View Full Version : Open House Data Dump
thebeerbaron
06-11-2011, 08:21 PM
Data dump from the Open House.
Consider all of this information as public but not authoritative. Lots of things got said today, filtered through my biased ears, and are now being repeated here. I don't think anything was particularly mentioned in confidence, I certainly was never alone with anyone. And I didn't take notes, so none of these are words from the horses mouth. If anyone wants to correct me, please feel free, I won't take it
personally. If any of you riff-raff start taking this as gospel, I will apply my foot to your tail. I hemmed and hawed about posting this, don't make me regret it!
At least three bodies, race car, street car, high-mileage commuter. Dave made a nice little video with West Philly Hybrid X Team talking about their GTM cars and the awesome experience for their students. Lots of talk of cross-pollination there. Lots of talk (possibly including in the intro video - was too busy oogling the chassis to remember it all) of alternate power plants in the back of this thing, especially high-mileage diesel. Also talk of hydrogen instead of batteries, but that one was acknowledged as a ways off.
My understanding of next steps after the design contest will involve taking the best designs and having RISD students produce 1/10th scale clay models to look at and work from. My gut from listening to all this is that some magic will happen in before/during/after this process, either tweaking or outright redesign. Then the selected clays go off to be 3D scanned and turned into molds. Dave has expressed very clearly which body he thinks should be the track car and I'm sure will be fighting hard for it. I'll come out and say it here since he's happy to be told he's wrong: he's wrong - that design does not have the gut impact that this car deserves. :)
In addition to Solidworks, other names that were dropped alongside the 818 were Koni and Wilwood. You'll notice the roller has shocks, but I can't tell if they're the right length or just stand-ins. I had to go back and look at my pictures just now, but there are no brake calipers on the rear for certain and I'm pretty sure there were none on the front.
As I said earlier, frame will be welded using a combination of their computer welder (now used on the '33 Hot Rod) and hand-welding. Flat stuff will be done on the computer and notice how much of the 818 is flat.
As far as top, given the body interchange on this frame a coupe will probably happen, but I don't think it will be part of the initial release. As far as the roadster having a top, Dave waved that off as something that'll just happen. Again, not gospel.
The gas tank - currently it is under the seats but the frame members to keep it there are non-structural bolt-in affairs, making it easy to eliminate. By coincidence the tank from the '33 Hot Rod fits in the narrow triangle behind the seat backs, giving Wookies an easy way to gain head clearance. Cost is the motivator here, the tank and pump and sender and all that stuff are big ticket/complexity.
My parting words to Dave were "Please make it metric" and the reaction was that it is probably inevitable, given the target audience. I like that answer.
I hate to say this out loud and commit it to the collective memory, but general time frame is around a year out.
One other notable thing - I think Dave understands that the target in aesthetic taste is not necessarily his taste and that others will have a say in it. My interpretation, and this is only interpretation, not based on anything specifically said (though something may have been said), is that there will be significant changes between the contest winners and the production.
I met some very nice folks at the open house, hopefully I'll remember you all - judges Jeremy Luchini of Solidworks and Michael Lye of RISD, who I blame for not selecting my design ;) but were otherwise good company, massively knowledgable, and open. Justin from this forum, who got an accidental sneak-peak at the winners and was very good about keeping his mouth shut until 10am. Tom Heath from Grassroots who provided some fun color on the processes behind the scenes. Others too who I am forgetting...
Best news of all for me: this could have been a truck, but someone at FFR is more sane than Dave :)
riptide motorsport
06-11-2011, 08:32 PM
All good news!
blueafro
06-11-2011, 08:38 PM
Dave has expressed very clearly which body he thinks should be the track car and I'm sure will be fighting hard for it. I'll come out and say it here since he's happy to be told he's wrong: he's wrong - that design does not have the gut impact that this car deserves. :)
Which one is that?
Doc_FFR
06-11-2011, 08:38 PM
he's wrong - that design does not have the gut impact that this car deserves. :)
Clarify please. Is this another design than #1? Not sure which ones you are talking about. If you are objecting to the winner then I sorrowfully agree with you.
I would have been estatic with #2 or #3, but I keep looking at the sketches, following the links to the 3D renders, squinting real hard, and saying to myself... "What were they thinking?"
I think back end is fine, but the front end, well... These cars sell (IMHO) because of the passion they evoke. What I see in the 818 right now doesn't have any of that.
thebeerbaron
06-11-2011, 08:56 PM
The 818-R by Xabier. I should have kept my mouth shut instead of being snarky. Don't let's discuss whether I'm right or wrong, just let me be snarky for a second, ok? :)
Doc_FFR
06-11-2011, 09:06 PM
double post
Doc_FFR
06-11-2011, 09:09 PM
At least three bodies, race car, street car, high-mileage commuter.
