Wow!! FF really dropped the QC Ball here!

[Blwalker105]

OK, so I get it that FF is a quasi-cottage-industry but the interface of the new front end's upper front door, front fender and windshield area is truly a nightmare. Did they really pay someone to create these molds!?! I have spent the better part of the last 5 weeks trying to get these ridiculous parts to fit with the hope of it looking even semi-professional when finished. I thought I had seen the worst with having to cut a giant pie-shaped slice out of the hood to address one fender being 1/2" shorter than the other,
http://i.imgur.com/6UtLBuT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3YBcXCD.jpg

but after fitting both doors, there are HUGE triangular-shaped gaps at the aforementioned interface areas. WTF?!? Did the person making the front fender molds even live in the same zip code as the door and hard top fabricators?
Enough ranting. In an effort to eventually have a finished car, I have come up with a workable solution to these troublesome areas. It may look a little daunting for those uninitiated with fiberglass techniques, but it is more a matter of proper prep-work and materials than anything else. First, an overview: the factory hardtop's front lower A-pillar areas are cut very flat (and poorly) and sit directly above compound-curving upper front door areas and front fenders whose rear edges don't extend far enough rearward. The result is this:
http://i.imgur.com/ZCBql9b.jpg

a monstrous void that can only be minimized by painting everything black, standing back 20 feet at dawn or dusk, squinting and hoping everyone pays more attention to your smokey burnouts than your build quality. Gross!!!

I wanted something like this, but was turned off as it looked too Viper-esque
http://i.imgur.com/UgktYUF.jpg

so I decided to strike out on my own and get crazy with it:
http://i.imgur.com/bXUF4kL.jpg

[Blwalker105]

I decided to integrate the interface into the A-Pillar, with the backup plan to cut everything off, and glass the new interface onto the rear of the front fenders (Viperesque) if I thought that would look better.

Let me know your thoughts on the two ideas.

http://i.imgur.com/s1LuA9q.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vqaFOEf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HCc4xSE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Qo0EqK7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FzNfqDd.jpg

All the above pics are with the modification attached to the A-Pillar...I can always cut it off anywhere and glass it onto the rear of the front fender with a single cut line delineating a new transition between the hardtop and the lower areas in question.

[Blwalker105]

sorry for my huge close-ups. I'm still getting the hang of posting pictures and will strive to get some distance perspective shots tomorrow.

[flynntuna]

If you could draw a line with a sharpie to show us were the seam between the fender a pillar and hood will be before you take the distant pictures will give us a better idea of how it'll look.
in the first pic, the viper-esque looking one the extention appears flush with the fender, while in the last pic it looks like the extention kicks out at the end of the fender. Am I seeing that right?

It's a shame that paintless panels feature didn't pan out.

[carrera1984]

Wow, that' really bad. Looks like your final products going to look great though. I did some fiberglass work today too. Just made a simple sub box, but worked out good... better than I thought. I feel more confident as I haven't glassed anything in 8 years or so. If I have the same QC on my kit as you, I'm going to be pretty upset. Can't blame you for venting a little. I have the same red new body style... we'll see!

[6t8dart]

Way worse than I realized, I had entetained the thought of getting one of these. They need to fix these issues asap!

[Frank818]

On my passenger side I have a small triangle gap, so small only a good eye knowing about the 818 would notice and I have some play still to make it even smaller. On the driver side I have none at all, the panels overlap perfectly. There are certainly a lot of différences between frames and body panels, I guess I was lucky for #181 but then I had to cut a lot on the rear engine cover around the roll bar whereas only a few people I've seen needed to do it and some even not at all. I believe yes there could be improvements in the methodology used to mold the panels and weld the frame.

[Blwalker105]

Flynntuna, good eye! The Viperesque pic was just a 2D wish in a 3D space and include a door that had to open without interference. It does kick out a bit but not past the A-pillar at any point. It's actually a nice arc from most any angle; the white color makes it look really obtrusive but it's more subtle in person. I'm going to thin out the forward-most region to where it will almost disappear into the fender, then glass over the vinyl-ester filler. Hopefully, I can find some red lacquer to match the gelcoat for some better perspective.

[Tony Zullo]

Hi guys Tony@FFR

Just wanted to touch base on this issue..... The car has been set up so that the hard top can be removed and the roadster windshield can be installed. That's why the gap between the door and the fender exists. There are lots of variations to close the gap from pontoon/rear quarter movement and gaping of the doors and fender alignment. I'm going to post a couple pictures of our SEMA car and you can see that there is a gap there, and if the factory Subaru side mirror gets used it will cover that spot... Hope this helps Guys!

If you guys have problems please give us a call here and hopefully we can fix the problem before it gets out of hand. It's great to see you guys creative with your builds !!

Thanks !!! Tony Z

6015860159

[Frank818]

Tnx Tony for the explanation, makes more sense.

I definately don't have that gap on #181. But then the hardtop didn't exist yet.

Is it the picture or you trimmed downwards the top front portion of the door to better follow the lines?

[Tony Zullo]

Hi Frank

The picture you see of the black car door is a door that came right out of the mold untrimmed...

that's as long as the mold is.. Thanks again!!

[ben1272]

Here are some pictures of where my panels have come together. (kit #352). It is not as small of a gap as I would like, but it is not the worst either. I did pass through a couple of attempts at fitment that resulted in much worse gaps, but with a bit of push here pull there etc, it can be brought together pretty close.

Important to check the symmetry of the trimming on the windshield frame. Mine was not the same on both side, and could be best measured by taking measurements from the top of the side sills and also measuring from the top edge of the frame to the cut/trimmed edge. Clamp a staight edge along the top of the windshield so you have a comparable place to measure from on both sides of the car, and measure from the straightedge to the bottom of the A-pillar. Also make sure you have both sides bolted to the frame comparably, and the sweep back angle of the windshield set up properly per instruction (measurement to roll bar I think).

I have not yet looked to see the best place to add some fiberglass to close it further, but the two approaches you are considering dont look half bad. I would like to see some pictures of the options from further away. Hard to see what these extensions do to the lines of the car when viewed so close up! Thanks for posting your approach!

-Ben

[Frank818]

Ha, I see some differences here. My fenders are fitted a lot higher than yours, cuz the hood asked me to do it that way and also cuz I need to increase as much as I can the hood-windshield gap to fit my wiper arm.

Your fenders follow perfectly the lines of the A-pillar. Mines are out of whack on that line, so will probably be the hood.

Also my driver's door is 3/16" longer at the top than my passenger's. Here's how it turns out:

6017860179

[ben1272]

I have trimmed some material off my frame and fenders, always only a little at a time. I figure I can always put some material on if needed to make things tighter. Keeping all of the mounting brackets loose enough to adjust the parts is helpful. As others have said, start with securing all of the non-negotiable locations (like fender to side sail, fenders to nose insert, side sails to chassis (check how on-center your hubs are within wheel arches), and then play with what you have left. Mostly this seems to be the up/down and forward/back and angle of the windshield frame (check dimensions in manual), and how much spacer thickness you have on top fender screw points.

Good luck!

[flynntuna]

The angle of the windshield is critical only if you're using the soft top.

[ben1272]

True about the soft top. Even if you dont want to use the factory soft top it seemed to me a good idea to make my car compatible with it so in the future another owner would have the option of adding.....future owner could be me! Seemed worth considering at least.

