818R - Challenge Series Car

[Niburu]

The idea of and 818R Challenge series car has been mentioned a few times in several threads.
Personally I think it'd be a great idea, and I know just about everyone that runs NASA Mid Atlantic so I could run the idea by them.
What requirements would everyone like for something like this?

My idea is to do somethings similar to the Roadster Challenge series:
-use the Impreza RS drivetrains to keep the power levels closer and frankly less likely to break than the turbo variants
-set wheel and tire size, probably the stock Impreza RS wheel size
-an optional street package for it
-of course this will require some chassis tweaking and a fuel cell

I can see Jim's eye twitching now.



also

I blame Xabier

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/Sideview-racing.jpg

[Steve91T]

I was just thinking the same thing about using na power. I plan to have a street/track day 818 and a challenge 818.

[crackedcornish]

The idea of and 818R Challenge series car has been mentioned a few times in several threads.
Personally I think it'd be a great idea, and I know just about everyone that runs NASA Mid Atlantic so I could run the idea by them.
What requirements would everyone like for something like this?

My idea is to do somethings similar to the Roadster Challenge series:
-use the Impreza RS drivetrains to keep the power levels closer and frankly less likely to break than the turbo variants
-a set wheel and tire size, probably the stock Impreza RS wheel size
-an optional street package for it
-of course this will require some chassis tweaking and a fuel cell

I can see Jim's eye twitching now.



also

I blame Xabier

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/Sideview-racing.jpg

would love to see a whole field of either xabier's design or this one running around a road course
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/9c0e1920.jpg

[Steve91T]

Or both!

[Martin]

That looks awesome. Good idea to stay stock - evens the playing field

[Ks2]

i mentioned some perks of the N/A drivetrain in another tread but forgot about this one till today when i fueled up, the N/A gets much better gas mileage and doesn't take 91 or 93 octane fuel, so that weekend racer gets a whole heck of alot cheaper since the more modifications the turbo version gets the less fuel economy you have

as for using turbo or RS specifically, the two main differences factory five would have to work around is the intercooler air inlet (or lack there-of) and post turbo exhaust routing, other then that both have the same engine mounts and dimensions, (ignoring the top mount intercooler and extra tubing for the turbo)

overall a race package should be pretty do-able as an extra whether a turbo or non-turbo motor is run

[Horhay]

Fuel economy can be pretty bad on the turbo cars. My buddy's stage 2 STi managed 3mpg during a track day at the Shenandoah circuit. Of course, I've seen mid to high 20s out of my 380whp STi. It all depends on how loud your turbo is being...

[Niburu]

If you're familiar with the Roadster Challenge series one of the main points is to use the same engine at the same power level to make the competiton fair.
It would be WAY easier to do this with non-turbo cars and then there is also the reliability factor.

[D2W]

If you have been following the ongoing discussion about how to save the roadster challenge series the main problems seem to be the high buy in cost, and lack of power available for that cost. The other spec series' they are competing against for racers (like spec miata) has a much lower buy in and cars that are almost as fast. I see the same problems with a series for the 818.

[Steve91T]

Niburu:
I agree. It's very hard to get every single turbo engine to make the exact same boost.
Plus, if the challenge car is n/a, you can make it so light when you don't have to worry about heat,ac,interior, radio, and whatever else you don't need. The challenge car could easily be 150 lbs lighter than a street, turbo version.

I used to track my 91 MR2 Turbo. The only thing I didn't like was the intercooler would heat soak really easily. Then you're pumping hot air into an already hot engine. Now I track a 97 Camaro with a built LT1. It could care less that it's on the track. My dad's Elise is the same way. We've run back to back 25 minute sessions in the hot summer and it doesn't care. The water comes up 6 degrees and stays there, that's it.

After exhaust and intake changes, I'm sure the hp could be bumped from 165 hp to 170ish. That's only 20 hp less than the Elise. And the 818 could weigh 1650-1700 lbs. It should have a similar pull down the straights as an Elise. That's not too bad!

I have no doubt FFR will end up doing a challenge series. I've always wanted to get into a challenge series, but I didn't want to have an old, beat up E30, or a miata. This is right up my alley.

Steve

[Steve91T]

If you have been following the ongoing discussion about how to save the roadster challenge series the main problems seem to be the high buy in cost, and lack of power available for that cost. The other spec series' they are competing against for racers (like spec miata) has a much lower buy in and cars that are almost as fast. I see the same problems with a series for the 818.

I was unaware of the problems with the roadster challenge series. But the problems you mentioned are what turned me off. A stock 5.0 in a Cobra just isn't right to me.

The 818 though is cheap! A spec E30 is going to cost about $10K by the time it's all said and done. Spec Miata's are through the roof because people building the engines to just within legal limits. Plus, it's a Miata. Nothing wrong with them, I just don't want one.

The 818 will cost $15K, it'll be a brand new car that you built, and it'll be one of the fast spec racers you can buy. Nothing will be able to touch it.

I think there would be a line out the door to purchase the kits.

Steve

[D2W]

I was unaware of the problems with the roadster challenge series. But the problems you mentioned are what turned me off. A stock 5.0 in a Cobra just isn't right to me.

The 818 though is cheap! A spec E30 is going to cost about $10K by the time it's all said and done. Spec Miata's are through the roof because people building the engines to just within legal limits. Plus, it's a Miata. Nothing wrong with them, I just don't want one.

The 818 will cost $15K, it'll be a brand new car that you built, and it'll be one of the fast spec racers you can buy. Nothing will be able to touch it.

I think there would be a line out the door to purchase the kits.

Steve

Low car counts are the problem, its no fun to race by yourself and they don't fit competively into any other category in stock form. I think the 818 has the potential to be a cool spec racer, but I see the same problems the roadster has.

[thebeerbaron]

The 818 will cost $15K, it'll be a brand new car that you built, and it'll be one of the fast spec racers you can buy. Nothing will be able to touch it.

I think everyone else has nailed it - $15k will buy you a complete, ready-to-race SM all day long. Sure, if you want to say you have the hottest motor ever, you can add $10k or more to that price, but for that, you've got a caged, ready-to-race car in the largest field at any given race weekend. Sure, it's not called "Spec Pinata" for nothing, but with Mazda's legendary racer support (parts are available to racers direct from Mazda for significantly less than dealer invoice) and a veritable glut of used parts and donors, it's a cheap way to have some thrills. Consumables are laughably cheap to boot.

