MK4 Build questions?

[missin44]

I’m considering a FF MK4 IRS build with 5.0L Coyote. I’ve never attempted anything of this magnitude. I have done engine rebuilds car and motorcycles and not intimidated by build based on my very limited knowledge to this point. I have a few questions to get me started. I’m sure some of you can point out other things I should think about, please feel free to do so. The last thing I want to do is start a build and find out I should have done more research and asked more questions. So here it goes:

1. What’s a realistic price, minus paint I can expect to dish out for a completed build.
2. I have zero interest in any body work or painting, how well to the body pieces come from the factory? IE – fit, finish, etc?
3. My welding skills are limited at best, is there any welding to be done?
4. Is this a straight bolt together kit?
5. How detailed are the wiring instructions?
6. Aside from wrenches, sockets, basic hand tool, drills, engine hoist/stand air compressor are there other must have tools? Tools that would be nice to have but not required?
7. Square footage required? (storage for all the various parts, body panels, plus work area)

Thanks

[Dave Howard]

Hi Missin44,

This is my take on answers to your questions.
1. Cost will vary depending on what options and aftermarket components you decide on. For comparison, my 2012 Coyote MkIV was about $45-50k without paint. That included;
- Complete kit with 3link rear suspension.
- Wiwood brakes (non PB)
- Moser 8.8 rear end.
- Crate Coyote, controls and Tremec TKO 600. Clutch assembly/bell housing as per FFR list of parts.
- Stainless headers
- Gas-N side pipes
- FFR Halibrand 17" rims with Nitto NT555 tires
- Heater kit
- Wiper kit
- Hood hing kit
- Battery. relocate kit
- Fan shroud
- Oil cooler kit
- Leather low back seats
- Heated seat kits
- Vintage gauges
- Aftermarket stereo (I do not recommend a stereo)
- Inside door panels
- Premium soft top
- Drive shaft safety hoop

2 The body pieces have a very good finish but you will need to have body work done. There is a raised seam where pieces have been joined, and the doors, trunk and hood need to be fit ( gapped for the openings).

3 NO welding is required for a basic build.

4. The kit is truly a bolt together if you are not doing any mods. I refer to it as a big Mechno set with a little bit larger instruction book.

5 The wiring details with the Ron Francis harness are very detailed and the harness is specifically designed for this car. The wiring instructions to mate the Coyote controls to the RF harness are also well documented. For me, this required the most concentration and a clear mind while completing. I had no issues. Turned the key and zoom zoom.

6 A pneumatic rivet gun will save you're wrist from carpel tunnel. Tubing bender for brakes and fuel line.

7 I built mine in a 2 car garage. Could be done in a 1 car. The body can sit outside through the winter without any worries. Tarp it and you'll be safe.

[missin44]

Hi Missin44,

This is my take on answers to your questions.
1. Cost will vary depending on what options and aftermarket components you decide on. For comparison, my 2012 Coyote MkIV was about $45-50k without paint. That included;
- Complete kit with 3link rear suspension.
- Wiwood brakes (non PB)
- Moser 8.8 rear end.
- Crate Coyote, controls and Tremec TKO 600. Clutch assembly/bell housing as per FFR list of parts.
- Stainless headers
- Gas-N side pipes
- FFR Halibrand 17" rims with Nitto NT555 tires
- Heater kit
- Wiper kit
- Hood hing kit
- Battery. relocate kit
- Fan shroud
- Oil cooler kit
- Leather low back seats
- Heated seat kits
- Vintage gauges
- Aftermarket stereo (I do not recommend a stereo)
- Inside door panels
- Premium soft top
- Drive shaft safety hoop

2 The body pieces have a very good finish but you will need to have body work done. There is a raised seam where pieces have been joined, and the doors, trunk and hood need to be fit ( gapped for the openings).

3 NO welding is required for a basic build.

4. The kit is truly a bolt together if you are not doing any mods. I refer to it as a big Mechno set with a little bit larger instruction book.