[Blwalker105]

Thanks all!

I have pretty much followed the factory manual in setting the side sails, then the front fenders, then the nose, the hood, etc.. My car is perfectly level on a trolley (without wheels) and at least the center of the hubs indicate the wheels will be centered in their openings. Also, every part of the underside of the body from front to rear is within about 1/8" of being the same distance above the floor. My A-pillars are as far forward and down as possible as the door openings will allow (almost to their forward stops). I am still in the process of thinning and refining my mods so hopefully I can post some updated pics tomorrow.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Blwalker,
I was looking at your large door gaps. I brought the door out until I had a straight edge on the fender and the door. I have hardly trimmed any of the fiber glass yet. I was going to go back and do that after it was running. (That was 300 autocross runs ago and 2000 hot track miles ago)

My door gap looks much smaller than yours.

60207 60208

Bob

[redfogo]

Blwalker105 I think I know what the problem is with the tops and I think I have the same problem. Seems FFR cut the tops wrong. I have one shorter(bad side) and one longer edge(Show car side). Seems like somone just cut the tops uneven or the molding has an issue. MY drivers I can actually get a nice gap if i mess around long enough. My passenger side forget it the top was cut way to high so now I just have a large hole no matter what I do. I would have to move the fenders so far back to close it wheel wheels woudl be so bad lol.

Driver "good" Possible to adjust correct side
6020960210 60211

Passengers side has a far larger gap and you can tell because you can see far more of the metal for the support bar on this side then the other. The easiest way to spot this is the curving point in the support arm has a notch in it. On the drivers side the notch is almost covered by fiber glass. The passenger side forget it you can see its far past the notch in the images below.
60212

Note: I'm still getting my body all set up but I am clearly going to need to solve this issue as well some how.

[07FIREBLADE]

I have the same problem with the passenger side. It doesn't matter. I compared my car with they're show car at the HBO show last April and they had the same problem. I talked to Tony who was there and he said all the tops come like this.

[Frank818]

My A-pillars are as far forward and down as possible as the door openings will allow (almost to their forward stops).

Mines are the exact opposite, as far backwards and up as possible.


6020960210 60211

60212


Those gaps are HUGE. Take a look at my pix above (and I was able to reduce even more the passenger's side), are you sure you can't push back any more the fenders? Mines are further back and need to in order to align properly with the side sails, unless your side sails are further fwd than mines.

[Blwalker105]

Well, at least I'm not alone in this sad trek. As for Tony's saying saying "they all come like this", that's a poor excuse for FF not taking the time to design it right in the first place. I'm also not for a minute buying the idea that many people going to the expense and effort to fit the hardtop, either for the purchased coupe or as a retrofit for a convertable are a ever going to go through the hassle of removing it. That would mean they designed a product for maybe 20%, at best, of their intended market. Nope, bad execution, pure and simple.

[GoDadGo]

My son has been bugging me ever since we saw the 818 in Panama City Beach Florida that he wants to build an 818 after our MK-4 is done.
That won't be happening after seeing this panel fit thread.
Thanks for saving me a lot of time and money.
Looks like the MK-4 is their best product.

[brian b 36]

IT LOOKS LIKE YOUR NOSE IS TO FAR FORWARD MINE DOES NOT HAVE THAT PROBLUM AT ALLhttp://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55667&d=1467492286 IF YOU HAD YOUR WINDSHIELD IN YOUR HOOD SHOULD LAY ON IT YOURS IS ABOUT 2 TO 3 INS FORWARD

[redfogo]

Mines are the exact opposite, as far backwards and up as possible.



Those gaps are HUGE. Take a look at my pix above (and I was able to reduce even more the passenger's side), are you sure you can't push back any more the fenders? Mines are further back and need to in order to align properly with the side sails, unless your side sails are further fwd than mines.

I do agree I know I can work a small bit more out but by no means will it be good enough. I would be okay with moving my side skirts back to maybe help but honestly the top fits perfect with the door jams and the upper door jam/ side skirt.

Also I'm not sure how everyone else is aligning but I'm aligning the body with the lower front extension arm mounts installed. I can't push the fenders back any further unless I trim the arms. So even if I adjust the skirts I need to trim the arms to even let me stretch the fenders back enough.

[Mechie3]

The roadster has a better fit because of the one piece body. Eliminate the junctions and you eliminate mismatch.

The real issue (IMO) stems from the basic design of that area. Generally, in any type of engineering product design, you try and minimize the number of pieces that come together at a single junction. The reason is because it works in CAD (everything works in CAD), but once you add in real life manufacturing tolerances problems start to arise. This is true for anything. Even taking two plates and putting standoffs in between. Each standoff is going to be +/- .005". If the plates are effectively perfectly rigid relative to the loads put on it then some standoffs will be tight and some will shuttle around. A good designer will minimize the number of standoffs to minimize mismatch.

The first 818 nose had problems because you had a hood, fender, bumper, headlight (and to some extend a headlight bucket) all trying to meet at the same point. If any one piece was smaller or larger than intended, it affected the fit of four other parts. The new front end has only three pieces that meet (fender, hood, insert) and much larger interfaces. The headlight itself now only touches one piece (fender). That was a very good decision for FFR and while parts overall still have issues (such as fender being too long), they fit together better.

The design of the door/windshield(A pillar)/fender/hood junction is just...odd. OEM's design thing a certain way and often that way (with most consumer cars) is to meet certain cost and manufacturing time targets without affecting quality. Look at almost any basic OEM car and you'll find the fender is usually the only thing touching the A pillar. The hood touches only the fenders, the door touches only the fender. There's only ever two things to line up. Everything is also flush so that it only has to align across a single curved surface as opposed to trying to line up multiple oblique surfaces (ie, the door curving inwards).

The problem with oblique surfaces is that any deviation in angle affects multiple planes. The problem is exacerbated when a majority of the pieces meeting up are pointy (fender is pointy, hood is pointy). Imagine taking 8 slices of pizza that make a whole pizza. Now trim one from crust to point such that it takes off 1/2". Now try to assemble the whole pizza. The piece is not only too narrow, but it's also too short. One trim made two issues. None of the points are big enough to cover the gap and shifting things around makes gaps elsewhere. Take a square pizza and make one piece 1/2" too short evenly. The piece is still long enough, it's just too narrow, but it's much easier to shift and fill the gap or simply trim the opposing piece by 1/2" to slide everything together.

Here is an excellent example. See how the hood touches only the fenders? The fender is the only thing touching the windhsield? The line on the front door follows directly up to the back side of the a pillar.
http://xdesktopwallpapers.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/2012-Audi-Q3-Side-View.jpg

The WRX follows the same example. The fender flare is built fully into the fender instead of crossing multiple panels.
http://st.motortrend.com/uploads/sites/10/2015/11/2012-subaru-impreza-2.5-wrx-sedan-side-view.png

Sports cars do deviate from the example above, but they also cost more (for many reasons). Take this 370Z. It breaks the rules a little bit but it still retains the flush surfaces and minimizes the number of pieces that touch each other by extending the bottom edge of the A pillar as opposed to having the hood come back and meet.

http://i43.tinypic.com/23icsiv.jpg

This porsche has a similar curve to the front door as the 818. The door itself is still flush with the outer surface of the fender and the top of the fender curves back and almost is flush with the Apillar. The a pillar is still inboard of the fender and door to hide the junction (vs being on top). The porsche is also a much more expensive car so they can spend more time on assembly without negatively affecting profit since the price is much higher to begin with to cover the cost of more custom fitting.
https://wallpaperscraft.com/image/auto_car_white_side_view_524_3840x1200.jpg

[Blwalker105]

Very insightful and informative Craig. I may have to eat just a little crow shortly, when I can post some pics.

