't in the book that cost next to nothing and increase drivabilty and better final product. You will see how things are done that may be vague or hard to understand in the manual.....and they are great guys. and no, I don't get a dime for pushing them.... When I build , three things I always push are 1. drop battery box in trunk. B.fan shroud from Breeze or FFMetal. 4. Separate reservoirs. I like the ones from Scotts Hotrods....da Bat
Thanks! That makes me feel a bit better. I was hoping that there wouldn't be any serious let-down in a by-the-book build. I will likely tweak things as I go, but wanted to know that the complete kit from FF will turn out a car that I can be happy with. If budget were unlimited, I'd probably do some things differently. How much of the "basic" kit can easily be upgraded at a later time if one chooses to do so? Things like adding Wilwood brakes later, for example?
I am not as creative or knowledgeable as most on this forum. My thinking was the same as yours. I went with the complete kit and followed the manual step-by-step even signing each page as the task was completed. I did not make any structural modifications but did add a few of the items, some of which are noted above. I insulated the entire cockpit with heat resistant and sound deadening material. I added turn signals, back-up lights, door cards, a couple of additional gauges (oil temp and vacuum). a larger capacity coolant overflow, courtesy and engine compartment lighting and sound system. I also purchased my kit when options were 1/2 price allowing me to add a passenger roll bar, wind wings, sun visors, floor mats, front and rear bumpers. I did not add power steering, power brakes or any of the "creature comforts". I ended up with a car that I had great fun building and even more fun driving. It is a cruiser and not a racer. But even with limited additional items I get a lot of compliments and the car is as fast and loud as I need to have lots of fun. You will come to know that there are a few guys on this forum that are the gurus of the build process including j.miller, edwardb and Mark Dougherty. I would give their thoughts high consideration.
Raceral
12-18-2016, 08:38 PM
I am one of the few that believe less is more. But as they say to each his own. The Cobra is a simple car. I am not a fan of bling. I think you will be very happy with a build by the book.
You can see a by the book build in the build section.
BEAR-AvHistory
12-18-2016, 08:42 PM
This is definitely in my plan. Is the stick-on insulation adequate or should I plan on a more extensive treatment like a ceramic spray/brush on coating as well?
FWIW There are a lot of choices most of them good. Mine were THERMO-TEC anyplace that faced heat including the inside of the transmission tunnel & inside the side pipe heat shields. Its pricy but works very well.
Inside the cockpit I used a two sided aluminum bubble core sandwich by Reflectix. Its an attic insulation from HomeDepot. It was glued in place with 3M-90 spray adhesive. The carpet was laid over this with 3M-90
Two summers on in Carolina Heat am happy with the choice. Car is typically driven everyday over 45*F with no rain.
For the base question the book works pretty well but something are not well thought out. One of the most famous is you should ignore the book on riveting the back wall of the cockpit before you rivet in the upper trunk floor section. Its floor first wall second if you really want to put in the trunks floor without pulling your hair out.
Would recommend you do a forum search as you prepare to do each section to see if there re any FFR dead end traps in the sequence.
My car is mostly 'by the book". Plan was to get it built & on the road. That said there are some extras that I built in as went along, this is pretty typical.
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=13899&pictureid=55881
Exterior is stock except for the pipe covers & Mike Everson's one piece radiator intake tract.
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=13899&pictureid=54653
Engine compartment is by the book except for the burp/filler tank for the radiator. The shiny material on the footbox is Thermo-Tec.
http://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/acurazine.com-vbulletin/850x566/80-t1_50ed8c4b004cc537681fcd6df293b357631033d7.jpg
Footbox in Thermo-Tec
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=9814&pictureid=44380
Rough fit on the Reflectex
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=9814&pictureid=46308
FFR carpet installed
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=13899&pictureid=54727
Cockpit is by the book expept fot the console, extra switches & door panels
Thanks for the response. The radiator intake shroud looks pretty clean, but it looks like the source you referenced isn't available any longer, or the website is down. I like the idea of these types of upgrades, and I've looked at wheel well liners as an example. The tips that I come across like the trunk panels are why I signed up on this forum. I've been creating a file of tips from the build threads I've been reading and will definitely be researching each step of the build before diving in.
FWIW There are a lot of choices most of them good. Mine were THERMO-TEC anyplace that faced heat including the inside of the transmission tunnel & inside the side pipe heat shields. Its pricy but works very well.
Inside the cockpit I used a two sided aluminum bubble core sandwich by Reflectix. Its an attic insulation from HomeDepot. It was glued in place with 3M-90 spray adhesive. The carpet was laid over this with 3M-90
Two summers on in Carolina Heat am happy with the choice. Car is typically driven everyday over 45*F with no rain.
For the base question the book works pretty well but something are not well thought out. One of the most famous is you should ignore the book on riveting the back wall of the cockpit before you rivet in the upper trunk floor section. Its floor first wall second if you really want to put in the trunks floor without pulling your hair out.
Would recommend you do a forum search as you prepare to do each section to see if there re any FFR dead end traps in the sequence.
My car is mostly 'by the book". Plan was to get it built & on the road. That said there are some extras that I built in as went along, this is pretty typical.
Perhaps one of the few, but definitely not alone!
I am one of the few that believe less is more. But as they say to each his own. The Cobra is a simple car. I am not a fan of bling. I think you will be very happy with a build by the book.
You can see a by the book build in the build section.
myjones
12-18-2016, 09:15 PM
This is where I get to start showing my inexperience. J. Miller, can you explain the advantages to the separate reservoir setups? I definitely like the billet pieces you recommend.
Separate reservoirs are safer because if one half of the brakes< front for instance, develops a leak you only lose fluid from that system/front reservoir. You will still have
fluid in the back brakes because they will have their own reservoir. That should be enough to get you stopped and still be in one piece to start looking for the failure.
Pretty cheap insurance IMO
I did the build school and it was worth every penny and every minute I invested in it.
HTH
DB
Thank you -- makes perfect sense and I agree with the cheap insurance sentiment. Time to start looking at possible dates for the build school! Does FF still give a rebate if you attend the school and then buy a kit? I thought that was pretty cool, especially since FF doesn't operate the school.
Separate reservoirs are safer because if one half of the brakes< front for instance, develops a leak you only lose fluid from that system/front reservoir. You will still have
fluid in the back brakes because they will have their own reservoir. That should be enough to get you stopped and still be in one piece to start looking for the failure.
Pretty cheap insurance IMO
I did the build school and it was worth every penny and every minute I invested in it.