5 The wiring details with the Ron Francis harness are very detailed and the harness is specifically designed for this car. The wiring instructions to mate the Coyote controls to the RF harness are also well documented. For me, this required the most concentration and a clear mind while completing. I had no issues. Turned the key and zoom zoom.

6 A pneumatic rivet gun will save you're wrist from carpel tunnel. Tubing bender for brakes and fuel line.

7 I built mine in a 2 car garage. Could be done in a 1 car. The body can sit outside through the winter without any worries. Tarp it and you'll be safe.

Excellent info thanks! I see you are from Alberta, are you talking Canadian $ or US$, I assume US? FF advertises 250 hr build time, would you say that is accurate? As far as the body work goes, how extensive is it (just trying on getting a handle on what it'll cost me to have it done)?

Thanks

[Gordon Levy]

He's talking US money. Also a Coyote build to do it well will be 500-750hrs to do.

[missin44]

He's talking US money. Also a Coyote build to do it well will be 500-750hrs to do.

Wow, 500-750? why the extra hrs? This assumes the 250 hrs FF uses is accurate.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Don't think I got to $45k all in including $7800 for body & paint. My choices were a little different maybe due to location & intended use. Car is a daily driver except under 40* F (tires get wonkey) or rain (no roof).

Will cut & paste on Dave's List

Finished Car
http://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/acurazine.com-vbulletin/850x566/80-yb3_7a025e7903579baa5f5bfb1fcb4633fb57f5146b.jpg

- Complete kit with 3link rear suspension.
- FFR Brakes, JEGS drilled rotors, Hawk HPS+ Pads (non PB)
- Moser 8.8 rear end. 3:55 LSD

COYOTE WITH BOSS 302 INTAKE & TUNE
http://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/acurazine.com-vbulletin/850x566/80-all_done_86884e1eaffbcfa0f53333e6d6d06eb7a1d1e5e1. jpg

- Crate Coyote, controls and Tremec TKO 600. Clutch assembly/bell housing as per FFR list of parts.
- MOROSO alloy coolant recovery/burp tank
- Stainless headers, J-pipes & sidepipes
- FFR Halibrand 17" rims with Nitto NT555 255/40/17 front NITTO 555R 315/35/17 rear tires
- Fan shroud

COBRA INTERIOR
http://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/acurazine.com-vbulletin/850x566/80-yb1_14956725106dea2d5f5f6a82f0f445667216f25f.jpg
http://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/acurazine.com-vbulletin/850x566/80-int_999058808498b62d59631068f40fac8a780c198d.jpg

- Heater kit with Electric 3rd party water valves for heater
- Leather low back seats
- FFR Gauges
- Aftermarket stereo
- Console for stereo Whitby Kit
- ********** 427 Shifter.
- Inside door panels
- tonneau cover
- Drive shaft safety hoop
- polished 2.5lb Fire Extinguisher (bailout bottle)
- Red normal sized Fire Extinguisher in trunk.
- A number of stamped metal bezels for window & roll bars replaced with billet parts

EXTRA SHEET METAL & GENERAL STUFF

Lucas Tri Bar H4 Conversion Headlights

Drummer Mike's Side Pipe Heat Shields

Mike Everson Under Dash Panel, Roadster Firewall Support, Seatbelt Trim Plates, Roll Bar Trim Rings, Windshield Trim Plates, Dash Steering Hole Trim Plate, Roadster Radiator Aluminum Panel.

MIKES RADIATOR PANEL, COBRA EARLS'S FOOTBOX VENT & CAI INTAKE, LUCAS TRI BAR H4 CONVERSION HEADLIGHTS

http://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/acurazine.com-vbulletin/850x566/80-caif_6bd00dad4e7f08ab265846ae1b046b62f582dd5e.jpg

- Black Plastic inserts in the wheel wells to shield the underside of the fenders from kicked up stones
forgot who I got them from but they were around $225.

