Engine Failure? Need your advices

[myrtille2004]

I tried to start my engine today, and got a surprise. It was difficult to start-up (like my starter was jamming up). I finally was able to start it, and a cloud of smoke came out of the exhaust. I run it in the 4000RPM, but still was smoking a lot. The idle was not stable at all, and the engine died. I tried it a second time, was able to start it, but again a cloud of smoke. I noticed in my garage and driveway a flow of liquid coming out of my exhaust... like a river. I look at this dark brown and yellow substance, and looks like coolant. Am I dreaming of the engine block is cracked? I cannot see how a gasket leak can let out so much coolant for 1-2min running. If you have any idea of what it can be, let me know. I think I will need to pull out the engine and tear it down, is this my next step?

My engine is a 302 old iron block machined to 347, but everything else is brand new including the dressing (new pistons, rods, camshaft, heads.) I'm guessing that is must be the block, the ONLY thing I re-used from an old Mustang.

I have attached pictures to comment.

[GoDadGo]

I've got four questions for you that may or may not help:

1. Did you have the block Magnifluxed to check for cracks?
2. Did you use steel shim head gaskets or the composite style type?
3. How long did you attempt to run in the engine?
4. Did the oil in the block discolor and/or turn milky?

When I put my first engine together (Age 16) I had a head gasket leak from hell that caused water to go into the exhaust and engine block.
After changing the gaskets on the top of the engine several times, I went to the Fel-Pro Perma-Torque style gasket and on the fourth try and all was right with the world.
Sorry that I'm a wrench swinging banker instead of a professional mechanic, but it may not be as bad as you think.

Good Luck & Keep Us Posted!

[ryanmac]

A bad head gasket can also do this...continuous clouds and semi-sweet smell of coolant coming from exhaust.

Do not run motor anymore as coolant in oil will wipe out main bearings in minutes! Check for presence of coolant in oil pan.

How long ago was the engine rebuild interms of hours, miles, or starts to date? Did the machine shop magnaflux (crack detection) the block? Did they final assemble the block / install the heads?

[myrtille2004]

For you questions:
1. I think it was Magnifluxed...
2. I used the Fel-Pro Z10111 (steel laminate cores)
3. I ran the engine this weekend for around 30-45 minutes without issue. I was monitoring the temp (I have Fitech handheld), and it was always under 180F. Then, I ran it today for 1-2 min with a cloud of smoke and coolant (looks black) coming out of the exhaust... The engine was very difficult to crank (needed to turn the starter a couple of times).
4. I will check tomorrow...

[Toy4me]

Put a pressure check on the cooling system. This will tell you right away if you have any leaks in the system. I have seen that much fluid from condensation buildup in the pipes and you are just washing the soot out of the pipes. Also could be a very rich startup and the engine is flooding and washing out the pipes. Before you start tearing things apart do some simple checks first. If it was running fine on shut down its unlikely you blew a head gasket sitting in the garage.

[2bking]

I tried to start my engine today, and got a surprise. It was difficult to start-up (like my starter was jamming up). I finally was able to start it, and a cloud of smoke came out of the exhaust. I run it in the 4000RPM, but still was smoking a lot. The idle was not stable at all, and the engine died.
Sounds like it may have dropped a valve or had a hydraulic lock (from a coolant leak) and cracked the cylinder wall or blew the head gasket. I would pull the spark plugs. If either of those happened, it will be obvious as to which cylinder has the problem.

[Railroad]

Small block ford intake gaskets can leak and get into the adjacent intake runner.
If you want to taste the liquid out of the exh and it is sweet, probably antifreeze.
Hard cranking could be liquid on top of a piston. You can drain the anitfreeze and see if it exhibits the same issues, before a partial tear down. You can also pull the plugs and see what is going on in each cyl. Compression check is the easiest to do, in diagnosis.
Good luck,

[BEAR-AvHistory]

He has water coming out the exhaust pipe. Don't think there is any avoiding pulling the heads to check for a blown gasket but to also check if, since he cranked & ran it any cylinder damage.

Oil pan drain plug should also be checked for coolent incase any rings let go.

[myrtille2004]

More news. I first checked my intake manifold bolts as recommended, and surprise, I found 2 of them loose (one opposite of each other, driver side). I then removed all spark plugs (see pictures) and found a couple of them wet... This explain probably that the manifold intake gasket failed first, then the head gaskets after. Why? I checked compression of my 8 cylinders: #1-4-7-8 are between 130-150psi and #2-3-5-6 are at 0psi. That's why I think my head gaskets, both sides, are broken. What do you think? Another surprise, the plug #7 tip was fully bended (see picture), I cannot explain it since when I installed all of my plugs they were in specifications. Is it possible it overheated? What can cause such a bend?

