Bolt Extraction help needed - 351W Lower Alternator Bolt.

[RRussellTx]

Well, Today I started to swap out the Pulley's on my Forte 351w for a new CVF set that includes my Power Steering Pump. I took the following 'before' picture just before I started about an hour ago. The bolt in question is the very lowest one in the alternator bracket in the picture below. It is (sorry WAS) about a 7" long Grade 8 bolt. This bolt actually goes directly in a tab on the DART block specifically for a bolt and is open on the back side. It was a pretty snug when I first started loosening the bolt but I just figured he used some loctite on the bolt or something. I was able to get it backed out about 3 full turns and then it just got harder and harder to turn until the bolt broke. My only theory is that instead of loctite on the bolt, the very end of the bolt may have been damaged. The threaded hole on the tab on the block goes all the way through so maybe he used a longer bolt and then cut the end off??? I have no idea what caused the bolt to lock up and therefore I don't know whether to keep trying to extract the rest of the bolt or to figure out how to screw it back in and through the back side. As stuck as it was, it is not a job that I am looking forward to either way.

I was wondering if anyone else with a recent Forte 351W has had a similar issue or if they can check to see if the end of their bolt looks clean or not...

This is the 'before' shot:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71460&d=1501449801

This is the 'after' shot with the stub of the bolt left on the front of the block:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71463&d=1501450161

Any suggestions/tips on how to extract a Grade 8 bolt (going in or out)?

[2FAST4U]

Heat with propane torch. Drill center hole and use ez out

[Tom Mauldin]

I'd cut a slot in the bolt and use a screw driver to screw it out the back side. A torch would help.

[NAZ]

Stopping and asking how to deal with this is the best thing you could have done. If I had a dollar for all the broken screws that I've removed after someone mangled them first I'd be rich. The good news is it's not a blind hole and you have a bit of the cap screw sticking out from the threaded hole. It sounds like you had a damaged thread on the exposed end that hung up as you were removing the screw. You may be able to screw it back though the hole at least enough you can deal with the damaged end if you have to unscrew it out the front. However, before you do anything give yourself the best chance of success by carefully and precisely drilling a center hole all the way through the broken piece of the screw. It is extremely important that you drill this as precisely as possible so take the time to mark it in the center and drill it concentric all the way through. If you can clean the exposed thread enough to screw a nut on that will allow you to use a transfer punch to center punch the exact center. If you can get one of those long nuts used to connect all thread this will help you drill the hole concentric by hand (maintain equal gap around the ID of the nut while drilling). At this point the size of the hole can be around 1/8" diameter (just a small drill that is sturdy enough and long enough to precisely drill completely through). One you have a pilot hole get a left hand broken screw extractor about 2/3 the diameter of the screw. Another option is to use a smaller diameter socket head screw by drilling and tapping the broken bolt for the socket head screw and using an allen wrench to turn the broken screw through the back side. When a left hand extractor is not available I have sometimes been able to use the square type extractor and turn it in reverse. Your goal is to screw the broken piece out the back side of the hole. Make sure the broken end threads are cleaned up so they won't hang in the threaded hole. If it just wont budge your fall back is to use a drill the size of the minor diameter of the threaded hole (tap drill size) and chase the threads. This is why it's so important to drill through the center of the broken bolt. Good luck.

[HCP 65 COUPE]

IF 2Fast's method does not work. Grind the bolt flush to the block and drill the bolt out with progressively bigger drill bits un till you
break thru the bolt thread minor dia' use a punch and pick to get the rest of the bolt out. Do the absolute best you can to keep the drill on the center of the bolt. If the hole ends up sloppy just drill it out for a heli-coil and retap it then install the heli-coil and your done.

[lakercr]

You could put a nut over the exposed thread then fill the nut with a MIG weld.