HTH
DB
BEAR-AvHistory
12-18-2016, 09:51 PM
Thanks for the response. The radiator intake shroud looks pretty clean, but it looks like the source you referenced isn't available any longer, or the website is down. I like the idea of these types of upgrades, and I've looked at wheel well liners as an example. The tips that I come across like the trunk panels are why I signed up on this forum. I've been creating a file of tips from the build threads I've been reading and will definitely be researching each step of the build before diving in.
Think Mike is on vacation, I talked with him the week before last on something else. I added the wheel well liners after the car was on the road when I was hearing the pitter patter of little stones my 100 treadwear gumballs were picking up & releasing in the wheel wells. Got worried about a good sized stone staring the paint from the underside.
For whatever reason despite generally excellent road surfaces here I have seen more windshield dings in NC then I ever did back in Jersey.
As for the car once its on the road things will occur to you that fits your circumstances like the ww liners did to me. People here on the interstate generally run pretty fast & driving a ticket magnet like a red COBRA with a 1965 custom COYOTE plate & somewhat loud exhausts needs no more attention drawn to it.
Added a different radio to the console so I could get the Smokey & Local Traffic warning on WAZE. Adding stuff does not tend to ever end despite any good intentions to freeze the design.
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=13899&pictureid=55425
Just a few hours work. A car you build yourself & allow for future enhancements is a great money pit.
Main thing is regardless of prior experience if something in the build instructions looks dumb to you there is a 99% chance that it is.
I know all about the "Money Pit" aspect of hobby cars. I have a 1970 El Camino that I've spent a ton of time and money on. Imagine the cockpit area of a Cobra, but enclosed. Now add a 420 watt amp, two 10" subs, 2 6" door speakers, and two 3" dash speakers.
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k99/dcabral99/El%20Camino/DSCF0660_zps3epyvoxj.jpg (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/dcabral99/media/El%20Camino/DSCF0660_zps3epyvoxj.jpg.html)
Think Mike is on vacation, I talked with him the week before last on something else. I added the wheel well liners after the car was on the road when I was hearing the pitter patter of little stones my 100 treadwear gumballs were picking up & releasing in the wheel wells. Got worried about a good sized stone staring the paint from the underside.
For whatever reason despite generally excellent road surfaces here I have seen more windshield dings in NC then I ever did back in Jersey.
As for the car once its on the road things will occur to you that fits your circumstances like the ww liners did to me. People here on the interstate generally run pretty fast & driving a ticket magnet like a red COBRA with a 1965 custom COYOTE plate & somewhat loud exhausts needs no more attention drawn to it.
Added a different radio to the console so I could get the Smokey & Local Traffic warning on WAZE. Adding stuff does not tend to ever end despite any good intentions to freeze the design.
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=13899&pictureid=55425
Just a few hours work. A car you build yourself & allow for future enhancements is a great money pit.
Main thing is regardless of prior experience if something in the build instructions looks dumb to you there is a 99% chance that it is.
2FAST4U
12-18-2016, 11:03 PM
I've seen builds done by the book that are ho hum, while others that are over the top beautiful with enormous attention to detail. Take your time and focus on the details. It will be a show stopper.
Bill D
Great advice! I'm definitely one that will redo something until I'm happy with the result and I definitely intend to take my time with this build.
I've seen builds done by the book that are ho hum, while others that are over the top beautiful with enormous attention to detail. Take your time and focus on the details. It will be a show stopper.
Bill D
Jazzman
12-19-2016, 02:19 AM
I guess I am a perfect example of "project creep". I started out with a vision, pared it back because of my own lack of confidence, background, and skills, then allowed the project to grow as my confidence increased. The more I tried, the more I wanted to try. I have learned so much. The project has been an absolute joy! The one down side is that this project creep does hit you squarely in the wallet!
I concur with all the others: you can go by the book and get a good car. However, I would not have wanted to miss all the learning, all the joy, and even the frustration of trying modifications. Don't sell yourself short. You might not have the skills or the background now, but this does not mean you can't learn them. There are very helpful people on these forums, and you can find instructions to do almost anything somewhere on the internet.
Bottom line: Build to your own vision and to no other. Only in this way will you be completely pleased with your end result. Best of luck in your preparations and personal evaluation. This, too is a fun part of the build!
carlewms
12-19-2016, 05:26 AM
I, like Jazzman, have seen a lot of project creep but not to the extent he did with the flip top. As you can see from the responses there is clearly more than one "right" answer. Each modification has an impact on budget, schedule and sometimes quality (if not executed properly).
Here are some that are worthy of your consideration ... that were essential to me at least:
1. Modifying the PS foot box to get more room .. i have been a passenger in a car with the standard foot box and it is painful;
2. Power Steering ... I initially wanted to go old school with everything "manual"; after changing to power steering and go karting this has become an essential modification;
3. Engine Selection ... When doing my research I quickly came to the conclusion that I wanted to stay in the small block ford because it provided more room, the weight distribution was better and it was less complicated an option than say a Coyote;
4. Modifications required to get through state inspections ... depending on your state's regulations there may be some modifications you have to make or items you cannot delete ... windshield wipers is an example; and,
5. Are you installing a top of some sort? it could drive some mods and is one that doesn't come with either the basic or complete kit.
Do not shy away from a mod just because your worried you may not have the skills needed to execute it. The nice thing about the FFR roadster is that it has been around a long time; there is a lot of online expertise and folks willing to help.
Last but not least meet with locals which have built their cars ... sit in their cars, study their mods or lack of mods to see what can be done.
Sincerely,
Carl
Dave Howard
12-19-2016, 07:05 AM
Hi Dave,
In response to your original question....a by the book build will yield a nice street cruiser. There are some elaborate build threads out there that follow the book for the most part. You shouldn't be afraid of a few deviations from "the book". Most mods documented are kits or parts from venders that are designed to work with the FFR parts. They come with well documented instructions that take all the guess work out of installation. I mentioned to Dave Smith last summer in London that when I'm asked at car shows if I built the car myself' my response is "Dave Smith and the talented guys at FFR engineered and built the parts. I just put them together". Some great mods have been discussed already. The under trunk battery, the fan shroud, drivers footbox are all kits with great install instructions. Using all new parts makes the process that much easier. Installing a Coyote is a breeze if you follow the instructions from FFR. For my next build, I will not install a stereo. You just can't hear it...period. I will powder coat the exposed aluminum panels. I will install another Coyote, but it will have a supercharger because there's getting to be numerous Coyotes out there that all look and basically perform the same. Power stealing is a personal choice. Not my choice, and no power brakes. Kept the engine bay clutter free. Hid wiring and did alway with unnecessary components.
