Nuts about bolts

[thebeerbaron]

Hoping some folks with more FFR and automotive engineering experience can enlighten me a bit on what may be an unwarranted obsession on my part.

My understanding is that current FFR kits include SAE hardware, while all donor vehicles use metric hardware.

Why SAE?

I'm sure there are good reasons, but I haven't come up with any using my pea-sized, beer-addled brain.

To me it looks like nothing but downsides: I have to run out and buy a SAE tool set to complement the metric set that covers my two current vehicles. I'll never know whether the fastener I'm looking at requires an SAE or metric wrench, so I'll have to grab at least two wrenches to figure it out. And with nice, friendly standards like JIS, DIN, and ISO setting out easy-to-identify progressions of metric bolt sizes, I never have to wonder if something is a 10mm or an 11mm (aside - are there such standards for SAE?)

Not trying to cause any further spastic reactions in Jim's eye lids or be a whining little runt, but I really feel that a world-class kit would use metric fasteners that match the standard of the donor (in the 818's case, JIS). I wonder whether it's harder to get a FFR kit to (some remote metric-centric country), or find a set of SAE tools there.

If SAE fasteners are used, there's got to be a good reason I'm missing, right?

[Steve91T]

It's just another excuse to buy more tools!!!!

[Niburu]

it's because no one in Massachusetts has never heard of the metric system

[kyle242gt]

SAE hardware is generally less expensive.

[Niburu]

SAE hardware is generally less expensive.
this too, Yankees are notoriously cheap

[16g-95gsx]

SAE hardware is generally less expensive.

Not to mention your average hardware store doesn't carry the best selection of the stuff. Ive always felt that that was something that bothered me.

[thebeerbaron]

But FFR is buying these things in huge quantities, I don't buy the price argument. Unless it really is cheaper to make SAE bolts for some reason? Also, how many high-grade bolts does the average hardware store carry, even in the more common (here) SAE format?

[Cooluser23]

Please have metric nuts and bolts. If this kit is truly international it will make things so much easier for builders around the world. (since the U.S. is pretty much the only country that doesn't use the metric system. Also SAE tools are much harder to buy outside the U.S.)

[Niburu]

oh piffle, this is what they make adjustable wrenches for and those gator socket thingies
http://www.jennyreviews.com/wp-content/themes/jenny/thumb.php?src=http://www.jennyreviews.com/wp-content/files/Gator-Grip.jpg













I am kidding BTW

[BrandonDrums]

Humm, perhaps most older Fords used as donors for the 65 coupe and roadster kits are mainly comprised of SAE nuts and bolts.

I recall using SAE stuff quite a bit more than metric on the donor teardown of my bud's 96 SVT cobra mustang.

If this is the case, it makes sense so you stick with a standard unit for the kit in conjunction with the donor.

[StatGSR]

Please have metric nuts and bolts. If this kit is truly international it will make things so much easier for builders around the world. (since the U.S. is pretty much the only country that doesn't use the metric system. Also SAE tools are much harder to buy outside the U.S.)

this may very well be the best argument for why it should be metric. personally i love metric, but thats mostly what i have been exposed to playing with honda's and Subarus, then again everything on my silverado is metric.....

best thing about metric stuff seems to be i can take an entire car apart with about 10 tools....

that said, yes decent metric nuts and bolts always seem cost substantially more when compared to SAE bolts atleast when running to a hardware store or Home Depot...

[cycleguy55]

According to the U.S. Metric Association: "Among countries not claiming to be metric, the U.S. is the only significant holdout." Source: http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/internat.htm

[armstrom]

best thing about metric stuff seems to be i can take an entire car apart with about 10 tools....

This! I love being able to just KNOW the wrench size to use based on what the bolt/nut is being used for. Most manufacturers stick to rules like this:
small stuff? 10mm socket
a little bigger? 12mm socket
beefy stuff? 14mm

You can do probably 90% of your common repairs and maintenance with just those three sizes. Now if you want to start doing more involved stuff like removing the main drive pulley from the front of the engine you may need to jump up to 17 or 19mm sockets. But even then most things in/on the engine stick with 10-12-14...

