Engine, Transmission and Rear End Choices- Metaphors welcome

[magnum44]

Hello MK4 forum. I've recently discovered FF and this forum and must say how generous in spirit and enthusiasm so many of the posts I've been gendering at as I begin to research the viability of an MK4 build in my future. At 6'3", I had always considered my Cobra dream car out of reach not only financially but also from a fit perspective. Until I disovered the MK4 and all your posts I've read recently encouraging other tall drivers that with some basic mods, and a serious work ethic, my dream car could indeed become a reality with the backing and support of the folks like you who have been there and done that. So thanks. I hope to meet some of you soon on 6/4 at the FF open house and perhaps the nicest among you will allow me to plant my 6'3" frame behind the wheel and into the driver's seat and see what's possible and what the effort is.

I consider myself handy but have never done more that replacing a directional bulb or and oil change in the driveway. I am encouraged that with the buikld course and your support, there could indeed be an MK$ in my garage.

So where to start, It seems much of the first steps seem to be meeting up with local builders. That's my current effort, so question #1 is are there any folks on Long Island that would be willing to take me on a tour of their MK4/3 just to get my feet wet into the experience.

Question2: Engine/Transmission/Rear Ends. I anticipate purchasing a complete kit as I simply don't have the space for the donor but there seems much ado on the forum on horsepower ratings. I must say, my MK4 would be a street cruiser only as I have no track aspirations, at least I think not. I have little knowledge on engine/trans/rear-end choices and what that would mean to someone who simply wants to shuttle around town, taking some casual road trips here and there and enjoying the outdoors in a way only a MK4 owner can. So for fun, I'll ask you folks to do your best to compare engine choices, trans choices and rear end choices in the same way you would to your kids. By way of example: The 306 would equate to Keira Knightley while the Coyote would equate to let's say Kate Upton. Feel free to expand the methaphors however you wish (beyond sex-kittens) to compare the Summit 306 vs 427 vs Coyote5.0 vs Forte 308, Forte 363, Forte 427 vs Forte Coyote and so on. I've learned from the posts that horsepower can be fun (mostly on the track it appears) but also quite lethal and am wondering if a non-track driver like myself would be wasting money on a larger or more pricey engine that I am unlikely to get any real benefit from around own or in countryside, as I intend. Same for trans and rear end, how will the choice impact my non-track driving scenario and what would cause me to choose one over the other, beyond price point?

Looking forward to you responses. Go at it!

Thanks,
Magnum44

[GoDadGo]

From what I understand David Hodgkins is a rather tall fellow and knows how to put big dudes in little cars. (Factory Fives Only)
I'd send him a message because he has a MK-3 that was recently refreshed and may still be for sale.
He's also one of the Managers/Mentors of this website; however, I don't know the gentlemen, only followed his work online.
Check out MKIII #5369 "Refresh" Thread - Undercoating the Rear Wheel Wells and consider sending him a message.

[CraigS]

Welcome to a ton of fun. I'll start w/ eng/trans/diff choices. First let's talk a bit about budget. By far the least expensive is a 302,a T5, and a 355 diff. And that can be a ton of fun. My MkI was that. I guess the other end is something like a Roush 427,TKO600 w/ a Coyote a bit below that in $. Another consideration is your ability and experience. From what you stated, I'd forget a Coyote as they are much more complex especially electrically. A carb engine is the simplest but a slight upgrade in price and difficulty would be a carb looking efi system. Personally I am a big fan of 351Ws. They require different intake and exhaust systems compared to 302 so, if you start w/ a 351, you can always upgrade it later w/o needing to replace intake and exhaust. A nice mild easy to drive 400hp 351 is relatively inexpensive because so many stock internal parts can be used. That also keeps the trans more reasonable as a TKO500 is plenty. And a 308 rear gear can be used since you have enough torque. That could mean no need to change gears in a salvage rear axle if you find the correct unit. You could actually stick a bone stock 351 in your car, drive it for a while, and upgrade the engine later if you want to. One of these is an easy choice.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/power-packages/top-end-kits.shtml
Scroll down a bit to the Ford 351 parts. And notice the hp difference between 302s and 351s. You will want that after a year.

[GoDadGo]

CraigS Makes Many Valid Points!

