Slow to crank, no start

[bil1024]

So heres what I have.

1988 302 converted to carb, running HEI distributor. Donor was low mileage, never removed pistons etc.. All new gaskets/starter and battery.

First start got flames out carb and sidepipes - Adj timing, took cylinder to top, no more flames! But timing mark on crank 180 off from pointer ?

Got fuel to the carb / spark at plug no 1.

12.4 volts at relay and battery

Cranks slowly

What do you guys think ?

[65 Cobra Dude]

May $.02 is engine ground.

Henry

[Bob Cowan]

First, fix the timing mark issue. Make sure the #1 piston is at TDC on the compression stroke. Make sure the distributor rotor is pointed at the #1 position. Then find out why the balancer mark is 180* off. I would not go any further until you figure that out.

[rich grsc]

What Bob said, also 12.4 volts is a low battery.

[seagull81]

Make sure you have the timing light connected to the correct #1 wire. Passenger front. Not like a Chevy. Don't ask.
Charge the battery and be sure you have a heavy ground wire from the starter bolt to the frame. I use a short battery cable.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Engine block to frame ground strap helps ease things along.

[bil1024]

So I checked grounds and added ground to starter, the ground wire for engine is from frame to head, not sure if that makes a difference also got timing mark at tip of pointer and rotor pointed at #1 on the cap still does exact same thing cranks slow even jumped the battery no difference could there be a dead spot say on cam or crank ? They are original never removed ?

[2bking]

Could you explain what you describe as slow cranking. Is it smooth but slow in RPMs or does it have places where it almost stalls and then speeds up.

[bil1024]

More like slows then speeds up, but it does not speed up fast. One thing is I have the stock type starter and relay is mounted on driver side cable is 4 ft from relay to starter

[CraigS]

When you say stock type starter do you mean one w/o it's own built in solenoid?
http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=474461&cc=1430162&jsn=450
If so your best bet for long term satisfaction is a ministarter
http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=474213&cc=1134188&jsn=623
This is for illustration purposes only and may not be the exact one for your car. Rewire the firewall solenoid like this
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/craig-s/mini-starterwiring_zpsa6f76ffc.jpg

[bil1024]

Old style without attached solenoid

[rich grsc]

Save yourself a lot of grieve, just get a new mini-starter.

[Bob Cowan]

cranks slow even jumped the battery no difference could there be a dead spot say on cam or crank ? They are original never removed ?

The engine was running. So I don;t think it would be an internal problem - unless something broke. Try putting a socket on the crank snout and turning it by hand. If it's difficult, remove the spark plugs and try again.

Check the voltage at the battery and at the starter terminal while the engine is cranking over. You're looking for a voltage loss during cranking.

If that's OK, remove the starter and bench test it at Autozone (or wherever).

There's nothing wrong with the old style starter and remote solenoid. Usually very reliable and inexpensive. The mini starter is great for high compression or big inch strokers. But in your application what you have is perfectly fine.

[bil1024]

The engine was running. So I don;t think it would be an internal problem - unless something broke. Try putting a socket on the crank snout and turning it by hand. If it's difficult, remove the spark plugs and try again.

Check the voltage at the battery and at the starter terminal while the engine is cranking over. You're looking for a voltage loss during cranking.

If that's OK, remove the starter and bench test it at Autozone (or wherever).

There's nothing wrong with the old style starter and remote solenoid. Usually very reliable and inexpensive. The mini starter is great for high compression or big inch strokers. But in your application what you have is perfectly fine.

Definitely lose voltage when cranking and can crank by hand no problem will try without plugs

[MARIAH]

Is there a remote disconnect switch in your set up?
When corroded, they will pass voltage but restrict current available..... don't ask me how I know that little tidbit!

[Bob Cowan]

Definitely lose voltage when cranking and can crank by hand no problem will try without plugs

Good, you're on the right track. Check voltage at each connection from the positive battery terminal to the starter. At one of those points, you'll see the big voltage drop. That's where the problem is.