Build space 1/2 of oversized 2 car garage. Squares are 12"X12"

http://www.ffcars.com/forums/members/albums/50738-bear-avhistory/bear-avhistory-1226-picture12025-bjs1.jpg

Body stored at daughters house till I took it to the painters
Build time was 13 months. I tried to spend no more than 2 hours a day on the car. More time on Saturdays. Nice thing about my body work/painter, Whitby Motor Cars is they have custom jigs for the FFR roadster & don't need your chassis to do their work. This allows the body/paint & chassis build to go on simultaneously cutting down on calendar time burned. Once we were both done, late November 2014, I trailered the chassis down to Whitby's to have them install the body & windshield on the car. Car was state inspected & plates issued in March 2015.

http://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/acurazine.com-vbulletin/850x566/80-mkiv_plate_mod_39d92727044075785f867bedebb286bbc04 af174.jpg

[j.miller]

36mm socket and a 250-300lbs torque wrench.......most Kragens and AZones have them as rentals or loaner.....so other then a few tools , a good home mechanics tool box should cover it.....da Bat

[edwardb]

I’m considering a FF MK4 IRS build with 5.0L Coyote. I’ve never attempted anything of this magnitude. I have done engine rebuilds car and motorcycles and not intimidated by build based on my very limited knowledge to this point. I have a few questions to get me started. I’m sure some of you can point out other things I should think about, please feel free to do so. The last thing I want to do is start a build and find out I should have done more research and asked more questions. So here it goes:

1. What’s a realistic price, minus paint I can expect to dish out for a completed build. Others are citing numbers, and I agree they are probably in the range you should be thinking about. But I still hesitate without more details about your build plan. There are just so many variables that can affect the budget. Donor or non-donor? What factory options? What rear suspension, wheels, tires, brakes, manual or power steering, what transmission, etc. The list goes on and on. Some of these decisions can affect the total price thousands either way. First order of business is decide how you plan to use the car, and develop a build plan around that. My observation (and experience...) is that most exceed the build budget, but that's a whole other discussion.
2. I have zero interest in any body work or painting, how well to the body pieces come from the factory? IE – fit, finish, etc? The fit of the Mk4 parts is decent. Certainly improved from the past. But still some work to get the body fitted, hinged surfaces hung, all the exterior stuff mounted, etc. The finish is gel-coated fiberglass pulled from the molds and trimmed. Decent enough, but still far from a finished product. There are vendors who will take all the loose pieces and give you a completed and painted car. You just have to pay for it. But make sure it's someone who's done these exact builds before.
3. My welding skills are limited at best, is there any welding to be done? No welding required if a stock build, e.g. no modifications that require welding. I don't weld either.
4. Is this a straight bolt together kit? Here I'm a little concerned with your question. This isn't a large version of a snap-together model car. It's a hand-built custom car. Every one is slightly different given the part choices, options, etc. There will be some surprises and challenges along the way. Are you prepared to deal with that? I've seen guys that were upset because they had to clear powder coat out of holes.
5. How detailed are the wiring instructions? The Ron Francis chassis harness documentation is excellent. The gauge documentation is also very good. Marrying the two together requires some basic understanding of electricity. Adding options to the basic setup requires understanding as well. The Coyote adds a third aspect. Factory Five has excellent documentation for the 2011-2014 Coyote version. They have not yet however provided updated instructions for the 2015-2016 Coyote which has some differences. Maybe by the time you're ready they will. Also there will be some builds completed (like mine...) with the newer version so hopefully we will have it figured out. Electrical wiring is almost always cited as the most challenging aspect of these builds. Personally I don't think it's all that hard. The Roadster has really a very basic electrical setup. But many just don't have the concepts or any experience.
6. Aside from wrenches, sockets, basic hand tool, drills, engine hoist/stand air compressor are there other must have tools? Tools that would be nice to have but not required? Sounds like you have the basics covered. There is a list of tools in the build instructions. I would suggest buying the manual ($10 for an instant download) and studying it thoroughly.
7. Square footage required? (storage for all the various parts, body panels, plus work area). Really what you're comfortable with. I've done three builds in one side of a 2-car garage. But I also have a basement to spill over into, so basically I keep all the parts in the basement until it's time for them to be installed. It's possible to build a body buck and store the body over the chassis while building. I've done that twice. For the third, I'm storing the body off-site. Way better. Outside doesn't hurt them if you can. Not allowed in my neighborhood. Or if you have enough height, they can be hung from the ceiling until needed.