Metric is your FRIEND :)

[thebeerbaron]

OK, so apparently one of my assumptions was incorrect - I thought even cars from US manufacturers went metric decades ago. Huh. Amazing.

When I get a chance later I'll look at bulk pricing on metric fasteners, I just can't believe they're really more expensive in quantity, in similar grades.

[StatGSR]

^ Like i said my Silverado uses metric, i think it is a little bit of a mash-up though...

and armstrom the crank pulley is larger than a 19mm ;)

btw its a 22mm

[PhyrraM]

Fords are metric. Should be every one since about 1980ish. They even renamed the 302 to 5.0

Not sure what's up with the Cobra, but the dozen or so Fords I've wrenched on in the last 20 years or so use metric heads on the fasteners.

I totally agree that FFR needs to start migrating to metric fasteners with the 818. (Assuming they don't currently)

[Steve91T]

You can really tell that everyone is trying to keep their minds off this impossible wait till open house.

[Ks2]

i cant recall ever working on a car that wasn't metric... my motorcycle uses primarily hex keys but i don't think that counts, and since 6/5ths of Americans are bad at fractions one would think we would have switched to metric years ago..

(i say that because i tutored a student who was sure if you added 1/2 + 1/2 you got 2/4ths... he finished his medical degree and is now working at a pharmacy... scary thought)

[Steve91T]

i cant recall ever working on a car that wasn't metric... my motorcycle uses primarily hex keys but i don't think that counts, and since 6/5ths of Americans are bad at fractions one would think we would have switched to metric years ago..

(i say that because i tutored a student who was sure if you added 1/2 + 1/2 you got 2/4ths... he finished his medical degree and is now working at a pharmacy... scary thought)

Haha, that wasn't me, was it? Fractions may as well be chinese to me.

[Ks2]

the scary part is how bad most college students (liberal arts at least) are with basic math... no child left behind seems to be leaving everyone behind... but that is a topic for an off topic forum

since the motor and running gear in the subaru are all metric it makes sense the rest of the kit be metric then we don't have to buy two sets of tools...

[Steve91T]

the scary part is how bad most college students (liberal arts at least) are with basic math... no child left behind seems to be leaving everyone behind... but that is a topic for an off topic forum

since the motor and running gear in the subaru are all metric it makes sense the rest of the kit be metric then we don't have to buy two sets of tools...

Pilots would scare you...

[thebeerbaron]

since the motor and running gear in the subaru are all metric it makes sense the rest of the kit be metric then we don't have to buy two sets of tools...

That would be my hope, so I was wondering if someone more intelligent than I couldn't point out why that wish is irrational.


math puns...ewwwww

[riptide motorsport]

What ever hapened to duct tape and glue?

[bromikl]

I'd hate to waste all those nuts and bolts that come free on the donor vehicle.... :P

[Silvertop]

That would be my hope, so I was wondering if someone more intelligent than I couldn't point out why that wish is irrational.

Well, I must not be more intelligent than you -- because it doesn't make any sense to me either to need two sets of tools to work on the same car. I already own two sets of tools, and I still wouldn't care for that scenario. I would constantly be reaching for the wrong kind of tool, setting myself up for rounded bolts and skinned knuckles.

Actually, I'm betting that FFR avoids this problem...........

[crackedcornish]

Well, I must not be more intelligent than you -- because it doesn't make any sense to me either to need two sets of tools to work on the same car. I already own two sets of tools, and I still wouldn't care for that scenario. I would constantly be reaching for the wrong kind of tool, setting myself up for rounded bolts and skinned knuckles.