Okay Mr Snarky ;)
Are you saying the 818 is going to come in three different body styles??? That'll cost them a bit extra in R&D won't it? :)
So there's a chance the Xabier design will see the light of day after all... Things are looking a bit better now.
i was a bit sad xabiers only got to third, but if the top three get translated to the three different bodies there is still hope...
thebeerbaron
06-11-2011, 09:24 PM
Okay Mr Snarky ;)
Are you saying the 818 is going to come in three different body styles??? That'll cost them a bit extra in R&D won't it? :)
Dave equated this car to a swatch watch. Multiple bodies. I think he even said as much earlier this week on this forum.
thebeerbaron
06-11-2011, 09:25 PM
Wow, no one cares about the mechanical details revealed today?
Vman7
06-11-2011, 09:29 PM
Wow, no one cares about the mechanical details revealed today?
I do :) tells us a lot, gives us a little more of an idea in which way the car is going. Thanks for the info :)
riptide motorsport
06-11-2011, 09:36 PM
xbier race version is AWESomE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would even paint it just like he presented it!
Oppenheimer
06-11-2011, 09:45 PM
Wow, no one cares about the mechanical details revealed today?
Was there much surprising there? I read the other open house posts, doesn't seem like there is much we didn't already know/suspect chassis wise.
Back to the body thing. So initial plans are a, Street, Track & Commuter, right? Did you get a sense if the #1, #2, & #3 in any way correlate to these three 818 versions? I assume no, but something said somewhere made me wonder. If yes, which is which?
Any sense if the body styles, and intended purposes (drivetrains), will be mix n' match or not (choose Commuter body, but Street drivetrain, etc?) I wouldn't think there would be much that would preclude this.
Anyone notice that Jim's Judges Pick was a coupe? (the only coupe I think that was on the winners list) Wondering what to read into that...
keys2heaven
06-11-2011, 10:45 PM
The 818-R by Xabier. I should have kept my mouth shut instead of being snarky. Don't let's discuss whether I'm right or wrong, just let me be snarky for a second, ok? :)
I knew it!
keys2heaven
06-11-2011, 10:47 PM
Well, sure. I feel somewhat vindicated now for my gas up in the humps area which led to a rather spirited discussion. I've posted in that thread that a fuel cell design somewhat similar to a Formula 1 car might fit the bill, but cost might be the ultimate factor in this.
keys2heaven
06-11-2011, 10:55 PM
From another post. Seems I wasn't too far off Dave's thinking.
818 Drift (Nimble...think SpeedBoy or even the Carve)
818 Euro (Sleek & sexy...think SW1)
818 ProAm (Street/Track...think Xabier's 818-R)
Oh, and still very surprised that SW1's concept didn't take an award. It has some very nice lines.
Cooluser23
06-12-2011, 01:02 AM
As long as the gas tank isn't under the seat and the seats are mounted as low as possible, I'm fine with the winners.
I like some of the other judge's picks more than the Top 3 winners, but things may change before the final production car.
I wonder if there will be a styling buck at SEMA '11.
FFRWRX
06-12-2011, 07:31 AM
I was there as well and it was great. Dave didn't actually say much as fact, but a lot of what he would like to see. Fair enough since it is still very early in the program. Did I hear right when he mentioned the he did not necessarily agree with the judges choices? Did you get that impression too Beerbaron? He said something about paying out the money ("which was very well spent", or something to that effect), but "it's my company and I can do what I like" (again something to that effect). It wasn't said with any displeasure at all, just an interesting and factual statement. And he did say that it would have a soft-top of some sort since he did acknowledge that one reason the Spyder didn't make it was the lack of a soft-top. And yes, 3 body styles will be released with the basic one (the roadster) coming first.
Rick
Someday I Suppose
06-12-2011, 08:26 AM
Beer, good information, thanks buddy. Interesting on the tanks, I knew they were looking at the hot rod tank as it is in house, but using the donor tank would of course keep the cost down. Looks like there is some room under the seat though as they sit higher then I think anyone imagined, which also makes the diagonal supports much less of a concern.
_Scott
crackedcornish
06-12-2011, 08:35 AM
did they announce a name for the car at the open house?
Rotr8
06-12-2011, 08:42 AM
wow, after reading all this as well as the small backlash in the contest winners thread there's one thing that's a real shame is that the contestant that clearly generated the most interest and enthusiasm out of the potential customer base was left with the least compensation, such a shame, more of Xabier's will probably sell that any of the other available platforms.
FFRWRX
06-12-2011, 09:17 AM
did they announce a name for the car at the open house?
no.
keys2heaven
06-12-2011, 09:20 AM
If I were in charge of a car company (and thank God I'm not), the most important aspect of the design competition would be to get a pulse of what designs generate the most enthusiasm. What similarities exist among the various designs? What features is the community screaming for (removable top)? Can it be done at the price point we advertised?
FF, as I'm sure they hoped, now has a plethora of designs that they can pull from. Hence, if BeerBaron is correct, they will take some of the top design and send to RISD for further development and clay modeling.
There are a couple of designs that I wouldn't mind seeing going from paper to product, but I'm sure every design will need to be refined to some extent.
And I can't tell you how excited I am about the prospect of multiple bodies. That's freaking awesome. (or as they say in MA....wicked).
Any info on what parts will be used from the wrx?