[Railroad]

I am going to be assuming a couple of things with my advise. Plan on tightening the bolt and let it run out the back. The threads look clean on the break side, good. If the threads or the bolt is damaged on the back side, continuing to bring it out could break off the lug, not good.
With the bolt being tight enough to break a grade 8 bolt, it will take some effort to get it moving.
If you have a source of heat it might help to heat the bolt and apply some migrating lubricant to the threads. Tapping the bolt or lug with a hammer will help it migrate.
On to the most difficult part. I would consider drilling the end of the break to accept an allen head bolt smaller than the bolt diameter. If you have a welder, you can weld the head to the bolt. If not, drill and tap to thread the allen head bolt into it.
With all the bolt you have sticking out, most people weld a nut on the bolt and back it on out.
If there was not the possibility of breaking the block, it would be the quick and easy, but if you break that block you are going to be one sick puppy.
Last thing I've got is to drill all the way through and use an ease out from the back. If all else fails you can drill out just to the threads, pick out the pieces and run a tap through it. Drilling from the front will rotate the bolt out the back if the heat loosens it and the drill bites hard enough.
Good luck,

[ben1272]

You could put a nut over the exposed thread then fill the nut with a MIG weld.


Ditto this....I have done it many times and between the heat of the welding and the nice new nut to grip with a socket bolt usually comes free easily. If you cant weld, heat helps regardless. Make some tin-foil or wet rag heat shields to protect stuff you dont want heated.

[GWL]

You could put a nut over the exposed thread then fill the nut with a MIG weld.

Remember the grade 8 bolt broke trying to get it out in the first place. May just break again trying to back it out.

I like Railroads suggestion but I'll add the following:

As others have said, I'd drill the center first by filing the end flat then use a marker to blacken the end or Dykem Blue and then center punch the center as best you can. Check the center again and move it if it is not centered by punching on an angle to better center it and hit it again straight once moved. Once you start drilling you can do the same thing with the drill to help keep it centered at the beginning.

Note there are two types of punches, a *****(funny it would not let me write pric-k punch) (60°) for more accurate center location and a center punch (90°) for enlarging the pric-k punch location.

Then as Railroad said, go to the back side and use the easy-out after heating the flange.

George

[wareaglescott]

This thread has been very educational. Please report back how it goes.

[RRussellTx]

Thanks for all the ideas guys!
I have good news and bad news

The bad news is that after reading the ideas - my plan was to drill the hole completely through the bolt and then tap it from the front side and the put a short bolt in from the front side and try and use the same hole to also get an extractor in from the back side and then heat it up and coax it from both ends. After ruining 6 drill bits, I was able to get the hole drilled right in the center and completely through the bolt, but then as I was tapping the threads from the front I pushed it a little too hard and my tap broke off inside the bolt. #$*%$!!!

The good news is that after some colorful language and a few high speed projectiles I decided to check my new CVF pulley kit (part number 302-SERPENTINE-PS) and realized that I don't even need that hole anymore!
So I ground it flush and put a quick coat of paint on it.

My biggest regret on this project is not building the motor myself. I don't mind being angry at myself but I really don't like being angry at others...

Here is the 'after' shot with the first coat of paint...
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71462&d=1501450091

Thanks again for all the help everyone!

[NAZ]

Glad to hear it worked out. Lucky, cause taps can be even harder to get out than alloy set screws or stainless steel bolts.

[first time builder]

RRussel, does your new pulley system mount the alternator thru another long bolt into the top hole outer on the head? If so be very careful of that bolt breaking, dont overtighten the bolt and dont overtighten the belt adjuster. See my thread re that bolt breaking ! I still haven't had time to work on the problem.

Kenny

[CraigS]

For the next time here are a few thoughts. This won't happen quickly so step away for a while and relax. AeroKroil or PB blaster are first steps. Since you already broke off the G8 bolt trying to remove it, you will need to run it in to get it out. Grind a flat screw driver slot or drill and tap for a smaller socket head machine screw. Heat and patience now. I have had success over the years w/ heating either the bolt or the mount ear. The key is several steps of expansion and contraction to loosen the fit. As you heat either you can try very carefully to move the bolt while hot but I have had more luck trying while it has cooled. I also spray w/ either of the above oils to hasten the cool down. Lots of smoke. Generally 3-4 heat cool cycles will get it loose. Sure glad you don't need it now.