This is probably what happened for the coolant leakage:
1- Manifold intake gasket broke and a couple of cylinders fill-up after I shut down my engine this weekend
2- I tried to start the engine a couple of time Monday, like the engine was lock
3- The engine finally started and a cloud of smoke with coolant came out of the exhaust
4- Because of the cylinder locks, it probably broke head gaskets also
.... any other suggestions? Or my block is crack?

Thanks for your appreciated support!

6018660187

[Boydster]

Time to tear it down.

[Toy4me]

Tear it down and rebuild better. Sorry to hear this.

[myrtille2004]

Tear it down will be....I will keep you postes of my findings.

[mike forte]

Hi myrtille,
Not so fast about teardown. Change the intake gaskets 1st. I would then check the valve adjustment or preload.
Call me, I've seen issues like yours be an easy fix...


Mike Forte
Forte's Parts Connection
40 Pearl Street
Framingham, Mass. 01702
mikeforte302@gmail.com
508 875 0016
www.fortesparts.com
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/...?v=info&ref=ts
The Early Ford & FE Tremec were also originals from Mike. The Mustang firewall adjustable quadrant kit also is an original from Mike. His latest developments are external slave clutch release conversions & cable release conversions too.
Tremec Elite Distributor for: T-5, T-56, T-56 Magnum & TKO-500 & TKO-600
TKO-500 & TKO-600 Midshifter, Front shifter, offset Corvette shifter and more...
A REAL SPEED SHOP with parts, price & knowledge....
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[myrtille2004]

Hi myrtille,
Not so fast about teardown. Change the intake gaskets 1st. I would then check the valve adjustment or preload.
Call me, I've seen issues like yours be an easy fix...


Mike Forte
Forte's Parts Connection
40 Pearl Street
Framingham, Mass. 01702
mikeforte302@gmail.com
508 875 0016
www.fortesparts.com
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/...?v=info&ref=ts
The Early Ford & FE Tremec were also originals from Mike. The Mustang firewall adjustable quadrant kit also is an original from Mike. His latest developments are external slave clutch release conversions & cable release conversions too.
Tremec Elite Distributor for: T-5, T-56, T-56 Magnum & TKO-500 & TKO-600
TKO-500 & TKO-600 Midshifter, Front shifter, offset Corvette shifter and more...
A REAL SPEED SHOP with parts, price & knowledge....
Est: 1981 selling & building performance parts to build your dream car...
FORD RACING & QUICKTIME DISTRIBUTOR. NEW 5 LUG AXLES & BRAKE KITS & NEW 8.8\" REAREND IN BOTH IRS & FOX AXLE.

Will start with intake gasket. Any explanation whey half of my cylinders don't have any compression, is it because of intake gasket blow out or it may be head gaskets also?

[AC Bill]

Intake gaskets won't have any affect on compression. Valves, piston rings, or a really bad head gasket would.

[Toysrus]

Almost hate to ask. What process did you use to check compression? ? Also pop the valve covers and check your head bolts . I'm guessing that they were not torqued properly and vibration plus heat cycling engine loosened them up. You didn't notice any odd behavior prior to this? It's harder to get proper loaded torque with metal head gaskets that's why everyone swears by felpro.

Also metal gaskets are very unforgiving to uneven surfaces so if you didn't deck the heads and block they won't seal. If retorquing heads doesn't solve it then change head gaskets and while you're in there staight edge all the surfaces to check for warping or divots.

Once you retorq the current setup pressure test your radiator to see if it holds pressure over time. And compression test cylinders again. If radiator holds but cylinders don't you may have dropped a ring or worse. If everything checks out flush and add fluids and monitor your oil pressure if oil pressure isn't where it should be then you wore your bearings out.

[Toysrus]

Also retorq your heads again after a few heat cycles.

[NAZ]

At minimum, pull the head on the bank with zero compression. As already mentioned, an intake gasket failure will have no effect on compression. There are a variety of causes for zero pressure on a single cylinder but to have an entire bank suddenly at zero is most likely caused by a leaky head gasket. Even then, my experience has shown that a bad head gasket does not always cause the whole bank of cylinders to show zero compression. It's not likely that multiple valves on only one bank would be failing to close on a conventional push rod engine. Also not likely that you have four pistons with holes on one bank. And both of these possible (but not likely) causes of zero compression wouldn't cause coolant to enter the cylinders. As for your spark plug with the bent ground electrode -- this almost certainly was caused by impact with something. This requires either a borescope inspection or pull the head to inspect the cylinder for damage. To me, this is the priority problem to assess as impact will result in costly damage. I've seen plugs melt from the heat (like melting metal with a torch) but never even heard of one bending from heat. Unless you mistakenly installed a longer plug in one hole, you may see something ugly in this cylinder.

