ok,.. So I'm going to mention the pink elephant.

[Rome]

Ok,.. I've heard that this topic has been discussed and that it isn't well received. well, I'm new here and I haven't seen it.
Everyone I've ever spoken to has either complained or dismissed the FFR instruction manual.
I myself was incredibly frustrated with it.
my question is, and yes this is addressed to Dave Smith.
Why has FFR not come out with a clear and concise instruction manual?

For guys like me who are not mechanically knowledgeable, but can follow instructions.
In my opinion, it would be more valuable for FFR to come out with a new instruction manual which lists and names all the parts, then show diagrams of exactly how they are put together than it would be for them to work on the next generation Mark V.

I can tell you that as a buyer, I would have pulled the trigger a LOT sooner had the instruction manual been clearer.

I would also have finished the car a lot sooner which would help me promote to friends who are thinking about getting one of their own.

It's a win win situation for all involved.
Even now, as I am close to completion, It is difficult for me to move ahead because I have to spend time trying to figure out how this stuff is put together.

The thing is, putting my Cobra together isn't that difficult, but for the fact that I didn't know what the H@# a control A arm was from a banana bracket.

PLEASE.... can FFR come up with a complete and concise instruction manual?

(do as if you were explaining it to a five year old. yes some of us are that ignorant of mechanical lingo.)


There, I've said it.

[NHolds]

I'm sorry, but a 5 year old shouldn't be building a FFR...

I haven't seen the latest build manual, but I didn't have any problems with my MKI instruction manual. Thought it was quite clear actually.

[Ray]

We used the build manual a found it to be fine. Didn't have any trouble following it and it all worked out well.

Ray

[Hankl]

Rome,

The manual is a "General" instruction on the assembly process. This kit was originally targeted to the group that would be dissembling a Mustang, and with the understanding that what they, "Took apart, they could Reassemble". The kit has evolved over the years, where in some instances, the mechanical knowledge is thought to be "Intuitive", i.e., course bolts take course nuts, there is a difference between Metric and SAE, etc. FFR has even gone as far as to help establish a partnership with higher education to provide a "Build School". Then there is this place and the other site, which if you flip through, you will find that there is almost no question that can't be answered, and dissected in such a way, that anyone could under stand the in's and out's of the procedure. Also take into account that FFR has 5 current models(if you count the Spec Racer by its self), and the work that would be necessary to update each and every manual for each change during production would be staggering.

I think that if you would have asked anyone one on this or the other forum about assembly instructions, you would have gotten the 411 on what it's really like. 90% of us have no problem with the instruction manual, the Car is in the garage, and the instruction manual is in the bathroom, and it does not interfere with the process. I'm not trying to belittle you, but there have been guys that come onto the forum, tell us that they don't know which end of the screw driver to use, and all of us help them in small ways to complete their dream. If they can do it, so should you.

Hank :cool:

[Mustang Man]

It would appear that the manual in of itself, does not get many updates. The updates are in the form of add on instructions. When I helped a friend build a Mk 3.1 complete kit the manual was missing much of the instructions on the complete kit parts and you had to hunt down a bunch of supplemental instructions. I'm not talking about options like the oil cooler or something, but actual hard parts used to build the base vehicle.

With that said, let me tell you that doing a completely new manual from scratch is a MAJOR undertaking. I've spoken to Dave personally on this and there are many factors. For one, FFR would literally have to build a complete car from scratch to document and photo every step. How long did it take you guys to build your Roadsters? Exactly! Think of the labor of having one or two FFR employees building a Roadster, documenting the steps, photographing everything, etc. until the car is completed! Those of you that know me realize I did just that with my series of build articles, and not including the time the car was off for paint, it was over a year to build, document, photo, and write the build up. That's a LOT of labor to pay for a small company like FFR. In the long run it's probably cheaper to start this forum and post instructions, updates, etc. HERE than go through that major build hurdle for a new/updated manual (times FIVE products!).

Lastly, on the five-year-old comment, I couldn't agree more. When we write technical stories they are written at middle school level reading. They are proof read by non-technical people with the intent that if they understand it, so will our readers. You can't EXPECT everyone who picks up a wrench to know what BTDC means, or how to measure for current draw in a circuit. These are things that come with years of working on cars, and we all know there are builders like Kouros, Nice Guy Eddie, and others that did nothing more than a basic oil change before building their cars. They need the manual (and these forums) to show them the right way. How many of us have ran into an owner with a finished car that didn't know about these forums, or someone who posts a graduation thread with eight posts? Those builders solely relied on the manual and/or their previous automotive experience.