[RRussellTx]

Thanks for the heads up Kenny! My new system does mount into the head as you mention. I will definitely be careful, and more importantly as Craig recommends, I will be patient. I have learned to appreciate real patience much more on this project. I have been able to slow myself down and focus on doing better work instead of more work because this is a project for me to enjoy, not to just get done. People at work (where I do a lot of project/deadline driven work) always ask "when will your car be done?" And my answer is always "there are no project plans in MY garage!".

My problem now is that I am starting to see the completed car come together and I'm like the old horse at the end of a long ride that is speeding up to get back to the barn because he's excited about being done. I'm going to take Craig's advice and slow down a little more and enjoy the rest of this ride!

Thanks again for the help and wisdom!

[Brave Salmon]

Did you ever ask Forte about this problem? I am curious if they stand behind their builds and if they offered any help.
Glad you were able to work around it and boy, did we get a broken bolt education from this thread!

[RRussellTx]

Did you ever ask Forte about this problem?

No. This is not my first issue with the engine and I decided a while back that I'm not going to reach out to Mike any more about the engine. At the end of the day, I think you guys are going to be more helpful and less frustrating than working with him - to me anyway. I'm really happy with the parts that Forte sells but I'm not sure I would have been happy with anyone building my motor except maybe someone like Ford Racing as they are making specific proven products on a large scale and not custom one off packages.

Hopefully that was a semi-polite way to answer your question...

[lakercr]

Remember the grade 8 bolt broke trying to get it out in the first place. May just break again trying to back it out.

I like Railroads suggestion but I'll add the following:

As others have said, I'd drill the center first by filing the end flat then use a marker to blacken the end or Dykem Blue and then center punch the center as best you can. Check the center again and move it if it is not centered by punching on an angle to better center it and hit it again straight once moved. Once you start drilling you can do the same thing with the drill to help keep it centered at the beginning.

Note there are two types of punches, a *****(funny it would not let me write pric-k punch) (60°) for more accurate center location and a center punch (90°) for enlarging the pric-k punch location.

Then as Railroad said, go to the back side and use the easy-out after heating the flange.

George

Yup, it might break again, but then you are essentially back to the point you started from with all of the (other) good suggestions in this thread available to you.

[CraigS]

No. This is not my first issue with the engine and I decided a while back that I'm not going to reach out to Mike any more about the engine. At the end of the day, I think you guys are going to be more helpful and less frustrating than working with him - to me anyway. I'm really happy with the parts that Forte sells but I'm not sure I would have been happy with anyone building my motor except maybe someone like Ford Racing as they are making specific proven products on a large scale and not custom one off packages.

Hopefully that was a semi-polite way to answer your question...

Just so you remember, Forte has an absolutely standup rep around here. I am sure he would be helpful. Also Ford Racing isn't perfect. A friend had his FFR built for him 6-7 yrs ago using a Ford crate engine. There was a recall on a batch of them. The builder was also standup and drove 7 hrs one way to pick up his FFR, take it to his shop, replace the engine, and deliver it back again.

[RRussellTx]

Just so you remember, Forte has an absolutely standup rep around here. I am sure he would be helpful. Also Ford Racing isn't perfect. A friend had his FFR built for him 6-7 yrs ago using a Ford crate engine. There was a recall on a batch of them. The builder was also standup and drove 7 hrs one way to pick up his FFR, take it to his shop, replace the engine, and deliver it back again.

Understood,
I freely admit that it's me - not him that has the problems...

[serpent1]

Hello, just reviving this thread, as i recently had the long bolt for my alternator shear at the head (upper bolt, 7/16-14). I was fortunate enough to be able to drill and extract with an EZ out.

Any idea what the torque on the bolt should be; and, what belt tension should be set?

[first time builder]

serpent 1, did it break at head behind a spacer? If so that appears to be the same situation I had. I fabricated a bracket incorporating the spacer in 2016 and that solved the problem. I'll try to find a photo of the bracket .