The instructors at the build school discuss some of the most popular and practical mods. Build school lets you realize how easy it is to built your own dream car. Thanks Dave Smith!!!
Jeff Kleiner
12-19-2016, 07:08 AM
Nothing at all wrong with a mostly by the book complete kit---I've done 'em. That said I'll second insulation which almost goes without saying (I use inexpensive Reflectix) and am one of the most vocal power steering advocates you will find here (I'll teach you how to do it for a couple hundred bucks rather than 1,000+). Beyond that you can build a solid reliable and fun car by following the recipe!
Good luck!
Jeff
CraigS
12-19-2016, 07:57 AM
By the book will yield you a nice car. But it can be even nicer w/ a few upgrades. Not so much nicer as in things people will see but more as in nicer for you to drive. The FFR front spindles are a huge advantage. The 2015 IRS is another huge advantage and the nice things is that it is both the good ride AND great cornering option. I agree w/ Jeff that PS is almost mandatory. My first FFR had the de-powered donor rack which was so terrible that it got power in the first 6 weeks I owned the car. My second had the FFR manual rack so I thought I would see how it was. It was a bit better but was replaced in the first month. One thing I would spend a lot of time on (and not much money) would be water proofing. You can drive in a light rain w/ surprisingly little of the rain coming in up top, but the spray from the tires will fill up the foot boxes in 5 minutes if they aren't sealed. that is a real pain. One other thought for you-there is nothing that you can not do, just a few things where you will learn new stuff to accomplish. As you have probably noticed, there is a wealth of knowledge here and on the other forum, and it is available for the asking.
Misterfubar
12-19-2016, 08:26 AM
It's great reading through this thread and hearing everyone's thoughts on necessary mods. I haven't even got my complete kit(mail off the check this week) and I already have a shelf full of Breeze, Summit and ********** parts.
Railroad
12-19-2016, 09:04 AM
I would definitely look into the electric power steering. No pump, no hyd lines, no cooler. It does have an additional box, but looks to be a great option.
CDXXVII
12-19-2016, 09:43 AM
Power Steering
There are only two instances that you may find power steering to be a must.
If you intend to do a bunch of auto crossing
If you want to steer while sitting still
In my opinion these cars steer just fine without power steering. If the car is in motion the steering gets easier. If you are driving at cruising speed it becomes pleasant. It's a personal choice but to me these cars were meant to feel raw. You can always change it later on but I love it without.
GoDadGo
12-19-2016, 10:24 AM
I'm doing a basic complete kit build except for some creature comfort options. (Radio / Heater / Foot Box Ventilation / Etc.)
My current daily driver has power steering (1995 C-4 Corvette) and I don't care for it at speeds above 70 MPH so you get the picture.
I may opt for power steering down the road, possibly electric, if I don't care for the manual rack at highway speeds.
Also, I can see if you are playing on the Auto-Cross pad why you'd really want and/or need it.
Good Luck & Have A Great Build!
phileas_fogg
12-19-2016, 10:30 AM
There are three safety items that must be addressed with the kit: Like Jeff Miller said, you absolutely need independent reservoirs for the front and rear brakes. At build school, they pointed out that US manufacturers adopted independent reservoirs before they adopted seat belts. That should tell you something. Second, you need to address in some way the potential for the accelerator to get stuck behind its mounting bracket. Build school will show you how to modify the stock pedal, or you can spend $90 and get the super-sweet Russ Thompson pedal. Finally, you've already talked about disc brakes front and back.
After addressing those safety items, it all comes down to what you feel like tackling. I had zero experience working on cars before jumping into the deep end, and so far, my reach has not exceeded my grasp.
John
Oh yeah, if you're going to do a driving school or track day with a passenger, you will almost certainly be required to have a roll bar for the passenger. For me, this is in the mandatory safety category as well.
GoDadGo
12-19-2016, 10:39 AM
Oh yeah, if you're going to do a driving school or track day with a passenger, you will almost certainly be required to have a roll bar for the passenger. For me, this is in the mandatory safety category as well.
Great Points Regarding Safety!
I didn't want to even have a roll bar until I road in and drove two Factory Five Roadsters before ordering my kit.
I also have a separate reservoir for each master cylinder and the car now has a drivers and passenger roll bar.
https://youtu.be/UJwM5godh88
Jazzman -- Your build goes way beyond "project creep" or "scope creep" in my line of work. I love the concept and can't wait to see your finished product.
I guess I am a perfect example of "project creep". I started out with a vision, pared it back because of my own lack of confidence, background, and skills, then allowed the project to grow as my confidence increased. The more I tried, the more I wanted to try. I have learned so much. The project has been an absolute joy! The one down side is that this project creep does hit you squarely in the wallet!
I concur with all the others: you can go by the book and get a good car. However, I would not have wanted to miss all the learning, all the joy, and even the frustration of trying modifications. Don't sell yourself short. You might not have the skills or the background now, but this does not mean you can't learn them. There are very helpful people on these forums, and you can find instructions to do almost anything somewhere on the internet.
Bottom line: Build to your own vision and to no other. Only in this way will you be completely pleased with your end result. Best of luck in your preparations and personal evaluation. This, too is a fun part of the build!
Thanks for the comments. I'm only 5'9" tall and average build. My wife (primary passenger) is only 5'2", so I was hoping the standard foot box area would be adequate for a Sunday cruise up to Breckenridge or Estes park (beautiful mountain destinations here in Colorado). I am also set on a small block, and want to do a 347 fuel injected (looking at BluePrint) with the typical Tremec five-speed setup. I like the idea of a simple, uncluttered engine bay with minimal electronics. I'm reaching out to the local Denver Cobra Club for advice on Colorado-specific inspection requirements (wipers are a question). I won't be installing a top of any kind, but plan to buy a weather-resistant cover to throw on if the weather turns while trapped at a car show. I figure I can keep 99% of the rain out of the car with a good cover.
I, like Jazzman, have seen a lot of project creep but not to the extent he did with the flip top. As you can see from the responses there is clearly more than one "right" answer. Each modification has an impact on budget, schedule and sometimes quality (if not executed properly).