[carbon fiber]

Just my 2 cents, they should have used a different hinge system/panel design where the door and fender could meet flush like a production car. To me what kills the whole junction of the a-pillar/fender/door is the rounded front of the door making for a poor looking fit. Look at the Porsche in the previous comment by mechie3, the fender and door blend perfectly and the a-pillar just blends/tucks behind the line created by the body. Simple and clean.

[GoDadGo]

GoDadGo's Stupid Question:

Did the earlier front end fit better that the current front end?

[Maximus]

Well, maybe the Gen2 will address these issues in a couple years. I am still planning on an 818, but am happy to wait for some revisions based off all you brave souls that took on Gen1.

[RM1SepEx]

I might be the least likely person to comment in support of FFR here but:

BOTH front ends can/will fit better than that. They are indeed not symmetrical but you can get it to line up and look pretty good w/o drastic measures. I'm as disappointed as you are being that if designed and MFG CADCAM they should indeed mirror side by side and they don't. It is also not unusual for use to find that the slotted adjustment areas are not adequate, you need to do some bending, grinding, spacer mfg, etc to get it together correctly. Don't try to get it to measure perfectly side to side, frustration goes up, productivity goes down and beer consumption grows. (Experience talking) Make it look good, I'm still not happy but I have people pulling in each and every time I stop somewhere to ask questions and take pictures.

My issue is the unfilled areas and voids. 2200 road miles and voids just keep popping. I'm so glad I didn't throw $$$$ at paint as it would be ruined by now.

[Frank818]

Well, at least I'm not alone in this sad trek.

Well, no matter what Tony said or anyone has done on their car, I managed to remove the gap on my passenger's side (driver has no gap). So it must be possible. And as you can see, my fender is far from being close to the windshield surround, like you.


60260

[redfogo]

Well, no matter what Tony said or anyone has done on their car, I managed to remove the gap on my passenger's side (driver has no gap). So it must be possible. And as you can see, my fender is far from being close to the windshield surround, like you.


60260

Frank I think the issue is just for us coupe guys? The 818s looks to have long enough covers along the frame.

[Frank818]

That's what I sort of think now, as everything on this thread about gap issues seems to be on the coupe, even Tony mentioned about the coupe.

Or maybe the S and C built by FFR since the C is available.

[Blwalker105]

OK, so after reading everyone's input, I decided to go back to the basics and see if maybe I hadn't overlooked anything. Turns out I did, and a few little things created problems that got magnified down the line.

First, I rechecked the levelness of the car front-to-rear. It was a little off (bubble touching the line) with the rear being a little low. When I raised it to level, my nose was now a bit lower than the rest of the car. I also realized that after fitting each front fender I had allowed both forward attach brackets to rest on their lowermost position in their adjustment slots. I guess it was just easier to have a reference point while I fitted the black plastic center section of the nose, but after I did, I never thought to raise it at all. This process combined to pull the rear of the fender-to-sidesail vertical piece up off the side sail about 0.2" 60290. This got me to wondering how far back the top of that area, where I had my large gaps, would be if I pulled the fenders up as far as they would go in the front. Long story, short, by doing this, I was able to move the upper, rear part of the fender almost 3/4" rearward.

60295 60296

I then hacked off my 'glassed up additions to see what things would look like. After much pulling, cursing, re-drilling attachment holes and other notable efforts, the gaps have gone down from "atrocious" to merely "bad". My plan now is to trim down the saved additions and glass them onto the rear of the fenders to cover the remaining areas.

The important thing I took from this experience is that the front end has to be treated like an entity and the order of fitment is extremely important. If I had to do it over again, I would attach the rear of the fenders to the side sails, then loosely hang the fenders (do not affix the attach brackets to the fenders yet at any location) and get the plastic center section attached first. Then, raise the front attach brackets to their highest position or close to it (hopefully, this will help with ground clearance down the line). Next, get two floor jacks and raise the undersides of the fender front corners to where they are just touching the outer portion of the attach brackets, leaving it loose enough that you can maneuver the fenders fore and aft with a little effort. Now, get a helper and lay the hood in place and position the rear, upper corners of the fenders. You will be surprised how much you can tweak things, sometimes as much as 3/4" to move things in position. Mark where your best fitment areas are and then start permanently attaching the fenders to the various brackets with hardware. Be very mindful of centering the entire nose right-to-left and getting your wheel wells centered to your hub flanges or wheels. I saved attaching the underside of the front fender corners to the attach brackets till last cause I had to really pull the driver's side forward to make up for the fenders being different lengths.

The rear areas of my fender-to-sidesail junction are still slightly elevated, but there is not enough adjustment built into the fender attach bracket slots to allow me to close my triangular gaps any more, and I don't think I want the nose to be raised any further (visual reasons) so I will deal with what I have right now.

[Mechie3]

Is your front end support level with the bottom of the frame? I couldn't get mine to be level.

[UnhipPopano]

Is the adjustment of the front to be level with the bottom always the best way, or for street use, would it be better to rake it up a couple of degrees? If you look at the images in #26, this is the norm.

[Mechie3]

Instructions say make it level. Mine ran out of adjustment when it was still over an inch too high. The rake could simply be because people tend to park too close to curbs and or dodging road debris. I'm always amused by how many people part by stopping when the front tires hit the curb.

[wleehendrick]

The rake could simply be because people tend to park too close to curbs and or dodging road debris. I'm always amused by how many people part by stopping when the front tires hit the curb.

Exactly... and this has led to the proliferation of those damn parking stops many lots have, several feet back from the curb or end of the spot, to keep those idiots from overhanging the sidewalk. These are typically 4-5" high, tall enough to damage a splitter/airdam. Our cars are low enough that we have to pay close attention to how close we can pull in, and have the rear potentially hang further out, just because soccer-mom/dads don't know where the limits of their massive vehicle are! </rant>

60327

[redfogo]

Instructions say make it level. Mine ran out of adjustment when it was still over an inch too high. The rake could simply be because people tend to park too close to curbs and or dodging road debris. I'm always amused by how many people part by stopping when the front tires hit the curb.

I am also at 1in. Planning to move it up a few more just to see if I can move my gap any more.

[UnhipPopano]

I believe that they must be part of some federal law. You can find them cost to coast and North to South. They also destroy your exhaust if you back in too far. And, what logic is there to use them in the handicap spots? Are they there to stop the wheelchairs or to trip up the blind?

[Blwalker105]

My nose is now about 1.2" higher than the fronts of the side sails/rear front fender areas. It's high enough that in order to make a smooth transition, the rear hole in the outer fender attach bracket points will need washers to ease the vertical transition, rear-to-front, from the underside of the front side sail area to the underside of the nose.

[Blwalker105]

OK, Here are some very preliminary pics of my fender modifications. I just glassed them on and rough sanded them. They will eventually get body filler and finish sanded, but these will give you an idea of where I am headed.

