View Full Version : Headers and header bolts and wrenches
boat737
12-13-2016, 04:53 PM
While trying to pre fit the headers, it seems as if there is even less room between the bolt heads and the header pipes than I realized. I thought I was pretty well equipped with tools, but so far end wrenches, sockets, flair-nut crows foot, torque extender/adapter all do not fit on most of the bolts. A couple I can get a wrench or socket on, but that's it. And this is supposedly the EASY side. (Haven't even looked at the DS header yet.)
My next idea is to grind down a wrench or torque adapter to try and get one to fit, but before I ruin a $40 or $50 tool (I use SnapOn), that may not work, I'm coming to the experts for advise. Is there a special socket or wrench that I'm not aware of that is made for this problem? For those with these interference problems, do you have any special bolts that work? I see that the Stage 8 bolts are 6 point, which would allow an end wrench or crows foot to maybe work. Any and all help appreciated. I was supposed to have first start last month, but this is the last issue before start and now holding that up.
Thanks all.
Railroad
12-13-2016, 05:34 PM
You might consider a socket head bolt. There are some allen wrenches that have a ball shape on the end of the wrench, this allows some angle plus the small tool to tighten the bolts.
https://www.google.com/search?q=socket+head+cap+screw&espv=2&biw=877&bih=420&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZ7LLCnfLQAhVE42MKHU8cDC8Q_AUIBigB
https://www.zoro.com/sk-professional-tools-socket-bit-38-in-dr-9mm-ball-hex-45969/i/G4427762/?gclid=Cj0KEQiA1b7CBRDjmIPL4u-Zy6gBEiQAsJhTMJc5lzTvltWvJAI0x67y839FX6jLKErANGrHL sun0aUaAmd_8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds
If you think you can get by with a wrench, I usually buy an economy brand and either heat or grind to work.
good luck,
Jeff Kleiner
12-13-2016, 06:32 PM
Stage 8s have an external hex to accept a socket or wrench as well as an internal so that you can use an allen wrench. I've used them before and run them in snug with the allen wrench then torque on them with a socket, 6 or 12 point wrench before installing the locks.
https://cfc7329ad537523a5de1-b21544d490ba797ec9de9d17e947de3d.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.c om/m9432a54_8769.jpg
That said I still prefer Percy's vibe locks which can be run with a small 12 point 1/4" drive socket:
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k161/mashane750hp/VIBE_zps356efbcf.jpg
Good luck,
Jeff
You're facing a common problem with headers that have tight bends at the ports. The Stage-8 have large heads so that't not an option unless you want to dimple the header pipes (not recommended). There are special header bolts for these applications that have a compact hex flange head, some as small as 5/16" hex. These are what you want as you can get them tight enough even with the smaller hex and they are small enough to clear the tight bends. I couldn't tell for sure in your photos if these are aluminum heads but if they are, don't forget to use never seize on the threads. If you're worried about them coming loose you can drill the bolt heads and safety wire them. If you don't use never seize (I prefer the graphite or nickel type for steel into aluminum) you stand a chance of damaging the aluminum threads trying to remove them after a couple years (or less) due to galvanic corrosion. Look at the Summit Racing online catalog. Gotta say, Jeff's suggestion of the Percy fasteners looks interesting.
boat737
12-13-2016, 08:53 PM
Stage 8s have an external hex to accept a socket or wrench as well as an internal so that you can use an allen wrench. I've used them before and run them in snug with the allen wrench then torque on them with a socket, 6 or 12 point wrench before installing the locks.