Here are some that are worthy of your consideration ... that were essential to me at least:
1. Modifying the PS foot box to get more room .. i have been a passenger in a car with the standard foot box and it is painful;
2. Power Steering ... I initially wanted to go old school with everything "manual"; after changing to power steering and go karting this has become an essential modification;
3. Engine Selection ... When doing my research I quickly came to the conclusion that I wanted to stay in the small block ford because it provided more room, the weight distribution was better and it was less complicated an option than say a Coyote;
4. Modifications required to get through state inspections ... depending on your state's regulations there may be some modifications you have to make or items you cannot delete ... windshield wipers is an example; and,
5. Are you installing a top of some sort? it could drive some mods and is one that doesn't come with either the basic or complete kit.
Do not shy away from a mod just because your worried you may not have the skills needed to execute it. The nice thing about the FFR roadster is that it has been around a long time; there is a lot of online expertise and folks willing to help.
Last but not least meet with locals which have built their cars ... sit in their cars, study their mods or lack of mods to see what can be done.
Sincerely,
Carl
I was already looking at moving the battery, but hadn't seen the under the trunk kit. I looked at the relocation to the front kits, but think I like the rear setup better. These types of mods don't scare me at all as there is typically no custom fabrication involved -- just some added cost. I have a budget in mind, but don't mind going over when it makes sense. I've already assumed a 10% margin as acceptable.
Hi Dave,
In response to your original question....a by the book build will yield a nice street cruiser. There are some elaborate build threads out there that follow the book for the most part. You shouldn't be afraid of a few deviations from "the book". Most mods documented are kits or parts from venders that are designed to work with the FFR parts. They come with well documented instructions that take all the guess work out of installation. I mentioned to Dave Smith last summer in London that when I'm asked at car shows if I built the car myself' my response is "Dave Smith and the talented guys at FFR engineered and built the parts. I just put them together". Some great mods have been discussed already. The under trunk battery, the fan shroud, drivers footbox are all kits with great install instructions. Using all new parts makes the process that much easier. Installing a Coyote is a breeze if you follow the instructions from FFR. For my next build, I will not install a stereo. You just can't hear it...period. I will powder coat the exposed aluminum panels. I will install another Coyote, but it will have a supercharger because there's getting to be numerous Coyotes out there that all look and basically perform the same. Power stealing is a personal choice. Not my choice, and no power brakes. Kept the engine bay clutter free. Hid wiring and did alway with unnecessary components.
The instructors at the build school discuss some of the most popular and practical mods. Build school lets you realize how easy it is to built your own dream car. Thanks Dave Smith!!!
I've pretty much decided PS is going to be part of my build. I had a Jeep that I did a 2-1/2" lift on that changed the stock caster geometry enough to introduce "death wobble". I never want to experience that again! I was able to correct it in the Jeep by adding some adjustable lower control arms to get the caster angles up. I'll search for your threads in the PS how-to.
Nothing at all wrong with a mostly by the book complete kit---I've done 'em. That said I'll second insulation which almost goes without saying (I use inexpensive Reflectix) and am one of the most vocal power steering advocates you will find here (I'll teach you how to do it for a couple hundred bucks rather than 1,000+). Beyond that you can build a solid reliable and fun car by following the recipe!
Good luck!
Jeff
I've already decided on wheel well liners, any other water-proofing advice I should be looking into would be very helpful. I don't plan to ever drive in the rain, but stuff happens and Colorado weather is crazy! Storms have a way of popping up in minutes and there isn't much in the way of cover out here.
By the book will yield you a nice car. But it can be even nicer w/ a few upgrades. Not so much nicer as in things people will see but more as in nicer for you to drive. The FFR front spindles are a huge advantage. The 2015 IRS is another huge advantage and the nice things is that it is both the good ride AND great cornering option. I agree w/ Jeff that PS is almost mandatory. My first FFR had the de-powered donor rack which was so terrible that it got power in the first 6 weeks I owned the car. My second had the FFR manual rack so I thought I would see how it was. It was a bit better but was replaced in the first month. One thing I would spend a lot of time on (and not much money) would be water proofing. You can drive in a light rain w/ surprisingly little of the rain coming in up top, but the spray from the tires will fill up the foot boxes in 5 minutes if they aren't sealed. that is a real pain. One other thought for you-there is nothing that you can not do, just a few things where you will learn new stuff to accomplish. As you have probably noticed, there is a wealth of knowledge here and on the other forum, and it is available for the asking.
I haven't started buying parts yet, but have several bookmarked sites and threads as well as a running set of gotcha's captured in notes I've been capturing.
It's great reading through this thread and hearing everyone's thoughts on necessary mods. I haven't even got my complete kit(mail off the check this week) and I already have a shelf full of Breeze, Summit and ********** parts.
I've picked up on the PS debate and appreciate all the comments. Based on my needs, I'll be going with PS more for the overall control/stability aspect than the effort aspect.
I would definitely look into the electric power steering. No pump, no hyd lines, no cooler. It does have an additional box, but looks to be a great option.
Power Steering
There are only two instances that you may find power steering to be a must.
If you intend to do a bunch of auto crossing
If you want to steer while sitting still
In my opinion these cars steer just fine without power steering. If the car is in motion the steering gets easier. If you are driving at cruising speed it becomes pleasant. It's a personal choice but to me these cars were meant to feel raw. You can always change it later on but I love it without.
I'm doing a basic complete kit build except for some creature comfort options. (Radio / Heater / Foot Box Ventilation / Etc.)
My current daily driver has power steering (1995 C-4 Corvette) and I don't care for it at speeds above 70 MPH so you get the picture.
I may opt for power steering down the road, possibly electric, if I don't care for the manual rack at highway speeds.
Also, I can see if you are playing on the Auto-Cross pad why you'd really want and/or need it.
Good Luck & Have A Great Build!
Bookmarked the Russ Thompson pedal and the separate reservoir parts. I absolutely agree that safety is my number one concern, as it should be. My wife actually commented on the single roll bar in the kit. I told her I addressed that with a new life insurance policy -- not a wise decision when I haven't actually purchased the kit yet! Needless to say, my car will have a passenger roll bar.
There are three safety items that must be addressed with the kit: Like Jeff Miller said, you absolutely need independent reservoirs for the front and rear brakes. At build school, they pointed out that US manufacturers adopted independent reservoirs before they adopted seat belts. That should tell you something. Second, you need to address in some way the potential for the accelerator to get stuck behind its mounting bracket. Build school will show you how to modify the stock pedal, or you can spend $90 and get the super-sweet Russ Thompson pedal. Finally, you've already talked about disc brakes front and back.