Mark

[jlfernan]

I don't know what manuals you guys have been looking at lately, but the manual I got with my MK IV came close to being "Insert tab A into slot B". I'm not that mechanically inclined, and had no problem for the most part. Before bashing the new manual, you can order a downloadable version. I gaurantee you'll be pleasantly surprised.


http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/9124/jorge.jpg (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/private.php?do=newpm&u=111)

[efnfast]

You don't need a manual for any of this.

When I started my build I'd never changed my own oil, used a wrench (literally), used a drill, or done anything remotely mechanically inclined. Heck, the only shop class I ever took was in 7th grade, and after 2weeks there the teacher promised to give me 95% if I went to the library and never returned for the semester.

But I put it together just fine - just take your time, study pictures, and you'll be fine. For example, in your A vs B bracket, just look at a picture of an assembled 3link and you'll figure it otu.

With 0 experience you can do everything pretty much except build your drivetrain (I mean, you could, but I want mine to be rock solid and not worry about itblowing up on me) and do your tuning.

Hell, I've built 2cars now and have NO clue how to set timing on my distributor, lol - for that stuff I bring it to the tuning shop (so atleast if they mess up I have somebody to sue)

[xlr8or]

Just think of the manual as a outline for the order of operations. Some section have the specifics filled in and others don't. Between the two forums it's not too often someone comes up with an assembly question that hasn't been asked.

[3kcarbon]

When you get it done you won't need a manual ...
I must admit there is a lot of gray area and absolute mistakes in even the much improved Mk 4 manual.
There is no doubt FFR tried to improve it just as there is still room for improvement. It can't be everything to everbody and what may be obvious to me may be a total mystery to someone else. I have a current oops in mind on the door latch placement and improper cutout for the striker on the door.

I THINK.... (ooo noooo)
FFR should issue a email update to all builders when a official fix or whoops is found or at least a heads up on a issue that seems to cause builders a problem. Not all are on the forum.

[Mesa Mike]

Some of us built early in the MKI days with no manuel. I can't address the new manual but I did have one for my build, still have it. I found the various build sites with photo's to be most helpful. Thanks again Sergio.

[LuckyWinner]

Im not much of a wrench head, but Ive had alot of time to read the manual over and over again......I think I could build it in my sleep. I dont think you are ever going to have a perfect manual, theres always going to be questions, but with the forum and the new Wiki-Build link I really dont know how anyone would have a problem that couldnt be solved with just 30 mins of computer time. Thanks again FFR for the new Wiki-Build section......keep it growing please.

[Rome]

uhmm... Well maybe it's just me then. (but then again everyone I've talked to has said the same). In any case, I'm glad you guys did/do not have the trouble I've had. I will check out the wiki-build section. can someone tell me about that? where can I find that link?
PS,. I hope you guys realize I wasn't trying to bash,... just expressing

[buildit]

uhmm... Well maybe it's just me then. (but then again everyone I've talked to has said the same). In any case, I'm glad you guys did/do not have the trouble I've had. I will check out the wiki-build section. can someone tell me about that? where can I find that link?
PS,. I hope you guys realize I wasn't trying to bash,... just expressing

Here you go.

http://mk4build.com/manual/doku.php

[Dave Smith]

I can address this for sure.

First of all, I respect your feedback and have gotten that before. I think there is merit to asking for a better manual. The kit plane company Vans has made their mark with perhaps the best technical instructions anywhere.

I will say that we have had the same percent complaints about the manual for 15 years and we have rev'd it literally hundreds of times in efforts to both make it better, and keep up with changes in our designs AND running gear, etc.

I will also say that while the manual CAN be better, we do offer a three-day build school that get 100% thumbs up from every graduate and is funded by us with parts and support.

Also FFR's are pretty well engineered to be built. There is some truth to the fact that people always complain during the difficult process of building a car (normal venting) but when the car is done and they drive it, forget the bumps along the way and realize how much better the car is than they thought it would be. I'm not in any way, discounting valid challenges and mistakes that we can make, but the truth is that building your own car is and maybe should not be for everyone. It is a special undertaking and I think we've made the process pretty good.

[PaulW]

".....the Car is in the garage, and the instruction manual is in the bathroom..."

