Hard Top install tips - add yours

[AZPete]

I just got my 818 retrofit hard top 2 days ago but I thought I'd start a thread where we can list some installation tips.
Headliner:I learned that 3M Headliner and Fabric adhesive ($18.99) doesn't work holding our aluminum headliner to fiber glass. I followed the instructions exactly with the hard top upside-down and weighted for 4 hours. On the car overnight in the garage it came down. Next, I'll try silicone sealant and report back. I'm in a perfect test location with 115 degrees today!

Hatch hinge: The manual (1P) says to mount the hinge arm to the hatch with 1/4x20 bolts. What it doesn't say is that you should first mount rivnuts in the hatch cover. Nate at FFR said that there is aluminum inside the molded hatch cover so rivnuts will hold.

[07FIREBLADE]

Did Nate happen to tell you where the struts for the hardtop mount to. I can help a little later with some tips for how I got my hardtop installed.

[mikeb75]

Silicone sealant will not hold up the aluminum headliner plate. That is what I tried first before the top was installed so it had 1 day with weights holding it down and it fell.

My latest try was a combination of 3M Outdoor Carpet tape and Type 90 spray adhesive. Since my top is installed I clamped the headliner in place for a week while I was away. Yesterday I undid the clamps and after 1/2 a day in the garage with temps in the 90's the headliner is sagging in the middle and not supporting its own weight. Not looking too promising...

[07FIREBLADE]

So there is no way that it's going to hold with some heat insulation and fabric in place then...

[mikeb75]

maybe, if you use the weatherstrip on the upper firewall to physically lock the headliner in place in the back. I was not able to do that on my last attempt since the car is mostly assembled at this point.

I don't think adhesives alone are going to hold. A few tabs up front and the firewall in back might be enough...

looking like a winter project for me...

[AC Bill]

I have found that the 3M's automotive two sided molding tape will hold through thick and thin. You need to prep the surfaces first, making sure there is no mold wax, grease, etc., and it might not hurt to etch the surfaces slightly for a better bond. Heat does not seem to effect it, as I have used it on my fender vents right over the headers with no release taking place over many years.

[flynntuna]

I did a search and found this...

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=193906


http://www.glueplace.com/sprays-for-automotive-trim/

You should make sure the surface is clean , get all the mold release off. That may be why the glue isn't sticking.

[mikeb75]

I'd agree with mold release... except I coated the inside of my hard top with spray-on sound deadener - specifically DEI Boom Mat.

But I'll definitely read the links you provided as I've also had trouble bonding aluminum to the inside of the panels for anchor points.

Also of note, is the automotive molding tape thick (ish)? The carpet tape I used is thin, so there is no -give isn't the right word... padding?

[ewingate]

These did the trick for me!

http://www.mcmaster.com/#98007A110
http://www.mcmaster.com/#91355A164
http://www.mcmaster.com/#7605A13

[07FIREBLADE]

Of those are neat. I think that's the way to go than at least for the time being. How many did you end up using?

[AZPete]

I didn't see Mike's post before I tried silicone sealant but he's right that it doesn't hold. It took me 2 hours to clean it off the fiberglass roof an the aluminum headliner panel. Next, I got 2 packages of 3M molding tape since AC Bill has always had good ideas back when I built a roadster. The molding tape is holding after 12 hours in a hot garage and I'll report back here after more time and after sitting in the HOT sun - today 112. Thanks, AC Bill.

[mikeb75]

Sorry Pete, I didn't see your post for a day. could have saved you some clean up work. Stoked aout the 3M tape! GL!

[jcpresto]

Has anyone tried 3M panel bond? We use to use that on our SEMA cars. I just finished my go kart stage in 818C so u haven't gotten to this yet.

[07FIREBLADE]

Pete are you using any insulation on top of the aluminum/headliner?

[AZPete]

No insulation between the roof and the aluminum panel but I have applied 1/4" closed-cell foam to the aluminum, then wrapped it in vinyl upholstery material.

[AC Bill]

112* in Scottsdale today..yikes..:eek:

I guess AC is a basic requirement for a roadster if you have intentions of driving it in the warmer months. Is this why you sprang for the hardtop..keep the sun off, and the cooler air inside?

How'd the molding tape hold up? Still hanging in there?