That said I still prefer Percy's vibe locks which can be run with a small 12 point 1/4" drive socket:
Good luck,
Jeff
You're facing a common problem with headers that have tight bends at the ports. The Stage-8 have large heads so that't not an option unless you want to dimple the header pipes (not recommended). There are special header bolts for these applications that have a compact hex flange head, some as small as 5/16" hex. These are what you want as you can get them tight enough even with the smaller hex and they are small enough to clear the tight bends. I couldn't tell for sure in your photos if these are aluminum heads but if they are, don't forget to use never seize on the threads. If you're worried about them coming loose you can drill the bolt heads and safety wire them. If you don't use never seize (I prefer the graphite or nickel type for steel into aluminum) you stand a chance of damaging the aluminum threads trying to remove them after a couple years (or less) due to galvanic corrosion. Look at the Summit Racing online catalog. Gotta say, Jeff's suggestion of the Percy fasteners looks interesting.
Thanks Railroad, Jeff K, and NAZ. The bolts I have right now are the (nearly) $100 Percy's SS 3/8-16 x 1" self locking. They have a 3/8" 12 pt head, and it's still too close on most of them. When I bought them, I thought sure they would work perfect. Guess not. I like the idea of a 5/16 head, but have never seen anything like that on a 3/8-16 bolt. Any idea on availability or sourcing? Jeff, do you know the size of the head on those Stage 8's? I screwed in a socket-cap bolt, and even that is hitting the pipe. It may work if I grind down the diameter of the head maybe. It doesn't seem so much the bend in the pipe, but the diameter of the pipe. Pretty big, and it just bulges out from the header flange. I thought about hammering a dent/dimple next to the bolt, but they are ceramic coated, and I don't really want to ruin the finish, or for that matter, weaken the pipe.
They are aluminum heads, and I was already planning on the anti-seize, figuring the self locking Percy's would prevent the common loosening. And since I have mis-matched ports on the head (nearly square) and the header flange (more rectangle) I was going to ditch the header gasket and go the Ultra Copper RTV route. (my previous thread http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?22554-Header-gasket-vs-no-gasket , post 14 I think). I wanted to make sure I could get all the bolts in first, before I made a mess of everything with anti-seize and RTV.
Everything else is done and checked for the first start, but this is going to delay that. Looks like I'll be scratching my head for a few more days... or weeks.
Bad Moose
12-13-2016, 09:08 PM
I used Remflex gaskets, Mr Gasket locking bolts (mine did not have Loctite) and a combination of the hex, 4 way wrench, regular wrenches. Hi temp silicone on the threads of the header bolts.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/222329553816?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-2231g/overview/
Take a look at ARP #100-1108 (3/4" long) or 100-1110 (1" long). These are 3/8-16 with 5/16 hex.
NukeMMC
12-13-2016, 09:59 PM
I used the Percy Vibe Locks on my 351w. The ability to get a torque wrench on the driver side rear 2 bolts is NIL. I used a 12-point double box end 3/8" and "grunt" torque (tighten until I grunt). No gaskets, just hi-temp copper Permatex and no issues for almost 5000 miles now.
Bob Cowan
12-13-2016, 10:11 PM
As said above, it's a common problem. Don't be afraid to dimple the headers a little bit around the bolt head. You won't affect the performance any, and it will make your life much easier. Put the ball end of a ball peen hammer on the pipe next to the bolt hole, and whack it with another hammer. You only need a couple of mm's of extra space.
boat737
12-13-2016, 11:32 PM
As said above, it's a common problem. Don't be afraid to dimple the headers a little bit around the bolt head. You won't affect the performance any, and it will make your life much easier. Put the ball end of a ball peen hammer on the pipe next to the bolt hole, and whack it with another hammer. You only need a couple of mm's of extra space.
Hammer's and car's, just don't seem right. That said, Any idea on what will happen to the ceramic coating? and will that weaken the tube at all? Thanks Bob.
Sanford
12-14-2016, 05:38 AM
I used a small 1/4" drive socked and a large pair of channel locks to extend the dimple that were on mine.
CraigS
12-14-2016, 07:53 AM
I have a Craftsman 3/8 combination wrench which has had probably 1/2 the thickness of the box end ground off. I keep waiting for it to break but it's been 9 years now. It is the normal length which is pretty short in 3/8 size so i guess one really can't get a lot of torque on it. I have used a socket head bolt and a ball end allen and that works also but you need to figure an extender for the short end so you can get a little torque into it. I am a bit reluctant to use the socket head bolts as they are hard to find and so is the special allen if you ever needed them out on the road.