Hank, have you been to my house? I spent many a quiet hour over the winter on the throne reading and re-reading the manual. I have found it adequate and it really gave me a good sense of the order of things and general positioning of parts etc. I have this forum and the FFCars to be invaluable for specific questions. We all have our areas of strength and weakness. For me I fear wiring. I have the Ron Francis FFR wiring manual and any other number of tech articles and I am going by the same philosophy I have used for the rest of the car. One step at a time. One wire at a time. Walk away when you are frustrated or move onto something else or when all else fails sit and look at it and drink a beer. Soon I find I am ready to go again and the picture of the completed car on the wall just speaks to me and I realize that no matter what I am living the dream!

Paul

[FFinisher]

I'm sorry, but a 5 year old shouldn't be building a FFR...

I haven't seen the latest build manual, but I didn't have any problems with my MKI instruction manual. Thought it was quite clear actually.

My sentiments exactly,

[Jack FFR1846]

My response to people who think the manual is lacking........after they've done some of the build.....

"you should build nothing"

I built my mk1 between 99 and 2000 when I had no internet access. I finally had access at the end of my build. The only thing I did not understand was the first generation hood hinge. The rest of the car was built step by step following the manual. I am no mechanical genius. I had changed the timing belt on a 91 Integra and that was the most in depth mechanical thing I ever did.

If you want to look at my 99 manual, you're welcome to look. It's been much improved and the forums spoon feed you every single thing that you don't want to look at and think about for more than 7 seconds.

Yes, the manual makes the entire process look daunting, if you're sitting on cape cod, reading it while your wife is in CVS buying something, following your FFR factory visit. But once into the process, it's one bolt, one pop rivet, one silicone bead and soon enough, you literally look at the car and say "I'm done". That was exactly my experience.

I built a Little Tykes electric kids car while building the FFR. The FFR manual was miles ahead of Little Tyke!

[3kcarbon]

Don't we all just want to shake a box of parts and pour out a car?

[efnfast]

Don't we all just want to shake a box of parts and pour out a car?

Not I - I like thinking about how to overcome challenges in the build :) (other than bodywork....boooooooo to bodywork). Having a completed car is boring. Building a car is fun

[seagull81]

Are these cars ever done? Not mine. I still have a list of things to change.

[3kcarbon]

Not I - I like thinking about how to overcome challenges in the build :) (other than bodywork....boooooooo to bodywork). Having a completed car is boring. Building a car is fun

If you really like a challege you would love bodywork... ahh the sweet smell of polyester dust that gets everywhere on everything...

Building a car is fun until you find glaring boo boo's that should have been corrected. At that point yes you can get satisfaction from solving the problem that you paid to be correct to start with. Thats isn't a great feeling. Thats when you think you might be better off to really build a car from nothing. How many of us have that much time?

[Steak]

I found the build manual very adequate. My main issues were when an automotive term was used that I was not familiar with. I found that I learned more about the car doing some research along the way to better understand what and why I was doing whatever it was I was doing. With a "perfect" you might get the car built faster or with less stress; however, you may be sure that you will know less about your final product.

[Dave Smith]

I think its important to respect everyone's approach to the challenge. I am nevr happy with any of our cars as there is always something that can be done better. I act every day like there is a Factory Five across the street who will be putting us out of business if we don't get better every single day. I think some people imagine its fun to work at FFR, and Im sure there are days making cars is better than some jobs, BUT I must drive the guys at FFR crazy, pushing harder all the time, finishing one challenge, only to find two new ones on the plate.

I respect ROME's question and welcome his input on this forum. Community means alot here and the fact that building the cars is easier than it used to be is a reflection of that community. I think its unreasonable to imagine that things will ever be perfect a, b, c install... but the new 818 MUST be a log-scale easier to build if we are going to export to places where english tech is difficult. Thanks for the comments.

[Rome]

I think its important to respect everyone's approach to the challenge. I am nevr happy with any of our cars as there is always something that can be done better. I act every day like there is a Factory Five across the street who will be putting us out of business if we don't get better every single day. I think some people imagine its fun to work at FFR, and Im sure there are days making cars is better than some jobs, BUT I must drive the guys at FFR crazy, pushing harder all the time, finishing one challenge, only to find two new ones on the plate.