An 818 will start at $15k and adding a cage and all the "little" things to go racing, like safety equipment, is surprisingly expensive. In a series that doesn't exist yet (for a car that doesn't exist yet). With donors that haven't exactly hit the bottom of the depreciation curve yet. And unknown (at least to me) support from Subaru.

I think that car counts in SM (I'm hearing good things about Spec E30 too) are very tempting for folks just entering racing or on a budget. I don't now what class the 818 would fit in on its own, but if it finds a home and gets a high participation rate, a Spec series would certainly be interesting.

It's hard to start a spec series just by finding a car that would be fun to race.

I'm looking forward to lots of track time in mine, albeit over with the wusses in Time Trials and such.

[Steve91T]

I think everyone else has nailed it - $15k will buy you a complete, ready-to-race SM all day long. Sure, if you want to say you have the hottest motor ever, you can add $10k or more to that price, but for that, you've got a caged, ready-to-race car in the largest field at any given race weekend. Sure, it's not called "Spec Pinata" for nothing, but with Mazda's legendary racer support (parts are available to racers direct from Mazda for significantly less than dealer invoice) and a veritable glut of used parts and donors, it's a cheap way to have some thrills. Consumables are laughably cheap to boot.

An 818 will start at $15k and adding a cage and all the "little" things to go racing, like safety equipment, is surprisingly expensive. In a series that doesn't exist yet (for a car that doesn't exist yet). With donors that haven't exactly hit the bottom of the depreciation curve yet. And unknown (at least to me) support from Subaru.

I think that car counts in SM (I'm hearing good things about Spec E30 too) are very tempting for folks just entering racing or on a budget. I don't now what class the 818 would fit in on its own, but if it finds a home and gets a high participation rate, a Spec series would certainly be interesting.

It's hard to start a spec series just by finding a car that would be fun to race.

I'm looking forward to lots of track time in mine, albeit over with the wusses in Time Trials and such.

I agree with nearly everything you said. What I disagree on is that you have to add all sorts of safety gear. The 818 spec racer would more than likely come with the cage at the very least. Plus, using a cheaper, n/a donor, you'd be able to find a cheaper donor. I'm sure the safety gear would tack on a couple thousand to the kit price, but that should be close to offset by the cheaper donor.

The 818 would be appealing as a spec racer because it's something totally new, looks bad *** (hopefully), and will have the performance damn close to an Elise. That's tough to beat for the price. Racing is expensive, and the having a light car (as you know), means brakes and tires last forever. My Camaro absolutely eats brakes. I can hardly get 2 weekends out of a set of brakes. Brakes alone cost a fortune! Then my 275/45/17 track tires aren't cheap either. The 818, like the miata, won't have these costs.

Let's say a spec 818 costs $20K. A spec Miata costs $15K. For $5K, I would think there would be a lot of people who would rather have a unique car, that they built, with performance that'll make just about any car out there look slow.

E30s are getting old. Miata's are also, unless you want to really spend some money. And the problem with Spec Miata is you are allowed to spend serious money on an engine, which means, it's a race of the fattest wallet. Spec 818 would not necessarily replace the E30's, but new people getting into the sport may lean towards the 818.

Or maybe I think it'll happen because I really want it to happen! :)

Nothing against Miata's BTW. I just can't stand the noise they make! :)

[thebeerbaron]

Let's say a spec 818 costs $20K. A spec Miata costs $15K. For $5K, I would think there would be a lot of people who would rather have a unique car, that they built, with performance that'll make just about any car out there look slow.

I'll give you the price point, but only grudgingly. You say the Spec will come with the cage, but I can't see that happening at the original stated price. Have you priced out a full, honest-to-goodness cage recently? There's your $5k, even before we talk belts, nets, seats, cut-off switches, and the other stuff I'm forgetting.

Uniqueness is where I disagree. Unique cuts two ways - it's fun, but it's also lonely. Not so fun to race against... yourself. Hard to borrow a spare at the last minute. Hard to get setup advice, etc etc. I don't know any history of the evolution of any "spec" series, but I'm guessing it started with cars that proved to be fun, competitive, and common in other classes. I'll narrow my earlier statement to: it's hard to create a competitive class. Ever read the SCCA memoranda about this? Oy...


Nothing against Miata's BTW. I just can't stand the noise they make! :)

Oh gawd, the sound of a full SM field when the green flag waves is terrible. I couldn't agree more. But the car does have a few merits.

Sure, a spec class would be fun, but I think that getting the 818 out there and proving it to be a fun chassis in another, established class is the way to go. Once there's critical mass, then a Spec class would make sense. It'd be great if the same car could easily run both (I'm thinking SSM/SM/SSB/ITA or whatever it is the Miata can do)

[Niburu]

The base kit for a MK4 Roadster is $13K.
The base kit for a Challenge Series racer is $15K

What does that $2k difference get you?

from the FFR site

The Challenge Series cars benefit from the following safety features…

- Complete NASA Approved competition roll cage with side impact bars, mounting for intrusion plates, footbox steel tubing protection and cockpit steel surround structure.
-Low vehicle weight, excellent weight distribution, and low vehicle center of gravity
-3" Simpson brand, full racing H-harness for driver and passenger.
-Externally mounted and shielded competition Fuel Safe brand fuel cell w/fuel pump impact shut-off switch.
-Collapsible steering colum
- Driveshaft safety bars
-Front and rear energy absorbing crush zones.
-Energy absorbing tubular steel frame and aluminum chassis panels (not fiberglass).
-Manufacturing control that maintain high degree of consistency in welding and fabrication.
-Vintage components that are individually FMVSS compliant (ie. lighting, seating material, safety glass etc)


what do you lose?

Doors and a windsheild (unless you opt for the street completion package - still no doors though)

My thought is if the 818 sells as well as we all think it will, then in about 2 years time they could release a Spec-R series car for $2-3K over the base kit.
And just like the the Roadster they can have all the safety features intigrated into the design and convenience features (like doors) removed.
NASA is always up for sponsoring more racing.

Another thing I was planning on, was to build the standard car first (with NA drivetrain out of Impreza RS) and a year or 2 later sell it in lieu of purchasing a Spec series car.

In the meantime I will continue building my 1990 Miata into a racecar.

http://becauseracecar.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/TIRES-WORTH-MORE-THAN-CAR.jpg

[jimgood]

Here we go again.

The 15k build target is never going to happen with a race car.