I paid attention to the pictures of well-done factory efforts that Craig posted and tried to minimize 3-plane intersections. I am pretty happy with the results, especially how the fender's hood line continues to the A-pillar break. It now looks like something I would not be ashamed to drive.

http://imgur.com/nrScNfG

http://imgur.com/qjjIYZ5

http://imgur.com/xjuduxO

http://imgur.com/CjmiNe5

http://imgur.com/rMNhmnx

[Blwalker105]

Oops, let's try again!!

http://i.imgur.com/nrScNfG.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/qjjIYZ5.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/xjuduxO.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/CjmiNe5.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/rMNhmnx.jpg

[STiPWRD]

Nicely done!

[flynntuna]

Looks like you turned lemons Into lemonade .:cool: nice job!

[erlihemi]

So I gotta ask. Having skimmed through this thread and seen some excellent response and helpful input, where is the section in the manual that addresses this fit up? I haven't built, nor do I have a manual, for the 818 so my reference is only what I've seen for the MKIV and Hotrod.
Mechie3 touched on the CAD issue earlier in the thread. If I could have a better manual than the printed manual I would put a 40" flatscreen in the garage, but all you gain is color pics with the CD.
Here's where I am going.
I have used several solid modeling and various 3D programs. I haven't used Solid Works so it either is junk or FFR is withholding useful information so people won't infringe on the design.
Why can't we have a few critical dimensions called out and a baseline point to measure/work from?
A couple videos on the electronic version of the manual?
A few more relevant pictorials of sequentially dependent steps vice having to look in 3 separate chapters?

Solid modeling is an extremely powerful tool that can produce extraordinary information for every facet of manufacturing.
Problem:
Hand laid fiberglass might be accurate +\- 1/4". Pictures with relevant dimensions and appropriate sequential dependencies called out might be helpful.

Comments?

[Frank818]

Wow you did a nice job there!! Looks like a supercar.
You had to make the hood really tiny close to the windshield but the fender looks awesome.

What mold type did you use to lay the fiberglass without dripping?

[turbomacncheese]

That does look really good. And mechie, Since you posted about how car companies try to avoid too many panels coming together at one spot, I can't stop looking at cars. Sure enough, I haven't seen a single one that has 3 panels at a point.

[Maximus]

That does look really good. And mechie, Since you posted about how car companies try to avoid too many panels coming together at one spot, I can't stop looking at cars. Sure enough, I haven't seen a single one that has 3 panels at a point.

Too true! Maybe some of the exotics or antiques at the next cars and coffee will be an example.

[Frank818]

That does look really good. And mechie, Since you posted about how car companies try to avoid too many panels coming together at one spot, I can't stop looking at cars. Sure enough, I haven't seen a single one that has 3 panels at a point.

HAHAHA! Craig certainly changed our lives, I'm doing the exact same thing!! I mean as you, not as Craig. lolll
90% of cars, trucks, pick-ups, SUVs I see all merge the fender with the A-pillar. Even those from decades ago, although less of them. Couple of exceptions are VW Eos and Kia Soul that merge with the hood. And funny enough, the sportier cars don't seem to merge the same way as the others, just like Craig predicted. The % is lower than 90% for those.

This guy's awesome.

[longislandwrx]

Anyone have an ETA on the thermoformed body?

[mikeford]

2 points, as mentioned above.

#1- Really great save OP!

#2- Now I'm looking at panel fitment just like you guys. Learn something new everyday!

Now my question is, since we all just learned that 3 points coming together is not quite bad (but isn't good), why did you extend the A pillar, fender and hood to meet at one point, as opposed to having the fender extend to both of the other 2?

[Blwalker105]

Thanks all!

Frank, no molds at all, just really basic 'glass techniques: First I cut off those points from the original A-pillar mod, reshaped them and epoxied them onto the fenders. Then, I placed the fender so that area was mostly horizontal and cut three pieces of highly conformable fiberglass (uscomposites style 7725) that were about 8" wider, front-to-rear, than I needed. I wet-out the whole area with my resin mix and just laid the cloth, one layer at a time, saturating each one. The extra 8" of dry cloth now hanging over the edge helps pull it down onto the curve. Then I just used my brush to periodically stipple that area till it starts to cure to make sure it stays on the rounded area. I also put a fourth layer of peel ply on to absorb excess resin and prep the surface for filler, but that step is not critical. On the thin vertical sides (in position) of the points that form the hood indentation, I just laid on 3 thin strips; that curve is too tight for even this cloth. The two areas of fiberglass just meet at this transition instead of being a continuous layup. Some ultimate strength is sacrificed but this area is not highly stressed.

[Mechie3]

Bill, that looks awesome! It looks finished vs a gaping hole that makes you say "what part did you forget?".



I haven't used Solid Works so it either is junk or FFR is withholding useful information so people won't infringe on the design.
Why can't we have a few critical dimensions called out and a baseline point to measure/work from?

Problem:
Hand laid fiberglass might be accurate +\- 1/4".

Comments?

Solidworks is a great program. I design all of my parts with it (both Zero Decibel and my day job that has $3.6B revenue). FFR won't share CAD because of the lawsuit they had with Shelby many years ago. They're very protective of their files. I wouldn't suggest they share these files with the general public but sharing portions of them with vendor partners that sign an NDA would make it easier for vendors to make parts as well as potentially improve their market share.

You touched on part of the issue. If fiberglass is +/- 1/4" ,that's certainly an issue. A bigger one is that the molds used to make the parts are +/- random amounts. CAD is a powerful tool, but the parts are only as good as the manufacturing technique. When they made molds they eliminated the #1 benefit of CAD and it's ability to transfer designs to machine tools directly. Our parts have manufacturing tolerances plus the addition of the mold tolerances (which arguably were worse than the actual part/part tolerance).





HAHAHA! Craig certainly changed our lives, I'm doing the exact same thing!! I mean as you, not as Craig. lolll
90% of cars, trucks, pick-ups, SUVs I see all merge the fender with the A-pillar. Even those from decades ago, although less of them. Couple of exceptions are VW Eos and Kia Soul that merge with the hood. And funny enough, the sportier cars don't seem to merge the same way as the others, just like Craig predicted. The % is lower than 90% for those.

This guy's awesome.

Lol. One thing I like to do with things is figure out exactly why one is not like the other when they are very close, but not quite. Break it down and eventually it becomes evident. Start keeping a tally in your head until you go "aha!". I like to do it with music too. There are several bands where I love some of their middle career stuff but then at the end it's just different. It's still very much the artist and you'd recognize the music as being played by them, but just something is off. I like to try and figure out exactly what changed. Tempo? Average pitch? Complexity? Number of instruments?

[ben1272]

Craig, to quote The Princess Bride, "you have a truly dizzying intellect!"


Bill, that looks awesome! It looks finished vs a gaping hole that makes you say "what part did you forget?".




Solidworks is a great program. I design all of my parts with it (both Zero Decibel and my day job that has $3.6B revenue). FFR won't share CAD because of the lawsuit they had with Shelby many years ago. They're very protective of their files. I wouldn't suggest they share these files with the general public but sharing portions of them with vendor partners that sign an NDA would make it easier for vendors to make parts as well as potentially improve their market share.

