POLL: Add power steering to car for sale?

[David Hodgkins]

Hello all. This poll is to help me determine whether to add power steering to my build that I am preparing to sell. My "prep" (refresh) thread can be found here:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?19913-MKIII-5369-quot-Refresh-quot-Thread-ALMOST-ready-for-the-body

The question is: Should I add power steering to a car I plan to sell? I'm listing a few options but if you have another reason why I should or shouldn't do it, just add a post with your thoughts.

Thanks!

:)

[GoDadGo]

GoDadGo Doesn't Know What He Doesn't Know!

Being a first time builder I was fortunate enough to drive a MK-3 with a manual rack and then a shortly after a MK-4 with power prior to ordering my kit. I can tell you that I really liked the feel of the Non-Power car, but didn't like the fact that the MK-3 required nearly 5 turns lock to lock. The MK-4 was only 2.5 lock to lock and felt twitchy at interstate speeds.

My complete kit has a manual rack that came from Unisteer and is around 3.5 lock to lock so I'm hoping that I will like the feel of the road and will be comfortable at interstate speeds and beyond, but I'm not at the Go-Kart stage yet, but getting very close.

My vote is a manual rack, but GoDadGo doesn't know what he doesn't know, but this is my educated guess.

[Al_C]

Here's the thing: if you add power steering, you will do a great job of documenting it. Then I will have another (and current) discourse on how to do it in my build! So, from a selfish perspective, I think you should add it! :)

[Jeff Kleiner]

It's no secret that I am as big of a power steering cheerleader as you'll find here. When I drive cars without I get out and think "That su...., uh isn't great". With that said though I'd caution you to exercise restraint if you opt to do it or you will not begin to recoup the costs. You can dump a grand into it---or you can do it like I've done on a number of cars I've built and use inexpensive, reliable and easy to find OEM components. Go to Autozone and pick up a 3.0 lock to lock Fox body rack (~$100) and pump (~$60) then combine them with 140 bucks worth of CFR bracket & pulley along with about $100 of hose and fittings from Breeze and you'll heve everything you need except for the proper steering shaft coupling (what you'll need there will vary depending upon whether it's a Mk3 or 3.1; the Mk3 parts are harder to come by). All in you're looking at about $500 plus your effort. Can you recoup that? Maybe, but in the end it will depend on the potential purchaser...

Good luck!

Jeff

[GoDadGo]

here's the thing: If you add power steering, you will do a great job of documenting it. Then i will have another (and current) discourse on how to do it in my build! So, from a selfish perspective, i think you should add it! :)

Love the your thought process!

[GoDadGo]

It's no secret that I am as big of a power steering cheerleader as you'll find here. When I drive cars without I get out and think "That su...., uh isn't great". With that said though I'd caution you to exercise restraint if you opt to do it or you will not begin to recoup the costs. You can dump a grand into it---or you can do it like I've done on a number of cars I've built and use inexpensive, reliable and easy to find OEM components. Go to Autozone and pick up a 3.0 lock to lock Fox body rack (~$100) and pump (~$60) then combine them with 140 bucks worth of CFR bracket & pulley along with about $100 of hose and fittings from Breeze and you'll heve everything you need except for the proper steering shaft coupling (what you'll need there will vary depending upon whether it's a Mk3 or 3.1; the Mk3 parts are harder to come by). All in you're looking at about $500 plus your effort. Can you recoup that? Maybe, but in the end it will depend on the potential purchaser...

Good luck!

Jeff

Jeff, Could a Mini Cooper electric pump save some aggravation and time? Any auto parts store can get them and they are pretty small. Steve

[GoDadGo]

Please see my one and only BLOG from 04/06/2016.

[Bren]

My first reaction to the question was that you should do it if you can do it cheaply (like Jeff mentioned) because most of the buyers out there would prefer power steering. But now I'm thinking that the typical Cobra buyer is going to be someone who just wants to cruise around in it. If it were me, whether the car had power steering or not isn't really that big of a deal. The more important thing is that it's a Cobra replica. While they're not rare, they're not ubiquitous either. If the buyer were spoiled for choice, I'd say go for it. But if the buyer is looking for a Cobra replica, they probably aren't going to be put off just because it doesn't have power steering.

Plus, you can always tell prospective buyers that it's only a couple hundred dollar upgrade for them to do it after they buy the car!