From the sound of it, this car is getting a custom fuel tank. Is it going to meet competition requirements? If not, what aftermarket tank are you going to use and where will it be located?
I'm betting it won't be designed with a competition legal cage from the start. For example (2011 NASA CCR): "At least two (2) door bars on the driver side and one (1) door bar on the passenger side are required in all vehicles." But, hey, maybe FFR will surprise us and ignore everyone crying about this being a comfy street car with easy ingress/egress (or build two chassis, like the roadster).
With 170 bhp, it will be "slightly faster than a spec Miata". The Challenge Series Roadsters already hold that title. Not that it ever bothered me. I found the car to be plenty fast enough and it looks/sounds 1000 times better than anything on the track.
If you want to argue that, if one builds the car his self, then one can customize the cage and make it legal, etc. Well, you're now cutting out a whole slew of people that either don't have the skills or the means to do that. So, your race fields just shrank by 50% (at least).

[Niburu]

jim you completely missed the point

there is no $15K build target for the Spec 818 car

1. it's called a fuel cell and it'll go in the same location as the gas tank
2. the original MK1 roadster didn't start with full cage yet they manage to do it for the Challenge series car//again this is not going to be a predominantly street used car//doors? what doors? /// yes like the Roadster the 818-R Spec car would have a modified chassis
3. a Spec Miata doesn't have anything near 170bhp
4. not my point at all

[Niburu]

To keep this thread on track lets keep some things in mind;
-we're just exploring the idea of a Spec 818-R
-it will cost more than the standard car
-what drivetrain should strive for NA or FI?
-what other things can we pin down for a spec series?
-yes it's a dumb idea but stranger things have happened
-this all hinges on the success of the original car, so buy one of those first

[Steve91T]

Here we go again.

The 15k build target is never going to happen with a race car.


From the sound of it, this car is getting a custom fuel tank. Is it going to meet competition requirements? If not, what aftermarket tank are you going to use and where will it be located?
I'm betting it won't be designed with a competition legal cage from the start. For example (2011 NASA CCR): "At least two (2) door bars on the driver side and one (1) door bar on the passenger side are required in all vehicles." But, hey, maybe FFR will surprise us and ignore everyone crying about this being a comfy street car with easy ingress/egress (or build two chassis, like the roadster).
With 170 bhp, it will be "slightly faster than a spec Miata". The Challenge Series Roadsters already hold that title. Not that it ever bothered me. I found the car to be plenty fast enough and it looks/sounds 1000 times better than anything on the track.
If you want to argue that, if one builds the car his self, then one can customize the cage and make it legal, etc. Well, you're now cutting out a whole slew of people that either don't have the skills or the means to do that. So, your race fields just shrank by 50% (at least).


Nobody ever said it would cost $15K. I actually said probably more like $20K. Not bad at all for a BRAND NEW RACE CAR!

I'm sorry but you are crazy if you think this thing will be "slightly" faster than a spec Miata. Are you kidding me? A miata is heavier with a whole lot less hp than the 818. The 818 with 170 hp will probably give a stock Elise a run for it's money. An Elise is WAY faster than a Miata.

One thing you said really bothers me. "I found the car to be plenty fast enough and it looks/sounds 1000 times better than anything on the track." Uhh, yeah right!

I agree with everything Niburu has said. There's really nothing to do but wait until a winner is announced, but speculating what may happen in the future is harmless. And I think most people are being pretty realistic. The 818 kit probably isn't going to be ready until maybe the end of the year. Then it's going to take people another year or 3 to get it completed. Nothing is happening quickly! But if this kit takes off, and they start to sell a lot of them, I don't think there's any reason why they couldn't develop a fully ready Spec 818 for under $20K total.

[Niburu]

lord knows Jim Schenck has nothing better to do anyway



someone needs get video of the eye twitch and post it on youtube

[Dave Smith]

I am dying to get thru the open house so that you guys can see the chassis... it is stout and light and thoughts of a race series are natural. This will be a very fast car and very capable to adapt to numerous roles. Jim is making big changes to the Challenge Series (roadster) next year although, this car (818) and its future are wide open... its more a function of timing. As far as dollar amounts go, I think you guys will be surprised with the costs when you look at the "other" parts and consider the race add-ons. Without tipping my hand too much (and the design competition open parameters should have hinted at this), the design is not a single design, but ought to accomodate various and different goals. Think FFR chassis and swatch watch... There I went too far...

[PhyrraM]

Dave......Tsk. Tsk.

We've been throwing out the multiple bodies idea for a while now. Some have even suggested alternate powerplants could be done fairly easily......

Can't wait for open house. Sucks I can be on the east coast and still not make it.....Grr.....

[Dave Smith]

Geez, what kind of crazy person would dream of making a car that could have 2-3 very different body shapes/designs? That's crazy. I don't even know where to start with that first idea. I mean, how could a company come up with three or four different body shapes that all look great?! Why most companies are lucky to ever make one good shape (there's only one pininfarina). They would need a ton of help from a ton of really passionate people who knew cars and who raced, and who designed stuff!

Thinking of it, as long as we're dreaming here, imagine if that person dreamed of not just a few diff shapes, but diff powerplants to serve those shapes the way they were designed to be used!? Perhaps one engine/trans could deliver great horsepower and ultra-performance, maybe another could be similar in architecture, but deliver a bit less power but be super afordable and still fun to drive... Maybe a thrid engine/trans could deliver great mpg in a responsible way, maybe a hybrid or a biodeisel engine like a tdi (didnt we have a tdi-powered car win some race thing and deliver 103 mpg?), way more than present cars! Those powerplants, I spose, could be matched to those body uses to be built for such varied uses like open track use, daily driver use, ultimate aero-mpg efficiency, and mini supercar!?

That's just crazy. Who would ever dream such an auspicious dream. Why you'd have to have like 15 or 20 years car-building experience, you'd need a seasoned crew that had designed cars to design goals successfully numerous times, you'd need an entire community of enthusiasts helping, you'd need the best suppliers, vendors, and technology companies... Shoot, you'd need race series experience and guys who had built your cars and racked up millions of street miles, you'd need resources and cash flow and a million other things. You'd need some time and most of all you'd need a group of guys who were directed by a truely committed visionary rather than someone who just wants to cobble parts together to make money. Why the guy would have to love what he does and be willing to work really cheap or maybe invest all he has into the idea for the simpe love of the idea. That will never happen!