After addressing those safety items, it all comes down to what you feel like tackling. I had zero experience working on cars before jumping into the deep end, and so far, my reach has not exceeded my grasp.
John
Oh yeah, if you're going to do a driving school or track day with a passenger, you will almost certainly be required to have a roll bar for the passenger. For me, this is in the mandatory safety category as well.
edwardb
12-19-2016, 04:40 PM
I've already decided on wheel well liners, any other water-proofing advice I should be looking into would be very helpful. I don't plan to ever drive in the rain, but stuff happens and Colorado weather is crazy! Storms have a way of popping up in minutes and there isn't much in the way of cover out here.
Personally, I would put the wheel well liners more into the appearance category than water-proofing anything. Popular ones are these from Alex: http://acroadsterinteriors.com/Fenderliners.html. I've seen them installed and they look very nice. But frankly I think they're pretty expensive for what they are. Especially for a budget build. (Just my opinion. No flames please.) You can protect the body from rocks and such with truck bedliner, which I would recommend regardless. A couple coats on the entire underside plus a couple more in the wheel wells gives protection and "blacks out" the wheels wells quite nicely. I also put the same material on the wheel side of the splash guards.
There is definitely an issue with the front area of the rear wheel wells. There is a 3/4-inch or so crescent shaped gap between the body and the chassis in that area. It's an easy fix with some aluminum and bulb seal. Wheel well liners would keep water and such from directly splashing into this area. But wouldn't seal it necessarily.
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Update%2011282016/th_IMG_4410_zpshhp1ycmz.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/edwardb123/media/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Update%2011282016/IMG_4410_zpshhp1ycmz.jpg.html)
RobReam
12-19-2016, 04:43 PM
You can ask “other people” what you want but, what do you want of the car? I went by the book as I wanted to keep it simple (it’s not my daily driver). I love the car (“because it is simple”) and I drive it anywhere,and I don’t have to worry about all of the complicated things I did to the car.
I build mine in a total of 16 weeks (yes with paint) and I only worked nights and weekends on it and I work 10 or 11 hours a day at work.
So, how much money do you have?? How much time do you have?? When do you want to drive this car?? There are some people that it takes YEARS to complete, and if that’s what they want then that is fine but, I WANT TO HAVE FUN now and not later.
Hey, it’s just my 2 cents. But KISS ( Keep It Simple Stupid) has always worked for me.
Another tip added to my growing list. I'm considering the liners because of all the rocks we have on the roads in Colorado from the snow season. I may still use the bed liner as well -- just added protection.
Personally, I would put the wheel well liners more into the appearance category than water-proofing anything. Popular ones are these from Alex: http://acroadsterinteriors.com/Fenderliners.html. I've seen them installed and they look very nice. But frankly I think they're pretty expensive for what they are. Especially for a budget build. (Just my opinion. No flames please.) You can protect the body from rocks and such with truck bedliner, which I would recommend regardless. A couple coats on the entire underside plus a couple more in the wheel wells gives protection and "blacks out" the wheels wells quite nicely. I also put the same material on the wheel side of the splash guards.
There is definitely an issue with the front area of the rear wheel wells. There is a 3/4-inch or so crescent shaped gap between the body and the chassis in that area. It's an easy fix with some aluminum and bulb seal. Wheel well liners would keep water and such from directly splashing into this area. But wouldn't seal it necessarily.
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Update%2011282016/th_IMG_4410_zpshhp1ycmz.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/edwardb123/media/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Update%2011282016/IMG_4410_zpshhp1ycmz.jpg.html)
I definitely want to keep it simple, but also don't want to overlook something basic that I can do to enhance the end product. I know I'll be powder coating all the aluminum panels that are visible, for example. My build will take some time for two reasons. 1. I want to spread out the cost over a year or more. 2. I want to give my young grandsons a chance to be part of the build, although I doubt they will be old enough to really remember anything but the finished car. I actually considered buying a finished car, but found myself feeling like I would regret not building it myself.
You can ask “other people” what you want but, what do you want of the car? I went by the book as I wanted to keep it simple (it’s not my daily driver). I love the car (“because it is simple”) and I drive it anywhere,and I don’t have to worry about all of the complicated things I did to the car.
I build mine in a total of 16 weeks (yes with paint) and I only worked nights and weekends on it and I work 10 or 11 hours a day at work.
So, how much money do you have?? How much time do you have?? When do you want to drive this car?? There are some people that it takes YEARS to complete, and if that’s what they want then that is fine but, I WANT TO HAVE FUN now and not later.
Hey, it’s just my 2 cents. But KISS ( Keep It Simple Stupid) has always worked for me.
Jeff Kleiner
12-20-2016, 05:51 AM
...I want to give my young grandsons a chance to be part of the build, although I doubt they will be old enough to really remember anything but the finished car...
Good on ya'! My Grandson is as car crazy as any of us here. Below is a photo from last year when he was not quite 4 "helping PawPaw work on the racing cars" :)
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=62051&d=1482230716
Jeff
mikeinatlanta
12-20-2016, 07:20 AM
My take.
Order the dual roll bars regardless of whether you intend to use both. This allows options later down the road. Plugging the holes in the body is easy, adding a roll bar mount after the fact is a bunch of work.
Dual reservoirs
Run in gelcoat for a while. It's easy to remove the body and make changes after you get on the road.
IMO: Too wide a tire choice is the single decision that sends guys heading down the slippery slope (to include the need for power steering). Supporting too much motor would be the next.
Vette1972
12-20-2016, 09:27 AM
Good on ya'! My Grandson is as car crazy as any of us here. Below is a photo from last year when he was not quite 4 "helping PawPaw work on the racing cars" :)
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=62051&d=1482230716
Jeff
Picture is worth millions! Just fantastic.
Vette1972
12-20-2016, 09:31 AM
If you do a by the book build with a donor Mustang 4 link rear, can the upgrade to 3 link or IRS be added later without being a huge project? That seems to be a significant upgrade to the handling from reading the posts here.
edwardb
12-20-2016, 09:58 AM
If you do a by the book build with a donor Mustang 4 link rear, can the upgrade to 3 link or IRS be added later without being a huge project? That seems to be a significant upgrade to the handling from reading the posts here.
Yes to 3 link. For a solid axle setup, the Mk4 chassis comes with connections for either 3 link or 4 link. No to IRS. Not factory supported anyway. A chassis is either solid axle or IRS.
BTW, upgrading the donor Mustang 4 link to coilovers is a pretty major improvement. But still 4 link.
