Vantage Design Project

[Vman7]

Since I did not finish my design in time for the contest :( Some have said I should have just sent what I had done so far. But for me I like to complete things.

So I plan on finishing this design here.

[Vman7]

There is still a lot to be done. I am mostly going to work on the Coupe/Targa version. I'll give the specs., Template overlay, real parts used in the design.

Now understand that this is all done in Photoshop CS3, so it's going to take me a little longer, since I have to go back and forth between views to get the sizing acturate as possible.

Here is what I have so far.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2257&d=1307466482
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2253&d=1307466475
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2254&d=1307466477
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2256&d=1307466480
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2255&d=1307466478

[Oppenheimer]

looks finished to me...

[Vman7]

looks finished to me...

It's mostly the side view, and a lot of details that I really didn't get to finish, like the interior, seams on the body in the right places, roll bar on side view etc.

For me this contest was never about winning or getting money, it was about a design that works and figuring out the details as much as possible.

[Steve91T]

It's mostly the side view, and a lot of details that I really didn't get to finish, like the interior, seams on the body in the right places, roll bar on side view etc.

For me this contest was never about winning or getting money, it was about a design that works and figuring out the details as much as possible.

Those look nearly identical from last week when you could have submitted them. I understand it's about you making it perfect, but you could have submitted them and possibly seen your creation in real life, with tons of people drooling over it. I just don't understand why you didn't submit the design. FFR is going to tweak the design anyway.

It's a beautiful car, and you should be proud of it. It just seems like a waste.

Steve

[Vman7]

Those look nearly identical from last week when you could have submitted them. I understand it's about you making it perfect, but you could have submitted them and possibly seen your creation in real life, with tons of people drooling over it. I just don't understand why you didn't submit the design. FFR is going to tweak the design anyway.

It's a beautiful car, and you should be proud of it. It just seems like a waste.

Steve

Yeah, I have thought about that a lot lately since you posted that in the other thread, but what is done is done, I'll just have to live with it. Who knows maybe some of the design may be used, at this point know way of really knowing. I am happy just sending the time coming up with an idea.

[Steve91T]

Well, nothing wrong with that. Who knows, with the way Dave is talking, there may be more design competitions in the future. By then you'll have the perfect car to submit.

Steve

[Vman7]

Well, nothing wrong with that. Who knows, with the way Dave is talking, there may be more design competitions in the future. By then you'll have the perfect car to submit.

Steve

lol......yeah, I hope before the end of 2012.....you know the end of the world stuff and all.....lol

This way I can take my time as well and get away from it when I get stuck, plus come up with some other ideas as well. So as FFR comes out with a true chassis design that will help as well. There is also the interior design as well, not sure but I thought I read something about that being a possible contest in the future.

[Vman7]

Vantage Spec.s


Length Overall: 161.5"

Width: Front Fender- 70"/ Rear Fender- 72"

Height (Coupe Version): 46.75"

Wheelbase: 95"

Ground Clearance: 4.5"

Track: Front- 58.5" / Rear- 58.3"

Tires: Front 225/40-18 / Rear 255/35-18

Tires Opt. Front 235/40-18 / Rear 265/35-18, 275/35-18

Wheels: 18"

Interchangeable rear engine deck - Coupe/Targa version and Spyder Version (with possible quick top)
Interchangeable rear vent/Taillight/Lic. Plate area.

Side Mirrors to be decided still, a bunch of ways to go.


Note: Wheel Wells were designed around Tires: Front 225/40-18 / Rear 255/35-18


Real world Parts Used:

Hella Headlights - 90mm Halogen Low & High Beam Modules, HL68137 (low), HL68136 (high)
Hella Taillights - 3130 Series Agroluna
Front Turn Lamps - same ones used on the GTM

Miata 3rd Gen. Windshield tucked down in cowl area about 3"

Seats and ht. based on Corbeau Forza (upgrade) with 2" chassis frame on a 2.5" high seat bracket.
Corbeau Clubman would be the base seat.

[kach22i]

There is a famous architect who did not finish his architectural registration design exam, something like three or four years in a row. He would ink everything (back in the old days with hand drawing/drafting) and it had to be perfect or he would not turn it in.

More power to you.

[Vman7]

There is a famous architect who did not finish his architectural registration design exam, something like three or four years in a row. He would ink everything (back in the old days with hand drawing/drafting) and it had to be perfect or he would not turn it in.

More power to you.

hmm.....got me thinking about that one, since I originally started out to be an Architect, but just couldn't stand the 4yr.s of college, I am more of a hands on, straight to the point. Only person I can think that might be is Frank Lloyd Wright?

[kach22i]

hmm.....got me thinking about that one, since I originally started out to be an Architect, but just couldn't stand the 4yr.s of college, I am more of a hands on, straight to the point. Only person I can think that might be is Frank Lloyd Wright?

6-years, you need a Master's or a 5-year professional degree which nobody really does anymore.

Richard Meier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Meier

I've heard the Richard Meier story many times, guess the rumors have not been posted on the Internet yet, as I could find nothing about his exam days.

Stay out of architecture, low pay, long hours, and no respect from clients. The last four years have been brutal on architects, over half the people I know are underemployed or unemployed.

Michael Graves the father of the Post-Modern architecture movement of the 1980's - 1990's said at a lecture that he made more money from a single towel design for the Target Stores, than in his whole career as an architect. Think about that sometime.

[MDRex]

I wanted to be an architect when I was young, ended up in IT security. Now I want to be a towel designer.

[kach22i]

I wanted to be an architect when I was young, ended up in IT security. Now I want to be a towel designer.

Me too.

http://www.ralphlaurencarcollection.com/

[Vman7]

6-years, you need a Master's or a 5-year professional degree which nobody really does anymore.

Richard Meier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Meier

I've heard the Richard Meier story many times, guess the rumors have not been posted on the Internet yet, as I could find nothing about his exam days.

Stay out of architecture, low pay, long hours, and no respect from clients. The last four years have been brutal on architects, over half the people I know are underemployed or unemployed.

Michael Graves the father of the Post-Modern architecture movement of the 1980's - 1990's said at a lecture that he made more money from a single towel design for the Target Stores, than in his whole career as an architect. Think about that sometime.

It was the first 4yr.s of college I didn't like, mostly lib arts for the first 3yr.s. The last 2yr.s (masters part) I wouldn't have minded as much, and that was 30yr.s ago. I went a different route I went to a architectural drafting school in Phoenix in '79 which you did 4yr.s of drafting in 1yr, very intense, and I remember one of the teachers who owned his own firm saying that Architects don't hire architects, he was a architectual engineer. But then I went in another direction all together. I have had a lot of career changes over the years. Still don't really know what I would really like to do for a career, I have so interests it's not funny......lol. Been a Avoinics tech in the Navy back in the '80s. '90-mid 2000s a high end custom cabinet builder/designer/installer. As of pretty much 2008 I have been doing custom graphics (one of my true passions since I was a teen, old school mostly) for logos, auto/boat graphics.

[kach22i]

a architectural drafting school in Phoenix in '79

I took drafting and art classes all the way through High School (78). Worked in the steel mill to save money for college, started a 2-year architectural technology degree in community college in 81 after the big lay offs. Got the AS, worked my way through an undergrad degree (BS) in nine years, mostly night school. By the time I got to grad school I was old as some of my instructors and had more work experience. Put grad school on my credit card, worked some more - paid it off, took the exam, passed and as soon as I hit 40 started my own small architecture firm. Won an AIA Honor Award right off the bat (just regional) and now at 50 years old I'm wondering WTF happened to all of those grand plans I once had.

When the construction bubble hit no one wanted to hire me as an Architect, Industrial Designer or storyboard artist so I took one of my sketch book designs and built something special in my basement. The next couple of months could see a shift in career if the Investment Capitalist I met with last year like my progress. Time will tell, gotta have a dream, gotta have a goal, and one cannot live without hope of something better in the future.

[Cooluser23]

You should have submitted it, even when it's not completely done.

Remember school, even a partial answer to a question gives you partial credit. Much better than getting a "0" on the assignment..

[Vman7]

<kicking self in head for not entering

[Texan_GTM]

<kicking self in head for not entering
kicking self in head for vman kicking himself in the head for not entering.

[kach22i]

It would have been easier to add 8" to the wheelbase of the Vantage than to do what they now face (in my opinion).

On the up-side, he is free to market his design unchanged to other firms.

[Vman7]

It would have been easier to add 8" to the wheelbase of the Vantage than to do what they now face (in my opinion).

On the up-side, he is free to market his design unchanged to other firms.

Don't really need to add 8" to the wheelbase, it's already 95", see my spec.s above. :) Yeah, that's what I was saying before about FFR basicly having the rights if you send it in, but somebody said Dave Smith said in a email reply that they really wouldn't stop you if you what to.

[Vman7]

Not sure if I am going to get back to this or not, getting involved in too many others things as of late. This thread will probably just fade away.....

[Rockraven]

This is my favorite design out of everything I've seen.

[Bluewinters21]

I too love this design. If there were anything that I would nit-pick, it would be the inclusion under the door and the side profile tail lights that are different (and more to my taste) in your back view. I would also like to see the front nose clip in the side view. But all-in-all, I would so buy this car! It was one of my favorite designs during the contest… You really should have submitted it.

[Vman7]

This is my favorite design out of everything I've seen.


I too love this design. If there were anything that I would nit-pick, it would be the inclusion under the door and the side profile tail lights that are different (and more to my taste) in your back view. I would also like to see the front nose clip in the side view. But all-in-all, I would so buy this car! It was one of my favorite designs during the contest… You really should have submitted it.

Thanks for the compliments!

Bluewinters21, not sure what you actually mean about the inclusion under the door. The taillights profile as well as the front were not finished yet, hench why I didn't submit it. The taillights profile was mostly so I could setup the rear view, orig. I was going to have a clear lens over the taillight in the rear view, plus slats (2) in the vent area.

I think there is a little too much going on the side view now that the front and rear are done. I would probably keep the Top vent (engine intake vent), but take out the center slat, and rework the bottom area of the door to make it more streamlined.

[Tpa65cpe]

Wow!! Really nice design Vman7. Would have liked to see the front overhang from the side but the rest looks very nice!! My favoriute is the Olmos design but this one is #2 in my book especially if it was in a Targa Coupe!! Keep on drawing and finish this. I think it would definitly be a winner!!

[adesilva]

I really like the rear end, reminds me of the Audi R8 a bit

[Flamshackle]

nice front and rear shots v man... I really dislike the side profile however. could be improved i guess?

[Kalstar]

I agree, like yours the best. See a lot of the 308 in there.

[ICY WRX]

Vman this looks great!. I'd build it in a heartbeat and even prefer it over the other designs. Reminds me a bit of the Mclaren MP4 -12c

[shinn497]

We should start a petition to get this design built. It is way better than the others.

[3000gttom]

^^^ this does look better than the current 4 designs imo

[SccrMan13]

The side is still a bit busy but the front and back are awesome. Thats 2/3 of the way there. I wonder if there will be other companies that will make optional bodies.

[fiaroadster]

I'll sign that petition. By far the best design IMO

[wooward]

From the side it's too much like a Porsche Cayman. I do like that car and thus like this car but I wouldn't build it cause too many people would think it's a cayman.

[Flashburn]

The rear in the side-view doesn't match the rear in the rear view points?

[Flashburn]

Oh and I'd buy this :X

[skullandbones]

Pretty sexy from the front and rear (like the rear end the best). The roof line is quiet nice as well. Too bad you didn't make it into the contest. WEK.