[Jeff Kleiner]

Jeff, Could a Mini Cooper electric pump save some aggravation and time? Any auto parts store can get them and they are pretty small. Steve

I'm sure a Mini Cooper pump could be made to work if you wanted to try a different approach just like someone did here:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/TP%20roll.jpg

In both cases a simple and proven method already exists so I'm not sure why you'd want to try another but hey, if you're up for it knock yourself out :)

Jeff

[CraigS]

Do like Jeff says. I can't imagine anyone deciding not to buy a car because it has power steering. But I can easily imagine someone refusing to but a car w/o it.

[David Hodgkins]

Do like Jeff says. I can't imagine anyone deciding not to buy a car because it has power steering. But I can easily imagine someone refusing to but a car w/o it.

This is what I think the reality is with a low-cost solution. It won't necessarily raise the value, but would attract more buyers.

[frankeeski]

I wish the choices were different, I'll explain. There is an overwhelming (though possibly false) idea that you can only "feel" the road if you have both manual steering and manual brakes. I drove a 68 Mustang with manual brakes and manual steering for years. After I moved to PS & PB in my next car I held on to the Mustang and drove it once in a while. Each time getting back in my Daily Driver I nearly catapulted myself through the front windshield on the first stop. While building my Cobra I knew I wanted not only power brakes with ABS but also power steering. Being very budget minded, I didn't have the resources during the build to do the power steering. The factory Ford bracketry did not lend itself to working under the hood as I expected so I ditched the idea of power steering until a later date. During my recent new motor install I had the money set aside for power steering and did it much like Kliener has outlined above, although I did add a Heidts valve to the system. I too am a big cheerleader for power steering and can't imagine the car with out it now. The time I had to drive with manual steering was miserable on twisty roads and in parking lots. We went on a cruise through the foothills last weekend and I can tell you, I "felt" the road just fine. But if I was in your shoes David, I'd sell the car as-is and then move on to the next one.

[GoDadGo]

I'm sure a Mini Cooper pump could be made to work if you wanted to try a different approach just like someone did here:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/TP%20roll.jpg

In both cases a simple and proven method already exists so I'm not sure why you'd want to try another but hey, if you're up for it knock yourself out :)

Jeff

Thinking outside the box will either lead to innovation or disaster.
Adding power steering to a Cobra Replica may be what many folks need especially helpful for some of us who have smaller stature spouses.
I'm just not a fan of how many cars have such over boosted systems, especially those that were designed many moons ago.
The great part about building a Kit Car is you get to make it your own.
Happy Motoring With Or Without Power Assistance!

[edwardb]

GoDadGo Doesn't Know What He Doesn't Know!

Being a first time builder I was fortunate enough to drive a MK-3 with a manual rack and then a shortly after a MK-4 with power prior to ordering my kit. I can tell you that I really liked the feel of the Non-Power car, but didn't like the fact that the MK-3 required nearly 5 turns lock to lock. The MK-4 was only 2.5 lock to lock and felt twitchy at interstate speeds.

My complete kit has a manual rack that came from Unisteer and is around 3.5 lock to lock so I'm hoping that I will like the feel of the road and will be comfortable at interstate speeds and beyond, but I'm not at the Go-Kart stage yet, but getting very close.

My vote is a manual rack, but GoDadGo doesn't know what he doesn't know, but this is my educated guess.

Too bad your experience with both manual and PS weren't what I would call typical. I've never heard of a 5 turn manual rack and there's no reason for the PS car to be twitchy. Maybe it wasn't set up very well. But also if you're not used to driving one of these it might have felt that way. With the short wheelbase and quick steering, you need to pay attention all the time. Anyway, I'm with Jeff on this one. I'm a huge proponent of PS. I've had both and there's no comparison. The PS is just so much more of a pleasure to drive. Easy parking is a bonus. Having said that, it must be set up properly and not be overboosted. Also I will say for the xx time (I've lost count) PS isn't just about effort. It's also about being able to add more caster to the front end which makes the car track and center up even better.

To David and the poll question, it's a close call. I would probably vote to put it in my hip pocket for bargaining and offer the car as is. Add it if the prospective buyer is willing to pay for it or at least make it worth your while for the final price.

[GoDadGo]

Hey Edwardb,

I'm very comfortable with a short wheel base car because I drive a 1995 C-4 every day and it's 2.5 turns lock to lock and the wheel base is 96.2 inches. What I've hated about this car, for 21 years now, is that the faster you go the easier it is to steer because to me it feels over boosted like most American cars do. Maybe the MK-4 that I drove had very little caster in it, but who knows for sure at this point. All I can say is that I'm glad to say that I'm building a manual rack car.