[AZPete]

Yup, Bill, the molding tape is still holding. I couldn't drive my roadster from June to September unless early morning or night. With this 818 I planned on a top, soft or hard, from the beginning so I figured out the A/C. I'm 6'3" so I have to fold up like a pocket knife to get in and out with the new hard top mounted. :D

[AZPete]

Another tip: heat the rubber gasket for the inside window! I couldn't even get it into the aluminum opening, the first step, after many attempts. Then, after 2 hours in the hot sun, I was able to get it installed in the first attempt. Use WD-40 and lots of patience, especially in the corners. (estimate: one 6-pack)

[AZPete]

I'm really happy that most of the hard top seams sanded down to disappear! Like Metros did, I carefully sanded and only a few places showed a black line where the gel coat was not deep enough. Here's the worst spot and it can be covered, I think, with the gel coat repair kit.
69653

I'm really happy about the finish, though it took a lot of tedious work. I block sanded with 320, 600, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500 and then used an electric buffer with a foam pad and 3M Marine Finesse-It II Glaze. I learned gel coat finishing techniques from boat sites. I also learned that short-cutting any of the sandpaper grades results in do-overs.

69654

[mikeb75]

Very nice looking results!

My HT was also pretty good re. the seams. I could be less careful since I was covering them, but I had thin spots in about the same area as you show and another closer to the back.

[AZPete]

After six weeks in a hot garage the 3M molding tape is still holding! I'm in the AZ desert so hot means HOT (100+)! Thanks AC Bill. I bought 2 packages of the molding tape at AutoZone and used it all.
69655

EDIT: After 10 weeks it's coming down!! See post #26 below.

[AZPete]

If there is ever a place for a threaded stud, it is at the hard top mount behind the doors. The manual says to drill through the top and use a bolt but I epoxied a threaded stud to the inside so the mount is hidden and there is not a bolt head showing. Now, I'll make a cover for that gap to seal the engine compartment from the passenger area so this mount will be hidden from the inside also.

69656

[Jim Haar]

Pete, looking good, I'll use this thread when I hit that point.
Got the Vintage Air installed and plumbed in drier and condenser.

[AZPete]

Thanks to Jim Haar, I called FFR and they emailed me the latest manual revision: 1Q. This revision has good stuff about the hard top, power windows, inside and outside door handles, etc. If you don't have 1Q call FFR. I also received a box with the Hard Top Update Kit so if you already have the hard top you might be getting this stuff, too.

[turbomacncheese]

Hey AZPete. I live in Maricopa and work in Scottsdale. If you ever want to show off your car, let me know. I'd like to see it.

[AZPete]

Damn, my headliner is coming down! It looked like the 3M 2-sided molding tape was working after 6 weeks but now the aluminum panel is coming down. I prepped the fiberglass top and the aluminum as per the directions, used 2 rolls and the car has been in the garage for 10 weeks now. With the top mounted, not upside down, epoxying the McMaster pieces that Ewingate suggested would be difficult so if there are any other ideas, I'm listening.

[turbomacncheese]

58430

[Jim Haar]

Pete,
Sorry to hear headliner is falling, sounded like it was going to work !
I have heard good things re 3m 1357, have not used it tho....

[Real time recon]

For a headliner....Spray/brush/or roll this.Then paint it what ever color you wish....done !:)
>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Quart-SprayDead-Acoustic-Dampning-Liquid-Vibration-Damping-Sound-Deadener-/182100505689?hash=item2a66093459:g:~k8AAOSwlfxXF~t 5&vxp=mtr

[j.miller]

I turned the top upside down, put 8 3/4 in" blobs of silicone around the edge and a couple in the center and it stuck to the alum/ fiberglass just fine. The only way silicone won't work is if it doesn't cure. I have ran into that before, in most cases the silicone had been exposed to very low temps (freezing). This little car is an intense build to try to keep things tight and right...da Bat

[AZPete]

To make it easier to get the felted molding onto the edge of the door opening, sand down the sharp edge of the fiberglass. This edge will be hidden inside the molding once you get it on, so don't worry about appearance.

Also, if you are looking for rear hatch strut instructions, go to this thread:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?22037-818C-hatch-strut-instructions]
Mikeb75 has done a great job explaining how he mounted his hatch struts.

[j.miller]

Thanks for the deck strut info (get to do that in a couple days) Like you I thinned the edge but still not thrilled with the felts. I was playing around with some bulb seal (same as used for the rear hatch) was worried that there would be to much friction of glass on rubber but found the glass doesn't contact till the last few inches. gonna look on McMaster for something a little wider to cover the 3/4 frame. let cha know...da Bat....btw, these cars a lotta work but I'm almost done! WooooHoooo!