Sidebar: Does anyone have a clue as to what design or hybid of one or more designs will come out of this. I think the answer is no but maybe I missed the clues along the way. Maybe Jim's grey hyrid design is one of the clues. After all, the GTM is a hybrid of many different iconic features. It's possible that the design might end up being from winners and other good ideas such as the one above. What's wrong with that?

[onyx_riddle]

I'll sign. This car needs nothing but to be made full size. I was reading about all the others and what they need to be perfect designs. I kept thinking about this one and how all it needs is to come out next year and be purchased by me. Im a newcomer so i dont actually know the HoF reference. But i did dream about this car, if that correlates.

[Oppenheimer]

HoF = Hair on Fire. The desired effect that the 818 should have on anyone that sees it.

This car reaches HoF ignition point for me, even as is. I would like to see a few tweaks, but I'd take it as is. I can't say the same for most of the models.

[Vman7]

Thanks for all the positive comments!:)

I am going to post this here in this thread and the 818 Project Updates From Dave thread as well.

First let me explain how the design came about. First I worked on the side view, except the rear and front parts on the side view. Then I worked on the rear, then the front. Once I got that done when I went back to the side I never got to finish the front and rear parts on the side view to reflect the front and rear views. As I looked at the over all view the side vents (mid section on bottom and vent behind door) just didn’t flow with the front and rear views. So I didn’t have time to change the side view mid section as well. If I remember right I think at this point I was down to less then a day before the deadline.

Now with all the comments of late, I am debating if I should at least finish the coupe version. The only thing is I really don’t want to work on it if it doesn’t have any influence on the people in the community and Dave Smith and FFR. It would just be a waste of time for me.

I did for a short time a day or so ago but the front and rear views in the 818 Sample Model 4 thread just as and idea, and Dave Smith posted a few times after that, but with nothing said about the front or rear views, so I took them out, not wanting to hi-jack the thread.

So not sure what I am going to do with my design at this point.

Again thanks for all the positive comments!

David

[Psay]

Vman your car is stunning, in particular the front and rear views.

This is definitely a HoF car and the type of design I hoped the 818 would end up as. I for one hope you make the refinements you feel it needs and Dave takes this forward and at the very least has it as one of the options. If that was the case I would have to buy two, this one and the Olmos car.

[David]

I just posted in the other thread. I think if the angle of the rear was a bit more vertical would be good, think of the current lambos. Something about the side isnt quite right to me. Maybe the wheels need to be closer to the corners etc, or there is too much overhang.

The area/arc just above the front area may be a bit high(maybe an inch in scale) compared to the rear. The black fill under the car is throwing me off as well.

Your front grafted on Jims design might be a winner... I think it matches Jims design pretty well as far as the shape goes. That or both the rear and front of yours on Jims car.

David

[Vman7]

I have been working on the side view for a few hours now, working on getting everything to flow together. I reworked the whole door/vent area. Once I get that all worked out I will get the front and rear on the side to reflect the front and rear views.

I have kind of another Idea for the headlights and front top vent to give it more of a "mean look"

[David]

BTW, you are an incredible artist using photoshop. :)

David

[Kalstar]

I'm I the only one a little mad that he did not enter this design. I know it is your creativity but it is our hard earned money that wants the very best look that our 15K will buy. I wish I had not seen this rendering because it makes all the others look sub-par. Find a way to get this car in real form with imput from the members of this site and maybe in the future FFR will make it a Gen2.

[kach22i]

Just an FYI: someone early on entered a very similar but hand drawn car also influenced by the Porsche 918. It was blue, and a lot of people in the forum liked it too.

Found one of them.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads18/halcyonbybt1299641464.jpg

[Oppenheimer]

Yes, I even confused these two at first. That blue one didn't win. So perhaps this one wouldn't have either. But I always understood Dave to have said the contest winner(s) weren't automatically what FFR would build. The contest and the 818 were seperate. Ideas and inspiriation yes, but not verbatim winner = 818.

So why can't some other contest entry (Scotty B, SW1, etc) or even a non-entry such as Vman, be what FFR builds as one of the 3 818 versions?

[onyx_riddle]

I think the demand for a build like vman's would be just too high. :)

Or maybe the molds would be too valuable and they would have to carry them around in an armored truck. Like Faberge' Eggs. Too much risk.

[crackedcornish]

Just an FYI: someone early on entered a very similar but hand drawn car also influenced by the Porsche 918. It was blue, and a lot of people in the forum liked it too.

Found one of them.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads18/halcyonbybt1299641464.jpg

I actually like this one a little more because of the clean side scoop design, but alas, I don't think FFR will build it, or anything that pays homage to Porsche (or any other make for that matter) for the 818. They want it to be there own design.

[Oppenheimer]

Yes, that is a very clean side view between the wheels. It also looks great despite not having a scoop on every available surface.

I agree we don't want to look like we ripped off someone elses car (it doesn't help that its currently called the 818), but these two sure have the HoF going on.

How much of the magic of these two is because they look like the 918, and how much is inherent in their design?

[crackedcornish]

Yes, that is a very clean side view between the wheels. It also looks great despite not having a scoop on every available surface.

I agree we don't want to look like we ripped off someone elses car (it doesn't help that its currently called the 818), but these two sure have the HoF going on.

How much of the magic of these two is because they look like the 918, and how much is inherent in their design?

honestly, before this contest started I didn't know what a 918 looked like, and had to Google it after someone mentioned similarities between it and some of the submissions...so I would have to say the sexy look is inherent to the swoopy and muscular design

ETA: Vman has posted in another thread that he has reworked the side of his car..haven't seen any pics of it yet though. But if his nose/targa rear were put with the side design of this one it would be very HoF time

[Vman7]

I am working on it as fast as I can.....lol. I Think people might just like what I come up with, at least I hope so :)

David

[crackedcornish]

I am working on it as fast as I can.....lol. I Think people might just like what I come up with, at least I hope so :)

David

as long as you're reworking the side can we please get a design that doesn't have the rear end sitting higher than the front? I don't care for the jacked up/wedge drag funny car look and like a car that looks like it's sitting level. I like the front and rear fenders to have the same amount of distance between the top of the fender and the top of the wheel arch.

[bromikl]

V - don't listen to crackedcornish! Your design could easily give Xabier a run for his money as is. Thankfully, it's not in the same category as O's or I might be torn between the two. :)

[VTX]

Just an FYI: someone early on entered a very similar but hand drawn car also influenced by the Porsche 918. It was blue, and a lot of people in the forum liked it too.

Found one of them.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads18/halcyonbybt1299641464.jpg

That's a great looking car. I would build that for sure.

[Flamshackle]

can we please get a design that doesn't have the rear end sitting higher than the front? I don't care for the jacked up/wedge drag funny car look and like a car that looks like it's sitting level.

:eek:
So youre saying that the 458 Italia/Lamborghini Merc and Mclaren F1 all have a jacked up/wedge drag funny car look? 5588 55905591

Its actually because these 818 designers have drawn some of their cues from the super car heavy hitters.
Its a classic 'super car/sports' look and all the winning entries in some way incorporated it (including Jims design).

I am keen to see what comes of v-mans reworkings.
I feel however this is all a little bit "to little to late".
The other cars are 10 steps ahead at least having been highly discussed, won the competition, been scaled, moulded and built (one by hand!). They are now being detailed judged and shown at Sema. The final tweaks before production.

Still show us what you got V-man! Love what you have done so far!

[bromikl]

I feel however this is all to little to late. The other cars are 10 steps ahead having been highly discussed, won the competition, been modeled and scaled and built some by hand! They are now being judged and shown and having final tweeks before production so really this whole discussion is a bit of a red herring.

Thankfully, Dave promised us more than one body style. Maybe not this year, maybe not next year, either. But with a big enough fan base, it could happen.

[crackedcornish]

:eek:
So youre saying that the 458 Italia/Lamborghini Merc and Mclaren F1 all have a jacked up/wedge drag funny car look? 5588 55905591

Its actually because these 818 designers have drawn some of their cues from the super car heavy hitters.
Its a classic 'super car/sports' look and all the winning entries in some way incorporated it (including Jims design).

I am keen to see what comes of v-mans reworkings.
I feel however this is all a little bit "to little to late".
The other cars are 10 steps ahead at least having been highly discussed, won the competition, been scaled, moulded and built (one by hand!). They are now being detailed judged and shown at Sema. The final tweaks before production.

Still show us what you got V-man! Love what you have done so far!

the silver one is not bad but it would look better to me if the rear was a touch lower...I just don't like the other two

as much as I would like to put the 818 in the same league as these cars you mentioned, it just ain't gonna' happen. those cars have much larger power trains that need the height, and top speeds that need the body to be shaped for down force to be stable at those obtainable speeds....neither of which the 818 will have or need

and since you think this is just a styling exercise what harm will it do? I'm not suggesting we change a car that's in production...as this is still just a drawing.

I unfortunately feel that FFR won't build it (no matter how sexy it is) just because it is heavily influenced by a Porsche design...(I hope I'm wrong on this!)

[adesilva]

That's a great looking car. I would build that for sure.

This one looks like a cross between the 918 and the new chargers (Taillights) I think it looks really nice though. I know I would build that. I personally think this is the nicest design that I have seen so far

[David]

I actually like this one a little more because of the clean side scoop design, but alas, I don't think FFR will build it, or anything that pays homage to Porsche (or any other make for that matter) for the 818. They want it to be there own design.

I like it very much as well. I like the side of that one much better

[Vman7]

I really wish people wouldn't hi-jack this thread, it makes it confusing for people to stay on what the thread is about. Talking about the Halcyon 918 look alike (the light blue one).

When I get to a "sneak peek" side view, I will show it with the 918, and you will see the difference.

David

[Sultan]

Love this car!

[kach22i]

I really wish people wouldn't hi-jack this thread, it makes it confusing for people to stay on what the thread is about. Talking about the Halcyon 918 look alike (the light blue one).

When I get to a "sneak peek" side view, I will show it with the 918, and you will see the difference.

David
Sorry, I did that..............thought it was on topic at the time.

[Vman7]

Sorry, I did that..............thought it was on topic at the time.

No problem, I now how at times we can get caught up in our enthusiasm.

[Vman7]

Ok here is a mock up of the new Headlights, to give it more of a "mean" look.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5614&d=1319821894

5614

[Vman7]

Here is the new Vantage side view (center one), this is just a "mock up". There is still a bunch of shading etc. to do on it.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5623&d=1319833973
5623

Here is the rear view again (coupe version)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2254&d=1307466477

[Steve91T]

I absolutely love the coupe.

[olpro]

I think you're really hurting your case visually with that wheel tire combination. A low profile tire and larger rim would look much better and be very easy to do.
On the other hand, I definitely respect your adherence to the template.

[Vman7]

I think you're really hurting your case visually with that wheel tire combination. A low profile tire and larger rim would look much better and be very easy to do.
On the other hand, I definitely respect your adherence to the template.

I am not real happy with that tire/wheel combo either, it was more of a last minute thing during the contest. I might just change them to something better.

[Oppenheimer]

OK, that has my hair (what little is left) all ablaze. Its just amazing. The changes to the side view results in something that has retro touches, yet is still very modern.

[onyx_riddle]

Awesome!! Hair is ablaze!

[JRL]

Superb...........a real shame you didn't meet the deadline.

[3000gttom]

wow thats even better... hair is already burnt off from the original pics though

[David]

:eek:
So youre saying that the 458 Italia/Lamborghini Merc and Mclaren F1 all have a jacked up/wedge drag funny car look? 5588 55905591

Its actually because these 818 designers have drawn some of their cues from the super car heavy hitters.
Its a classic 'super car/sports' look and all the winning entries in some way incorporated it (including Jims design).