Thanks

My responses above. Regarding your other questions: Personally I think the build time estimates by Factory Five are heavily marketing influenced (!!) and not too realistic for first time builders or those without wrenching experience. That plus I'm not sure how many really "stock" builds there are. Every change or modification adds time. For me personally, I fuss with stuff way too much to build very quickly. As already stated, the main point is to have the time available and make constant progress. You have to be motivated to stay with it. Builds get stalled for lots of reasons, and underestimating the effort and losing interest is one of them. Regarding paint costs, this is widely discussed and not everyone will agree with my answer. But expect $6-7-8K range to have it painted. You'll be on the high side if you deliver all the parts loose and require 100% of the body fitting as well. The price will vary based on the color and options you choose as well as the shop. It's possible for it to be less. It's also possible for it to be way more if you want a high-end show quality paint job. Good luck!

[Jeff Kleiner]

...You'll be on the high side if you deliver all the parts loose and require 100% of the body fitting as well.

I agree with edwardb on every point except this. I'm just as happy to get the bodies completely untouched 'cause there have been occasions where I've spent more hours making corrections than it would have taken me if I was starting from raw.

Good luck!

Jeff

[Duke]

I’m considering a FF MK4 IRS build with 5.0L Coyote. I’ve never attempted anything of this magnitude. I have done engine rebuilds car and motorcycles and not intimidated by build based on my very limited knowledge to this point. I have a few questions to get me started. I’m sure some of you can point out other things I should think about, please feel free to do so. The last thing I want to do is start a build and find out I should have done more research and asked more questions. So here it goes:

1. What’s a realistic price, minus paint I can expect to dish out for a completed build.
2. I have zero interest in any body work or painting, how well to the body pieces come from the factory? IE – fit, finish, etc?
3. My welding skills are limited at best, is there any welding to be done?
4. Is this a straight bolt together kit?
5. How detailed are the wiring instructions?
6. Aside from wrenches, sockets, basic hand tool, drills, engine hoist/stand air compressor are there other must have tools? Tools that would be nice to have but not required?
7. Square footage required? (storage for all the various parts, body panels, plus work area)

Thanks


I was just north of 50K by the time I took delivery on mine. I'm tracking it to the penny and should be 60-65 all in, with me doing body work. All depends on how deep into it you want to go. The little things add up :)
Body and panels are good, but fitment and gaps take some time. Expect 7-10K from a good shop for paint depending on options, speed, and where you live.
No welding needed, but it makes fixing the clutch pedal interference a quick fix if you have a small piece of 3/4" tube to weld.
Yes, bolt together. You may opt to change a few things along the way which may require more tools/material/skill.
Wiring is very detailed. Coyote wiring is also very detailed. It just takes man hours to finish.
Start with the tools you have, then buy as needed.
1 car garage/bay with a large work bench and vice is needed. You'll need equal space for boxes and parts storage.

[edwardb]

I agree with edwardb on every point except this. I'm just as happy to get the bodies completely untouched 'cause there have been occasions where I've spent more hours making corrections than it would have taken me if I was starting from raw.

Good luck!