Dave Smith
06-12-2011, 10:46 AM
I am relieved to have the contest over, and even more, impressed with the quality of the submissions. Its no mistake that I LOVED Xabiers track-focused 818R red/white car. Don't be too sad that Xabiers car ONLY got third over-all, there were 700+ submissions!
There are other details that I could not get to but this next week will see alot of fun stuff begin now that the contest is over. The judges selections were sure to be met with a variety of ups and downs, but these guys deserve a great amount of thanks for giving structure to the whole thing. The judges worked very long hours (OVER 700 Designs!).
There is a ton to talk about and I would like to turn the discussion over to some public voting on maybe the top 30 or so cars. That would be fun!
Im going to take it easy for the rest of the day, but this car has a very exciting future as each FFR has its place, this one has three. There will be three bodies on this chassis. and there will be three very distinctly capable and different cars from this great chassis.
More tomorrow.. To those of you who braved the rain yesterday and filled the building, THANKS! To the 818 crew for supporting this car and starting the development with us, Thanks also. We wont let you down with bland designs. The car will look greta and will take its place alongside the established FFR models.
keys2heaven
06-12-2011, 10:51 AM
Data dump from the Open House.
Lots of talk (possibly including in the intro video - was too busy oogling the chassis to remember it all) of alternate power plants in the back of this thing, especially high-mileage diesel. Also talk of hydrogen instead of batteries, but that one was acknowledged as a ways off.
Very interested in the high mileage diesel option. I saw a report about Ireland getting Subie Boxer Diesel's in their Imprezas. .
kach22i
06-12-2011, 01:27 PM
There is a ton to talk about and I would like to turn the discussion over to some public voting on maybe the top 30 or so cars. That would be fun!
Great idea, sounds like the design process will continue and also the collection of marketing data. You guys are going to make the text books and be an example for other companies.
I've enjoyed it so far.
thebeerbaron, thank you for your awesome post and all the information. The future looks interesting.
Doc_FFR
06-12-2011, 05:14 PM
He said something about paying out the money ("which was very well spent", or something to that effect), but "it's my company and I can do what I like"
Pardon my french, but... Damn right!
When I heard that he wasn't a judge a while back I thought to myself, "Yeah, but what if he doesn't like the final product? Would he be stuck?"
DaveM
06-12-2011, 05:23 PM
I was there as well-Beer did a great job with the details. One thing I noticed was a rather spirited back and forth with Bob Tasca of Tasca Ford regarding the ecotec power plants and their mileage and power potential. I would not be surprised if there was an alternate Ford based ecotec engine option-Dave seemed to imply this was not only feasible but possible in the future. Time line for production of the first version of the 818 is at least a year per Dave's statement-he does not wants a deadline FFR cannot meet. Also there are going to be 5-6 beta builders (Cheney was mentioned) that will do initial builds. Body concept to first glass was mentioned as 6 to 9 months. Bodies will be high quality gel coat-the C----Roadster he had in the show room he pointed to was flawless -I thought it was paint.
Dave
Jeff Collins
06-12-2011, 06:33 PM
I am impressed with what I saw and heard of the 818. I am excited to see what is next.
Flashburn
06-12-2011, 08:00 PM
Can we get pics of the gel coat?
16g-95gsx
06-12-2011, 10:04 PM
The 818-R by Xabier. I should have kept my mouth shut instead of being snarky. Don't let's discuss whether I'm right or wrong, just let me be snarky for a second, ok? :)
From what I have seen thus far I think that this is the design that I like best. There have been some other great ideas, but from the standpoint of a lightweight dedicated chassis, this one seems to likely fit the bill best without looking kit-car-esque. Some of the others look great but from the standpoint of simplicity it seems like they have too much extra crap added in, which never seems to get respect from real racers. I don't want a single piece on the exterior of the car, adding weight, that doesn't add to the performance. Form always follows function in my mind.
As for the gas tank, while running a stock tank may be great for many, I simply don't see the reason in placing the driver any higher than they absolutely need be on a chassis so light. Again, some people may want to skimp on a few hundred bucks, but I just simply don't see the point when it can easily be remedied and is vital to the CG on such a car. With an average driver weighing 185lbs, you are dealing with almost 10% of the total vehicle weight placed much higher than it even needs to be placed.
Great to see things weight well at the open house. I'm very eager to see it all come to life at this point. I like the idea of a street and a track version, as honestly the reasons people build these things will vary, and I'd rather have one dedicated to what I want, than a watered down version just to cater to the masses.
Thanks to the FFR crew and Dave for your hard work so far.
TroyLynx
06-13-2011, 02:05 PM
Wow, no one cares about the mechanical details revealed today?
I for one am more interested in the chassis. But this car must be like a woman in public. You don't want to be seen with an ugly woman. No matter what her personality is on the inside.
Also a side note. Can't wait for the parts list to come out. From the pictures I have seen, does not look like but the 4 knuckles and 2 front lower control arms are used. I hope Dave keeps us updated on the progress.
Did any of you who went get an idea of what the final car(s) will include? Roll up windows, ect.