[AZPete]

For the interior window panel, the manual says 2 people are needed but I did it alone easily, and with a cleaner look. My upper panel of the rear firewall (behind the seats) is held with 5 rivnuts along the top so I measured the 5 positions and then marked the 5 locations on the bottom of the window panel. Next, I drilled holes and elongated the holes to 5 vertical slots. With the seats moved forward, I placed the window panel on the rivnut bolts so the top of the panel was below the roof. Next, I raised the window panel up to the roof, checked with a bubble level, and tightened the rivnuts to hold it in place. Then I drilled out the seat belt mount holes and mounted the belts. This method also enabled me to use a clear edge molding for a cleaner look than the fat black bulb seal in the manual. For a photo go up to Post #21.

[AZPete]

Here's what I've learned about the power windows . . . so far. The first window took me about 8 hours and the other window 2 hours. (During that time, Wayne probably built an entire engine, and mowed the lawn!)
Wiring: The manual is clear and detailed so follow it to connect to your wiring system. I thought I'd check my work but wasted time when my continuity checker showed no power to the window motor wires. It turns out that it's a mystery that power reverses somehow so just connect the two wires and the motor will work. Wiring gurus will likely explain this "mystery".

Mount the window mechanism loosely, then check your door alignment. If the door is not mounted perfectly, you'll have problems getting the window right. Make sure that the rear and bottom outside edge of the door is exactly flush with the edge of the side sail. Check the door gap and latch to make sure they are good also. I would have saved a lot of time and aggravation by fixing door alignment first!

The manual says simply, "cut the top of the door", but I learned some stuff by trial-and-error. With the door closed, mark a straight line from the ends of the window gasket. Extend the line 3/8" past the gasket in the front and rear. Next, measure 13.5" back from the front of the straight line and mark the spot. Using something flexible, clamp it at the ends of the straight line, bend it to 3/8" outside at the 13.5" mark, and draw a curved line. This will be the inside surface of the closed window.
60011

For the supplied rubber window seal on the outside, I measured and marked a curved line 3/4" from the previous curved line. I then carefully cut out the space between the two curved lines.
60012

Slide the glass down through the slot into the clamps of the mechanism, then adjust forward/back, in/out until the glass seals against the door gasket. Add the rubber seal to the outside edge of the opening and add stop screws as per manual. My windows now work smoothly and seal well, but I'm still looking for the best way to finish the inside edge of the window opening. I wish had know this before I cut the first door, so hopefully this will help you.

[AZPete]

As you've seen from all the above posts, the headliner is a problem if you try using the aluminum panel, as I did. Someone, but now I forgot who, was successful gluing a soft headliner in place and not using the aluminum panel. I think now FFR may be including a foam-backed piece of fabric so use that or some other soft stuff and not the aluminum panel. Check out a yoga pad for a soft, insulating headliner.

[frankc5r]

I just got my coupe and it came with both the alum piece and a foam backed headliner.
How do u get a smooth headliner without the alum piece??

[mikeb75]

You could try cutting a piece of foam core (poster board) to fit, it should be significantly lighter than the Al. Then glue it to the HT &glue the headliner. That is what i'm considering.

[AZPete]

Foam core is a good idea, Mike.

The roof vents need to be cut open to fit whatever air tubes you will be using. It's easiest to do this when the hard top is upside down. I found that 3-inch flex tubes fit nicely over the roof ducts, so I cut out the hole to the maximum I.D.
66474

[AZPete]

FFR used the same pins & clips to mount the hard top as used for the engine covers of the 818S. I wanted hidden fasteners so I epoxied threaded studs to the underside of the hard top at the back corners, back center and along the sides. At the back corners I made a diagonal steel brace that the threaded stud fastens to. At the sides, I was able the attach to the shock brace and used a 3-inch tab below the quarter window to hold the seam to the side sail.
6647566476
66589

[Blwalker105]

Nicely done, Pete. Very clean looking.

[insurance guy]

I have a few questions about install
How do you secure the aluminum headliner to the top?
Which way does the angled part of the firewall point?
Has anyone installed the gas struts? Can you send pics?
thank you

[BN]

Buff one side of the headliner than apply uratane windshild adthesif

[flynntuna]

Check this thread on the glue used for their dash vinyl .http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?24466-Dash-Pad-Adhesive-Issues-whats-best

[fastzrex]

Like flynntuna suggested, Weldwood adhesive is the way to go. In my days in aircraft maintenance, paint and interiors, we used this product to hold headliners, carpets, repair wood bar structures, etc. It does not 'let go' under heat like other adhesives do; many a headliner in aircraft (where interior temperatures sitting on the ramp in summertime reach 130 degrees) have stayed attached for more than 10 years when this adhesive is used.