[first time builder]

See this old thread : https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?24383-New-Alternator-rear-support

[narly1]

One old school trick that worked really well for me when I had a stuck bolt in my 302 timing cover was to heat the fastener up with a propane torch and touch a wax candle (or a crayon) to the fastener. The wax follows the heat and "wicks" down into the threads acting as a lubricant.

Earl

[Otee453]

Lots of advice form others here. My .02... I have a 3 valve Ford V-10 that I use only for towing and it likes to break header bolts. For those header bolts that break off inside or at the surface of the head, I weld a stainless fender washer to the bolt, weld a large nut on the washer and then remove with a wrench. Still have to be gentle with your wrench. Ive not yet had to drill a bolt out.

Put my vote in the "weld a nut to the bolt" category. Or if we are going for most elaborate method... buy a portable EDM and burn it out. You can buy an EDM cheap for less than $5k! Lol

[SJDave]

I used one of these to get a Grade 8 bolt drilled so I could use an EZ out. I put a nut over the piece sticking out and made a bushing to to fit inside the nut to support the drill bit and center it. Keep misting the hole with water every 3 seconds of drilling to keep the diamond dust from getting too hot and falling off.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwaukee-3-16-in-Diamond-Plus-Hole-Saw-W-Arbor-49-56-0503/204994399

[ggunter]

All good info here. The main thing with any bolt extraction is getting it dead centered when drilling. It opens up options for extration. Drill a small amount then check for center. You can usually correct centering the drill if your at the top. once your more then an eighth in your pretty much done. We deal with a lot of broken stainlless steel turbo studs where I work and the best thing I've found for drilling grade eight or stainless steel, or even drilling through a tap is Rescue double ended bits. You can get them in 1/8, 3/16, and 1/4", very pricey, $50.00 each but if they save you tons of time you'll pay three times that much.154359

[emac]

I have to agree with the weld a nut folks. Something about that welder heat that seems to get things moving.

[CraigS]

I have to agree with the weld a nut folks. Something about that welder heat that seems to get things moving.

Absolutely the heat really helps. I often do 3-4 heat/cool cycles. I help it cool by spraying it w/ penetrating oil. Makes a bunch of smoke but PBBlaster, aerokroil, etc help loosen it up. Depending what I am working on I get it just barely to it starts to turn red temp. Let it cool on it's own for a few minutes to make sure you aren't actually doing a hardening process and then spray it until you can touch it w/ bare finger. One other option if anyone has the OPs problem might be to switch to the lower threaded hole in the head.

[CaptB]

Lots of advice form others here. My .02... I have a 3 valve Ford V-10 that I use only for towing and it likes to break header bolts. For those header bolts that break off inside or at the surface of the head, I weld a stainless fender washer to the bolt, weld a large nut on the washer and then remove with a wrench. Still have to be gentle with your wrench. Ive not yet had to drill a bolt out.

Put my vote in the "weld a nut to the bolt" category. Or if we are going for most elaborate method... buy a portable EDM and burn it out. You can buy an EDM cheap for less than $5k! Lol

I've done this many times and I endorse it.

[CraigS]

Funny timing on this. We went out to lunch yesterday and there was a TV w/ a car show on w/o sound right over my wife's shoulder. One of the projects was installing headers and naturally he snapped off a bolt almost flush w/ the head. He used a mig to slowly but surely build up an extension on that bolt that ended up about 3/8" above the surface. Grabbed it w/ a pair of vise grips and unscrewed it, easy peasy.

[emac]

These are a couple of pictures from a 1930 Ford Model A pickup I restored last year. Just about every bolt is a flat head and most have been in for over 90 years. Welding a nut or bolt on the stuck fastener is my go to technique for removing them when an impact driver doesnt get them loose. As others have said, Kroil oil a great product.



154442

154441

[BradCraig]

These have saved my but many times, they grab onto the bolt shaft or rounded head and don't let go. Highly recommend.

154450