Power Steering pump fitment issue

[RickP]

I've gotten myself in a bit of a pickle and I'm hoping folks can share some ideas to get me past the problem. I installed my motor today with the help of my son only to run into a fitment issue with a serpentine front motor setup I have on my 302. Way back when I posted pics of my motor, EdwardB raised a concern regarding the setup I was running in which he thought I may have interference between the driver side power steering pump and the steering shaft. He was right. It's been on my mind ever since he raised the potential problem, no it's a reality.

The serpentine setup you see in the pics below is a billet alternator/power steering (Saginaw pump) kit made by CVF Racing. The belt is routed to drive a reverse rotation Wieland water pump. I had to loosen the pwr steering pump and bracket that holds it just to get the motor mounts to seat.

I thought maybe I could route the steering shaft differently but I've never done it and don't even know where to start. I don't think I could cut the bracket and move the pump inward enough to have enough clearance as the motor is going to shake quite a bit. There is only so much adjustability with the billet pump bracket.

Any ideas, thoughts, solutions would be much appreciated.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57294&d=1470790227

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57295&d=1470790228

[CraigS]

My first step would be to call CVF Racing. I can't tell where that missing bolt actually goes but could the mount be removed and the outer end be pushed down to fit under the steering shaft and then the bolts installed?

[edwardb]

Hey Rick. Sorry to see the potential interference really happened. :( Wish I had an easy answer. I don't. If you have the Energy motor mounts, the engine moves a little. But maybe not as much as you might think. At the risk of stating the obvious, is there a possibility for a different PS pump bracket? Looks like there's plenty of room on the engine side for the pump to be closer to the engine. Or maybe you could drill new mounting holes in the existing pump bracket to move it over enough to clear? Looks like there's some available space on the bracket for new holes, although don't know what the implications would be for the strength of the bracket. I don't think there's any possibility to move the steering column without other consequences. Maybe replace the one column with one that has another u-joint in the middle. But that would require adding another mounting location for the column somewhere in the middle, and I think more work than figuring out a way to move the pump. Good luck whatever you come up with.

[RickP]

My first step would be to call CVF Racing. I can't tell where that missing bolt actually goes but could the mount be removed and the outer end be pushed down to fit under the steering shaft and then the bolts installed?


I plan on giving them a buzz today. And I'm going to take a closer look at moving the mount down on the lower h20 pump bolt. Maybe I can sneak it under the shaft as you suggest. Maybe...

[RickP]

Hey Rick. Sorry to see the potential interference really happened. :( Wish I had an easy answer. I don't. If you have the Energy motor mounts, the engine moves a little. But maybe not as much as you might think. At the risk of stating the obvious, is there a possibility for a different PS pump bracket? Looks like there's plenty of room on the engine side for the pump to be closer to the engine. Or maybe you could drill new mounting holes in the existing pump bracket to move it over enough to clear? Looks like there's some available space on the bracket for new holes, although don't know what the implications would be for the strength of the bracket. I don't think there's any possibility to move the steering column without other consequences. Maybe replace the one column with one that has another u-joint in the middle. But that would require adding another mounting location for the column somewhere in the middle, and I think more work than figuring out a way to move the pump. Good luck whatever you come up with.

well my friend, you did warn me. I took every possible measurement I could and trust me, it's been in the back of my mind for 5 months. It "just makes" contact when the belt is fully adjusted. I'm going to call CVF as CraigS suggested and see if they have a different bracket or can fab on or ......

Staying positive..... the motor is in.:cool:

[boat737]

This isn't mine, but a picture for comparison.

57317

[RickP]

This isn't mine, but a picture for comparison.

57317

I'm curious to know what kind of pump he is running. Based on this setup, plenty of space. Same reverse rotation water pump as me, only difference is the bracket and water pump. Do you know if that's a March setup?

[boat737]

My engine is on order from The Engine Factory (TDMotion), and this is what they tell me: It's a March Performance Pulley Kit (I got the picture from them.) Chris there says their customers have not had fitment issues with frame or steering clearance. They are a sponsor here.

[clancypm]

I would think u could just grind the bracket down until u have clearance

[RickP]

I would think u could just grind the bracket down until u have clearance

that would for sure clear the bracket but the pump pulley would still make contact.

[DaleG]

Smaller pulley and appropriate flow control valve (or Heidst valve)?

[Jeff Kleiner]

That pump location is for a Fox body with A/C which obviously won't work. You need to use a bracket for a non-A/C Fox body which locates the pump higher and tighter eliminating shaft interference. I have used billet brackets from CFR Performance on multiple builds.