You touched on part of the issue. If fiberglass is +/- 1/4" ,that's certainly an issue. A bigger one is that the molds used to make the parts are +/- random amounts. CAD is a powerful tool, but the parts are only as good as the manufacturing technique. When they made molds they eliminated the #1 benefit of CAD and it's ability to transfer designs to machine tools directly. Our parts have manufacturing tolerances plus the addition of the mold tolerances (which arguably were worse than the actual part/part tolerance).






Lol. One thing I like to do with things is figure out exactly why one is not like the other when they are very close, but not quite. Break it down and eventually it becomes evident. Start keeping a tally in your head until you go "aha!". I like to do it with music too. There are several bands where I love some of their middle career stuff but then at the end it's just different. It's still very much the artist and you'd recognize the music as being played by them, but just something is off. I like to try and figure out exactly what changed. Tempo? Average pitch? Complexity? Number of instruments?

[Blwalker105]

mikeford, I'm not sure I understand your question. I extended the fender to get away from the factory's attempt at having 3 points in 3 dimensions meet in a single spot. The fender now meets at the A-pillar, and the hood meets at the A-pillar, but not in the same spot. The A-pillar is mostly back in it's original configuration with some added filler to raise the bottom end and a notch to visually mate with the angle of the hood. The pointy end of the hood will get glassed and filled to make a nicer transition with the A-pillar upon final fitment before paint.

[mikeford]

mikeford, I'm not sure I understand your question. I extended the fender to get away from the factory's attempt at having 3 points in 3 dimensions meet in a single spot. The fender now meets at the A-pillar, and the hood meets at the A-pillar, but not in the same spot. The A-pillar is mostly back in it's original configuration with some added filler to raise the bottom end and a notch to visually mate with the angle of the hood. The pointy end of the hood will get glassed and filled to make a nicer transition with the A-pillar upon final fitment before paint.

What was trying to say is that it looks like you have 3 points coming together. It may be the pics. I was trying (and failed) to ask why you didn't lop off the point on the hood and extend the fender up to meet it. It'd look like the 370z pic above, but instead of the A pillar coming down to the hood, the fender would come up to both the hood and A pillar.

You don't need to though, since you don't have 3 things meeting at the same place.

I stand by my above statement of great save. It looks "Factory".

[redfogo]

Has anyone talked to FFR about this I called them October 28th asked to talk to someone they just told me to send some pictures in an email 12 days no reply... I mean I feel FFR would maybe make things better by simply designing a patch panel kit for everyone to just DIY install themselves say sorry we messed up we will fix it in the revision mold but for all you other people with the old mold here is a patch panel fix kit or something...

I love all the ideas everyone has made to fix the issue. But rather then leaving everyone to make there own way to fix the problem. It would be nice if FFR could just own up and give us a way to make all our cars consistent or at least let that be an option?

[AZPete]

I agree, redfogo, that FFR should offer a solution to this problem, either with a patch kit or at least instructions about how the gap can be reduced. It reflects poorly on FFR and us builders. But, last week was SEMA so they have been very busy, so be patient for a reply.

[Mechie3]

Their car at SEMA has the same "problem". I say "problem", because it's all relative. Their past responses all seem to indicate "there's no problem, that's how it's designed". We have an issue tracking program at work. When you close out issues you select things like "cannot reproduce", "fixed", or "as designed, no issue". Seems like FFR selected the last one. Bill's solution is the best one I've seen and a great example to follow. I'm just lucky he lives near me so I can pick up some of his skills and learn.

[erlihemi]

Mechie3, I apologize for baiting you a little, but, redfogo and Azpete made the point I was looking for. We have multiple issues occurring and it feels like growing pains vice "kids on CAD". I made a comment awhile back on a different post that it felt like the 33 was just practice for the 818 production. Mold shift, bad fuel tanks, the other issues everyone has experienced as a group, and now the release of the gen 3 Daytona coupe point to the productivity of solid modeling and a good fab shop driven by a few sharp individuals with a shortage of production types such as yourself that understand process and quality control. FFR is fast approaching that threshold of managing growth. At this stage they need to focus on production quality or risk reducing throughput. I designed so many new prototypes one year I tied up the test lab and the pilot line in a major facility for six months. I had to go play manufacturing engineer, purchasing manager and test engineer to keep it all moving. But as you pointed out we didn't use the as designed excuse, we made it better. To do that it required slowing down the next product release. Witness at least 3 major releases. 818 coupe, steel 33 and new gen 3. Hopefully this brings the capital to improve the production facility and quality, vice bury the facility with too many molds...

[UnhipPopano]

When I was working as an engineer, too many of the people I worked with felt that any thing they overlooked could be fixed in the field. These fixes amounted to rework far more than the sum of all of our salaries combined. The history of the automobile is filled with similar examples of short changing the engineering.

I do not hold F5 to any higher standards than what is reported on in this site and expect that what they make is the result of individuals working on an assembly line without QA. They are selling car parts that are both good and low price. That said, I also expect that as F5 starts building the 33 for sale as a completed car, they will have a vested interest in making improvements to the design and quality. If someone can convince F5 to start building the 818 as a completed car, then expect to see improvements made to the quality of the kit.

[RM1SepEx]

BLWalker very nice work, I'd suggest shorten the hood a bit as well then dual wipers becomes a piece of cake too

[Mechie3]

Mechie3, I apologize for baiting you a little, but, redfogo and Azpete made the point I was looking for.

I fully agree with AZpete and RedFogo. I don't think it's correct to mark it "as designed". The engineers I work with tend to look at that as a last resort and/or a cop out. Having minimal fiberglass/body work experience the fix that Bill did will be a challenge. Fixing it at the production level is much better for everyone involved.

[flynntuna]

I'm beginning to wonder if this is the reason why they didn't go with the thermoformed panels.

[AZPete]

As I contemplate how I can fix or improve my triangle gaps, I wonder if anyone took a close-up photo of the fender/hood/door/A pillar on the black 818 in the SEMA Koni booth. Was there an 818 in the FFR booth? Or, is there any good photo of the problem area fixed without fiberglass reconstruction? Like Craig, trying to copy Bill's fix would be a big challenge for me.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hey Pete
Here you go.
Bob

60760 60761 60762 60763 60764

[Bob_n_Cincy]

The next picture is My car. I have done ZERO trimming to the door, fender, windshield or hood as you can see. I just carefully lined everything the best I could about a year ago so we could track it. Nothing rubs.
Bob

60765

[redfogo]

The next picture is My car. I have done ZERO trimming to the door, fender, windshield or hood as you can see. I just carefully lined everything the best I could about a year ago so we could track it. Nothing rubs.
Bob

60765

Bob_n_Cincy yours is an S though? I think the sides are correct length for the S. The coupe just has to short of length on the side like the mold was not correct.

[Mechie3]

Bob, didn't you do something where teh fender meets the side sail?


Thermoformed panels would have been good as the molds would have been CNC'd most likely. I visited Bill today. He said he'd post more photos of the process. His in person explanation made more sense.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob, didn't you do something where teh fender meets the side sail?
Thermoformed panels would have been good as the molds would have been CNC'd most likely. I visited Bill today. He said he'd post more photos of the process. His in person explanation made more sense.