My build will soon be at the GOKART stage and everything I've done has been to have function follow form. With that being said, my entire project has remains within my skill levels so high tech engines are out of my mechanical reach. Though a lot of simple modifications have been done to make my MK-4 easier to service, everything also needed to be neat and tidy while giving the appearance that it was designed to be that way.

Had I not had an engine and transmission sitting around looking for a home, a 351-W and TKO Trans would have been my first choice. Also, since the 351-W is a bit taller and wider than the 302, it just looks a bit beefier. You can put 302 covers on them and you'll Fool Us Chevy Guys Too!

Good Luck & Welcome To The Fun!

[Gumball]

Just a couple of thoughts from me on your questions.

I have what I refer to as a "freakishly tall torso" that results in my looking like Magilla Gorilla in a little pedal car when it comes to most sports cars. As a result, I'm always looking for the lowest and farthest back seat option I can get. For my FFR, which I built before the "big and tall" seat option was available, I tried two alternatives. First was to remove the cover from the seat cushions and cut the foam in half - which required notching the sides of the foam pad so that it would fit down between the thigh bolsters. This was a good start, but the seat back still kept me too close to the steering wheel. My solution was to replace the FFR seats with a set of Kirkey low-back aluminum race seats with custom leather covers. The covers were made by a local upholstery shop and they look very similar to the original covers. The padding we used is a combination of various medium and high density foams and while we were at it, we added inflatable lumbar support and seat heaters for both the seat and back cushions.

Here are a couple of comparison pics of the different seats - you can see how using the right seat will give you quite a bit more room in the cockpit.... I should also say that these seats have proven really comfortable - with my longest drive to date being over 425 miles in a single day... about 8 hours in the car total that day and no fatigue other than from the wind and exhaust noise.

FFR seat cushion surgery...

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab15/CCRsAC/SeatCushionInstalled.jpg (http://s845.photobucket.com/user/CCRsAC/media/SeatCushionInstalled.jpg.html)

Modified FFR seat in the car.....

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab15/CCRsAC/Stock_zps48a21bbc.jpg (http://s845.photobucket.com/user/CCRsAC/media/Stock_zps48a21bbc.jpg.html)

Modified Kirkey seat in the car - this is slightly different from a standard Kirkey seat in that we cut down the side and thigh bolsters a bit....

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab15/CCRsAC/StockReplacement_zps12622993.jpg (http://s845.photobucket.com/user/CCRsAC/media/StockReplacement_zps12622993.jpg.html)

As for engine choices, I went with a mild 347 that has a carburetor (lots of torque and good sound due to healthy compression and cam), a T5 transmission (for the advantage of overdrive on the highway), and a three-link rear end with 3.27 gears (simple installation, easy set-up, good performance, decent ride, and a good compromise between off-the-line performance and cruising at lower rpms).

My car is a joy to drive - especially around 45 - 55 mph where it will chug along all day at 2200 - 2400 rpm.

[Gumball]

One other thing I'll add is that the ergonomics down in the footwell are a bit of a compromise. In my case, I have to keep my right leg at quite an angle to reach the gas and brake, but I've found that heel-toe footwork is easy if you use more of the side of your foot than in most cars.

As for room and bracing for my left foot, I didn't use a dead pedal, but the frame tubing down there makes a perfect foot rest for me and allows me to stretch out my left leg more than far enough.

I'm using Mustang pedals for the brake and clutch, with a modified Russ Thompson gas pedal - not the Willwood set-up that would come with a complete kit.

[GoDadGo]

Gumball,

I wish FFR would offer a reworked Kirkey seat like you created because they look fantastic.
Please know that I'm only 5'10" and have the big and tall seats and they are great, but Big and Tall I am not.
I think they are missing a huge piece of the market by not catering to those who are far from being vertically challenged.

Steve >> aka: GoDadGo

[Gumball]

Steve - thanks... here's a before and after of the Kirkeys, showing how the sides have been cut down a bit to make them a little more street friendly.