Railroad
12-14-2016, 08:49 AM
I will throw this out there, but you have probably already become aware of it. Some of the bolts and header tubes, will not line up with the header flange drawn down against the head. Leave the header flange as loose as possible with only a few threads holding on the first few bolts. Get all the bolts started and tighten them all a few turns at a time. Headers are fun.
Bob Cowan
12-14-2016, 09:32 AM
Hammer's and car's, just don't seem right. That said, Any idea on what will happen to the ceramic coating? and will that weaken the tube at all? Thanks Bob.
You're only dimpling the tube a couple of mm's. Not enough to damage the coating or weaken the metal. I did mine 5-6 years ago without any deleterious effects.
boat737
12-14-2016, 11:03 AM
I have a Craftsman 3/8 combination wrench which has had probably 1/2 the thickness of the box end ground off. I keep waiting for it to break but it's been 9 years now. It is the normal length which is pretty short in 3/8 size so i guess one really can't get a lot of torque on it. I have used a socket head bolt and a ball end allen and that works also but you need to figure an extender for the short end so you can get a little torque into it. I am a bit reluctant to use the socket head bolts as they are hard to find and so is the special allen if you ever needed them out on the road.
Tools I got. Love those Snap-On tools (wish I had stock...). I have just about every conceivable combination of 3/8" socket and wrenche there are, at least 10 of them, and none fit. I haven't started grinding on any yet, but that might be next (you'll know when I do because you'll hear me crying from across the country.)
The socket head thing is still a possibility bet even the head on those are too big. I will have to grind down the diameter. The Percy's are pretty small, and still too big. Socket head is even bigger. And I have a lot of tools for those as well.
6188661887
I will throw this out there, but you have probably already become aware of it. Some of the bolts and header tubes, will not line up with the header flange drawn down against the head. Leave the header flange as loose as possible with only a few threads holding on the first few bolts. Get all the bolts started and tighten them all a few turns at a time. Headers are fun.
On my other thread ( http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?22554-Header-gasket-vs-no-gasket&p=258023#post258023 ) someone cautioned about how to get all the bolts started and screwed in uniformly. He was absolutely right. I have to put two studs in to hold the flange in place, and then start the bolts in with only a couple of turns. Then replace the studs with the last two bolts. Then tighten each bolt two turns while holding the flange away from the head. If you go too far with one bolt, it causes the others to bind, so they all have to go in together, two turns at a time. I can get it together by doing that, but then 5 or 6 of the eight will not take a wrench, hence, the reason for this thread. It's going to be a real thrill, and mess I bet, when I install them for real with Copper RTV and anti-sieze all over the place.
I just ordered up some ARP SS bolts with a 5/16 12 pt head, so we'll see if they will work. (Also got on the Snap-On sight and ordered up many different combinations of 5/16 sockets and wrenches. Really wish I had stock...) I'm still planning on running the Percy's in as many holes as I can, but for now it looks like I'll be running 2 or 3 different style bolts, of which only a few will be the locking Percy's, which kinda sucks. And I haven't even tried the driver's side pipes yet. They look even tighter. This is a real head scratch-er for sure.
boat737
12-14-2016, 11:10 AM
You're only dimpling the tube a couple of mm's. Not enough to damage the coating or weaken the metal. I did mine 5-6 years ago without any deleterious effects.
I'm still a bit shy and hesitant about the dimpling thing. I've never done it before. I sure don't want to ruin a nice set of pipes. But as tight as a few of these holes are, I am guessing that it may be a requirement to do that. Anyone out there have a video of the dimpling process? or pictures at least?
'Nother question, once I get these headers on with the RTV (or if I ever do) how long should the RTV set up and cure before I actually start up the motor? A day? or two?