It is a contact adhesive; apply (with a spray gun or a small paint brush) to both surfaces for bonding (make sure the surfaces are scuffed with a red Scotchbrite and cleaned with MEK) and let dry until just a bit tacky. I recommend two thin coats for best adhesion. It does tend to thicken when left out in a cup; pour just what you need from the larger can into a cup. If it thickens and you just want it to spread easier, thin it with MEK (about 1 part MEK to 10 parts glue). MEK tends to make it set up faster and will also cause the adhesive to get thicker faster setting in a cup. When we have a large project that will be hand applied with a brush (rather than spraying large surfaces) to small pieces, we cover the cup with a cap and the adhesive generally lasts three days before having to thin.

Weldwood has a strong odor; wear protective gear in well ventilated areas.

The adhesive is generally not real expensive; in fact other spray adhesives I have tried because I ran out of Weldwood are just as expensive, have poor adhesion properties, and have caused me to replace car headliners within a few months as the adhesive just stopped sticking.


67906

[AZPete]

There is a horizontal gap between the hard top A pillar and the door. Hopefully someone here will come up with a solution that will cover this gap from the outside so wind noise will be reduced and rain will be sealed out. Here's a photo of the inside of the gap on the FFR 818C. I think this doesn't look finished and leaves an opening on the outside, but that's me:
68671

Anyone have a better way to seal this gap?

[07FIREBLADE]

All coupes are gonna have that gap because the tops meant to be removable and the way the doors swing out from under the top not away from a surface. I think ffr should provide that aluminum piece with the kit. Maybe instead of installing it horizontally it can be bent 90° downward where it meets the dash. It would be cleaner then having the aluminum exposed covering the dash.

I noticed this last year at the hb show with ffr 818. That's my idea of a solution just haven't implemented it yet. I'll definitely try it prior to paint.

[AZPete]

07FIREBLADE, I don't get what you mean by "that aluminum piece" or bending it 90 degrees downward. Can you please give more detail?
I took a couple of photos to better explain the problem, I hope:

68687
When the door is closed there is about a 3/4" gap on the outside, like the photo on the left. When the door is closed wind noise, and likely rain, comes through that gap. When the door is opened, the top of the door card (interior panel) mostly fills the gap. So, I think a seal of some sort is needed that would attach to the top of the door, thus swing with the door to close the gap from the outside when the door is closed. Anybody know what seal I could use?

[flynntuna]

Isn't that the gap that is there for using the stock Subaru mirrors? Maybe you can build up the door with fiberglass and filler. Then place a gasket on the inside of that filled area and the door card. Just thinking out loud . Good thing it doesn't rain that much in Scottsdale. :rolleyes:

[AZPete]

Good point. The donor mirror fills the gap on a normal by-the-book build.

[07FIREBLADE]

Pete, Factory five filled the gap a bit with a piece of aluminum. That goes over part of the dash. It has the bulb seal on it. They don't provide it with the kit and was a one off item when they built the black coupe a couple of years ago. I saw it at the 2016 HB show. Yes the stock mirrors take up part of the gap with the mount they bolts to the top of the doors. I didn't mention that because I thought it was obvious but forgot you had an early build so you last saw those brackets a few years ago. It would look cleaner if they bent the piece down instead of covering the dash with it.

[07FIREBLADE]

The pic you showed just shows bulb seal. I guess they changed it from last year. It looks a little cleaner bit not much.

[AZPete]

Recently, 2 guys emailed me about how to support the flimsy fiberglass strip on the inside top of the door that remains after cutting the window slot, so I thought I'd add that here. The manual says to add support and it also says to set the window mechanism so that the top edge of the window stops 1/2-inch above the door. I think that is so it doesn't catch on the edge of the slot when it is raised. I made an aluminum piece that supports the fiberglass strip and serves as a guide for the edge of the window so it can be lowered completely, then raised smoothly. . . like "real" cars.

I bought a 2-inch aluminum angle piece, marked one side every inch, drilled 2 holes per inch, then cut each inch with a saw. The aluminum angle piece is now flexible and, to the uncut side, I applied the fuzzy side of 2-inch Velcro tape. Next, I applied epoxy to the bottom of the flimsy strip and clamped the flexible aluminum piece so that it was flush with the curved inside edge of the window slot. Now the fiberglass strip is strong and the window glass glides easily all the way down and back up.