I mean, imagine the hubris in a guy or company that could design a build-it-yourself car that could be so flexible, so affordable. Pure fantasy. For the sake of argument, IF someone was going to try that they would HAVE to at least start with a GREAT chassis... no a truly exceptional chassis (what company could design a great chassis like that in an affordable way? cant be done)...

We are Americans. I took the family down to Washington DC and we visited the air and space museum. I stared at the wright brothers airplane and 15 minutes later took a picture of my son in front of a Saturn V rocket engine. I don't know what we are capable of doing, but I do know that as long as I'm running this company, our reach will always exceed our grasp and we should all be humbled and inspired by the great Americans who have come before us. THEY are whispering to us a challenge.. to continue their legacy. The 818 may not reach all the goals I have for it, but in the effort, I believe we will shock and delight people, as we have for 15 years.

[kach22i]

We are Americans. I took the family down to Washington DC and we visited the air and space museum. I stared at the wright brothers airplane and 15 minutes later took a picture of my son in front of a Saturn V rocket engine. I don't know what we are capable of doing, but I do know that as long as I'm running this company (edit; country), our reach will always exceed our grasp and we should all be humbled and inspired by the great Americans who have come before us. THEY are whispering to us a challenge.. to continue their legacy.

You are either going to run for President (I added that "country" part), or writing a script for a great movie.;)

[Niburu]

You are either going to run for President (I added that "country" part), or writing a script for a great movie.

The crazy guy from Massachusetts has got my vote or at least the movie would be entertaining.

[Oppenheimer]

OK, so how much of that Cat is still left in the bag at this point?

Actually, its apparently several different Cats. Everything from Cheeta to House Cat was stuffed in there, no wonder they are all busting out of the bag early.

So its not just multiple bodies, and its not just multiple powertrains, its all that and multiple purposes as well? You are going to run out of letters to stick on the end of 818 to describe them all...

[kach22i]

New car name.................the Changeling, yep could be another Star Trek reference by me.:cool:

[David Hodgkins]

Geez, what kind of crazy person would dream of making a car that could have 2-3 very different body shapes/designs? That's crazy. I don't even know where to start with that first idea. I mean, how could a company come up with three or four different body shapes that all look great?! Why most companies are lucky to ever make one good shape (there's only one pininfarina). They would need a ton of help from a ton of really passionate people who knew cars and who raced, and who designed stuff!

Thinking of it, as long as we're dreaming here, imagine if that person dreamed of not just a few diff shapes, but diff powerplants to serve those shapes the way they were designed to be used!? Perhaps one engine/trans could deliver great horsepower and ultra-performance, maybe another could be similar in architecture, but deliver a bit less power but be super afordable and still fun to drive... Maybe a thrid engine/trans could deliver great mpg in a responsible way, maybe a hybrid or a biodeisel engine like a tdi (didnt we have a tdi-powered car win some race thing and deliver 103 mpg?), way more than present cars! Those powerplants, I spose, could be matched to those body uses to be built for such varied uses like open track use, daily driver use, ultimate aero-mpg efficiency, and mini supercar!?

That's just crazy. Who would ever dream such an auspicious dream. Why you'd have to have like 15 or 20 years car-building experience, you'd need a seasoned crew that had designed cars to design goals successfully numerous times, you'd need an entire community of enthusiasts helping, you'd need the best suppliers, vendors, and technology companies... Shoot, you'd need race series experience and guys who had built your cars and racked up millions of street miles, you'd need resources and cash flow and a million other things. You'd need some time and most of all you'd need a group of guys who were directed by a truely committed visionary rather than someone who just wants to cobble parts together to make money. Why the guy would have to love what he does and be willing to work really cheap or maybe invest all he has into the idea for the simpe love of the idea. That will never happen!

I mean, imagine the hubris in a guy or company that could design a build-it-yourself car that could be so flexible, so affordable. Pure fantasy. For the sake of argument, IF someone was going to try that they would HAVE to at least start with a GREAT chassis... no a truly exceptional chassis (what company could design a great chassis like that in an affordable way? cant be done)...

We are Americans. I took the family down to Washington DC and we visited the air and space museum. I stared at the wright brothers airplane and 15 minutes later took a picture of my son in front of a Saturn V rocket engine. I don't know what we are capable of doing, but I do know that as long as I'm running this company, our reach will always exceed our grasp and we should all be humbled and inspired by the great Americans who have come before us. THEY are whispering to us a challenge.. to continue their legacy. The 818 may not reach all the goals I have for it, but in the effort, I believe we will shock and delight people, as we have for 15 years.

Post of the day, week and year.

[05xtsy]

Post of the day, week and year.

I agree , +1

[keys2heaven]

Gotta love hypothetical scenarios. If only there was a way to make them reality!

[BrandonDrums]

Geez, what kind of crazy person would dream of making a car that could have 2-3 very different body shapes/designs? That's crazy. I don't even know where to start with that first idea. I mean, how could a company come up with three or four different body shapes that all look great?! Why most companies are lucky to ever make one good shape (there's only one pininfarina). They would need a ton of help from a ton of really passionate people who knew cars and who raced, and who designed stuff!

Thinking of it, as long as we're dreaming here, imagine if that person dreamed of not just a few diff shapes, but diff powerplants to serve those shapes the way they were designed to be used!? Perhaps one engine/trans could deliver great horsepower and ultra-performance, maybe another could be similar in architecture, but deliver a bit less power but be super afordable and still fun to drive... Maybe a thrid engine/trans could deliver great mpg in a responsible way, maybe a hybrid or a biodeisel engine like a tdi (didnt we have a tdi-powered car win some race thing and deliver 103 mpg?), way more than present cars! Those powerplants, I spose, could be matched to those body uses to be built for such varied uses like open track use, daily driver use, ultimate aero-mpg efficiency, and mini supercar!?

That's just crazy. Who would ever dream such an auspicious dream. Why you'd have to have like 15 or 20 years car-building experience, you'd need a seasoned crew that had designed cars to design goals successfully numerous times, you'd need an entire community of enthusiasts helping, you'd need the best suppliers, vendors, and technology companies... Shoot, you'd need race series experience and guys who had built your cars and racked up millions of street miles, you'd need resources and cash flow and a million other things. You'd need some time and most of all you'd need a group of guys who were directed by a truely committed visionary rather than someone who just wants to cobble parts together to make money. Why the guy would have to love what he does and be willing to work really cheap or maybe invest all he has into the idea for the simpe love of the idea. That will never happen!