I respect ROME's question and welcome his input on this forum. Community means alot here and the fact that building the cars is easier than it used to be is a reflection of that community. I think its unreasonable to imagine that things will ever be perfect a, b, c install... but the new 818 MUST be a log-scale easier to build if we are going to export to places where english tech is difficult. Thanks for the comments.

Thank you for your comment. I appreciate that you did not take offense at my comment. It was said with the best intentions. I hope you will give it serious consideration for those of us who aren't so mechanically knowledgeable.
needless to say, I LOVE your product.

[Rome]

Here you go.

http://mk4build.com/manual/doku.php

Thank you,.. I've used that. It's been a life saver. Quick little story, not to belabor the point or to argue,.. just as a point of conversation. When I first started my build I spent a couple of weeks trying to complete step one. I was very frustrated. I followed the instructions but I wasn't sure or confident about what I did. Someone suggested this manual to me, and once I got it I was able to move much quicker and get a lot done in much less time. I think that's where my real frustration started with the FFR IM.

oh well,.. you guys are in fact a great resource for specific questions. and Dave is right. Now that I am driving my car, the bumps don't seem as bad as they did.

[Mesa Mike]

Rome.....I for one didn't take your post as "complaining" and it seems Dave Smith didn't either. This websit and the old ones were responsible for answering alot of my questions when building. When I was building (still am as said above, "it's never really done"), I lived in the SFO bay area. It is still a great group of guys that can help someone easily build out of a corner. Don't be shy about asking, "where does this ting-a-magiggy" go. You'll get quick and accurate answers. Enjoy your build and driving you FFR.

[Rome]

Rome.....I for one didn't take your post as "complaining" and it seems Dave Smith didn't either. This websit and the old ones were responsible for answering alot of my questions when building. When I was building (still am as said above, "it's never really done"), I lived in the SFO bay area. It is still a great group of guys that can help someone easily build out of a corner. Don't be shy about asking, "where does this ting-a-magiggy" go. You'll get quick and accurate answers. Enjoy your build and driving you FFR.


Thanks Mesa. This community has been nothing short of amazing. Even now I am getting some great help and answers to my sometimes basic questions on this very forum.
There is a local Cobra group in my area, CACC, and they have been unbelievable towards me.
Not only did they invite me to their weekly Sunday get together, help me with questions and suggestions, but one member, Craig S. even came to my house one day to help out. How cool is that?

[MPTech]

Rome, is there a particular area you're talking about?
I read the mk3 and 3.1 manuals, and started my mk4 in April. I haven't had any real issues with the manual yet, the only challenges I've had are decisions or mods I've added to the build. And even those aren't bad with all of the help from the forums.

just wondering what you think needs improvement (have you seen the mk4 manual, it is better, in my opinion)

[mikiec]

After reading this I checked my old manual. I built my car in late 2000. I have check marks on every paragraph I used for my build. Did not find the old Mike Senior's forum until I was finished.

read it, then use it. It works.

Mike

[Someday I Suppose]

Maybe its just semantics, but it really shouldn't be called a manual, it should be called an assembly guide. I don't know that given the various versions of the kit, and the unlimited options with brake packages, wheels, power steering vs. manual, power brakes, SAI kits, hinge options, etc. that you could have a true step by step manual.

On the MKIII book, I think there were some places it could have been more detailed, over over-all used it as a guide and went back to it a number of times as well as used the online resources.

At the end of the day, that you are building a car can not be forgotten. There are going to be challanges, there are going to be frustrations, and you need to approach it as that being part of what makes the finished product more rewarding. I'm so close to being on the road now, and will be glad to be done, but I also know I am going to miss building a great deal...

At least until I convince the wife that I should build something else....

[AC Bill]

I always referred to it as a simple "guide book" rather than an actual manual.:)

I'm surprised at the number of people who jumped in to defend the build manual.:confused: For years (on the other site at least), it has frequently been poked fun at for it's lack of good, detailed, information, and pictures. Perhaps it's because you brought up the pink elephant on this particular site?
I found that some sections of it were very well written, with good step by step details and precise instructions, where other areas were sadly lacking. I would think that it was compiled by more than one person because of these vast differences in writings.

I haven't seen the MKIV manual, so in fairness there well may have been improvements to those same areas, where the 3.1 manual that were so poorly written. Then there is the fact that our cars are built different in so many ways from one another, would hinder writing a manual that would satisfy everyone.