Before -

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab15/CCRsAC/DriverSideKirkey_zps3c403fbd.jpg (http://s845.photobucket.com/user/CCRsAC/media/DriverSideKirkey_zps3c403fbd.jpg.html)

After -

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab15/CCRsAC/ModifiedKirkeyLowBack3_zps9b01c602.jpg (http://s845.photobucket.com/user/CCRsAC/media/ModifiedKirkeyLowBack3_zps9b01c602.jpg.html)

[magnum44]

From what I understand David Hodgkins is a rather tall fellow and knows how to put big dudes in little cars. (Factory Fives Only)
I'd send him a message because he has a MK-3 that was recently refreshed and may still be for sale.
He's also one of the Managers/Mentors of this website; however, I don't know the gentlemen, only followed his work online.
Check out MKIII #5369 "Refresh" Thread - Undercoating the Rear Wheel Wells and consider sending him a message.

Thanks GoDadGo. Will take a look at the thread you provided.

[CraigS]

As Gumball says, the right seat is step #1 in getting you into an FFR. If there is any chance at all at the open house of sitting in a car without a seat, do it. Then think outside of the box and ask yourself what you need in a seat starting from having no seat. The first thing you don't need is to lose 3-4 inches of legroom because the seat back is 3-4 inches thick. This is where the Kirkeys really help. And talk to everyone you can who drove there in a Kirkey. many people think these can't possible be comfortable-they are a race seat. Reality is they are quite comfortable. And the design of the foam and fabric cover makes it very easy to do slight modifications.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I wish FFR would offer a reworked Kirkey seat like you created because they look fantastic.
Please know that I'm only 5'10" and have the big and tall seats and they are great, but Big and Tall I am not.
I think they are missing a huge piece of the market by not catering to those who are far from being vertically challenged.



Steve,
They do:

http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/vintage-race-seat/

http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server1500/6661c/products/325/images/218/coupeseat3__50231.1337633429.1280.1280.jpg?c=2

http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server1500/6661c/products/325/images/216/coupeseat1__24277.1337633405.1280.1280.jpg?c=2

Or you can just go directly to Kirkey:

https://www.kirkeyracing.com/category/Series41V/41V-Series-Vintage-Class-Bucket

Cheers,
Jeff

[Duke]

Steve - thanks... here's a before and after of the Kirkeys, showing how the sides have been cut down a bit to make them a little more street friendly.


Thanks for the idea. I borrowed it as well for my seats. They are currently at the upholstery shop getting foamed and covered. It should be about $1,200 to cover the seats. With the seats, sliders, hardware, and upholstery work I'm just at $2K all in. Something to consider if you go this route.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?19953-8793-MK4-Build-%28-15-IRS-16-Coyote-15-quot-wheels%29/page2

[Dave Howard]

I have to disagree with CraigS comment about the Coyote being complex. The install instructions are VERY complete. So, if you following the instructions (lots of pictures) and pay attention to detail, the Coyote installation is quite easy. And, once installed, it runs like a dream. They are the same engine that's standard in the Mustang GT. They come with a two year warranty and if you're stuck, try your local Ford dealer for some assistance. Cost wise, they are the strongest, most fuel efficient and cheapest 450HP you'll buy in a box.

[hmoody98]

Just an FYI, the last I looked at Summit Racing the TKO500 and 600 were the exact same cost...which seemed a bit a bit crazy to me.

Just looked and thats still the case. Get a TKO600 then (if you go the route of buying a new transmission).

[MPTech]

I built my MK4 with a built 302 (almost 290rwhp), T5, and IRS w/3.55. If my budget were bigger and I was building what I really wanted, it would be a big block 427. Nothing looks or sounds better and torque out the yingyang! I'd still do an IRS again, really like it, but with that much torque I'd probably go with 3.27 gears. Do not go above 3.55s, first gear becomes almost useless. I think a budget and performance compromise would be a small block 427. Whenever a stranger sees my car, the first question is "Is it real?", second question is "Is it a 427?" I'd really like to just say "YES IT IS!".
My third choice would be a 351 or stroked 351. This is probably the best compromise and still plenty of HP.

[edwardb]

I have to disagree with CraigS comment about the Coyote being complex. The install instructions are VERY complete. So, if you following the instructions (lots of pictures) and pay attention to detail, the Coyote installation is quite easy. And, once installed, it runs like a dream. They are the same engine that's standard in the Mustang GT. They come with a two year warranty and if you're stuck, try your local Ford dealer for some assistance. Cost wise, they are the strongest, most fuel efficient and cheapest 450HP you'll buy in a box.