I mean, imagine the hubris in a guy or company that could design a build-it-yourself car that could be so flexible, so affordable. Pure fantasy. For the sake of argument, IF someone was going to try that they would HAVE to at least start with a GREAT chassis... no a truly exceptional chassis (what company could design a great chassis like that in an affordable way? cant be done)...

We are Americans. I took the family down to Washington DC and we visited the air and space museum. I stared at the wright brothers airplane and 15 minutes later took a picture of my son in front of a Saturn V rocket engine. I don't know what we are capable of doing, but I do know that as long as I'm running this company, our reach will always exceed our grasp and we should all be humbled and inspired by the great Americans who have come before us. THEY are whispering to us a challenge.. to continue their legacy. The 818 may not reach all the goals I have for it, but in the effort, I believe we will shock and delight people, as we have for 15 years.


Man, having been a super heavy subscriber and reader of both the 818 forums here and the Smyth Performance Facebook page, I know exactly what drove your sound off here (aside from the conversation at hand).

Without de-railing this thread and without diving into economics too much, I have to say that you, David Smith are a real leader and visionary and I'm glad you're sticking to your guns here. FFR is the world leader in kit-based performance vehicles because you don't sacrifice quality or value, you put your customers FIRST, you want to build a legacy as much as a company, (each drive eachother as it turns out) and you focus on your products instead of making useless noise in the social community for no reason other than to self-promote.

If you're hinting at what I think you are with your tounge-in-cheek, you're perhaps about to release a product for the kit-car market as revolutionary as...well...as revolutionary as the freaking iPhone (too bad the kit car market isn't as big as the mobile device market).

What prevents so many of us gearheads from building a kit car is almost limited to Looks, Price, complexity and drivetrain choices. If we can make a mid-engined car with looks of our choice at a low price with the drivetrain of our choice then you've eliminated all the reasons one would decide not to build one except for our wives. However, perhaps you can partner with a WAF firm (Wife Approval Factor) like FTD or 1800Flowers or a Spa chain to fix that issue.

Of course, I know it would be impossible to offer too many drivetrain or body style choices, but a modular design allowing FFR the flexibility to offer a pick and choose product brings your business into a potential volume of sales you've never seen before. I know this was meant to be a World Platform, but if you can make the chassis somewhat Universal in allowing multiple drivetrain choices...then you've hit the holy grail for performance enthusiasts. I hope this is the case, I'm so excited I can't stand it.

Do you sell stock?

[BrandonDrums]

You are either going to run for President (I added that "country" part), or writing a script for a great movie.;)

Lol, I agree. Would Dave also be the first Ginger President?!?!

He's got my vote, I want to see an armored 65 coupe in a secret service convoy drive through Pennsylvania Ave one day.

*EDIT

He wouldn't be the first but with G. Washington and Thomas Jefferson on the list, perhaps it's more of an advantage than I previously thought.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_us_presidents_had_red_hair

NOW the question is...Is Dave Left Handed? Seems to be a pseudo-requirement for the Presidency as of late. Reagan, Clinton and Bush Jr. all were.

[keys2heaven]

to building an 818 or a Mk. IV someday is because of Dave Smith and Factory Five. It may be a few years out before I can start on my dream, but there's no other company that I feel deserves my hard-earned money.

The leadership, innovation and vision and involving the community are a few reasons why there really is no other kit car company for me.

You, sir, are building a legacy that will endure.

[jimgood]

Nobody ever said it would cost $15K. I actually said probably more like $20K. Not bad at all for a BRAND NEW RACE CAR!

I'm sorry but you are crazy if you think this thing will be "slightly" faster than a spec Miata. Are you kidding me? A miata is heavier with a whole lot less hp than the 818. The 818 with 170 hp will probably give a stock Elise a run for it's money. An Elise is WAY faster than a Miata.

One thing you said really bothers me. "I found the car to be plenty fast enough and it looks/sounds 1000 times better than anything on the track." Uhh, yeah right!

I agree with everything Niburu has said. There's really nothing to do but wait until a winner is announced, but speculating what may happen in the future is harmless. And I think most people are being pretty realistic. The 818 kit probably isn't going to be ready until maybe the end of the year. Then it's going to take people another year or 3 to get it completed. Nothing is happening quickly! But if this kit takes off, and they start to sell a lot of them, I don't think there's any reason why they couldn't develop a fully ready Spec 818 for under $20K total.

I based the $15k target price on this quote from Steve91T: "The 818 will cost $15K, it'll be a brand new car that you built, and it'll be one of the fast spec racers you can buy. Nothing will be able to touch it."

I only said one thing that bothers you? :p

I based the rest of my response on my limited experience in the current Challenge Series. Ok. I will take back my statement this car will barely be faster than a spec Miata. And I don't know where I got the 170hp from. Chalk it up to poor recollection.

I'm not sure what bothers you about the fact that I think the current Challenge Series Roadster is plenty fast enough and looks/sounds 1000 times better than anything on the track. That means that, if I had the finances, I would rather race the current Challenge Series Roadster than anything else. Seriously. Anything. That's a matter of personal taste. If you offered me the choice between a free <insert your favorite race car here> and a FFR Roadster, the Roadster wins; 5.0 EFI engine and all.

Part of my response is based on the many discussions revolving around the lack of participation in the current Challenge Series and how I think the price point of this new spec racer could create all the same issues. If this thing is seriously fast, like SU fast, racers might flock to it in droves. Who knows? It's a matter of finding enough people willing to plunk down $20-25k for a finished race car OR who have the skills to build it themselves. And, if it doesn't already comply with competition rules (and no one from FFR has said it will) then, it may require some serious rework in order to get it there.

That aside, I know FFR will build a great product. And I really like Dave's hints at a modular platform. That's the smartest thing I've read all day.

[jimgood]

1. it's called a fuel cell and it'll go in the same location as the gas tank


Yes. What fuel cell? And what's the location of the gas tank? I have this to go on...
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?338-Open-Design-Discussion-and-What-s-NEXT!&p=15350&highlight=fuel+tank#post15350

So, what aftermarket, competition legal fuel cell are you going to use?

[Niburu]

Yes. What fuel cell? And what's the location of the gas tank? I have this to go on...
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?338-Open-Design-Discussion-and-What-s-NEXT!&p=15350&highlight=fuel+tank#post15350

So, what aftermarket, competition legal fuel cell are you going to use?