Cooluser23
06-13-2011, 03:39 PM
I for one am more interested in the chassis. But this car must be like a woman in public. You don't want to be seen with an ugly woman. No matter what her personality is on the inside.
Also a side note. Can't wait for the parts list to come out. From the pictures I have seen, does not look like but the 4 knuckles and 2 front lower control arms are used. I hope Dave keeps us updated on the progress.
I'm also more interested in the chassis and suspension setup. I hope there will be a detailed official blog that talks about it. I wonder if the chassis/suspension is designed to survive the use of a rally car.
olpro
06-13-2011, 03:56 PM
Also very interested in the chassis development.
Of course my first question would be will it be available as a roller, for those who might want to develop their own body? Other questions would request more details on how the shifter is done, how specifically the steering wheel unit is done, and will a digital download eventually be available for those who want to do their own body designs? The download would need to include all critical clearance and body mount data, not necessarily all the proprietary details.
I realize that it is too early for these questions... just hope they are moving toward the answers and will make them available in due time.
FFRWRX
06-13-2011, 06:43 PM
Did any of you who went get an idea of what the final car(s) will include? Roll up windows, ect.
It's way too early for this info. They haven't got a final body design for any of the versions they will release. I certainly wouldn't count on roll up windows for the roadster.
thebeerbaron
06-13-2011, 06:50 PM
As for the gas tank, while running a stock tank may be great for many, I simply don't see the reason in placing the driver any higher than they absolutely need be on a chassis so light.
Dave covered this in pretty good detail at the open house, I'll expand upon my synopsis above:
Money. About $500 if my memory serves correctly. Hard to find the room for that in the budget. As above, the hot rod tank will miraculously fit, but it sounds like an extra-cost option instead of part of the $9900 kit.
Dave covered this in pretty good detail at the open house, I'll expand upon my synopsis above:
Money. About $500 if my memory serves correctly. Hard to find the room for that in the budget. As above, the hot rod tank will miraculously fit, but it sounds like an extra-cost option instead of part of the $9900 kit.
I assume if you used the hot rod tank you could move the seating position to the floor? Also any idea how tall the car is ground to top of roll bar?
readymix
06-13-2011, 07:09 PM
Something to keep in mind here, the subaru gas tank is wide and flat. I think alot of you are assuming you'll be sitting on top of what amounts to a 5 gallon bucket under both seats. It's actually very wide and flat, not as tall as you're likely thinking. I don't have one sitting around otherwise I'd take a pic of it. Judging by the pics of the chassis, I can kinda see what they are intending. Those two aluminum panels on the seating area would cover the tank, with the open area behind the aluminum panels and forward of the main rollbar hoop being where the fuelpump assembly and access panels would stick up. Likely with a custom panel for running the fill tube, or running the fill tube into the engine bay.
I agree, it isn't ideal, but it isn't nearly as bad as you might be picturing in your head. I would like to see an aftermarket option, or possibly just have one fabbed up, but the chassis is already setup for this tank placement it seems, it isn't as simple as "just take the tank out and mount the seats lower" as there is cross bracing there, and they are likely going to use the gas tank as part of the frame rigidity by bolting into place there, tying the points together.
thebeerbaron
06-13-2011, 07:15 PM
I assume if you used the hot rod tank you could move the seating position to the floor?
Yes. As above, the bars that locate the tank (or would in the prototype frame on display) are non-structural and removable.
16g-95gsx
06-13-2011, 08:32 PM
Absolutely no one would use a fuel tank as frame rigidity, just an FYI. It would be a completely non structural member whatsoever. I'm truly hoping that the track version of this car would not have this kind of complication. These are the kind of things that I would completely assume to be cut out of a dedicated track car for obvious reasons. I'm fully expecting the standard 818 to be 1800lbs and the track version significantly less due to the fact that they can cut out this excess "fat".
500 for a fuel cell is a small price to pay to lower the CG of a dedicated car, although Id want no extra mounting tabs etc added that would only add weight and cost to the car that is unecessary, hence the reason I can see that being standard on a track version.
Oppenheimer
06-13-2011, 11:04 PM
Absolutely no one would use a fuel tank as frame rigidity, just an FYI.
Pretty sure he meant the frame structures used to mount the tank would be structural, not the tank itself. But from what BeerBaron said, that is not the case, tank frame members bolt in, and the '33 HotRod tank will find behind the seats, so the Subie tank, and its mounting frame, could be eliminated (this lowering the seats). That would certainly imply the tank mounting frame is not structural.
That also means no need to source a fuel cell just to sit lower (for Wookies or for lower cg of human mass - or both), as it sounds like '33 tank would be an 818 option. Heres to hoping they let you delete the tank mounting bits (tank frame, hardware, etc) to offset the cost of the '33 tank a little.
Anyone know how many gallons the '33 tank holds?
mn_vette
06-14-2011, 01:06 PM
It may be interesting to have both tanks installed. This would give you the possibility of setting up something for an extended range. Or perhaps running two different octane fuels. One for off boost and one for on.
armstrom
06-14-2011, 01:29 PM
it looks like the steering column support would have to be changed also . it would mount the wheel way too high. I have a feeling there will be a big "ut oh" moment the first time they mock the car up with a rough body and stock tank/seats. But I'm no expert :) Maybe I'm just not seeing the whole picture but with the stock tank under the stock seats I can't help but picture the driver sitting ON the car rather than IN the car. Which just isn't a good look to me :( I REALLY hope I'm 100% wrong on this though.