Jeff

Yea, good point Jeff. I have to share this sort of funny story. On my first build, when I told my painter I wanted to mount the body, fit the panels, etc. then I would give it to him for paint, he said he wouldn't give me an estimate. Not until after I delivered it to him. He said he'd had some DIY'ers that cost him time vs. saving it. Same as what you're saying. When I finally presented it to him, I asked how I did. He said it was "OK" and finally gave me my estimate. He wasn't completely satisfied with some of my gaps, but other than that didn't cost me anything and in fact said I probably saved him a couple days of labor. I was relieved and thankful for the savings. But I had way more than two days in it! Shows the difference between an amateur and a professional.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Just had a thought on the use of "bolt together" that keeps popping up. The words gives me the feeling of quick & easy. The actual sheet metal fitting takes quite a bit of time. There is panel alignment so you can drill some of the 2,000 holes you will need to put it together.

Panels will overlap & have to be positioned marked & drilled. Other panels will not fit no matter what & an air powered nibbler is your friend. The pros may think me a philistine but a rubber mallet is also a very nice tool.

All the riveted panels should be backed by a bonding agent. There is some discussion on what is best that you might want to look into, I use GE clear silicone.

Was rereading the lists this morning. Cleco pliers & pins were missing. I used about 25 or the 1/8th & 6 or so of the 3/16 pins. It is not necessary to fill in every hole with a pin. Just enough to keep the panels in alignment when you rivet them in.

Babbled on a lot about the panels but other than wiring I think you will spend most of your time fitting & installing them.

OH yeah, work gloves. Its good plan not to handle the sheet metal bare handed.

Some differences on what & how to insulate against noise & heat. Have my own thoughts but think I will shut up for awhile. Lots of guys helped me out when I was standing where you are & they really made a difference in getting it built. The COYOTE was still very new & we were creating a lot of ways to get it in that FFR had not thought about yet.

Many of these little fixes & work arounds are now a standard part of the COYOTE option package.

[6t8dart]

I’m considering a FF MK4 IRS build with 5.0L Coyote. I’ve never attempted anything of this magnitude. I have done engine rebuilds car and motorcycles and not intimidated by build based on my very limited knowledge to this point. I have a few questions to get me started. I’m sure some of you can point out other things I should think about, please feel free to do so. The last thing I want to do is start a build and find out I should have done more research and asked more questions. So here it goes:

1. What’s a realistic price, minus paint I can expect to dish out for a completed build.
2. I have zero interest in any body work or painting, how well to the body pieces come from the factory? IE – fit, finish, etc?
3. My welding skills are limited at best, is there any welding to be done?
4. Is this a straight bolt together kit?
5. How detailed are the wiring instructions?
6. Aside from wrenches, sockets, basic hand tool, drills, engine hoist/stand air compressor are there other must have tools? Tools that would be nice to have but not required?
7. Square footage required? (storage for all the various parts, body panels, plus work area)

Thanks

It is possible to build a kit for little money, and in as little as 300 hours, but you will need to lean on used components. I have seen where you can get a F150 coyote 5.0 for pennies, also a used trans and rear will save money. Keep options to a minimum, they add up quick. Also, a straight axle rear is much cheaper. And figure on having someone paint it from the start, budget the money in.

And lastly...the cheapest way to get a 5.0 coyote Roadster, buy one completed.

[missin44]

First off, I have to say a ton of great info, what a great forum! Anyway after reading these posts I'm already thinking of upgrades a different builds.

First, when I say bolt together what I really mean in no welding, I know this isn't a snap together project.

Things to add or didn't post earlier: fuel injection (I live at 7200'), wipers, soft top, A/C (yes i live at 7200', but town is at 4700' and 100 deg in the summer), I hadn't even thought about it but heat would be nice.

I was figuring abut $7k for paint and body.

This is not going to be a track car, I want a great handling road car that's fun to drive in the mountains..

Almost time to start a new thread.

Agreed that buying a completed car is the cheapest, but not as much fun. Still find the right deal you never know.