First I'm going to actually wait and see where Factory Five puts everything.
Then depending on where the stock tank goes, a decision can be made wether or not to use that same location or put it somewhere else in the car.

I would most likely purchase a tank from Fuel Safe http://www.fuelsafe.com/ if there is not one provided with the 818-R
(which is what FFR provides with the Roadster Challenge car)

You might wanna stop putting the cart before the horse.

[slopoke]

I could see a 818 Carrera RS with a subie 6 cylinder hot lapping around at the 25 hour Thunderhill race. Oh! Darn! Why did I have to wake up?

[BrandonDrums]

If the 818 was configurable to participate in an existing challenge class, it might be easier to compete with than waiting for a 100% dedicated challenge series.

For the 65 roadster, it's perhaps easier because they've been around for 15 years now and they are based off an iconic racing car.

A 100% net-new design is a lot tougher I bet but in time I'm hoping it can become a reality.

[PhyrraM]

Continuing on Dave's current trend of dropping hints.....

How about a spec series where all the cars DON'T look alike?

[Steve91T]

Continuing on Dave's current trend of dropping hints.....

How about a spec series where all the cars DON'T look alike?

That would be awesome.

[slopoke]

I'm sure the contest has generated dozens of body styles, they would just need to be of similar performance levels with rules to keep them competitive with one another.

[jimgood]

Continuing on Dave's current trend of dropping hints.....

How about a spec series where all the cars DON'T look alike?

Because half the racers would get their undies in a bunch over aerodynamic differences.

[PhyrraM]

Because half the racers would get their undies in a bunch over aerodynamic differences.

How can they make an honest case about aerodynamics if they chose their own style? ;)

[Niburu]

Because half the racers would get their undies in a bunch over aerodynamic differences.


How can they make an honest case about aerodynamics if they chose their own style? ;)
buyers remorse
I think though after a year or two of the regular 818 being out we'll know which is the most aerodynamically sound.
OR
Factory Five will pick for us, since they will no doubt have to modify the body for a spec race class.
OR
The body could be specific to the 818-R (and completely different than any other version) since they got like 700 designs to pull from.

[Steve91T]

It'll all work out. There are many ways to make it even.

You guys worry too much.

[Gollum]

Just putting my .02 in.

Though I don't think anyone has assumed you could build a spec racer 818 for the $15 budget, I'm betting you COULD! There, I've said it.

Even if the kit was $2k more than the base $10k kit, your donor will be at LEAST 2k less. You can find NA subarus for DIRT CHEAP!!! I know being in norcal I'm in subaru city here, and have options up the wahzoo, but I'm sure other people can find deals looking long enough. But just as an example, while a perfectly good condition 01-03 WRX will go for $7k+ on a regular basis, a 01-03 impreza can be had for under $5k on a regular basis! There's at least a $2k or more gap between these cars and if you find one with some issues I'm sure the price drops bellow $3k from time to time. As these cars reach the 10+ year age they will become easier and easier to score deals on.

Now, all that said, to get a fox for a roadster spec racer costs about nothing as well, yet the series isn't the most popular. The problems stated in this thread are still the big issues of course, but I just wanted to show that a spec racer version shouldn't be much, if at all, more expensive to build.

No matter what though, it will always take a hardcore group of core racers to get a series going, so it's really going to depend on the community more than the car itself to get a spec series going.

[Niburu]

I concur, I was also tempted to make the same point about the NA cars being cheaper, but I've gotten jumped on for making other points, I am a little tired of it.
Hopefully the 818 will draw a much bigger and younger group of builders because of the price point.
Builders who wanna go out there and race their cool modern looking cars.

[Senger]

Not that this makes a lick of difference, but all this talk of a Challenge Series got me motivated to put one together for fun. Much of it remains stock with a few suspension and rolling hardware tweaks. The optional fire breathing exhaust is not intended for car show use ;)

But my sentiments are with most when I say that Xabier's design fits the bill perfectly.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2105/5812043251_b875d42f93_z.jpg

[D2W]

Senger, I will admit I didn't care for your design when you first posted, but this fastback spec racer design is cool. Didn't you have one version that also had more fender flare? A truly unique design. Bravo :)

[Senger]

Senger, I will admit I didn't care for your design when you first posted, but this fastback spec racer design is cool. Didn't you have one version that also had more fender flare? A truly unique design. Bravo :)

Thanks D2W. There was a widebody version, but in roadster guise. Much appreciated.

[Niburu]

so apparently fromn what I read yesterday, in a now deleted thread, Dave Smith kinda likes Xabier's 818-R design

[crackedcornish]

so apparently fromn what I read yesterday, in a now deleted thread, Dave Smith kinda likes Xabier's 818-R design

it was mentioned in post #5 of this thread. (it wasn't deleted) maybe you just forgot which thread it was in
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2250-Open-House-Data-Dump

[Niburu]

it was mentioned in post #5 of this thread. (it wasn't deleted) maybe you just forgot which thread it was in
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2250-Open-House-Data-Dump
might have been that thread, but Dave Smith had posted a big reply about the contest
and it's gone now wherever it was
He had directly said numerous things; about having three bodies, diesel hybrid drivetrain, and that he "LOVED" Xabiers design

[crackedcornish]

might have been that thread, but Dave Smith had posted a big reply about the contest
and it's gone now wherever it was
He had directly said numerous things; about having three bodies, diesel hybrid drivetrain, and that he "LOVED" Xabiers design

I didn't see anything directly from Dave, only the post I linked to

Must not have been up very long wherever it was, 'cause I missed it then

[Cooluser23]

That would be awesome.

+1. They look different, but still perform equally. It would be fun for spectators.

[Niburu]

I didn't see anything directly from Dave, only the post I linked to

Must not have been up very long wherever it was, 'cause I missed it then

it was this thread somewhere after post #48 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2238-Project-818-Design-Contest-Winners/page2
people had gotten out of hand with rude comments about some of the designs
Dave stepped in said his piece and let probably way too many cats out of the bag
things were later redacted whilst I slept
but he did write "LOVED" in caps for Xabiers 818-R design
so if that does indeed become our spec car I am sooooooooo plunking my money down

[16g-95gsx]

it was this thread somewhere after post #48 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2238-Project-818-Design-Contest-Winners/page2
people had gotten out of hand with rude comments about some of the designs
Dave stepped in said his piece and let probably way too many cats out of the bag
things were later redacted whilst I slept
but he did write "LOVED" in caps for Xabiers 818-R design
so if that does indeed become our spec car I am sooooooooo plunking my money down

Agreed. While I have complete faith that FFR will make a great looking car, there are only a few designs that I've seen that I would truly be proud to drive around, that being one of them. I have been looking for my next project, and on paper the idea of the 818 is the perfect blank canvas for someone like myself, but I need the body/chassis to be good enough that I can work with it; those are the things that I can't fix in my garage.