I agree with this statement on both accounts. Regarding value, that's what swung me over on my current build. Not cheap. Value. When comparing the cost for a similar power more traditional crate motor, especially if EFI was added, the Coyote was cheaper. The warranty adds to the value. Regarding complexity, it's kind of a pay me now or pay me later discussion. That's how I answered a PM about the Coyote a couple days ago. There's no question it's a little more work up front to install, especially if you compare to a carb'd installation. But once done, it should just go for a long time. No carb tuning or aftermarket EFI tuning, etc. All the parts are designed to work together from the start. Disclaimer: My Coyote build is nearly installed but not driven yet. I can vouch for the work required to install. The running and driving portion I'm getting from others. But I fully expect my experience will be just as positive as theirs.

[David_Ingermann]

I'd highly recommend the 2015 Mustang IRS, which comes with either 3.31 or 3.73 gears. Go for 3.31 if you want it to be more tame and efficient or 3.73 if you want it to accelerate faster.
I personally opted for a Levy 347 stroker (rated at ~450hp) a T-56 Magnum 6 speed (which will require a fair amount of work to fit but offers same ratios as the tko 5 speeds which fit right in) and the 3.31 rear end ratio.
This combo should be plenty manageable and driveable but also will be quite good at the autocross and track, kind of a pro-touring setup. Kind of like Johnny Depp, can play any part very well.
Don't go above 500 or 550hp or you'll hit Arnold Schwarzenegger status, exclusively super intense and powerful. (AUGH)
Or you could opt for a 300-350hp setup which will be pretty mellow but with a very healthy amount of get up and go. (Oprah maybe?)

[MPTech]

Or you could opt for a 300-350hp setup which will be pretty mellow but with a very healthy amount of get up and go. (Oprah maybe?)

I was in full agreement with you, until your last statement. Oprah??!! Really!? How about Daniel Craig, kinda svelte and understated, but could still kill you. :D

[edwardb]

I'd highly recommend the 2015 Mustang IRS, which comes with either 3.31 or 3.73 gears. Go for 3.31 if you want it to be more tame and efficient or 3.73 if you want it to accelerate faster.

Also comes in 3.55, which is what I chose. The 3.73 version comes with a Torsen locker, and is a lot higher priced. Think almost double.

[GoDadGo]

From the DARK SIDE GUY; you may want to look at the LS3 crate engines.

They've got them in all sorts of configurations including a few that are carbureted with a front drive distributor that looks a lot like a Small Block Ford. At 515-550 HP, plus have a nice warranty, they run between $7,500 and $10,000. Also, these pack a lot of power at minimal weight and size. PACE PERFORMANCE has packages, but you'll be on your own from a fabrication and installation perspective since this isn't a Cookie Cutter and/or Factory Five supported installation.

I choose the 3-Link with 3.73 Gears, because my goal was to stay away from a complex rear suspension set up.

[magnum44]

Welcome to a ton of fun. I'll start w/ eng/trans/diff choices. First let's talk a bit about budget. By far the least expensive is a 302,a T5, and a 355 diff. And that can be a ton of fun. My MkI was that. I guess the other end is something like a Roush 427,TKO600 w/ a Coyote a bit below that in $. Another consideration is your ability and experience. From what you stated, I'd forget a Coyote as they are much more complex especially electrically. A carb engine is the simplest but a slight upgrade in price and difficulty would be a carb looking efi system. Personally I am a big fan of 351Ws. They require different intake and exhaust systems compared to 302 so, if you start w/ a 351, you can always upgrade it later w/o needing to replace intake and exhaust. A nice mild easy to drive 400hp 351 is relatively inexpensive because so many stock internal parts can be used. That also keeps the trans more reasonable as a TKO500 is plenty. And a 308 rear gear can be used since you have enough torque. That could mean no need to change gears in a salvage rear axle if you find the correct unit. You could actually stick a bone stock 351 in your car, drive it for a while, and upgrade the engine later if you want to. One of these is an easy choice.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/power-packages/top-end-kits.shtml
Scroll down a bit to the Ford 351 parts. And notice the hp difference between 302s and 351s. You will want that after a year.

Thanks Craig.
This is the kind of information I was looking for as there seem to be some great choices. Followup question if you please, outside of horsepower, as a weekend cruiser as you get more and more horsepower/larger and more expensive engines, does around town drivability suffer. My wife is my co-pilot so a beast of a setup is not what I am going for. At the same time, I'd hate to realize a year down the road, I chose a 302 and feel underpowered.
Best,
Magnum4

[magnum44]

CraigS Makes Many Valid Points!