69591

[insurance guy]

your construction techniques are terrific, thanks so much.
I have read the manual multiple times and little or no mention of adding support. I see many references by others and when I look for those references I do not find mention. I have version 1Q
Is this the latest version??

[AZPete]

Alan, I also think the most recent update is 1Q. I thought the manual said to add support, but since you've checked . . . pencil it in. :) Thanks for the kind words. I think it's fun to invent ways to solve these little puzzles!

[frankc5r]

I have a R version which came with car in March
this year, chassis 474

[insurance guy]

I used AZPETE's method but installed the aluminum angle before I cut the door. I drilled 3 small holes at each end of the back edge of the door. 2 at each end and one at the 13.5 inch mark 3/8 towards the middle. Put 3 small nails in the holes and used them as stops for the aluminum angle. Clamped the angle and the bend was exactly how I wanted it. Used epoxy and put clams every 2" ( duct tape will not stick to epoxy so each clamp had a duct tape end). Pulled out the nails before the epoxy cured. Cutting the slot was now extremely easy and it was strong. I used the angle as a guide and ran small grinder bit to make the slot 3/4 of an inch.

[fastzrex]

I used AZPETE's method but installed the aluminum angle before I cut the door. I drilled 3 small holes at each end of the back edge of the door. 2 at each end and one at the 13.5 inch mark 3/8 towards the middle. Put 3 small nails in the holes and used them as stops for the aluminum angle. Clamped the angle and the bend was exactly how I wanted it. Used epoxy and put clams every 2" ( duct tape will not stick to epoxy so each clamp had a duct tape end). Pulled out the nails before the epoxy cured. Cutting the slot was now extremely easy and it was strong. I used the angle as a guide and ran small grinder bit to make the slot 3/4 of an inch.

Great idea as an addition to Pete's construction method. I am not at the door work yet, but have filed this away. Thanks.

[bbjones121]

I used AZPETE's method but installed the aluminum angle before I cut the door. I drilled 3 small holes at each end of the back edge of the door. 2 at each end and one at the 13.5 inch mark 3/8 towards the middle. Put 3 small nails in the holes and used them as stops for the aluminum angle. Clamped the angle and the bend was exactly how I wanted it. Used epoxy and put clams every 2" ( duct tape will not stick to epoxy so each clamp had a duct tape end). Pulled out the nails before the epoxy cured. Cutting the slot was now extremely easy and it was strong. I used the angle as a guide and ran small grinder bit to make the slot 3/4 of an inch.

Did you have to notch the aluminum angle like Pete?

[bbjones121]

Thanks for all this info Pete. I was going to wait until winter to put my hardtop on, but i think I will be getting too much sun in the convertible.

[insurance guy]

yes, the notches allow it to bend tot he curved shape of the window. It is very sturdy, I was sitting in the car ( no inner door card on yet) was resting my arm on the door and it did not move at all.

[AZPete]

Insurance guy Alan was smart to make the bendable aluminum angle first, then clamp and epoxy it to the door before cutting the window slot. He took my idea and improved upon it so now I'm wondering, "why didn't I think of that?" OTOH, this forum is good because we each build upon other's ideas.

[capt. bill]

Hi: I too found the two sided molding tape by 3M to workwell on many applications but as recommended; really clean the surface first. Capt.Bill

[capt. bill]

to AZPete: I agree with you with regards to folding-up like a pocket knife. My 818 was originally driven in NE so the soft top was a must but always struggled with entry/exit. Now in Florida and much prefer no top and carry a tarp if it showers. Capt. Bill

[naigvirr]

Recently, 2 guys emailed me about how to support the flimsy fiberglass strip on the inside top of the door that remains after cutting the window slot, so I thought I'd add that here. The manual says to add support and it also says to set the window mechanism so that the top edge of the window stops 1/2-inch above the door. I think that is so it doesn't catch on the edge of the slot when it is raised. I made an aluminum piece that supports the fiberglass strip and serves as a guide for the edge of the window so it can be lowered completely, then raised smoothly. . . like "real" cars.

I bought a 2-inch aluminum angle piece, marked one side every inch, drilled 2 holes per inch, then cut each inch with a saw. The aluminum angle piece is now flexible and, to the uncut side, I applied the fuzzy side of 2-inch Velcro tape. Next, I applied epoxy to the bottom of the flimsy strip and clamped the flexible aluminum piece so that it was flush with the curved inside edge of the window slot. Now the fiberglass strip is strong and the window glass glides easily all the way down and back up.

69591
Thanks very much for sharing your solution, I just copied your instruction and it's made a huge improvement to the doors.