Regarding the 5 turns lock to lock issue, it must have been an old vendor that FFR used some time in the past because even their assembly video, which features Dangerous Dan Golub, shows the 5 turn bit on his assembly video. That's why I was so thrilled when my kit came in and it was only about 3.5 and not the 5.0 turns lock to lock.

Steve / aka: GoDadGo

[David Hodgkins]

It's no secret that I am as big of a power steering cheerleader as you'll find here. When I drive cars without I get out and think "That su...., uh isn't great". With that said though I'd caution you to exercise restraint if you opt to do it or you will not begin to recoup the costs. You can dump a grand into it---or you can do it like I've done on a number of cars I've built and use inexpensive, reliable and easy to find OEM components. Go to Autozone and pick up a 3.0 lock to lock Fox body rack (~$100) and pump (~$60) then combine them with 140 bucks worth of CFR bracket & pulley along with about $100 of hose and fittings from Breeze and you'll heve everything you need except for the proper steering shaft coupling (what you'll need there will vary depending upon whether it's a Mk3 or 3.1; the Mk3 parts are harder to come by). All in you're looking at about $500 plus your effort. Can you recoup that? Maybe, but in the end it will depend on the potential purchaser...

Good luck!

Jeff

Interesting Poll results. Basically 7 for, 9 against. I'm leaning towards "for", just because it makes for a car with broader appeal. I'd like to explore this further. Will I need rack extenders? I know Breeze has that built into their racks. I'm running fox-body calipers for the Wilwood setup I got from Gordon, what additional bump steer products would you recommend? And where can I find the steering shaft coupling?

:)

[Gumball]

Put me in the against column, but only because I'm an old-school guy. My car is a bare-bones purist version that is pretty period correct. As such, power steering would be out of character. That type of buyer would likely take a pass, but if the car is more of modern interpretation of the classic, then I don't see the addition of power steering (or other conveniences) as something that would hinder the resale.

[David Hodgkins]

Put me in the against column, but only because I'm an old-school guy. My car is a bare-bones purist version that is pretty period correct. As such, power steering would be out of character. That type of buyer would likely take a pass, but if the car is more of modern interpretation of the classic, then I don't see the addition of power steering (or other conveniences) as something that would hinder the resale.

Chris, thanks for chiming in with a valid point. The car is currently manual everything, and I can relate to your feelings about being period correct. I run pin drive wheels and it's guardsman blue paint but it's got a small block EFI motor in it. Maybe offering power steering as a $500 option would be OK, but I want to make sure of what my ALL IN costs are...

:)

[Jeff Kleiner]

Dave,
You'll easily have 500 bucks into the change so if you offer it as a $500 option you will not be paying yourself for the labor of doing it... In my earlier reply I mentioned the rack, pump, bracketry and plumbing and alluded to the steering shaft. I now see your car's FFR number that pegs it as a Mk3, not 3.1. Your steering shaft to rack coupling will look like this:

http://www.ffcars.com/forums/attachments/factory-five-roadsters/46177d1365691137-power-steering-ujoints.jpg

To couple your shaft to the rack you'll need a Unisteer #8050500

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uis-8050500

As to bump steer; rack extenders improve the geometry. With power steering you'll want to go to about 6 to 8 degrees of positive caster (this is a major contributor to the improved straight line stability) which raises the level of steering arm where it connects to the tie rods further improving the geometry. I've never built a PS equipped car that need a bump steer correction kit. Given the vintage of your car if it is aligned with more positive caster you will need longer adjuster sleeves on the front leg of your upper control arms. Read this:

http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/244160-lots-caster-warning.html

Frank mentioned the Heidt's valve for variable assist. I have one on mine so that I can change the boost depending on whether I'm driving on the street, track or autocrossing but for a purely street car it is not really necessary. The amount of assist can be reduced if desired by trimming the pressure relief valve spring in the pump (you just can't adjust it up or down simply by twisting a knob like with the Heidt's).

So there ya' go... Add it all up, factor in your time and make your decision. Good luck!

Jeff

[dmoran]

What about listing the car the way it is now and offer a $900 (make up your own number) upgrade to power steering if they want it. You can always add it later if the manual doesn't sell.