My build will soon be at the GOKART stage and everything I've done has been to have function follow form. With that being said, my entire project has remains within my skill levels so high tech engines are out of my mechanical reach. Though a lot of simple modifications have been done to make my MK-4 easier to service, everything also needed to be neat and tidy while giving the appearance that it was designed to be that way.

Had I not had an engine and transmission sitting around looking for a home, a 351-W and TKO Trans would have been my first choice. Also, since the 351-W is a bit taller and wider than the 302, it just looks a bit beefier. You can put 302 covers on them and you'll Fool Us Chevy Guys Too!

Good Luck & Welcome To The Fun!

Can I ask why 351 w/ TKO. What attributes of that combo made that your preference, or asked another way, what was it about the 302 that fell short?
Ty!

[magnum44]

Wow, the work you did looks awesome and thanks so much for the suggestion. Nice to know that between the seats and the footbox, there are options that I can pursue.

I am really appreciative of your comments on engine choices. The way you describe your engine/trans combo was exactly the kind of description I was hoping for as weekend drivability not insance horsepower is my goal. I dont want a beast but a dont want to feel underpowered either. Thanks so much!
Magnum44

[magnum44]

As Gumball says, the right seat is step #1 in getting you into an FFR. If there is any chance at all at the open house of sitting in a car without a seat, do it. Then think outside of the box and ask yourself what you need in a seat starting from having no seat. The first thing you don't need is to lose 3-4 inches of legroom because the seat back is 3-4 inches thick. This is where the Kirkeys really help. And talk to everyone you can who drove there in a Kirkey. many people think these can't possible be comfortable-they are a race seat. Reality is they are quite comfortable. And the design of the foam and fabric cover makes it very easy to do slight modifications.

Will do. Thanks

[magnum44]

I'd highly recommend the 2015 Mustang IRS, which comes with either 3.31 or 3.73 gears. Go for 3.31 if you want it to be more tame and efficient or 3.73 if you want it to accelerate faster.
I personally opted for a Levy 347 stroker (rated at ~450hp) a T-56 Magnum 6 speed (which will require a fair amount of work to fit but offers same ratios as the tko 5 speeds which fit right in) and the 3.31 rear end ratio.
This combo should be plenty manageable and driveable but also will be quite good at the autocross and track, kind of a pro-touring setup. Kind of like Johnny Depp, can play any part very well.
Don't go above 500 or 550hp or you'll hit Arnold Schwarzenegger status, exclusively super intense and powerful. (AUGH)
Or you could opt for a 300-350hp setup which will be pretty mellow but with a very healthy amount of get up and go. (Oprah maybe?)

Now that's a metaphor that makes 100% sense to me. Thanks!!

[GoDadGo]

Can I ask why 351 w/ TKO. What attributes of that combo made that your preference, or asked another way, what was it about the 302 that fell short?
Ty!

I like the way the taller and wider block looks, plus it has a larger displacement. That's all.

[edwardb]

Can I ask why 351 w/ TKO. What attributes of that combo made that your preference, or asked another way, what was it about the 302 that fell short?
Ty!

Some recommend the 351 (CraigS frequently) because they are stronger, make more power than a 302 in stock form, and with not too much modification can go north of 400 hp pretty easily. A 351 stock block also has enough metal to be bored/stroked to 408 CI, and then can make 500 hp+. The most a stock block 302 should be bored/stroked to is 347, and typically fall in the 400-425-450 hp range at that point. Due to the taller deck height, a 351 block is wider and taller. So clearance for things like spark plugs and header bolts gets a little tight. Same thing for intake. Some limits on manifold and air cleaner combinations. All completely manageable and has been done many times before. Just some of the differences.

I would not say the 302 "falls short." A 350 - 400 hp 302 (not hard to do) is very strong in these cars, but does take a little work to get to that power. More power is available. Just add $$$. A 351 can get you to similar power a bit easier. But 302's are very popular for a number of good reasons. I've done two 302 block builds. One a 306 (bored .030 over) stock block and the other a 347 DART aftermarket block. Both are very strong and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend either. The 351 is another option, just not what I chose. But I understand why guys go that way, and (hopefully) my response isn't biased. Not a bad choice either way.