My side sail to fender doesn't line up well. I will have to extend my pontoons about 1/2" forward.
I believe FFR is using fiberglass mold s for most of the thermoformed formed parts they are making now. (like dashes, headlight buckets) I could be wrong.
Bob

60771

[Frank818]

Oh god Bob, that is not "not lining up well", it's not lining up at all! :(

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Oh god Bob, that is not "not lining up well", it's not lining up at all! :(
Frank,
That was on purpose, I moved the whole body back to make room for my rear radiator.
Bob

[Frank818]

Frank,
That was on purpose, I moved the whole body back to make room for my rear radiator.
Bob

lol, you funny guy. :) Got me on that one.

[flynntuna]

Hey Pete
Here you go.
Bob

60760 60761 60762 60763 60764

Notice that using dark paint makes it harder to notice the gaping gaps

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Notice that using dark paint makes it harder to notice the gaping gaps
I have high resolution of these pictures if anyone thinks that might help them.
Bob

[mikeford]

I said out loud "they just 'fixed it' with dark paint, knowing it won't be in the sun at SEMA".

[AZPete]

This is not just a problem with the coupe top but has been a subject of several threads about the gap in the 818S. I know I had the triangle gaps on my 818S before I upgraded to the 818C. Here's one thread about the 818S:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?20622-windshield-fender-hood-then-maybe-the-doors

[flynntuna]

GM has an Opel GT concept car that has an interesting treatment to the door. :cool:

[flynntuna]

The TVR t350 has a similar door too..

[flynntuna]

The one change you might concider is extending the a pillar to the frame and trimming the hood to the end of the extended a pillar.
I'd be fearful of breaking off the tips of the hood when it's off the car.

[Frank818]

That Opel has a problem with tire color. :)

Yeah the TVR has very very very very similar doors to the 818! Is that the same TVR featured in Swordfish movie?

I think Flynn is right, the hood is very pointy.

[Blwalker105]

mikeford & flynntuna, I now think I know what you meant by either bringing the A-pillar down, or the fender up, to create something kind of like the Audi or the WRX pictures that Craig posted. Truth is, once I saw the elegance of that extended fender line going all the way back, kind of like the TVR t350, I stopped thinking about any other alternatives. I had never seen a t350 before, but the look kind of resonated with me, so I went with it. For anyone considering those other options, it should be no more difficult with the exception of the possibility of the metal A-pillar structural support being in closer proximity to the blend line the farther up the pillar you go. Bringing the A-pillar down would definitely be a more doable option. My hood points, while appearing very delicate, are anything but. I had already built-up the under structure by filling it with reinforced resin and 3 plies of fiberglass to point about 4" back from the points; the white filler above is reinforced with milled fiberglass so it is quite strong but I even glassed over this so the final effort would probably be stronger than the factory points.

[Mechie3]

Having seen Bill's pieces in person, I'd wager they're stronger than the original FFR pieces because of how he constructed them.

[Blwalker105]

Hang with me, everyone, I'm working on a post to help anyone interested in modifying their coupe fenders.

[Blwalker105]

I'm just about done with the fender point additions. I would like to encourage anyone wanting to attempt this mod that fiberglass work is a very forgiving medium and if you don't like your results, just grind them off and start over. If you are gutsy enough to build your own car, then this project is WELL within your reach.

Unlike other more expensive mediums, fiberglass work is relatively cheap; you only need a few basic materials and products to be off and running. The real secret lies in the combinations of these goodies.

Here is my list of the basic ingredients needed to complete any fiberglass project from these fender points, to hard point fillets, to panel layups. I get most of my supplies through USComposites.com (no affiliation) because it is almost one-stop shopping. The two exceptions are the adhesive-backed sheet wax which is used to create molds, dams and uniform panel gaps and the peel ply. Just go to eBay and search "Sheet Lining Wax for Carbon Fiber Molds". I recommend having 2 thicknesses: 1/16" and 1/8" inch. The thinner stuff is good for areas where you need minimum clearances and the thicker stuff is great for making uniform final panel gaps if you have to build-up surfaces for finish body work. A 12" x 24" sheet of each will probably last forever unless you do a lot of fiberglass work. Everything past the Peel Ply section is hardware store or Amazon available.



Resin

700 Vinyl Ester Resin - This product is similar to what F5 uses for the body itself. It is strong and very tolerant of mix ratios but has a relatively short shelf life of about 3 months, so don't buy large quantities. The recommended mix ratio IMO is inadequate: you will be waiting forever for it to cure. I use 16 drops hardener per half-ounce and it gives me about 30-45 minutes of working time. I give it a good long time to fully cure cause I hate clogging my sand paper. Plan on doing the 'glass work one day and sanding & shaping the next. You may have read about the addition of wax but I NEVER use it and see no reason to add the additional step of removing it later to prepare for more layups or body work. Wax is used to isolate the resined area of low-mass layups from the atmosphere to help them cure. If I have any areas that are still tacky 8 hrs or so later, I just use a heat gun to lightly warm (140-150 degrees F) them for about 4-5 minutes. In warmer climes, just placing them out in the sunlight for a couple hrs will get the job done.


Fiberglass

Style 7725 Highly Comformable Fiberglass Cloth - This is the best all-around cloth from my experience and I could probably make a pinkie ring for Barbie with it. There are probably places where thicker, hardware store stuff would work, but with this fabric, I just add layers for extra stiffness and strength. It's very lightweight so 2 or 3 plies will usually get the jobs done. Be advised that that more plies or layers you have, the less it wants to conform to tight radii. A couple yards will probably be more than enough for our projects.


Modifiers

Here is where the magic begins and the best part is that it is easy! I routinely use only 2 modifiers: 3M Glass Bubbles and 1/32" Milled Fibers. When I am making slurries or body fillers that have to be sanded down to existing gelcoat, these get the job done without having to resort to Cabosil as a thickener. Cab is great if you want something you can drill and tap later, but for our purposes it cures much harder than the surrounding gelcoat, making final sanding very difficult. The Bubbles and Milled Fiber mixes are easy to sand, shape and are very sturdy on their own. There were plenty of places on my plane where I simply sanded, primed and painted pretty large areas of these mixes and they held up to daily cruising speeds of 225 mph and +4 and -2 G's. (the plane could take +8 and -4, but the pilot couldn't :/). Stout stuff. More on mix ratios later. With these, you can also make the best body filler that money can't buy.



Peel Ply

This product isn't a strict necessity, but it makes for nicer layups by deleting the next sanding step in preparation for body work and it gets rid of those micro grams of extra resin. When cured, just peel it off and you will have a surface ready for body filler or additional layups without the need for any sanding. When doing layups, I simply cut pieces slightly larger than the resined area and apply them directly onto my wetted-out fiberglass as the top layer. Be sure to leave dry perimeters of at least 1" or you won't have anything to grab and peel. It can be found on eBay: something like "Airtech Econostitch Peel Ply 54" for about $4. Peel ply doesn't like to bend and shape itself around corners like the fiberglass, so you sometimes have to get tricky and cut relief slots and/or use multiple pieces to cover your layups. I also have to come back more often with my stipple brush to make sure the peel ply is staying attached to bends and corners until the resin starts to set up, but that is a small price to pay.


Visqueen

One of the first things I learned building my plane was how to prepare layups off-site and be able to carry them to the work area for attachment. If you've ever attempted to make multiple layer layups and transport them even 2 feet away, you will know it is almost impossible to have them keep their shape. The secret is to use a nice medium-to-heavy thickness Visqueen as the bottom and the top layers of your layup. More on this later.