RR20AC
12-14-2016, 11:52 AM
I installed the stage 8's SS one inch in mine with percy's gaskets. on the drivers side I took 2 to 3 threads off the end of a couple that would not clear the bends of the pipe. The passenger side maybe one was shortened. I put the bolts in before mounting, the tight ones are that tight. I will re-torque after a few runs and put the locks on. The percy's look better but there is no way I could tighten them. I have a 427W dart also with GP headers. The headers are actually a bit larger than the ones that came from Factory Five.
boat737
12-14-2016, 01:14 PM
All good stuff. If you have pictures (clearances, tools, etc.), post them up too.
I may just order up the Stage 8's, just so I can say I have one set of every conceivable set of header bolts. I could use a different bolt on every hole.
What style of the Stage 8's is everyone using, the teardrop looking locker, or the half moon shaped one?
Bob Cowan
12-14-2016, 02:05 PM
'Nother question, once I get these headers on with the RTV (or if I ever do) how long should the RTV set up and cure before I actually start up the motor? A day? or two?
I usually let it sit overnight. I kind of plan the header install early on, so the goo can dry while I'm getting the other stuff done.
Bobby Doug
12-15-2016, 07:25 AM
All good stuff. If you have pictures (clearances, tools, etc.), post them up too.
I may just order up the Stage 8's, just so I can say I have one set of every conceivable set of header bolts. I could use a different bolt on every hole.
What style of the Stage 8's is everyone using, the teardrop looking locker, or the half moon shaped one?
I used the half moon type. I had to grind about 2/3s of the locks to get a tight fit. I just have to remember if I ever remove my headers to lay out the bolts and their locks to match their corresponding locations on the headers.
BTW, whose headers are you using? I had no problems tightening my header bolts.
Doug
mikeinatlanta
12-15-2016, 08:01 AM
Regarding galling, SS bolts are much more likely to gall that steel. I would avoid them unless you are really serious about having the shiny. If you do use them, don't go cheap on the anti seize.
rich grsc
12-15-2016, 09:03 AM
Got to laugh, you got a hundred dollars worth of Snap-On wrenches and none will work. The best set of header wrenches cost $5, you grind them, heat them, bend them, beat them till they fit. I would not put up with all the trouble you're having, I would've taken a hammer to the headers a long time ago. Beat them till they conform!
boat737
12-15-2016, 01:02 PM
Got to laugh, you got a hundred dollars worth of Snap-On wrenches and none will work. The best set of header wrenches cost $5, you grind them, heat them, bend them, beat them till they fit. I would not put up with all the trouble you're having, I would've taken a hammer to the headers a long time ago. Beat them till they conform!
A hundred dollars? I wish. Just one of those crows foot was $51. I bet I have $300-$400 in tools just for these header bolts, plus another couple hundred in the bolts themselves. Whew... I have really tried hard to not cut corners or scrimp on parts, and really make this a rock solid project. So far it's working, but expensive. This is only one little area where the budget was completely blown up.
I'm still hemming and hawing on the dimpling. Just don't want to screw them up. I suppose I could try it on one of the holes and see what happens. Decisions decisions.... That first start seems to be getting farther away instead of closer.
I don't know who made the headers. I got them with the already started kit, and as far as I know, they came from FFR with the original kit/original buyer. I'm really not positive on that though. They do look and feel real nice however. Heavier than I remember from the ones I had when I was in high school 45 years ago.
boat737
12-15-2016, 02:23 PM
And still another question: If I end up using non-Percy's/non-Stage 8's bolts in some of the holes, and have to use plain-jane standard header bolts (ARP's), I'll still use anti-seize, but the builder also says to use 242 Loctite on the header bolts. (Edelbrock Victor Jr. Aluminum heads.) I know it sounds counter-intuitive (and probably is), but would Loctite be worthwhile or useful when used with anti-seize? Can, or should, the two be used together?