-Matt
Maybe I'm just not seeing the whole picture but with the stock tank under the stock seats I can't help but picture the driver sitting ON the car rather than IN the car. Which just isn't a good look to me :( I REALLY hope I'm 100% wrong on this though.
-Matt
When I look at pictures of the chassis I see the same thing. Just imagine how much different a car looks when the overall height is lowered 6".
Cooluser23
06-14-2011, 02:28 PM
Dave covered this in pretty good detail at the open house, I'll expand upon my synopsis above:
Money. About $500 if my memory serves correctly. Hard to find the room for that in the budget. As above, the hot rod tank will miraculously fit, but it sounds like an extra-cost option instead of part of the $9900 kit.
I'm willing to shell out an extra $500 for a low seating position. At the $10.000 kit price, what's another $500 between friends. Most kits are over budget anyways. Besides, I don't expect the $10.000 price to stand the test of time. During development costs generally tend to go up.
Cooluser23
06-14-2011, 02:33 PM
Something to keep in mind here, the subaru gas tank is wide and flat. I think alot of you are assuming you'll be sitting on top of what amounts to a 5 gallon bucket under both seats. It's actually very wide and flat, not as tall as you're likely thinking. I don't have one sitting around otherwise I'd take a pic of it. Judging by the pics of the chassis, I can kinda see what they are intending. Those two aluminum panels on the seating area would cover the tank, with the open area behind the aluminum panels and forward of the main rollbar hoop being where the fuelpump assembly and access panels would stick up. Likely with a custom panel for running the fill tube, or running the fill tube into the engine bay.
I agree, it isn't ideal, but it isn't nearly as bad as you might be picturing in your head. I would like to see an aftermarket option, or possibly just have one fabbed up, but the chassis is already setup for this tank placement it seems, it isn't as simple as "just take the tank out and mount the seats lower" as there is cross bracing there, and they are likely going to use the gas tank as part of the frame rigidity by bolting into place there, tying the points together.
I did a quick google search:
http://static.upillar.com/pictures/resources/699852/supersize/fuel%20tank%20as%20arrived.jpg?1297195930
http://static.upillar.com/pictures/resources/699851/supersize/fuel%20whole%20tank%2001.jpg?1297196095
Is that the right tank?
I also just remembered that most cars at junk yards have a hole drilled in the fuel tank, so reusing a Subaru tank may not be feasible anyways. Maybe others could chime in with their experience.
TroyLynx
06-14-2011, 02:42 PM
Most Salvage yards will not damage or drill a hole in the tank until all usable parts are taken from the car or truck. Only when the car or tank is ready for the salvage yard does the hole get drilled.
Cooluser23
06-14-2011, 02:48 PM
As an alternative, what about a Pontiac Fiero like fuel tank between the seats?
http://www.qsl.net/ki7cx/feultank.jpg
It is long and narrow, and has the benefit of being mounted low in the car and in the dead center, so as it drains then handling remains unaffected. (unlike let's say a Lamborghini Miura, where the front end would get lighter as the tank (mounted in the front) drains)
http://www.pontiacperformance.net/CarImages/87_FieroSE/87Fiero_Gauges_2_sm.JPG
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTnTiXCRPUZ5ktcsBeOteW2C-CIKMyuP0UV46EezNhwZvaDINMH&t=1
http://home.xnet.com/~paulv/88Form5.jpg
http://home.xnet.com/~paulv/88Form6.jpg
http://home.xnet.com/~paulv/88Form7.jpg
Note: as you can see, the center rib, is actually neither very tall, nor very wide. (but it does strengthen the chassis quite a bit.) Pontiac's interior designers for some reason chose to put a very wide plastic interior cover piece over the narrow tunnel to allow to twin ash trays and an arm rest.
I also know it's very early, but I hope the fuel tank is big enough to allow for a >200 mile range on 1 tank. (as a matter of convenience) (The Fiero tank is either 10gallon, or 12gallon, and only allows for about 200-220miles of spirited driving) This is probably not an issue for a racetrack car, as the car can be filled up in the pits.
My biggest worry is not that the subaru tank will be used, because I can always take it out. It's what the higher seating position will do to the looks of the car. I can't change that. A lotus elise looks a little tall and squatty and its only 44" tall. How much higher does the subie tank raise the seating position? 6"? 8"? did anybody measure at the open house?
Pretty sure he meant the frame structures used to mount the tank would be structural, not the tank itself. But from what BeerBaron said, that is not the case, tank frame members bolt in, and the '33 HotRod tank will find behind the seats, so the Subie tank, and its mounting frame, could be eliminated (this lowering the seats). That would certainly imply the tank mounting frame is not structural.