I am keen to see what comes of v-mans reworkings.
I feel however this is all a little bit "to little to late".
The other cars are 10 steps ahead at least having been highly discussed, won the competition, been scaled, moulded and built (one by hand!). They are now being detailed judged and shown at Sema. The final tweaks before production.

Still show us what you got V-man! Love what you have done so far!

Agreed... The car must have some rake to look correct. You gave some perfect examples. David

[David]

New design (side). Is much much better! Nice job man!

No reason that FFR couldn't use this... If you could get it I'm 3d it would be much easier!

[305mouse]

Don't change the wheel setup. It'll give a true representation of what donor wheels will look like with the higher sidewall. Yes, low profile will look better, but I would keep it as real as possible. I really like how this has come together.

[slopoke]

I'd buy one in a New York minute! Outstanding!!! ... love the coupe ...

[Twinspool]

5632

[Gary in NJ]

Yeah, I do like this car a lot. Unfortunately we're just pissing up a rope here. The rules of the contest were established and it is now over. It would be unfair to select a "new" winner. Each of the four designs currently in the running represent a significant investment by FFR.

But Vantage 818 is the most mature of all of the submissions.

[Steve91T]

Let's say they could build it, is it too close to the 918? I love the car, but that's one thing that I think would cause problems.

Steve

[bromikl]

Yeah, I do like this car a lot. Unfortunately we're just pissing up a rope here. The rules of the contest were established and it is now over. It would be unfair to select a "new" winner. Each of the four designs currently in the running represent a significant investment by FFR.

But Vantage 818 is the most mature of all of the submissions.

I say again, FFR can build any model they want. Even if it wasn't submitted for the contest. In addition they are under no obligation to build any of the contest winners.

[Flamshackle]

I really like your work now V-man! I think this has an amazing and true low slung mid engine front end look. Can you team up with anyone to show it in 3D? Amazing work though and it looks ace as now IMO :~)

PS keep true scale wheels. We all know how big low profile wheels make cars look ace but these are a good start point if FFR get excited by it.

[Vman7]

New design (side). Is much much better! Nice job man!

No reason that FFR couldn't use this... If you could get it I'm 3d it would be much easier!


I really like your work now V-man! I think this has an amazing and true low slung mid engine front end look. Can you team up with anyone to show it in 3D? Amazing work though and it looks ace as now IMO :~)

PS keep true scale wheels. We all know how big low profile wheels make cars look ace but these are a good start point if FFR get excited by it.

If someone would like to do it in a 3D Cad program that would be great! I would most likely have to do a 2D drafting style drawings for that person to use as a template, since that would help make it more accurate. Originally I was going to do the design that way, but I thought not to many people would think much of it.

I think I will stay with the tire/wheel size, which in the thread I talk about the sizes, just might change the wheel look, since the ones right now are not that great looking.

David

[olpro]

On the wheels & tires, you might look at what the other "official" models have done.
It is one thing (and a good thing) to have dealt with reality but if the other guys are showing the big stuff - and you aren't - then you will be at a huge disadvantage. At a certain point this becomes a beauty contest and no one is listening about whether one of the girls might have stuffed some kleenix in her bra - they will just be drooling at her.

[Vman7]

On the wheels & tires, you might look at what the other "official" models have done.
It is one thing (and a good thing) to have dealt with reality but if the other guys are showing the big stuff - and you aren't - then you will be at a huge disadvantage. At a certain point this becomes a beauty contest and no one is listening about whether one of the girls might have stuffed some kleenix in her bra - they will just be drooling at her.

LOL @ the kleenix part. I was looking at the tires and wheel on the new GTM, I was thinking about using them, I would have to resize them of course and they won't be accuarte, but that is ok. I would keep the tire dia. though, other wise I would have to get into reshaping the wheel wells again.

[Vman7]

I doubt if this design would have much chance against the 4 models in the sense of a spyder version, but I think it might be in the running for a coupe/targa version. The spyder version of mine is ok, but it really doesn't look as good as the coupe version.

Since Dave Smith said they are mostly focusing on the Roadster (spyder) version right now, and that a coupe might be in the future.

David

[olpro]

I just looked at the pix of the four models on the other thread. It looks like Jim's model has a similar wheel-tire size as your side view rendering but the other three are definitely showing LOW profile tires and larger rims. Keeping the overall tire diameter is logical.

It occurs to me that Jim's model would also benefit from this discussion.

[Ks2]

with 2 exhaust outlets on either end of the motor the NA motors could (albiet loudly) support those side exhausts of the porsche

back on topic... this was one of only a handful of designs i liked better then xabiers... and is the only other design i would truly consider buying

dave mentioned this project to be a swatch watch type car... perhaps with interchangeable bodies this can be made as a shell and released sometime later

[Vman7]

Vantage 2.0 side view progress. I redid the area between the wheels, doorline down and rear upper fender, added fuel door, side mirror and new wheels.

Now back to working on the front and rear areas on the side and details.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5659&d=1320009832
5659

[adesilva]

That looks awesome, great job Vman

[Flamshackle]

That looks stunning! any chance of a 3D render? maybe talk to Rodney and ask how he did his?

[fritts]

HOF for me as well...

[adesilva]

Looks like a sexier version of the Porsche Cayman to me. The only problem could be the fact that it certainly does like like a Porsche from the side/front and that could be something that FF may want to avoid (considering they are wanting a totally original design)

This design looks gorgeous though and it is one of the few that really gets me excited. I think that the first place design also has that kind of potential if it gets more detail put into it.

I am very excited to see how you finalize this design and hope that Dave and others at FF are taking notice and at least considering taking cues from this design. The fact that we are expecting multiple bodies could help this design come to fruition in one way or another.

[3000gttom]

i bet if u changed the color, you'd get significantly less comparisons to porsches

[Vman7]

I think if I would have never said since the start (back when the contest started) and showed pics of the 918, most would not have said anything about looking like a porsche. The rear in no way looks like any porsche. only thing on the front that looks like a porsche is the 1st version headlights. From the side view the front looks more in the style of Ferrari and the mid section back reminds me of a mustang for some crazy reason.

But hey that's just how I see it :)

If look hard enough at any design you can find elements from other designs.

Bottom line is does the design flow and give you the "WOW" factor and make heads turn and perform.

David

[adesilva]

You make a very valid point, in the end the only thing that matters is the fact that looking at this car does develop the WOW factor (at least for me)

[Rockraven]

Vman, I LOVE it. If Porsche or Lotus designed this and sold it for $75,000, i'd still love it. I hope you have Dave and Jim's attention...

[bbjones121]

I like the new design a lot. My heart is being torn all over the place. It does remind me of the Cayman a lot though. I definitely do not want someone calling it a Porsche.

[3000gttom]

it would be cool if the subaru headlight assembly could be shown with this design as that could be a likely solution in the real car, just to see how it might look

i wouldnt want it to ruin the look of the car though

[adesilva]

Considering they are planning on using the 02-07 wrx as the single donor I dont think they will be reusing the headlights. If that were the case they would need to be more specific because in those years they had different headlights in i believe 02-05 and 06-07

[Psay]

To me the side profile screams 'American muscle car', the front has the the beautiful flowing lines of a European supercar and the rear is totally unique. A strange combination but it works and looks absolutely stunning.

Other than the colour I do not see Porsche in this car at all. As 3000ggtom states 'i bet if u changed the color, you'd get significantly less comparisons to porsches'.

[16g-95gsx]

Truly stunning, perhaps one of the only cars that I can't pick out a single thing I'd change. Works as a roadster, works as a targa, works as a coupe, and it looks properly proportional. It also looks sexy from EVERY angle, not just one or two, plus it incorporates what I feel is the much needed hood vent for the radiator. Great job, Dave please take note.

[Vman7]

I think I better start a new thread.......something like Vantage Design 2.0 or something.

Too many people are getting the old side view (done during the Contest) with the new side confused.

And get rid of the old reference to the Porsche 918, I think if that was never shown or mentioned most wouldn't bring it up as much.

People really need to read posts better and not read into them.

David

[kach22i]

I think I better start a new thread.......something like Vantage Design 2.0 or something.

Too many people are getting the old side view (done during the Contest) with the new side confused.

And get rid of the old reference to the Porsche 918, I think if that was never shown or mentioned most wouldn't bring it up as much.

People really need to read posts better and not read into them.

David

David/Vman7, I think you have done a commendable job of making this design your own. I regret if some took or will take comparisons in a negative way. However any attempt to make such discussion taboo are pointless as people will be people, you have no control over their thoughts, right or wrong. Start a new thread if you feel you must, I will not post comparables or outdated designs there.

I am not posting 918 images, I am providing below links to some overlay studies I've done. These studies in my opinion prove what a skillful and artful job you have done in taking some profile elements and making them fit the FFR template. In fact combined with the rear which I love, you have your own design, one in all honestly actually does pay homage to the 918 (but is not a knock off or copy).

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Overlay-VantageSide.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Overlay-Vantageand918.jpg

Cheers, George/kach22i

[Vman7]

David/Vman7, I think you have done a commendable job of making this design your own. I regret if some took or will take comparisons in a negative way. However any attempt to make such discussion taboo are pointless as people will be people, you have no control over their thoughts, right or wrong. Start a new thread if you feel you must, I will not post comparables or outdated designs there.

I am not posting 918 images, I am providing below links to some overlay studies I've done. These studies in my opinion prove what a skillful and artful job you have done in taking some profile elements and making them fit the FFR template. In fact combined with the rear which I love, you have your own design, one in all honestly actually does pay homage to the 918 (but is not a knock off or copy).

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Overlay-VantageSide.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Overlay-Vantageand918.jpg

Cheers, George/kach22i

Thanks George :) Those are good overlays. I did one of the 918 and Vantage a long time ago, but I think I removed it or replaced it.

For right now I removed the 918/new vantage "mock up"/vantage with 818 overlay, until I take out the 918 of that pic.

Once I get a little more done on the side view and finish off the new headlights, I will start a new thread.

Now whether Dave Simth and FFR consider this design or not, that's up to them, and if not that's fine, I still have it in my Portfolio.

David

[bbjones121]

I definitely do not mind it looking like the 918. Most people wouldn't know that is a Porsche. It is the Cayman I don't want people thinking that it is.

[16g-95gsx]

Vman, are you readily able to change the colors? Id love to see it in black, yellow, and red just to change it up from the grey shown.

[Vman7]

Vman, are you readily able to change the colors? Id love to see it in black, yellow, and red just to change it up from the grey shown.

It is easier to work in grey when it comes to doing all the blending, shading etc., but I can change the color later. To do the color right you don't just do an overlay in photoshop, hard to explain, but its more work then just doing an overlay.

David

[apexanimal]

could you try not having the bottom of the rear bumper area sweep up?

instead maybe leave the bottom straight or at less of an incline? just seems like the entire thing has it's little butt up in the air...

[Vman7]

could you try not having the bottom of the rear bumper area sweep up?

instead maybe leave the bottom straight or at less of an incline? just seems like the entire thing has it's little butt up in the air...

I did that originally, but it made the rear from the side view have a big butt....lol, Once I get the diffuser in there, from the side view it will bring that look down.

Just measured the ht. of the rear "so called rear bumper"...17.25"

[apexanimal]

^ noted...

the diffuser should help that look... nice work

[GUNS]

Ok here is a mock up of the new Headlights, to give it more of a "mean" look.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5614&d=1319821894

5614

http://www.carbodydesign.com/archive/2010/03/porsche-918-spyder/Porsche-918-Spyder-4-lg.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/35jf67r.jpg

http://www.carbodydesign.com/archive/2010/03/porsche-918-spyder/Porsche-918-Spyder-6-lg.jpg
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2254&d=1307466477

Vman, I just still can't get over the resemblance of your design to the porche 918 and porche carerra gt. Even with the re-designed headlights I still see it. In fact I showed your pic to my wife and her response was "looks like a porche." I think we really need some more angles of this thing to get a good feel for it.