[Jeff Kleiner]

...There are a variety of causes for zero pressure on a single cylinder but to have an entire bank suddenly at zero is most likely caused by a leaky head gasket...

It's not an entire bank; he has 2 cylinders @ zero on both banks (the center 2 on each side).

Jeff

[Toysrus]

Could check autoparts stores to see if any around him will rent a inspection scope.

[NAZ]

Thanks for correcting me Jeff, I somehow missed that important fact. When troubleshooting we still have to think about what causes two distinct issues together -- coolant entering the cylinders and zero cranking pressure. If coolant is present in the four bad cylinders then I'm still looking to the head gaskets as the cause. I'd pull the heads to inspect. Any repair involving a coolant leak in the cylinders will require pulling the heads. When I was a Ford mechanic wrenching at a dealership I pulled tons of V-8 heads -- it's really not that big of deal and it gives access to all the areas that could be causing the two problems. Of course it could be something more than a head gasket not sealing but in my experience the gasket is the prime suspect. I have seen cracked decks and once even pulled a head that some guy staked the valve seats in with a center punch which caused hairline cracks through the combustion chamber roof and into the water jacket. None of this would have been discovered without pulling the heads. And the bent electrode on the plug is still my biggest concern until something more catastrophic is discovered.

[myrtille2004]

Thanks for correcting me Jeff, I somehow missed that important fact. When troubleshooting we still have to think about what causes two distinct issues together -- coolant entering the cylinders and zero cranking pressure. If coolant is present in the four bad cylinders then I'm still looking to the head gaskets as the cause. I'd pull the heads to inspect. Any repair involving a coolant leak in the cylinders will require pulling the heads. When I was a Ford mechanic wrenching at a dealership I pulled tons of V-8 heads -- it's really not that big of deal and it gives access to all the areas that could be causing the two problems. Of course it could be something more than a head gasket not sealing but in my experience the gasket is the prime suspect. I have seen cracked decks and once even pulled a head that some guy staked the valve seats in with a center punch which caused hairline cracks through the combustion chamber roof and into the water jacket. None of this would have been discovered without pulling the heads. And the bent electrode on the plug is still my biggest concern until something more catastrophic is discovered.

I will keep you posted, it's now clear I will pull the intake + heads. Will take me some time...

[myrtille2004]

I tear down the intake and the heads, and found that the head gaskets are badly failed. I think I did not torque properly the heads, or did not re-torque them after a couple of runs. The head torque was low... Anyway, the cylinders and the heads looks good, no damage. I will need to find out the proper way to install them with the proper gaskets.


6029760298

[ryanmac]

Head gasket bolt torque spec is 70 ft-lbs, and should be done in three steps and in the correct pattern.

SBF-Head-Torque-Sequence (http://www.gtsparkplugs.com/SBF-Head-Torque-Sequence.html)


I also recommend the Felpro 9333pt1 for 302 heads. Like GoDadGo said earlier, Felpro Perma Torque gaskets are great. Many guys drag racing foxbodies with built engines (up to 20 lbs boost) run these with no issues...(still have to torque them correctly though).


Here's a good how-to video: http://youtu.be/eRxW9Td37vI (http://youtu.be/eRxW9Td37vI)

[CraigS]

Wow, you have head studs. Way better than bolts.

[Boydster]

ARP instructions (http://arpinstructions.com/instructions/154-4002.pdf) for torquing heads on a SBF with their studs.

[myrtille2004]

ARP instructions (http://arpinstructions.com/instructions/154-4002.pdf) for torquing heads on a SBF with their studs.

I will follow the sequence and also recheck my bolts after the engine ran a couple of times, they may loose back a bit.

[rich grsc]

I will follow the sequence and also recheck my bolts after the engine ran a couple of times, they may loose back a bit.
Never in my life have I ever had to re-torque a set of head bolts. They don't loosen up. Torque them correctly the first time and your done. Ever taken a new car back to the dealer to get the heads re-torqued?

[Toysrus]

Never in my life have I ever had to re-torque a set of head bolts. They don't loosen up. Torque them correctly the first time and your done. Ever taken a new car back to the dealer to get the heads re-torqued?

ARP studs aren't torque to yield.

[Ram4x4sprt]

Be sure to use a heavy straight edge and make sure block deck and heads are perfectly flat.

[rmiller64]

Check that the head studs are not to long and allowing the nuts to bottom out on the studs before head is torqued