That also means no need to source a fuel cell just to sit lower (for Wookies or for lower cg of human mass - or both), as it sounds like '33 tank would be an 818 option. Heres to hoping they let you delete the tank mounting bits (tank frame, hardware, etc) to offset the cost of the '33 tank a little.
Anyone know how many gallons the '33 tank holds?
The Boyd tank (a far better option for the 33) holds about 16 gallons.
Pretty sure he meant the frame structures used to mount the tank would be structural, not the tank itself. But from what BeerBaron said, that is not the case, tank frame members bolt in, and the '33 HotRod tank will find behind the seats, so the Subie tank, and its mounting frame, could be eliminated (this lowering the seats). That would certainly imply the tank mounting frame is not structural.
That also means no need to source a fuel cell just to sit lower (for Wookies or for lower cg of human mass - or both), as it sounds like '33 tank would be an 818 option. Heres to hoping they let you delete the tank mounting bits (tank frame, hardware, etc) to offset the cost of the '33 tank a little.
Anyone know how many gallons the '33 tank holds?
You might want to read a little more thoroughly they are likely going to use the gas tank as part of the frame rigidity by bolting into place there, tying the points together.
thebeerbaron
06-14-2011, 05:24 PM
JRL - not sure where you got that idea, or why you're so emphatic about it. All I can say is that at the open house, Dave said the bars for mounting the stock tank would not be structural and would be bolted into place. Nothing about the tank being structural. Of course things may change...
olpro
06-14-2011, 05:31 PM
Beerbaron, any mention of how they will do a shifter on this car? I assume that it will be done well but using a front wheel drive unit in the rear leads to big complications in this area.
Benji
06-14-2011, 06:04 PM
Beerbaron, any mention of how they will do a shifter on this car? I assume that it will be done well but using a front wheel drive unit in the rear leads to big complications in this area.
Several of the exo kit cars using the impreza engine in this layout have managed it, usually it's something along similar lines as what they do in the GTM/SL-C/Ultima using cables or rods with good success.
bromikl
06-14-2011, 07:23 PM
With no center hump I can put in bench seating. Three across and two on a good night. :)
Oppenheimer
06-14-2011, 07:39 PM
You might want to read a little more thoroughly they are likely going to use the gas tank as part of the frame rigidity by bolting into place there, tying the points together.
Well I was reading between the lines. I knew enough to realize that people sometimes don't express themselves perfectly, but wih a little discernment, you can figure out what they mean.
RedJoker
06-14-2011, 07:40 PM
With no center hump I can put in bench seating. Three across and two on a good night. :)
^^^^ this is what will get me to build this car. Simply brilliant.
:D
thebeerbaron
06-14-2011, 08:05 PM
Hey, if I can get three across, that's better than a good night, that's "Dear Penthouse..." :)
Olpro no mention of the shifter setup, and nothing was fabbed for it.
JRL - not sure where you got that idea, or why you're so emphatic about it. All I can say is that at the open house, Dave said the bars for mounting the stock tank would not be structural and would be bolted into place. Nothing about the tank being structural. Of course things may change...
Go back and READ post #40 by Readymix - he said they would likely use the tank as a structural member which is what I copied and made bold. Then 16g-95gsx pointed out that was not likely. Then Oppeinhammer made a comment that obviously missed the statement by Readymix. All I was doing was trying to point out the errors of those that can't follow along.
Steve91T
06-14-2011, 09:34 PM
As an alternative, what about a Pontiac Fiero like fuel tank between the seats?
http://www.qsl.net/ki7cx/feultank.jpg
It is long and narrow, and has the benefit of being mounted low in the car and in the dead center, so as it drains then handling remains unaffected. (unlike let's say a Lamborghini Miura, where the front end would get lighter as the tank (mounted in the front) drains)
http://www.pontiacperformance.net/CarImages/87_FieroSE/87Fiero_Gauges_2_sm.JPG
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTnTiXCRPUZ5ktcsBeOteW2C-CIKMyuP0UV46EezNhwZvaDINMH&t=1
http://home.xnet.com/~paulv/88Form5.jpg
http://home.xnet.com/~paulv/88Form6.jpg
http://home.xnet.com/~paulv/88Form7.jpg
Note: as you can see, the center rib, is actually neither very tall, nor very wide. (but it does strengthen the chassis quite a bit.) Pontiac's interior designers for some reason chose to put a very wide plastic interior cover piece over the narrow tunnel to allow to twin ash trays and an arm rest.
I also know it's very early, but I hope the fuel tank is big enough to allow for a >200 mile range on 1 tank. (as a matter of convenience) (The Fiero tank is either 10gallon, or 12gallon, and only allows for about 200-220miles of spirited driving) This is probably not an issue for a racetrack car, as the car can be filled up in the pits.
I've said the same thing, but using the MR2 as the example. Pretty much the same thing. For some reason, most people don't understand it and feel that fuel separating themselves with their passengers is dangerous. I don't get it myself. I've never heard of an MR2 or Fiero blowing up on impact (although Fiero's did have a tendency to catch on fire :)
It would be so simple to modify the frame to accept this type of fuel tank. It's a perfect design for a mid engine car.