I think that part of the problem is that we know you took the 918 and tweaked it to come up with a different design. I know a lot of designs borrow elements from other cars, but for some reason it kind of bothers me when you take an existing design to start out with, alter it, and call it your own.

I'm in no way trying to slam you because you are far more talented than I am and I actually like your design, I just can't get past the above observations. I say keep at it and provide us with more angles if you can.

[Vman7]

[QUOTE=GUNS;39150 Vman, I just still can't get over the resemblance of your design to the porche 918 and porche carerra gt. Even with the re-designed headlights I still see it. In fact I showed your pic to my wife and her response was "looks like a porche." I think we really need some more angles of this thing to get a good feel for it.

I think that part of the problem is that we know you took the 918 and tweaked it to come up with a different design. I know a lot of designs borrow elements from other cars, but for some reason it kind of bothers me when you take an existing design to start out with, alter it, and call it your own.

I'm in no way trying to slam you because you are far more talented than I am and I actually like your design, I just can't get past the above observations. I say keep at it and provide us with more angles if you can.[/QUOTE]

First off from the very start when the contest started that I was using the 918 as a base. I never called it my own, ever!
I think of it as a redefined version of the 918.

I am not going to get in a pissing contest over this. People need to drop the 918 crap! either you like my design or not.

This is why I dropped finishing off the design after the contest ended. Only until Dave smith came out on Jim's design, did I suggest my front and rear views as a possible different way to go. Then somebody bought my Vantage thread up to the top. I didn't have any intentions to even consider reintroducing the design until more people started talking more about it again.

So for right now, I am just backing off.

I like constructive criticism :)

David

[kach22i]

First off from the very start when the contest started that I was using the 918 as a base. I never called it my own, ever!
I think of it as a redefined version of the 918.

I understand this method, started a few of my own with a new Lancia Stratos study and new Fiat X-1/9 study. One major reason I never put more effort into them was exactly the type of backlash Vman7/David is going through. First you have to deal with it yourself, and fight your own ego and demons, then you have to fend off others. In the end, it just may not worth it.

I see many student level designers (on-line) doing their own Mustang, Lotus, Ferrari or Porsche as inspiration and trying to capture that marques essence as part of a learning process. I think it may even be part of some instructor's assignments. In architecture school one teacher had his students design a home as if they were Frank Lloyd Wright, and thereby learn his means, methods and thinking along the way. Nothing wrong with that, as long a the salute is made somehow.

David has saluted the 918 and the R8 giving proper footnotes as it were. I think the stance of the cars mentioned has been captured, and not a lot more has been left though the refinement process. Although some 3D views are needed to confirm.

If you want to see which car David's closely matches, look no further than the overlay I did with X's car. They are both guilty of trying to follow the FFR template. Guilt of this type should be worn with pride, it was a challenging template to say the least.

Link:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Overlay-VantageandX.jpg

[GUNS]

First off from the very start when the contest started that I was using the 918 as a base. I never called it my own, ever!
I think of it as a redefined version of the 918.

I am not going to get in a pissing contest over this. People need to drop the 918 crap! either you like my design or not.

David

I know you've never hidden the fact that you used the 918 as a template and I applaud you for that. But that is where the problem is. I just can't see FFR justifying using an unoriginal design. Vman, I hope you don't think I'm attacking you here. I just want to highlight the implications of using this design. I actually love the way your design looks, I just can't support the way it was conceived.

Thanks for the time you have put into this. I can't imagine the effort it must take to do something like this. If nothing else, your design has shown the demand to branch out to designs other than the 4 chosen.

[kach22i]

unoriginal design
If I were to list all of the cars which are guilty of Copy & Paste or strong influences by existing automobiles, it would quite a long list.

I have seen in many of the top designs for example a strong Lotus and Ferrari influence, most often the designs going astray only where the designer tried to be "original"

It's not easy, cut them all some slack, this was a contest open to non-professionals.

[GUNS]

If I were to list all of the cars which are guilty of Copy & Paste or strong influences by existing automobiles, it would quite a long list.

I have seen in many of the top designs for example a strong Lotus and Ferrari influence, most often the designs going astray only where the designer tried to be "original"

It's not easy, cut them all some slack, this was a contest open to non-professionals.

I'm fully aware of this and even mentioned that most car designs barrow elements from other cars, and that's OK to a certain extent. I've been truly blown away with the talent on this forum, but this is getting to serious point in development and I think everything needs to be addressed, good and bad.

[slopoke]

Somebody start the petition ... I'll sign it too! Hang in there Vman, it's time to rally the troops!

[Best of the best]

I'm sorry to say this but....it looks like a knockoff of the Porsche. I don't think FFR want a car that is advertising for another brand by changing just the grilles, vents, diffuser, and head/tail lights. JMHO.

[Twinspool]

It's drop dead, hair on fire gorgeous. I don't care what it might allegedly have some related similarity to. This design rocks.

[bbjones121]

Like I said before, I don't mind if it reminds people of a 918. Nobody,almost, will ever see that car and few people would even know what it was. I think it is a nice car, but i don't want it to look like a Cayman at all.

[305mouse]

It is a great design. You can see the Porsche front end, that isn't a bad thing. I do not see the resemblance in the rear at all. With the height and the way the rear quarter is designed, that dictates the shape of the rear. The only thing that looks like it could have been pulled from the 918 is the vent in the middle and we're going to need something there due to the TMIC. I love where the exhaust exits. It reminds me of the Gemballa Boxster rear. No matter what, your design is impressive. I could see where FF might have an issue with the front because it does look like that 918. And I mean that in a legal way. Say they release this design, do you think Porsche would take legal actions? I would build your car in a heartbeat. HoF

[Oppenheimer]

FFR might be gun-shy what with the whole C-car legal thing they went through. Other than that, the Kach overlay shows the Vantage bears as much resemblence (in profile) to the Xabier as it does to the 918.

That someone that is not a car person thinks its P-car is not really relevant. Many non-car people that see an S2000 think its a P-car (or a Miata). If it looks exotic, it will be mistaken for a P-car or an F-car, since that is all most people know about.

[STI4WRC]

Vman, Don't give up. I'm counting on your design to be my next car. We just have to convince the powers to be to produce it.

[adesilva]

Vman, Don't give up. I'm counting on your design to be my next car. We just have to convince the powers to be to produce it.

Agreed, at the very least if we are going to end up with Jims design I hope they take as much from the Vantage and incorporate it into the design as possible. Model 4 is just so bland that I cant imagine putting 100's of hours into making it.. It reminds me too much of an S2000

[riptide motorsport]

Yes Vman, I woud build yours in a heartbeat, its quite possibly my favorite design. Even over Xabiers it has real world full size dimensions that will tranlate very well.Steven

[Vman7]

Thanks everybody! :)

Keep get sidetracked helping others and doing graphic side jobs.

Most people here think I am some kind of hack anyways and don't take anything I do really serously anyways, except a few that post.

But I don't really care, I know what I can do and not do, and I am ok with that.

David

[NoSkillz]

FFR might be gun-shy what with the whole C-car legal thing they went through. Other than that, the Kach overlay shows the Vantage bears as much resemblence (in profile) to the Xabier as it does to the 918.

That someone that is not a car person thinks its P-car is not really relevant. Many non-car people that see an S2000 think its a P-car (or a Miata). If it looks exotic, it will be mistaken for a P-car or an F-car, since that is all most people know about.

Happens so much(s2000) it can be aggravating.

[Steve91T]

Thanks everybody! :)

Keep get sidetracked helping others and doing graphic side jobs.

Most people here think I am some kind of hack anyways and don't take anything I do really serously anyways, except a few that post.

But I don't really care, I know what I can do and not do, and I am ok with that.

David

Nobody has said that. Just implying that it wasn't unique enough for them and most likely legal reasons.

[jayguy]

I love the design, and am waiting to sign the petition myself.

[Vman7]

I finished up the rear area and added the diffuser on the side view.

Not sure when I am going to get back to finishing up the front area on the side view or the headlights on the front view.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5789&d=1320364996

5789

Here are the front and rear view as of right now, just to get an overall idea of what is going on.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5614&d=1319821894
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2254&d=1307466477
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2253&d=1307466475

[Rockraven]

Love it. I hope Dave is paying attention to all the enthusiasm for this design.

[Kalstar]

Bit of advise, Please change the color! The color is lending the car to look to much like a 918 meets a Carrara GT. Factory Five will not going to risk a lawsuit from a heavy pocket manufacturer or invest in Modeling if they think it looks to close to cause a problem.

I think it will be much better received if the color is not the same as the new 918.

BTW..... Real big fan!

[bbjones121]

The side view just screams Porsche. Test it out. Print the picture off and go ask people what car they think it is don't offer any comments before they remark. I will try this out around work and report back.

[vozproto]

The color is lending the car to look to much like a 918 meets a Carrara GT. Factory Five will not going to risk a lawsuit from a heavy pocket manufacturer or invest in Modeling if they think it looks to close to cause a problem.

I think it will be much better received if the color is not the same as the new 918.

BTW..... Real big fan!

What? Its an 818. It's at least 100 units different than the 918. :P

[kach22i]

I think that when the Vantage front 3/4 view is done, it will look very little like a Porsche of any kind.

This is a 918.
5795

[305mouse]

A normal consumer would never mistake that side view for a Porsche. Maybe an Aston or Maserati if they knew what that looked like.

[Oppenheimer]

Unless the person is a 'car-guy', anything that looks exotic, ask them what it is, there is only two possible answers, Porsche or Ferrari. So their answer would just come down to which one of those two its closer to.

I don't see how that gives us any useful data.

[BipDBo]

It looks like a Porsche 918 because it's a photoshop exercise that started with a 918. The original profie shot of the 918 been greatly modified and has had some elements taken from Audi, and who knows what else, but some of the features, curves, shadows and reflections remain identical to the original 918 profile shot. The Porshe 918 has a wheelbase of 104", nine inches longer than the 818. The 918 is also probably wider and shorter. If this design exercise were translated into 3-d, and put right next to a model of a 918, I think that they would look very different.

[bbjones121]

I think we are becoming desensitized to what we think peoples' preception of this will be. Take a couple samples around and see. Shawn's, this one, the four models and report back honestly about what people say. We stare and analyze these designs and rationalize why it does not look like another car, but most people you drive past will only have a quick glance. They will either stare in question or quickly turn around deciding it is a Porsche, Ferrari, Lotus, etc. In particular, I don't think the winning design, O's, or Shawn's designs would seed a connection to an existing vehicle on the road, as I feel this would. Only real world evaluations could prove that I guess.

[Grantourer]

I showed all the 818 designs to a few co-workers but did not ask what current manufacturer they thought the car came from. 3 out of 4 picked the Vantage as their #1.

[Vman7]

I showed all the 818 designs to a few co-workers but did not ask what current manufacturer they thought the car came from. 3 out of 4 picked the Vantage as their #1.

Thanks :) that's a good thing to know :)

One thing I would like to say right now up front, I am paying attention to Rodney's car right now, and I think his car with a few refinements here and there and getting it to more "real world". I think Rodney's just may be a real winner. Since Rodney has used 3D he can pretty much give the files to Dave Smith and FFR to build a real good 1/4 scale and real full size model from. Just giving credit where credit is due. I still like Xabier's as well. The other ones are ok design wise, but as far as there skill level in design, out standing! I wish I had there skills at 3D Cad.