[Niburu]

I've seen this idea bandied about again in a few threads with the renewed interest generated by the released "spy" photos.
so through the powers of necromancey I doth revive this thread.

[BipDBo]

Niburu, I think it's a good call. This thread is worth reviving. An international 818 series would be awesome.

I would like to start a list about characteristics that I would like to see in a track car. Admittedly, this is coming from a guy with absolutely no experince in the matter, so take it for what it's worth.
* I would prefer is it is road legal. I would want to drive it to the track and have the satisfaction of doing errands in a race car. Afterall, what's the point of designing a low budget track car, if in order to race it, you need to invest in a heavy duty truck and trailer? Maybe the track ready 818 could even have a hitch to tow a lightweight trailer carrying tools and extra tires. Well, that idea might be dumb. Sound off.
* It's got to be safe, so it needs a good protective cage
* It should have strict rules to limit modifications, keeping all of the cars as equal and affordable as possible
* There were a lot of good points in favor of natural aspiration. NA boxers are very readily available, cheap and durable. Although offering considerably less power than the WRX, 165 hp should be enough to push around an 1800# car for some lively racing. This limit of power is probably actually better for entry level racing because of safety.
* It should have separate, perhaps, foam and plastic bumber/body panels on the front and rear. I wouldn't want to have to replace a large portion of fiberglass evertime I get bumped.
* It should have good aerodynamic downforce, on both the front and rear.

[PhyrraM]

I agree with all but the last point. Well, I don't want *bad* aerodynamics, however I think the races should be designed around speeds that limit vast aerodynamic influences (80ish MPH straights). This leaves all the eventual body-styles open for each competitor to choose. If aerodynamics was to play a huge part, then all the cars would eventually end up being one model. I, personally, find that kind of boring. For example....rally cars Vs. Nascar. Even F1 cars have some variety.

That being said, spec Miata looks like it's pretty successful and fun.

[D2W]

For an 818 challenge series to be successful the car's specs need to be designed around some other class that the 818 can also race with. This is one of the major problems with the roadster spec racers. In a lot of areas there are not enough cars to race just against themselves, and in their current configuration they are not fast enough to compete with the other types of cars in their class.

Spec Miata is very popular, and a reason starting a spec 818 series would be hard. Very inexpensive buy-in, good racing, lots of competitors.

I think one idea to make it work would be to give the 818 enough horsepower to be able to compete side by side with the FFR spec car.

[Silvertop]

I think one idea to make it work would be to give the 818 enough horsepower to be able to compete side by side with the FFR spec car.

Actually, it occurs to me that the 818 wouldn't really need precisely to compete with the FFR Roadster Spec Car -- it just would need to be close enough in performance to safely be on the same track with it. Two classes can race at the same time, but for a different set of points. The increased registration (without necessarily creating a new event) would increase the viability of BOTH classes. A neat idea.

[Dave Smith]

The 818 is designed by Jim S. here at FFR and has alot of racer-capable DNA. The dirty little secret is that the differrence between the street model and a race model (assuming diff bodies) is almost already done. The guys at KONI, Wilwood, and other supliers are already drooling to have those options ready to go. Cage, NASA certification, a spec series, all possible and even likely as Jim cannot think too far from the track. The chassis is measured second most rigid (GTM one) of all ffr chassis and that is with a vehicle weight of 1800 target lbs (and we will NOT miss this target). sorry Ive been away and havent had a chance to stir the pot!:)

[StatGSR]

Well it is your pot to stir so I say go for it Dave!

[ScottKoschwitz]

Because half the racers would get their undies in a bunch over aerodynamic differences.

Bingo. Take a look at the Spec Miata class from its inception as a relatively inexpensive spec class to now. Trust me, it's best to start as close to parity as you can.

[Ks2]

all this talk of N/A engines makes me hopefully the few of us that put a WRX or STI engine in wont be left alone in our own class... this car has the potential to embarrass 50k$+ cars with enough power under the hood and supporting modifications

[Nelff]

Go to an SCCA race and you will see a lot of small trailers with just a truck tool box and a set of race tires on them being pulled by the street legal race car. Just sayin...

[PhyrraM]

There is a difference between a car that can be used A) both on the street and on the track and B) competitively in a spec series. Any 818 can likely be built to do the former. However, if you wish to be competetive it's a safe bet that your 818-R will be track only.

If the spec is eventually to allow turbo motors, then expect the price of entry to climb up, and up, and up....

[Twinspool]

If I wanted a cheap racer, I'd be in Spec E30 right now. My street car is old enough to drive itself now so that's what I'm replacing.

[Draco-REX]

with a vehicle weight of 1800 target lbs (and we will NOT miss this target)
This makes me VERY happy. I'm glad to know that you guys at FFR take the 818/1800 goal seriously. I was a little worried that there would be some bloat and an explanation along the lines of "The spirit of the 818 has always been low weight, and at 2500lbs it's lighter than 99% of the production vehicles out there." Because that wouldn't have flown with me.

So, say the 818-R gets the green-light, spec series or not, how long after the initial model release could we expect the -R? Ballpark. Months, years?

[PhyrraM]

I'm actually wondering why it will even reach 1800 pounds. Unless I'm misssing something in my thinking I really only see about 1600 pounds of hardware.

Some random weights, mostly steel unibodies:

MG Midget/Healy Sprite - 1600 pounds
Lotus Europa - 1500 pounds
Chevy Sprint - 1550 pounds
Ford Pinto - 2000 pounds
Triumph Spitfire - 1600 pounds
original Mini - 1500 pounds
Euro Smart Fortwo - 1600 pounds
Chevy Chevette - 1900 pounds
VW Beetle - 1900 pounds
Birdcage Maserati - 1300 pounds
Noble M12 - 2400 pounds

[Niburu]

There is a difference between a car that can be used A) both on the street and on the track and B) competitively in a spec series. Any 818 can likely be built to do the former. However, if you wish to be competetive it's a safe bet that your 818-R will be track only.....
The way I see it, FFR should offer an 818-R track package, if enough of us buy them AND we can get organized about it then we could petiton NASA to let us have a Spec series.
It shouldn't be on FFR shoulders to make that happen.
I would like to see the track package be street legal if possible, like the Roadster Challenge car where you can build it to be both a track car and a street car if you want too.