Railroad
12-15-2016, 03:01 PM
You do not need both. If the head manufacturer recommends a brand use it. I like to use high temp sealer, like another suggested. It will protect the threads, resist backing out and withstand heat.
I would buy socket head bolts with stainless washers, allowing for washer thickness. The washers only need to support the bolt head. Washers are not mandatory, if room does not allow. If you resort to dimpling the tubes, try and use a fiber or wood dowel.
Norm B
12-15-2016, 04:53 PM
I am no expert but I do have a couple of suggestions. I used 3/8 inch 6 point bolts. They provided more clearance and I was able to get a socket on and use a torque wrench on most of the bolts. The rest were tightened with a good wrench while comparing the force of tightening to the bolts installed with the torque wrench. I used anti seize and have not had any come loose yet.
HTH
Norm
Loctite won't work properly unless the surfaces are clean so that eliminates using never seize. I've had a lot of experience with thread lockers in aluminum threads -- mostly bad experience. When I was a machinist I was usually the one trying to fix someone else's mistakes and once a fastener is seized in aluminum (or stainless) it's pretty much fatal. Again, I suggest using a graphite or nickel based never seize. It will help protect the aluminum threads from corroding (galvanic corrosion). Stainless steel and black oxide coated steel will encourage the aluminum to corrode (sacrificial anode) and you may have trouble removing the headers without damaging the aluminum threads. S.S. also tends to gall so I use never seize even if galvanic corrosion from dissimilar metals is not an issue. The ARP fasteners with the 5/16" hex will usually fit where other fasteners won't. If you are worried about them backing out you can drill the heads and safety wire them. On the outside bends you can usually use Stage-8 fasteners or some other locking fasteners -- theres no shame in mixing header bolts as function trumps form.
first time builder
12-15-2016, 07:47 PM
351 w Heads are even worse than the 302"s A combination of bolts , both locking type and regular with Mr. Gasket special header lock washers work best. Oh and tool for headers throw away the snap On's and modify cheap Auto parts wenches.To me the headers are the worst part of the build.
Kenny
boat737
12-15-2016, 09:30 PM
... Oh and tool for headers throw away the snap On's and modify cheap Auto parts wenches....
Kenny
Sacrilege. I can see myself modifying or grinding on them, but I can never bring myself to throw them away. Oh, the humanity...
Mark Dougherty
12-16-2016, 12:12 PM
Ship those headers to me I will dimple them for you FOR FREE
It takes 20 min.
Then ship them back to you
Mark Dougherty
12-16-2016, 12:13 PM
Oh and I have made a header wrench for just about every customer I have
boat737
12-16-2016, 09:37 PM
Thanks for the offer Mark. Very generous, but I am getting farther and farther behind my schedule, and if I don't get those suckers on in the next week, and the motor started before Christmas, I won't be able to until February or even March (I'm getting shipped off for a month in January for work.) So I'll have to either get some bolts to fit, or try the dimpling myself. One way or another, I need to make some progress here. I should have that first start 2 months ago, so time to make a decision and just do it.
WIS89
12-17-2016, 10:47 AM
I think you had a good suggestion above where he said to buy a modestly priced tool, and modify it as necessary to fit.
I wouldn't tear up a good Snap-on tool. However, a cheaper single purpose tool to keep in your toolbox just for the headers makes sense to me.
I also think an advantage is expediency. You can pick up the tool nearby, modify it, and get these bolts tightened in pretty short order. Heck, buy a couple tools, and do a trial and error until you have the solution you need.
Good luck with finding the answer, and please let us know how it turns out.
Regards,
Steve
boat737
12-17-2016, 12:36 PM
Many good ideas here. When I get home next week, I'll tackle these headers in earnest. I'm sure I'll be using a few of these suggested techniques. I think some modified tools will work in some holes, special or modified bolts will work in some holes, and maybe some dimpling of the header will work for some holes. I'm still nervous that dimpling may ruin the ceramic coating though. I'll start small on that process and see how it goes.