David

[Flamshackle]

I showed all the 818 designs to a few co-workers but did not ask what current manufacturer they thought the car came from. 3 out of 4 picked the Vantage as their #1.

What images did you use to show them? The ones of the 1/4 scale models ripped from the cruddy video?

To be legit we need to at the VERY least see this design in 3d then we can compare it to the others 3d images.

As much as I like these 2d shots and the design possibilities IMHO this is still a waste of time and pointless to compare to non detailed scale models.

Come on v-man! Find a way/ any way! Of making this a 3d render so the design has some potential to continue to move forward.

Ps I also asked people what design they liked most and overwhelmingly it's been Xabiers red street car. I used the design images not the useless scale model pics. So much so that when I showed some people the scale model pics a few of them didn't recognize them from the previous design concepts.

[Psay]

I showed all the 818 designs to a few co-workers but did not ask what current manufacturer they thought the car came from. 3 out of 4 picked the Vantage as their #1.

I gave a presentation to about 80 colleagues on Friday (automotive design engineers) regarding a new car we are working on. At the end of the presentation I showed them the different designs for the 818 (not the photographs of the 1/4 scale models) and got a show of hands on which ones they liked. Rodneys new orange design was clearly the most popular with the Vantage and Whetstone getting an equal showing. The rest got a muted response. I stated they could only vote for one design.

I realise this is still early stages and all the designs can change as Rodney has shown us, but I just took the opportunity to get the opinion of 80 professional car designers.

[bbjones121]

9 out of 11 people said this was a Porsche. I haven't asked which they liked better, I will do that next week.

Something about it just reminds me of a Cayman when I first look at it. Here is the side view of a Cayman.

5808

But after staring at it longer, it reminds me more of a Ferrari with the more forward sitting position.

5809
5813

The back end looks like a photoshop of the Audi R8.

5810
5812

The front end looks most like the Porsche 918, but I don't need to repost those images. It also looks very very similar to a Lotus Evora.

5811



If this was not silver, that would have been a better starting point.

[bbjones121]

I think that when the Vantage front 3/4 view is done, it will look very little like a Porsche of any kind.


I look forward to seeing it.

[Vman7]

9 out of 11 people said this was a Porsche. I haven't asked which they liked better, I will do that next week.

Something about it just reminds me of a Cayman when I first look at it. Here is the side view of a Cayman.

5808

But after staring at it longer, it reminds me more of a Ferrari with the more forward sitting position.

5809
5813

The back end looks like a photoshop of the Audi R8.

5810
5812

The front end looks most like the Porsche 918, but I don't need to repost those images. It also looks very very similar to a Lotus Evora.

5811



If this was not silver, that would have been a better starting point.

Gee weezzzzz........where do I start with this one. Do I have to do an education again......

Far as I can tell there are only two other people here other then my self, Oldpro, Kach22i that really understand perspective drawings, shading, lighting sources etc., there are probably some others as well. How many here actually undetstand the difference between a 2 point perspective and a 3 point perspective, can actually do shading and shadows without using a 3D Cad program that does it for you.

There is no cayman, ferrari, lotus in this car. Yes the rear was "Based on R8" but it was all done by hand, including the screen mesh, the only thing that was taken from a photo was the lights) the fenders are reshaped from the 918. The rear deck lid (rear view) was formed from my top, rear views (point to point rendering) was all done by hand.

I think a lot of people don't understand just how much work has to go into all the shading, shine etc.

Working in a grey color is best, until finished, then you can change the color, but not by just doing a overlay, you have to use curves in photoshope plus a bunch of other things to get the color just right without losing the shine.

As far as a 3 point perspective view (what some call a 3/4 view, seeing the side and rear for example) takes a lot of work and time to do it justice. The views I have done are all 2 point perspectives. ask Oldpro he probably more then anybody knows that he is old school like me. Have to remember I was doing a lot of stuff in 3D long before there was computer programs.

All my drawings are 3D, just because it was done in a 3D cad program and only showing say a side view, rear view etc. doesn't make it 2D. 2D drawing for the most part don't have any depth, where as a 3D drawing is a perspective showing depth.

So before people start going off and making assumptions on how something was done or what it was taken from, one should really understand just how everything is done.

Now this isn't a bash on anybody, but I know some are going to take it that way. It's about reflecting on how people conceive their idea. People have different mediums they use to achieve their ideas, mine just for right now is using what I know in Photoshop and even that is very limited.

I could go on and on about all the shading and what parts of the car were all created by hand.
David

[bbjones121]

There is no educating that you need to do. I understand the shading that is required. Others that submitted colored cars didn't seem to make a big deal about it though.

I never accused you of using those cars. I apologize if you think so. Some people use a mouse in photoshop, others use a pencil and draw, a tool is the artists choice. There is nothing wrong with one or the other. 9 out of 11 people that I work with that are not "into" cars thought it was a Porsche.

I can't wait for some perspective views!

[bbjones121]

(edit that)
It didn't take too much time to do this with Photoshop elements. I can do it to the other images tomorrow or later tonight if you want.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-2cTj6V-qFdI/TrW_LejCRFI/AAAAAAAAEeY/qv67wg0trlQ/s800/Vantage%2BSide%2B2%2Bblue.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fWNwf_FMlns/TrXF86-zJ4I/AAAAAAAAEew/lgvgX9khG9g/s800/Vantage%2BSpyder%2BFront%2BB%2Bblue.jpg

[Vman7]

There is no educating that you need to do. I understand the shading that is required. Others that submitted colored cars didn't seem to make a big deal about it though.

I never accused you of using those cars. I apologize if you think so. Some people use a mouse in photoshop, others use a pencil and draw, a tool is the artists choice. There is nothing wrong with one or the other. 9 out of 11 people that I work with that are not "into" cars thought it was a Porsche.

I can't wait for some perspective views!

I know you didn't accused me of anything, I was pointing out that what cars you did post, it wasn't based on (cayman, ferrari, lotus).

All the views you see are perspectives, they are just 2 point perspectives. You are talking about seeing a 3 point perspective :) That's why I wish I knew more complex 3D Cad programs, it would save me a lot of time. I have a few 3D programs, but they are more for cabinetry, homes, woodworking. Even if I did use something say like Blender, by the time I could get to the point of understanding the software and create a really good model, FFR would have a real car build......lol


(edit that)
Coloring is not that difficult. I just learned how to do this in 10 minutes and it took me 5 minutes to do it.



I know it's not, it just better to do once you have it all done. BTW doesn't look too bad in that blue. I played around with some red back when it was the old side view.

David

[bbjones121]

front view added in blue above. Blue looks pretty sweet.

[bbjones121]

got to go to dinner with the wife. let me know if you want me to do the other views later or I can remove them altogether until you are done. It seems like you are pretty done though, right, or is mod 3.0 coming soon?

[bbjones121]

What about a top view?

[Vman7]

(edit that)
It didn't take too much time to do this with Photoshop elements. I can do it to the other images tomorrow or later tonight if you want.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-2cTj6V-qFdI/TrW_LejCRFI/AAAAAAAAEeY/qv67wg0trlQ/s800/Vantage%2BSide%2B2%2Bblue.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fWNwf_FMlns/TrXF86-zJ4I/AAAAAAAAEew/lgvgX9khG9g/s800/Vantage%2BSpyder%2BFront%2BB%2Bblue.jpg

Ok I see you edited that post....lol, now I have to edited my last post in reply to it.......lol, just kidding. It didn't come accross as sarcastic, I knew what you meant. It is easy once you know how to do it. :)

I use Photoshop CS3 (on my 3rd version since 1999). Yeah you could do that if you want, but you might want to wait until I finish all the details on the side, and front (new headlight) views, that way you are not doing it over and over again. BTW the orig.s are in 1"=1' scale and 300 res.

[Vman7]

got to go to dinner with the wife. let me know if you want me to do the other views later or I can remove them altogether until you are done. It seems like you are pretty done though, right, or is mod 3.0 coming soon?

Pretty much done, just details here and there, but I could always do more I guess, depends on input I guess, as long as it not like a major change.


What about a top view?

I have somewhat of a top view, but it is mostly just a line drawing based on the 918 and extremely modified, to use a point to point reference for the other views.

That blue isn't all that bad, for me I like the really dark blues on sports cars. Only problem with really dark colors like blue and really black is you lose a lot of detail which can be seen easier in say greys, and lighter color. But that blue does work.

Originally I envisioned the car in a deep charcoal grey or deep wine red.

[Vman7]

BTW is there anything anybody would like see, change (within reason)?

I also have a spyder version of the side just not complete to the new version. If most have probably noticed the front view and one the the rear views is of the spyder version. The only reason I did the front view in the spyder was it was a lot easier to do then bothering with all the targa coupe stuff, since you really don't see much of it anyways in that view.

David

[Vman7]

These are the Targa and Spyder side view "mock ups", still need details and some adjusting with the spyder humps.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5815&d=1320537373
5815

Way back I mentioned on how the Targa/Coupe and changing to the spyder idea worked, can't remember all the detail on it, but for the most part it would be just changing out the rear deck section from one to the other without having to change a whole body.

[Flamshackle]

Hey V-man. You have stated that you can't do a "3 point perspective". However, to have your design considered further and potentially made into a 1/4 scale model I'm sure you will agree that a 3 point perspective is a must.

So can you partner with someone or even a company spend a few $ and get this thing a little closer to reality?

I love your design in side/rear/front images! More than the others potentially (if we could compare apples to apples) but when comparing it to Rodney's development it's not a competition as the design has been taken so much further.

One thing you could do is track down an individual/company and find out the costs of having it translated into a 3 point perspective. You could then ask the community here for support to realise your design. Dont give up on this yet V-man!

Keep the design moving by exploring other avenues. Great work and well done for what you have produced so far :~)

[adesilva]

Unless Dave pretty much guaranteed him the design would exist thats the only way id imagine it would make sense to pay someone to help him out. As much as we love his design it may be too late for it to ever come to fruition.

[Vman7]

Hey V-man. You have stated that you can't do a "3 point perspective". However, to have your design considered further and potentially made into a 1/4 scale model I'm sure you will agree that a 3 point perspective is a must.

So can you partner with someone or even a company spend a few $ and get this thing a little closer to reality?

I love your design in side/rear/front images! More than the others potentially (if we could compare apples to apples) but when comparing it to Rodney's development it's not a competition as the design has been taken so much further.

One thing you could do is track down an individual/company and find out the costs of having it translated into a 3 point perspective. You could then ask the community here for support to realise your design. Dont give up on this yet V-man!

Keep the design moving by exploring other avenues. Great work and well done for what you have produced so far :~)

I can do a 3 point perspective, just be a lot of work, be basicly starting from scratch.

No way could I afford to have somebody do it, just don't have the money, and even if I did probably not a wise idea for right now unless it went somewhere with FFR.


Unless Dave pretty much guaranteed him the design would exist thats the only way id imagine it would make sense to pay someone to help him out. As much as we love his design it may be too late for it to ever come to fruition.

I agree with all of that, pretty much true, but you never know, things do happen. Not crossing my fingers, but trying to stay positive that maybe, just maybe Dave Smith & FFR will give it a real good look, even if not for the whole design but say the rear. The rear is my favorite part of the car.

David

[kach22i]

I can do a 3 point perspective, just be a lot of work, be basicly starting from scratch.
David, if you can draw by hand take a perspective which someone else has already worked out, and which has similar wheelbase and height (X's and O's) and trace over your design. Contrary to "pure art" overlays and trace overs are fine when developing your own work if it saves you time.