Bear - that is one sweet ride

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Bear - that is one sweet ride

Thanks very much. The COYOTE will take care of the Fuel Injection. Once its running it will need a tune with or without the BOSS intake. The factory tune on the ECU that comes with the engine is expecting all the parts that are in the box which includes a stock Mustang GT air box & ducts.

The COYOTE uses a short Spectre unit which has different airflow characteristics. Have never lived at altitude but expect that might add a wrinkle that can be tuned for.

[mikeinatlanta]

Time for the less popular opinion. Excepting pros who know all the tricks, cars with 250 hours into the build look like it. You get what you work for.

[Dave Howard]

You're going to love this Coyote if you live in the mountains. I was with a group of 20 Cobra enthusiasts last summer in Whistler, British Columbia. I had the only Coyote (Dyno tuned) power plant. This thing performed as good at sea level as it did at 4,200'. Other cars had a tough time at higher elevations. And, they were constantly on the look out for 94+ octane gas. You can't go wrong with this choice in power plants.

Heat is a must. Especially early in the morning or in the evening. Heated seats are nice as an addition.

My costs were in $US. In 2012, the $C was worth more than the $US. How quickly things can change.

Expect the build to take 2 years minimum.....that's if you're still punching clock at the office.

[dmoran]

Agree 200% on the Clecos - I love those little guys and never heard of them until build school.

Two other things I never expected to use as much as I do is a bench vise and a bench grinder. Hmmmm, and I guess a bench to hold them. There are a lot of parts that need some cleaning up or don't quite fit.

Another thing that has come in really handy are a dozen or so 6" Medium Heavy Duty Spring Clamps I picked up from Amazon pretty cheap. Great to have when you need another hand but not something you want to wait to run out and buy when you need it.

There are many places where an angle drill, maybe air since you have compressor, makes life easier.

I mentioned build school earlier. For me, the ROI on build school has been huge. Walking through the build and assembly was a great asset but even more valuable was being able to see first hand what the kit parts look like vs some of the after market options. During class, I was able to come up with a build plan that feel very comfortable with. It was also a fun 3 days, instructors and other students were all great guys to hang out with. Lot's of been there, done that conversations.

Once I decided that there were a lot of parts I wanted to switch out from the complete kit, I waited for the 50% off options sale that they run often and ordered a base kit with half price options on the things I did want - like the 3-link suspension, etc. Overall build cost is higher than complete kit because of the upgraded components but not nearly as high as it would be if you do a lot of upgrading while building. Read through a few build threads like edwardb's and you will also get the twitch to upgrade components. It is super hard to not blow the budget, especially when your work is looking great and one of the kit components looks a bit... not so great.

Good luck - you are going to love this!
Doug

[GoDadGo]

So far I've found the build to be quite rewarding and what really helped was reading the manual a few times before I got up the nerve to open up the check book. The only things that I have found to be hard is when I've gone "Off The Reservation" and started modifying things to make it my my dream car.

1. Chevy Engine
2. 6 Speed Trans / Hydraulic Clutch
3. Moved Wiring Harness To Passenger Side
4. Build Space Heater For Wife's Side Of The Car
5. Added Footbox Ventilation On Both Side
6. Quick Disconnect Steering Wheel.
7. Adding 200 Watt Infinity Marine Stereo With Polk Marine Speakers & Hid It Well. (Rains A Lot Down Here In NOLA)

All this stuff has put me behind schedule, but the build is still going well and I can't wait.

Do The Research, Read The Manual & Maybe Go To The Build School If You're Still Not Sure!

If I Can Do It, Then So Can You Too!

Good Luck

[missin44]

Thanks, based on what I have read here I'm more than capable of this type of build. For sure it'll take some time and be a bit frustrating at times. At this point I have a pretty good idea how i want it optioned out. Time to start another thread.

Still not 100% committed to this project, I tend to tire kick a long time on stuff like this, then wake up one morning and either green light it or drop it. At this point free time is the biggest issue.