Vette1972
12-20-2016, 10:11 AM
Yes to 3 link. For a solid axle setup, the Mk4 chassis comes with connections for either 3 link or 4 link. No to IRS. Not factory supported anyway. A chassis is either solid axle or IRS.
BTW, upgrading the donor Mustang 4 link to coilovers is a pretty major improvement. But still 4 link.
Thanks edwardb, I thought there was a significant difference but wanted to be sure. Trying to look at various options as how to configure a plan. Your build threads are awesome, read them more than once. Thanks again.
scottiec
12-20-2016, 10:14 AM
I am doing my build by the book, for the most part at least. I would suggest to take everything with a grain of salt, since it is easy to fall into the rabbit hole. Just keep in mind the reason you are building the car and what you want the car to be. I want mine to be like an original. Loud, minimalist, a little bit unruly and hairy. I decided to go with the 94/95 sn95 spindles, because I can not even begin to understand how FF sells their spindles for $700. I will see how much caster I can get, but I am not too worries about it even though I have manual steering.
Remember, the car will still drive no matter how you build it. Most modifications done are based on opinion and style, not right and wrong.
Thanks for that, Jeff. I was raised around cars as a child. My dad was always driving a cool car and usually had one in the garage at all times as well. My daughter and son-in-law think of cars as nothing more than appliances to get from A to B. When my first grandson was born, I started him down the car crazy road early. He loves anything with wheels and really likes driving Papa's tractor.
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k99/dcabral99/John%20Deere/DanPar%20and%20GrandPa%20on%20the%20tractor_zpse8m l0izo.jpg (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/dcabral99/media/John%20Deere/DanPar%20and%20GrandPa%20on%20the%20tractor_zpse8m l0izo.jpg.html)
Good on ya'! My Grandson is as car crazy as any of us here. Below is a photo from last year when he was not quite 4 "helping PawPaw work on the racing cars" :)
Jeff
Yama-Bro
12-20-2016, 12:26 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't all of the MK4 frames come with the mounts for the passenger roll bar already welded in place?
Order the dual roll bars regardless of whether you intend to use both. This allows options later down the road. Plugging the holes in the body is easy, adding a roll bar mount after the fact is a bunch of work.
.
edwardb
12-20-2016, 01:08 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't all of the MK4 frames come with the mounts for the passenger roll bar already welded in place?
Yes. There used to be an added bracket required for the PS. But that was quite a while ago. Mk4's come standard with all three mounts on both sides.
BEAR-AvHistory
12-20-2016, 01:14 PM
Another tip added to my growing list. I'm considering the liners because of all the rocks we have on the roads in Colorado from the snow season. I may still use the bed liner as well -- just added protection.
FWIW 100% of the panels exposed to "weather" have been covered with truck bead liner. As an unplanned, nice to have happened, any place where it gets dings or marred a quick spray from a rattle can seals it back up. Part of my annual maintenance sequence.
edwardb
12-20-2016, 01:36 PM
I am doing my build by the book, for the most part at least. I would suggest to take everything with a grain of salt, since it is easy to fall into the rabbit hole. Just keep in mind the reason you are building the car and what you want the car to be. I want mine to be like an original. Loud, minimalist, a little bit unruly and hairy. I decided to go with the 94/95 sn95 spindles, because I can not even begin to understand how FF sells their spindles for $700. I will see how much caster I can get, but I am not too worries about it even though I have manual steering.
Remember, the car will still drive no matter how you build it. Most modifications done are based on opinion and style, not right and wrong.
Not to be argumentative, but since the OP is a new member and gathering information, couple of comments. I've done a build with donor spindles (SN95, the "good" ones) and another with the FF 2-piece spindles. I'm not going to defend FF's pricing. But the difference driving is quite significant. Not opinion, it's real. Especially noticeable is the complete lack of bump steer. There are bump steer and SAI mods available for the donor spindles, and by all accounts those work very well. For many years that was the only option for improvement. But these mods are built into the 2-piece spindles, and the cost and labor to add them should be considered to really compare the two.
I agree whether a particular mod is required or not is often a matter of opinion. But my recommendations were made having specific experience with several builds. Several who have responded here have way more experience than me. I wouldn't dismiss these suggestions as opinion only. Probably some substance there.
I also don't see mods as rabbit holes. But that's me. I actually find customizing to be a really rewarding aspect of these builds. For some the build is all about getting through it so the driving can begin. I understand that. For others, including me, the build is also a big part of the attraction. Everyone is different.
GoDadGo
12-20-2016, 01:58 PM
Not to be argumentative, but since the OP is a new member and gathering information, couple of comments. I've done a build with donor spindles (SN95, the "good" ones) and another with the FF 2-piece spindles. I'm not going to defend FF's pricing. But the difference driving is quite significant. Not opinion, it's real. Especially noticeable is the complete lack of bump steer. There are bump steer and SAI mods available for the donor spindles, and by all accounts those work very well. For many years that was the only option for improvement. But these mods are built into the 2-piece spindles, and the cost and labor to add them should be considered to really compare the two.
I agree whether a particular mod is required or not is often a matter of opinion. But my recommendations were made having specific experience with several builds. Several who have responded here have way more experience than me. I wouldn't dismiss these suggestions as opinion only. Probably some substance there.
I also don't see mods as rabbit holes. But that's me. I actually find customizing to be a really rewarding aspect of these builds. For some the build is all about getting through it so the driving can begin. I understand that. For others, including me, the build is also a big part of the attraction. Everyone is different.
Bravo Sir EdwardB,
Adding a few things here and a few mods there really makes these cars your own.
As for me I'm a big fan of the complete kit, but am so glad I've taken a tad different path on the execution of the project.
Building your dream car starts with a dream, then some money, followed by some busted knuckles and a few *&#(!!#&!$*&!$ just for fun.
Steve
scottiec
12-20-2016, 02:05 PM
Not to be argumentative, but since the OP is a new member and gathering information, couple of comments. I've done a build with donor spindles (SN95, the "good" ones) and another with the FF 2-piece spindles. I'm not going to defend FF's pricing. But the difference driving is quite significant. Not opinion, it's real. Especially noticeable is the complete lack of bump steer. There are bump steer and SAI mods available for the donor spindles, and by all accounts those work very well. For many years that was the only option for improvement. But these mods are built into the 2-piece spindles, and the cost and labor to add them should be considered to really compare the two.
I agree whether a particular mod is required or not is often a matter of opinion. But my recommendations were made having specific experience with several builds. Several who have responded here have way more experience than me. I wouldn't dismiss these suggestions as opinion only. Probably some substance there.