I did all of my perspectives based on photos of a clay model I built. Once the first one was done, I printed it out and drew on it with a heavy felt tip pen, then traced over it with a small tech pen on Mylar, and ran another print (did this 8 times). I only goofed up when I did not take enough time to work out complex compound curves found on the rear bumper and things (my Porsche-like design is the worst rear distortion). My original clay car was straight across flat, and it was hard to fudge this back in.

[Vman7]

David, if you can draw by hand take a perspective which someone else has already worked out, and which has similar wheelbase and height (X's and O's) and trace over your design. Contrary to "pure art" overlays and trace overs are fine when developing your own work if it saves you time.

I did all of my perspectives based on photos of a clay model I built. Once the first one was done, I printed it out and drew on it with a heavy felt tip pen, then traced over it with a small tech pen on Mylar, and ran another print (did this 8 times). I only goofed up when I did not take enough time to work out complex compound curves found on the rear bumper and things (my Porsche-like design is the worst rear distortion). My original clay car was straight across flat, and it was hard to fudge this back in.

Thanks for the tips George. I might just have to use something with body close to what I need, I have a few already.

[Vman7]

Here are a couple of color changes of the side view, just done quick.

I am working on the front area of the side view right now, getting that all cleaned up.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5822&d=1320609616
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5823&d=1320609623
5823

[olpro]

Love it in red.

[STI4WRC]

I also like the idea of dark charcoal gray, or a matte black. Keep up the hard work. I'm counting on your design to be my next track weapon.

[RM1SepEx]

this is a sweet design, it fits the frame outline, make it a targa and I'd put my cash down in an instant... :-)

[Vman7]

this is a sweet design, it fits the frame outline, make it a targa and I'd put my cash down in an instant... :-)

Go to page 4, line #158

[crackedcornish]

I have a suggestion that has to do with the side scoop...either add another one of the horizontal elements or move the single one down to the center of the scoop.

And a couple of questions... what's going on between the front valance and the space in front of the front tire, the curves don't seem to match up with the frontal view down there (or is it just a shading flub on the side views), and where in the car would your targa top be stored?

[kitcarj]

Suggestion: Make the side view of the front air dam similar to what it looks like right behind the front wheels. Continue the lip that runs below the door. Beautiful design anyway but I was wondering the same thing but just figured the shiny is the original and the dull is an edit.

what's going on between the front valance and the space in front of the front tire, the curves don't seem to match up with the frontal view down there (or is it just a shading flub on the side views),

[Vman7]

I have a suggestion that has to do with the side scoop...either add another one of the horizontal elements or move the single one down to the center of the scoop.

And a couple of questions... what's going on between the front valance and the space in front of the front tire, the curves don't seem to match up with the frontal view down there (or is it just a shading flub on the side views), and where in the car would your targa top be stored?

The side Air intake are 2 different intakes, the bottom one is for engine area, the top small one is direct air to the carb/ EFI etc. I could move the break down like you said or just do away with it and have break between the 2 hidden.

The front that you see right now was just a blank for getting the shape of front Air Intake and spoiler. I am working on the shading right now as we speak.

Yeah that's has been a question I have pondered off and on, maybe behind the seats as a 2 pc. targa top or under the front bonnet and my fav. have the girlfriend or wife hold on to them......lol

[Vman7]

Suggestion: Make the side view of the front air dam similar to what it looks like right behind the front wheels. Continue the lip that runs below the door. Beautiful design anyway but I was wondering the same thing but just figured the shiny is the original and the dull is an edit.

The way it is going right now I will probably do that with the front air dam, which means I need to revise the front view a little to match.

[riptide motorsport]

Gorgeous in burgundy!!!!!!!! Blue too.

[imom]

vman7 it's a beautiful car you have drawn. I'm not a graphic artist and I just wanted to suggest some of my ideas...hopefully the community will like it... I was hoping for a more flat back, instead of a slanted angled back end when you look at it at a side view. Also for driving, I believe having a quarter panel glass would be awesome for blind spot. Excuse my poor modification of your nice design...hopefully you can change it so it looks better than what I modified.... I have a trackball mouse, so it's hard to draw a straight line to make quarter glass.

Also what do you think about bringing the front wheels forward another 6 inches or more? Driving with a long nose makes it difficult to go up driveways and such...I believe there may be also some handling benefits...but no experience to back up that statement.

Finally the rear view pictures you have made is awesome... I love it. I hope you like my side view suggestions.
Original
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5823&d=1320609623

Suggested changes of the rear end more flat than angled and quarter glass added.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5833&d=1320638057

same as above, but with front wheels moved forward
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5836&d=1320641745

lastly with the wheels forward, I added some brake ducting so the brakes get more air flow. Vman7 I hope you like it instead of being offended...really beautiful design you did... I hope this design is the one they go for.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5837&d=1320645302

[Vman7]

vman7 it's a beautiful car you have drawn. I'm not a graphic artist and I just wanted to suggest some of my ideas...hopefully the community will like it... I was hoping for a more flat back, instead of a slanted angled back end when you look at it at a side view. Also for driving, I believe having a quarter panel glass would be awesome for blind spot. Excuse my poor modification of your nice design...hopefully you can change it so it looks better than what I modified.... I have a trackball mouse, so it's hard to draw a straight line to make quarter glass.

Also what do you think about bringing the front wheels forward another 6 inches or more? Driving with a long nose makes it difficult to go up driveways and such...I believe there may be also some handling benefits...but no experience to back up that statement.

Finally the rear view pictures you have made is awesome... I love it. I hope you like my side view suggestions.
Original


If you go back to page 4, line #132 you will see in the rear view that the rear window is vertical just behind the seats. So really can't put side rear window, wouldn't really work unless there was a rear window that went with the curve of the roof line. The back idea could work it would change the raked look of the car leaning fwd.

As far as the front wheel being moved fwd, can't the wheelbase is set at 95" by Factory Five.

Thanks for the ideas though :)

David

[Vman7]

While I have been working the front area of the side view, I started thinking about a race front view with a air splitter and brake ducts.

[bbjones121]

imom, you have to read the design criteria from Factory Five. The wheelbase is set and the modified subaru transmission needs extra bump in the trunk. You can not flatten the back.

[imom]

Okay...so no quarter glass... I hope you consider "the back idea"... far as the wheelbase being set to 95"... I'm sure that Factory Five have their reasons for track, but for a daily driver car, I see a lot of problems on the street. I have a BMW M roadster and that car itself has problems going up and down driveways...many times I have to spider walk up and down driveways and it's stock...if I'm not careful I would scrap the front. How does the GTM or the 818 over come this issue, it's going to be sitting lower than mass production sports car? Other than being a track car...cars with long nose...I don't see being a practical daily driver unless the car's suspension is raised much higher. So either changing the long nose to a shorter one, or moving the wheelbase a little bit longer.

Vman7... is it possible to for you to bring the front nose in a little more (make it shorter)? I can see this car being panelized into smaller body parts...easier to manufacturer...similar to my M roadster now... Thank you for taking the time in designing this concept drawing.

[imom]

Sorry bbjones... I've been admiring all the post for many months but never read the rules as I didn't have the tools to design the cars, except offer visual comments on aesthetics of the design and some practical daily driver issues. Hopefully my comments can be incorporated given the design criteria. Vman7's design is awesome really becoming my favorite of all the cars offered; just some of the bumps here and there look out of place, but now I know there's a reason... perhaps with more feedback, we can come up with a solution...but again...just my 2 cents.

[kach22i]

...............wouldn't really work unless there was a rear window that went with the curve of the roof line.

Have you seen this?
http://www.pelkie.com/fiero.htm
5839

Not saying you should go the late model Fiero path, just saying it exists.

This study I did which illustrates that chopping off overhangs does not always work out as planned.

Modified 904
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Targa-Porsche-904.jpg

Original 904:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Porsche-904.jpg

[wheels]

I love this design. I wish I had the capability to do a design of this caliber. I did start playing with some sketches when the design contest was announced and I think that your design is the image I had in my head when I started sketching! If i can figure out how to post pics I'll post what I had come up with.

Do you think my wife will let me sell her minivan so i can buy this kit when it is released? :D

Great Job!

5883

[imom]

Vman7... even if you didn't take any suggestions of mine or others; I really appreciate what you made and even more so with the different color variations. Your design is the one I would put my hard earn money on to building a car. Having said all that... if nothing could change but one thing, I say making the front end shorter, so the car can go up and down driveways is a very practical problem that has to be solved. I don't mind driving up and down driveways on an angle...I do that daily, but seems this car having a longer nose...even then I think it would scrape the ground when driving sideways up or down a driveway.

Really awesome job and I hope Mr. Smith considers your design as a vehicle that would be made into a model. This car looks great as a coupe, convertible, or targa.... it's not something that can be said for many cars being made or what's being presented with the 818 designs.

[David Hodgkins]

Dave, check this design...

:)

[Vman7]

I'll have a update on the front side view soon, all blended and shaded :)

[RM1SepEx]

:D Wow, this car is looking sweet! Have to be able to stow that targa panel or have a "soft" top panel... I'd buy it in a minute... :D AMAZING

[Vman7]

Ok here is the front side view all done Updated

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5953&d=1320903827
5953

Next just details here and there and doing the front view head lights and redue the front Air dam.

Updated in Red

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5952&d=1320903669

David

[Vman7]

Updated above pics

[imom]

Hi Vman7... I thought about it again and I modified your design to move the wheelbase forward...both the front and back wheels so it's still 95". I modified the rear side view as well but still left room for the transaxle gear box. Once again... I hope this doesn't offend you, but a suggestion to solve the problem of driving up and down driveways and hitting parking bumps.

Here's the original picture
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5953&d=1320903827

and then the modified picture with wheels forward. Please excuse the bad photoshop blending of the body panels...it's only to show you the possibilities. You can see this version shows a shorter overall length.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5955&d=1320917991

[Oppenheimer]

You know what, I like that. I like the more vertical rear. I like the shorter front overhang. I like how there is more fender space behind the front wheel. I like how the area between headlight and front wheel is closer together.

The only thing that looks off is, and I didn't even notice this at first, is how tip of arch of top of front fender no longer matches up with the centerline of the front wheel.

[kach22i]

I modified the rear side view as well but still left room for the transaxle gear box.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I like the longer original tail better.

I think once a car is developed with certain overhangs in mind, it's hard to just go back and shorten them. I did a Porsche 904 study which in my mind proves this is not an isolated incident.

Original:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Porsche-904.jpg

Shorter version:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Targa-Porsche-904.jpg

[vozproto]

What? The a$$ end of this thing is the hottest part! don't be changing that up!

Thats like telling Eva Longoria that Callista Flockhart's a$$ is hotter.

[Niburu]

Thats like telling Eva Longoria that Callista Flockhart's a$$ is hotter.
this
I've got an awesome visulation going on in my head right now

[riptide motorsport]

Me too.....and I agree woleheartedly.

[imom]

The only thing that looks off is, and I didn't even notice this at first, is how tip of arch of top of front fender no longer matches up with the centerline of the front wheel.

I just moved the wheel wells forward...I didn't change the shape of the car, so the top shape remained the same, so it will be a little bit off. It's going to be up to Vman if he likes to do the modification. I made the changes in hopes that he likes it and make the suggested changes. I do believe that his original latest drawing...the front wheel top arch is not centered to the wheel as well...it's off centered back...while my suggested changes makes it more off centered forward, so Vman would have to tweak his design.

I don't see the porsche 918 or any other porsche similarities...other than it's an exotic sports car that some had mentioned. I like to see someone super impose the two cars...to me they are very much different.