Jeff

[RickP]

That pump location is for a Fox body with A/C which obviously won't work. You need to use a bracket for a non-A/C Fox body which locates the pump higher and tighter eliminating shaft interference. I have used billet brackets from CFR Performance on multiple builds.

Jeff


I'm going to give them a buzz Jeff. I see a bracket they sell which I think fits the bill. Just don't know if it's a Saginaw pump. I called CVF Racing and they had a couple issues similar to what I am having with MK's, unfortunately, their fix requires the right water pump (129.00) plus a new timing cover. If I took that course, they would throw in the new bracket and hardware etc.

[RickP]

This is the bracket CFR is recommending.

http://www.cfrperformance.com/FORD_MUSTANG_5_0_POWER_STEERING_BRACKET_SET_CHROME _p/hz-4306-c.htm

I downloaded the PDF installation instructions and based on the motor picture in it, looks like its mounted more inward and up. Really hard to tell and the tech at CFR seems to think it will work. For 83.00 bucks I'm willing to give it a try. I'm sure I will need a new belt as well.

economically speaking it's a better option and sure beats re-installing a new timing cover and water pump

[Avalanche325]

This is the bracket CFR is recommending.

http://www.cfrperformance.com/FORD_MUSTANG_5_0_POWER_STEERING_BRACKET_SET_CHROME _p/hz-4306-c.htm

I downloaded the PDF installation instructions and based on the motor picture in it, looks like its mounted more inward and up. Really hard to tell and the tech at CFR seems to think it will work. For 83.00 bucks I'm willing to give it a try. I'm sure I will need a new belt as well.

economically speaking it's a better option and sure beats re-installing a new timing cover and water pump

That bracket is for a Ford style pump. I don't think it will work with your pump. Did he understand that you have a GM style pump?

Also, the link is for chrome. They also have polished aluminum. It looks to me like your other brackets are polished.

[RickP]

oh man am I glad you said something. I called them back and the bracket won't work with the pump I have. What pumps do you folks run?

[rich grsc]

I would not do business with any company that tried to sell me a timing cover, just because you're changing water pumps.

[Avalanche325]

There are guys running saginaw pumps, so I am sure that you can find a bracket.

I am running a Ford style pump and CFR pulleys. I'll blab on in case you want more info. The Ford pump works fine. There is an easy mod where you cut the spring down to reduce boost a little which gives it a great feel. I autocross and had an issue. The Ford pump has a pretty loose cap and the filler is at a 30* or so angle. I would dump a little fluid in hard right hand turns. There is a mod to fix that too using fuel filler hose. Not needed for just street use.

These are the CFR pulleys and brackets with a Ford pump. Filler mod not done in this pic.

http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t474/Avalanche325/IMG_0431_zps6a85865b.jpg (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/Avalanche325/media/IMG_0431_zps6a85865b.jpg.html)

[Avalanche325]

I wonder if someone like KRC bracket would have a bracket that would work with your pump.

If you don't think you can drool over a power steering pump, check out the KRC setup that Bill_VA has.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?656-Ultimate-Power-Steering-Thread!

[Jeff Kleiner]

As I said above I have used CFR brackets and pulleys on a few builds however with Ford pumps. In this pic you can see where it winds up in relation to the shaft:

http://www.ffcars.com/forums/attachments/factory-five-roadsters/60794d1373304288-another-build-thread-5717-cell-phone-7-8-13-015.jpg

Sorry, I didn't catch that you were planning to use a Saginaw but I'll ask the question: why? All of the cars I have built have Ford pumps and they have all been trouble free. On my own I run a Heidt's valve so that I can adjust boost depending on what I'm doing; backed off for a little more resistance at the wheel on the street, full assist for autocross and somewhere in between on road courses depending on the track. All of my customer cars are running full boost. I've asked the owners if they would like for me to do the spring mod to back it down and they are all happy with 'em as-is.

Cheers,
Jeff

[RickP]

I wonder if someone like KRC bracket would have a bracket that would work with your pump.

If you don't think you can drool over a power steering pump, check out the KRC setup that Bill_VA has.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?656-Ultimate-Power-Steering-Thread!

that is a sweet setup

[RickP]

As I said above I have used CFR brackets and pulleys on a few builds however with Ford pumps. In this pic you can see where it winds up in relation to the shaft:

http://www.ffcars.com/forums/attachments/factory-five-roadsters/60794d1373304288-another-build-thread-5717-cell-phone-7-8-13-015.jpg

Sorry, I didn't catch that you were planning to use a Saginaw but I'll ask the question: why? All of the cars I have built have Ford pumps and they have all been trouble free. On my own I run a Heidt's valve so that I can adjust boost depending on what I'm doing; backed off for a little more resistance at the wheel on the street, full assist for autocross and somewhere in between on road courses depending on the track. All of my customer cars are running full boost. I've asked the owners if they would like for me to do the spring mod to back it down and they are all happy with 'em as-is.