Steve
riptide motorsport
06-14-2011, 10:24 PM
Its the perfect design for a mid engine car because it was designed for and in a mid engined car!
Flamshackle
06-15-2011, 03:34 AM
Great info and good call on middle tank... Cant believe I was about to buy a murtaya! This has set me on a new path (If xaviers car gets built)
Someday I Suppose
06-15-2011, 08:01 AM
Subaru guys help me out here, but I THINK that the stock shifter is a cable link unit, so they might be able to retain that no?
Beerbaron, any mention of how they will do a shifter on this car? I assume that it will be done well but using a front wheel drive unit in the rear leads to big complications in this area.
thebeerbaron
06-15-2011, 10:09 AM
From looking at the underside of my donor, the shifter works via a shaft into the transmission. No cables.
FFRWRX
06-15-2011, 11:45 AM
I'm sure they won't use a Fiero tank. Try to find one in good condition these days. And for a "world car" there just wouldn't be enough of them available.
Oppenheimer
06-15-2011, 03:07 PM
Go back and READ post #40 by Readymix - he said they would likely use the tank as a structural member which is what I copied and made bold. Then 16g-95gsx pointed out that was not likely. Then Oppeinhammer made a comment that obviously missed the statement by Readymix. All I was doing was trying to point out the errors of those that can't follow along.
Didn't miss what readymix said, just was able to understand what he meant, as opposed to what he typed. I'm not always great at that, but this time it was easy. I tried to make that clear by saying "Pretty sure he meant..."
Oppenheimer
06-15-2011, 03:12 PM
So any word on how much the rolling chassis weighs? Its not a go-kart, missing tank, wiring, plumbing, shifter, some brake stuff, etc (and of course interior, body, all the body support structure, AL panels, etc). But knowing how much what they got so far weighs would be nice to know.
Oppenheimer
06-15-2011, 09:33 PM
Oh, and any word on gelcoat colors? One of the key attributes of the 818 is no paint body. That is much more appealing if multiple color options are offered.
thebeerbaron
06-15-2011, 09:39 PM
No, and no.
16g-95gsx
06-16-2011, 07:17 AM
Beerbaron, what did this car's uprights/spindles look like? I'm having a tough time seeing it from the images. Are they custom pieces or are we dealing with some donor vehicle's factory components?
thebeerbaron
06-16-2011, 10:10 AM
The rears are obviously WRX uprights. I didn't get a very good look at the fronts, but from what I saw I'm sure they're WRX components. Remember, the goal of this kit is single-donor using a 2002-200? WRX.
bromikl
06-16-2011, 10:43 PM
I'm sure they won't use a Fiero tank. Try to find one in good condition these days. And for a "world car" there just wouldn't be enough of them available.
I wouldn't think they'd use the actual tank from a Fiero. Only the concept of storing the fuel in a low, central location. I doubt they'd even need to modify the frame.
Gollum
06-17-2011, 02:32 AM
thebaron says there will be a top, it's gospel truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(that was a joke for some of you folk by the way...)
Thank you for the reports, and I have to admit though none of the ideas really came as a shock, I was somewhat surprised. The TDI idea is what caught me off guard but now that I think about it, why not? Donors are cheap and the TDI power train are very well proven and very capable at delivering 45+mpg in anything but a aero brick, while still offering enough power to propel the 818 into low class Porsche acceleration realms.
I'm still curious how this will all pan out though. There's still a million questions and I'm sure Dave will be answering at least a taste of then soon enough. I just can't wait to actually have something concrete in my hands. As excited as I am about this project, there's very little to take to others that might not share some "ffr love" and get them excited about it. In reality I think the whole car world should be excited about this project on some level, but we just don't have the goods yet. That being said don't think that I believe FFR is holding out on us or anything. If anything they've given TOO MUCH information out so that some of us fanatics have gotten our appetites wet and we're salivating waiting for more now.
So here I stand (or sit in this chair rather) waiting with baited breath.
Oppenheimer
06-17-2011, 08:49 PM
As excited as I am about this project, there's very little to take to others that might not share some "ffr love" and get them excited about it.
"So there's this small component car manufacturer in MA, with proven success, that is making a new model. For like $15K you can build a supercar killer. Its gonna have killer looks, awesome handling, crazy acceleration. You can also build it with TDI powertrain, and get 75 mpg, still have all the handling, and still get like 6 sec 0-60."