Far as the rear end. It's the prettiest of all the designs submitted so far... I am not suggesting to change that... just that on the side view...to shorten it...so the overall car is shorter... it makes the car easier to drive and parallel park. I'm thinking of the practical day to day driving. It's not fair to compare Eva vs Callista... no way is that fair. I say if you want to compare... say like a J. Lo or Kardashian butt vs Jessica Biel. Both great rear ends, just saying to pull it in a little making it more fit like Biel.

[Vman7]

I just moved the wheel wells forward...I didn't change the shape of the car, so the top shape remained the same, so it will be a little bit off. It's going to be up to Vman if he likes to do the modification. I made the changes in hopes that he likes it and make the suggested changes. I do believe that his original latest drawing...the front wheel top arch is not centered to the wheel as well...it's off centered back...while my suggested changes makes it more off centered forward, so Vman would have to tweak his design.

The front wheel well is centered with the front fender, the hump you are seeing behind it is the fender on the other side. Trust me, it aligns up. I am very meticulous :)

I took the FFR template and moved it fwd about 3.5", which could work. I would leave the rear angle though. I could also shorten the front say by another 1" to 1.5", which would make the front shorter by up to 5", then shorten the rear some so it is balanced. I would have to reblend everything, but not a big deal. This way the front and rear views would pretty much look the same.

I will work with it a little bit and see how a "mock up" looks.

David

[vozproto]

How long do you think the car is? I haven't really heard of any Lotus Elise drivers complaining about fitting in parking spots.

I think having it canted out like that is part of the allure.
"I'll take my women like flo-jo."

[Vman7]

The Vantage spec.s are on page 1, line #9. Only thing that has changed it the wheel size.

From what I have so far on playing around with a shorter version, just chopped up and moved, it looks really short and makes the car look somewhat top heavy, just doesn't flow as well, but that is just a chopped up version, I might blend it in somewhat and see how it looks.

Orig Vantage spec.s
Length Overall: 161.5"

Width: Front Fender- 70"/ Rear Fender- 72"

Height (Coupe Version): 46.75"

Wheelbase: 95"

Compare spec.s to say a porsche 911 and you get an idea of just how small this car really is.

[Vman7]

Here is a "Mock up" shorter version with the orig. version.

Got really going hhmmmm....... Might just work even better for those Wookie size, being that there is a little more headroom, leg room remains the same, but not sure about the distance between the seat and steering wheel, if that is enough room for wookie size or not.

Only thing that has me concerned is the room for the headlights, I'll have to measure it out and see.

Updated Top Pic with a few more spec.s and corrected the 3.5" to 4"http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5966&d=1320970482
5966
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5963&d=1320969089
5964

[apexanimal]

i do like it better shortened...

[kitcarj]

It may be an illusion, but I like the front on the longer version because the headlight section seems to round up higher and flow less. Other then that they are both great!

[Vman7]

It may be an illusion, but I like the front on the longer version because the headlight section seems to round up higher and flow less. Other then that they are both great!

That's how I kind of feel as well, overall the short version isn't bad, except the headlight thing you are talking about. Now more I look at it, it bugs me......arrrhhhh.......lol

[Vman7]

roflmbo........more I look at the short version the front looks like it got smushed, kind of like a "pug" dog.......lol

[Steve91T]

The short version isn't bad, but the long is my favorite.

Steve

[Vman7]

The more I look at the short version, it bugs me.

Moving the wheelbase fwd that much doesn't really work. Now what I might be able to do is take 1-2" out the back and the same out of the front, but any more then that in the front will give it that "pug" look and create too much of a down slope fwd on the front fender.

[imom]

Vman7 ... thank you for mocking up the short version. I'm happy with the current short version you made, but even if you put back 1 to 2" I think it's a good compromise for daily driving. The lotus elise while it handles awesome it's very ill proportioned and your car looks way better... I think the current short version looks beautiful... if the community likes the longer version...all I have to say is that why have all that extra weight hanging on the outisde of the wheels.

I hope the current short version dimension stays. Really looking forward to an all angles view of the current shorter body design. Your mocked up version really puts the size and driver position into perspective. Thank you for the update.

[Vman7]

Vman7 ... thank you for mocking up the short version. I'm happy with the current short version you made, but even if you put back 1 to 2" I think it's a good compromise for daily driving. The lotus elise while it handles awesome it's very ill proportioned and your car looks way better... I think the current short version looks beautiful... if the community likes the longer version...all I have to say is that why have all that extra weight hanging on the outisde of the wheels.

I hope the current short version dimension stays. Really looking forward to an all angles view of the current shorter body design. Your mocked up version really puts the size and driver position into perspective. Thank you for the update.

Your Welcome :)

If I can get somewhere between the orig headlights and the short version headlights and not have such a drop off on the front fender, I might just be able to get it to work. Maybe only move the wheelbase 3" fwd instead of 4".

[bbjones121]

I like the original proportions better.

[Flamshackle]

same ^

[RM1SepEx]

I like the original proportions better.

ditto

[kach22i]

Here is a "Mock up" shorter version with the orig. version.
I'd have to see two clay models of these alternates in person side by side or at least a 3D computer spin-a-round to make a sound decision.

Just using a side view alone is not going to give me/you enough information.

This is a three dimensional problem, not a side elevation problem. I hate to say this, but you are thinking too much like an architect, and I'm an architect.

[BipDBo]

If Vman wants this car to be a serious contender, it is time to get it into 3D, well past time, actually. There are just too many things you can't see in straight on shots. For example, overhangs will always look bigger on a profile shot with no perspective. Have we even ever see a 3/4 sketch if this concept?

The first step must be to model the chassis skeleton and specified template measurements. I'm sure that there is someone on this forum that has the knowledge, software and willingness to do it. I like this car. Aside from looking good, aerodynamically and functionally, I think that it's one of the best. I just can't take it seriously as long as it remains just a photoshop mashup of existing cars.

[GS guy]

Agreed on the longer version - it just looks better proportioned. I do kind of like the slightly more forward placed front wheel though, but the whole forward shift of the wheelbase doesn't look that good in the back. A long low front end could be a pain to live with on the street, so some slight shorterning up front probably a good idea.

I'm not 100% on the rear diffuser either. I know it's the latest "styling trend" in a lot of designs, but from the rear it just looks to me like it's getting ready to drop a load! Bathroom jokes aside, making this "add-on" optional and seeing it without would enhance the rear-view beauty IMO. Just a smooth upward curving panel between the fenders would look nice - ala early F-car.

I'm really suprised something more like your design didn't make it to the final selection - it's much more like what I was expecting to see in the winner's circle. Maybe it's just me, but the others although innovative look like sports coupes, not the "HOF" race car for the street design I was imagining.

[riptide motorsport]

Vman....stop trying to make everyone happy.

[vozproto]

^ Agreed. Know what happened the last time someone tried to make everyone happy?

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/07/08/0824_uglycars/image/4pontiac_aztec.jpg

[2KWIK4U]

Vman....stop trying to make everyone happy.

Ditto

[Oppenheimer]

He got a suggestion, he tried it out. Doesn't mean he has to stick with it, doesn't mean he is trying to please everyone. Look how the Rodney car has benefited from revisions. I am looking fwd to seeing vman compromise shortened version. If he doesn't like it, he can always stick with the original.

[D2W]

If Vman wants this car to be a serious contender, it is time to get it into 3D, well past time, actually. There are just too many things you can't see in straight on shots. For example, overhangs will always look bigger on a profile shot with no perspective. Have we even ever see a 3/4 sketch if this concept?

The first step must be to model the chassis skeleton and specified template measurements. I'm sure that there is someone on this forum that has the knowledge, software and willingness to do it. I like this car. Aside from looking good, aerodynamically and functionally, I think that it's one of the best. I just can't take it seriously as long as it remains just a photoshop mashup of existing cars.

I agree on the 3d, at least a 3d render. I think everyone is getting way too excited too soon. The proportions of this design cannot be judged until we see how it all works together. Not that it won't, but look how people's opinion changed on Xabier's design when it went from 3d render to 3d model.

[Silvertop]

I agree on the 3d, at least a 3d render. I think everyone is getting way too excited too soon. The proportions of this design cannot be judged until we see how it all works together. Not that it won't, but look how people's opinion changed on Xabier's design when it went from 3d render to 3d model.

And opinions may change again if we ever get to see the 3d model from something other than a 2nd story window perspective.... And that is true for all four models, not just Xabier's.

[kach22i]

And opinions may change again if we ever get to see the 3d model from something other than a 2nd story window perspective.... And that is true for all four models, not just Xabier's.
Amen.

[riptide motorsport]

Rodneys car looked like a cartoon before and still does, so much for revisions.

[imom]

^ Agreed. Know what happened the last time someone tried to make everyone happy?

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/07/08/0824_uglycars/image/4pontiac_aztec.jpg

I don't know the back story behind aztek or has relevance to this discussion. Using a huge failure like Pontiac's Aztek is one extreme. To me Aztek was a good example of not listening to anyone or a bunch of incompetent managers that let this slide without any market research on aesthetics. Rodney O's car has been greatly improved...I thought the blue version original was more comic like and wouldn't hold the test of time. I think Vman's design can be a car that last through time... If you look at the other threads, Dave Smith complimented Vman's design of the rear end... It's very pretty and many have said so...including myself.

I think it's cool that various designers are taking the inputs and trying out suggestions...and ultimately it's their design and exploring new ideas and ideas of others to make a nice car... The end game is making a version that possibly Dave Smith would approve to make. Drawing on paper doesn't cost anything but time... not trying new looks or ideas will not get a better car is my opinion. I was driving my M roadster and going down a steep driveway at the mall... it's not fun to protect your ride while still not being an annoyance to traffic because you're driving down the driveway sideways. Better thought of form vs function will help fix this. If this is purely a track car...I'll be completely quiet and leave things be... as this is a non issues...race track you have perfectly even grounds and none of the issues of driving on bad roads and city driving like Los Angeles.

Perhaps if GTM owners can comment how they handle it as a daily driver...that car has a long nose.

[flyboy2160]

.......

I think once a car is developed with certain overhangs in mind, it's hard to just go back and shorten them. I did a Porsche 904 study which in my mind proves this is not an isolated incident.

Original:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Porsche-904.jpg

Shorter version:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Targa-Porsche-904.jpg

i disagree. i like your shorter 904 better than the original (except for that goofy rear quarter window)!! i suspect the longer 904 nose and tail and the current longer 911 noses and tails are for drag or downforce.

[olpro]

^ Agreed. Know what happened the last time someone tried to make everyone happy?

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/07/08/0824_uglycars/image/4pontiac_aztec.jpg
Meet the new champion of ugly.
6016

[Steve91T]

Rodneys car looked like a cartoon before and still does, so much for revisions.

Really? I could see it with a simple 2d drawing, swooping doors, and the angry head lights. But it's really evolved into a "real" car that is going to look amazing on the street.

[miznitic]

I like the original way more so than any of these recent revisions.

[Psay]

The Nissan Juke may be perceived as ugly by some but Nissan are rubbing their hands and filling their pockets with lots of money with this car. The factory in Sunderland where this is built in absolutely flat out and cannot build enough of them. In fact they are taking extra staff on to run the production lines through the lunch breaks.

I would imagine most of the big names would love this car in their line up.

[vozproto]

Meet the new champion of ugly.
6016

Oh man that IS ugly.

And to those critical to me post please note that it was not one to put down nor to say the design is ugly.
It was just a comedic post to show the extreme of what happens when you try to please everyone.

Trying out new ideas is great and the true mark of a good product designer. But at some point the designer has to make the final choice. The Aztec suffered from too many blind cooks in the kitchen from the designers, to the production engineers and finally to the business folks cutting cost.

I keep seeing this quote "a camel is a horse designed by committee" and that is exactly what the Aztec was.