I also don't see mods as rabbit holes. But that's me. I actually find customizing to be a really rewarding aspect of these builds. For some the build is all about getting through it so the driving can begin. I understand that. For others, including me, the build is also a big part of the attraction. Everyone is different.
Not argumentative at all! This is one of the great reasons why we have the forum. I understand that the difference in the two spindles is a fact, which is why I said "most modifications are based on opinion". After talking to Dan at FF, he said it took seconds off lap times. That is huge! I am interested to see if I notice the bump steer on the street (or see what my tolerance is for it! lol)
And when I said rabbit holes, what I mean is that it is easy to start to think you need something or that not having it will mean your car won't be as "good" so to speak. I think it is great that everyone's car is different.
I hope it didn't seem like I was bashing your suggestions! By no means was that intended.
I will say, coming from racing spec miata, I was very grassroots and budget racer so to speak. Trying to lose some of that mindset since I don't need to rush the build. No need to "get the car ready for this weekend" and "fix this or that".
scottiec
12-20-2016, 02:08 PM
Bravo Sir EdwardB,
Adding a few things here and a few mods there really makes these cars your own.
As for me I'm a big fan of the complete kit, but am so glad I've taken a tad different path on the execution of the project.
Building your dream car starts with a dream, then some money, followed by some busted knuckles and a few *&#(!!#&!$*&!$ just for fun.
Steve
Steve, you forget to add "more money" after the busted knuckles part!
Jeff Kleiner
12-20-2016, 02:52 PM
...After talking to Dan at FF, he said it took seconds off lap times...
If you want seconds off (with ANY spindles) you're gonna' have to use power steering. But what would I know about that? ;)
Jeff
scottiec
12-20-2016, 03:12 PM
If you want seconds off (with ANY spindles) you're gonna' have to use power steering. But what would I know about that? ;)
Jeff
Do the guys with challenge cars run power steering?
edwardb
12-20-2016, 03:18 PM
And when I said rabbit holes, what I mean is that it is easy to start to think you need something or that not having it will mean your car won't be as "good" so to speak. I think it is great that everyone's car is different.
I hope it didn't seem like I was bashing your suggestions! By no means was that intended.
That's similar to my lead off comment that with all the discussions about mods it's easy to think a stock build is somehow inferior. I never took any comments as bashing. Just wanted to stay balanced. Sounds like we're on the same page.
scottiec
12-20-2016, 03:25 PM
That's similar to my lead off comment that with all the discussions about mods it's easy to think a stock build is somehow inferior. I never took any comments as bashing. Just wanted to stay balanced. Sounds like we're on the same page.
Good deal! Agreed.
Thank you all for the great advice. This forum is everything I expected it to be and more, and I respect everyone's input. In the end, I'll build the car that meets my needs (and most of the wants). It's always good to get opposing opinions. It helps put all the information in perspective and provides what is needed to help people like me make an informed choice. Thanks again, and keep those comments coming!
Dave
GoDadGo
12-20-2016, 04:31 PM
If you decide to do a Dark Side Chevy Build, then please go to the website shown below:
www.gpsconnection.com
Randy's motor mount locations were spot on and were a great help to me.
WIS89
12-20-2016, 05:29 PM
Papa-
I think you have some great advice here in this thread, and some great ideas on how to start to formulate your build plan!
I like some mods, and have no use for some others. I am taking my time on my build by choice, and am enjoying every bit of it. I know I will love driving it, but will simultaneously miss the build process. There really is no right or wrong way to build these cars. I wish you much success as you get started!
I have been to Parker, CO, and it is beautiful; and there were some truly wonderful families there that I remember fondly!
Merry Christmas to you and your family!
Regards,
Steve
6t8dart
12-20-2016, 05:34 PM
I guess I'm not even sure what a "by the book" build is? How is that defined? Which book, complete kit, donor kit? I can only imagine that is kit built only with donor components from a stock, unmodified mustang. I actually have seen a few of these built a while back. As i have seen, those that did it enjoy their cars as much if not more than a customized build. i think those lower cost builds get driven more, especially in the rain. I really respect that.
I had planned a donor build that ended up being only a few items from the donor mustang. that has long since gone out the window.
Jeff Kleiner
12-20-2016, 06:11 PM
Do the guys with challenge cars run power steering?
Yes.
Jeff
I guess I'm not even sure what a "by the book" build is? How is that defined? Which book, complete kit, donor kit? I can only imagine that is kit built only with donor components from a stock, unmodified mustang. I actually have seen a few of these built a while back. As i have seen, those that did it enjoy their cars as much if not more than a customized build. i think those lower cost builds get driven more, especially in the rain. I really respect that.
I had planned a donor build that ended up being only a few items from the donor mustang. that has long since gone out the window.
By-the-book in my mind is to purchase a complete kit and build per the assembly manual using all or most of the kit parts.
Papa-
I think you have some great advice here in this thread, and some great ideas on how to start to formulate your build plan!
I like some mods, and have no use for some others. I am taking my time on my build by choice, and am enjoying every bit of it. I know I will love driving it, but will simultaneously miss the build process. There really is no right or wrong way to build these cars. I wish you much success as you get started!
I have been to Parker, CO, and it is beautiful; and there were some truly wonderful families there that I remember fondly!
Merry Christmas to you and your family!
Regards,
Steve
Thanks, Steve. I love Parker. I have five acres outside the city and who could resist a view like this (view from my deck):
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k99/dcabral99/Mountain%20Views/DSC00449_zps9mqkzxia.jpg (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/dcabral99/media/Mountain%20Views/DSC00449_zps9mqkzxia.jpg.html)
Dave
scottiec
12-20-2016, 07:44 PM
Yes.
Jeff
Interesting. Figured they would be manual steering.
BEAR-AvHistory
12-20-2016, 11:29 PM
Do the guys with challenge cars run power steering?
Agree with Jeff on lost time with manual steering. Got my feet wet in Auto-X this summer & there are places on the course you just know not having PS is killing your times. Have 255X17X40 with 300 treadware rubber on the front & they great fun on the street. Parking is just a matter of keeping the car in a little motion. Don't see any big need for PS there.
If I get serious about Auto-X next summer will check to see if the electric conversion will clear the COYOTE which does not leave much room in the engine compartment.
scottiec
12-21-2016, 10:40 AM
Agree with Jeff on lost time with manual steering. Got my feet wet in Auto-X this summer & there are places on the course you just know not having PS is killing your times. Have 255X17X40 with 300 treadware rubber on the front & they great fun on the street. Parking is just a matter of keeping the car in a little motion. Don't see any big need for PS there.