Chip Brushes

I use 1" and 2" chip brushes from Amazon for wetting-out areas with resin and for stippling, then throw them away after each use. They are cheap enough to not have to hassle with cleaning them.


Scissors

Invest in a good, dedicated pair of scissors or shears. Fiberglass is tough on metal. Something like these: https://www.amazon.com/Wiss-W20-8-Inch-Inlaid-Industrial/dp/B005LBMFCY/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1479662502&sr=8-8&keywords=shears


Painter's Tape

Resin does not stick to either side of painter's tape, or wax paper, or anything greased or oiled, but will cure just fine while touching it. Use this to your advantage when making molds and dams for slurries.


Stir Sticks

Standard 1/16" stir stick/tongue depressors. Buy a big box for pennies. Use them for everything from the obvious uses to covering them in painter's tape for mold and dam sides, etc.


That's about it for supplies. Stay tuned.

[Blwalker105]

Fender Mod Procedures and General Fiberglass/Resin Techniques


I am going to have to describe how I would have done some of this had I not opted to try it from the A-pillar down first, but here goes.


A lot of what I do here involves the use of resin mixes and slurries, and some of it is just basic fiberglass techniques.


Slurries and Fillers

I use generic clear plastic cups for mixing my resins. For any size cups I buy, I always take one and successively fill it with 1/2 oz water and mark the level, then 1 oz water and mark the level, then 2 oz and so on to about 4 oz. Measure up from the bottom of the cup and record all the measurements. This way you can accurately mix your future resin/hardener blends without having to resort to a tiny measuring cup for each batch. For instance, if I want to use 1/2 oz resin, I use my calipers to measure up 0.3" and mark my fill line. If I want 1 oz, I measure up and mark 0.5". Since you may be new to these processes, I would suggest using 2 cups for each batch. Mix your initial resin/hardener batch in one, then transfer about 1/4 of that into the other cup. The first cup is where you will be blending your slurry and the second cup will be for thinning the first cup back down in case you thicken it with modifiers too much. Add modifiers in small amounts, as they will have very little effect at first, then a very big effect as you near your desired viscosity.

For our purposes, we will concentrate on 4 basic viscosities: honey, honey/mayonnaise, mayonnaise, and peanut butter.

Honey - useful for squeezing into voids, vertical holes and not much else. To each ounce of resin mix, I would aim for a ratio of 1 part Milled Fiberglass and 1 part Glass Bubbles: Start with a half teaspoon of each product, stir thoroughly and continue adding half teaspoons until reaching your desired viscosity.

Honey/Mayonnaise - this is the in-between viscosity best suited for molds like the fender points. Same ratio as above, just mix a little thicker. You want it to be able to flow to the corners but not overflow the mold before you can get get painter's tape over it and it should look something like this.

http://i.imgur.com/sg2SrdF.jpg

Mayonnaise - this consistency is useful for making your own high quality body filler, but be advised: 1 ounce of resin mix will make about 6 or 7 ounces of filler so don't mix up too much! For each ounce of resin mix, aim for a ratio of about 1 part Milled Fibers to 3 parts Glass Bubbles, half teaspoons full at a time. After a little practice, you won't need to go so slowly, but things thicken quickly toward the end. If you have vertical surfaces to fill, thicken a little more toward peanut butter.

Peanut butter - this consistency is good for hard point fillets, vertical body fillers or free-forming.


Do's and Dont's

* Before adding any modifiers to your resin/hardener mix, brush some on every surface you want the slurry to adhere to. This will strengthen the chemical bond.
* Do use painter's tape to keep slurry from flowing out of your mold. Just think of it as the mold's ceiling.
* Never use any modifiers between layers of multi-ply layups...they will significantly weaken the structure. Resin only here.


For starting the fender point mod, I would want to create a sheet-wax mold attached to the rear of the fender. I would first sand the upper rear of the fender area and the wheel well edges to allow the resin to bond with it; resin will not stick to any shiny surfaces very well. Then open the associated door all the way to it's stop and cut a piece of 1/16" wax sheet, sticky side up, to attach under the rear of the fender and form a nice gentle curve up over the door and continue under the a-pillar. This will be the floor of the mold. Now I would cut strips of wax sheet to form the rest of the mold's sides. Use painter's tape if necessary to keep everything together and seal up any corners. Make everything oversize now, cause you will sand it down to finished form later.
Here are some pictures of what the basic mold would have looked like if you can ignore my already-formed points being there.

http://i.imgur.com/d0TKeUH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/JjYTZLd.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3wphymQ.jpg

Mix up a batch of slurry starting with an ounce of liquid. This should be enough for both fender points. Mix more if necessary. Pour into your molds and use tape if necessary to keep it in there. Let cure.
Remove the wax and tape and carefully grind/sand them down to near your finished profiles. They're tougher than you think but use some caution. If you break one off, just epoxy it back on (kind of what I did) and keep going. You're going to be adding a lot of filler material toward the front of the fender so don't worry about perfection there. Do, however, try to be very precise in forming your new compound-curved wheel arch from the bottom of the points up to their trailing edge: this part will get fiberglass skin and not much filler. You should now have something like this.

http://i.imgur.com/oVWfBAr.jpg

[Blwalker105]

Glassing the fender points

Remove the fenders and place them so the area ready to glass is mostly horizontal. At this point, you can do one of two things: either apply the fiberglass directly onto the surface, one ply at a time or pre-make the layup and apply it as one piece. Either will work just fine. Sometimes, especially if you are doing long, thin layups you may want to choose the latter process, so I'll share it with you.
First, make a paper template of the area you want to glass then transfer it to a piece of Visqueen that's at least 3" larger in each dimension then the template. Turn the Visqueen over so the marker's ink doesn't contaminate your resin and tape it to your work area. Cut out 2 or 3 plies of fiberglass fabric to match your template and prepare some resin mix. Use a chip brush to coat the inside of your template on the Visqueen (it will bead up quickly but don't worry), then add each ply, one at a time slightly staggering any edges that have to be sanded down to existing gelcoat areas. As each ply is applied, use your brush to press it down into the existing resin and coat it entirely. I was taught a "stippling" technique whereby one keeps the tip of the brush in contact with the fiberglass while bobbing the rest of the brush up and down and moving slowly along your work piece. After your last ply is thoroughly wetted-out, place another piece of Visqueen over the entire thing.
Now, cut out your template area, carry it to the car, peel off whichever is going to be the bottom, place the layup down, then peel off the top. I have noticed that vinyl ester resin makes the Visqueen want to roll up more than epoxy resin, so stay with the thicker stuff. Be sure to clean your scissors and prep area with alcohol or acetone before it cures. You WILL forget the scissors sometime, but a razor blade will easily slice the cured resin off the next day.

http://i.imgur.com/X0vllVKl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/X9fEJptl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/D1rVZ86l.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Hs1sElLl.jpg

I left this layup long to help it pull down onto the curve of the fender lip, but it really wasn't necessary.
http://i.imgur.com/ieBWwZel.jpg

[Blwalker105]

If you want to use Peel Ply, now is the time.

http://i.imgur.com/Hyu1L5gl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Moj8Bryl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nktnr9Sl.jpg



The rest is pretty self-explanatory. You will need a fair amount of resin filler or body filler to build up the area in front of your points to get rid of the "ski jump" trailing edges of the points, and some filler to blend the lower A-pillar to your new area, but it should be pretty easy by then.