[kach22i]

The Aztec fails to turn a corner or come together when viewing at the rear 3/4 angle, other than that it just dared to be different. I never liked it, but I understand many women did and do.

The Juke once again fails to jell many disparate components together, but if your eye can look past some things and focus on others it has a cute fun aspect about it.

In short both designs ask the eye of the viewer to work too hard and gloss over it's flaws.

[riptide motorsport]

Questio is..what do you think of this thing? I saw one last night, I think I like it but I;m not sure:

http://www.hyundaiusa.com/veloster/gallery.aspx

http://www.google.com/search?q=hyundai+veloster&hl=en&biw=1280&bih=628&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=jKO-TrHYFcu9tgeG-NHABg&ved=0CIwBELAE

[kach22i]

Questio is..what do you think of this thing? I saw one last night, I think I like it but I;m not sure:

http://www.hyundaiusa.com/veloster/gallery.aspx

http://www.google.com/search?q=hyundai+veloster&hl=en&biw=1280&bih=628&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=jKO-TrHYFcu9tgeG-NHABg&ved=0CIwBELAE
I had to check what I posted after NAIAS 2011, looks like I said my brother and I liked it.

http://www.thehotseatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=694&p=6337&hilit=veloster#p6337
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads18/hi21295619791.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads18/hi11295619818.jpg

I do recall having concerns about rear passenger headroom though.

[Best of the best]

Meet the new champion of ugly.
6016

The Aztec is an interesting design. If you look at it carefully it's ahead of its time. When I see an Aztec I see a big version of a Prius and look at the Prius. People love it. Remember the Aztec came before the Prius. It's just that Pontiac didn't quite executed as well as the Prius design. But over all its shape and proportion is very similiar to the Prius.

[vozproto]

Questio is..what do you think of this thing? I saw one last night, I think I like it but I;m not sure:

http://www.hyundaiusa.com/veloster/gallery.aspx

Do I like it for me? No.
Do i like it as far as the design and not being an eyesore. Yes.
It's very well put together and the fashion seems to follow the function which is much more than you can say about the Aztec or juke.

[Vman7]

Confused here.........is this the Aztec thread or the Vantage thread.......rofl

[RM1SepEx]

Rodneys car looked like a cartoon before and still does, so much for revisions.

agreed, can't see myself driving one... except to a showing of the movie Cars or Cars 2

[BipDBo]

Questio is..what do you think of this thing? I saw one last night, I think I like it but I;m not sure:

http://www.hyundaiusa.com/veloster/gallery.aspx

http://www.google.com/search?q=hyundai+veloster&hl=en&biw=1280&bih=628&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=jKO-TrHYFcu9tgeG-NHABg&ved=0CIwBELAE

Even if you like the looks of a Volester, it's just an overpriced, overweight Accent with one less door and a huge blind spot.

Let's get back to Vman's 818 though because all it shares with the Juke, Prius, Aztec or Volester is four wheels.

[imom]

Okay...so back to the vantage design. I know there are talks of how shorter car looks a bit high, so I took Vman's design and change the rake of the windshield a few degrees. I kept in mind that FFR wanted to release a track car and then various other flavors. So included into the mod to Vman's design...I made some lines to indicate "panel-ization" of body...so it's easier to fabricate and ship as well as for third parties or FFR to release a variety of custom flavors...following Mr. Smith's swatch watch concepts. So for track version...the owner can buy a different front bumper, rear bumper, add brake vents behind the front wheel... also lends itself for carbon fiber folks to make carbon fiber body replacements. So showing Vman's original short version and some of my suggested mods.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6032&d=1321139589

Front windshield rake changed and also broke the body into panels as in real production. The rake may be too much...so maybe flattening out the targa top would be better...but lets hear some feedback from the community. Also I chop off the front lip of the car for drive-ability...the track version can have a much longer front lip...again swatch watch concept. And yes...I still kept the flatter back end...but just my opinion of Vman's design. The seam lines can be placed by FFR's discretion for manfacturing...I just made up my own for concept of "panel-ization"
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6033&d=1321139592

I changed the front hood as the air vent on the hood took away useable space. This space can potentially used to store the targa top or small luggage or shopping bag storage. Since it's "panelized"...pick and choose your own version. It's up to the third party aftermarket hoods or FFR provided products.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6034&d=1321139594

finally the back broken up in pieces...the nice thing again being able to customize or buy customize parts as lower cost.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6035&d=1321139595

I'm not sure how the front and back would open...maybe like this, but then the bumper would need to be changed slightly to accommodate opening from the rear and the seam lines changed altogether. But this way the car would be easy access to service the car.
http://www.supercarnet.jp/LamborghiniWEB/MiuraSV-32.jpg

Once again...to be clear...this is just a suggested mods to Vman's awesome design. Last note...is to please don't think of the black lines to indicate the seams as being that big... it's just my poor photoshop skills...but bold enough lines to show where the body panels are segmented for easier manufacturing.

[Vman7]

imom, orig top/windshield looks better. As far as the panels go, I originally had them all figured out everywhere, but then decided that I would leave that up to FFR since they would know best to work with the frame etc.

[Vman7]

I am going back and looking at some other side vent ideas I had before that I never released. Mostly the one right behind the side window which went through and dwn into the engine deck for the intercooler, of course this would only be on the targa/coupe version. Also working on a race version as well, mostly the front air dam, front brake ducts, aux lights. and rear wing.

David

[305mouse]

David, every person that tries to change your design, in my opinion, makes it worse. The changes you made, look great. Just get a 3d mock up of your current design. Whatever you do, do not flatten the rear end.

[Flamshackle]

David, every person that tries to change your design, in my opinion, makes it worse. The changes you made, look great. Just get a 3d mock up of your current design. Whatever you do, do not flatten the rear end.

This ^^^

[Vman7]

Here is another idea I had for side vents, new one on bottom and Top Vent (black) behind side window area for Intercooler.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6055&d=1321164702

6055

[GUNS]

I like that a lot. I think mostly because I never liked the splitter in your original verison.

[imom]

Vman, what's the distance from the front to the center of the front wheel? Also what is the overall dimensions width and height as well of the long version? I still think your shorten version is ideal...but I know I'm in the minority. I wonder how many of the Vantage admirer have a low riding sports car? If FFR offer your design to build, I'm sure I would still get one, but really it's no fun driving and parking low riding cars. You're always concerned if you crawl up to parking bump and if the front bumper will hit the cement block or not. Other than these minors issues... my M roadster is a blast to drive.

Your standard or long Vantage version is the same car length as the BMW Z4 M at 161" . The lotus elise is 149" long. So in comparison, the Z4 has a 98.2" wheel base and the lotus has a 90.6" wheel base. Stock Z4 M is 3200+ lbs and an all carbon fiber body with racing seats is 2600 lbs. The lotus is 2000 lbs. I got all this info from Wiki... so if it's wrong...it's not intentional. The 818 is not a GTM, it's a small car and super light weight... stating the obvious, but I'm making a point that shorten vantage version will be more of a realistic applicable port for FFR to the 818 spec of size vs weight requirement.

So while some or many don't like the flat rear end... I don't mind that and more than happy to take the standard rear end. My arguments is that given size and weight... my summation is that Vman's shorten version should be the one to be worked on. If FFR say that the 161" car length is no problem in terms of making 818 kg weight...then hey...that's cool too.

I'm not sure if Dave Smith ever considered taking Vman, Rodney, and the other favorites to students of the art center http://www.artcenter.edu/accd/index.jsp...(one of their famous former students is Chip Foose) and seeing if they can give some tweaks or come up with as well.

Vman...love the side vents to the intercooler. Looks just like the quarter glass I was asking for initially: looks really good!

[Steve91T]

Here is another idea I had for side vents, new one on bottom and Top Vent (black) behind side window area for Intercooler.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6055&d=1321164702

6055

That really looks nice. I really like how much air you're allowing to get into the engine compartment.

[kach22i]

Here is another idea I had for side vents.....................
That is more "fluid" and less "cocked" or "wrenched" looking.

It's getting better all the time.

I don't see any of "that other car" in it.

Looks like a clean sheet design now.

[Twinspool]

Kinda depends on how much air can squeak between the fender well and frame members to get into the engine compartment. Anything is better than the fake scoops like the mustangs wore for so long.

[BipDBo]

I changed the front hood as the air vent on the hood took away useable space. This space can potentially used to store the targa top or small luggage or shopping bag storage. Since it's "panelized"...pick and choose your own version. It's up to the third party aftermarket hoods or FFR provided products.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6034&d=1321139594


I believe that removing the radiator discharge through the front hood is a big mistake. First, the verical discharge will relieve upward pressure on the hood and even give some downforce, which will be greatly needed on a car with so much of the mass over the rear wheels. I don't think that the chassis structure allows for much if any storage room up front. This is not like a front engine car where the air will just flow around an engine. The air going through the radiator needs to be diverted somewhere, which will require ducting. Ducting the air upward will probably be the most direct and least space intrusive because the radiator is already sloped forward. I believe that most mid engine cars that have storage up front mostly have either twin radiators at each of the front corners or has a radiator in the back. The 818 will use a single radiator from its donor, front and center, unless it can be moved to the rear of the car. As for storage there is much more potential room in the back of the car over the transaxle as shown on this sketch by kach22i.
6084

[imom]

I believe that removing the radiator discharge through the front hood is a big mistake. First, the verical discharge will relieve upward pressure on the hood and even give some downforce, which will be greatly needed on a car with so much of the mass over the rear wheels. I don't think that the chassis structure allows for much if any storage room up front. This is not like a front engine car where the air will just flow around an engine. The air going through the radiator needs to be diverted somewhere, which will require ducting. Ducting the air upward will probably be the most direct and least space intrusive because the radiator is already sloped forward. I believe that most mid engine cars that have storage up front mostly have either twin radiators at each of the front corners or has a radiator in the back. The 818 will use a single radiator from its donor, front and center, unless it can be moved to the rear of the car. As for storage there is much more potential room in the back of the car over the transaxle as shown on this sketch by kach22i.

Bip, The radiator will be placed in front as you mentioned...I saw the video where Jim mentions he wants to balance the car out and distribute more weight to the front. The intercooler is more difficult to route up front because of the price target from what I recall looking at the videos. I wouldn't put anymore weight onto the back to balance out the weight. So to reduce drag, I imagine that you need as much airflow out as it's getting in. That air flow can be either diverted into 2 separate vents somewhere on the hood, but still leave room for some storage space or diverted as exhaust vents behind the front wheels...this way it will be the exhaust vent for both the radiator air intake as well as the brake air intake for cooling the brakes.

Really a lot of these issues will be determined from wind tunnel testing...all these are just theories that I am stating until some modeling with solidworks or real life tunnel testing. A lot of this will be FFR adapting and adjusting what they feel is important is my guess. I just wanted to present to real life daily driver issues as they are different cars the track and street versions.

[Flamshackle]

still needs a vent on the bonnet IMO... Love the design and hope to see some 3 point perspective images one day soon!

[Steve91T]

I agree it needs to exit out the hood. I just don't see any reason why not to. My 2nd gen MR2 did not have the radiator exit through the hood and there was still just barely enough room for a spare tire.

But if it can't exit out the hood, at least have it exit out the sides. My Camaro is a bottom breather. It takes air from the bottom via a radiator chin spoiler, goes through the radiator, and exits into the engine compartment (probably down and out). At 130 MPH, I can feel the front end getting very light. And that's with my very front heavy Camaro.

The 818 needs to have an escape for the incoming cooling air. Doing this won't add down force like someone mentioned, but it won't create lift, which is important.

Maybe the kit could give the builder the option to either have the air exit through the hood or out the sides. Seems like it would be easy to do.

Steve