Cheers,
Jeff

I guess there are two reasons why I decided to go with a GM style pump. The main reason is the bracket kit I bought would support it (not knowing it wouldn't fit the engine bay later) and most importantly, they look better than a Ford pump.

[RickP]

after sleeping on it, the one thing I'm not going to do is go the route of swapping the water pump and timing chain cover. That option is off the table. Now I'm leaning towards obtaining a Ford pump and proper bracket and be done with it. Any recommendations on a Ford pump?

[RickP]

I wonder if someone like KRC bracket would have a bracket that would work with your pump.

If you don't think you can drool over a power steering pump, check out the KRC setup that Bill_VA has.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?656-Ultimate-Power-Steering-Thread!

I'm so glad you posted this thread. And even more glad you chimed in about the bracket I had ordered. I am taking Bill_VA's lead and following what he has done minus the KRC pump. He uses a bracket that:

from CV Products part#CV222-SBF-LTW

1. mounts to the head, not the water pump
2. will accommodate a GM Saginaw pump

based on Bills motor pics, my current pump should be up and away from the steering shaft with some room to spare. Time will tell I guess. And as always, when you see a better mouse trap than the current trap you have, break out another $100. That KRC pump Bill has is really sweet and I'm thinking about it........First things first at this point.

[Jeff Kleiner]

. Any recommendations on a Ford pump?

An '88-'93 5.0 liter Mustang pump will set you back less than a hundred bucks at NAPA, AutoZone, etc.

Jeff

[RickP]

An '88-'93 5.0 liter Mustang pump will set you back less than a hundred bucks at NAPA, AutoZone, etc.

Jeff

Thank you Jeff. I figured but wanted to be sure. Doesn't hurt to ask those who know!

[CraigS]

Call mark at Breeze to ask if his bracket will fit. He uses something other than a Ford pump but I am not sure if it is Saginaw style or not.
http://www.breezeautomotive.com/home.php?cat_id=12

[6t8dart]

there is a very easy way to solve the issue. If you only need an inch or so, then use a double u joint, just mount the shaft on a bearing (heim or pillow block), then use the double joint. If you need a lot more room, then you can use a steering offset box, but they are near $600.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Search?query=steering+offset

[RickP]

Call mark at Breeze to ask if his bracket will fit. He uses something other than a Ford pump but I am not sure if it is Saginaw style or not.
http://www.breezeautomotive.com/home.php?cat_id=12

I ordered and am waiting a on bracket very similar to Mark's. Hoping it gives me the room I need (mounts to the head, not the water pump), but you don't know until you get it installed. I'm hoping it's on he doorstep Monday.

[CraigS]

The good thing is that w/ that big flat plate, if the holes aren't a perfect alignment, it's easy to fix. I used his mount and some longer spacers to mount my 99 Explorer pump which seems to be a Saginaw w/ a remote reservoir.

[RickP]

Just wanted to follow up on this thread and show what route I ended up taking. After realizing the GM Saginaw (tear drop) style pump is not going to work on any aftermarket pulley setup for Ford, I gave the folks at KRC a call and pulled the trigger on an iron, tank mounted pump and 6" pulley. Even then, the CV products bracket I had previously ordered, would not mount the pump. Bill_VA must be running a different water pump/timing cover than me as the CV bracket would not work without major modification. I took another dip into the wallet and obtained a KRC bracket (as Avalanche325 pointed out). After that, she fit like a glove.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57947&d=1472408766

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57946&d=1472408765

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57945&d=1472408764

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57948&d=1472408767

[edwardb]

Looks great. Took some coin, but I think a good upgrade plus fixed the interference problem. The KRC stuff is nice. Especially the ability to adjust the amount of boost by switching the flow valve. I went with KRC on my current Coyote build. After an initial issue with the wrong drive pulley, it fits perfectly.

[RickP]

Looks great. Took some coin, but I think a good upgrade plus fixed the interference problem. The KRC stuff is nice. Especially the ability to adjust the amount of boost by switching the flow valve. I went with KRC on my current Coyote build. After an initial issue with the wrong drive pulley, it fits perfectly.

I'm very happy with the setup and after speaking to the owner of KRC (good ol Georgia boy), I think it's money well spent. And yeah, got me out of a real bind for sure. Looks good too!

[Avalanche325]

My Ford pump works just fine. But, there is something about that KRC pump setup that I just love the look of.

If I were single, or wanted to get that way, I would just pony up and get one.