[olpro]

I'm actually wondering why it will even reach 1800 pounds. Unless I'm misssing something in my thinking I really only see about 1600 pounds of hardware.

Some random weights, mostly steel unibodies:

MG Midget/Healy Sprite - 1600 pounds
Lotus Europa - 1500 pounds
Chevy Sprint - 1550 pounds
Ford Pinto - 2000 pounds
Triumph Spitfire - 1600 pounds
original Mini - 1500 pounds
Euro Smart Fortwo - 1600 pounds
Chevy Chevette - 1900 pounds
VW Beetle - 1900 pounds
Birdcage Maserati - 1300 pounds
Noble M12 - 2400 pounds
Maybe the ultimate light weight racer, this thing won Pikes Peak in 1964. Largely constructed of titanium, it weighs about 800 lbs. I think the engine put out about a modest 220 hp – more would have been unmanageable.4760

[Dave Smith]

I am not WILD about the name 818 as it was assigned in lieu of actually picking a name. It has grown on me a bit and mostly because it firmly plants the stake in the ground on target weight. Jim and Jesper and the boys know what they are doing and the weight is sooo central to the performance and handling of the car. So, the only time you should get nervous on the weight will be when my posts begin describing the new 918... or we really blow it and pretend that we meant 1800 kg...

[Draco-REX]

I am not WILD about the name 818 as it was assigned in lieu of actually picking a name. It has grown on me a bit and mostly because it firmly plants the stake in the ground on target weight. Jim and Jesper and the boys know what they are doing and the weight is sooo central to the performance and handling of the car. So, the only time you should get nervous on the weight will be when my posts begin describing the new 918... or we really blow it and pretend that we meant 1800 kg...
Would it help things if I promise to ship you guys a beer for every kg *under* 818? ;)

[Draco-REX]

The way I see it, FFR should offer an 818-R track package, if enough of us buy them AND we can get organized about it then we could petiton NASA to let us have a Spec series.
It shouldn't be on FFR shoulders to make that happen.
I would like to see the track package be street legal if possible, like the Roadster Challenge car where you can build it to be both a track car and a street car if you want too.
This is the way I'd like to see it happen. I want any "added lightness" that a track package might bring, plus the improved aero, but I'm not interested in running a spec racer. So giving us a racer first and letting a spec series follow is a win-win in my book.

[Niburu]

Would it help things if I promise to ship you guys a beer for every kg *under* 818? ;)
might I recommend some Bear Republic Racer 5
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XMmfs1xu06U/SoiPPI3RoHI/AAAAAAAAAPA/eR7365H3gF0/s400/racer5_01.JPG
(their Hop Rod Rye and Racer X are pretty good too)

[crobin4]

might I recommend some Bear Republic Racer 5
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XMmfs1xu06U/SoiPPI3RoHI/AAAAAAAAAPA/eR7365H3gF0/s400/racer5_01.JPG
(their Hop Rod Rye and Racer X are pretty good too)

Now you speaka my language!

Haven't seen that stuff here, but I'll be on the lookout.

[Niburu]

Now you speaka my language!

Haven't seen that stuff here, but I'll be on the lookout.
try here http://www.capitolmarket.net/wineandcheese.html
although it may to high ABV for WV
may need to make a run over the border to VA

[crobin4]

try here http://www.capitolmarket.net/wineandcheese.html
although it may to high ABV for WV
may need to make a run over the border to VA

Yep, they are probably the best possibility in my area.:)

May have to make another run for the border, soon.:cool:

[Oppenheimer]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XMmfs1xu06U/SoiPPI3RoHI/AAAAAAAAAPA/eR7365H3gF0/s400/racer5_01.JPG


OK, I really gotta try one of those...

[Niburu]

be warned
it's a serious IPA - very hoppy
it's a big bottle and its 7% ABV - don't go for a drive immediatly afterward

[crobin4]

be warned
it's a serious IPA - very hoppy
it's a big bottle and its 7% ABV - don't go for a drive immediatly afterward

Gotcha, I've been a fan lately of the Great lakes Brewing stuff, and some of their special beers have high APV (7-10).
IPA's have become among my favorites since I've found good ones. I'll be anxious to find this one.

[crobin4]

try here http://www.capitolmarket.net/wineandcheese.html
although it may to high ABV for WV
may need to make a run over the border to VA

Well, I went to the Capitol Market today for lunch. Bear Republic isn't distributed in WV.:mad:
I guess I'll definately have to make run for the border, to find some.:rolleyes:
Oh Well, it's a good enough excuse to put some more fun miles on the new toy.:eek:
A 300 mile beer run?:confused:

[PhyrraM]

....A 300 mile beer run?:confused:

"East-bound and down...
Loaded up and ......."

:D

[crobin4]

"East-bound and down...
Loaded up and ......."

:D

It is perhaps a forgone conclusion that ,if any of us end up working on something somewhere sometime, that when we run out of beer, I may not be the ideal candidate to go on a beer run.:o

[crobin4]

"East-bound and down...
Loaded up and ......."

:D

It does make me wish I bought that black and gold TransAm I passed on buying several years ago.;)

[Draco-REX]

I live in Columbus, OH, but I have family in MA. I visit twice a year, so an 800 mile beer run to drop off those bonus beers is not out of the question.

Remember, one beer for every kg under 818!

That also means that when I get my 818 built I may drive it to FFR. :) I hope the R has a top. ;)

[Niburu]

I live in Columbus, OH, but I have family in MA. I visit twice a year, so an 800 mile beer run to drop off those bonus beers is not out of the question.

Remember, one beer for every kg under 818!

you see that Mr. Smith?
there is now FREE BEER on the line
feel free to work miracles at anytime

[Draco-REX]

So since you guys will have the final design all planned out in your computers, you should package it all up and license it to iRacing.

[Niburu]

So since you guys will have the final design all planned out in your computers, you should package it all up and license it to iRacing.
it would probably make it easy to have some 1:24 scale toys made too
hint hint