Actually, I'm betting that FFR avoids this problem...........

you guys who don't like mixed fasteners on their vehicles better stay away from Jeep Wranglers.

they're covered not only with a mix of metric and inch pattern, but also with Torx (regular and tamper proof) fasteners as well, And a lot of the aftermarket skid plating stuff uses flat head socket cap screws of various sizes :mad:

[wjfawb0]

My 2007 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon Unlimited also had allen or hex head screws holding the hard top on.

I already have two sets of tools, so no worries here. At my job I buy tons of SAE bolts every year for construction jobs. Most are galvanized, but I buy quite a few silicon bronze and stainless too. Almost all are heavy grade made for outdoor steel structures and bus work at high voltage substations.

[Someday I Suppose]

I'm not sure you can make the statement that US manufactures went metric years or decades ago. Mustangs seem to be a hodge podge of both SAI and Metric bolts depending on the part and where that particular part is sourced and manufactured. To take one apart you need both standard and metric tools available to you.


OK, so apparently one of my assumptions was incorrect - I thought even cars from US manufacturers went metric decades ago. Huh. Amazing.

When I get a chance later I'll look at bulk pricing on metric fasteners, I just can't believe they're really more expensive in quantity, in similar grades.

[kyle242gt]

OT, but I recall being told by a mechanic that some GM car or other had one set of metric and one set of SAE headbolts.

I don't buy that anyone considering building a car like this doesn't have both types of tools.

Far more likely to find SAE in various grades and threadpitches than even find metric at all in local hardware stores, though my local Ace has a good selection.

They may be cheaper because of simpler metallurgy, or coarser threads easier to cut?

[PhyrraM]

Virtually all bolts are sold to OEMs in vast quantities by the pound, fluctuating with the price of steel. Higher quality bolts or harder to make ones have a higher margin, but it's still anchored to weight and cost of steel.

To lower level consumers, like us or possibly FFR, the cost of bolts is mostly a supply and demand thing. Metric bolts are not common and a "middleman" of some sort has to sit on them longer, so the price is higher. SAE bolts are much more used and a vendor can 'turn' them faster, so they take a much lower margin on them.

I'm sure the exact opposite is the case in other parts of the world.

[armstrom]

I don't buy that anyone considering building a car like this doesn't have both types of tools.
Dave has said from the beginning that he wants this to be a world car. Outside of North America and the UK you will be hard pressed to find people with both SAE and metric tools. It's generally metric all the way.

So yes, your statement would be true if the only people considering buying the kit lived in the US, but a quick look at the locations of the various design submissions will show that there is global interest in this car.

-Matt

[16g-95gsx]

Most cars that Ive worked on could be disassembled almost entirely using nothing more than a 10, 12, 14, 17mm and a phillips head screwdriver :).

[thebeerbaron]

Most cars that Ive worked on could be disassembled almost entirely using nothing more than a 10, 12, 14, 17mm and a phillips head screwdriver :).

True. But most cars could also be disassembled with a sawz-all. The important test is reassembling the car. Which is where riptide's duct tape and glue come in :)

Guess we'll find out tomorrow. Maybe I'll bust out the ruler and measure some fasteners :)

[Niburu]

What ever hapened to duct tape and glue?
let's not forget coat hanger wire either

[Gun Bunny]

True. But most cars could also be disassembled with a sawz-all. The important test is reassembling the car. Which is where riptide's duct tape and glue come in :)

Guess we'll find out tomorrow. Maybe I'll bust out the ruler and measure some fasteners :)

Post of the day, dude. Though I would have gone with a K12, but that's just the public safety professional in me talking...

http://www.diamondbackfire.com/data/products/000/000/097/K12Mega.jpg

[BrandonDrums]

Virtually all bolts are sold to OEMs in vast quantities by the pound, fluctuating with the price of steel. Higher quality bolts or harder to make ones have a higher margin, but it's still anchored to weight and cost of steel.

To lower level consumers, like us or possibly FFR, the cost of bolts is mostly a supply and demand thing. Metric bolts are not common and a "middleman" of some sort has to sit on them longer, so the price is higher. SAE bolts are much more used and a vendor can 'turn' them faster, so they take a much lower margin on them.