Once the headers are finally on, and the RTV has set up a day or two, it's the much anticipated first start next. Getting close, Fingers crossed.
CraigS
12-17-2016, 04:34 PM
... I'm still nervous that dimpling may ruin the ceramic coating though. I'll start small on that process and see how it goes.
Come on buddy, when both Bob Cowan and Mark Dougherty say dimple the tubes you can take the recommendations of these two guys to the bank. So dimple the dang tubes and get those headers on there. Not trying to be a smarta$$, just saying
boat737
12-17-2016, 05:08 PM
Come on buddy, when both Bob Cowan and Mark Dougherty say dimple the tubes you can take the recommendations of these two guys to the bank. So dimple the dang tubes and get those headers on there. Not trying to be a smarta$$, just saying
No offense taken. That's why I'm here, for new ideas, expert advice, and the occasional kick in the butt. I'm on it first thing Monday. I envision making a tool like a sheet metal dolly to use for the forming. I may even have a few dollies left over from the old days that may work. I suspect multiple measured blows as opposed to one big whack, eh? Stand by for the update...
boat737
12-21-2016, 06:39 PM
Progress, and update as promised.
Got out the ball-peen hammer and dolly, and started the dimpling on the headers. First one was a little over done and slightly off center, but got the hang of it after that. A few spots needed no work, most needed minimal dimpling, and a couple a bit more major denting. The spots don't look great, but don't look hideous either. I'll have to wait til tomorrow to bolt them up, since my Snap-On order must have gotten hung up in the midwest weather problems. Since I went to the 12 pt Percy's, I needed 12 pt socket, torque adapter, and crows foot. I could tighten them now, not using a torque wrench, but I have a terrible record of messing up fasteners. So I'll wait for the proper tools, and torque them correctly (at least most of them.)
Bob Cowan
12-22-2016, 01:00 AM
See, it wasn't that hard. Once you get past the first one, anyway. :)
BTW, to be mentioned in the same sentence with Mark is quite an honor. Thanx, CraigS.
boat737
12-22-2016, 09:30 AM
See, it wasn't that hard. Once you get past the first one, anyway. :)
BTW, to be mentioned in the same sentence with Mark is quite an honor. Thanx, CraigS.
Just to have you all respond in my thread, comment on my projects and help me out is quite an honor. Thank you all very much.
Next update should be tomorrow or Saturday. Stand by.
Mark Dougherty
12-22-2016, 03:54 PM
Haaa
you guys are too funny
Congrats you did it. There is something very therapeutic about working with a hammer.
;)
oh and it is myself being honored to be mentioned with you guys.
boat737
12-23-2016, 11:29 PM
Update.
Headers are on. I torqued to 22 Ft.Lb., which I think is in the ballpark. I managed to get a torque wrench on all bolts. I had to grind down my torque adapter/extender though. The combination wrench went on all the bolts, but the extender was a bit beefier, so I ground down one side of it. I had to flip it on each bolt to clear each side of the pipes, but it worked and they are on good and proper.
This was the last big project prior to engine start. Too much rain today to try the first start (we in So. Calif. don't know what to do when it rains). So tomorrow I hope to do the momentous first start.
Glad to hear it worked out. The headers look very cool as does that engine. Your rain has made it's way to Northern Arizona and it's snowing today. We should get a foot today so we'll have another white Christmas. We need it as we're more than a foot behind in snowfall and the season is just starting. Enjoy the holidays and get back to work on that car when the rain lets up.
CraigS
12-24-2016, 07:59 AM
Excellent results.
boat737
12-24-2016, 09:20 AM
Excellent results.
It's thanks to all of you out there. Without all your help, I'd still be sitting on the stool in the garage, scratching my head, staring at the motor, and trying to figure out why the pieces don't fit.
...Your rain has made it's way to Northern Arizona and it's snowing today...
The light bulb just went on. Now I get it... NAZ. Very cool. (I'm a Sun Devil from decades past.)