[Blwalker105]

I decided to extend my A-Pillar down to better fit with the hood point, so yesterday I made up a quick mold and filled it in. Here's how it turned out.

http://i.imgur.com/D3YPWPgl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qdZH7I7l.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pEMrwT3l.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HlGugT3l.jpg


Good Luck and feel free to PM me if you need any specifics answered.

[turbomacncheese]

Thanks for doing this. I'm new to fiberglass, but I think I can follow along. Good work.

[wleehendrick]

Fender Mod Procedures and General Fiberglass/Resin Techniques]

Awesome write-up. This NEEDS to be a sticky!

[AZPete]

Thanks! I have no fiberglass experience but now have to fix my triangle gap and a hole in the rear bumper due to changing my exhaust. Thanks!

[Blwalker105]

Thanks all, that took most of yesterday afternoon. This is why my car is progressing so slowly! Lol

[Canadian818]

What did you use to glue the stir sticks to the hood after you cut it? And how does it affect the gelcoat?

[Blwalker105]

Hot glue...easy to get off and it doesn't hurt a thing.

The underside has a 3-ply, 3" wide layup along the entire length.

[Frank818]

So you use sheet-wax to form molds? And these are sold at the same places where you buy resin?

[erlihemi]

Bill,

This really should be a sticky. Extremely good info. Thanks for posting!

[Blwalker105]

Frank, eBay. "Sheet Lining Wax for Carbon Fiber Molds"

[Blwalker105]

And yes, that's how I form the molds and dams. The only thing to be careful of here is to use wax that is very thin, like 1/16" for the floor of this mold because you want as little height above your door as possible when it is in the opened position. The reason for this is to keep the finished height of the points as low as possible and not look like little ski jumps where you have to add a ton of filler to the A-pillars to visually match the interface.

I use the 1/16" stuff for molds and the 1/8" stuff for final door gaps.

[flynntuna]

Bill,

This really should be a sticky. Extremely good info. Thanks for posting!

I agree great info, here comes the but... I don't think the moderators will make a sticky of this thread with this title.:rolleyes:
If a new thread was started with a different title and move everything from post 87 foward on to it, then it would make a great sticky or Wiki.

[AZPete]

Bill, thanks for the detailed description of fixing the tringle gaps, but before I started that project I thought I'd try reinstalling the new front fenders in hopes of closing the triangle gaps. I removed both front fenders and the grill piece, bolted the fenders to the grill, and the fenders to the side sails which is the only specific attachment point. By not attaching the front I was able to raise the front and pull the fenders back, in hopes of closing the triangle gaps. This worked on the driver side but not on the passenger side where the fender is shorter. I thought I was making progress but I had to move the fenders inward to close the triangle gap, which then made the fenders too close for the hood to fit, by nearly 3 inches. I then tried raising the center of the hood with a brace underneath to curve the hood reducing its width, but to make up the 3 inches the hood is so high it blocks vision and looks weird. So, after many hours I have learned that there is no solution other than extending the fenders with fiberglass, as Bill detailed, or cutting/patching/refinishing the hood as someone else did recently.

I'm writing this in case you also are thinking of re-installing the new front fenders to solve the triangle gaps, so maybe this will save you the time trying. Tomorrow I'll put it all back the way it was with the hood fitting but with the triangle gaps . . . and plan on Bill's fender fabrication.

[turbomacncheese]

Thanks Pete!!

[Blwalker105]

Thanks Pete. I can't tell you how many things I tried to no avail. In the end, after both the hood and fender mods were done with the front end at it's highest position, I loosened the front fender outriggers and diagonal braces to see if I could lower it. Surprise, it worked! I was able to get it down maybe 3/8" or so, with the only side effect being that the hood points are now a little tight to the A-pillars. Kind of strange, as one would think the opposite would occur. Like you found out, even with flexible stuff and working in 3-dimensions, sometimes you just can't get things to do what you want. Or worse, they do just the opposite.

[AZPete]

Now it is 6 months later - June 2017 - and I'm back studying Bill's tutorial so I can fix my A pillar gap and also fill a hole in the right rear bumper where my previous exhaust was. I also noticed that the newer hard top has fiberglass much further down the A pillar than mine:

68755

I think I'll try extending the A pillar like this 4/2017 version, then if that doesn't solve the gap I can extend the fender like Bill did. A least that's the plan . . . after I finish a few other projects, anyway. Don't ask for pics because I have no schedule and work slowly.

[07FIREBLADE]

Kinda wish I wasn't the first hardtop retrofitters... I'm just like you Pete. I was originally gonna work the fenders and gaps like in the other thread. But seeing this I might do this instead. I'm starting on body work for a end of summer paint job. I'll try to post photos as I go.

[redfogo]

Glad to see they fix fixed things, but I'm rather frustrated with FFR about this because I called them talked to them on the phone they said they would help me out with this top issue if it was actually a "problem" with my top. Both sides were different lengths sounds like a problem to me. I was told they would help. I just need to email in pictures and proof(this was probably just to get me off the phone...). I did all that and of course I never got a single reply back. I have a bodywork friend who told me he can fix the problem. I know he can fix it better then I can, so that's my plan. Still be nice if FFR could email me back or send us a repair patch section idk say sorry its bad. I emailed back on 10/28 and again on 12/6 but of course nothing lol.

[07FIREBLADE]

Redfogo call them and talk to Courtnie, she's pretty good. If you get helped and then send something your way then maybe we can all get it.

[redfogo]

Redfogo call them and talk to Courtnie, she's pretty good. If you get helped and then send something your way then maybe we can all get it.

The problem is you call you talk on the phone and then they ask for pictures of proof to get an idea of the problem you send the email with pictures then you get no response lol. I'm not sure about your top but on my top the left and the right side corner were cut to 2 different lengths one side it bad and the other side is super bad lol. So no matter were I put the fenders they cut my top back so far on one corner there is no way to hide anything. I forwarded my old emails to Courtney just now maybe she can get them to the right person. I have kinda gave up on trying for the fix but your suggestion made me remember to try again haha thanks :)

I will post the pictures that I sent them when I get home
http://imgur.com/a/6D5PP

[07FIREBLADE]

Looks mildly worse then mine. I had one of the first retrofits shipped. I had a similar problem with my inner door cards being different lengths. I was told that when they got correct ones they would send them to me but that was almost a year ago.

[UnhipPopano]

It does not look like they [F5] have computer applications in place to track commitments and missing parts. You probably should send them monthly reminders asking if there is an update.

[mac1]

i'm at the very beginning stage of fiberglass work.

what is being used to create the shape you went with prior to fiberglass?
and is that wax strips used for the borders?'

I guess I need help with the steps 1,2,3

[mac1]

I’m sorry I didn’t see the 3rd page with all the answers. lol

[kcarlasc]

This is a great thread and great instructions. Has anyone thought about using or have used Urethane Foam.. Since there is no structural support needed wondering how it might work...

[cpforyou]

Does anyone have photos of this on an 818C to show how it looks where the fendor, door, and A pillar meets?

[Blwalker105]

Does anyone have photos of this on an 818C to show how it looks where the fendor, door, and A pillar meets?

Look at post #44 on page 2 of this thread

[Newkitguy]

Any photos completed? Maybe from a couple feet back as well as closeups?