If I get serious about Auto-X next summer will check to see if the electric conversion will clear the COYOTE which does not leave much room in the engine compartment.
I can understand for autocross. But on a track, I can't see it making a huge difference since these are not very heavy cars.
6t8dart
12-21-2016, 10:45 AM
By-the-book in my mind is to purchase a complete kit and build per the assembly manual using all or most of the kit parts.
It just goes to show you that everyone has their own interpretation of what it is. I first started looking at the factory fives back in the late 90's, at that time I remember seeing a few base kit cars using I gen fox mustang parts, pretty much stock, even using the 15" mustang gt turbine wheels.
BEAR-AvHistory
12-21-2016, 10:54 AM
I can understand for autocross. But on a track, I can't see it making a huge difference since these are not very heavy cars.
Reducing overall driver workload would be my first thought. The cars are not heavy but can still be very tiring when driven at race speeds for any long period of time. Auto-X is over pretty quickly.
Jeff Kleiner
12-21-2016, 02:53 PM
I can understand for autocross. But on a track, I can't see it making a huge difference since these are not very heavy cars.
I will tell you from personal experience that even with power steering when at speed on a road course steering effort increases exponentially. IMO it would be difficult to "keep up" with the car effectively with a manual rack. A byproduct of the additional caster that PS allows is more camber gain when turning.
Jeff
GoDadGo
12-21-2016, 03:07 PM
I will tell you from personal experience that even with power steering when at speed on a road course steering effort increases exponentially. IMO it would be difficult to "keep up" with the car effectively with a manual rack. A byproduct of the additional caster that PS allows is more camber gain when turning.
Jeff
Jeff,
Any thoughts about the Electric Power Steering option?
If you decide to do a Dark Side Chevy Build, then please go to the website shown below:
www.gpsconnection.com
Randy's motor mount locations were spot on and were a great help to me.
I'll be keeping mine Ford, but I've seen some interesting LS Cobra videos on YouTube.
GoDadGo
12-21-2016, 04:30 PM
I'll be keeping mine Ford, but I've seen some interesting LS Cobra videos on YouTube.
Doing a FORD build is easier and just makes good sense since no fabrication is required plus you catch less flack!
The LS engine can be adapted to the stock mounts since the engine mounts sit further back (middle of block) and doesn't have a distibutor poking out the back of the block like the SBC & BBC power plants.
Pace Performance sells several LS engines and even one with a distributor in the front that really looks like it could be a Ford piece.
Good Luck & Have A Great Build!
Jeff Kleiner
12-21-2016, 07:00 PM
Jeff,
Any thoughts about the Electric Power Steering option?
I have not driven an electric over hydraulic roadster (i.e. Fast Freddie's system) but would think that it should act just like an engine driven pump. A friend built an FE powered Mk4 with electric assist and asked me to take it for a drive...I honestly didn't like it. It felt kind of spooky, almost as if the wheel wanted to take itself from my hands. He subsequently crashed the car twice (nearly killing himself the first time and totaling the car the second time). Coincidence???
Jeff
GoDadGo
12-21-2016, 08:02 PM
I have not driven an electric over hydraulic roadster (i.e. Fast Freddie's system) but would think that it should act just like an engine driven pump. A friend built an FE powered Mk4 with electric assist and asked me to take it for a drive...I honestly didn't like it. It felt kind of spooky, almost as if the wheel wanted to take itself from my hands. He subsequently crashed the car twice (nearly killing himself the first time and totaling the car the second time). Coincidence???
Jeff
If I add power steering down the road I'll just have to add a restrictor to the GM style pump so that it works well with the Ford Rack.
Power Steering Flow Control Valve: JEGS Performance Part Number: 555-60791
> Steering Flow Control Valve Fits most GM Saginaw-Style Power Steering Pumps Recommended for:
> GM Saginaw-Style Power Steering Pumps using Ford Mustang & T-Bird Style Rack & Pinion
> Use with:5/8"-18 Inverted Flare or -06 AN High Pressure Hoses
Thanks-O-Million!
Steve
juanfmc
12-24-2016, 03:04 PM
1. Modifying the PS foot box to get more room .. i have been a passenger in a car with the standard foot box and it is painful;
Carl, Is there a thread or reference that explains how to modify the PS foot box to get more room? This is a great point. I want people like wife and friends to want to ride with me and I don't want them to be uncomfortable.
Thanks.
Juan
St Louis, MO
juanfmc
12-24-2016, 03:10 PM
...One thing I would spend a lot of time on (and not much money) would be water proofing.
Craig, same question, is there a thread or reference that explains how to water proof/seal the foot boxes?
Thanks.
Juan
St Louis, MO
GoDadGo
12-24-2016, 03:12 PM
The MK-4 foot box is a lot bigger than the earlier models.
I'm 5'10" with a 32" inseam and I fit just fine.
If you wife is taller me, then you may want to modify it to increase the length.
edwardb
12-24-2016, 04:04 PM
Carl, Is there a thread or reference that explains how to modify the PS foot box to get more room? This is a great point. I want people like wife and friends to want to ride with me and I don't want them to be uncomfortable.
Thanks.
Juan
St Louis, MO
Each of the Mk's over the years has expanded both footboxes. I can personally vouch for the increased space between a Mk3 and Mk4. Especially on the passenger side. Huge difference between a Mk3 and Mk4 on that side. FF has made continuous improvements and the most recent Mk4 has even more space than early Mk4's and is pretty much maxed out on the driver's side for even the widest engines. There isn't much more that can be done there. For the passenger side, there might be a little space to be gained. But it's entirely dependent on the engine and header setup you install.
On my Mk4 #7750 with a SBF and BBK headers, I did a pretty well known PS footbox mod. It's a couple inches deeper and an inch or so wider. It's nice, but it's not a small amount of work to cut and fit several new aluminum panels. Plus the standard carpet pieces don't fit any more.
For my current build with a Coyote, I did look at the possibility to also expand the PS footbox. But the gains possible with the Coyote are pretty minimal, plus doesn't help with the already tight access to the headers. So I went with the stock setup. I don't consider the stock PS space "uncomfortable." Tight maybe, but it's not terrible. You won't need to apologize to your passengers. They'll be fine. These aren't typically long distance cross country cruisers. The best thing you could do is see one in person and decide for yourself.