That should be pretty exciting.
hmm i don't know why it didn't occur to me before (sobriety?) but the stock tank will extend back behind the seats towards the engine correct? (unless we are sitting on the humped portion in which case that is a bit too high up to be seated, over the lower portions would be height that the seats in the subaru are at but that puts the seats farther forward...) either way a portion extends towards the engine... my point is without that piece pushing into the engine i wonder how much room for an H6 (or whatever crazy engines we are looking into nowadays)
so if the tank does fit completely in the cabin and is moved towards the front of the car, it wont leave much space in the foot well since the tank would extend forward past the front seats
and if the tank extends towards the rear of the car then perhaps it takes room away from possible engine options but the seat height is much lower (well the same as it would be in a stock seat in a WRX) i assume this would be preferred since it allows room behind the seats (though the seat couldn't slide backwards to take advantage of this room due to the height difference in the tank) it would be nice to have the space between the back of the seats and the firewall for storage and speakers and whatnot
i know i have argued FOR the stock tank but the change in available engine compartment space using a fuel cell would be significant (i dont really want an H6 but extra room for changing belts is nice)
just thinking (and typing) out loud
thebeerbaron
06-18-2011, 06:23 AM
i wonder how much room for an H6 (or whatever crazy engines we are looking into nowadays)
If you look at the Open House pictures or video, you may be able to see the distance between the crank pulley and the frame. I am not a laser distance measurer, but from behind the velvet ropes at the Open House, I guessed that it was somewhere around 1-2". Definitely not the 4" you'd need for the H6. From Dave's comments, plenty of other engine choices will fit. As far as belt changing - making the firewall behind the cockpit removable (in pieces, obviously) would help tremendously.
crackedcornish
06-18-2011, 01:10 PM
If you look at the Open House pictures or video, you may be able to see the distance between the crank pulley and the frame. I am not a laser distance measurer, but from behind the velvet ropes at the Open House, I guessed that it was somewhere around 1-2". Definitely not the 4" you'd need for the H6. From Dave's comments, plenty of other engine choices will fit. As far as belt changing - making the firewall behind the cockpit removable (in pieces, obviously) would help tremendously.
according to these guys you only need an extra 1 1/2"s over the length of the 4cyl to be able to squeeze a 3.0liter H6 in there
http://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/motor_matrix.htm
Gollum
06-18-2011, 01:17 PM
"So there's this small component car manufacturer in MA, with proven success, that is making a new model. For like $15K you can build a supercar killer. Its gonna have killer looks, awesome handling, crazy acceleration. You can also build it with TDI powertrain, and get 75 mpg, still have all the handling, and still get like 6 sec 0-60."
That should be pretty exciting.
See that's the problem. People like US here on this forum find it exciting. Without something tangible to look at most people just say "hmm... seems like a neat idea" and don't really go beyond that initial thought.
It's hard to get across to people that the realistic budget for a roadster has always been around 25k to do it on the cheap. And performance figures alone usually don't win a crowd over. Usually it's the other way around. The LOOK of a car gets people interested, then the FIGURES get them excited. Then the FEEL of it is usually where they buy in for good. This is where kit cars have always had a hard time, is that one normally doesn't get much chance to understand how it will FEEL to drive it and have to build it on faith, or hoping they can build it as well as someone else who's car they rode in.
We've seen that even with the GTM that though it can offer supercar straight line performance, it takes a lot of work to get the suspension and chassis setup just right that it won't kill the amateur/novice driver. It might sound completely backwards to the type on this forum, but most people that saw the GTM in Car and Driver and thought "wow that looks awesome" are probably better off just buying a Corvette rather than building a GTM, even if they have the time and money.
This is where the 818 has a chance to shine. FFR already has the GTM and won't be designing a car that people expect to handle like a supercar at 200mph. They'll be designing a car that people expect to handle like the high end sports cars. It won't have 315 tread out back like a GTM, it will most likely not have any larger than 245.
Simply put, it's a whole different class of vehicle, and there might be a very good chance of the "average joe" making it handle wonderfully for what it is. That's exciting. But it's hard to get people exciting about the FEEL before they've even SEEN it.
TroyLynx
06-18-2011, 01:49 PM
So Baron are you trying to say, that a Viper V10 and G50 may be a tight squeeze?
thebeerbaron
06-18-2011, 02:43 PM
So Baron are you trying to say, that a Viper V10 and G50 may be a tight squeeze?
No. The V10 will fit, but you have to use the water pump from a 1955 Nash-Healey, otherwise the wp pulley will hit the frame.
TroyLynx
06-18-2011, 04:56 PM
Well dog gone it, I had that water pump and JB Weld it to a the PTO on my tractor. So now I have to either put my spare DT466 in the 818 or just maybe I should be happy with what FFR is doing with the 818.
Oppenheimer
06-19-2011, 11:27 PM
See that's the problem. People like US here on this forum find it exciting. Without something tangible to look at most people just say "hmm... seems like a neat idea" and don't really go beyond that initial thought.
It's hard to get across to people that the realistic budget for a roadster has always been around 25k to do it on the cheap. And performance figures alone usually don't win a crowd over. Usually it's the other way around. The LOOK of a car gets people interested, then the FIGURES get them excited. Then the FEEL of it is usually where they buy in for good...
I see your point. I guess I was thinking about a guy that might potentially build their own car. That guy (gal) would get excited about the concept, even if there isn't anything official to look at yet body wise.
The 'rest of the car world' like you mention, yes, there needs to be something to look at to get them excited. Its like those Philly HS students. Someone hears the story, inner city HS kids, no budget, win the Green Grand Prix. Its a 'Wow' event. But then show them a picture of the car, and suddenly its a WOW!!! event. THAT gets 100 mpg, and some kids in Philly built it?