As others mentioned, you really need to fall back on the build forums (and build sites), when you come to a logger head during the build. In some cases there is a way of doing something, or modifications that you will want to add as you go, that you will only find out about through the forums.

[Dave Smith]

I will brag here a bit... There is NO OTHER company that has the three-dimensionality of build resources that we do, and that has been done by design. The build school is unprecedented and requires investment from us, the build manual and engineering into the car is considerable, many folks don't love and appreciate their FFR's as much until they build some other replica in our price point, and without the community, the story would not be complete... But still while we did not create the community, and unlike Gore, I did not invent the internet, it would be wrong to think that FFR's culture inside the walls doesnt affect the culture outside the walls in the community. Anyone who has visited, been to events here, met our crew at shows, etc, can testify that the FFR culture of service, motorheads, value, peformance and always fellowship... these things define how we start and end each day and what we do every minute in between. There is my sales pitch! Still the Mk4 manual can be made better, but that will always be a moving target and it'll never be a single job in a vacuum.. Heck, even this forum has taken resources and was launched to ensure a long-term AFFORDABLE way for the community to gather as the other forum was bought by a big forum management company. I guess you can see the manual is part of a bigger picture that makes building an ffr the best experience in the industry! Cue the music, tears of pride welling up in Dave's eyes...

[Gumball]

Dave - I'll jump in here with a question for Bill S. Will the slabside 289 version Roadster's build manual be substantially from the current Mk IV version? :rolleyes:

[Jeff Collins]

Just as a comparison, I have a 66 Batmobile. The build manual for it is 4 pages, hand written. One example; here is what your door frame should look like, build it. Mount it to your door skin, cut the door opening. If your door works the first time you are lucky. I think FFR is light years ahead of the industry, you can tell the manual was written by folks very familiar with the build process. Those of us not as in the know can always use more steps and pictures, and every evolution of the build manual has gotten better. It is not a cookbook, but it is as good as I have seen.

[The Stig]

Rome,

You did the right thing to log into the forum and ask your question. However, it may have been the wrong question. The Forum serves as your single greatest resource for information. When you get to a point that has you blocked, ask your question right here. You will definitely get your answers. There are also people who will be happy to come by your place and lend a hand, (if hey live close by).

These are some of the best people that I've run across in quite some time.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you have MUCH more help available to you than you probably realize. As Jeff Collins mentioned, The build manuals are really extremely well done. Especially if you can compare it to just about ANY other KIT company's manual. Use the manual as a Guide, and then if necessary, use the forum for the details. Do a quick search using a couple of Key words, Like "Control Arms" or "Control A", and select which forum you want to search through, such as "Roadsters". If you don't see anything that sounds like what you're looking for, post your questions.

But more than that, don't feel ashamed to ask what-ever question you might have. I gets repeated over and over her, but there really aren't any dumb questions.

The cool thing about the FFR forums, is that the people associated with them, truly want to help you be successful with your build. (Because we love to see pictures of finished cars!)

Sounds like you're getting close. Good Luck!

[Rome]

Rome,

You did the right thing to log into the forum and ask your question. However, it may have been the wrong question. The Forum serves as your single greatest resource for information. When you get to a point that has you blocked, ask your question right here. You will definitely get your answers. There are also people who will be happy to come by your place and lend a hand, (if hey live close by).

These are some of the best people that I've run across in quite some time.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you have MUCH more help available to you than you probably realize. As Jeff Collins mentioned, The build manuals are really extremely well done. Especially if you can compare it to just about ANY other KIT company's manual. Use the manual as a Guide, and then if necessary, use the forum for the details. Do a quick search using a couple of Key words, Like "Control Arms" or "Control A", and select which forum you want to search through, such as "Roadsters". If you don't see anything that sounds like what you're looking for, post your questions.

But more than that, don't feel ashamed to ask what-ever question you might have. I gets repeated over and over her, but there really aren't any dumb questions.

The cool thing about the FFR forums, is that the people associated with them, truly want to help you be successful with your build. (Because we love to see pictures of finished cars!)

Sounds like you're getting close. Good Luck!

Thank you Stig,.. I definitely agree that that the culture here couldn't be more cool.
As ive said, I've had CACC member Craig, stop by my house already. I was blown away by his generosity.

I will take you up on that offer and continue to ask "dumb" questions.
I'm close. Very close.
My car is registered and I drive it almost every day.
Thank you everyone for your support and help.