[bil1024]

Is there a remote disconnect switch in your set up?
When corroded, they will pass voltage but restrict current available..... don't ask me how I know that little tidbit!

Nope, no remote disconnect

[bil1024]

Good, you're on the right track. Check voltage at each connection from the positive battery terminal to the starter. At one of those points, you'll see the big voltage drop. That's where the problem is.

SO had time to pull plugs, hand crank with socket, no binding. Vaccum hose to HEI was bad, so will replace that tomorrow, then look for the voltage drop, will keep you all updated. Thanks guys

[bil1024]

Ok, so, still same issue. Now without 4 gauge wire to starter relay, I get 12v at post. Hook up wire and crank, 5 v ? At starter 5 v ? Tried grounding starter, same result ?? Removed wire from starter crank, 12 v ?

[Bob Cowan]

You're saying that when the battery is not hooked up, you get 12v at the battery post. But when you connect the 4g battery cable and run the starter, it drops to 5v?

If that's the case, sounds like the battery is dead. Take it down to Autozone and have it load tested.

[Boydster]

Bad battery x2

[bil1024]

I did try jump starting it one time but will take battery for testing

[rich grsc]

If the battery is bad (dead cell) jumping it doesn't always work. Why not just do the simplest thing first, and try a different battery?

[bil1024]

If the battery is bad (dead cell) jumping it doesn't always work. Why not just do the simplest thing first, and try a different battery?

Wish I had a spare top post one, �� But I did try jumpin it and seems to crank like normal so going to exchange battery today, thanks guys almost there

[AC Bill]

So I checked grounds and added ground to starter, the ground wire for engine is from frame to head, not sure if that makes a difference ...?

You need a good ground between the chassis (frame) and the starter. A starter mounting bolt is a good location. Clean any paint off the frame where you attach the cable. There should be a 2nd ground, between the block and the frame as well. Left side off the head is common with donor motors, as that's where the factory ground was.

If you have a HO engine the firing order is different than the non-HO
For the H.O. engine:
1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8

For non H.O.:
1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8

Looking down from above, the distributor plug towers for the H.O. firing order is counter clockwise.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33655&d=1411005021

Non-HO

http://www.mustangii.org/tech/engine/fo-302-460.jpg

[bil1024]

OK, so changed battery, cranking normal! Yeah, BUT still got backfire and not catching ? Now an 88, that's a 5.0 with firing order 13726548 correct ? Even though its carb. It did almost catch but flames thru side pipes and popping thru carb

[NukeMMC]

OK, so changed battery, cranking normal! Yeah, BUT still got backfire and not catching ? Now an 88, that's a 5.0 with firing order 13726548 correct ? Even though its carb. It did almost catch but flames thru side pipes and popping thru carb
Yes. Unless you changed your cam, your firing order is the 137 firing order.

Also, a reminder ... Ensure your TDC is set on the compression stroke (less than 1/2 rev after intake valve shuts) as it will also see TDC on the exhaust stroke.

[Jeff Kleiner]

From post #1:




...First start got flames out carb and sidepipes - Adj timing, took cylinder to top, no more flames! But timing mark on crank 180 off from pointer ?

What do you guys think ?

You have the distributor installed 180 degrees off. Speaking of the distributor...be sure it has a steel gear. Your steel cam is not compatible with a cast iron gear. The incompatibility will quickly wear out either the gear, cam or both filling the engine with metal in the process.


Jeff

[bil1024]

Still no luck, got the timing mark at 10 past tdc, a little backfiring not catching. So on a whim I put the wires in the non HO configuration, cranked and caught for a minute. Weird right ? Going back at it tomorrow. Any suggestions welcome, I am trying to contact previous owner to see if cam was changed. When I got the car it was already converted to carb, wondering what else they did ?

[supersize92003]

Any success yet ?

[bil1024]

Yes sorry forgot to post it ended up being 180 out, feeling stupid! :confused:thanks fellas for your help

[MARIAH]

These posts are always valuable for the knowledge that surfaces. We never know when we may be faced with the same symptoms.