I'm sure the exact opposite is the case in other parts of the world.

Humm, this seems a little off in terms of supply and demand. If no one wants metric bolts so the supplier has to sit on them longer, he would lower the price to make them more attractive buyers if he had an excess supply. If it's rare then he wouldn't be able to sit on them long because the demand would exced supply.

Both are readily available, I just think Dave and FFR don't like to source any foreign parts because he really sticks to is Made in the USA mantra. SAE nuts are probably more frequently made domestically than Metric.

[PhyrraM]

I used middleman in quotes because it is very often the manufacturer itself that sits on them. They are made in batches.

It costs a manufacturer no more to make metric than to make SAE other than a DIN bolt usually has more surface treatment and strength treating.

Foreign or domestic? I'm not sure, but I would guess that most all bolts, SAE or DIN, are imported. We've allowed our steel industry to go to the crapper, and I can't see bolts being any different. Bravo to FFR if they are choosing SAE because they can source domestically made ones.

[Gollum]

This thread reminds me of the one big reason I love hondas (90's especially) is that they come apart with such a small selection of tools, and you don't need a million extensions and ratchet types to get to everything. Probably the easiest cars to work on for their era.

If it were a vote, I'm 100% for metric. Just make it easy please. That being said I understand that there's other factors involved.

[crackedcornish]

This thread reminds me of the one big reason I love hondas (90's especially) is that they come apart with such a small selection of tools, and you don't need a million extensions and ratchet types to get to everything. Probably the easiest cars to work on for their era.

If it were a vote, I'm 100% for metric. Just make it easy please. That being said I understand that there's other factors involved.

yeah, I miss my CRX, it was a quick, fun, simple, and inexpensive little car.....R.I.P.(rusted into pieces) my little red Honda


I hope this car follows dirtbike thinking on so many levels of both ease of maintenance and simplicity in exchanging damaged body and chassis parts

[Cooluser23]

Could we make a poll about this?
I for one think it would be in FFR's best interest to use metric, if they plan on selling this car internationally. Also, it would be cool to stick to the same common size bolts featured on the donor engine. This way less tools are required for field repair, or bodywork at a race track.

For instance: on the Pontiac Fiero, it seems most of the car is assembled with T-15, T-25, 10mm, 13mm, and 15mm bolts. It makes it very easy to carry only few tools with the car at all times.
if a 1980's GM American car is all metric, why can't a FFR be so as well?

[Cooluser23]

i cant recall ever working on a car that wasn't metric... my motorcycle uses primarily hex keys but i don't think that counts, and since 6/5ths of Americans are bad at fractions one would think we would have switched to metric years ago..
(i say that because i tutored a student who was sure if you added 1/2 + 1/2 you got 2/4ths... he finished his medical degree and is now working at a pharmacy... scary thought)

Sadly that is very true. My high school science class only taught metrics, yet refused to give us a conversion chart to SAE. This causes just about anyone my age (30 and under) to not understand the progression of bolt sizes in SAE. If a 10mm bolt is too small, I'll grab at 11mm, or 12mm socket. But if a 5/16ths is too small I have no clue which size would be the next higher up, unless I have a toolchest where the sockets are in order.

[2KWIK4U]

I agree it would make it simpler to stay metric as the original car/donor would be.

[Oppenheimer]

Sadly that is very true. My high school science class only taught metrics, yet refused to give us a conversion chart to SAE. This causes just about anyone my age (30 and under) to not understand the progression of bolt sizes in SAE. If a 10mm bolt is too small, I'll grab at 11mm, or 12mm socket. But if a 5/16ths is too small I have no clue which size would be the next higher up, unless I have a toolchest where the sockets are in order.

Um, I think you were supposed to learn 'SAE' in Math class. In Elementary school. They are called fractions.

But I agree the 818 should be all Metric. Even if it were targeted at just USA, all Metric would still make sense (single set of tools). More so since it will be world-car.